Kill the Solar... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Kill the Solar... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
crizhII
07-05-07, 08:44 AM I need some help with a combat I'll be running on Sunday.

The BBEG as a level 11 Erudite. He's pretty geared up, much more equipment than is appropriate for his level, mostly Dorje's he used with Dorje Mastery and Temporal Acceleration in the first round of combat to buff himself beyond all reason. He is linked to 9 slave minds in an item created Metaconcert that doesn't limit his mobility much. I'm not really tracking his PP expenditure, for all intents and purposes it's unlimited at this point.

The PC's are in various states of disarray at the start of the combat, all bar one of them has just been rescued from a Microcosm, but they do have allies. They have the level 16 High Priest of the God of Magic, the level 16 Archmage Dean of the College of Magic and a Solar backing them up.

The plan is to waste the Solar to really put the fear up the group and then let them and the remaining two NPC's take him down. However at this stage I think I'm going to have to rely on a Deus ex Machina from the EBBEG to get around the Solar's DR.

I'd rather not do that so any suggestions you guys can come up with would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and just to throw a final spanner in the works, the campaign is non-transparent with the only exception being that natural SR grants PR at -5.
runestar
07-05-07, 09:01 AM Lv11 erudite...?:confused:

Perhaps you mean lv21 or something?

I suppose he will be using temporal acceleration each round to effectively give him 5 rounds worth of actions each round. Beyond that, I am familiar with psionics.
Seldriss
07-05-07, 09:07 AM Kill a Solar ?
Good luck :rolleyes:
The_Shaman
07-05-07, 09:38 AM Even with good equipment and near-unlimited PPs, expecting a 11-level caster, at most a CR 15 threat, to waste a CR 23 one is quite a lot. If you do not have a deus ex machina of some sort, it is not likely to happen: try with an astral deva instead.
The_Shaman
07-05-07, 09:50 AM NP (doublepost)
lint trap
07-05-07, 09:52 AM The folks at the CharOps board could probably make an Erudite 11 nova and kill a Solar, but there wouldn't be much left of him to fight the party.
The_Shaman
07-05-07, 10:00 AM That would probably mean that the solar is played ineptly. It has enough intelligence and wisdom to make VERY good use of its abilities and lvl 20 spellcasting, thank you very much.
crizhII
07-05-07, 10:19 AM The Solar is, briefly, busy freeing people from Microcosm.

The Erudite has a one round window to hit him as hard as he can and after that it's open season.

The list of example memorized spells for a Solar in the MM is a bit sub-optimal but I don't see how he can survive the barrage he is likely to encounter in that one round. Even without the intervention of the EBBEG he'll be blasted so far into unconscious that it will be the middle of next week before he wakes up.

Thing is, without that intervention I don't see how a kill can be achieved. I've pored through the EPH and CPsi and the number of [Evil] powers that cause damage is zero. I don't see any way to make a normal power [Evil].

I suppose I could find some way to trap him and drown him but that would take for ever unless he were unconscious first....
Karidil
07-05-07, 10:41 AM Just teleport him in front of Asmodeus. That should finish him off pretty quickly.
Bacris
07-05-07, 11:48 AM Sonic is your best damage type for us against a solar. And target touch AC rather than regular AC or resists... although you still have to bypass its spell resistance... and at 11th level, that's going to be tough.

Use Schism, Energy Ray [sonic], Split Psionic Ray, and Quicken Power

Split Sonic Energy Ray - 9d6-9 x 2 = 45 avg damage
Quickened Sonic Energy Ray 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage
Schismed Sonic Energy RAy 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage

Question, how do you view crystal shard with regard to damage reduction? Is it not subject to it as normal for powers / spells, or is it subject to it?

Using the default ruling that it's not subject to DR makes it your best bet, as it's not subject to Power Resistance. The above combo with crystal shard increases the damage to 63, 17.5, 17.5, or roughly half its health.

