Is one 3rd level power = to two first level powers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is one 3rd level power = to two first level powers? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sarmoon
04-15-08, 07:52 PM All,
I'm inquiring about the option to select two first level powers over one third level power when gaining a new level. A second option would be to research a new power that in some fashion incorporates both 1st level powers into once (e.g. Biofeedback and Thicken Skin).

The response I got last time around was you could augment a 1st level power and it's as good as a third so it wasn't felt by some that this was feasible. This is purely untrue. As an example, look at biofeedback versus Inertial barrier. BF is DR 2/- and IB is 5/-. To get BF to 5/- you'd need to spend 13 PP's to get the same benefit as the 7 you would spend on IB. As a side kicker to IB you take half damage from falls. Still think they're equal?

So, is there a proposal maybe for spell casters that might be translatable to this situation? Maybe a feat suggestion here?

If not, then my question is how fair is it to combine two powers into one as a researched power using the scale that the effective power needs to double in scale (e.g. two 1st powers = 3rd, two 2nd = 4th, two 3rd = 6th, etc.) Lastly, if this were feasible, would power point augments of the two powers affect both powers. Here's an example I'm thinking of ...

Skin of the Celestial (Thicken skin + Biofeedback)
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic Warrior 3
Display: Material and Olfactory
Manifesting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level
Power Points: 5

Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +2 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 3/-. (NOTE: a combined power at a higher level should pass along a PP savings TS +3 = 7 PP and BF 3/- is 4 PP so the savings is 6 PP's - roughly same scale as BF to Inertial Barrier above which is 7 to 13).

Augment: For each additional 3 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1

Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2

Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action.
calronmoonflower
04-15-08, 10:01 PM All,
I'm inquiring about the option to select two first level powers over one third level power when gaining a new level.

No option exists like that in the Rules As Written.

A second option would be to research a new power that in some fashion incorporates both 1st level powers into once (e.g. Biofeedback and Thicken Skin).

The effect would be more powerful than using Quicken Power or Linked Power. The cost increase should be high to reflect this.

However, in the end the dungeon master must approve the power.

Skin of the Celestial (Thicken skin + Biofeedback)
Psychometabolism
Level: Psychic Warrior 3
Display: Material and Olfactory
Manifesting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level
Power Points: 5

Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +2 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 3/-. (NOTE: a combined power at a higher level should pass along a PP savings TS +3 = 7 PP and BF 3/- is 4 PP so the savings is 6 PP's - roughly same scale as BF to Inertial Barrier above which is 7 to 13).

Augment: For each additional 3 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1

Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2

Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action.

The power should cost more than it does as you are essentially gaining a free power by learning it and getting a free manifestation when you use it.

I'd say at least it would be a 4th level power.

Also the first augment needs to be split into 2 parts or cost more, say 4. As it is at higher levels you can get the effects cheaper and quicker through this augmentation than paying for both powers separate. A two for one augment with an base increase of 2 (or even my suggested 4) power points is too much.

The rest of the augments look alright though.
DracoPhoenix
04-17-08, 06:47 AM Sadly the 2 for 1 is out - which is a pain in later levels when you look at the range of L9 powers available. Talk to your DM about making the Max power level known / level into # power levels to "spend".

E.g. you could get 3 L3 (Or 2 L4s + 1 L1) powers for 1 L9 power.

I think the research is definitely going to be DM territory too. All too easy to munchkin these spells - 5 pp for +4 AC and +4 shield? (+8 Total) is a steal, though the augmenting would be stunted (you would have to pay combined or separately for the augments of each - so you probably couldn't max both powers).

That said, if you get the Spell level spend points, pack link power and you have a similar effect (you'll get more spells too).
sarmoon
04-17-08, 07:55 PM With version 4.0 coming out I suppose I won't hold my breath for errata to add on to the RAW for 3.5.

Anyhow, I suppose the next best option is 1 of 2.

1st - Have a house rule that allows you to split up a level 3 power gained into 3 1st level, 2 1st & 1 2nd, or one 3rd power as suggested. Not a bad option.

