Is Soulknife really a psionic class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is Soulknife really a psionic class? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DM-Scott
06-23-07, 04:03 AM This is going to sound like a dumb question, but what actually constitutes as a psionic class? What I mean is, if a class has a manifester level and manifests powers and gains power points OR continues the growth of said manifesting levels (such as with prestige classes), this seems like a prime example of a "psionic class".

However, what makes the soul-knife a psionic class? They gain no manifester levels, can manifest no psionic powers derrived from their class, and are only psionic because they gain Wild Talent as a bonus feat? Wouldn't that mean virtually any class on a character with wild talent becomes a "psionic class"?

Does this mean that because a monk gains either improved grapple or stunning fist that they become a "grapple" or "stunning" class? Ok, not the best analogy but still.

I'm asking because while working on my expanded psicrystal rules in another post (see my signature), a couple of people have mentioned soul knives as psionic classes. Currently the rules I've been writing for the psicrystals are completely based off of manifesting levels. I believe there is also evidence to suggest that is how the psicrystal is supposed to work even in the standard. However, it's either oddly worded or I'm missing something...

The XPH says...
"Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities."
How does the soul-knife count as a psionic class count anymore as a psionic class than any other non-manifesting class?

Thanks in advance. This is out of curiosity anyway.
Peace out, game on.
Zarreth_Nessad
06-23-07, 04:12 AM Any class that requires (for PrC's) or grants psionic power in any form (such as just giving one power point to make the person psionic, or giving the Wild Talent feat) is considered Psionic in nature. A human with Wild Talent and levels in only Wizard is not considered to have any levels in psionic classes.

In regards to the soulknive, it "manifests" his weapons, and gives him the Wild Talent feat so that he is considered a psionic character and can recieve psi-like abilities. As a side note, you'll see that any template that gives psi-like abilities also makes sure to give the character at least one power point to make him/her "Naturally Psionic" and gives them the Psionic subtype.
DM-Scott
06-23-07, 04:23 AM Any class that requires (for PrC's) or grants psionic power in any form (such as just giving one power point to make the person psionic, or giving the Wild Talent feat) is considered Psionic in nature. A human with Wild Talent and levels in only Wizard is not considered to have any levels in psionic classes.

In regards to the soulknive, it "manifests" his weapons, and gives him the Wild Talent feat so that he is considered a psionic character and can recieve psi-like abilities. As a side note, you'll see that any template that gives psi-like abilities also makes sure to give the character at least one power point to make him/her "Naturally Psionic" and gives them the Psionic subtype.

Thanks. This makes some sense I think. Though tossing on a bonus feat and calling it a psionic class seems like a poor way to do it. Makes their power points come from a source other than the class itself. As it is, the soulknife class relies on a character being psionic, and grants a bonus feat to make sure that they are. Perhaps they should have actually given them two power points as a class ability instead. But all that musing aside...

My next question is...if a soul-knife qualifies as a psionic class due to the wild talent as a bonus feat, does that mean that if another class granted wild talent as a bonus feat (either through free feat selection or just because) does that make them psionic classes?

Hmmm...is there somewhere that actually states what constitutes as a "psionic class" that I could show someone or refference out of the book or SRD?
Zarreth_Nessad
06-23-07, 06:01 AM Good question. After half an hour of combing my XPH, I have not found a direct definition of a Psionic Class. I'll take a look in the Complete Psionic here in a little while and if I find it, I'll post it here.
DM-Scott
06-23-07, 06:18 AM Much thanks. :D

I haven't been able to find it either, and I don't have the CPH (and I refuse to ever waste my money on it). :nonono:
Sleepwalker13666
06-23-07, 06:30 AM The soulknife is an interesting case, the main reason I see them getting wild talent is so they can take psionic feats and have a psionic focus.

The psionics of the class are basically limited to the mind blade and a few feats they gain.

what I would do, is if a feat says psionic level than the soulknife can qualify, if it says manifester level, the soulknife can not.
zeratulcraft
06-23-07, 07:11 AM Soulknife was originally a psionic PRC, which did advance some manifesting and required it to enter.
Caterpillar
06-23-07, 09:48 AM Of course it's a psionic class!

