Post/Author/DateTime	Post
saidin0111 04-27-07, 11:12 AM	I know that it is given that some people will always see psionics as sci-fi only and that others just accept whatever is thrown out there as being perfectly reasonable in a fantasy setting, but after seeing a few posts here and there lately that questioned the fantasy element of psionics, I felt compelled to write this. Here is a quick rundown before I start explaining. I see a psion as a sort of philosopher, while a wizard is more of an academic. Wilders are those stong-willed (will as in not letting oneself be shouted down, not resistance to mental effects) enough to mentally command their desires to manifest, while sorcerors are innately connected to the flows of magic and therefore can cast spells. Okay now a little more in depth. I see psions as being very philosophical in order to understand the depths of their minds and to discover their latent powers. They focus more on the why than the how, as the how flows naturally from the why if you understand it well enough. As their understanding grows into their first manifestations, they learn to guide the natural flows of energy to produce the desired effects. Guiding such flows is not exactly taxing on the psyche and fairly predictable and thus they can learn more powers than a Wilder. As a side note, guiding natural flows of energy seems like a great way to explain the impressive psionic mastery of several of the energy types. Wilders are the type that psychicly "muscle" their way through it. The how and the why are not so important as the it just happens when I need it to. They don't understand the intricate web of energies that interconnect everything and therefore they must put a lot of focus into forcing the world around them to fit their desires, thus they are limited in their power selection and they have the Wild Surge ability. Wizards are academics and study the dizzying array of incantations, gestures, and materials needed to focus the various magical energies inherent in the multiverse into the desired results. While they have a basic understanding of the why, they focus more on the how, as that is what gets results the fastest, it may not allow the most amazing advances in magic, but it is the fastest way to master the huge array of what has already been discovered. Due to their focus on how to cast magic, they have virtually limitless array of spells at their disposal. Sorcerors are the true innates, they simply can do what they do, because it's a part of them. They don't need to understand the how or why, they just can, sure, many go on to learn something of the how so as to focus the development of their power, but they don't have to. Since the weave runs through them innately, they can easily cast the spells they know, thus the increased spells per day, but since they don't really study their spells, they are limited in their knowledge of how to use the flows of magic that run through them. I know this doesn't spell out why psionics should exist, but it shows that they fill a different niche in their approach and thus there is room for them to exist. I understand that psionics is viewed by many to be a sort of evolutionary achievement, which happens to be supported by WotC by making the race from the future, Illithids, the most widely recognized and notorious psionic race in the entire game. As an evolutionary step forward, it does seem sci-fi, and mind flayers are arguably the most sci-fi component of non-spelljammer D&D, but when viewed as a philosophical achievement as I put forth earlier, it can easily fit into a fantasy setting as such workings of the mind as produce psionic effects are nigh impossible to actually study and as such, people of any civilized time period could potentially think deeply and hard enough to unlock the secrets of the mind. I could expand on this more, but this is already a long post and I don't think it would really add all that much to what I've already written. I hope this helps to bring a few people over from the psionics is sci-fi only camp and maybe helps to spawn other ideas as to why psionics is indeed acceptable in a fantasy setting.
BloodSpill 04-27-07, 11:42 AM	Well for me psionics is the same thing that can be seen through the lens of fantasy or science fiction. The names of the powers are merely for the reader's sake anyway. Psions are like scientists, but the system they are trying to understand and the methods they have to probe it are one and the same (their mind), so it is a long and difficult process, but once you understand the principle you can easily make small adjustments, so the system has more finesse. The idea of what makes a good power will get passed around whatever psionic community there is, and all the psions will be able to figure that power out for themselves should they wish. Wizards are like alchemists. They know that if you do X and Y you achieve Z, but they really have no idea what they're doing, so everything needs to be bundled up in a spell that takes exactly W (i.e. spell slot type 1 or whaterver). Wizards do not have any real understanding of magic, merely vast quanities of data on what saying V and gesturing S and sacrificing M will lead to. If they research a new spell that becomes popular, it gets their name attached to it, because coming across useful spells is almost pure luck and few others could reproduce it. In a more advanced campaign setting, you'll typically see psionics rather than magic, because magic has gone the way of alchemy, replaced by a true understanding the supernatural. And wilders don't make any sense to me. Sort of like I.T. people don't make any sense to me.
The Ubbergeek 04-27-07, 11:45 AM	I say - go read on asian mystique, esoterism and myths, and yoiu can see. Now, somes may say, 'bah! fantasy SHOULD be only european-based'... Well, who said fantasy HAVE to be traditional? The key point is that some guys have a narrow, traditionalist view of what is fantasy, and dismiss anything not in the vein of Leibneir, Tolkien, Morcook (ironicaly, he is atypical and a good example of deviant fantasy), Conan, etc...
saidin0111 04-27-07, 12:15 PM	I have to agree with you on the narrow-mindedness of many people towards fantasy. They generally see anything not part of the traditional Dark/Middle Ages mythos to be something similar to, but not really fantasy. And society as a whole seems to view psionics (more commonly referenced as psychic powers) to be wholly sci-fi. Since it seems possible that it may be really possible some time in the far distant future, people tend to automaticly discount the posiblity that it could be part of any other genre than sci-fi. It is often seen alongside widespread genetic engineering, thus helping to solidify said association in people's minds. Oddly enough, when I first actually sat down and looked at D&D, after years of discounting it as some weird thing that ubernerds did, I almost immediately thought that wouldn't it be neat if someone had a mind so powerful that it could produce similar effects to those produced by magic, a few days later, I came across the 3.0 psionics handbook and immediately was overjoyed, then came the realization that everyone seemed to think it was either way too overpowered or horribly underpowered, but no one thought it was balance, so my ideas for a psion were tossed with much disappointment (luckily I hadn't bought the book myself as this was during the first year of the 3.5 transition and I was aware that it was a 3.0 book), but the point is that for me, there was never a question of how can that be anything other than sci-fi, I suppose that it is partly due to not coming up through the various incarnations of D&D and starting off in an edition in which more and more and more options is almost always better, I see psionics as seperate from the setting that they are used in, as in the setting makes it sci-fi, not the psionics, but it seems that many sadly cannot seperate the two also, part of my fascination with psionics could be tied to my real life religious beliefs that "magic," or witchcraft, is an evil act and as such should never be practiced/given serious thought by good God-fearing people, and as such, psionics would give people access to great power w/o committing greivous sins by practicing witchcraft, I provided this just as a possible explanaition for my psionics fascination, it's not something that is intended to offend or to draw criticism, that is not what these boards are for, not that anyone would waste their time flamming me for my beliefs, but just in case it also seems that my adherence to sentence structure is deteriorating, which is a good sign that I need to take a break from the forums for a while so that I'm not on such a roll with my thoughts that I can't properly form them into sentences
InkBlot 04-27-07, 12:35 PM	I almost gave up on D&D because I couldn't find any justification for Arcane magic in fantasy. I've never read a fantasy novel where the mages had to bundle their magic powers into descrete levels of slots, or didn't actualy have to expend more energy to make their spells more powerful. Psionics are classic fantasy to me. Being able to use the XPH to play a "real" mage allows me to appreciate Arcane magic as the silly scifi-inspired aberration that it is.
The Ubbergeek 04-27-07, 04:19 PM	Er.... well, arcane magic is at least closer than typical magik than psionic. Both have their places in fantasy though. Frankly, what gives you a science-fiction vibe in arcane magic?
Rageheart 04-27-07, 04:59 PM	Please explain, what do you concider "Typical Magik"
Tempest Stormwind 04-27-07, 05:10 PM	Er.... well, arcane magic is at least closer than typical magik than psionic. Both have their places in fantasy though. Frankly, what gives you a science-fiction vibe in arcane magic? 1) Drop the special K. The spelling for CENTURIES has been "magic". The K was put there by Alastair Crowley -- if you look him up, chances are you'll see why you should drop the K. 2) Ever read Jack Vance's A Dying Earth books? Slot-based fire-and-forget magic shows up there (and ONLY in that series, pre-D&D). It's a science fiction series with some fantasy elements. 3) Anything can be reflavored. Call the psion a wizard and have runes appear when he manifests casts. 4) Ever read Norse mythology? It's full of magic, and every last one of the magical effects in there feels exactly like it was drawn from psionics.