EDIT - Of course, the other option would be to use a DM-customized solar that doesn't have all those resistances... Nothing says every single solar must be exactly as given in the MM.
Mindolin
07-05-07, 12:26 PM Crystal Shard is reduced by damage reduction. If it deals slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, then it's affected by DR.
crizhII
07-05-07, 12:43 PM Crystal Shard is reduced by damage reduction. If it deals slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, then it's affected by DR.

Unfortunately that's how were running things. Such spells or powers are all treated as weapons.

Crystal Shard is still better than Energy Ray in this respect, even though it does not penetrate DR it isn't subject to PR and is likely to do much more damage on average. Unless I give him some sort of boost he only beats PR27 one time in four.

That isn't the main problem though. Neither effect penetrates its Regeneration.

To get a kill I either have to find a way of making a weapon epic or a power [Evil]. I can do the first with a Deus ex Machina but I've no idea how to do the second without breaking into material we don't use (only Core, Completes and KoK) or house-ruling something.
crizhII
07-05-07, 01:44 PM Split Sonic Energy Ray - 9d6-9 x 2 = 45 avg damage
Quickened Sonic Energy Ray 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage
Schismed Sonic Energy RAy 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage

I was thinking:

Round 1

Swift: Temporal Acceleration

Round 1a

Standard: Bolt + Linked Twinned Telekinetic Thrust (Overchannel)
Move: Refocus
Free: Hustle
Move: Refocus

Round 1

Standard: Twinned Telekinetic Thrust
Schismed: Telekinetic Thrust
Move: Refocus

That's 57 missiles, with Offensive Precog + Prescience three quarters of them will hit. Most will only do 5 or 6 points of non-lethal damage unless I can find a way to make them Epic.

As I'm ignoring the stupid ML cap on Dorjes I may just go with Bolt. I'm only using it in the example to get a choice of target for the TA: Thrust.

However, having read it through now, an ML 12 Dorje of Bolt, Dorje Mastery and a few Oils of Corrupt Weapon combined with Temporal Acceleration and I think I'm all set to go
munin
07-05-07, 03:09 PM The great advantage of your metaconcert is that it increases the save DCs of manifestations by +1 per participant, which for you, means +10, which puts the solar's saves in range of the metaconcert's save-or-die powers.

fuse flesh (touch attack, save DC 26+Int, PR)
control body (Fort DC 24+Int, PR)
psionic dismissal (Will DC 13+Int, PR)
psionic dominate (+4pp for outsider, 1 round, Will DC 26+Int, PR)

I think psionic dominate is your best bet. Then order the solar to wish itself dead. Actually, death urge might work too. DU is very specific about what it will and won't make the target do, but access to wish might be equivalent to access to a cliff. If the metaconcert can Overchannel, it could get the 1 hour dominate instead of concentration (but worry about it being dispelled).

But even with the save bonus and the PR=SR-5, the metaconcert still only has a 20% chance to overcome the solar's SR. If you give the metaconcert access to Greater Power Penetration, then it has a 60% chance to overcome SR. If the erudite has access to spells, Assay Spell Resistance should help.

The metaconcert's "mental entity" isn't well defined, but it probably doesn't have access to feats which would boost save or PR DC, or quicken powers (the power doesn't say it has access to the participants' feats, just powers). Maybe a temporal acceleration to manifest animal affinity (Int) to boost save DC? If Int is the mental entity's manifesting ability score ... who knows...

ectoplasmic cocoon is a fun save-or-"die" which is not affected by PR, but the solar has a minor globe of invulnerability up. If you can dispel that, the metaconcert should have a reasonable chance of entombing the solar.

...a few Oils of Corrupt Weapon...
Unless they're also epic, it doesn't matter if they're evil... but otherwise a good plan. Have the metaconcert try the dominate while you're doing that.
crizhII
07-05-07, 04:04 PM ectoplasmic cocoon is a fun save-or-"die" which is not affected by PR, but the solar has a minor globe of invulnerability up. If you can dispel that, the metaconcert should have a reasonable chance of entombing the solar.

