Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Your Immortal DM 11-24-06, 01:48 AM	The purpose comparison is to once again, attempt to show how psionics are overpowered with a realistic model. This will allow all of us to debate the findings that can be seen/tested instead of theorized (and argued). I created two viable characters, one kineticist, one evoker (since others have suggested that's a more 'fair' comparison of the two classes). Both characters have similar capabilities, save-or-suffer effects, energy damage, typeless damage, buffs, summoning, and utility spells/powers. I ernestly tried to make sure that BOTH characters could do what the other could do and vice versa. I even included the use of metamagic rods to help the comparison. Lets see who comes out on top? Note: since I cannot comment on the game-balance of various supplements, this is restricted to CORE only. GOUDA Gouda: Male elan psion (kineticist) 20; ECL 20; Medium size aberration; HD 20d4+40; hp 92; Init +3; Spd 30 ft; AC 31 (touch 16, flat-footed 28); Atk +15 melee (1d6, quarterstaff) or +16 ranged touch (by power); SQ: Elan traits, psicrystal; SR 20; AL N; SV Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +16; Str 12, Dex 12[16], Con 12[14], Int 28[34], Wis 12, Cha 6. Feats: Alertness, Delay Power, Empower Power, Expanded Knowledge (astral construct), Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis), Expanded Knowledge (mass ectoplasmic cocoon), Expanded Knowledge (schism), Expanded Knowledge (psionic teleport), Overchannel, Psicrystal Containment, Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Meditation, Talented. Special Qualities: Elan Traits: aberration type, naturally psionic, resistance (Su), resilience (Su), repletion (Su); Psicrystal (hero): construct type, Alertness, improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, telepathic speech, flight, power resistance, sight link, channel power. Psion (Kineticist) Powers per Day (465 power points; base DC = 22 + power level; Manifester level 20th.): Psion (Kineticist) Powers Known: 1st—astral construct*, defensive precognition, crystal shard, energy ray, inertial armor, force screen, vigor; 2nd—ego whip, energy missile, energy stun; 3rd—body adjustment, dispel psionics, solicit psicrystal, touchsight; 4th—control body, energy adaptation, energy ball, intellect fortress, metamorphosis*, psychic reformation, schism*; 5th—energy current, fiery discorporation, psionic teleport*, power resistance, shatter mind blank; 6th—psionic disintegrate, psionic contingency, temporal acceleration; 7th—decerebrate, mass ectoplasmic cocoon*, personal mind blank, reddopsi; 8th—bend reality, iron body, recall death; 9th—microcosm, tornado blast, timeless body. Protective buffs: psionic contingency (temporal acceleration; 23 power points; if physically, psionically, or magically attacked); inertial armor (23 power points), personal mind blank (13 power points). Possessions: tome of clear thought +5 (already read), psicrown of fiery ruin, +1 heavy fortification invulnerability mithril chain shirt, crystal mask of insightful detection (with gem of seeing mounted in eye socket with sovereign glue), skin of the hero, scarlet and blue ioun stone (upgraded to +6 Int), cloak of etherealness, scarab of protection, gloves of dexterity +4, ring of blinking, ring of evasion, winged boots, pink ioun stone (+2 Con), necklace of adaptation (not worn), gloves of object reading (not worn), handy haversack, sovereign glue, (5) tattoos of vigor (ML 20), 20-30k in power stones, mwk quarterstaff. Good defensive buffs to manifest: force screen (+4 to +9 shield bonus), defensive precognition (+2 to +9 insight bonus to AC/saves), vigor (5 to 115 temp hit points), intellect fortress (immediate action, half damage from AoE), energy adaptation (immediate action, all energy resistances 30), ring of blinking (various effects; 50% miss chance), iron body (DR 15/adamantine; various effects) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ WISHES (that he could be Gouda) Wishes: Male human evoker 20; ECL 20; Medium humanoid (human); HD 20d4+40; hp 92; Init +2; Spd 30 ft; AC 19 (touch 15, flat-footed 17); Atk +14 melee (1d6, rod) or +15 ranged touch (by spell); SQ: Familiar, human traits; SR 20; AL N; SV Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +16; Str 12, Dex 12[14], Con 12[14], Int 28[34], Wis 12, Cha 8. Feats: Alertness, Craft Rod, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Greater Spell Focus (evocation), Greater Spell Penetration, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Silent Spell, Spell Focus (evocation), Spell Penetration, Still Spell. Special Qualities: Evoker abilities: Spellcraft bonus (evocation), bonus spells, prohibited schools (necromancy, illusion); Familiar (rat): magical beast, Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with animals of its kind, spell resistance, scry on familiar; Human traits: bonus feat, bonus skill points. Evoker Spells per Day (5/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6; base DC = 22 + spell level, 24 + spell level for evocation; Caster level 20th.) Typical Spells Prepared: 0-level—(2) dancing lights, detect magic, mage hand, message; 1st—charm person, (2) magic missile, mage armor, (2) shield, feather fall, unseen servant; 2nd—glitterdust, (2) resist energy, false life, rope trick, (2) scorching ray, web; 3rd—blink, dispel magic, (2) fly, (2) fireball, nondetection, protection from energy; 4th—confusion, dimension door, (2) empowered scorching ray, Evard’s black tentacles, fire shield, polymorph, stoneskin; 5th—cone of cold, cloudkill, hold monster, (2) empowered fireball, baleful polymorph, teleport; 6th—acid fog, chain lightning, disintegrate, greater dispel magic, greater heroism, true seeing, flesh to stone; 7th—(2) delayed blast fireball, empowered cone of cold, limited wish, ethereal jaunt, forcecage, spell turning; 8th—(2) empowered chain lightning, mind blank, protection from spells, moment of prescience, Otto’s irresistible dance, summon monster VIII; 9th—gate, (2) meteor swarm, power word kill, shapechange, time stop. Spellbook: 0-level—acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic; 1st—alarm, burning hands, charm person, comprehend languages, color spray, detect secret doors, identify, magic missile, mage armor, shield, feather fall, protection from evil, true strike, unseen servant; 2nd—alter self, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, false life, fox’s cunning, glitterdust, knock, levitate, protection from arrows, resist energy, rope trick, see invisibility, summon swarm, summon monster II, scorching ray, web; 3rd—arcane sight, blink, deep slumber, dispel magic, fly, fireball, haste, lightning bolt, magic circle against evil, nondetection, phantom steed, protection from energy, Sepia snake sigil, secret page, summon monster III, slow, stinking cloud; 4th—confusion, dimensional anchor, dimension door, Evard’s black tentacles, fire shield, polymorph, Otiluke’s resilient sphere, remove curse, Rary’s mnemonic enhancer, scrying, stoneskin, summon monster