2nd - Work out a new power. To add to my earlier outlook on the "skin of the celestial", I think it's important to realize the powers I've combined have different effects that DO NOT stack as that would clearly be min/max and should be thrown out (such as +4 and +4 to AC). So, as guidelines go, I think that would need to be rule #1. Second piece would be to work out the augments. Would the augments pass on a savings for both powers at a higher level or would they be equivalent, or even cost more. Here is a more polished entry, perhaps ...

Skin of the Celestial
Psycho metabolism
Level: Psychic Warrior 3
Display: Material and Olfactory
Manifesting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level
Power Points: 5

Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +3 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 2/-.

Augment: For each additional 4 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1.

Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2 but duration is decreased to 1 min per level.

Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action.

Rationale: Normal power costs for BF and TS would add up to 8 PP's if used separately. The 3rd level power costs 5 PP's (a savings at higher level). Augmenting is rationed down to 4PP's for 3rd power to 6 for 1st (33% savings). Special Fast healing augment powered down by decreasing duration to 1 min/level.
The_Ditto
04-17-08, 09:22 PM As an example, look at biofeedback versus Inertial barrier. BF is DR 2/- and IB is 5/-. To get BF to 5/- you'd need to spend 13 PP's to get the same benefit as the 7 you would spend on IB. As a side kicker to IB you take half damage from falls. Still think they're equal?

Actually, your math is off:
BF is DR2/- with augment +1/- for 3pp.
you need 10pp for DR 5/- with BF.
but then again, for 19 pp, I get DR 8/- with BF ...
How about IB? how yeah, you're still stuck at 5/- ...
still think they're equal?
Nope, you're right!! Biofeedback is better!! More options! better augment!
;)

(might want to rethink your examples ..)
AntiDjinn
04-18-08, 02:18 AM Biofeedback is superior to Inertial Barrier because it can be augmented for better DR (why do you manifest either power? To get DR) while IB is capped at 5 points. It lasts much longer than Biofeedback, but at later levels 5 DR won't even be worth the action it takes to put it up and you will be using Biofeedback to get a better total. Anyway just because you can come up with a few specific examples where powers manifest at the same point total are not exactly equivalent does not mean the system needs to be revamped; it is your job as a player to make good choices for your powers, not to make poor choices then whine that the system should be changed to make your choices better.

In any case, what is your plan for dealing with Psychic Reformation and choosing to exchange powers? As the rules stand, a character who is entitled to select a single power of up to 4th level could select a single first level power and be happy with it. If he decides he is not happy, then he can always Reform that power away: Selecting any power on his class list up to 4th level. In other words: Psychic Reformation lets you exchange a power for any other power you could have taken, not just one of the level you actually did take (no, not based on current level; based on options available at the character level being reformed). So what happens if he selected 3 1st level powers in place of a 3rd, or a 2nd and 3rd in place of a 5th? Can he then Reform those slots to be 3rd and 5th level slots respectively (a net gain in total power levels) or would he have to keep individual track of the value of each slot under-selected, the slots that match it (other lower level slots taken along with the given power in place of a higher level power) as well as the level of power he didn't take, so that all would be reformed as a unit? Would the 2nd and 3rd level powers selected at the same time in lieu of a 5th have to be reformed as a unit because the 5th level slot would normally be a single unit? If you Reform a 6th level slot, can you do so in any combination that adds up to 6? Not by the current rules, but if you are allowing multiple lower level powers to be taken based on the highest level that could be taken, then Psychic Reformation should allow that.

Next problem: You have decided to create a 15th level NPC psion to challenge your party. How many powers does he know? By the standard rules he knows 28 powers, up to 2 of them are 8th level. You just have to pick them. Under your variant rules, well, have a seat and make him from the ground up. Up to 2nd level he knows 5 powers, but when he hits 3rd level he might know 7 (standard) or 8 (having exchanged one second level power for 2 1st) or 9 (having selected 4 1st level powers instead of 2 2nd). At level 4 he might know 9 powers, or 10, or 11. At 5th level he might know the standard 11 or up to 19 1st level powers.

Before implementing a system change you are going to need to have mechanics to deal with these issues.
sarmoon
04-21-08, 02:43 PM To be clear, the 3 1st level powers for one third was not my solution, but one I was investigating here on the forum. While as a PC I would like the option, to my objective judgment it would seem to be overpowered.