Non-transparent game. Would Ecto. Cocoon not be really easy for a Solar to escape from?

Unless they're also epic, it doesn't matter if they're evil... but otherwise a good plan. Have the metaconcert try the dominate while you're doing that.

Bolt manifested at ML 16 is epic (+6). Metaphysical Weapon would do also but would need to be Overchanneled to ML 21.
Fleem
07-05-07, 06:01 PM Maybe the Solar is badly drained by the effort of saving people from the whatever. You could then have him cheesily finished off by a salvo of telekinetic thrusted evil crossbow bolts. Of course, the chances of hitting are pretty low...
Lord_of_Omnipotence
07-06-07, 12:31 AM My question is, how can your BBEG be level 11 when the party has 2 level 16s and a CR 23 helping them out?
munin
07-06-07, 10:23 AM Non-transparent game. Would Ecto. Cocoon not be really easy for a Solar to escape from?...Bolt manifested at ML 16 is epic (+6).

You're right about bolt. How does he get ML 16th?

If the erudite can get off some sort of antimagic field (as opposed to NPF), he's going to be in much better shape. If he's been living in a magic-dominated world, it's probably something he's thought about and planned for, especially since his standard repertoire isn't great against spells (maybe he commissioned a one-use command word item? a wondrous item priced like a 6th-level "potion" would be about 3,300 gp -- seems like a good investment for a smart psionic BBEG who reasonably expects to be attacked by magic-wielding do-gooders). Does the party et al know the erudite is psionic? If not, they might waste some time with dispel magics. Not sure if epic damage reduction is supernatural or extraordinary (can't find rule and DR/epic isn't in the FAQ), but DR/evil goes away in AMF (do you really want the solar within 10 feet though?).

EC can be damaged, but it can't be dispelled (even by dispel psionics) and doesn't have a burst DC (it has the hardness of stone, but EC doesn't define how thick the cocoon is or how well constructed). I'm looking through the solar's spell-like abilities and spells prepared and nothing's jumping out at me. It has no teleportation effects, plane shift has a somatic component, and EC blocks ethereality. The solar's damaging spells and abilities require line of effect to an originating point or have a somatic component. It could wish itself out (doesn't seem like something it would try on the first round it's cocooned) or someone else can free it if they know how (Psicraft check?) or guess. In a non-transparent world, the solar's lesser globe of invulnerability from its protective aura probably doesn't block psionic powers (it says spells). EC him and have a minion drag him away from the others.

Bah, angels' protective aura does block psionic dominate and in a non-transparent world the erudite'd have to dispel magic it (protective aura is a supernatural ability, but if it can be dispelled, as it says it can, then it's because it's duplicating the divine spell).

Can a metaconcert make a touch attack? fuse flesh would stupor their mundi.

Remember, the erudite is probably tons smarter than you, the DM, are (no offense), so it's okay to instantly retcon his not-yet-used resources if you think of something better.
crizhII
07-06-07, 06:16 PM You're right about bolt. How does he get ML 16th?

I don't use the ML cap for creating Dorjes. He has as many Dorjes as he needs up to ML 13 and he has Dorje Mastery to eke another 4 points out of them.

They figured out about Psionics in the last combat. They were fighting the nasty evil cleric but all the effects they were trying to dispel had been created by the Erudite. They got through at least half a dozen dispels before they figured it out. :D

Having read Ecto Cocoon I'm beginning to warm to the idea. It won't kill him but it will certainly immobilize him. He can escape with Wish but he only gets one. If you set up a linked Ecto Cocoon to go off in the following round he'd be stuffed.

It doesn't kill him but you ought to be able to drown him without much trouble. Blast a hole in the ground under him, fill it with created water and manifest an Astral Construct to drag him down and hold him under. I'll have to check the drowning rules...

