Instinctive Consummator [Archive] - Wizards Community

Instinctive Consummator [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lia The Sun Elf Wizard
04-08-08, 11:57 PM Let's suppose i create a half-giant barbarian and i don't have any psionic class levels, may i use this feat? (instinctive consummator)
To be psionic focused i must have a power point pool (but the text doesn't say i must get a psionic class and half-giants begin with 2 power points which can't be used for some things, but it doesn't say i can't use in this way.). So, can i focus or not?
AntiDjinn
04-09-08, 12:35 AM To get focused you need: At least 1 power point and must spend 1 round making a DC 20 Concentration check. If you have a point, you can get focused. A half-giant barbarian can get focused, but since Concentration is cross-class it won't be easy and may take several rounds (a good Con score helps).

A friend and I crunched some numbers and found that Instinctive Consumator isn't all that impressive. The bottleneck on getting a crit is rolling the threat, which is most dependent on the weapon itself as well as factors such as Keen Edge or Improved Critical. Once you have rolled the threat, backing it up with a normal hit roll isn't all that hard; by the time you have all the prereqs if you are 3/4 or full BAB you probably back it up most of the time.

So look at a specific example: Your 7th level half-giant barb with Con 18 is already focused at the start of combat (make that 6th level barb -- don't forget the LA for the race). You roll a threat on your weapon attack and decide to autoconfirm the crit with Instinctive Consummator. Don't even pick up the dice and roll to see if you would have mad it; it can only break your heart and you don't get to take back your focus or wait to see the roll before you decide whether or not to use the feat. Once the deed is done, what do you do? Soldier on unfocused and just roll normally if you get another threat? Or try to get focused again in case you roll another threat? With max cross-class ranks you get about +8 on the roll, so it will generally take 1-3 rounds to break 20. How many potential crits did you give up while getting focused in combat?
CrimsonDeath
04-09-08, 03:11 AM A friend and I crunched some numbers and found that Instinctive Consumator isn't all that impressive. The bottleneck on getting a crit is rolling the threat, which is most dependent on the weapon itself as well as factors such as Keen Edge or Improved Critical. Once you have rolled the threat, backing it up with a normal hit roll isn't all that hard; by the time you have all the prereqs if you are 3/4 or full BAB you probably back it up most of the time.

Did you distinguish between (for example) a Disciple of Dispater with a Keen Falchion, and a single-class Barbarian with a Thundering Scythe? That falchion is going to threaten several times per combat, maybe a couple of times per round. The scythe may not threaten more than once a day, but when it does it stands a good chance of knocking someone down.

Also, did you take Power Attack and iterative attacks into account? If you happen to roll a 20 on your fourth swing on a full attack, is it worth your focus to confirm (assuming you don't need it for anything else)?
hogarth
04-09-08, 10:46 AM I doubt I'd ever take "Instinctive Consummator" but if I did I'd try to play "Yahtzee" for natural 20s (e.g. rapid-shooting longbows from 1000' away, buying weapon enhancements that go off on a critical/natural 20, etc.), cackling with glee whenever one came up. :)
InkBlot
04-09-08, 01:05 PM Just to put things more plainly --
Let's suppose i create a half-giant barbarian and i don't have any psionic class levels, may i use this feat? (instinctive consummator)
Yes. You can use Instinctive Consummator.
So, can i focus or not?
Yes. You can focus.
AntiDjinn
04-09-08, 01:38 PM Did you distinguish between (for example) a Disciple of Dispater with a Keen Falchion, and a single-class Barbarian with a Thundering Scythe? That falchion is going to threaten several times per combat, maybe a couple of times per round. The scythe may not threaten more than once a day, but when it does it stands a good chance of knocking someone down.

Also, did you take Power Attack and iterative attacks into account? If you happen to roll a 20 on your fourth swing on a full attack, is it worth your focus to confirm (assuming you don't need it for anything else)?
We took mainly BAB, Str, and weapon enhancement bonuses into account: If you have enough of a total attack bonus that you feel you can use Power Attack and still hit more than you miss, then the lack of rolling a threat is preventing more crits than is failing to back up the threats you roll. If your BAB isn't so high, then you are better off spending your focus on Deep Impact which helps you hit in the first place and, if you happen to roll a threat, almost assures you will back it up. About the only time IC comes out ahead is when the threat number on your weapon corresponds with what you need to hit (when you can only hit on a natch 20, for example). Yes, for your last iterative attack this might be the case, but if you have already expended for Deep Impact or Psionic Weapon on a primary attack then the point will be moot. I probably would not hold back on primary attack output in case I need to boost an iterative attack.