IV; 5th—baleful polymorph, break enchantment contact other plane, cone of cold, cloudkill, feeblemind, hold monster, permanency, sending, summon monster V, teleport, telekinesis; 6th—acid fog, chain lightning, contingency, disintegrate, greater dispel magic, greater heroism, planar binding, true seeing, flesh to stone, summon monster VI; 7th—delayed blast fireball, limited wish, plane shift, ethereal jaunt, forcecage, spell turning, summon monster VII, vision; 8th—mind blank, protection from spells, moment of prescience, Otto’s irresistible dance, polymorph any objects, summon monster VIII; 9th—gate, meteor swarm, power word kill, prismatic sphere, shapechange, time stop. Protective buffs: contingency (teleport; if physically, psionically, or magically attacked); mage armor, mind blank, moment of prescience. Possessions: greater metamagic rod of quicken, greater metamagic rod of empower, tome of clear thought +5 (already read), staff of evocation, +1 heavy fortification mithril chain shirt, skin of the hero, ring of freedom of movement, scarab of protection, headband of intellect +6, ring of evasion, Boccob’s blessed book, metamagic rod of silent, metamagic rod of still, (2) gloves of storing, pink ioun stone (+2 Con), deep red ioun stone (+2 Dex), handy haversack, 10k in scrolls. Note: the evoker above has 55k in extra purchased scrolls (that he scribed to gain spells), and scribing costs of 33k (for all spell levels). For the sake of argument, I am ignoring all these costs (we’ll say he "found" all the extra spells and had the Boccob’s blessed book throughout his entire career, starting at level 1). Good defensive buffs to cast: shield (+4 AC), blink (various effects; 50% miss chance), protection from spells (+8 resistance bonus to saves vs. spells; increase saves by 5), fire shield (fire/cold protection plus damage attacker), stoneskin (DR 10/adamantine), protection from energy (absorb first 180 damage from one energy type) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Lets see how the kineticist might fare in a 3 round timespan. Pre-buff: schism (7 power points), vigor (5 power points) Round 1: overchanneled empowered tornado blast (23 power points) [expend psicrystal focus], move action psi-focus, schism mind: empowered psionic disintegrate (14 power points), swift action temporal velocity (19 power points) Temporal acceleration round 1: full round action psi-focus psicrystal Temporal acceleration round 2: move action psi-focus, delayed tornado blast (19 power points) Temporal accelerationround 3: move action psi-focus, empowered energy current (20 power points), swift action solicit psicrystal (5 power points) Round 2: move action psi-focus, empowered tornado blast (19 power points), schism mind: empowered psionic disintegrate (14 power points), swift action temporal velocity (19 power points) Temporal acceleration round 1: full round action psi-focus psicrystal Temporal acceleration round 2: move action psi-focus, delayed tornado blast (19 power points) Temporal accelerationround 3: move action psi-focus, delayed tornado blast (19 power points) Round 3: move action psi-focus, empowered tornado blast (20 power points), schism mind: empowered psionic disintegrate (14 power points) 1244 both AoE and single target damage (3 round total), resources spent: 237 power points Pre-buff: schism (7 power points), vigor (10 power points) Round 1 (start): swift action temporal velocity (19 power points) Temporal acceleration Round 1: overchannel empowered energy current (23 power points) [expend psicrystal focus], move action psi-focus, swift action solicit psicrystal (5 power points) Temporal acceleration Round 2: full-round action psi-focus psicrystal Temporal acceleration Round 3: move-action psi-focus, overchannel empowered energy current (23 power points) Round 1 (end): schism mind: empowered energy current (14 power points) Round 2: concentration (multiple energy current manifestations) Round 3: concentration (multiple energy current manifestations) 1094 single target damage (3 round total), resources spent: 101 power points Pre-buff: schism (7 power points), vigor (15 power points) Round 1: empowered energy current (20 power points), move action psi-focus, solicit psi-crystal (5 power points), schism mind: overchannel tornado blast (17 power points) Round 2: concentration [psicrystal], tornado blast (17 power points), move-action psi-focus, schism mind: overchannel tornado blast (17 power points) Round 3: concentration [psicrystal], tornado blast (17 power points), move action psi-focus, schism mind: overchannel tornado blast (17 power points) 802 both AoE and single target damage (3 round total), resources spent: 132 power points Let's see how our evoker fare's in comparison, going all-out... Pre-buff: fly, protection from spells Round 1: rod of empower: meteor swarm, move-action (switch rod), greater rod of quicken: time stop Time stop Round 1: move-action (switch rod), rod of empower: delayed blast fireball Time stop Round 2: rod of empower: delayed blast fireball, move-action (switch to staff) Time stop Round 3: staff of evocation: delayed blast fireball, move-action (switch to rod) Round 2: meteor swarm, rod of quicken: empowered chain lightning Round 3: rod of quicken: empowered chain lightning, empowered cone of cold 849 both AoE and single target damage (3 round total), equivalent resources spent: ~143 power points (and completely depleted all metamagic rod power) ----------------------------------------------------- Now, lets begin the debate. Do we wish to compare save-or-suffer effects? Summoning? How about typeless non-energy damage? How shall we combare these two "blasters"? I believe you'll find, in almost every case the kineticist blows the evoker out of the water. Why bother even playing an evoker with such a more attractive option??? -dare I say it? [overpowered] Your Immortal DM
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 02:02 AM	Not this again... Go away, YIDM (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83067.jpg).
TheDarkLord 11-24-06, 02:04 AM	So you are pitting a Psion with arguably the weakest Wizard school out there? First, the Kineticist is definitely a good blaster, but at ECL 20, blasting is the last thing you need to be doing if you want to live. Second, try pitting the Kineticist against an Abjurerer, a Conjurer, or a Transmuter. Third, With the tactics you used for the wizard I'll take a Rogue 20 and stomp a mudhole in him. Fourth, you really need to stop this BS about Psionics being overpowered, if your really that bad of a DM and cant handle psionics don't use them, simple as that. I run psionics in my game, I have been since the XPH came out. They might approach the power of the wizards but are far from capturing it's power. So please, give it a rest, no one here but you seems to think they are overpowered. Edit: God Forbid it, but if a Psion and Wizard both Knew they were going to go toe to toe, as much as I Love Psionics, I don't care what Kind of Psion you build, the Wizard is going to wax the floor with the Psion in the Suprise round.
