Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 04-23-08, 11:06 PM	I just got done rereading both powers, and it seems to me that the level 1 power/spell Charm is actually far better than the level 4 power/spell Dominate. With Charm you only need to win an opposed Cha check, but with Dominate the target gets a save every time you try to get it to do anything "against it's nature". Anything besides telling it to continue attacking you and continue to listen to it's devoted leader(s) orders would be "against it's nature". Just telling it to obey you is against it's nature. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Deekin 04-23-08, 11:27 PM	No. Charm makes someone your best friend. Dominate makes someone your mind-slave.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-23-08, 11:31 PM	No. Charm makes someone your best friend. Dominate makes someone your mind-slave. With all the ''advantages'' a full-grown mind can think of... (I guess some would allow another save.:D)
celestialkin 04-23-08, 11:31 PM	No. Charm makes someone your best friend. Dominate makes someone your mind-slave. But with Dominate they get another save practically every time you ask them to do something. With all the ''advantages'' a full-grown mind can think of... (I guess some would allow another save.:D) Drop by the Mature Forum if you can. We currently have a thread about just that...
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-23-08, 11:45 PM	But with Dominate they get another save practically every time you ask them to do something. It don't work that way. If you tell the victim to do acts he would do without any grudge normally, he doesn't get any save. Remember: Those saves are only occasions to take back control. The victim has absolutely no power except if a given really order revolts her. Also, Charm, Psionic does not make you control the victim at all. Would you let your friend boss you around all day? That's exactly what the power does. The target becomes your friend. She still has total free will. She just is your friend. Drop by the Mature Forum if you can. We currently have a thread about just that... I'll get there and take a look. It ain't like I'm not used to the Mature's, my best friends used to call me Henjin* all the time after all... *(Weird or freak in japanese.)
celestialkin 04-24-08, 12:06 AM	It don't work that way. If you tell the victim to do acts he would do without any grudge normally, he doesn't get any save. Remember: Those saves are only occasions to take back control. The victim has absolutely no power except if a given really order revolts her. Well, wouldn't obeying obediently someone he just met 10 seconds ago when he and his group was trying to kill said person be against it's nature? Wouldn't ordering an orc fighter to turn on it's fellow tribesmen, leader, and maybe even BBEG/main villain cause a new save each time? Ordering it to fight alongside you against it's former comrades, turn against them mid-battle, rat them out, spy on them (with the sensory input part), or even just aid you or stand by while you go wipe them out? Not much you can make them do.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 04-24-08, 12:23 AM	Well, wouldn't obeying obediently someone he just met 10 seconds ago when he and his group was trying to kill said person be against it's nature? No, because the victim must react to an order. If that order goes against her own behaviour she would have another save. (You would have to explicitly say to the victim she must obey you without forethought, which would be pretty useless anyway. Unless it can really prevent further saves... I might need help on this one.) Wouldn't ordering an orc fighter to turn on it's fellow tribesmen, leader, and maybe even BBEG/main villain cause a new save each time? Ordering it to fight alongside you against it's former comrades, turn against them mid-battle, rat them out, spy on them (with the sensory input part), or even just aid you or stand by while you go wipe them out? Not much you can make them do. All these would let the victim make a new save. But now, I ask you. Would you even have the slightest chance of convincing a new friend to kill its own allies? Psionic Dominate still let you do it, but there are risks.
AntiDjinn 04-24-08, 12:58 AM	Well, wouldn't obeying obediently someone he just met 10 seconds ago when he and his group was trying to kill said person be against it's nature? Wouldn't ordering an orc fighter to turn on it's fellow tribesmen, leader, and maybe even BBEG/main villain cause a new save each time? Ordering it to fight alongside you against it's former comrades, turn against them mid-battle, rat them out, spy on them (with the sensory input part), or even just aid you or stand by while you go wipe them out? Not much you can make them do. He doesn't actually know that you are compelling him to obey. He failed a Will save vs. a mind-affecting power, therefore, he does not know he was affected. So it is only the act itself that is considered for purposes of being against the subject's nature, not the source of the command.
CrimsonDeath 04-24-08, 01:03 AM	But with Dominate they get another save practically every time you ask them to do something. Suppose you Dominate an Orc Barbarian. In general, Orcs like fighting, and Barbarians are pretty good at it. If you tell your Dominated Orc Barbarian to go fight someone, that's well within his nature. Left to his own devices, he'd probably be off fighting someone anyway. Sending him to go carry books for an Elf librarian, though, and he just might get another saving throw. That's pretty much the usual interpretation of the "against its nature" clause.
DracoPhoenix 04-24-08, 10:19 AM	Think of dominate in terms of could they justify the action to themselves. Soldiers tend to follow the orders of their superiors (i.e. you) Paladin's however won't kill an innocent helpless child no matter what arguments are used or who's giving the order. Just because they were in the middle of a fight with you, or they wouldn't normally do it (but not because they find it reprehensible), or because it's you asking doesn't automatically mean they get save every time. Charm on the other hand is the equivalent of asking a favour of your life long best friend. He would probably do a lot, but the bar for rejection is a lot lower.
awaken_D_M_golem 04-24-08, 05:31 PM	Charm Person is directly referenced by Psi-Charm. (treat the target’s attitude as friendly) Diplomacy "Friendly - Wishes you well - Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate" Dominate Person is directly referenced by Psi-Dominate. You can control the actions of any humanoid creature ... you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm Wishes you well Vs. Your wish is my command
Frozen_Flame 04-25-08, 03:45 AM	Wait, if I dominated an orc worrior and commanded him spy in his camp, he wouldn't do it. But if I charmed said orc and asked him to search for traitors and tell me what's happening in the same camp I'd get what I wanted. a.e. It's all goes down on what you do with ether power.