They may not have power points or manifest powers, but instead they focus their abilities on their kick butt **mind blade.**

It's a blade made of purely mental energy! Instead of working on the pathways of thought that lead a psion to create energy or teleport, they focus their *psionic* energy on having a more kick butt *mind blade* or even upgrade the mind blade with stuff like psychic strike and knife to the soul.
Zarreth_Nessad
06-23-07, 10:14 AM Well, it doesn't seem to be in either the XPH or the Complete Psionic. I haven't looked at the Online SRD or any FAQ's, so if you want to check there, be my guest. I've run out of time for this morning, though.
InkBlot
06-23-07, 12:13 PM There is no official mechanical definition of "psionic class." The best we can do is say that if the class is psionic in any way, that it counts. Personally, I think the intended definition was "classes in this book," but that's just a guess.
Zarreth_Nessad
06-24-07, 08:18 AM That seems to be the case, although it would also include any PrC that requires or is modified to require Psionics (ie - the Daggerspell Psion alt for Daggerspell Mage).
SlanderPanic
06-24-07, 10:40 AM The soulknife base class is a good example of the designers thinking outside the box. Soulknives apply the power of their minds with a deadly, narrow focus, creating mind blades. It's the same sort of power, just used in a very different manner. They're making use of psionics, just not via the powers the other psionic classes use. The pyrokineticist is the same sort of class: One that shapes the power of thought in unique and violent ways.

The definition of a psionic class is a class that uses psionics. You were thinking too narrowly, assuming that psionic = manifester when that is clearly not the case. I'll note that the Psicrystal Affinity feat has ML 1 as a prerequisite, however, meaning that a single-classed soulknife cannot take it. Manifester level is not a feature of that class. If said soulknife later took levels in a class that granted a manifester level -psychic warrior or war mind, for example- he would then qualify. Upon taking the feat, his psicrystal's abilities would be based on his total levels in psionic classes. For example, a soulknife 9/war mind 3's psicrystal gains natural armor +5, Int +5, and PR.
marak99
06-24-07, 01:56 PM Something that may be worth considering is the SRD definition of manifester level. The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level

If we were talking about a Soulknife with the Hidden Talent variant then this could determine whether your single power is manifested at ML 0 or ML class level
DarkTouch
06-27-07, 09:07 AM I think Psionic Class is less confusing to me than 'Psionic Race'. Mostly because.. well.. what makes something a 'magic race'.

Either way.. I think "Being psionic" happens whenever something either gives you PP or requires you to have PP. But there are exceptions even to that.
InkBlot
06-27-07, 12:38 PM A psionic race is a race with the [psionic] subtype. It's very clearly defined.
DarkTouch
06-27-07, 12:57 PM My complaints go deeper than confusion over the mechanics.

My problem is primarily with the "Naturally Psionic" racial feature. I think its a painfully backwards way to do it. For one thing, most of the races simply don't need it and it handicaps the inclusion of those races in games that might not otherwise use psionics. The Xeph for instance have zero need to be 'Naturally Psionic'. None of their racial abilities call for power points. I feel like the soul knife as a favored class should be enough. Gnomes with their natural spellcasting are the closest example of a "magical race".. but they don't get a special subtype for it.

All in all it feels unecessarily tacked on.. or maybe as a way to 'prove' to the psionics fans that these aren't really just normal races with the wording changed.
Senshu
06-29-07, 03:15 PM Soulknife is a psionic class. They recieve wild talent as a class feature to provide the character with some sort of power point pool to draw from. Just because they dont have a manifester level or anything like that, doesnt mean thier power doesnt stem from a psionic base. They may not USE the power points they have, but a power point pool is required for the class regardless. The thing that makes them a psionic class is the requirement of powerpoints, not the use of them.
turalisj
06-29-07, 11:47 PM Much thanks. :D

I haven't been able to find it either, and I don't have the CPH (and I refuse to ever waste my money on it). :nonono:

There is some good stuff in it. Like the Lurk. And the Ardent. And the soulbow. And the items. And.... should I go on?

Yes, there is some screwed up stuff in the book *cough*astralconstructnerf*cough*, but that does not neccesarily condemn the book.
runestar
06-30-07, 12:09 AM Replace "mind-blade" with "ki" or "arcane" and ...

The soulknife base class is a good example of the designers thinking outside the box.
To me, it seems more like the repackaging of a rather generic prc simply to give it some semblance of a psionic feel. :P
InkBlot
06-30-07, 01:00 AM Psylocke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke#Powers_and_abilities). The Soulknife prestige class was created so people could play Psylocke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke#Powers_and_abilities), whom is one of the quintessential psionic characters in comic books. Just like the Pyrokineticist prestige class was created so people can play Charlie "Firestarter" McGee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestarter), another quintessential psionic character.