King Bulba 11-24-06, 02:20 AM	This is not a fair compairson. Duels are short term and characters have to think of the whole day. No real psion novas since their might still have to battle later. Plus wizards can nova too with quicken. They also can get rods of quickening so they dont have to spend valueble spell resources like a psion. That ability to nova exists in both classes but wizards can do it better though it requires more work to achieve it. You are ignoreing things like versatility in the wizard since he can have an infinate amount of spells known while the psion knows only a few powers that have slightly more versatility. Yes the Kineticist has better short term nuking damage but they pay more for it AND in the long run direct damage SUCKS! Who cares if they do because if you are blasting later in the game then you are doing something wrong. The save or die powers that the wizards have blow psions out of the water in later levels. Note the lack of save or dies when compaired to the wizard. As Lycanthromancer said, "Go away, YIDM." I would add troll to it but he is nicer than I am.
johnkretzer 11-24-06, 02:21 AM	Why doesn't the evoker have wail of the banshee? Why doesn't he have more time stops memorized? He could have easily casted three of them. Yup if you play the evoker as a moron he will be out damaged.
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 02:33 AM	As Lycanthromancer said, "Go away, YIDM." I would add troll to it but he is nicer than I am. Fixed (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10723642&postcount=2). Also, I could make an evoker that would destroy either of those, but I choose not to. Wasting my breath doing anything but laughing at YIDM's threads is...well...a waste of breath. Laugh with me! Laugh! Laugh I say! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=sEcxwMxfB3I)
MasonZII 11-24-06, 03:08 AM	As a technical point, you have to be 15th level to Overchannel for +3ML. The Schismed mind is 14th level, so at most it can get +2ML, and thus it's incapable of casting all those Tornado Blasts.
DemonOSU 11-24-06, 03:19 AM	Psions and Wizards are similar, yet different. A Psion can choose to burn his pp on his best spells, make his best spells the most powerful, ect. But the fact is, he has to pay for this, otherwise his powers are paltry. A wizard's abilities grow with him. He knows that when he throws those 3rd level fireballs he is going to do 1d6 per level to every enemy in range unless they make their save. A Psion who throws an Energy Ball knows they will take 1d6/pp he spends, UP TO, his manifestor level (so no more powerful than a wizard in that respect). Unfortunatly for the wizard, a 5th level Psion can throw more Energy Balls than a 5th level wizard can throw Fireballs. But doing so leaves him unable to use lesser spells or to use them to their full potential. A level 20 wizard as a lot of impressive spells at his disposal, and he can use his lower level slots for utility things he might need, and change what he has based on the situation. A psion can't pick utility abilities, he gets 4 powers per level for the most part and has to make them count. Last game I played I could have REALLY used dismiss ectoplasm. Unfortunatly, even if I knew I was going to be going up against a huge astral construct I couldn't have really prepared for it in the way a wizard could. Oh sure, I could go buy powerstones, just as a wizard can buy scrolls. But it isn't as simple for me as picking a new spell. My little telepath self was mostly useless against this mindless being. So you see? It's DIFFERENT.
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 03:33 AM	Don't bother, guys. YIDM gets his jollies from ticking people off. He presents false and misleading information as fact, does not know the rules (both of which are easily proven by the first post in this very thread), frequently makes glaring debating 'errors,' completely disregards the Oberoni Fallacy, makes the same fallacious arguments over and over, ignores anyone that completely disproves his points (and rehashes the same arguments that were just disproven), and his actions fit the definition of 'trolling' to a tee. Ignore him. He won't go away, but he'll likely get frustrated, and might, eventually, cease posting his erroneous bull all over our board. Maybe he'll go elsewhere?
TheDarkLord 11-24-06, 03:43 AM	Don't bother, guys. YIDM gets his jollies from ticking people off. He presents false and misleading information as fact, does not know the rules (both of which are easily proven by the first post in this very thread), frequently makes glaring debating errors, completely disregards the Oberoni Fallacy, makes the same fallacious arguments over and over, ignores anyone that completely disproves his points (and rehashes the same arguments that were just disproven), and is, by definition, a troll. Ignore him. He won't go away, but he'll likely get frustrated, and might, eventually, cease posting his erroneous bull all over our board. Maybe he'll go elsewhere? Yeah, but sometimes you just feel like it would be nice to find this guy and slowly close your fingers around his th..... I think people should just let this thread die...
MasonZII 11-24-06, 03:45 AM	Oh, and DH blasted this myth out of the water over a year ago. Here's his core-only arcane nova (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9319306&postcount=106), which spends half its spells for 1.5k damage in one round. That thread already covers the whole possible debate here, so it's really quite pointless to repeat it all.
AntiDjinn 11-24-06, 06:04 AM	How is your Schism mind using metapsionic feats without taking actions to refocus itself? Temporal Velocity may allow additional rounds for the primary mind to focus, but the Schism mind specifically does not benefit from this effect. An absolutely nothing in Schism says one mind may expend the focus achieved by the other, in fact, it says explicitly that they function with Complete Autonomy and are treated like two characters. How is the Schism mind overchanneling for +3 ML when you need to be ML 15 to do that and it is only 14? It can only pull off +2 ML. How is your primary mind using those extra rounds bought by Temporal Velocity to concentrate on an Empowered Energy Current manifest by the Schism mind without first using Co-Opt Concentration? Please show me the line in Schism that states explicity that you may freely transfer concentration back and forth (they are like two characters, function autonomously, and even have different manifester levels). If the ML 14 Schism mind manifests Energy Current then it needs to maintain it, or Solicit Psicrystal it, or the primary (or another character) needs to Co-opt it, aside from that you are doing things with concentration that the text of Schism does not allow.
crizhII 11-24-06, 08:12 AM	Are you allowed to make instantaneous AoE attacks with Temporal Velocity? The text seems to indicate not. Only effects that have a duration longer than your Temporal Acceleration are allowed as far as I can see. So Tornado Blast ain't an option...
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 08:27 AM	Isn't the power called Temporal ACCELERATION? Unless there's something I'm missing here, that's one more thing to laugh at. Hah.
lears_fool 11-24-06, 08:58 AM	Ahh, so we've established something important here! A badly run less than intelligent evoker can lose to a kineticist who's cheating. Brilliant. For my next trick, I shall prove that a vorpal kitten can defeat a commoner on the privy. :eek:
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 09:25 AM	Ahh, so we've established something important here! A badly run less than intelligent evoker can lose to a kineticist who's cheating. Brilliant. Absurd, isn't it? And yet, not at all unexpected. PS: I wonder if YIDM realizes that all of the kineticist's actions could be completely negated by one or two spells that the evoker could cast? Like, say, Prismatic Sphere? Or perhaps one of the myriad ways that wizards can gain incorporeality? Wall of Iron? Contingencied Dimension Door? I know that if *I* wanted to take out a psion, I could do it with little to-do. Or, perhaps he doesn't, considering that magic can be houseruled because it's 'balanced' but psionics cannot.
crizhII 11-24-06, 09:33 AM	Are you allowed to make instantaneous AoE attacks with Temporal Velocity? The text seems to indicate not. Only effects that have a duration longer than your Temporal Acceleration are allowed as far as I can see. So Tornado Blast ain't an option... There I go again, idiot.... "Delayed" Tornado Blast. Fair enough.