DracoPhoenix 04-25-08, 06:20 AM	Wait, if I dominated an orc worrior and commanded him spy in his camp, he wouldn't do it. But if I charmed said orc and asked him to search for traitors and tell me what's happening in the same camp I'd get what I wanted. a.e. It's all goes down on what you do with ether power. That might have more to do with him not understanding what spying is :P It would also depend on his loyalty to his camp / commander. Failing that, send him back to his camp, telling him to be have normally and then switch to concentration mode, nudging him round the camp. Ok you couldn't necessary see what's going on, but you might be able to use the telepthic link to find out what he's doing, who's saying what etc. Perfect spy - he genuinely isn't doing anything that he wouldn't normally do, but you've got him wandering the camp eavesdropping on command tents etc.
turalisj 04-25-08, 11:54 AM	Well, wouldn't obeying obediently someone he just met 10 seconds ago when he and his group was trying to kill said person be against it's nature? Wouldn't ordering an orc fighter to turn on it's fellow tribesmen, leader, and maybe even BBEG/main villain cause a new save each time? Ordering it to fight alongside you against it's former comrades, turn against them mid-battle, rat them out, spy on them (with the sensory input part), or even just aid you or stand by while you go wipe them out? Not much you can make them do. Then don't take either. :rolleyes:
awaken_D_M_golem 04-25-08, 03:41 PM	I dominated an orc worrior and commanded him spy in his camp you can generally force the subject to perform as you desire, within the limits of its abilities. It might not be very good at spying, but It'll do it. it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities check except those necessary for day-to-day survival It'll still pee in the latrines, even if you tell it to pee on it's (former) commander. ..
DracoPhoenix 04-26-08, 03:42 AM	...It'll still pee in the latrines, even if you tell it to pee on it's (former) commander. This is D&D, he'll pee "off screen" like everyone else. :)
celestialkin 04-26-08, 04:06 AM	Then don't take either. :rolleyes: I have already based an entire character around Dominate, and to some extent Charm and Suggestion. :doh:
Friendlyfish 04-28-08, 05:30 PM	I just got done rereading both powers, and it seems to me that the level 1 power/spell Charm is actually far better than the level 4 power/spell Dominate. With Charm you only need to win an opposed Cha check, but with Dominate the target gets a save every time you try to get it to do anything "against it's nature". Anything besides telling it to continue attacking you and continue to listen to it's devoted leader(s) orders would be "against it's nature". Just telling it to obey you is against it's nature. Am I interpreting this correctly? Pretty much! Dominate is the most badly worded power/spell of all time. I mean, everything you said is true by a strict interpretation of the wording! The spell/power is therefore useless as written. Most tables just have an unspoken pact to not enforce the restrictions to this level of stringency. As is said later in this thread, usually actions which cause "extreme revulsion", like making a paladin have nastytime with his mom, are enough to invoke the re-save clause. If you want to turn orc on orc, that's fair in my book (even though obeying any of your orders is by definition "against his nature"). That said, Charm is a great power, especially with maximized ranks in diplomacy and a couple minutes to work your mojo. Charm takes the subject to "friendly", and then with a good diplomacy roll, to "helpful". Voila! Instant minion. Although he is technically under GM control, he's still there to soak up some pain for the party.
Lycanthromancer 04-28-08, 05:50 PM	Question is, what would be a good way to word psionic dominate to make it useful? Should I reword it to make it "The subject's attitude towards becomes fanatic"? Then it could be a buff, too! Of course, I'd have to allow for some sort of save vs revulsion, or something. ...My version of psi dominate still sucks. Help me! :weep:
Bauglir 04-28-08, 07:11 PM	How about, "The subject gets an additional save if ordered to do something it finds abhorrent; a Paladin would get a save to resist murdering the inhabitants of an orphanage (unless convinced that the children were all disguised fiends or something), while a truly miserly merchant might get a save if asked to give the caster something extremely valuable for free. Merely obeying the caster never grants an additional save, and the act must be something the character would never, under any circumstances, voluntarily do for anyone (including the target itself)." Swap manifester for caster where appropriate? You could, of course, command the Paladin to find you trustworthy and then explain your "evidence" for the orphans being fiends, but that would at least require a small Bluff check to come up with something plausible enough for a Paladin, who won't carry out such an action on word of mouth alone, no matter how trustworthy the source.
Lycanthromancer 04-28-08, 07:52 PM	Alrighty. That sounds much better. What about the 'fanatic' part? Could be useful, but isn't powerful enough for a separate augment, I think. Maybe a negative augment, though...
CrimsonDeath 04-28-08, 09:16 PM	Dominate is the most badly worded power/spell of all time. Have you ever read Ebon Eyes from the Spell Compendium?
turalisj 04-28-08, 09:38 PM	So.. it lets you see in normal and magical darknes, but doesn't grant it at the same time?