Rageheart 04-27-07, 05:21 PM	Even within the writings of Alestair Crowley you will not find references to Bat Guano or innane ramblings. Instead he refers to using the correct type and amount of force through the correct medium onto the correct object to acheive a goal. The example he gives is his "assertion of will" to sit down and use Pen and Paper to write a book to inform readers. That fits his definition of magick. (Note: The "special K" is appended, it does not replace the "C".) Magick in Theory and Practice "Magick is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will.” Conformity with the will? Hmmm... Sounds like Psionics to me! :)
GuardianLurker 04-27-07, 05:33 PM	Justification for Psionics in Fantasy? Here's three instances of well-known fantasy literature that explictly use psionics: Katherine Kurtz; The Deryni Series; the entire *reason* psionics is in D&D Julie Dean Smith; Sage of Sare series; I believe it's even explictly called psionics, or at least "mind-magic" Mercedes Lackey; The Valdemar series, esp. the Last Mage trilogy; not just psionics, but psionics and magic coexisting
QuarianRex 04-27-07, 07:14 PM	Personally, I always like the distinctions that were used in the Rolemaster RPG. Arcane Magic was manipulation of the external flow of magic that permeated the universe. One had to have easy access to said flow of magic and so it does not allow the use armour or such things that could block the flow. This could be accomplished (in the D&D perspective) through studied repetition of technique (Wizards) or through the innate power of ones bloodline (Sorcerers). Divine Magic was tapping into the magic that naturally geysers from individual gods. This is easier to channel (explaining that Clerics have access to all spells?) and harder to disrupt (allowing the use of armour and such). Psionics was the ability to generate raw magic from within ones own mind (much as do the gods do but on a much, much smaller scale). In some, this wellspring of power can be shaped and channeled as the user wills and desires (Psion), while others lack the ability to rationally manipulate what's inside them. Instead, the power builds until it erupts, releasing the power in a more limited way but allowing more power to rush out (Wilders).
serow_#R 04-27-07, 09:49 PM	Psionics are classic fantasy to me. Being able to use the XPH to play a "real" mage allows me to appreciate Arcane magic as the silly scifi-inspired aberration that it is. QFT. Spell slots = huh??? I accepted it as a peculiarity of D&D, since every game should have something unique about it. But it doesn't fit my idea of fantasy, or magic.
The Ubbergeek 04-27-07, 10:47 PM	'Circles' and ranks of magic wouldn't be too far from esoterical magic and all.
Nephlite 04-28-07, 11:25 AM	And wilders don't make any sense to me. Sort of like I.T. people don't make any sense to me. I'm gonna go Star trek on you, but Vulcans. Vulcans=Wilders. They have psychic powers when they release their emotions (as seen when that Vulcan ambassador was having mental control issues due to sickness). Very logical and unemotional except for a small time before and after surge. Then they make girls on their period look logical (just a joke, ladies). That is how I've always seen Wilders.
Hida Reju 04-28-07, 12:37 PM	Personally, I always like the distinctions that were used in the Rolemaster RPG. Arcane Magic was manipulation of the external flow of magic that permeated the universe. One had to have easy access to said flow of magic and so it does not allow the use armour or such things that could block the flow. This could be accomplished (in the D&D perspective) through studied repetition of technique (Wizards) or through the innate power of ones bloodline (Sorcerers). Divine Magic was tapping into the magic that naturally geysers from individual gods. This is easier to channel (explaining that Clerics have access to all spells?) and harder to disrupt (allowing the use of armour and such). Psionics was the ability to generate raw magic from within ones own mind (much as do the gods do but on a much, much smaller scale). In some, this wellspring of power can be shaped and channeled as the user wills and desires (Psion), while others lack the ability to rationally manipulate what's inside them. Instead, the power builds until it erupts, releasing the power in a more limited way but allowing more power to rush out (Wilders). I think you Mean Channelling = Divine/external power acting as a conduit Mentalism= Psionic/Mind affecting power Essence= Internal Energy transmutation(I think, I always forget the details on this one) Arcane magic exists in Rolemaster but its kinda like dealing with the outer gods and going insane at best.
QuarianRex 04-28-07, 12:50 PM	I think you Mean Channelling = Divine/external power acting as a conduit Mentalism= Psionic/Mind affecting power Essence= Internal Energy transmutation(I think, I always forget the details on this one) Arcane magic exists in Rolemaster but its kinda like dealing with the outer gods and going insane at best. Nope, I wrote it how I meant it. And basic Rolemester didn't have any real Cthulhu overtones to it.
Ryuu_Tenshi 04-28-07, 01:49 PM	Going back to what other people were saying, I've long been looking for a justification for DnD style arcane magic to exist in fantasy. When I first looked at the game, which was through my mother's Blue Book, I was puzzled by the magic system. It just didn't make sense to me at all. I grew up on Mercedes Lackey and other such fantasy - people either had crazy mental powers or they tapped into flows of energy around them. Or, from other books and types of magic, they generally harnessed some raw crazy force and sprayed it out everywhere, and to make it better they usually had to make some sort of sacrifice. Later I got the 3.0 books and it still didn't make sense. Some of it sort of did - spell components, for instance, hearkened back to the old Eye of Newt business. In fact, the way I began to see DnD magic was more that it wasn't at all something from within, but that you would throw together random... stuff... and this would inform the 'verse that you meant to do something. It never explained, however, spell slots, or why you couldn't just cast spells that only had verbal and somatic components all day... it just... felt awkward. It's funny because 2nd edition and 3.0 made me inherently distrustful of psionics. I initially hated it and wanted nothing to do with it. Then my friend Anguirus introduced me to the 3.5 system properly and it's my favourite thing to play now (particularly shapers. I adore shapers to no end.) It feels more right, to me, that you have a font of mental power which you use to shape reality as you see fit, that certain people can temporarily overcome their limits but at some cost (Overchannel or wilders), or that you can enhance your abilities by spending more energy on them (augments). About the only thing which bothers me about the system as a whole is how limited the variety of powers you have are, and how unlike wizards a psion can only learn so many ways to bend reality. Seriously, how is it that wizards can learn literally hundreds of spells? Wouldn't their brains break? I guess that's why they have to have spellbooks... In the end though I suppose that's more an issue with wizards and its seeming dislike of psionics than anything else. And even so, within the system there is a lot you can do, simply by reflavoring. *shrugs* Psionics feels more like true magic to me, more like forcing your will upon the 'verse to get it to do as you command, rather than this mucking around with bat guano.
Tempest Stormwind 04-28-07, 02:13 PM	On a similar note, hearing Ryuu speak on sympathetic magic reminded me: Has any arcane magic fan actually looked at the components used in some of those spells? They are, quite literally, a bad joke on the player. I know some of you may have read Spider Climb's material component (eating a live spider) and thought "eh... do I have to?". Well, the entire rest of the system is the same, except it's embarrassing rather than unnerving. Examples include: Hypnotic Pattern: It's a freakin' glowstick that you twirl. Your wizard is a raver. Scrying: An eye (which has a lens), copper, zinc, and acid. In other words, you build a tiny TV set, complete with battery, and watch your enemies projected on a silver screen (literally). Flesh to Stone: So, you feel like calcifying flesh? Haste: Liquorice root is a laxative, literally giving you "the runs". Fireball: Guano is full of nitrates, which makes it a great explosive... Lightning Bolt: Now, see, if it were a Van de Graaff generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator) or a Tesla coil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil) in wand form, the components would be esoteric, but delivering a static electric charge by rubbing a rod is just tacky. It was worse in earlier editions when they didn't just leave verbal or somatic components to the imagination. In this edition, I can describe my wizard chanting in Draconic (or just recite some Lovecraftian verses) while tracing glyphs in the air. In earlier ones... well, let's get some examples again. These are all pulled from the original Unearthed Arcana, by E. Gary Gygax himself. I'll just look at the cantrips (most of which have been rolled into the modern Prestidigitation).Dry: ...Verbal component is similar to that of the Dampen cantrip [ed: a low hooting or hummed ditty], and the somatic is a two-handed wringing motion. [Editor: So, you wring something out to dry it? How magical!] Dust: ...Verbal component is a continuous in-drawing of breath, somatic is a back-and-forth hand motion. [Editor: Call me Mr. Hoover.] Exterminate: ...The somatic gesture is a pointed finger, while the caster verbalizes a low zzzt sound. [Editor: ...A bug zapper?] Flavor: ...The verbal component is a muttered lip-smacking sound; the somatic gesture is a shaking motion. [Editor: Yeah, I have a spice rack at home, too, Gary.] Freshen: ...The verbal component is an mmmmmm sound, while the hand makes a mystic symbol with thumb and forefinger forming a circle and the other fingers upright and apart. [Editor: What's so mystic about OK?] Spill: ...To bring about the magic, the caster verbalizes an uh-oh sound while making an abrupt hand motion. [Editor: Uh, oh, I just tipped over my jar of paper clips. That makes me a WIZARD!] Distract: ...The caster speaks an attention-getting word or phrase and gestures to the left or right to effectuate the cantrip. [Editor: Look over there, a three-headed monkey!] Firefinger: ...To bring about the magic of this cnatrip, the caster speaks a word of power over elemental fire (such as ron-son, zip-po, or the much revered word, dun-hill), extends the forefinger, and makes a sideways motion with the thumb. [Editor: ...I'll let those "words of power" speak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronson%27s_Lighters) for (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zippo) themselves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunhill_%28cigar_brand%29). Try the somatic component out yourself for a real groaner, especially if you've worked a camping stove in the past few decades.]I'll stop there. I don't make this **** up, folks! That's all verbatim from the more famous of the game's inventors! You're not a wizard. You're a minimum-wage science center demonstrator / part-time birthday party clown who unabashedly calls what he does "magic". You're not Merlin, you're MacGyver.