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 09:34 AM	My statement still stands.
DisposableHero_ 11-24-06, 09:49 AM	The purpose comparison is to once again, attempt to show how psionics are overpowered with a realistic model.I have but one comment to sum up the entire psionics are overpowered debate. You will never get two people on opposite sides of the debate to agree on what a realistic model is, and you should not. D&D is not a compedative hobby it is a social and cooperative one, what flies in one group will not in another. As psionics supporters we find no issue with the system in our games, if you do in yours more power to you, but we don't care what you think and have made up our own minds about what is good for our games. You will find a decidedly cold reception here because fans of anything will reject out of principal anything that attempts to describe their preference as unacceptable or wrong, and psionics is no different. Furthermore the prevalence of attitudes like yours that psionics are in some fashion unsuitable for use have made it difficult for those of us who enjoy the system to find gaming groups where they can use the system unmolested by cries of how overpowered it is. So, with respect, we don't care.
Tralan 11-24-06, 10:22 AM	What does YIDM mean, anyway? Cool pic, BTW. What book is it from? Psionics are so overpowered that I got my butt waxed the other night. We're going through Age of Worms and I got hosed, big time. Luckily... nope, no luck. I had to be ressurected. Seriously, though. I think it all depends on the player. There are some powerful Psionic combos as well as powerful Arcane combos. I usually try to pick spells and powers that are good for my psion and make sense to him. Why be a telepath and choose a horde of psion/wilder powers that aren't from the telepathy discipline? Sure, I choose some, but not a lot.
RadicalTaoist 11-24-06, 11:06 AM	470 pp spent. In a 3 round period. Ironically enough, that's 5 more pp than Gouda actually has. Now, let's take a look at Shrink Item and some of the Creation spells, and watch the wizard do more via crushing than via fireballs, with mid-to-low-level spells. gglolkthnxbye
DisposableHero_ 11-24-06, 11:37 AM	470 pp spent. In a 3 round period. Ironically enough, that's 5 more pp than Gouda actually has.Minor correction, YIDM proposed three 3 round schemes that totaled 470 power points, the most expensive of which was 237 power points.
johnkretzer 11-24-06, 11:43 AM	Why doesn't the evoker have wail of the banshee? Why doesn't he have more time stops memorized? He could have easily casted three of them. Yup if you play the evoker as a moron he will be out damaged. Oh wait a minute I see why he doesn't have Wail of the Banshee it is from his prohibited school of necromancy. So the evoker build is illeagle since he can't cast False Life. Also why would a evoker pick a necromancy has his restricted school?
johnkretzer 11-24-06, 11:47 AM	Also how many people is energy current hitting? I mean you called it a AOE effect, but is it. Can you go more into what the powers are being arguemented to do?
Nibbler 11-24-06, 12:02 PM	YIDM, why do you keep doing this? Like a moth to the flame, I followed your last thread that got locked down. Do you think all psionics users are going to throw up their hands and say, "Wow, YIDM, you're right. Psionics is terrible. Let's abandon it," and then nobody will buy the books, WOTC will pull it off the presses, and psionics will never be heard of again? Some people like psionics. It has different uses that arcane magic. Some things are really good. Some things are not. I happen to like psionics. So there you go. You're not going to eliminate all the psionics users. I agree with Lycanthromancer's sentiment. Go away. Let us discuss psionics in peace.
Tralan 11-24-06, 12:11 PM	All these posts and someone has yet to tell me what YIDM means...
lears_fool 11-24-06, 12:20 PM	All these posts and someone has yet to tell me what YIDM means... YIDM's the guy at the top of the post, who pointed out that a kineticist can beat a dumb evoker by cheating ;) Honestly, the whole thing's silly. Using the imaginary duel scenario just imagine all the complaints the straight fighters would have vs. either of YIDM's examples. And considering how much time most campaigns spend in the 6-14 range it's a bit odd obsessing over how characters balance right before they go epic.
Jaid 11-24-06, 12:28 PM	All these posts and someone has yet to tell me what YIDM means...OP's name. now stop feeding the troll, please.
RadicalTaoist 11-24-06, 12:43 PM	Minor correction, YIDM proposed three 3 round schemes that totaled 470 power points, the most expensive of which was 237 power points. I stand corrected. Still, says something about daily endurance. He can only do the cheapest of the legal routines there three times a day and have pp left over for utility. What would be interesting would be to optimize a wizard's spells prepared in order to come up with a maximum number of "near guaranteed kill combos" (in the line of Positive Energy Plane Gate + Quickened Grease + Contingent Summon for the bullrush, for example) he could pull off in a day, and compare that to how many a psion could afford with his pps.
Lokiyn 11-24-06, 12:58 PM	Ooh, can we use a crazed psion nomad with a brain mole fetish for comparison next? Or how about wizard vs warmage.
Red12 11-24-06, 01:30 PM	It all comes back to the same old argument: just because psionics is better in this one area than magic, its overpower'd? Can nothing be better at anything than magic? Even if psionics is better at direct damage: la de fricken da. Congradulations, psionics! Your best tool, the thing you do best, is considered to be the weakest of all magic! I'm sure this classifies you as broken. Enough.