Back when the Soulknife was a prestige class, and it still had the ability to manifest powers, this connection was a lot stronger.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 04:03 AM	This is going to sound like a dumb question, but what actually constitutes as a psionic class? What I mean is, if a class has a manifester level and manifests powers and gains power points OR continues the growth of said manifesting levels (such as with prestige classes), this seems like a prime example of a "psionic class". However, what makes the soul-knife a psionic class? They gain no manifester levels, can manifest no psionic powers derrived from their class, and are only psionic because they gain Wild Talent as a bonus feat? Wouldn't that mean virtually any class on a character with wild talent becomes a "psionic class"? Does this mean that because a monk gains either improved grapple or stunning fist that they become a "grapple" or "stunning" class? Ok, not the best analogy but still. I'm asking because while working on my expanded psicrystal rules in another post (see my signature), a couple of people have mentioned soul knives as psionic classes. Currently the rules I've been writing for the psicrystals are completely based off of manifesting levels. I believe there is also evidence to suggest that is how the psicrystal is supposed to work even in the standard. However, it's either oddly worded or I'm missing something... The XPH says... "Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities." How does the soul-knife count as a psionic class count anymore as a psionic class than any other non-manifesting class? Thanks in advance. This is out of curiosity anyway. Peace out, game on.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 04:12 AM	Any class that requires (for PrC's) or grants psionic power in any form (such as just giving one power point to make the person psionic, or giving the Wild Talent feat) is considered Psionic in nature. A human with Wild Talent and levels in only Wizard is not considered to have any levels in psionic classes. In regards to the soulknive, it "manifests" his weapons, and gives him the Wild Talent feat so that he is considered a psionic character and can recieve psi-like abilities. As a side note, you'll see that any template that gives psi-like abilities also makes sure to give the character at least one power point to make him/her "Naturally Psionic" and gives them the Psionic subtype.
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 04:23 AM	Any class that requires (for PrC's) or grants psionic power in any form (such as just giving one power point to make the person psionic, or giving the Wild Talent feat) is considered Psionic in nature. A human with Wild Talent and levels in only Wizard is not considered to have any levels in psionic classes. In regards to the soulknive, it "manifests" his weapons, and gives him the Wild Talent feat so that he is considered a psionic character and can recieve psi-like abilities. As a side note, you'll see that any template that gives psi-like abilities also makes sure to give the character at least one power point to make him/her "Naturally Psionic" and gives them the Psionic subtype. Thanks. This makes some sense I think. Though tossing on a bonus feat and calling it a psionic class seems like a poor way to do it. Makes their power points come from a source other than the class itself. As it is, the soulknife class relies on a character being psionic, and grants a bonus feat to make sure that they are. Perhaps they should have actually given them two power points as a class ability instead. But all that musing aside... My next question is...if a soul-knife qualifies as a psionic class due to the wild talent as a bonus feat, does that mean that if another class granted wild talent as a bonus feat (either through free feat selection or just because) does that make them psionic classes? Hmmm...is there somewhere that actually states what constitutes as a "psionic class" that I could show someone or refference out of the book or SRD?
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 06:01 AM	Good question. After half an hour of combing my XPH, I have not found a direct definition of a Psionic Class. I'll take a look in the Complete Psionic here in a little while and if I find it, I'll post it here.
DM-Scott 06-23-07, 06:18 AM	Much thanks. :D I haven't been able to find it either, and I don't have the CPH (and I refuse to ever waste my money on it). :nonono:
Sleepwalker13666 06-23-07, 06:30 AM	The soulknife is an interesting case, the main reason I see them getting wild talent is so they can take psionic feats and have a psionic focus. The psionics of the class are basically limited to the mind blade and a few feats they gain. what I would do, is if a feat says psionic level than the soulknife can qualify, if it says manifester level, the soulknife can not.
zeratulcraft 06-23-07, 07:11 AM	Soulknife was originally a psionic PRC, which did advance some manifesting and required it to enter.
Caterpillar 06-23-07, 09:48 AM	Of course it's a psionic class! They may not have power points or manifest powers, but instead they focus their abilities on their kick butt mind blade. It's a blade made of purely mental energy! Instead of working on the pathways of thought that lead a psion to create energy or teleport, they focus their psionic energy on having a more kick butt mind blade or even upgrade the mind blade with stuff like psychic strike and knife to the soul.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-23-07, 10:14 AM	Well, it doesn't seem to be in either the XPH or the Complete Psionic. I haven't looked at the Online SRD or any FAQ's, so if you want to check there, be my guest. I've run out of time for this morning, though.