Another way to look at it: Deep Impact or Psionic Weapon, your opportunity to use them is on any weapon attack you make while focused. You decide when this opportunity arises since you are deciding to attack and expend. Instinctive Consummator, your opportunity is any attack that rolls a threat while focused. The dice decide when you have the opportunity to use the feat, and you may not be focused at the moment since you couldn't have planned on rolling a threat.
CrimsonDeath
04-09-08, 04:15 PM Hmm... So, additional number crunching might reveal an occasion on which psionic focus is better used on Instinctive Consummator than on Deep Impact or Greater Psionic Weapon. My guess is that such a situation would involve a x4 critical and at least one energy burst-style weapon enhancement, both of which are generally suboptimal strategies.
AntiDjinn
04-09-08, 07:32 PM It might be worthwhile if you have an exceptionally high Str mod, because that is added to additional rolls for crits.

The other feat to compare it to is Greater Psionic Weapon (both GPW and Deep Impact require spending 2 feat slots vs. CI's 3). Examples:

Longsword X2 threatens on 19-20. Normal damage: d8+mods.
On a threat +CI: (d8+mods)+(d8+mods).
GPW, on a normal hit: (d8+mods)+(4d6). Note: Could just miss outright since you have to make the call before the roll.
GPW, and you happen to crit: (d8+mods)+(d8+mods)+(4d6).

Heavy pick X4 threatens on a 20. Normal damage: d6+mods.
On a threat +CI: (d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods).
GPW, on a normal hit: (d6+mods)+(4d6).
GPW, and you happen to crit: (d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+ (4d6).

Mods = direct damage modifiers such as Str and enhancement bonus damage points, all the stuff that does get put through the crit multiplier.
Lia The Sun Elf Wizard
04-09-08, 10:11 PM Talking about barbarians, do you know any good prestige class for barbarians without being the frenzied berserker (prestige class of the complete warrior)?
CrimsonDeath
04-09-08, 10:24 PM Bear Warrior