Your Immortal DM 11-24-06, 02:33 PM	So you are pitting a Psion with arguably the weakest Wizard school out there? So now...evocation is a weak, near useless school? Nice way to TRY and justify your position, by devaluing magic. Why don't you try and post your own stuff to prove me wrong (or prove how evocation is so 'weak') rather than just berate me? Third, With the tactics you used for the wizard I'll take a Rogue 20 and stomp a mudhole in him. I'd love to see that considering my evoker would teleport away (see contingency), or my kineticist would go temproal acceleration (see psionic contingency)and wax the rogue. I run psionics in my game, I have been since the XPH came out. They might approach the power of the wizards but are far from capturing it's power. So please, give it a rest, no one here but you seems to think they are overpowered. Prove it. This is not a fair compairson. How so? I'm not just comparing them just toe to toe. I'm comparing them in a party situation as well. The kineticist can do just about everything the evoker can do, and do much of it better. (far far better) Yes the Kineticist has better short term nuking damage but they pay more for it AND in the long run direct damage SUCKS! Says who? If that's the case, lets compare save-or-suffer effects. Gouda can do both. He can throw out decerebrate and recall death, etc. etc. Gouda's got both; so -- care to explain? Why doesn't the evoker have wail of the banshee? Necromancy is an opposition school perhaps (fixed the false life typo) Why doesn't he have more time stops memorized? Cause I was attempting to build a realistic model, and needed some versatility??? I guess I could ditch shapechange, but that's a pretty good spell. Make more sense now? Also, I could make an evoker that would destroy either of those, but I choose not to. Go ahead wise-guy. Build a "realistic" diverse evoker that is more than a one-trick pony and we'll see how good he stands up to our kineticist model. Go ahead...I DARE you! As a technical point, you have to be 15th level to Overchannel for +3ML. The Schismed mind is 14th level, so at most it can get +2ML, and thus it's incapable of casting all those Tornado Blasts. Incorrect, Overchannel is based on CHARACTER level, not manifester level. Or is there a FAQ that specifies otherwise (if so I apologise). I'll substitute empowered psionic disintegrate or empowered energy balls in it's place. Don't bother, guys. YIDM gets his jollies from ticking people off. Incorrect. I am attempting to start an intellegent debate of which you're more than welcome to participate. Yeah, but sometimes you just feel like it would be nice to find this guy and slowly close your fingers around his th..... Are you threatening me? Maybe I should report this as CoC violation? How is the Schism mind overchanneling for +3 ML when you need to be ML 15 to do that and it is only 14? It can only pull off +2 ML. Re-read Overchannel, it says "level" not manfester level. So a 15th level character can overchannel +3. Perhaps I am wrong, but feel free to debate. If you don't like that combination, we can always substitute empowered psionic disintegrate if you prefer??? Ahh, so we've established something important here! A badly run less than intelligent evoker can lose to a kineticist who's cheating. Really? Prove it, how am I "cheating". Or are you just going to sit there and make nameless acusations? Absurd, isn't it? And yet, not at all unexpected.' And I say agian, I'm not "cheating" at all...no one has come forward to deabte this...they just don't wish to admit I am right. PS: I wonder if YIDM realizes that all of the kineticist's actions could be completely negated by one or two spells that the evoker could cast? Like, say, Prismatic Sphere? Who says they are fighting? I was looking at the potential of each class. Now if they did fight, the kineticist would hose the evoker. Heck, look at the contingency; the kineticist is going to waste the evoker. Heck, a bit of timeless body can take care of the fight just fine if he needed to (and walk right through the prismatic sphere). Or perhaps one of the myriad ways that wizards can gain incorporeality? Hows that? I don't see anything in my SRD, other than perhaps shapechanging into something. I know that if *I* wanted to take out a psion, I could do it with little to-do. Or, perhaps he doesn't, considering that magic can be houseruled because it's 'balanced' but psionics cannot. By all means...enlighten us. My statement still stands. And it's getting weaker by the moment. You will never get two people on opposite sides of the debate to agree on what a realistic model is, and you should not. I completely agree. But I did "honestly" try to make a realistic model for each. I tried to build a evoker with some good power too him and do the same for a kineticist. Each have roughly similar abilities, but the kineticist is just WAY over the top compared to what he can do in a moments notice that the evoker just dreams about. You will find a decidedly cold reception here because fans of anything will reject out of principal anything that attempts to describe their preference as unacceptable or wrong, and psionics is no different. Sadly that does seem to be the case. No matter how I put examples forward it doesn't seem to change the thick-headed. But, it doesn't stop me from trying. Maybe I'll reach a few people, and that, IMO is worth it. 470 pp spent. In a 3 round period. Ironically enough, that's 5 more pp than Gouda actually has. Actually, I was just showing 3 different combinations, not saything that they'd all be used at once...just showing the possibilities. Minor correction, YIDM proposed three 3 round schemes that totaled 470 power points, the most expensive of which was 237 power points. Correct. So the evoker build is illeagle since he can't cast False Life. I corrected that...good catch. (sorry for the confusion) Also how many people is energy current hitting? I mean you called it a AOE effect, but is it. Can you go more into what the powers are being arguemented to do? Actually I called it "both AoE and single target" cause the tornado blasts do the AoE (and could be concentrated on a single target) and the energy current is single target. YIDM, why do you keep doing this? Like a moth to the flame, I followed your last thread that got locked down. Do you think all psionics users are going to throw up their hands and say, "Wow, YIDM, you're right. Psionics is terrible. Let's abandon it," and then nobody will buy the books, WOTC will pull it off the presses, and psionics will never be heard of again? I'm not trying to get rid of pisonics, in fact, I use them in my Eberron & FR games, and love them. I just want people to see they are, by far, the most overpowered thing in comparison to Core stuff. They are the most easily abused and most versatile in combat situations (which is largely what we care about when it comes to game balance). All these posts and someone has yet to tell me what YIDM means... Sorry, in 1 days time, over 30+ responses. I've only been gone a day. YIDM's the guy at the top of the post, who pointed out that a kineticist can beat a dumb evoker by cheating And I've shown, he's not cheating, nor is he dumb. It's a realstic model of both classes (or at least that could be argued). And...there's no rules violations here...so try agian. It all comes back to the same old argument: just because psionics is better in this one area than magic, its overpower'd? Can nothing be better at anything than magic? It's one thing to be "better" and another entirely to be so over the top as to make the other obsolete. This is what some have argued, such as myself. Your Immortal DM PS - you'll note how I picked the scarab of protection for both builds, even though a kineticist would much prefer a torque of power preservation. Considering the horrible nature of energy drain and death effects, I considered it a better use of resources / defenses. (hence a 'realistic' model for both builds)
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 02:41 PM	See what I mean about him ignoring everything that everyone says that disproves his points? He blithely runs along, not bothering to alter his views in the least, and says psionics is overpowered because it does something substandard very slightly better than a wizard does (and even that is hardly the case, if you actually look at what each class can do). He. Is. Trolling. And his posts are not worth directly responding to.
Red12 11-24-06, 02:44 PM	It's one thing to be "better" and another entirely to be so over the top as to make the other obsolete. This is what some have argued, such as myself. Your Immortal DM Well, then standard magic is overpower'd x10. It's save or dies, save or end-combats, summoning, utility, healing, buffing, illusions, necromancy, crafting, and party-buffing are all incredibly more powerful than the psionic versions, enough to make them "obsolete". So it is ludacris to claim that because one is better than the other (note, this is not significant, just slightly) in a certain feild (note, ONE feild), that the other is obsolete. Maybe not *great* but still *good*. Unless you are making a claim that psionics are overpower'd AS AN ENTIRE SYSTEM in comparison to magic because it does better Direct damage, in which case anything you said or will say is just totally invalid. If only because that statement is so inane that my brain would just register your words as gibberish on a screen. EDIT:@ Lycantromaster: But... I just have to end... the suffering...
