Is the Psion Uncarnate too weak? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Is the Psion Uncarnate too weak? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Endarire
04-20-08, 04:49 PM The Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) is here, and after reading it over, it doesn't seem that great. Uncarnate loses 4 manifester levels and effectively becomes a ghost, similar to ethereal jaunt or ghostform only more gradual and sooner.

Would balance be significantly disrupted if Uncarnate got more manifester levels? How many additional manifester levels would cause Uncarnate to become too uber?
DracoPhoenix
04-20-08, 05:36 PM The Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) is here, and after reading it over, it doesn't seem that great. Uncarnate loses 4 manifester levels and effectively becomes a ghost, similar to ethereal jaunt or ghostform only more gradual and sooner.

Would balance be significantly disrupted if Uncarnate got more manifester levels? How many additional manifester levels would cause Uncarnate to become too uber?

IIRC this came out before one book (can't remember which one) made it so incorporeal's could pick stuff up with a feat.

Assume equipment is incredibly powerful when you take away that ability - either that, or you need VoP to stay on the power curve.

When you pack a Handy haversack and Skin of Proteus, you get all of the advantages of incorpreal, with few of the limitations.

While it would be nice to get one or two L9 powers, the ability to travel through the rock to stay out of harms way / scout undetected can make up for it quite nicely.

There's also Telekinesis at will to think about, if you know what you're doing, it's a very useful power - you can lift way more than your material body ever could.

50% miss chance on pretty much anything is good for when you're out in the open (ie. the surprise round) and the alter self ability works great when trying to hide in the crowed from the guards.

Admittedly, approaches like a Telepath would probably benefit more than say, a shaper. Their methods requiring less tactile options.

You also have to do everything in your power to not compare it to Arcane PrCs, where the choice isn't so much "should I take one" as it is "which [i]one[/i ] should take".

Short version:

Not really, maybe one less ML penalty, but when you consider what you get, it's not a bad trade off.
You can pack Practised Manifester to pick up the MLs and there's not a lot of L9 powers to begin with, never mind miss. Ok, a few are great, but most of those have hefty xp costs (i.e low frequency use).
hogarth
04-20-08, 06:26 PM To fix the Psion Incarnate (IMO), he needs to be able to use his signature ability more than 1 or 2 minutes per day prior to level 10. Seriously, it's just incredibly limited.
AntiDjinn
04-20-08, 10:56 PM It would be nice if the Uncarnate could phase out willing subjects in contact with him so he could be more of a team player. As it stands, the Uncarnate is very good at being the sole survivor of an otherwise total party wipeout. They can also go places the rest of the party generally can't, so they tend to be solo quite a bit if they are using their abilities to the fullest.
hogarth
04-20-08, 11:02 PM It would be nice if the Uncarnate could phase out willing subjects in contact with him so he could be more of a team player. As it stands, the Uncarnate is very good at being the sole survivor of an otherwise total party wipeout.
The sole survivor...for one minute. :)
AntiDjinn
04-20-08, 11:13 PM The sole survivor...for one minute. :)

I am assuming he actually leaves rather than just floating there waiting to be killed.
CrimsonDeath
04-21-08, 02:30 AM To fix the Psion Incarnate (IMO), he needs to be able to use his signature ability more than 1 or 2 minutes per day prior to level 10. Seriously, it's just incredibly limited.

Similar to the Metamind's problem?
hogarth
04-21-08, 08:47 AM I am assuming he actually leaves rather than just floating there waiting to be killed.
Most of the time simply manifesting Psionic Dimension Door (or better yet, Psionic Teleport) is probably just as useful for running away.

If I were rewriting the class, I would:

Make Shed Body available at level 1. Level 1 of Psion Uncarnate is about the lamest class level I can think of: you lose a manifester level, but in exchange you get a 1d6 touch attack 3/day and an ability that is completely useless until next level.
Increase the number of times Shed Body can be used, either by making it 2/day (4/day at level 6) or by allowing the P.U. to use one round's worth at a time as a free action (to peek through doors and so forth).
Reduce the number of lost manifester levels.
DracoPhoenix
04-21-08, 10:31 AM Similar to the Metamind's problem?