Fafnir 04-28-07, 04:16 PM	It would be funny if you just made it up, Tempest. As it is, it's quite sad, really. And the list doesn't end there: Lightning Bolt, True Strike...:rolleyes:
Tempest Stormwind 04-28-07, 04:24 PM	It would be funny if you just made it up, Tempest. As it is, it's quite sad, really. And the list doesn't end there: Lightning Bolt, True Strike...:rolleyes: Actually, I left off True Strike since that's more of a "sympathetic magic" thing rather than a "classroom science" thing. A similar one would be Silent Image -- literally pulling the wool over someone's eyes. I did miss Lightning Bolt and Fireball, though I can't imagine why. A similar one that I'm not mentioning would be Grease -- pouring lard over the floor isn't magic, it's an accident.
Ryuu_Tenshi 04-28-07, 04:30 PM	Great, Tempest. Now whenever I or my players want to build a Wand of Lightning Bold, I'm going to have to insist it be a miniature Tesla coil.
The Ubbergeek 04-28-07, 04:49 PM	Arcane Magic SHOULD be scientifical-like. It's an exploration of the laws of metaphysics, a form of pre-scientific science. In a world where magic as a force(s) exist, it sounds to me utherly logical that arcane magic is like in the books. It's hermetism, like Shadowrun.
Tempest Stormwind 04-28-07, 04:56 PM	Arcane Magic SHOULD be scientifical-like. It's an exploration of the laws of metaphysics, a form of pre-scientific science. In a world where magic as a force(s) exist, it sounds to me utherly logical that arcane magic is like in the books. It's hermetism, like Shadowrun. True, but when I imagine a wizard, I typically imagine someone with knowledge that literally reshapes the world. I don't imagine someone doing the elephant toothpaste trick (http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcK5BvP22d4) while speaking garbled Latin and telling me it was due to his arcane power that the demons invisibly produced something from nothing, and it would really be quite simple to understand if we only understood Relingoff's Accelerator Paradox, but that requires years of study at the foot of a sage to master and I'm a busy man so I don't have time to waste teaching you simpletons the basics of magic now excuse me while I go buy more peroxide. Also, there's nothing utterly logical about most of it. It's just sympathetic magic merged with Jack Vance's sci-fi writings. I've heard it said that someone on ENWorld once developed a quantum theory of magic, similar to how an electron can only exist in discrete shells, to explain why spell levels were discrete, appearing with experience and intelligence like a leap to a new valence. Meanwhile... psionics just use power points. You tell me which is the better description.
aotrscommander 04-28-07, 04:59 PM	I think you Mean Channelling = Divine/external power acting as a conduit Mentalism= Psionic/Mind affecting power Essence= Internal Energy transmutation(I think, I always forget the details on this one) Arcane magic exists in Rolemaster but its kinda like dealing with the outer gods and going insane at best. Rolemaster has umteen sorts of magic overall Essense, Channeling and Mentalism (corresponding to D&D's Arcane and Divine respectively, with Mentalism maybe being psionics). Essense, rather amusingly, made reference to the Force (so there you go, some fantasy in your sci-fi!) On top of that, they had Arcane, a form of ancient and powerful magic that stemmed from elements of all three - did didn't so much send you as was just hard to get hold of. Actually, you needed Arcane magic to counter the Cthulu-type monsters (Nathnarlnachna/Vlathachna). Spacemaster had psionics proper (two systems actually), which were not quite the same thing as mentalism (though there was some overlap). Spacemaster psionics are much closer to D&D psionics1. There was (later) Prosaic magic, which was a kind of everyday magic. (Fear the level 30 Strand Bolt!) Plus elemental companion privided an option for the magic therein to be it's own realm or realms as well. Personally, I don't see a problem in mixing a bit of sci-fi in fantasy - or vice-versa. Heck, I write spells that shoot lasers and have at least one creature that breathes a particle beam as it's breath weapon. (It's also why I don't have a problem with the Orb spells. Lesser Orb of Fire = Blaster, one shot!) so long as it makes a cool noise an is accompanied by shiny lights, I'm happy... 1Come to think of it, I know at least Monte Cook used to write Rolemaster, so it's possible that others now or formerly at WotC did too so maybe there is some permeation through.
Slagger the Chuul 04-29-07, 12:34 AM	One of my favourite settings for the smooth inclusion of psionics in fantasy would have to be Magnamund (from the Lone Wolf books), where the Kai were like psychic rangers, and deadly creatures with mental powers were found in abundance alongside typical magic-users. The main difference I see between psionics and magic is that typical psionic powers produce invisible or insubstantial effects that have a direct impact, while magic is more evident and tangible but operates indirectly through the items it creates. My most common example of this is the traditional magical examples of flight. A magic-user taking flight sits on a broom, rides upon a carpet, changes into a bat, or perhaps grows wings. In each case, magic makes an obvious secondary change to produce the primary result. A psionic-user, on the other hand, lofts up into the air with nothing more than the possible hint of a glow. My own explanation for the reason behind this difference is the origins of both magic and psionics. Magic originates at an earlier point in history, when people generally didn't believe in the power of invisible forces to produce tangible effects (even supernatural forces took corporeal forms when they met with the human world). In order to have a physical effect, there had to be something physical to do the work; some obvious change had to take place (because, for example, people don't normally fly) to allow the extraordinary to work. Psionics, on the other hand, originates rather later in history, at a point where invisible powers like magnetism and radiation had become quite popular and were known to have real effects on the world about them. Like magic, it developed in accord with what people believed about the world. Certain physical things were known to be impossible by ordinary, visible means, so they could only be accomplished by invisible means, or within a person's mind (understanding of the brain and its workings was also developing). While they originate at different points in time, and base their ideas on different concepts, they aren't fundamentally incompatible. The main trouble for D&D is that the lines between them are rather blurred; magic employs a variety of direct, invisible effects (of which telekinesis is perhaps the example most psionic in style), while psionics dabbles in some indirect, visible effects (the energy powers have an unwelcome flavour in this regard). Of course, this is just my personal take, but the style seems better when I adjust at least the descriptions of spells and powers to suit this view. For example, a wizard can grow wings or have his feet supported by cloud without changing the mechanics of the fly spell, while energy ball works just as well with a shimmering blast of heat instead of flames.
ArcTan 04-29-07, 02:11 AM	I say - go read on asian mystique, esoterism and myths, and yoiu can see. Now, somes may say, 'bah! fantasy SHOULD be only european-based'... Well, who said fantasy HAVE to be traditional? The key point is that some guys have a narrow, traditionalist view of what is fantasy, and dismiss anything not in the vein of Leibneir, Tolkien, Morcook (ironicaly, he is atypical and a good example of deviant fantasy), Conan, etc... Conan had psychics in it. It's not actually clear in what sense "psionics" isn't traditional or European, except that it falls into the milieu of magical/esoteric traditions that continued on in the 19th and 20th centuries and got adapted to a slightly more modern lingo. It's not actually different from "magic" in any important way, though.
ArcTan 04-29-07, 02:13 AM	One of my favourite settings for the smooth inclusion of psionics in fantasy would have to be Magnamund (from the Lone Wolf books), where the Kai were like psychic rangers, and deadly creatures with mental powers were found in abundance alongside typical magic-users. The main difference I see between psionics and magic is that typical psionic powers produce invisible or insubstantial effects that have a direct impact, while magic is more evident and tangible but operates indirectly through the items it creates. My most common example of this is the traditional magical examples of flight. A magic-user taking flight sits on a broom, rides upon a carpet, changes into a bat, or perhaps grows wings. In each case, magic makes an obvious secondary change to produce the primary result. A psionic-user, on the other hand, lofts up into the air with nothing more than the possible hint of a glow. My own explanation for the reason behind this difference is the origins of both magic and psionics. Magic originates at an earlier point in history, when people generally didn't believe in the power of invisible forces to produce tangible effects (even supernatural forces took corporeal forms when they met with the human world). In order to have a physical effect, there had to be something physical to do the work; some obvious change had to take place (because, for example, people don't normally fly) to allow the extraordinary to work. Psionics, on the other hand, originates rather later in history, at a point where invisible powers like magnetism and radiation had become quite popular and were known to have real effects on the world about them. Like magic, it developed in accord with what people believed about the world. Certain physical things were known to be impossible by ordinary, visible means, so they could only be accomplished by invisible means, or within a person's mind (understanding of the brain and its workings was also developing). Mmm... except that real historical magical beliefs often *did* involve magical things happening without any obvious physical mechanism, other than words or intentions. ("The evil eye" involves looking at someone to make them ill.) Having visions, being able to hear thoughts, all these things have a pretty old pedigree long before Faraday's experiments. Psionics is a word for magic that had some of the juju of the post-Faraday post-Marconi world used to label it -- "fields" and "radiations" and "energies" and things -- but I don't think it's as new as all that, and it's not like the history of parapsychology doesn't *also* involve a whole lot of physical objects or tools -- crystals as a focus being the most obvious and stereotypical example that D&D has jumped on so wholeheartedly.