Your Immortal DM 11-24-06, 02:45 PM	I addressed each persons point with individual quote responses. What do YOU mean 'ignored'? I've gone through and explained every little detail and personally replied to individual statements? So...care for YOU to explain yourself? (Lycanthromancer) ----------------------------------------------------------- Unless you are making a claim that psionics are overpower'd AS AN ENTIRE SYSTEM in comparison to magic because it does better Direct damage, in which case anything you said or will say is just totally invalid. If only because that statement is so inane that my brain would just register your words as gibberish on a screen. Try this...why would anyone choose Wishes (the evoker) over Gouda (the kineticist). They both can do about the same things. They're both supposed to be good blasters and have save-or-suffer effects. Yet...its quite clear the survivability and combat prowess of the kineticist far exceeds that of the evoker. Your Immortal DM
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 02:49 PM	I've done so. And so has everyone else. You've utterly ignored everything that you didn't have a pre-canned response for (that have been thoroughly disproven, by the way), so anything I say that is of any use will have all of the consequences of talking to a Prismatic Wall. Any time anyone has made a point that flies in the face of your little 'psionics is b0rken!' sentiment, and that you could even vaguely concede to, you act as if it's not there. Why should I bother?
Your Immortal DM 11-24-06, 02:54 PM	Sounds to me like you just don't have any real input to add (which is perfectly fine if you don't). I haven't ignored anything (perhaps to some peoples dismay, at the multitude of my responses). Now, lets compare the two models of Gouda and Wishes. Is there something you find unrealistic? Did I not pick items appropriately? Considering they both have similar abilities, is there something I am overlooking that makes Wishes better that I'm not accounting for? Is Gouda somehow weaker that we realize? Is there a problem with the evoker (its a valid core class last time I checked)? People asked me to make a build to compare each two so I did. What do you have to say? (Lycanthromancer) Your Immortal DM
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 03:05 PM	To YIDM: Hah. As if. Consider your argument 'won,' if only because I don't really care what you believe at this point anyway. I've seen your argument strategy thus far, and it doesn't cut the mustard. Had you conceded to reality a few times, and realized that having psionics doing *anything* better than arcane and divine magic isn't broken, and not made us feel like we're beating our heads against a Prismatic Wall, then maybe, *maybe* I would deign to discuss this with you further. To Everyone Else: Told ya I wouldn't fall for it. I saw the 'Don't Feed the Trolls' sign, and paid attention for once.
Red12 11-24-06, 03:19 PM	Try this...why would anyone choose Wishes (the evoker) over Gouda (the kineticist). They both can do about the same things. They're both supposed to be good blasters and have save-or-suffer effects. Yet...its quite clear the survivability and combat prowess of the kineticist far exceeds that of the evoker. Your Immortal DM Fair enough. Now, from a pure gameplay point of veiw, answer this: why would anyone choose a Psionics Summoner vs Standard Summoner. why would anyone choose a Psionics healer over standard healer. why would anyone choose a Psionics buffer over standard buffer. why would anyone choose a psionics generalist vs standard generalist (oh wait, the former doesnt exsist). why would anyone choose a psionics illusionist/necromancer vs standard llusionist/necromancer? (oh wait, the former doesnt exsist) How about full casting progression PrC's? Not even gonna touch that one. ----- You houserule out gate? Fine, on a one for one basis, I houserule out schism. Hey, what happend to your superpowered psion? He's not so hot is he.
lears_fool 11-24-06, 03:19 PM	Now, lets compare the two models of Gouda and Wishes. Is there something you find unrealistic? Did I not pick items appropriately? Considering they both have similar abilities, is there something I am overlooking that makes Wishes better that I'm not accounting for? Is Gouda somehow weaker that we realize? *rolls eyes* What's absurd is the argument itself. Why? First of all, 20th level arena battles are silly, by 20th level characters don't live in arenas, and only in the lamest of campaigns is the ability to do damage quickly terribly important. Utility, divination, and other abilities are major factors and you can't adequately test how characters PLAY in arena battles. Second of all, Evokers and Kineticists aren't very similar. One's a psion, a class that knows 36 powers at level 20 and cannot select several useful powers from other schools without using feats. A psion can use extra pp to augment their powers to partially make up for their loss of utility. A Evoker, meanwhile, can have a virtually unlimited amount of spells to choose from and have wider utility in most respects. He can't augment his spells, but many of them scale automatically. That's a big variable and one you can't ignore. You don't compare a fighter and a druid for a reason, because they're so wildly dissimilar. Is a Ranger better than a Palladin? You say the Ranger's better? What if he's evil? Ooh, now the Pally is? What about a Barbarian vs. a Warlock. They're called 'different classes' for a reason. Secondly, how many hit points do these guys have? Looks like they're either is dead based on who rolls higher on the initiative roll (very common in these silly fake arena battles) Thirdly, in the interest of fake comparisons, why not offer up a counter comparison? A conjurer vs. a shaper perhaps? If they focus just on their summoning type abilities the conjurer could maximize timestop and toss out a veritable swarm of beasties while the shaper gets just his one lonely construct. Yet I don't say a shaper is inferior to a conjurer. . why? Because that'd be absolutely stupid. Any smart person knows that if you actually play the game it's not just about some imaginary arena battle. If it was people would only play wizards.
lears_fool 11-24-06, 03:23 PM	Fair enough. Now, from a pure gameplay point of veiw, answer this: why would anyone choose a Psionics Summoner vs Standard Summoner. why would anyone choose a Psionics healer over standard healer. why would anyone choose a Psionics buffer over standard buffer. why would anyone choose a psionics generalist vs standard generalist (oh wait, the former doesnt exsist). why would anyone choose a psionics illusionist/necromancer vs standard llusionist/necromancer? (oh wait, the former doesnt exsist) How about full casting progression PrC's? Not even gonna touch that one. ----- You houserule out gate? Fine, on a one for one basis, I houserule out schism. Hey, what happend to your superpowered psion? He's not so hot is he. Beat me ;) And great point on the full progression PRCs. A straight evoker's absoloutely unheard of. *pauses* (yes, they're all flaming) But regardless of their preferences . . they nonetheless also take prestige classes. Many of which are full progression. .something the psion has precious few of. That also skews the formula
mr.unknown 11-24-06, 03:37 PM	Precious few? I think if you only count core stuff, then full progression PrCs for a psion is down to 1: anarchic initiate. As for the other points, I also think its rather silly to limit one's model based on one function of one character build, then generalizing about two whole systems based on it alone, which is what YIDM seem to be doing here.