...perhaps not, back to the old drawing board. :weep:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crizhII 07-05-07, 08:44 AM	I need some help with a combat I'll be running on Sunday. The BBEG as a level 11 Erudite. He's pretty geared up, much more equipment than is appropriate for his level, mostly Dorje's he used with Dorje Mastery and Temporal Acceleration in the first round of combat to buff himself beyond all reason. He is linked to 9 slave minds in an item created Metaconcert that doesn't limit his mobility much. I'm not really tracking his PP expenditure, for all intents and purposes it's unlimited at this point. The PC's are in various states of disarray at the start of the combat, all bar one of them has just been rescued from a Microcosm, but they do have allies. They have the level 16 High Priest of the God of Magic, the level 16 Archmage Dean of the College of Magic and a Solar backing them up. The plan is to waste the Solar to really put the fear up the group and then let them and the remaining two NPC's take him down. However at this stage I think I'm going to have to rely on a Deus ex Machina from the EBBEG to get around the Solar's DR. I'd rather not do that so any suggestions you guys can come up with would be greatly appreciated. Oh, and just to throw a final spanner in the works, the campaign is non-transparent with the only exception being that natural SR grants PR at -5.
runestar 07-05-07, 09:01 AM	Lv11 erudite...?:confused: Perhaps you mean lv21 or something? I suppose he will be using temporal acceleration each round to effectively give him 5 rounds worth of actions each round. Beyond that, I am familiar with psionics.
Seldriss 07-05-07, 09:07 AM	Kill a Solar ? Good luck :rolleyes:
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 09:38 AM	Even with good equipment and near-unlimited PPs, expecting a 11-level caster, at most a CR 15 threat, to waste a CR 23 one is quite a lot. If you do not have a deus ex machina of some sort, it is not likely to happen: try with an astral deva instead.
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 09:50 AM	NP (doublepost)
lint trap 07-05-07, 09:52 AM	The folks at the CharOps board could probably make an Erudite 11 nova and kill a Solar, but there wouldn't be much left of him to fight the party.
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 10:00 AM	That would probably mean that the solar is played ineptly. It has enough intelligence and wisdom to make VERY good use of its abilities and lvl 20 spellcasting, thank you very much.
crizhII 07-05-07, 10:19 AM	The Solar is, briefly, busy freeing people from Microcosm. The Erudite has a one round window to hit him as hard as he can and after that it's open season. The list of example memorized spells for a Solar in the MM is a bit sub-optimal but I don't see how he can survive the barrage he is likely to encounter in that one round. Even without the intervention of the EBBEG he'll be blasted so far into unconscious that it will be the middle of next week before he wakes up. Thing is, without that intervention I don't see how a kill can be achieved. I've pored through the EPH and CPsi and the number of [Evil] powers that cause damage is zero. I don't see any way to make a normal power [Evil]. I suppose I could find some way to trap him and drown him but that would take for ever unless he were unconscious first....
Karidil 07-05-07, 10:41 AM	Just teleport him in front of Asmodeus. That should finish him off pretty quickly.
Bacris 07-05-07, 11:48 AM	Sonic is your best damage type for us against a solar. And target touch AC rather than regular AC or resists... although you still have to bypass its spell resistance... and at 11th level, that's going to be tough. Use Schism, Energy Ray [sonic], Split Psionic Ray, and Quicken Power Split Sonic Energy Ray - 9d6-9 x 2 = 45 avg damage Quickened Sonic Energy Ray 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage Schismed Sonic Energy RAy 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage Question, how do you view crystal shard with regard to damage reduction? Is it not subject to it as normal for powers / spells, or is it subject to it? Using the default ruling that it's not subject to DR makes it your best bet, as it's not subject to Power Resistance. The above combo with crystal shard increases the damage to 63, 17.5, 17.5, or roughly half its health. EDIT - Of course, the other option would be to use a DM-customized solar that doesn't have all those resistances... Nothing says every single solar must be exactly as given in the MM.
