Post/Author/DateTime	Post
chucky 03-22-07, 10:03 AM	Double metacreativity with enlarge psionic and split ray for crystal shard at lvl 8 for 16D6 x 1.5?
Bacris 03-22-07, 10:12 AM	Do you mean Empower, not Enlarge? And Metapower and not Metacreativity? Just trying to figure out what you're actually intending ;)
kyeudo 03-22-07, 10:27 AM	If your asking can you apply both split psionic ray and empower power on to crystal shard and augment it up to your manifester level, the answer is no. First, you must expend your psionic focus to use any of the Metapsionic feats, so you can only apply one Metapsionic feat to a power pre-epic. Second, the cost of a Metapsionic feat counts against your power point limit from your manifester level. Hope I helped.
Suldarr'essalar 03-22-07, 10:36 AM	First, you must expend your psionic focus to use any of the Metapsionic feats, so you can only apply one Metapsionic feat to a power pre-epic.You can applay more with psicrystal containment. Second, the cost of a Metapsionic feat counts against your power point limit from your manifester level.Metapower reduces the cost of metapsionics by 2, so it's possible.
Bacris 03-22-07, 10:37 AM	Essentially, you'd need the following feats: Empower Power Split Psionic Ray Metapower (Empower Power) Metapower (Split Psionic Ray) Psicrystal Affinity Psicrystal Containment At 8th level, you've got 1, 1, 3, 5, 6 - and another if you're a human... So if you're a human who has invested every feat available to you, yes, it's possible... but that's a lot of specialization.
chucky 03-22-07, 11:15 AM	Now that I’ve had some coffee and scanned the books again. Yes its metapower and enpowered :) If you took all these feat’s as a human kineticist you could start out most fights with one hell of a large bang :) If the critter lives through the attack it will definitly be going after you the first chance it gets. I did forget about the only 1 metapower per round thing though :( I might have to change it up so that its just split or enpowered and take psionic meditation so i can do it every round. Aka move action to redo focus then splat. Which would give me the most bang for the pp, enpowerd or split ray?
Tempest Stormwind 03-22-07, 11:24 AM	Which would give me the most bang for the pp, enpowerd or split ray?There's a few factors on that one. You might want to read this, though (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-298304).
chucky 03-22-07, 11:53 AM	Is that chart based on an olver version of psionics?
Tempest Stormwind 03-22-07, 12:52 PM	Is that chart based on an olver version of psionics? Nope. 3.5. Why'd you think otherwise? The problem is he had those nicely tabled, but the CODE tags were removed when they were archived.
carnivore 03-22-07, 04:02 PM	first....Metapower requires you to also Choose a single Power that is Permanently modified with this feat,IIRC if you want big punch.....try using Twin and Split....like this: Twin Power Split Psionic Ray Metapower (Twin Power)crystal shard Metapower (Twin Power)crystal shard Psicrystal Affinity Psicrystal Containment thus as an 8th lvl Human Kineticist: Crystal Shard with 3 extra PP to augment damage= 4d6 twined= 4d6 x2= 8d6 Split = 8d6 x 2= 16d6 NO save/NO SR-PR(DR applies)....for only 8PP and expending two Foci but there are better ways to do this.......will get back later :D
AntiDjinn 03-22-07, 04:15 PM	The combo works, but that is a lot of feats to invest in a tactic that relies on a hit roll roll (even if it is a ranged touch attack). By the level where you can do this most kineticists will be using Energy Missile or will favor damage that always lands. Also, opening with damage is not always such a good tactic. It really only works if you do enough damage to kill your target outright. Remember, that except for damage in response to casting, damage does not make a target softer in D&D. A dragon with 1 hit point left can dish out as much damage as one at full hit points. Your bet bet is to open with a debuff and close the fight with damage. Just shooting them for an opener means they are just going to shoot back. If you instead hit them with something that confuses, blinds, reduces their AC, removes their attacks, impairs their movement, reduces their combat options, weakens them, applies negative levels, or otherwise renders them less able to use their own combos, then picking them off with rays will be relatively easy.
The_Ditto 03-22-07, 05:08 PM	Ok .. I'll bite ... I'm not finding it ... where's Metapower from? :confused:
AntiDjinn 03-22-07, 05:10 PM	Complete Psionic, page 63.
crizhII 03-22-07, 05:24 PM	Ok .. I'll bite ... I'm not finding it ... where's Metapower from? :confused: Complete Psionic. Pretty cool, I think it's particularly good for putting in dorje's with Psychic Reformation. A level 9 Manifester can make a Dorje at ML 1 of Crystal Shard, say, that is Empowered and Split. It would cost 730xp (350+30+350) and when used with Dorje Mastery fires 2 Empowered 5D6 Shards. That's a lot of xp for an ML1 Dorje but you can use it to make more at 30xp's a pop. Pretty good bang for your buck I think.