Dorian_Gray 11-24-06, 03:56 PM	As a fan of psionics, I would like to point out a very common fact - arcane gets much more support than psionics, the wizards can not only choose more spells to cast, they can also choose from more spells. That makes a big diffirence. Dorian
Your Immortal DM 11-24-06, 03:57 PM	First of all, 20th level arena battles are silly, by 20th level characters don't live in arenas, and only in the lamest of campaigns is the ability to do damage quickly terribly important. Utility, divination, and other abilities are major factors and you can't adequately test how characters PLAY in arena battles. Who said this was an 'arena' battle. I sure didn't. I said which seems like the better blaster? They both can do save-or-suffer effects, they both can summon, and they both have defensive/utility spells/powers. --Which is more powerful? (interpret powerful: which would you rather have in your party?) --Which is the "better" character (better is up for debate) Second of all, Evokers and Kineticists aren't very similar. Really? How do you figure THAT one? (I'd say their roles in a group party or on a battlefield are VERY similar) A Evoker, meanwhile, can have a virtually unlimited amount of spells to choose from and have wider utility in most respects. And I picked spells for the evoker; and they are not "unlimited" (they cost gold). I even gave the evoker no charge for his spells too boot. (which is mildly unrealstic; but wanted to get past that) I didn't charge him, so to TRY and make him competitive and not use all his resources in spell acquistion. (I gave him a realistic spread of spells for free) He can't augment his spells, but many of them scale automatically. And my combat analysis showed that the kineticist still does more even without the scaling. Secondly, how many hit points do these guys have? Looks like they're either is dead based on who rolls higher on the initiative roll (very common in these silly fake arena battles) Not really, not with the kineticist. He gets to turn on timeless body while his psicrystal holds the energy current and his schism mind attacks. I'd say its almost impossible for the evoker to beat that (short of retreating). Of which both have mind blank so they could never find one another. Thirdly, in the interest of fake comparisons, why not offer up a counter comparison? A conjurer vs. a shaper perhaps? If I get time I will. These builds took a bit of work. I needed to keep them "real" and viable builds for real-time adventuring (not just a 1-shot arena fight) And great point on the full progression PRCs. Who needs any? (I am also going off of core here) If I want even more power at the cost of two manifesting levels there is always the (overpowered) slayer PrC. Or, how about a Cerebremancer (then I get both magic and psionics; with "unlimited" utility, as you say). Precious few? I think if you only count core stuff, then full progression PrCs for a psion is down to 1: anarchic initiate. As for the other points, I also think its rather silly to limit one's model based on one function of one character build, then generalizing about two whole systems based on it alone, which is what YIDM seem to be doing here. Sadly, I'm no cray supercomputer, so I can only build a handful of models and base judgement off of my buddies playtesting experience and my own campagins. I can handle psionics just fine (and love them), but it is far more powerful than the core magic system (by a long shot). I figured the example / realistic build of a evoker vs. a kineticist would help to show that. To some degree I believe it has. To those thick-headed who won't see past their noses, no amount of proof will sway them. As a fan of psionics, I would like to point out a very common fact - arcane gets much more support than psionics, the wizards can not only choose more spells to cast, they can also choose from more spells. That makes a big diffirence. That point I would be foolish (and false) to argue. However, things are supposed to be balanced off of core. We have no way of knowing whats balanced/unbalanced in supplemental material. Hence, why I restricted this debate to core only. Your Immortal DM
NoldorForce 11-24-06, 03:58 PM	Precious few? I think if you only count core stuff, then full progression PrCs for a psion is down to 1: anarchic initiate. As for the other points, I also think its rather silly to limit one's model based on one function of one character build, then generalizing about two whole systems based on it alone, which is what YIDM seem to be doing here.Actually, there aren't any full manifesting PrCs in core. As opposed to the archmage, loremaster, and thaumaturgist. The disparity just gets worse outside of core.
RadicalTaoist 11-24-06, 04:00 PM	I like how people react with venom to YIDM and then are not impressed with his reaction. We don't need the reputation of being the prickliest board on these forums, guys. YIDM: If I could get close to that level of lethality with non-caster classes, what would this indicate to you?
MasonZII 11-24-06, 04:03 PM	For the record, look at range entries and Enlarge Power. "Level" is used in a context which clearly indicates ML, not CL. 14ML Schism overchanneling for +3ML is a ruling that'd be left to DM's discretion, and has no place in a proof-of-concept build. Same would go for trying to increase ML for the manifestation of Schism, or tack on Practiced Manifester. Until YIDM can come close to DH's core arcane build, his point is entirely defeated. And what's the deal with 3 rounds anyways? A nova is 1 round; anything still standing after the first round can either escape or kill you.
Salla 11-24-06, 04:09 PM	Why don't all of us who think YIDM is trolling just report the original thread and be done with it, and him?
lears_fool 11-24-06, 04:13 PM	Who said this was an 'arena' battle. I sure didn't. I said which seems like the better blaster? They both can do save-or-suffer effects, they both can summon, and they both have defensive/utility spells/powers. --Which is more powerful? (interpret powerful: which would you rather have in your party?) --Which is the "better" character (better is up for debate) And the answer to that it, it depends on the player and the party. If the party has another wizard it's often better to have the kineticist for his ability to adapt a bit more dynamically. If the party's got a Sorc or other limited-list caster then you want that wizard for the broad utility that you're missing out on. Really? How do you figure THAT one? (I'd say their roles in a group party or on a battlefield are VERY similar) Umm. .having played both, (though only an evoker once, just didn't fit my style) I haven't noticed that much similarity. It's kind of like saying that a palladin and a ranger have the 'same role'. GENERICALLY they do, but only in the most generic 'they hit stuff with pointy things' sense. And I picked spells for the evoker; and they are not "unlimited" (they cost gold). I even gave the evoker no charge for his spells too boot. (which is mildly unrealstic; but wanted to get past that) I didn't charge him, so to TRY and make him competitive and not use all his resources in spell acquistion. (I gave him a realistic spread of spells for free) I actually have no argument with your builds specifically. They are both functional builds. My argument is against the concept of comparing them based on such a narrow criteria. While it's not the bananas to acorns type comparison you get when trying to compare a rogue to a druid, it's still an apples to oranges comparison. And my combat analysis showed that the kineticist still does more even without the scaling. And he does. Though he loses a really good chunk of his total casting ability for the day. The ability of a kineticist to 'go Nova' so to speak has a serious side effect in that he's more weakened for the rest of the day after such an episode. Not really, not with the kineticist. He gets to turn on timeless body while his psicrystal holds the energy current and his schism mind attacks. I'd say its almost impossible for the evoker to beat that (short of retreating). Of which both have mind blank so they could never find one another. If one gets the drop on the other. . the other's dead. .sure there can be a bit of a chess match when it comes to what they do with their contingency. . but eventually one's going to get it wrong, and that one loses. It doesn't matter if one dies by 120 points and the other only dies by 90. Who needs any? (I am also going off of core here) If I want even more power at the cost of two manifesting levels there is always the (overpowered) slayer PrC. Or, how about a Cerebremancer (then I get both magic and psionics; with "unlimited" utility, as you say). The Slayer's nice, but the reqs are steep and it only really plays into the gish type class. If you check out the latest mage book you'll see a nice little class (abjurant champion, I believe) that pretty much wipes the room with the slayer as well as most other 'gishy' PrCs. Where things get unbalanced are with things like the initiate of the sevenfold veil, the luckspinner, the gnome shadowcaster, the runesmith, and the rest. There are a LOT of very potent full caster level PRCs for the wizard. And yes, of course they both also have the cerebremancer (umm. .who are you counting that cerebremancer AS exactly?) Sadly, I'm no cray supercomputer, so I can only build a handful of models and base judgement off of my buddies playtesting experience and my own campagins. I can handle psionics just fine (and love them), but it is far more powerful than the core magic system (by a long shot). I figured the example / realistic build of a evoker vs. a kineticist would help to show that. To some degree I believe it has. To those thick-headed who won't see past their noses, no amount of proof will sway them. It's not a matter of proof. I'll officially agree that PRC-less Kineticist can nova and do more damage in one round than an Evoker. It's just that I don't see how that plays out in the real world. My best psions and best mages have NOT depended heavily on blasting ability. And outside that I've found them very different but equally fun to play. .though admittedly the mage gets more out of the post-core material the psion does have a nice 'in the middle' system (with flexibility in between a sorc and a wizard really) that feels in some ways even more 'magical' Really, a Druid or Cleric or Artificer could wipe the room with either of 'em, but I still play them. . and other classes too! In the end, you made a valid point. . but it's a point that means very little to me. I've seen similar points made by psions and all over the place on the CO board. It also means very little in any well run campaign. . which is why we still allow Clerics.