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lia The Sun Elf Wizard 04-08-08, 11:57 PM	Let's suppose i create a half-giant barbarian and i don't have any psionic class levels, may i use this feat? (instinctive consummator) To be psionic focused i must have a power point pool (but the text doesn't say i must get a psionic class and half-giants begin with 2 power points which can't be used for some things, but it doesn't say i can't use in this way.). So, can i focus or not?
AntiDjinn 04-09-08, 12:35 AM	To get focused you need: At least 1 power point and must spend 1 round making a DC 20 Concentration check. If you have a point, you can get focused. A half-giant barbarian can get focused, but since Concentration is cross-class it won't be easy and may take several rounds (a good Con score helps). A friend and I crunched some numbers and found that Instinctive Consumator isn't all that impressive. The bottleneck on getting a crit is rolling the threat, which is most dependent on the weapon itself as well as factors such as Keen Edge or Improved Critical. Once you have rolled the threat, backing it up with a normal hit roll isn't all that hard; by the time you have all the prereqs if you are 3/4 or full BAB you probably back it up most of the time. So look at a specific example: Your 7th level half-giant barb with Con 18 is already focused at the start of combat (make that 6th level barb -- don't forget the LA for the race). You roll a threat on your weapon attack and decide to autoconfirm the crit with Instinctive Consummator. Don't even pick up the dice and roll to see if you would have mad it; it can only break your heart and you don't get to take back your focus or wait to see the roll before you decide whether or not to use the feat. Once the deed is done, what do you do? Soldier on unfocused and just roll normally if you get another threat? Or try to get focused again in case you roll another threat? With max cross-class ranks you get about +8 on the roll, so it will generally take 1-3 rounds to break 20. How many potential crits did you give up while getting focused in combat?
CrimsonDeath 04-09-08, 03:11 AM	A friend and I crunched some numbers and found that Instinctive Consumator isn't all that impressive. The bottleneck on getting a crit is rolling the threat, which is most dependent on the weapon itself as well as factors such as Keen Edge or Improved Critical. Once you have rolled the threat, backing it up with a normal hit roll isn't all that hard; by the time you have all the prereqs if you are 3/4 or full BAB you probably back it up most of the time. Did you distinguish between (for example) a Disciple of Dispater with a Keen Falchion, and a single-class Barbarian with a Thundering Scythe? That falchion is going to threaten several times per combat, maybe a couple of times per round. The scythe may not threaten more than once a day, but when it does it stands a good chance of knocking someone down. Also, did you take Power Attack and iterative attacks into account? If you happen to roll a 20 on your fourth swing on a full attack, is it worth your focus to confirm (assuming you don't need it for anything else)?
hogarth 04-09-08, 10:46 AM	I doubt I'd ever take "Instinctive Consummator" but if I did I'd try to play "Yahtzee" for natural 20s (e.g. rapid-shooting longbows from 1000' away, buying weapon enhancements that go off on a critical/natural 20, etc.), cackling with glee whenever one came up. :)
InkBlot 04-09-08, 01:05 PM	Just to put things more plainly -- Let's suppose i create a half-giant barbarian and i don't have any psionic class levels, may i use this feat? (instinctive consummator) Yes. You can use Instinctive Consummator. So, can i focus or not? Yes. You can focus.
AntiDjinn 04-09-08, 01:38 PM	Did you distinguish between (for example) a Disciple of Dispater with a Keen Falchion, and a single-class Barbarian with a Thundering Scythe? That falchion is going to threaten several times per combat, maybe a couple of times per round. The scythe may not threaten more than once a day, but when it does it stands a good chance of knocking someone down. Also, did you take Power Attack and iterative attacks into account? If you happen to roll a 20 on your fourth swing on a full attack, is it worth your focus to confirm (assuming you don't need it for anything else)? We took mainly BAB, Str, and weapon enhancement bonuses into account: If you have enough of a total attack bonus that you feel you can use Power Attack and still hit more than you miss, then the lack of rolling a threat is preventing more crits than is failing to back up the threats you roll. If your BAB isn't so high, then you are better off spending your focus on Deep Impact which helps you hit in the first place and, if you happen to roll a threat, almost assures you will back it up. About the only time IC comes out ahead is when the threat number on your weapon corresponds with what you need to hit (when you can only hit on a natch 20, for example). Yes, for your last iterative attack this might be the case, but if you have already expended for Deep Impact or Psionic Weapon on a primary attack then the point will be moot. I probably would not hold back on primary attack output in case I need to boost an iterative attack. Another way to look at it: Deep Impact or Psionic Weapon, your opportunity to use them is on any weapon attack you make while focused. You decide when this opportunity arises since you are deciding to attack and expend. Instinctive Consummator, your opportunity is any attack that rolls a threat while focused. The dice decide when you have the opportunity to use the feat, and you may not be focused at the moment since you couldn't have planned on rolling a threat.
CrimsonDeath 04-09-08, 04:15 PM	Hmm... So, additional number crunching might reveal an occasion on which psionic focus is better used on Instinctive Consummator than on Deep Impact or Greater Psionic Weapon. My guess is that such a situation would involve a x4 critical and at least one energy burst-style weapon enhancement, both of which are generally suboptimal strategies.
AntiDjinn 04-09-08, 07:32 PM	It might be worthwhile if you have an exceptionally high Str mod, because that is added to additional rolls for crits. The other feat to compare it to is Greater Psionic Weapon (both GPW and Deep Impact require spending 2 feat slots vs. CI's 3). Examples: Longsword X2 threatens on 19-20. Normal damage: d8+mods. On a threat +CI: (d8+mods)+(d8+mods). GPW, on a normal hit: (d8+mods)+(4d6). Note: Could just miss outright since you have to make the call before the roll. GPW, and you happen to crit: (d8+mods)+(d8+mods)+(4d6). Heavy pick X4 threatens on a 20. Normal damage: d6+mods. On a threat +CI: (d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods). GPW, on a normal hit: (d6+mods)+(4d6). GPW, and you happen to crit: (d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+(d6+mods)+ (4d6). Mods = direct damage modifiers such as Str and enhancement bonus damage points, all the stuff that does get put through the crit multiplier.
Lia The Sun Elf Wizard 04-09-08, 10:11 PM	Talking about barbarians, do you know any good prestige class for barbarians without being the frenzied berserker (prestige class of the complete warrior)?
CrimsonDeath 04-09-08, 10:24 PM	Bear Warrior