In regards to an augmented 1st level power being equal to that of a 3rd, I will agree that can often be the case but the lower level powers typically have limitations on spend (max PP's), limited durations, lower DC's, easier to dispel, etc.

However, that is not the actual point I am arguing here. To simplify, let's go back to biofeedback and simply state my character wants to research a third level version of this power. Should they be equal in all ways or should the third level version be enhanced with a longer duration, better scaling or cost efficiency, etc.? If your answer is "no", then there is little point to having different power levels. If the answer is "yes", then someone should be able to work out a reasonable version of the power suitable for 3rd level. Many examples of this exist today that have the "greater" prefix.

That behind us, I'd simply like to work out a 3rd level power that the forum could objectively help with to maintain fair game play in my local universe (and thank you in advance for the objective feedback).

So, here's a few new examples ...

(new) Greater Vigor - same as Vigor but duration is 10 min/level but duration is 10 min/level instead of 1 min/level

(new) Greater Precognition (Offensive, Defensive, etc.) same as precognition xyz but duration is 10 min/level instead of 1 min/level

(original) - seems overpowered to me - maybe 4th level?
Skin of the Celestial
Psycho metabolism
Level: Psychic Warrior 3 (4th?)
Display: Material and Olfactory
Manifesting time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level
Power Points: 5 (or 7 if 4th)

Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +3 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 2/-.

Augment: For each additional 4 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1.

Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2 but duration is decreased to 1 min per level.

Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action.
jbsaff
04-23-08, 04:38 PM Your "Greater" version sound like the could just as easily be augments. I seem to recall seeing such an augment in certain powers, but I can't remember if that was in the SRD or a 3rd party supplement.
Lycanthromancer
04-23-08, 06:18 PM I know which 3rd party supplement it's in.

I won't tell...
...but you can browse around in my sig if you want...
...y'know, just as an aside, because the psionic powers revision doesn't have lots of extra augments or anything...
...because I never thought that nifty-neato augments would be awesome at all...
...nope, not at all.