Mindolin 07-05-07, 12:26 PM	Crystal Shard is reduced by damage reduction. If it deals slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, then it's affected by DR.
crizhII 07-05-07, 12:43 PM	Crystal Shard is reduced by damage reduction. If it deals slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage, then it's affected by DR. Unfortunately that's how were running things. Such spells or powers are all treated as weapons. Crystal Shard is still better than Energy Ray in this respect, even though it does not penetrate DR it isn't subject to PR and is likely to do much more damage on average. Unless I give him some sort of boost he only beats PR27 one time in four. That isn't the main problem though. Neither effect penetrates its Regeneration. To get a kill I either have to find a way of making a weapon epic or a power [Evil]. I can do the first with a Deus ex Machina but I've no idea how to do the second without breaking into material we don't use (only Core, Completes and KoK) or house-ruling something.
crizhII 07-05-07, 01:44 PM	Split Sonic Energy Ray - 9d6-9 x 2 = 45 avg damage Quickened Sonic Energy Ray 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage Schismed Sonic Energy RAy 5d6-5 = 12.5 avg damage I was thinking: Round 1 Swift: Temporal Acceleration Round 1a Standard: Bolt + Linked Twinned Telekinetic Thrust (Overchannel) Move: Refocus Free: Hustle Move: Refocus Round 1 Standard: Twinned Telekinetic Thrust Schismed: Telekinetic Thrust Move: Refocus That's 57 missiles, with Offensive Precog + Prescience three quarters of them will hit. Most will only do 5 or 6 points of non-lethal damage unless I can find a way to make them Epic. As I'm ignoring the stupid ML cap on Dorjes I may just go with Bolt. I'm only using it in the example to get a choice of target for the TA: Thrust. However, having read it through now, an ML 12 Dorje of Bolt, Dorje Mastery and a few Oils of Corrupt Weapon combined with Temporal Acceleration and I think I'm all set to go
munin 07-05-07, 03:09 PM	The great advantage of your metaconcert is that it increases the save DCs of manifestations by +1 per participant, which for you, means +10, which puts the solar's saves in range of the metaconcert's save-or-die powers. fuse flesh (touch attack, save DC 26+Int, PR) control body (Fort DC 24+Int, PR) psionic dismissal (Will DC 13+Int, PR) psionic dominate (+4pp for outsider, 1 round, Will DC 26+Int, PR) I think psionic dominate is your best bet. Then order the solar to wish itself dead. Actually, death urge might work too. DU is very specific about what it will and won't make the target do, but access to wish might be equivalent to access to a cliff. If the metaconcert can Overchannel, it could get the 1 hour dominate instead of concentration (but worry about it being dispelled). But even with the save bonus and the PR=SR-5, the metaconcert still only has a 20% chance to overcome the solar's SR. If you give the metaconcert access to Greater Power Penetration, then it has a 60% chance to overcome SR. If the erudite has access to spells, Assay Spell Resistance should help. The metaconcert's "mental entity" isn't well defined, but it probably doesn't have access to feats which would boost save or PR DC, or quicken powers (the power doesn't say it has access to the participants' feats, just powers). Maybe a temporal acceleration to manifest animal affinity (Int) to boost save DC? If Int is the mental entity's manifesting ability score ... who knows... ectoplasmic cocoon is a fun save-or-"die" which is not affected by PR, but the solar has a minor globe of invulnerability up. If you can dispel that, the metaconcert should have a reasonable chance of entombing the solar. ...a few Oils of Corrupt Weapon... Unless they're also epic, it doesn't matter if they're evil... but otherwise a good plan. Have the metaconcert try the dominate while you're doing that.