Tempest Stormwind 03-22-07, 06:04 PM	Metapower reduces the cost of a single metapsionic feat for a single power, essentially. It does so by 2 power points. It's also terribly unclear as to whether or not you can actually manifest the power without the feat applied by it. It still costs you your focus. For comparison, the closest equivalent feat for magic is Arcane Thesis. This reduces the cost of all metamagic feats on a single spell by 1 and boosts your caster level for that spell by 2.
AntiDjinn 03-22-07, 10:58 PM	Metapower also has an unclear interaction with Link Power (big surprise). You must specify the base power and the feat to which metapower is applied, but what about the second power? Would Metapower (Death Urge = base and Linked Power = feat) be enough, or would you need Metapower (Death Urge with Deja Vu linked)? Can you change the secondary power from round to round and still get the two point saving?
The_Ditto 03-23-07, 08:22 AM	Complete Psionic, page 63. :confused: Really?? I looked in my CompPsi ... didn't see it ... hmm will have to look again ... Thanks! :tiphat:
Racinante 03-23-07, 10:04 AM	first....Metapower requires you to also Choose a single Power that is Permanently modified with this feat,IIRC if you want big punch.....try using Twin and Split....like this: Twin Power Split Psionic Ray Metapower (Twin Power)crystal shard Metapower (Twin Power)crystal shard Psicrystal Affinity Psicrystal Containment thus as an 8th lvl Human Kineticist: Crystal Shard with 3 extra PP to augment damage= 4d6 twined= 4d6 x2= 8d6 Split = 8d6 x 2= 16d6 NO save/NO SR-PR(DR applies)....for only 8PP and expending two Foci but there are better ways to do this.......will get back later :D If I remember correctly, each metapsionic addition to a power affects the base power, so what you end up with is: twined= 4d6 x2= 8d6 Split = +4d6 = 12d6 NO save/NO SR-PR(DR applies)....for only 8PP and expending two Foci...
Travis_UI 03-23-07, 11:00 AM	It also bears worth mentioning, I think, that with all of those feats you don't deal 16d6 x 1.5, you deal 8d6 x 1.5 twice, to two different targets, that must be within 30 feet of each other. There are certainly more efficient ways to to go about that.
crizhII 03-23-07, 11:37 AM	It also bears worth mentioning, I think, that with all of those feats you don't deal 16d6 x 1.5, you deal 8d6 x 1.5 twice, to two different targets, that must be within 30 feet of each other. There are certainly more efficient ways to to go about that. I'm not so sure they have to be different targets. The Arcane version has very different text because arcane ray spells sometimes produce multiple rays as part of their base effect. This has resulted in the Psionic version not being a Cut+Paste (for a change). Split Ray specifically allows the same target, Split Psionic Ray is silent on the subject. My view is that if one allows it and the Psionic-X version does not explicitly bar it then it should be permitted. Split Psionic Ray specifies any two valid targets within 30' of each other. You could target an enemies sword and his shield, why not target him twice?
carnivore 03-23-07, 11:53 AM	If I remember correctly, each metapsionic addition to a power affects the base power, so what you end up with is: twined= 4d6 x2= 8d6 Split = +4d6 = 12d6 NO save/NO SR-PR(DR applies)....for only 8PP and expending two Foci... actually i could not find anything official for Psionic Powers.....however with Transparency it works as i said........notice this: If my wizard applies Energy Admixture (Complete Arcane, page 78) and Maximize Spell to the same spell, does he get a spell that deals double its maximized damage (maximum normal damage in two different energy types)? If he also applied the Twin Spell feat (Complete Arcane, page 84) to the same spell would it duplicate the entire effect? Yes and yes. Assuming your character can cast 13th-level spells—the slot required by a 2nd-level spell affected by these metamagic feats—a scorching ray so affected would create two sets of three rays each, with each ray dealing 24 points of fire damage (4d6, maximized) and 24 points of a second energy type (as appropriate for your Energy Substitution feat), for a grand total of 288 points of damage . . . assuming all six rays hit their target.so it shows that the Spell/Power is Cumulatively affected...not just the Base Spell/Power Travis_UI is correct...it will affect 2 targets.....but as crizhII said both targets could be very close.....but notice this: AIMING A SPELL You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate. Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell’s range. Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at. If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists. If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. also notice this: SUNDER You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.) Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points Weapon or Shield Hardness HP1 Light blade 10 2 One-handed blade 10 5 Two-handed blade 10 10 Light metal-hafted weapon 10 10 One-handed metal-hafted weapon 10 20 Light hafted weapon 5 2 One-handed hafted weapon 5 5 Two-handed hafted weapon 5 10 Projectile weapon 5 5 Armor special2 armor bonus x 5 Buckler 10 5 Light wooden shield 5 7 Heavy wooden shield 5 15 Light steel shield 10 10 Heavy steel shield 10 20 Tower shield 5 20 1 The hp value given is for Medium armor, weapons, and shields. Divide by 2 for each size category of the item smaller than Medium, or multiply it by 2 for each size category larger than Medium. 2 Varies by material. Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target whose weapon or shield you are trying to sunder. (If you have the Improved Sunder feat, you don’t incur an attack of opportunity for making the attempt.) Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. Step 3: Consequences. If you beat the defender, roll damage and deal it to the weapon or shield. See Table: Common Armor, Weapon, and Shield Hardness and Hit Points to determine how much damage you must deal to destroy the weapon or shield. If you fail the sunder attempt, you don’t deal any damage. Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character. depending on the power the result will differ as some powers cannot Sunder objects or even damage them due to damage type :D
carnivore 03-23-07, 12:34 PM	an interesting thing to note....the Efficency(Damage(d6)/1 PP expended)...and also the Feat cost(how many feats does it take to do it) all assume: Psicrystal Affinity Psicrystal Containment Psionic Meditation using 2 foci: Split Empower MetaPower Split(power to be affected) MetaPower Empower(power to be affected) with Crystal Shard...it has a Continuous Efficency of: 3d6/ 1PP no matter how high you Augment Crystal Shard but with: Twin Split MetaPower Twin(Crystal Shard) MetaPower Twin(Crystal Shard) it actually starts at a Lower efficency than the above Combo....but they are equal @ 16/17PP manifestation...and the Twin/split Combo continues to become more efficent the higher you go in spending PP on Augment Damage...this is what you really want if you plan on playing into EPIC or even 17th lvl+ Crystal Shard is not the Best to Augment in this manner as it requires so many feats..... a better choice is Psionic Disintegrate.....notice: Split MetaPower Split(Psionic Disintegrate) Efficency 4d6/ 1pp....on Failed Save..... 22d6 to 2 targets with: Split Empower MetaPower Split(Psionic Disintegrate) MetaPower Empower(Psionic Disintegrate) Efficency 6d6/ 1PP.......on Failed Save 33d6 to 2 targets with: Twin Split MetaPower Twin(Psionic Disintegrate) MetaPower Twin(Psionic Disintegrate) MetaPower Twin(Psionic Disintegrate) MetaPower Split(Psionic Disintegrate) Efficency 8d6/ 1PP.......on Failed Save 44d6 to 2 targets but as you can see............this eats Feats up very quickly...unless you are: Human or Strongheart Halfling Psion 20 it is not advisable........a special note: using Psionic Shot and Greater Psionic shot can have even Greater Efficiency.....but only if you spend a single PP to manifest the Power...notice: Split MetaPower Split(Crystal shard) Point Blank Shot Psionic Shot Greater Psionic Shot efficency 10d6/ 1 PP 5d6 to 2 targets the advantage is you can use this without manifesting a Power(Arrows, and other ranged weapons) :D
Racinante 03-23-07, 02:11 PM	If I remember correctly, each metapsionic addition to a power affects the base power, so what you end up with is: twined= 4d6 x2= 8d6 Split = +4d6 = 12d6 NO save/NO SR-PR(DR applies)....for only 8PP and expending two Foci... actually i could not find anything official for Psionic Powers.....however with Transparency it works as i said........notice this: If my wizard applies Energy Admixture (Complete Arcane, page 78) and Maximize Spell to the same spell, does he get a spell that deals double its maximized damage (maximum normal damage in two different energy types)? If he also applied the Twin Spell feat (Complete Arcane, page 84) to the same spell would it duplicate the entire effect? Yes and yes. Assuming your character can cast 13th-level spells—the slot required by a 2nd-level spell affected by these metamagic feats—a scorching ray so affected would create two sets of three rays each, with each ray dealing 24 points of fire damage (4d6, maximized) and 24 points of a second energy type (as appropriate for your Energy Substitution feat), for a grand total of 288 points of damage . . . assuming all six rays hit their target. so it shows that the Spell/Power is Cumulatively affected...not just the Base Spell/Power I see, but this reference An empowered and maximized power/spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result. implies that when two metamagic feats are combined, each apply to the base power. So, if you are correct, then why would the empower / maximize be an exception, especially since it is less effective than the maximize / twin application? I believe the sage either goofed or avoided the precedent set in order to provide a simple answer that the questioner wanted to hear. The FAQ should have come up with: 12d6 - Admixture 12d6 - Twinned 72 - Maximized or a result of 24d6+72 (avg 156) which is still much better than an average spell cast by a 13th level caster (i.e, a maximized fireball or lightning bolt at 60 damage). The additional damage warranted by the fact that you would have to make 9 RTAs.
Tempest Stormwind 03-23-07, 02:22 PM	Racinante: That's a singular exception. There's no such thing as the "base power" mentioned ANYWHERE IN THE RULES. For further discussion, see here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522167). Empower and Maximize have a specific rule on interaction, while no other ones do.
Racinante 03-23-07, 05:10 PM	Racinante: That's a singular exception. There's no such thing as the "base power" mentioned ANYWHERE IN THE RULES. For further discussion, see here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=522167). Empower and Maximize have a specific rule on interaction, while no other ones do. I don't disagree that by the rules this is correct. Looking at the thread you described, the examples given by Turin for the use of a 7th level spell slot, which is what the FAQ entry does, deals 216 damage max over two rounds (which may have been an invalid example using Repeating). The maximum one round damage ranges from 120-144. The example given however deals 288 damage in a single round. This amount completely dwarfs Turin's examples, later in the post, of 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th level average / maximum damage outputs. Hence, I believe that all metamagics / metapsionics that increase the damage dealt by a power or spell should apply to the base spell / power only. I do admit that this is only one example, so Scorching Ray may be the problem here and not the stacking effects described. I'll withhold final judgment.
AntiDjinn 03-23-07, 08:32 PM	The problem is WotC has not made it clear whether the example of the interaction of Maximize and Empower is an example of how metafeats are supposed to interact, or if it is a specific exception to the norm. Many people feel that because this specific interaction is cited, it means the norm is otherwise. But if this is the case, then is the example on page 18 of the XPH of a psion/psychic warrior multiclass an example of the normal way to handle manifester multiclassing or is it an exception for being specifically cited and all other multiclassed manifesters are handled differently? There are other cases as well. It happens when a system is written by multiple authors; some use example to cite the norm and others only cite exceptions. Just wish they would pick one way and go with it or clearly indicate how exemplary text applies.
ravidubey 03-23-07, 10:58 PM	MetaPower Twin(Psionic Disintegrate) MetaPower Twin(Psionic Disintegrate) MetaPower Twin(Psionic Disintegrate) MetaPower Split(Psionic Disintegrate) Metapower can only be applied once per power/metapsionic feat combination.
crizhII 03-24-07, 10:51 AM	Metapower can only be applied once per power/metapsionic feat combination. Dude, that's what I thought too when I was reading that post. Then I went back and read the text... So I will immediately Reform my Erudite to Take Metapower(Twin:Bestow Power) three times....
carnivore 03-24-07, 01:24 PM	So I will immediately Reform my Erudite to Take Metapower(Twin:Bestow Power) three times.... you can do it....but it is a waste of feats.....even though you are trying to get Infinite PP with this....you can avoid all this ....simply by bugeting your expenditure of PP and planning for encounters better....Tactics can make the Best use of PP, better than resorting to tricks like this...which your DM may not approve of. :D
crizhII 03-25-07, 02:17 AM	you can do it....but it is a waste of feats.....even though you are trying to get Infinite PP with this....you can avoid all this ....simply by bugeting your expenditure of PP and planning for encounters better....Tactics can make the Best use of PP, better than resorting to tricks like this...which your DM may not approve of. :D My DM doesn't approve of anything I do....
Psikerlord 03-25-07, 02:34 AM	Why not save yourself the feats cost and just buy a rod of empower? using magic-psionics transparency, this is legal isn't it?
Lycanthromancer 03-25-07, 09:11 AM	Not if it strengthens a psionic manifester, it isn't, even if it should. After all, WotC doesn't like psionics...
Bacris 03-25-07, 10:20 AM	Why not save yourself the feats cost and just buy a rod of empower? using magic-psionics transparency, this is legal isn't it? because Psionic-Magic Transparency has no rules for feats being transparent, so no, it does not work.
AntiDjinn 03-25-07, 12:12 PM	Psionic-magic transparency applies to the interaction of these two types of supernatural effect. It does not mean psionic version of every item or spell must exist. Psionic metarods only exist if a given DM has decided to port this particular bit of cheese.
Psikerlord 03-25-07, 10:43 PM	hmmm.... well... Assuming no feats transparency then... you would have to buy yourself a rod of [psionic] empower... I would think most DMs would allow this sort of straight item conversion, given psions can take the empower feat. Thanks for your answers guys
The_Ditto 03-26-07, 09:16 AM	hmmm.... well... Assuming no feats transparency then... you would have to buy yourself a rod of [psionic] empower... I would think most DMs would allow this sort of straight item conversion, given psions can take the empower feat. Thanks for your answers guys as a DM, I tend to ban metamagic rods ... so no, I wouldn't be adding any psionic versions of them anytime soon ... :tiphat: (just my opinion .... ) :D