InkBlot 06-23-07, 12:13 PM	There is no official mechanical definition of "psionic class." The best we can do is say that if the class is psionic in any way, that it counts. Personally, I think the intended definition was "classes in this book," but that's just a guess.
Zarreth_Nessad 06-24-07, 08:18 AM	That seems to be the case, although it would also include any PrC that requires or is modified to require Psionics (ie - the Daggerspell Psion alt for Daggerspell Mage).
SlanderPanic 06-24-07, 10:40 AM	The soulknife base class is a good example of the designers thinking outside the box. Soulknives apply the power of their minds with a deadly, narrow focus, creating mind blades. It's the same sort of power, just used in a very different manner. They're making use of psionics, just not via the powers the other psionic classes use. The pyrokineticist is the same sort of class: One that shapes the power of thought in unique and violent ways. The definition of a psionic class is a class that uses psionics. You were thinking too narrowly, assuming that psionic = manifester when that is clearly not the case. I'll note that the Psicrystal Affinity feat has ML 1 as a prerequisite, however, meaning that a single-classed soulknife cannot take it. Manifester level is not a feature of that class. If said soulknife later took levels in a class that granted a manifester level -psychic warrior or war mind, for example- he would then qualify. Upon taking the feat, his psicrystal's abilities would be based on his total levels in psionic classes. For example, a soulknife 9/war mind 3's psicrystal gains natural armor +5, Int +5, and PR.
marak99 06-24-07, 01:56 PM	Something that may be worth considering is the SRD definition of manifester level. The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level If we were talking about a Soulknife with the Hidden Talent variant then this could determine whether your single power is manifested at ML 0 or ML class level
DarkTouch 06-27-07, 09:07 AM	I think Psionic Class is less confusing to me than 'Psionic Race'. Mostly because.. well.. what makes something a 'magic race'. Either way.. I think "Being psionic" happens whenever something either gives you PP or requires you to have PP. But there are exceptions even to that.
InkBlot 06-27-07, 12:38 PM	A psionic race is a race with the [psionic] subtype. It's very clearly defined.
DarkTouch 06-27-07, 12:57 PM	My complaints go deeper than confusion over the mechanics. My problem is primarily with the "Naturally Psionic" racial feature. I think its a painfully backwards way to do it. For one thing, most of the races simply don't need it and it handicaps the inclusion of those races in games that might not otherwise use psionics. The Xeph for instance have zero need to be 'Naturally Psionic'. None of their racial abilities call for power points. I feel like the soul knife as a favored class should be enough. Gnomes with their natural spellcasting are the closest example of a "magical race".. but they don't get a special subtype for it. All in all it feels unecessarily tacked on.. or maybe as a way to 'prove' to the psionics fans that these aren't really just normal races with the wording changed.
Senshu 06-29-07, 03:15 PM	Soulknife is a psionic class. They recieve wild talent as a class feature to provide the character with some sort of power point pool to draw from. Just because they dont have a manifester level or anything like that, doesnt mean thier power doesnt stem from a psionic base. They may not USE the power points they have, but a power point pool is required for the class regardless. The thing that makes them a psionic class is the requirement of powerpoints, not the use of them.
turalisj 06-29-07, 11:47 PM	Much thanks. :D I haven't been able to find it either, and I don't have the CPH (and I refuse to ever waste my money on it). :nonono: There is some good stuff in it. Like the Lurk. And the Ardent. And the soulbow. And the items. And.... should I go on? Yes, there is some screwed up stuff in the book coughastralconstructnerfcough, but that does not neccesarily condemn the book.
runestar 06-30-07, 12:09 AM	Replace "mind-blade" with "ki" or "arcane" and ... The soulknife base class is a good example of the designers thinking outside the box. To me, it seems more like the repackaging of a rather generic prc simply to give it some semblance of a psionic feel. :P
InkBlot 06-30-07, 01:00 AM	Psylocke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke#Powers_and_abilities). The Soulknife prestige class was created so people could play Psylocke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psylocke#Powers_and_abilities), whom is one of the quintessential psionic characters in comic books. Just like the Pyrokineticist prestige class was created so people can play Charlie "Firestarter" McGee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firestarter), another quintessential psionic character. Back when the Soulknife was a prestige class, and it still had the ability to manifest powers, this connection was a lot stronger.