Is the Marksman fun to play? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is the Marksman fun to play? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crake
09-27-07, 01:08 PM I've been thinking about making a new psionic character. I heard about the Marksman as a ranged base class in a dreamscarred press supplement, and was wondering it it was fun to play. If it is I guess I might pick up Untapped Potential or Complete Marksman.
SlanderPanic
09-27-07, 02:05 PM The Marksman is a hell of a lot of fun to play.
sijigs
09-27-07, 05:40 PM This is a good question. I've got the UTP and been using powers/spells only so far.
Khadmus
09-27-07, 05:43 PM The Marksman is a hell of a lot of fun to play.

Good to know.
Bacris
09-27-07, 06:12 PM I actually intend to play a marksman for my next character... assuming my gaming group doesn't do the normal routine of "we don't have a healer... or a utility caster!" that resulted in me playing an ardent for this campaign and us hiring an NPC cleric and me playing a psion for the previous... :P

I only have minimal gameplay experience from playtesting, or I'd offer more feedback - but from that experience, I enjoyed it :)

I'm also quite biased.
AntiDjinn
09-27-07, 06:32 PM It really depends on what you consider to be a fun way to do combat. If your idea of fun is going hand to hand with the monsters and slashing or pummeling them to death, then the marksman is probably not for you. On the other hand, if fun means sniping the bad guy from far away, then cutting him down as he tries to close with you, then the marksman will be your favorite character ever.

Just be aware of your place in the party: Generally far away on a ledge, up a tree, or someplace else difficult to reach for good snipping opportunities, or else behind the fighter wall with the casters. If a melee type gets in your face you are a semi-soft target: Full BAB, but only d6 for hits, simple and light melee weapons, light armor, and a buckler, plus whatever you have going for powers and feats. You can survive melee longer than a full caster, but it is definitely not where you want to be.

If you are the DM, you can probably already tell that is very unlikely for the BBEG to be a marksman, but he could well have one as his favored enforcer/assassin.
Tempest Stormwind
09-27-07, 07:50 PM Two notes on marksman weaknesses:

First: The marksman's AC is deliberately low (except against ranged attacks); she only gets one AC-boosting power (and that's Defensive Precognition, which doesn't augment well) and only has light armor (and tiny shields if she happens to use one-handed weapons...) between her d6 HD and enemy weapons. Learn to use cover, concealment, and distance to your advantage, because you'll need them. Fortunately, you get several powers that provide these or similar; Foxhole is a personal favorite since in addition to making gunner nests it can serve countless other purposes if you're creative.

Second: Beware Wind Wall. Maybe it's a relic of older editions, but it actually shuts down everything about you in one go. Either your DM ignores or rewrites it, or you're shafted if you meet one. (This is, explicitly, why I wrote Localized Windstorm, by the way. It'll also inherit any fix you deliver for Wind Wall.)
AntiDjinn
09-28-07, 02:13 AM You can grab a few powers off of other lists with Expanded Knowledge. This can be good for having a power that opponents never expect from you, such as Dominate or Time Hop when they have you pegged as a self-buffing archer. I suspect marksmen will commonly use EK to pick up Fly and other movement powers.
SlanderPanic
09-28-07, 02:05 PM Tempest mentioned a Renaissance firearms style that he was working on for the marksman. Did that ever get realized, or was it buried under the other stuff he had in progress?
Tempest Stormwind
09-28-07, 06:08 PM Tempest mentioned a Renaissance firearms style that he was working on for the marksman. Did that ever get realized, or was it buried under the other stuff he had in progress?

Buried. I have more done on the UTP web enhancement than that because I'm not familiar with how to balance d20 firearms, although that's changing a bit since I'm far more familiar with Saga now.
Mercurius
09-28-07, 10:40 PM Personally, I really am hoping to see something cool for firearms and marksmen. Hopefully something better than the utter crap that is the DMG's firearms...

Aside from stylistic reasons, I can't see why anyone would bother taking an EWP for any of them.