ArcTan 04-29-07, 02:17 AM	On a similar note, hearing Ryuu speak on sympathetic magic reminded me: Has any arcane magic fan actually looked at the components used in some of those spells? They are, quite literally, a bad joke on the player. I know some of you may have read Spider Climb's material component (eating a live spider) and thought "eh... do I have to?". Well, the entire rest of the system is the same, except it's embarrassing rather than unnerving. Examples include: Hypnotic Pattern: It's a freakin' glowstick that you twirl. Your wizard is a raver. Scrying: An eye (which has a lens), copper, zinc, and acid. In other words, you build a tiny TV set, complete with battery, and watch your enemies projected on a silver screen (literally). Flesh to Stone: So, you feel like calcifying flesh? Haste: Liquorice root is a laxative, literally giving you "the runs". Fireball: Guano is full of nitrates, which makes it a great explosive... Lightning Bolt: Now, see, if it were a Van de Graaff generator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_de_Graaff_generator) or a Tesla coil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil) in wand form, the components would be esoteric, but delivering a static electric charge by rubbing a rod is just tacky. It was worse in earlier editions when they didn't just leave verbal or somatic components to the imagination. In this edition, I can describe my wizard chanting in Draconic (or just recite some Lovecraftian verses) while tracing glyphs in the air. In earlier ones... well, let's get some examples again. These are all pulled from the original Unearthed Arcana, by E. Gary Gygax himself. I'll just look at the cantrips (most of which have been rolled into the modern Prestidigitation).I'll stop there. I don't make this **** up, folks! That's all verbatim from the more famous of the game's inventors! You're not a wizard. You're a minimum-wage science center demonstrator / part-time birthday party clown who unabashedly calls what he does "magic". You're not Merlin, you're MacGyver. Yes. E. Gary Gygax had the annoying habit of himself never quite seeming to take the game or its setting seriously, even when insisting that other people do so.
calronmoonflower 04-29-07, 03:14 AM	Oracles and seerers occur in almost any mythology. The main reason psionics seems to stick out is they where given scientific sounding names in a attempt to classify them. Here is a short list of psionic abilities without those names. second sight evil eye (as listed above) intuition, gut instinct, ect fortune telling (with or without props) spider sense (yes spiderman can be called a psychic) talking to the dead dream reading talking to animal (like the beastmaster)
TikiMan 04-29-07, 03:17 PM	You know, I couldn't care less about the flavor. As has been shown here, people have widely disparate ideas about magic and psionics. Everyone has their own flavor. Fmeh, so what. The reason I use psionics is because it's just plain easier to deal with. When I'm making a character for someone new to the game, and I'm hearing all of the powers they want, spell slots simply will not do. They're klunky at best, and they don't usually make sense. Now a point based system where they have a menu of abilities to pump power into? That makes sense to pretty much anyone, and fits their character ideas pretty well. And it can wear armor. And it doesn't rely on quite so many save-or-be-screwed effects. And the character doesn't have to do the hokey-poky. So not only are the base mechanics better in my opinion, but modifying the base mechanics is insanely easier then dealing with spell slots. For old gamers and noobs alike it just helps take the attention off esoteric rules and back on the characters.
Slagger the Chuul 04-29-07, 11:56 PM	Mmm... except that real historical magical beliefs often *did* involve magical things happening without any obvious physical mechanism, other than words or intentions. ("The evil eye" involves looking at someone to make them ill.) Having visions, being able to hear thoughts, all these things have a pretty old pedigree long before Faraday's experiments. I admit these, but the point I'm aiming at is that none of them produced overt physical effects. The "evil eye" comes closest, but causing someone to develop a sickness or even die without apparent cause isn't in the same category of gross change as lifting someone into the air or producing flames from nothing. Psionics is a word for magic that had some of the juju of the post-Faraday post-Marconi world used to label it -- "fields" and "radiations" and "energies" and things -- but I don't think it's as new as all that, and it's not like the history of parapsychology doesn't *also* involve a whole lot of physical objects or tools -- crystals as a focus being the most obvious and stereotypical example that D&D has jumped on so wholeheartedly. I agree that crystals and such were used as tools, but they were a way to enact psionic effects, rather than the result of those effects. Psionics is certainly just a word for magic from a particular worldview, but it applies the perceptions of that worldview to the style of its effects. The distinction I make between psionics and magic in this regard is about the way they produce physical effects; the application of nonphysical effects (like seeing visions and hearing thoughts) is essentially the same for psionic and magic. As calronmoonflower has listed just above, there are a number of psionic effects that don't bear more modern names, and I think we can agree that they all deal with intangible effects.
calronmoonflower 04-30-07, 12:16 AM	As calronmoonflower has listed just above, there are a number of psionic effects that don't bear more modern names, and I think we can agree that they all deal with intangible effects. Actually I listed what they are called without those names. All, but one or two of those have modern names. Also it should be noted that magic and psychic are actually synonyms (as an adverb). If you don't believe my check a thesaurus.
Slagger the Chuul 05-01-07, 01:29 AM	Actually I listed what they are called without those names. All, but one or two of those have modern names. I suppose to put what I'm talking about more correctly, those potentially magical abilities (for which your listing was a convenient reference example) with their appropriate psionic counterparts are ones that don't produce tangible effects. Also it should be noted that magic and psychic are actually synonyms (as an adverb). If you don't believe my check a thesaurus. That's true, although like most synonyms, there are differences in the exact meaning of the words. While both "magic" and "psychic" describe supernatural effects, there's a subtle difference in style. And, of course, "psionic" has its own inflections (which include a tendency towards the invisible and intangible).
MerlintheTuna 05-02-07, 06:02 AM	I've heard it said that someone on ENWorld once developed a quantum theory of magic, similar to how an electron can only exist in discrete shells, to explain why spell levels were discrete, appearing with experience and intelligence like a leap to a new valence.That's more or less how I resolve issues like magic items; treat a magical sword as if it were a Bohr atom and you don't end up wondering why there aren't any +4.1 or +3.9 swords. For spell levels, I actually got a flash of inspiration from the Psionic Naruto builds thread and pulled some ideas from the anime -- each spell level requires as many seals to be properly formed in its casting. So Expeditious Retreat requires 1 seal, Glitterdust needs 2, Haste needs 3, and so on. I like having an in-game way to refer to metagame concepts (see also "Holy balls, that guy just cast a 7th level spell and we're only 8th level!"), and the inability to cast higher level spells can just get chalked up to lacking the control/energy reserves to pull anything off. It's still not as elegant as spellpoints, but it's something. I also feel like the above is one of the biggest problems with current magic (and the preparative casters in particular - I've got very little ill will to the spontaneous guys). It's such a ridiculous system that, in order to justify having it, people have to come up with their own bizarre interpretations of it, which they then use to entrench themselves in an ridiculous "VANCIAN MAGIC HAS MORE FLAVOR" position whenever alternatives get brought up.
aotrscommander 05-02-07, 06:18 AM	For spell levels, I actually got a flash of inspiration from the Psionic Naruto builds thread and pulled some ideas from the anime -- each spell level requires as many seals to be properly formed in its casting. So Expeditious Retreat requires 1 seal, Glitterdust needs 2, Haste needs 3, and so on. I like having an in-game way to refer to metagame concepts (see also "Holy balls, that guy just cast a 7th level spell and we're only 8th level!"), and the inability to cast higher level spells can just get chalked up to lacking the control/energy reserves to pull anything off. It's still not as elegant as spellpoints, but it's something. I also feel like the above is one of the biggest problems with current magic (and the preparative casters in particular - I've got very little ill will to the spontaneous guys). It's such a ridiculous system that, in order to justify having it, people have to come up with their own bizarre interpretations of it, which they then use to entrench themselves in an ridiculous "VANCIAN MAGIC HAS MORE FLAVOR" position whenever alternatives get brought up. Huh. That's a damn nice idea, actually! I feel pretty damn stupid for not thinking of it myself, actually (seeing as how I even made a frag-damn class wherein I used hand-seals!) So, add that to the list of 'good' reasons to explain Vancian casting. Though I have to agree, part of the problems is that we do have to explain Vancian in-game at all. (Mind you, you could make the same arguments about some of the other in-game (class) features, too!) (I should note that myself, I'm playing around with a variant Mana system that it neither Vancian nor spell-points. *Shrug* It works for Rolemaster and Warhammer, so...)