:P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sarmoon 04-15-08, 07:52 PM	All, I'm inquiring about the option to select two first level powers over one third level power when gaining a new level. A second option would be to research a new power that in some fashion incorporates both 1st level powers into once (e.g. Biofeedback and Thicken Skin). The response I got last time around was you could augment a 1st level power and it's as good as a third so it wasn't felt by some that this was feasible. This is purely untrue. As an example, look at biofeedback versus Inertial barrier. BF is DR 2/- and IB is 5/-. To get BF to 5/- you'd need to spend 13 PP's to get the same benefit as the 7 you would spend on IB. As a side kicker to IB you take half damage from falls. Still think they're equal? So, is there a proposal maybe for spell casters that might be translatable to this situation? Maybe a feat suggestion here? If not, then my question is how fair is it to combine two powers into one as a researched power using the scale that the effective power needs to double in scale (e.g. two 1st powers = 3rd, two 2nd = 4th, two 3rd = 6th, etc.) Lastly, if this were feasible, would power point augments of the two powers affect both powers. Here's an example I'm thinking of ... Skin of the Celestial (Thicken skin + Biofeedback) Psychometabolism Level: Psychic Warrior 3 Display: Material and Olfactory Manifesting time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 5 Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +2 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 3/-. (NOTE: a combined power at a higher level should pass along a PP savings TS +3 = 7 PP and BF 3/- is 4 PP so the savings is 6 PP's - roughly same scale as BF to Inertial Barrier above which is 7 to 13). Augment: For each additional 3 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1 Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2 Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action.
calronmoonflower 04-15-08, 10:01 PM	All, I'm inquiring about the option to select two first level powers over one third level power when gaining a new level. No option exists like that in the Rules As Written. A second option would be to research a new power that in some fashion incorporates both 1st level powers into once (e.g. Biofeedback and Thicken Skin). The effect would be more powerful than using Quicken Power or Linked Power. The cost increase should be high to reflect this. However, in the end the dungeon master must approve the power. Skin of the Celestial (Thicken skin + Biofeedback) Psychometabolism Level: Psychic Warrior 3 Display: Material and Olfactory Manifesting time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 5 Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +2 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 3/-. (NOTE: a combined power at a higher level should pass along a PP savings TS +3 = 7 PP and BF 3/- is 4 PP so the savings is 6 PP's - roughly same scale as BF to Inertial Barrier above which is 7 to 13). Augment: For each additional 3 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1 Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2 Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action. The power should cost more than it does as you are essentially gaining a free power by learning it and getting a free manifestation when you use it. I'd say at least it would be a 4th level power. Also the first augment needs to be split into 2 parts or cost more, say 4. As it is at higher levels you can get the effects cheaper and quicker through this augmentation than paying for both powers separate. A two for one augment with an base increase of 2 (or even my suggested 4) power points is too much. The rest of the augments look alright though.
DracoPhoenix 04-17-08, 06:47 AM	Sadly the 2 for 1 is out - which is a pain in later levels when you look at the range of L9 powers available. Talk to your DM about making the Max power level known / level into # power levels to "spend". E.g. you could get 3 L3 (Or 2 L4s + 1 L1) powers for 1 L9 power. I think the research is definitely going to be DM territory too. All too easy to munchkin these spells - 5 pp for +4 AC and +4 shield? (+8 Total) is a steal, though the augmenting would be stunted (you would have to pay combined or separately for the augments of each - so you probably couldn't max both powers). That said, if you get the Spell level spend points, pack link power and you have a similar effect (you'll get more spells too).
sarmoon 04-17-08, 07:55 PM	With version 4.0 coming out I suppose I won't hold my breath for errata to add on to the RAW for 3.5. Anyhow, I suppose the next best option is 1 of 2. 1st - Have a house rule that allows you to split up a level 3 power gained into 3 1st level, 2 1st & 1 2nd, or one 3rd power as suggested. Not a bad option. 2nd - Work out a new power. To add to my earlier outlook on the "skin of the celestial", I think it's important to realize the powers I've combined have different effects that DO NOT stack as that would clearly be min/max and should be thrown out (such as +4 and +4 to AC). So, as guidelines go, I think that would need to be rule #1. Second piece would be to work out the augments. Would the augments pass on a savings for both powers at a higher level or would they be equivalent, or even cost more. Here is a more polished entry, perhaps ... Skin of the Celestial Psycho metabolism Level: Psychic Warrior 3 Display: Material and Olfactory Manifesting time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 5 Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +3 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 2/-. Augment: For each additional 4 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1. Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2 but duration is decreased to 1 min per level. Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action. Rationale: Normal power costs for BF and TS would add up to 8 PP's if used separately. The 3rd level power costs 5 PP's (a savings at higher level). Augmenting is rationed down to 4PP's for 3rd power to 6 for 1st (33% savings). Special Fast healing augment powered down by decreasing duration to 1 min/level.