As for the marksman, I haven't used one except in one encounter, but the power that allows for ephemeral bolts that lodge into people is hella fun for an assassin. I managed to get off a good dozen spread throughout a party of five in one game before they all went off and left them in a world of hurt at the beginning of a fight. Coupled with the advanced Psionic Shot chain, they're pretty awesome.
AAB
09-28-07, 11:36 PM For guns I would personally double the damage dice from what is in the DMG (2d10 for a pistol, 2d12 for a musket).
SlanderPanic
10-01-07, 04:21 PM I treat EWP (firearms) as one proficiency, personally. In most of my campaigns, Renaissance firearms are in common enough use that they're treated as martial. (I even built a prestige class around their use. It's in my sig. I think you can guess which link.) I've found the firearms to be balanced decently against other ranged weapons. They've got a slightly higher damage at a slightly higher opportunity cost. Guns shouldn't be über-damage insta-kill weapons in D&D any more than katanas should.

Were I going to use more-advanced firearms, I'd use Spycraft's gun stats. They're quite nice.
AAB
10-01-07, 06:12 PM 2d12 for a musket is hardly an"uber-damage insta-kill". Compare that to another exotic ranged weapon, the greatbow. It deals 1d10 damage. Not great. But then you add some strength bonus to that and you've got a killing machine. Not to mention a musket fires much slower. They need something to keep them from falling behind so quickly.
Lycanthromancer
10-01-07, 06:38 PM :devil: Psionic Shot. :devil:
AntiDjinn
10-01-07, 08:11 PM If you want some workable rules for fantasy firearms, the Iron Kingdoms campaign setting has them. The rules are 3.5, although they may take adapting to a given DM's world (especially prices and other economic factors; my group never figured out how the designers expected adventurers to actually make a living when they could spend 5 day's wages on the material component for one 1st level direct fire combat spell).

One thing that makes DMs hesitate to add firearms their game: Bombs. Once you have allowed for explosive-driven hand-held projectiles, you have given the PCs what they need to make larger explosives. In fact, in the real world, cask bombs, petards, rockets, fireworks, cannons, and grenades pre-dated usable handguns.

Iron Kingdoms rules gives DMs a simple way to handle low level characters trying to blow up the BBEG's castle with a petard: The substance that goes "BOOM!" is not gunpowder, but a mixture of magical ingredients. A guild of alchemists controls the sale of this mixture, since only they have the formula. Getting enough to blow a huge hole in the campaign is expensive (as in way expensive) and the guild is not interested in destabilizing the economy, so they won't sell you a large amount if they don't know your intent. The reaction can also be blocked by anti-magic or dampened with spells, so important structures can have defenses that need to be bypassed before a bomb can be detonated. By the time characters have the resources to make triggered or timed explosives of high destructive potential, they could already be throwing Delayed-Blast Fireball or Disintegrate, so balance is more or less maintained.

The setting also features another inevitable consequence of introducing firearms to a fantasy setting: If guns are important enough to see regular use, then they are important enough that people have developed enchantments for and against them. There exists a Gunmage class, a semi-sorcerer who casts spells into his bullets then shoots people with them. There are spells that can instantly reload a gun, as well so spells that can prevent them from firing.

So if there are marksmen in the game who use psionics to enhance their skill with firearms, assume there are going to be kineticists, who would rather not get shot, and who will have researched a few powers that act as countermeasures.
kyeudo
10-02-07, 01:29 AM D&D already has stats for decent sized bombs. Demolition Charges from Secrets of Sarlona can do as much as 10d6 damage with a single charge. So expensive they arn't regularly affordable until you could chuck fireballs that deal as much, but still, the option is there.
CrimsonDeath
10-02-07, 03:53 AM D&D already has stats for decent sized bombs. Demolition Charges from Secrets of Sarlona can do as much as 10d6 damage with a single charge. So expensive they arn't regularly affordable until you could chuck fireballs that deal as much, but still, the option is there.