No, the Uncarnate is actually useful. Metamind end's up worst at it's signature ability than a straight 20 psion. At least the psion get's bonus feats and full ML.
CrimsonDeath
04-21-08, 12:02 PM No, the Uncarnate is actually useful. Metamind end's up worst at it's signature ability than a straight 20 psion. At least the psion get's bonus feats and full ML.

But the Metamind does have a considerable power jump from level 9 to level 10. Font of Power may not entirely make up for five lost MLs, but it comes a lot closer than any of the Metamind's other class features.
Ecalsneerg
04-21-08, 12:41 PM I think a fix to Uncarnate would be to allow the rounds spent incorporeal to be spread out, i.e. you still have the same number of rounds incorporeal per day (or even less), but can take it in smaller chunks.
The_Mess
04-21-08, 01:05 PM Make Shed Body available at level 1. Level 1 of Psion Uncarnate is about the lamest class level I can think of:

I vote level 1 lurk. You get two versions of the signature lurk ability. One of them is useless unless the DM is throwing a lot of psions at you (highly unlikely) and the other of them can't even be used until second level.
Endarire
04-21-08, 02:17 PM My initial decision was to grant Shed Body at L1 and have Uncarnate lose ML only at 1 and 10. Does this seem balanced?
CrimsonDeath
04-21-08, 04:17 PM I vote level 1 lurk. You get two versions of the signature lurk ability. One of them is useless unless the DM is throwing a lot of psions at you (highly unlikely) and the other of them can't even be used until second level.

Rogue 20 isn't all that impressive either...
DracoPhoenix
04-22-08, 03:48 AM My initial decision was to grant Shed Body at L1 and have Uncarnate lose ML only at 1 and 10. Does this seem balanced?

Well, shed body at L1 makes a bit more sense in terms of usefulness.

The ML penalty reduction is probably going to require play testing. That said, how many of you games regularly go above 15th? (earliest point you can get Uncarnate 10).