Bedlamtom 05-04-07, 02:42 PM	Justification for Psionics in Fantasy? Here's three instances of well-known fantasy literature that explictly use psionics: Katherine Kurtz; The Deryni Series; the entire *reason* psionics is in D&D Julie Dean Smith; Sage of Sare series; I believe it's even explictly called psionics, or at least "mind-magic" Mercedes Lackey; The Valdemar series, esp. the Last Mage trilogy; not just psionics, but psionics and magic coexisting You are forgetting the 1st and biggest. MZB's Darkover series.
Lycanthromancer 05-04-07, 05:39 PM	The only series of books that I've ever read that even comes close to D&D spellcasting (other than actual D&D books) is Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, and that's just because he's making fun of the whole thing. The mechanics for psionics, however, would very easily portray any number of fantastical settings: Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time Christopher Paolini's Eragon (verbal components notwithstanding) Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth David & Leigh Edding's Belgariad et al Even Dragonball Z What are the justifications for psionics in fantasy? The fact that it IS fantasy, and it's better fantasy than the Vancian crap magic-users use.
Tempest Stormwind 05-04-07, 05:53 PM	The only series of books that I've ever read that even comes close to D&D spellcasting (other than actual D&D books) is Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, and that's just because he's making fun of the whole thing.I should note there that he discusses multiple forms of magic. Wizards approach problems logically. Older wizards are full of tradition and ritual. Younger wizards are a bit more like scientists -- Ponder Stibbons is pretty much like every physics professor I know. Witches are almost the opposite. The young ones are like modern emo goths who figure that being Wiccan is cool, that black eyeliner is the way to go, and that there has to be rank, order, and ritual. Older witches -- Granny Weatherwax in particular -- don't have with that sort of thing, and actually withhold from doing true "magic" when it isn't necessary (i.e. if you can psychologically trick someone into solving their own problem, why waste a spell on them?). Furthermore, earlier books actually explain wizardly spellcasting -- one actually references a pocketful of good spells and a well-charged staff, suggesting something far closer to FF7's materia system than anything else. Even earlier books DO mention components (drawing the symbols of a spell, for instance), but they put even further emphasis on the staff rather than knowledge of spells -- Eskarina becomes a wizard simply by inheriting a staff, for instance. Witch spellcasting is different -- while some witches do enjoy chanting and whatnot, there's never much ritual involved (Granny blocks a sword with her hand and empathically burns another witch without even so much as a syllable) unless the spell is HUGE (as in, let's Time Hop the whole kingdom twenty years into the future). This says nothing of the few other magical effects we see -- anything associated with Death, for instance (Susan stepping out of time or through doors comes to mind), the high priests accusing each other of calling to their gods for lightning ("All right, fellows, which of you did that?" "Offler is a vengeful god!" "Trigger-happy is what he is."), or the History Monks (which resembles nothing so much as a persistent bullet-time effect similar to Temporal Acceleration or the Bene Gesserit martial arts from Dune -- the latter especially in the case of Deja Fu*), or the elves, or the vampyres, or... you get the idea. Even Pratchett's Discworld magic is questionable if compared to Vancian. * Quite possibly the best single pun in the entire series, and the best possible name for a martial art based on slicing time.
Hirochicken 05-04-07, 06:44 PM	Deja Fu I know what school of martial arts my next Psionic Monk will be from. :D
hiryuu 05-04-07, 07:23 PM	There's the Siberian samans (sic) and their psychopomps: quite possibly one of the oldest forms of traditionalist "magic": people who (according to tradition, mind you) mentally anchored themselves to the fundamental energies of their reality to project themselves into the realm of the dead to insure that the dying got to where they needed to be. Then there's the term "yoga" and "yogi," both of which come from a root word (yuj) meaning "to yoke," which is a practice meant to "attach" the soul to the greater fundamental forces of the universe, in the hopes that the practitioner will eventually learn to literally believe the laws of the universe out of existence. Its foundation lies in the Upanishads, the earliest of which was written around 800 BCE (if I'm remembering correctly).
Eled_the_Worm_Tamer 05-04-07, 08:04 PM	Arcane magic: Harnesing of external forces by ritual, in order to generate specific effects. Devine magic: Chaneling of devine force via ritual to generate specific effects. Psionics: Use of ones inner potental to directly generate chosen effects. This rather neatly explains to me the 3 disaplines diferent styles. Arcane casters tap the forces of th uniferce raveling and unraveling the primal skein, flashy magic and mentaly taxing, or by pure force of will lever thhose forces to there needs. The Devine moves the gods, whose basic outlook affects those who protect the Flock (Chanel positave energy) or scorge the unbelevers (Chanel negitave energy) Psionicists look inwards, finding within themselves the power to alter the universe, doing so without ritual or overmuch fanfare.
taltamir 05-04-07, 09:22 PM	The only series of books that I've ever read that even comes close to D&D spellcasting (other than actual D&D books) is Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, and that's just because he's making fun of the whole thing. The mechanics for psionics, however, would very easily portray any number of fantastical settings: Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time Christopher Paolini's Eragon (verbal components notwithstanding) Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth David & Leigh Edding's Belgariad et al Even Dragonball Z What are the justifications for psionics in fantasy? The fact that it IS fantasy, and it's better fantasy than the Vancian crap magic-users use. Ironically, he personally WROTE a Diskworld roleplaying game based on a GURPS. Also, how come noone mentioned SORCERERS yet :). If you think its bad that a wizard has to hold up bat guano while chanting the magical words of zippo. Then think of the poor sorcerer who through powers of magical intuition... figures out that he needs to hold up guano while chanting the magical words of zippo in order to cast a fireball... and he cannot figure out more then X spells per level without CHOOSING to FORGET how to cast other spells... Any person who knows spellcraft can look at him and tell EXACTLY what he is casting... but he is not a wizard, oh no, he does NEED a book, because he remembers the spells, which he invented himself, unless he chooses to forget them. Bah! I like the naruto seals idea... except that again it contradicts the way magic works. Aside from the obviousness of the components. In the hour of preparation you CAST ALL SPELLS up to a special BREAKING POINT, when you finish the spell later on it goes off... This gets worse when you add things like quicken to it. But still, the naruto seals type is the closest anyone got... Except, if a sorcerer casts the EXACT SAME SPELL he does NOT need to cast the first five minutes of it in the morning and then finish it later. He just does the FINISHING part which is exactly the same, to the point that anyone looking at him can identify the spell being cast... Speaking of naruto, the author wrote that he originally wrote an old draft of a boy who goes a wizard university called naruto, where he learns and blah blah... But he was working on another project, when he came back to it harry potter was popular and he knew people would say its a ripoff, so he changed it into ninjas with "chi powers"... So the reason why it is so magical in nature and can be used to explain magic systems is because it is the story of a boy wizard story told in a "ninja" setting.
The Ubbergeek 05-05-07, 10:31 AM	'Magic' means a lot of things. There is not hard and fast definition of what is magic, except maybe 'what is beyond the laws of nature'. The vancian system is as magic as psionic, whom are not very occidental in mindset at the base though. No ancient or middle age occidental thought about the might of the mind when thinking of magic, but very vancian sympathetic links,a nalogies, incantations, etc... Naruto had nothing to do with western wizardry, but it's drawn from asian (especially japanese) mysticism and esoterism - like shugenja, quigong and all. It's also inspired by earlier works like Dragonball and Fist of the North Star (the mangaka cite FONS have one of his favorite anime, he used to watch it as a kid btw). (Amusing how D&D is so divised.... psionic vs magic, settings against settings...)
GuardianLurker 05-05-07, 01:30 PM	You are forgetting the 1st and biggest. MZB's Darkover series. You mean the Darkover series that are set on a failed/regressed extraterrestrial colony? ;) Yeah, it's fantasy, but it isn't a pure fantasy series, because it has that scifi wash. It's also why I dropped the Pern books (Telepathic Dragons!). In terms of duplicating Arcane (!) magic/D&D in literature, the best series I've seen so far is Lawrence Watt-Evan's Ethshar series - the Misenchanted Sword is particularly obvious. An while I like the Belgariad, D&D psionics isn't the best way to model it, but I will say that psionics is closer than the normal Arcane/Divine system. (For the record, the best way would probably be GURPS or Fantasy Hero, but that's a different thread entirely.)