Also, Kobold Ditherbombs from Races of the Dragon. There are also cannons in Stormwrack.
kyeudo
10-02-07, 09:29 AM True enough, but ditherbombs are kind of random. Its hard to get one to do max damage when you need to collapse a castle wall. A demolition charge is a sure thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crake 09-27-07, 01:08 PM	I've been thinking about making a new psionic character. I heard about the Marksman as a ranged base class in a dreamscarred press supplement, and was wondering it it was fun to play. If it is I guess I might pick up Untapped Potential or Complete Marksman.
SlanderPanic 09-27-07, 02:05 PM	The Marksman is a hell of a lot of fun to play.
sijigs 09-27-07, 05:40 PM	This is a good question. I've got the UTP and been using powers/spells only so far.
Khadmus 09-27-07, 05:43 PM	The Marksman is a hell of a lot of fun to play. Good to know.
Bacris 09-27-07, 06:12 PM	I actually intend to play a marksman for my next character... assuming my gaming group doesn't do the normal routine of "we don't have a healer... or a utility caster!" that resulted in me playing an ardent for this campaign and us hiring an NPC cleric and me playing a psion for the previous... :P I only have minimal gameplay experience from playtesting, or I'd offer more feedback - but from that experience, I enjoyed it :) I'm also quite biased.
AntiDjinn 09-27-07, 06:32 PM	It really depends on what you consider to be a fun way to do combat. If your idea of fun is going hand to hand with the monsters and slashing or pummeling them to death, then the marksman is probably not for you. On the other hand, if fun means sniping the bad guy from far away, then cutting him down as he tries to close with you, then the marksman will be your favorite character ever. Just be aware of your place in the party: Generally far away on a ledge, up a tree, or someplace else difficult to reach for good snipping opportunities, or else behind the fighter wall with the casters. If a melee type gets in your face you are a semi-soft target: Full BAB, but only d6 for hits, simple and light melee weapons, light armor, and a buckler, plus whatever you have going for powers and feats. You can survive melee longer than a full caster, but it is definitely not where you want to be. If you are the DM, you can probably already tell that is very unlikely for the BBEG to be a marksman, but he could well have one as his favored enforcer/assassin.
Tempest Stormwind 09-27-07, 07:50 PM	Two notes on marksman weaknesses: First: The marksman's AC is deliberately low (except against ranged attacks); she only gets one AC-boosting power (and that's Defensive Precognition, which doesn't augment well) and only has light armor (and tiny shields if she happens to use one-handed weapons...) between her d6 HD and enemy weapons. Learn to use cover, concealment, and distance to your advantage, because you'll need them. Fortunately, you get several powers that provide these or similar; Foxhole is a personal favorite since in addition to making gunner nests it can serve countless other purposes if you're creative. Second: Beware Wind Wall. Maybe it's a relic of older editions, but it actually shuts down everything about you in one go. Either your DM ignores or rewrites it, or you're shafted if you meet one. (This is, explicitly, why I wrote Localized Windstorm, by the way. It'll also inherit any fix you deliver for Wind Wall.)
AntiDjinn 09-28-07, 02:13 AM	You can grab a few powers off of other lists with Expanded Knowledge. This can be good for having a power that opponents never expect from you, such as Dominate or Time Hop when they have you pegged as a self-buffing archer. I suspect marksmen will commonly use EK to pick up Fly and other movement powers.
SlanderPanic 09-28-07, 02:05 PM	Tempest mentioned a Renaissance firearms style that he was working on for the marksman. Did that ever get realized, or was it buried under the other stuff he had in progress?
Tempest Stormwind 09-28-07, 06:08 PM	Tempest mentioned a Renaissance firearms style that he was working on for the marksman. Did that ever get realized, or was it buried under the other stuff he had in progress? Buried. I have more done on the UTP web enhancement than that because I'm not familiar with how to balance d20 firearms, although that's changing a bit since I'm far more familiar with Saga now.
Mercurius 09-28-07, 10:40 PM	Personally, I really am hoping to see something cool for firearms and marksmen. Hopefully something better than the utter crap that is the DMG's firearms... Aside from stylistic reasons, I can't see why anyone would bother taking an EWP for any of them. As for the marksman, I haven't used one except in one encounter, but the power that allows for ephemeral bolts that lodge into people is hella fun for an assassin. I managed to get off a good dozen spread throughout a party of five in one game before they all went off and left them in a world of hurt at the beginning of a fight. Coupled with the advanced Psionic Shot chain, they're pretty awesome.