crizhII 07-05-07, 04:04 PM	ectoplasmic cocoon is a fun save-or-"die" which is not affected by PR, but the solar has a minor globe of invulnerability up. If you can dispel that, the metaconcert should have a reasonable chance of entombing the solar. Non-transparent game. Would Ecto. Cocoon not be really easy for a Solar to escape from? Unless they're also epic, it doesn't matter if they're evil... but otherwise a good plan. Have the metaconcert try the dominate while you're doing that. Bolt manifested at ML 16 is epic (+6). Metaphysical Weapon would do also but would need to be Overchanneled to ML 21.
Fleem 07-05-07, 06:01 PM	Maybe the Solar is badly drained by the effort of saving people from the whatever. You could then have him cheesily finished off by a salvo of telekinetic thrusted evil crossbow bolts. Of course, the chances of hitting are pretty low...
Lord_of_Omnipotence 07-06-07, 12:31 AM	My question is, how can your BBEG be level 11 when the party has 2 level 16s and a CR 23 helping them out?
munin 07-06-07, 10:23 AM	Non-transparent game. Would Ecto. Cocoon not be really easy for a Solar to escape from?...Bolt manifested at ML 16 is epic (+6). You're right about bolt. How does he get ML 16th? If the erudite can get off some sort of antimagic field (as opposed to NPF), he's going to be in much better shape. If he's been living in a magic-dominated world, it's probably something he's thought about and planned for, especially since his standard repertoire isn't great against spells (maybe he commissioned a one-use command word item? a wondrous item priced like a 6th-level "potion" would be about 3,300 gp -- seems like a good investment for a smart psionic BBEG who reasonably expects to be attacked by magic-wielding do-gooders). Does the party et al know the erudite is psionic? If not, they might waste some time with dispel magics. Not sure if epic damage reduction is supernatural or extraordinary (can't find rule and DR/epic isn't in the FAQ), but DR/evil goes away in AMF (do you really want the solar within 10 feet though?). EC can be damaged, but it can't be dispelled (even by dispel psionics) and doesn't have a burst DC (it has the hardness of stone, but EC doesn't define how thick the cocoon is or how well constructed). I'm looking through the solar's spell-like abilities and spells prepared and nothing's jumping out at me. It has no teleportation effects, plane shift has a somatic component, and EC blocks ethereality. The solar's damaging spells and abilities require line of effect to an originating point or have a somatic component. It could wish itself out (doesn't seem like something it would try on the first round it's cocooned) or someone else can free it if they know how (Psicraft check?) or guess. In a non-transparent world, the solar's lesser globe of invulnerability from its protective aura probably doesn't block psionic powers (it says spells). EC him and have a minion drag him away from the others. Bah, angels' protective aura does block psionic dominate and in a non-transparent world the erudite'd have to dispel magic it (protective aura is a supernatural ability, but if it can be dispelled, as it says it can, then it's because it's duplicating the divine spell). Can a metaconcert make a touch attack? fuse flesh would stupor their mundi. Remember, the erudite is probably tons smarter than you, the DM, are (no offense), so it's okay to instantly retcon his not-yet-used resources if you think of something better.
crizhII 07-06-07, 06:16 PM	You're right about bolt. How does he get ML 16th? I don't use the ML cap for creating Dorjes. He has as many Dorjes as he needs up to ML 13 and he has Dorje Mastery to eke another 4 points out of them. They figured out about Psionics in the last combat. They were fighting the nasty evil cleric but all the effects they were trying to dispel had been created by the Erudite. They got through at least half a dozen dispels before they figured it out. :D Having read Ecto Cocoon I'm beginning to warm to the idea. It won't kill him but it will certainly immobilize him. He can escape with Wish but he only gets one. If you set up a linked Ecto Cocoon to go off in the following round he'd be stuffed. It doesn't kill him but you ought to be able to drown him without much trouble. Blast a hole in the ground under him, fill it with created water and manifest an Astral Construct to drag him down and hold him under. I'll have to check the drowning rules... ...perhaps not, back to the old drawing board. :weep: