Item familiar and PP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Item familiar and PP [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tiarn
02-23-07, 03:18 AM I know this isn't the Unearthed Arcana thread but I specifically want the opinions of those proficient in psionics.

One of the abilities of an item familiar is to invest one of your highest level spell slots and get a bonus one of two levels lower.

Now, that doesn't apply so well when talking about psionics.

I had thought originally that just investing the pp it would take for your highest level power and getting that -4 would be appropriate. Then a player in my game brought up a valid point that doing this isn't the same as getting a spell of the equivalent level.

For example: Investing a 4th level spell gets you a bonus 2nd level spell.
So invest 7 pp and you get 3 bonus pp. But a 2nd level spell is better than an unaugmented 2nd level power due to the fact that spells freely scale.

The player suggested the highest level pp equivalent -2 (so in the above example they would get 5 pp instead)

I wanted to know what others thought before making any decisions, however.
Calain80
02-23-07, 04:22 AM 1st to be clear: Item Familiar is a very High Powered Feat. Even one of the boni of the Feat is well worth it for most Chars. If it wouldn't be for the fact, that you can cripple your Char by loosing it, it would be broken. So a DM should at least try to destroy the item once in a while.

Now if you want to make the Psi Version as powerful as the Spell-Version I would also make the Item an Cognitive Crystal with max PP and would give the Char bonus PP-2.

This would be balanced for this Feat between Spells ans Powers, but I can't stress enough, that this Feat is broken, if the DM does not encourage the downsides of this feat.
Tempest Stormwind
02-23-07, 11:15 AM 1st to be clear: Item Familiar is a very High Powered Feat. Even one of the boni of the Feat is well worth it for most Chars. If it wouldn't be for the fact, that you can cripple your Char by loosing it, it would be broken. So a DM should at least try to destroy the item once in a while.

Now if you want to make the Psi Version as powerful as the Spell-Version I would also make the Item an Cognitive Crystal with max PP and would give the Char bonus PP-2.

This would be balanced for this Feat between Spells ans Powers, but I can't stress enough, that this Feat is broken, if the DM does not encourage the downsides of this feat.
First: Boni is not a word. The plural is "bonuses".

Second: it isn't broken, though it is high-powered. It's similar to Ancestral Relic in that regard.

Second, I think the original calculation (invest up to your ML in power points in it, get your ML-2 in bonus PP) seems a tad strong, but I haven't playtested it to confirm.
GuardianLurker
02-23-07, 12:13 PM First: The English plural is "bonuses".

Boni is the Latin plural of bonus, which is originally a Latin word borrowed into English. The use of "boni" in an English document is exactly as legitimate as the use of the word "hippopatami", and for exactly the same reason.

Teach me to shoot before checking; apparently, like the OP, I was laboring under the impression that boni was the latin plural. Apparently it's "bona".

Learn something new everyday.
DogBackward
02-23-07, 12:32 PM Heh. Shoulda realized I'm not the only one on RPoL that likes the Wizards Boards.

Actually, I like that Cognizance Crystal idea. It could work if, instead of investing PP and getting bonus PP back, my prayer beads could just act as a Cognizance Crystal with a maximum capacity equal to my level. That way, we don't worry about getting extra PP and trying to balance that, I'm just using what was my own PP anyway.

As for the power level of the feat, I'm not getting the bonus XP, so that helps. I will admit that Item Familiar is a nifty ability, though. Now I've just got to figure out how a set of prayer beads would have gained sentience...
IaijutsuMaster#1
03-01-07, 01:18 AM I would think that the -2 wouldn't be out of line, simply because of the scaling issue. Consider the spell Scorching ray. At 3rd level, it deals 4d6 fire damage with a ranged touch, at 7th, 2x4d6, and at 11th, 3x4d6. An equivalent power to the 3rd level wizard's Scorching Ray would be a 3rd level Psion manifesting Energy Ray for 3 PP and 3d6 damage, sacrificing 1d6 dmage for the option of changing energy type(And those little mods). At 7th level, a Psion using the same power would have to spend 7 PP for 7d6 damage to 1 opponent, giving up the option of splitting between 2 objects in exchange for damage type and (assuming fire) 7 extra damage. 11th, same thing.
Now, a 4th level power costs 7 PP. This means that with the standard -2 adjustment option, a wizard will get 8d6 damage for 2 attacks, and with the proposed -4 PP adjustment the Psion will get 3d6 damage. With the -2 PP option, the Psion will get 5d6 damage (+5 if you use fire), which would put it on par with the wizard in terms of either damage or usefulness.
That's why I'd put my vote in under -2 PP, not -4.

As for the Latin question, the Masculine Nominative Plural (What you want to use) of the adjective Bonus,-a,-um would be Boni. Bona is the Nominative Singular Feminine of the same adjective. You see, the dictionary form of a 1st/2nd declension Latin Adjective (Bonus is a 1st/2nd) is thus, (All nominative singular) Masculine, Feminine, Neuter.
Tempest Stormwind
03-01-07, 01:20 AM Still doesn't change that "boni" isn't an English word, since we're speaking in English.

(I tried taking Latin once. It essentially amounted to "memorize this phone book. We CLAIM there's patterns, when really there's more exceptions to those patterns than a Chemistry text." I hate memorization. Very little of that class actually stayed with me.)
GuardianLurker
03-02-07, 11:36 AM True. OTOH, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the linguistic formulations of a word's original language. Nor with using foreign words in an English sentence. Have you ever taken a siesta, or do you always take (when you take them) naps? Do things posses a "certain je ne sais quoi" or just a "certain something"? And what's the plural of baka anyway? All of these are foreign words, and yet we use them in everyday speech.

The error made was in using the incorrect latin plural, not in attempting to use the latin plural in the first place.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tiarn 02-23-07, 03:18 AM	I know this isn't the Unearthed Arcana thread but I specifically want the opinions of those proficient in psionics. One of the abilities of an item familiar is to invest one of your highest level spell slots and get a bonus one of two levels lower. Now, that doesn't apply so well when talking about psionics. I had thought originally that just investing the pp it would take for your highest level power and getting that -4 would be appropriate. Then a player in my game brought up a valid point that doing this isn't the same as getting a spell of the equivalent level. For example: Investing a 4th level spell gets you a bonus 2nd level spell. So invest 7 pp and you get 3 bonus pp. But a 2nd level spell is better than an unaugmented 2nd level power due to the fact that spells freely scale. The player suggested the highest level pp equivalent -2 (so in the above example they would get 5 pp instead) I wanted to know what others thought before making any decisions, however.
Calain80 02-23-07, 04:22 AM	1st to be clear: Item Familiar is a very High Powered Feat. Even one of the boni of the Feat is well worth it for most Chars. If it wouldn't be for the fact, that you can cripple your Char by loosing it, it would be broken. So a DM should at least try to destroy the item once in a while. Now if you want to make the Psi Version as powerful as the Spell-Version I would also make the Item an Cognitive Crystal with max PP and would give the Char bonus PP-2. This would be balanced for this Feat between Spells ans Powers, but I can't stress enough, that this Feat is broken, if the DM does not encourage the downsides of this feat.
Tempest Stormwind 02-23-07, 11:15 AM	1st to be clear: Item Familiar is a very High Powered Feat. Even one of the boni of the Feat is well worth it for most Chars. If it wouldn't be for the fact, that you can cripple your Char by loosing it, it would be broken. So a DM should at least try to destroy the item once in a while. Now if you want to make the Psi Version as powerful as the Spell-Version I would also make the Item an Cognitive Crystal with max PP and would give the Char bonus PP-2. This would be balanced for this Feat between Spells ans Powers, but I can't stress enough, that this Feat is broken, if the DM does not encourage the downsides of this feat. First: Boni is not a word. The plural is "bonuses". Second: it isn't broken, though it is high-powered. It's similar to Ancestral Relic in that regard. Second, I think the original calculation (invest up to your ML in power points in it, get your ML-2 in bonus PP) seems a tad strong, but I haven't playtested it to confirm.
GuardianLurker 02-23-07, 12:13 PM	First: The English plural is "bonuses". Boni is the Latin plural of bonus, which is originally a Latin word borrowed into English. The use of "boni" in an English document is exactly as legitimate as the use of the word "hippopatami", and for exactly the same reason. Teach me to shoot before checking; apparently, like the OP, I was laboring under the impression that boni was the latin plural. Apparently it's "bona". Learn something new everyday.
DogBackward 02-23-07, 12:32 PM	Heh. Shoulda realized I'm not the only one on RPoL that likes the Wizards Boards. Actually, I like that Cognizance Crystal idea. It could work if, instead of investing PP and getting bonus PP back, my prayer beads could just act as a Cognizance Crystal with a maximum capacity equal to my level. That way, we don't worry about getting extra PP and trying to balance that, I'm just using what was my own PP anyway. As for the power level of the feat, I'm not getting the bonus XP, so that helps. I will admit that Item Familiar is a nifty ability, though. Now I've just got to figure out how a set of prayer beads would have gained sentience...
IaijutsuMaster#1 03-01-07, 01:18 AM	I would think that the -2 wouldn't be out of line, simply because of the scaling issue. Consider the spell Scorching ray. At 3rd level, it deals 4d6 fire damage with a ranged touch, at 7th, 2x4d6, and at 11th, 3x4d6. An equivalent power to the 3rd level wizard's Scorching Ray would be a 3rd level Psion manifesting Energy Ray for 3 PP and 3d6 damage, sacrificing 1d6 dmage for the option of changing energy type(And those little mods). At 7th level, a Psion using the same power would have to spend 7 PP for 7d6 damage to 1 opponent, giving up the option of splitting between 2 objects in exchange for damage type and (assuming fire) 7 extra damage. 11th, same thing. Now, a 4th level power costs 7 PP. This means that with the standard -2 adjustment option, a wizard will get 8d6 damage for 2 attacks, and with the proposed -4 PP adjustment the Psion will get 3d6 damage. With the -2 PP option, the Psion will get 5d6 damage (+5 if you use fire), which would put it on par with the wizard in terms of either damage or usefulness. That's why I'd put my vote in under -2 PP, not -4. As for the Latin question, the Masculine Nominative Plural (What you want to use) of the adjective Bonus,-a,-um would be Boni. Bona is the Nominative Singular Feminine of the same adjective. You see, the dictionary form of a 1st/2nd declension Latin Adjective (Bonus is a 1st/2nd) is thus, (All nominative singular) Masculine, Feminine, Neuter.
Tempest Stormwind 03-01-07, 01:20 AM	Still doesn't change that "boni" isn't an English word, since we're speaking in English. (I tried taking Latin once. It essentially amounted to "memorize this phone book. We CLAIM there's patterns, when really there's more exceptions to those patterns than a Chemistry text." I hate memorization. Very little of that class actually stayed with me.)
GuardianLurker 03-02-07, 11:36 AM	True. OTOH, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the linguistic formulations of a word's original language. Nor with using foreign words in an English sentence. Have you ever taken a siesta, or do you always take (when you take them) naps? Do things posses a "certain je ne sais quoi" or just a "certain something"? And what's the plural of baka anyway? All of these are foreign words, and yet we use them in everyday speech. The error made was in using the incorrect latin plural, not in attempting to use the latin plural in the first place.