Mine don't get high very quickly, so it wouldn't necessarily impact a huge amount.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarire 04-20-08, 04:49 PM	The Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) is here, and after reading it over, it doesn't seem that great. Uncarnate loses 4 manifester levels and effectively becomes a ghost, similar to ethereal jaunt or ghostform only more gradual and sooner. Would balance be significantly disrupted if Uncarnate got more manifester levels? How many additional manifester levels would cause Uncarnate to become too uber?
DracoPhoenix 04-20-08, 05:36 PM	The Uncarnate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm) is here, and after reading it over, it doesn't seem that great. Uncarnate loses 4 manifester levels and effectively becomes a ghost, similar to ethereal jaunt or ghostform only more gradual and sooner. Would balance be significantly disrupted if Uncarnate got more manifester levels? How many additional manifester levels would cause Uncarnate to become too uber? IIRC this came out before one book (can't remember which one) made it so incorporeal's could pick stuff up with a feat. Assume equipment is incredibly powerful when you take away that ability - either that, or you need VoP to stay on the power curve. When you pack a Handy haversack and Skin of Proteus, you get all of the advantages of incorpreal, with few of the limitations. While it would be nice to get one or two L9 powers, the ability to travel through the rock to stay out of harms way / scout undetected can make up for it quite nicely. There's also Telekinesis at will to think about, if you know what you're doing, it's a very useful power - you can lift way more than your material body ever could. 50% miss chance on pretty much anything is good for when you're out in the open (ie. the surprise round) and the alter self ability works great when trying to hide in the crowed from the guards. Admittedly, approaches like a Telepath would probably benefit more than say, a shaper. Their methods requiring less tactile options. You also have to do everything in your power to not compare it to Arcane PrCs, where the choice isn't so much "should I take one" as it is "which [i]one[/i ] should take". Short version: Not really, maybe one less ML penalty, but when you consider what you get, it's not a bad trade off. You can pack Practised Manifester to pick up the MLs and there's not a lot of L9 powers to begin with, never mind miss. Ok, a few are great, but most of those have hefty xp costs (i.e low frequency use).
hogarth 04-20-08, 06:26 PM	To fix the Psion Incarnate (IMO), he needs to be able to use his signature ability more than 1 or 2 minutes per day prior to level 10. Seriously, it's just incredibly limited.
AntiDjinn 04-20-08, 10:56 PM	It would be nice if the Uncarnate could phase out willing subjects in contact with him so he could be more of a team player. As it stands, the Uncarnate is very good at being the sole survivor of an otherwise total party wipeout. They can also go places the rest of the party generally can't, so they tend to be solo quite a bit if they are using their abilities to the fullest.
hogarth 04-20-08, 11:02 PM	It would be nice if the Uncarnate could phase out willing subjects in contact with him so he could be more of a team player. As it stands, the Uncarnate is very good at being the sole survivor of an otherwise total party wipeout. The sole survivor...for one minute. :)
AntiDjinn 04-20-08, 11:13 PM	The sole survivor...for one minute. :) I am assuming he actually leaves rather than just floating there waiting to be killed.
CrimsonDeath 04-21-08, 02:30 AM	To fix the Psion Incarnate (IMO), he needs to be able to use his signature ability more than 1 or 2 minutes per day prior to level 10. Seriously, it's just incredibly limited. Similar to the Metamind's problem?
hogarth 04-21-08, 08:47 AM	I am assuming he actually leaves rather than just floating there waiting to be killed. Most of the time simply manifesting Psionic Dimension Door (or better yet, Psionic Teleport) is probably just as useful for running away. If I were rewriting the class, I would: Make Shed Body available at level 1. Level 1 of Psion Uncarnate is about the lamest class level I can think of: you lose a manifester level, but in exchange you get a 1d6 touch attack 3/day and an ability that is completely useless until next level. Increase the number of times Shed Body can be used, either by making it 2/day (4/day at level 6) or by allowing the P.U. to use one round's worth at a time as a free action (to peek through doors and so forth). Reduce the number of lost manifester levels.
DracoPhoenix 04-21-08, 10:31 AM	Similar to the Metamind's problem? No, the Uncarnate is actually useful. Metamind end's up worst at it's signature ability than a straight 20 psion. At least the psion get's bonus feats and full ML.
CrimsonDeath 04-21-08, 12:02 PM	No, the Uncarnate is actually useful. Metamind end's up worst at it's signature ability than a straight 20 psion. At least the psion get's bonus feats and full ML. But the Metamind does have a considerable power jump from level 9 to level 10. Font of Power may not entirely make up for five lost MLs, but it comes a lot closer than any of the Metamind's other class features.
Ecalsneerg 04-21-08, 12:41 PM	I think a fix to Uncarnate would be to allow the rounds spent incorporeal to be spread out, i.e. you still have the same number of rounds incorporeal per day (or even less), but can take it in smaller chunks.
The_Mess 04-21-08, 01:05 PM	Make Shed Body available at level 1. Level 1 of Psion Uncarnate is about the lamest class level I can think of: I vote level 1 lurk. You get two versions of the signature lurk ability. One of them is useless unless the DM is throwing a lot of psions at you (highly unlikely) and the other of them can't even be used until second level.
Endarire 04-21-08, 02:17 PM	My initial decision was to grant Shed Body at L1 and have Uncarnate lose ML only at 1 and 10. Does this seem balanced?
CrimsonDeath 04-21-08, 04:17 PM	I vote level 1 lurk. You get two versions of the signature lurk ability. One of them is useless unless the DM is throwing a lot of psions at you (highly unlikely) and the other of them can't even be used until second level. Rogue 20 isn't all that impressive either...
DracoPhoenix 04-22-08, 03:48 AM	My initial decision was to grant Shed Body at L1 and have Uncarnate lose ML only at 1 and 10. Does this seem balanced? Well, shed body at L1 makes a bit more sense in terms of usefulness. The ML penalty reduction is probably going to require play testing. That said, how many of you games regularly go above 15th? (earliest point you can get Uncarnate 10). Mine don't get high very quickly, so it wouldn't necessarily impact a huge amount.