AAB 09-28-07, 11:36 PM	For guns I would personally double the damage dice from what is in the DMG (2d10 for a pistol, 2d12 for a musket).
SlanderPanic 10-01-07, 04:21 PM	I treat EWP (firearms) as one proficiency, personally. In most of my campaigns, Renaissance firearms are in common enough use that they're treated as martial. (I even built a prestige class around their use. It's in my sig. I think you can guess which link.) I've found the firearms to be balanced decently against other ranged weapons. They've got a slightly higher damage at a slightly higher opportunity cost. Guns shouldn't be über-damage insta-kill weapons in D&D any more than katanas should. Were I going to use more-advanced firearms, I'd use Spycraft's gun stats. They're quite nice.
AAB 10-01-07, 06:12 PM	2d12 for a musket is hardly an"uber-damage insta-kill". Compare that to another exotic ranged weapon, the greatbow. It deals 1d10 damage. Not great. But then you add some strength bonus to that and you've got a killing machine. Not to mention a musket fires much slower. They need something to keep them from falling behind so quickly.
Lycanthromancer 10-01-07, 06:38 PM	:devil: Psionic Shot. :devil:
AntiDjinn 10-01-07, 08:11 PM	If you want some workable rules for fantasy firearms, the Iron Kingdoms campaign setting has them. The rules are 3.5, although they may take adapting to a given DM's world (especially prices and other economic factors; my group never figured out how the designers expected adventurers to actually make a living when they could spend 5 day's wages on the material component for one 1st level direct fire combat spell). One thing that makes DMs hesitate to add firearms their game: Bombs. Once you have allowed for explosive-driven hand-held projectiles, you have given the PCs what they need to make larger explosives. In fact, in the real world, cask bombs, petards, rockets, fireworks, cannons, and grenades pre-dated usable handguns. Iron Kingdoms rules gives DMs a simple way to handle low level characters trying to blow up the BBEG's castle with a petard: The substance that goes "BOOM!" is not gunpowder, but a mixture of magical ingredients. A guild of alchemists controls the sale of this mixture, since only they have the formula. Getting enough to blow a huge hole in the campaign is expensive (as in way expensive) and the guild is not interested in destabilizing the economy, so they won't sell you a large amount if they don't know your intent. The reaction can also be blocked by anti-magic or dampened with spells, so important structures can have defenses that need to be bypassed before a bomb can be detonated. By the time characters have the resources to make triggered or timed explosives of high destructive potential, they could already be throwing Delayed-Blast Fireball or Disintegrate, so balance is more or less maintained. The setting also features another inevitable consequence of introducing firearms to a fantasy setting: If guns are important enough to see regular use, then they are important enough that people have developed enchantments for and against them. There exists a Gunmage class, a semi-sorcerer who casts spells into his bullets then shoots people with them. There are spells that can instantly reload a gun, as well so spells that can prevent them from firing. So if there are marksmen in the game who use psionics to enhance their skill with firearms, assume there are going to be kineticists, who would rather not get shot, and who will have researched a few powers that act as countermeasures.
kyeudo 10-02-07, 01:29 AM	D&D already has stats for decent sized bombs. Demolition Charges from Secrets of Sarlona can do as much as 10d6 damage with a single charge. So expensive they arn't regularly affordable until you could chuck fireballs that deal as much, but still, the option is there.
CrimsonDeath 10-02-07, 03:53 AM	D&D already has stats for decent sized bombs. Demolition Charges from Secrets of Sarlona can do as much as 10d6 damage with a single charge. So expensive they arn't regularly affordable until you could chuck fireballs that deal as much, but still, the option is there. Also, Kobold Ditherbombs from Races of the Dragon. There are also cannons in Stormwrack.
kyeudo 10-02-07, 09:29 AM	True enough, but ditherbombs are kind of random. Its hard to get one to do max damage when you need to collapse a castle wall. A demolition charge is a sure thing.