Regularguy 05-06-07, 06:27 PM	In terms of duplicating Arcane (!) magic/D&D in literature, the best series I've seen so far is Lawrence Watt-Evan's Ethshar series - the Misenchanted Sword is particularly obvious. That said, the Ethshar series also sets out a different role for witchcraft: instead of spell components and ritual techniques and all the rest as employed by wizards, other folks have learned to rely on eerie telekinetic and rejuvenation effects fueled by the practitioner's own body. Which is pretty danged close to psionics. And while it's decidedly lighthearted, there's also the Myth Adventures books: sure, they say the main character is a magician, but he never actually casts spells; no rituals, no components, no nothing, he just concentrates a lot to levitate stuff or maybe spark a fire with pure mind power or whatever. Oh, there's plenty of magic; he makes use of various enchanted items, rings and potions and wands and amulets -- often while lamenting that he has absolutely no idea how to make 'em. He didn't study that. He studied this. And, come to think of it, I guess there's MASTER OF THE FIVE MAGICS: one discipline is the basic arcane wonder-working, with magic-word incantations and spell components; another is the art of summoning entities from other realms, by properly using the right materials; and yet another involves painstaking rituals that take years or even decades to create mighty enchanted items -- not to be confused with those brewed up by the quick-and-dirty techniques of alchemy, which can't really do much but can at least do it fast if you've got the right stuff on hand. But then there's a fifth magic, too: the classic "look into my eyes and be subject to my will" effects, with a little second sight thrown in. No components for this one, and (as the author goes out of his way to emphasize) no written instructions, either; just a gradual drain on the master of mesmerism.
ArcTan 05-06-07, 08:35 PM	'Magic' means a lot of things. There is not hard and fast definition of what is magic, except maybe 'what is beyond the laws of nature'. The vancian system is as magic as psionic, whom are not very occidental in mindset at the base though. No ancient or middle age occidental thought about the might of the mind when thinking of magic, but very vancian sympathetic links,a nalogies, incantations, etc... None of those words has anything to do with the word "Vancian", which specifically refers to the whole "learn something and have it wiped from your mind when you use it" thing that Jack Vance made up. I would argue that the concepts of sympathetic links and such are just as present (and just as absent) in psionics as in arcane magic.
taltamir 05-07-07, 12:11 AM	None of those words has anything to do with the word "Vancian", which specifically refers to the whole "learn something and have it wiped from your mind when you use it" thing that Jack Vance made up. Biggest misunderstanding, clearly you have NOT read the part about wizards carefully... A wizard CASTS a spell up to a breaking point, and later he FINISHES the spell which was stored, half cast, in his mind. Should he choose to, he can prepare a blank slot that may be filled later in a day by casting the spell up to its breaking point (15 min to an hour process). AND, the wizard may use feats to memorize spells so that he can prepare them without a book, in fact EVERY wizard automatically gets that with read magic, which they can prepare without a book. The feat is called spell knowledge, i think, and it allows you to memorize 1 spell that you know and is your spell book per intelligence modifier every time you take that feat. When you learn a spell you don't MEMORIZE it, you figure out how it works and understand it. Its cheaper to replace a lost spell book then learning things to first time. When you learn a spell you have to spend time analyzing the spell with the person who scribed it helping you, or by yourself using spell craft, to see if you can figure out how it really works, then you write it in your own unique notation in your spell book. But you dont actually MEMORIZE said spell unless you take the feat.. (and thats why you need the spellbook to prepare)... I beleive this misunderstanding either comes from previous incarnation of the explanation (since early dnd versions did not take the game very seriously and were full of bad jokes, and the joke was on the players), or maybe from famous DnD books like dragonlance... who knows really.
hiryuu 05-07-07, 12:20 AM	Biggest misunderstanding, clearly you have NOT read the part about wizards carefully... A wizard CASTS a spell up to a breaking point, and later he FINISHES the spell which was stored, half cast, in his mind. Should he choose to, he can prepare a blank slot that may be filled later in a day by casting the spell up to its breaking point (15 min to an hour process). AND, the wizard may use feats to memorize spells so that he can prepare them without a book, in fact EVERY wizard automatically gets that with read magic, which they can prepare without a book. The feat is called spell knowledge, i think, and it allows you to memorize 1 spell that you know and is your spell book per intelligence modifier every time you take that feat. When you learn a spell you don't MEMORIZE it, you figure out how it works and understand it. Its cheaper to replace a lost spell book then learning things to first time. When you learn a spell you have to spend time analyzing the spell with the person who scribed it helping you, or by yourself using spell craft, to see if you can figure out how it really works, then you write it in your own unique notation in your spell book. But you dont actually MEMORIZE said spell unless you take the feat.. (and thats why you need the spellbook to prepare)... I beleive this misunderstanding either comes from previous incarnation of the explanation (since early dnd versions did not take the game very seriously and were full of bad jokes, and the joke was on the players), or maybe from famous DnD books like dragonlance... who knows really. Up until 3E, you used to literally forget the spells you read that morning, which was a constant source of complaint. They retained the mechanics and the explanation for 3E, but just changed the wording slightly to make it more edible to the player. It's still, at its core, a "fire and forget" system, no matter what flavor wording they try to use.
Salla 05-07-07, 12:24 AM	Wizard's spell-preparation used to be called memorization (in previous editions), whereas now it's called preparation. The overall effect is the same (fire-and-forget), though the specific details of operation differ. Anyway, this thread reminds me of one of the reasons I game instead of reading novels ... I have no preconceptions about what Fantasy is. I was once asked (online) why I used psionics, and was asked to name one fantasy series where they featured predominantly. I responded that I couldn't because I've never read a fantasy novel, and that it doesn't matter because I'm creating my own world and story and not playing someone else's. So if I want Psionics, I use Psionics. :)
Azoriel 05-07-07, 12:54 AM	Given that psionics has gained more association with aberrations rather than outsiders, I view it as a strange form of magic originally practiced on the Far Realm, introduced to the material planes not by outsiders, but by the aboleths. This goes a long way to explain why psionic powers bear little resemblance to the standard form that non-arcane/non-divine magic usually takes (spell-like abilities), and also pushes D&D psionics further away from the sci-fi niche of merely being advanced mental powers.
Pandaemoni 05-07-07, 03:07 AM	I like both, though I do prefer to reflavor psionics slightly. I tend to treat psionics as magic that is manifested through force of will—a flow of internal power. Arcane magic is the manipulation of external flows of energy. Spell slots do not bother me even slightly. Folklore has the notion of more powerful magicians being able to channel and control greater and greater magical effects. Spell slots and free scaling based on caster level are just a mechanical method of approximating this. It's not really much different than the power point mechanism (with the cap on power points a manifester can spend). The power points mechanism (with its various limits on the "level" of the powers a manifester may know) is a more flexible mechanic but that flexibility isn't necessarily closer or further to the folkloric flavor of the way magic works as casters become more powerful as I see it.
Archangel62 05-07-07, 04:16 AM	Psionics is simply a different aspect of magic, imagine magic not as some universal force but instead as a sort of beam of light reflected through prisms, the arcane uses formulae or force of will, divine uses faith or foci, psionics uses inward focus drawing energies to culminate. I also remember a series of books back when I was around 10 called Diadem. Kids books but the concept was that magic utilized Name, Form, and Substance, that each part was a key to overall magic. Also, they used gems to focus different aspects of magic and they also tended to work based more on energy and a full series of rather odd rules. To put it simply it fit the current psionics system rather swimmingly.
taltamir 05-08-07, 02:28 AM	well, spell slots really doesn't fit any fantasy novel ever written except for ones based on GAMES (DnD, maybe something else). For the simple reason that you can exhaust your LOW level spells while retaining your HIGH level spells... Wizard: I am sorry, I can't cast any more minor images, I already cast 3 today, I can only cast MAJOR images now... NO, just no. Any system that doesn't use power points is not worth using at all.
Omen_of_Peace 05-08-07, 05:13 PM	In Zelazny's Amber (the second series), Merlin prepares spells in advance up to a certain point. Then adds the missing "lynchpins" when he actually casts. No apparent slots/level limit, but very much preparation + fire-and-forget. And it's one of the best fantasy series ever written. [I doubt Zelazny was inspired by DnD, but maybe somebody more knowledgeable will prove me wrong.] Any system that doesn't use power points is not worth using at all. That's a strong statement. Personally I like both systems ; each has some dose of arbitrary - and it can't be helped.
Batshido 05-08-07, 05:38 PM	That's a strong statement. Personally I like both systems ; each has some dose of arbitrary - and it can't be helped. I completely understand where you're coming from with this one, but lets look at it this way: If this thread was called "Justification for Discreet Spell Slot Preparation in fantasy," what would the responses look like? ;)
Tempest Stormwind 05-08-07, 06:13 PM	If this thread was called "Justification for Discreet Spell Slot Preparation in fantasy," what would the responses look like? ;)Ooh, ooh, I know! "Umm.... Vance? Oh, maybe Salvatore? No, wait, that was a D&D book. Hmm..."
Omen_of_Peace 05-08-07, 07:05 PM	If this thread was called "Justification for Discreet Spell Slot Preparation in fantasy," what would the responses look like? ;) *And* we are on the Psionics forum... I know, I know. But, hey, you're pushing it : the title of the thread isn't "Justification for Power Points in fantasy". :)
taltamir 05-08-07, 08:37 PM	A strong statement, and highly justified. Well, although that was because at the time I couldn't think of anything other then slots and points... but in retrospect, there is also the unlimited system, that works out pretty well too... So I would like to change that to any system that uses slots is not worth using... (and thats not just DnD... some CRPGs do that too.)
Batshido 05-08-07, 09:17 PM	*And* we are on the Psionics forum... I know, I know. We are, but honestly that has nothing (well, very very little anyway) to do with it. My girlfriend started playing with us a couple years ago. She's a huge LoTR fan, so she wanted to play a Wizard. Like Gandalf. I explained to her the idea of preparing all your spells at the beginning of the day, with the idea that those were all you got. She said (and I'm paraphrasing a bit here, it was over 2 years ago): "That's stupid. So I have to pick a few of the things I KNOW HOW TO DO ahead of time, so that I can actually do them today, while basically forgetting EVERYTHING ELSE I KNOW. Then, over the course of my day, I use up specific portions of my magic and eventually I'm left only with specific options, rather than the ability to improvise. I'm not a wizard, I'm a magical missle-launcher. You'd have thought that over the hundreds or thousands of years they spent developing magical theory they would have found a better way." You know what, she was right. Gandalf never would have stood for that crap. He woulda done better. ;)
Lycanthromancer 05-08-07, 09:23 PM	Oooooh. I want a girlfriend like that. Can I have her? Pleeeeease?
taltamir 05-08-07, 09:23 PM	haha... as would anyone who actually learned how the system works... Originally I played wizards, because I WANTED to play a capital W, WIZARD. But then I realized thats not what "wizards" are in DnD... Want a wizard? Well, I used to think it was impossible, but I would try playing a psion who is actually a wizard next time and see if it works out.
Batshido 05-08-07, 09:30 PM	Oooooh. I want a girlfriend like that. Can I have her? Pleeeeease? Nope, she's mine. ;) They're a rare breed to be sure, but if you know where to look they can be found. :)
taltamir 05-08-07, 09:32 PM	delete
Lycanthromancer 05-08-07, 09:32 PM	Meh. I'll just find one for myself, then. And I DO live outside of a baseme...erm...well, I do live in a below-ground apartment... ... ... ... Shutup. :)
Tempest Stormwind 05-08-07, 09:37 PM	Meh. I'll just find one for myself, then. One better. She flipped through my D&D books of her own volition, read the fluff about psicrystals (before reading the PHB) and literally went "Oh, NEAT! It's like an advanced type of familiar!" ...She doesn't yet play with us, but I blame that on her introversion and the lack of any good local DM.
Lycanthromancer 05-08-07, 09:39 PM	*Psigh.* I seriously need to get out more.
Batshido 05-08-07, 09:47 PM	*Psigh.* I seriously need to get out more. Yes, yes you do. :p I've never gamed in Wichita, but in pretty much every hobby shop/comic book store I've ever been to there is some sort of female presence, however small. I would start there. :cool:
Hirochicken 05-08-07, 09:49 PM	One better. She flipped through my D&D books of her own volition, read the fluff about psicrystals (before reading the PHB) and literally went "Oh, NEAT! It's like an advanced type of familiar!" ...She doesn't yet play with us, but I blame that on her introversion and the lack of any good local DM. I remember when my fiance asked to look through my PHB. She even called it "P-H-B" instead of "Players Handbook". She then asked what would be good classes for her to play as. :cool:
Lycanthromancer 05-08-07, 09:51 PM	I did meet a girl today that was excessively excited about the Renaissance Fair a few weeks ago. She loved the floppy leather hats, but was bummed that they were so expensive. I do believe, however, that she's about 11 years younger than me...
taltamir 05-08-07, 09:57 PM	oooh, I met some nice girls in the ren fair... Always a great place to pick up girls... You already know for sure that they are with cos play :)
Omen_of_Peace 05-08-07, 09:59 PM	"That's stupid. So I have to pick a few of the things I KNOW HOW TO DO ahead of time, so that I can actually do them today, while basically forgetting EVERYTHING ELSE I KNOW. Then, over the course of my day, I use up specific portions of my magic and eventually I'm left only with specific options, rather than the ability to improvise. I'm not a wizard, I'm a magical missle-launcher. You'd have thought that over the hundreds or thousands of years they spent developing magical theory they would have found a better way." I'm going to be a bit provocative, but it's all in good fun. :) Doesn't the "while basically forgetting EVERYTHING ELSE I KNOW [...] and eventually I'm left only with specific options, rather than the ability to improvise." sound more like an Erudite ? So, people may not like spell preparation, but I don't think it is hard to understand (or is it simply that I am a Zelazny zealot and/or I've gotten used to playing wizards ?). Slots are harder... the only thing in their favor I can come up with right now is that it makes a spell something whole ; whereas with PP I sometimes get the feeling I am counting the cash I have to hand to a cashier (the DM ?)... This is not a strong argument, of course. You know what, she was right. Gandalf never would have stood for that crap. He woulda done better. ;) Well, Gandalf wasn't doing a lot of DnD magic anyway ; he was mostly inspiring others. Bard, anyone ? edit: I would say, let's not derail the thread with Gandalf, but we're talking about girls and Renaissance fairs anyway. ;)
Batshido 05-08-07, 10:20 PM	I'm going to be a bit provocative, but it's all in good fun. :) Provoke away. :) Doesn't the "while basically forgetting EVERYTHING ELSE I KNOW [...] and eventually I'm left only with specific options, rather than the ability to improvise." sound more like an Erudite ? So, people may not like spell preparation, but I don't think it is hard to understand (or is it simply that I am a Zelazny zealot and/or I've gotten used to playing wizards ?). The thing to remember is that with the Erudite, it is a much more organic process. You decide what to use as it becomes necessary. There is a long term planning aspect to it, as far as "will this be useful all day" but all told, it makes a lot more sense than deciding what you can do for the day before it even starts. Also, once the powers chosen by an Erudite aren't expended. It feels more like "ok I proved I can do that, so I can do it again." As opposed to the more Vancian "ok, I could do that a second ago, but now I can't anymore." Slots are harder... the only thing in their favor I can come up with right now is that it makes a spell something whole ; whereas with PP I sometimes get the feeling I am counting the cash I have to hand to a cashier (the DM ?)... This is not a strong argument, of course. You're right. That's a pretty weak argument. The idea that magic has what amount to valence levels, by which I mean discreet levels upon one of which a spell MUST exist, is kind of crazy, don't you think? Magic is always portrayed as dynamic and versatile, and in this system it inherently lacks both those qualities. Well, Gandalf wasn't doing a lot of DnD magic anyway ; he was mostly inspiring others. Bard, anyone ? I would have to agree with you there. Gandalf doesn't really fill the same role that a Wizard would in a traditional party, but then Strider, the archetypal Ranger (which I always thought was a load anyway) demonstrates many qualities that don't fit that class either (like Heavy Armor Proficiency and a proclivity for leadership), while lacking others that we take for granted (like animal companion and Wild Empathy). Bottom line; Tolkien is not D&D, but anyone who's taken a reasonable look at it could tell you that. Ok, rant over. On topic, the way I see it power points do a lot better job of simulating the abilities of magic as it is presented in the vast majority of fantasy literature, with the added bonus of not breaking the game like high level Vancian spellcasting.
Omen_of_Peace 05-09-07, 02:12 AM	The thing to remember is that with the Erudite, it is a much more organic process. You decide what to use as it becomes necessary. There is a long term planning aspect to it, as far as "will this be useful all day" but all told, it makes a lot more sense than deciding what you can do for the day before it even starts. The wizard can cast spells as he goes. He just needs 15 min each time ! Each wizard spell is like a small ritual ; if he wants to be able to cast them quickly, he needs to prepare them. Like I said, people may not like spell preparation, but it's defendable. Maybe you should simply rename "wizards" to something else (arcanists ? ritualists ? no, that sounds horrible). I agree with you what are saying on the Erudite. I was actually referring to the point where he's chosen all his powers for the day : he may still have power points, but the knowledge of his other powers is locked away. Also, once the powers chosen by an Erudite aren't expended. It feels more like "ok I proved I can do that, so I can do it again." As opposed to the more Vancian "ok, I could do that a second ago, but now I can't anymore." See above. Having a "power slot" left for the Erudite is like having an empty slot for the wizard, except the wizard needs to prepare. You're right. That's a pretty weak argument. I'm hurt. :) Well, maybe I didn't convey the idea very well - at least it makes sense to me. The idea that magic has what amount to valence levels, by which I mean discreet levels upon one of which a spell MUST exist, is kind of crazy, don't you think? Magic is always portrayed as dynamic and versatile, and in this system it inherently lacks both those qualities. Everything is discrete in D&D : power points are valence levels too. But if you mean that PP are a lot more refined than slots, then sure ! [snip LotR stuff] On topic, the way I see it power points do a lot better job of simulating the abilities of magic as it is presented in the vast majority of fantasy literature, with the added bonus of not breaking the game like high level Vancian spellcasting. I think neither of them does a good job but I just forget about it while playing. I do think slots are an even worse representation than PP - we agree on that much. I thought it was interesting when Eddings was pointed out, because willpower is indeed a determining factor in the Belgariad sorcery; other than that, most series I know don't really fit. Including my current favorite, the Malazan Book of the Fallen (S. Erikson) - which I heartily recommend by the way.
nobodez 05-09-07, 02:36 AM	The fire-and-forget model is why I haven't played a wizard in over five years. They just don't do it for me. Clerics and Druids are nearly as bad, though they have the whole "spontaneous" spell thing, so if all else fails cure/summon. My favorite PH spellcasting classes are the Bard and the Sorcerer, the pure spontaneous casters. Sure they may not know many spells, but at least they know them all the time! Aside from psionics (which I've used all of once in a homegame, and maybe twice online, no one seems to like them), my favorite "casters" are the spontaneous ones. Bards, Sorcerers, Favored Souls, Spirit Shamans (I had a very nasty Horc once), Warlocks, Totemists, Shadowcasters, and any others. I don't like being tied down, never having a good option because those options weren't prepared at the beginning of the day. In fact, if I had may way, there would never be a prepared caster in my games. The divine casters would use the Spirit Shaman model of spontaneous casting, the arcane casters would use the Sorcerer model, and the psions would rule the world!
Varl 05-09-07, 11:23 AM	In fact, if I had may way, there would never be a prepared caster in my games. The divine casters would use the Spirit Shaman model of spontaneous casting, the arcane casters would use the Sorcerer model, and the psions would rule the world! That's the beauty of D&D: you can have it your way (and that way). I also prefer spontaneous spellcasters, but only for priests, since their magic is divinely given. Mages keep the premem requirement. Psionicists can also manifest freely because they're restricted by PSPs. And so it is in my games. :D
Mirannan 05-09-07, 02:13 PM	Wizardly magic ought to be very much like a science, and be thought of as such by its practitioners; do this and that in the other way and get a result, in a repeatable fashion. Then spell and magic item research becomes similar to applied science/technology, but obviously using different laws (contagion, similarity, duality and so on). It is stated in 2nd edition (not sure about 3rd) that all wizards draw power from another dimension for their spells, using a tiny portion of their own life energy as a catalyst. Hence the requirement for high intelligence for wizards; the relationships between different planes of existence would be complicated! This particularly applies to dimensionalist magic such as teleport and gate spells. I once had a think about the necessary number of dimensions to describe the relationships between the planes. Let's see; taking the outer planes, there is a Great Ring in 2D, and depth in that each plane has levels, so that's 3 extra dimensions. Then we consider the direction in which the Astral and Ethereal are a distance away from the Prime, which is at least another extra dimension. That makes 8 so far. The Ethereal is surrounded in some way by the Positive, Negative, quasi and paraelemental planes and of course the elemental ones; the most obvious arrangement is a 3D one, but of course those dimensions could be the same as the arrangement of the Outer Planes. So the minimum is 8 dimensions; however that allows for no distortion of the existing structure, as in astral conduits and gates, and that needs at least another dimension, possibly two, to bend and warp the multiverse in. Conclusion? A wizard or any other spellcaster, whether he or she knows it or not, is dealing with 9 or 10D space transformations, in the mathematical sense. And the wizards are the theoreticians here; no wonder you need to be intelligent! (No, I haven't counted wrong. The prime plane is four-dimensional, in that they have a time dimension.) Concept for a theoretician wizard's textbook: "Ten-space topological transformations and their practical applications".
taltamir 05-09-07, 02:28 PM	except time doesn't even exist, its not a dimension, its relative kinetic energy. And... you know what, lets just not go there. The wizards are not scientists, far from it. And amusingly enough, a sorcerer, through intuition, guesses the exact gestures, the need to hold bat guano, and everything else needed to replicate a spell exactly. Intuitively guessing the answers to your so called 10 dimensional mathematical equations. Plus, if they had advanced mathematics, they would be able to BUILD better structures, which they don't.
OmegaLord 05-09-07, 03:09 PM	I did meet a girl today that was excessively excited about the Renaissance Fair a few weeks ago. She loved the floppy leather hats, but was bummed that they were so expensive. I do believe, however, that she's about 11 years younger than me... [off topic] yeah that faire was pretty cool cept I spent most of it being a royal gaurd (its not nearly as cool as it sounds trust me :) ). And your surprised that a cute girl that you met at faire is ridiculously young? jeez im surprised when theyre legal :D . Ahh classic ren-faire game of "is she legal?" XD. Good times. now back to your regularly scheduled debate on why wizards suck. [/off topic] I would have to say my favorite slot-based spell system is from Arcana Unearthed (monte cooks d20 setting). You can pull together low level slots to cast a higher level one and vice versa, you can cast a spell at a level higher or a level lower with increased or decreased effect respectively, and spells have 3 levels of complexity for some neat fluff/balance. for example simple spells are basic and do rather basic things like charm think of these as simple math equasions, complex spells are things like magic weapon and the like more complex equations that can only be used by those who have a better grasp on magical theory, and then there are the exotics which are truly esoteric/powerful spells which are very difficult to learn and cast like extrmely complex math problems that have a very narrow field of applicability. All of this= teh awesome :) Psi is still probably my favorite system overall ( I :inlove: power points) but the AU spell system is a close second (heck the whole book is packed with liquid awesome IMHO)
InkBlot 05-09-07, 05:36 PM	I read the AU spell system, and to me it just seemed like an attempt to cram spell-slots into the XPH. Not bad, but it would be so much better if he let go of the sacred cow spell slots.
Regularguy 05-09-07, 05:53 PM	Originally I played wizards, because I WANTED to play a capital W, WIZARD. But then I realized thats not what "wizards" are in DnD... Want a wizard? Well, I used to think it was impossible, but I would try playing a psion who is actually a wizard next time and see if it works out. Just to swing back around to the OP long enough to offer up an irrelevancy of sorts, both the X-Men and Thor met up with Merlin early on in issues of their respective comics -- and he turned out to be a psychic like Jean or the Professor, one who only pretended to be some kind of wizard back in the days of Camelot. Because, well, see, he'd known folks back then were cool with the idea of a learned spellcaster who could expertly brew up magic potions, but he wasn't sure they'd be okay with a guy who could simply will things to happen by sheer mind power, and, so, hey, why take a gamble, right? I mean, it's not like he couldn't supply all the effects needed for an Arthurian setting: a little levitation here, a bit of judicious mind control there, it takes a toll but it was nothing he couldn't handle.
taltamir 05-11-07, 12:36 PM	Just to swing back around to the OP long enough to offer up an irrelevancy of sorts, both the X-Men and Thor met up with Merlin early on in issues of their respective comics -- and he turned out to be a psychic like Jean or the Professor, one who only pretended to be some kind of wizard back in the days of Camelot. Because, well, see, he'd known folks back then were cool with the idea of a learned spellcaster who could expertly brew up magic potions, but he wasn't sure they'd be okay with a guy who could simply will things to happen by sheer mind power, and, so, hey, why take a gamble, right? I mean, it's not like he couldn't supply all the effects needed for an Arthurian setting: a little levitation here, a bit of judicious mind control there, it takes a toll but it was nothing he couldn't handle. It is also amazingly convenient.... Grunt: We caught the enemy wizard sire, we slipped a sleeping potion into his drink and then pounced on him... Lieutenant: Excellent work lads, now take his spell book and ingredient pouch and gag him. Lets see him work his magic NOW! (*foreboding thundercrack*