The_Ditto 04-17-08, 09:22 PM	As an example, look at biofeedback versus Inertial barrier. BF is DR 2/- and IB is 5/-. To get BF to 5/- you'd need to spend 13 PP's to get the same benefit as the 7 you would spend on IB. As a side kicker to IB you take half damage from falls. Still think they're equal? Actually, your math is off: BF is DR2/- with augment +1/- for 3pp. you need 10pp for DR 5/- with BF. but then again, for 19 pp, I get DR 8/- with BF ... How about IB? how yeah, you're still stuck at 5/- ... still think they're equal? Nope, you're right!! Biofeedback is better!! More options! better augment! ;) (might want to rethink your examples ..)
AntiDjinn 04-18-08, 02:18 AM	Biofeedback is superior to Inertial Barrier because it can be augmented for better DR (why do you manifest either power? To get DR) while IB is capped at 5 points. It lasts much longer than Biofeedback, but at later levels 5 DR won't even be worth the action it takes to put it up and you will be using Biofeedback to get a better total. Anyway just because you can come up with a few specific examples where powers manifest at the same point total are not exactly equivalent does not mean the system needs to be revamped; it is your job as a player to make good choices for your powers, not to make poor choices then whine that the system should be changed to make your choices better. In any case, what is your plan for dealing with Psychic Reformation and choosing to exchange powers? As the rules stand, a character who is entitled to select a single power of up to 4th level could select a single first level power and be happy with it. If he decides he is not happy, then he can always Reform that power away: Selecting any power on his class list up to 4th level. In other words: Psychic Reformation lets you exchange a power for any other power you could have taken, not just one of the level you actually did take (no, not based on current level; based on options available at the character level being reformed). So what happens if he selected 3 1st level powers in place of a 3rd, or a 2nd and 3rd in place of a 5th? Can he then Reform those slots to be 3rd and 5th level slots respectively (a net gain in total power levels) or would he have to keep individual track of the value of each slot under-selected, the slots that match it (other lower level slots taken along with the given power in place of a higher level power) as well as the level of power he didn't take, so that all would be reformed as a unit? Would the 2nd and 3rd level powers selected at the same time in lieu of a 5th have to be reformed as a unit because the 5th level slot would normally be a single unit? If you Reform a 6th level slot, can you do so in any combination that adds up to 6? Not by the current rules, but if you are allowing multiple lower level powers to be taken based on the highest level that could be taken, then Psychic Reformation should allow that. Next problem: You have decided to create a 15th level NPC psion to challenge your party. How many powers does he know? By the standard rules he knows 28 powers, up to 2 of them are 8th level. You just have to pick them. Under your variant rules, well, have a seat and make him from the ground up. Up to 2nd level he knows 5 powers, but when he hits 3rd level he might know 7 (standard) or 8 (having exchanged one second level power for 2 1st) or 9 (having selected 4 1st level powers instead of 2 2nd). At level 4 he might know 9 powers, or 10, or 11. At 5th level he might know the standard 11 or up to 19 1st level powers. Before implementing a system change you are going to need to have mechanics to deal with these issues.
sarmoon 04-21-08, 02:43 PM	To be clear, the 3 1st level powers for one third was not my solution, but one I was investigating here on the forum. While as a PC I would like the option, to my objective judgment it would seem to be overpowered. In regards to an augmented 1st level power being equal to that of a 3rd, I will agree that can often be the case but the lower level powers typically have limitations on spend (max PP's), limited durations, lower DC's, easier to dispel, etc. However, that is not the actual point I am arguing here. To simplify, let's go back to biofeedback and simply state my character wants to research a third level version of this power. Should they be equal in all ways or should the third level version be enhanced with a longer duration, better scaling or cost efficiency, etc.? If your answer is "no", then there is little point to having different power levels. If the answer is "yes", then someone should be able to work out a reasonable version of the power suitable for 3rd level. Many examples of this exist today that have the "greater" prefix. That behind us, I'd simply like to work out a 3rd level power that the forum could objectively help with to maintain fair game play in my local universe (and thank you in advance for the objective feedback). So, here's a few new examples ... (new) Greater Vigor - same as Vigor but duration is 10 min/level but duration is 10 min/level instead of 1 min/level (new) Greater Precognition (Offensive, Defensive, etc.) same as precognition xyz but duration is 10 min/level instead of 1 min/level (original) - seems overpowered to me - maybe 4th level? Skin of the Celestial Psycho metabolism Level: Psychic Warrior 3 (4th?) Display: Material and Olfactory Manifesting time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 5 (or 7 if 4th) Your skin or natural armor thickens and spreads across your body providing a +3 enhancement bonus to your armor class. Your skin also becomes toughened against wounds and other attacks and you also effectively gain DR 2/-. Augment: For each additional 4 PP's you spend, the enhancement bonus to your natural armor and damage reduction increase by 1. Augment: Spend 5 additional PP's and also gain fast healing 2 but duration is decreased to 1 min per level. Augment: Spend 6 additional PP's to manifest this power as a swift action.
jbsaff 04-23-08, 04:38 PM	Your "Greater" version sound like the could just as easily be augments. I seem to recall seeing such an augment in certain powers, but I can't remember if that was in the SRD or a 3rd party supplement.
Lycanthromancer 04-23-08, 06:18 PM	I know which 3rd party supplement it's in. I won't tell... ...but you can browse around in my sig if you want... ...y'know, just as an aside, because the psionic powers revision doesn't have lots of extra augments or anything... ...because I never thought that nifty-neato augments would be awesome at all... ...nope, not at all. :P