Lycanthromancer 11-24-06, 04:19 PM	Why don't all of us who think YIDM is trolling just report the original thread and be done with it, and him? Because if this thread gets locked down, he'll just make another one. Which is exactly what he's done with this thread.
Lokiyn 11-24-06, 04:20 PM	Sadly, I'm no cray supercomputer, so I can only build a handful of models and base judgement off of my buddies playtesting experience and my own campagins. I can handle psionics just fine (and love them), but it is far more powerful than the core magic system (by a long shot). I figured the example / realistic build of a evoker vs. a kineticist would help to show that. To some degree I believe it has. To those thick-headed who won't see past their noses, no amount of proof will sway them. That point I would be foolish (and false) to argue. However, things are supposed to be balanced off of core. We have no way of knowing whats balanced/unbalanced in supplemental material. Hence, why I restricted this debate to core only. ` Your Immortal DM Saddly, you have proven time and time again in your other thread that you have little valid experience. In addition but it is far more powerful than the core magic system (by a long shot). is properly but it is far more powerful than the core magic system[and by core i mean a system of magic where by i take all the things that make magic over powered, then houserule them away, then complain that because of my houserules psioncs gains a small direct damage bonus over magic while ignoreing the fact that nearly 100% of the game past level 10 or so is no longer about direct damage but about control and save or dies. (by a long shot). and --Which is more powerful? (interpret powerful: which would you rather have in your party?) Wizard, hands down, psions have an infintesimal amount of non personal buffs, and those are bettered by wizards and clerics. oh noes timeless body, boo hoo hoo, This power is a waste of pp and a standard action, and it doesn't even stop a wizard. Tell me what sane wizard doesn't have forcecage a common evocation spell. Forcecage (7th, no save, no sr) + Dimensenal Anchor (8th, no Sav, sr) + (Solid Fog 4th, no save, no sr) means you now have a psion locked in a cage with no hope of escape no dimensional travel and you can just toss fireballs through the bars (with no penalty) and pepper him to death
Salla 11-24-06, 04:21 PM	Because if this thread gets locked down, he'll just make another one. Which is exactly what he's done with this thread. And then we lock that one until he gets thrown off the psionics board, or simply banned. Win-win, eh?
johnkretzer 11-24-06, 04:35 PM	Necromancy is an opposition school perhaps (fixed the false life typo) I am sorry considering he gets better spell if he did have necromancy. So figure he has Enchantment gone in stead. Then it would look like this: First Round:Quicken MDJ, Wail of the Banshee. Um.. I think that is sorta hard to beat. A psion can't do that. Also said psion would be dead even with Timeless Body as that will go away as well. Also why wouldn't a evoker become a Archmage? Or a lore master? Wouldn't that add to his power? I mean that is why I find your evoker build unrealistic is because of the lack of a PrC
johnkretzer 11-24-06, 04:46 PM	Not really, not with the kineticist. He gets to turn on timeless body while his psicrystal holds the energy current and his schism mind attacks. I'd say its almost impossible for the evoker to beat that (short of retreating). Of which both have mind blank so they could never find one another. How is your Kinestic having both mind blank and Schism up? That really doesn't matter just another example of you ignoring the rules to suit your point. But how does the evoker deal with it. Quicken Gate: Some outsider with Greater Dispel magic ability(theres alot), Then use a free action to Shapechange into something that is immune to the energy your energy current is pumping out(he could have shapechange up before the encounter), Then he holds a action to interupt your next action to hit you when you activate your next power with a disintegrate. Or some other mass damage effect.
NoldorForce 11-24-06, 04:49 PM	Also why wouldn't a evoker become a Archmage? Or a lore master? Wouldn't that add to his power? I mean that is why I find your evoker build unrealistic is because of the lack of a PrCIndeed, it's very easy for the example evoker to qualify for either PrC. The first can be done by swapping out some practically useless feats. (By the way, the evoker has three feats of little use: Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials. The kineticist has none.) The second is possible by the same means. Both would probably result in a net increase in power.
AntiDjinn 11-24-06, 06:18 PM	(By the way, the evoker has three feats of little use: Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials. He believes that the mage needs these feats to be competative with the psion for subtletly even though the contest at hand is damage. It is a common error because displays are not equivalent to components. The lack of components was built into the system for balance against the lack of free scaling. The Still, Silent, and Eschew feats are not actually built in as such, or else you would have the option not to use them to shave off power points (you would have the option to speak gibberish, wave your arms, or fling bat poop to save points if the feats were included). The mage who casts his silent spell can do so without making a sound, the psion who manifests a power with an auditory display needs to make a Concentration check to do so. The mage does not need to dispense with his components vs. a psion because the psion doesn't even have the option to counterspell (it is simply not on the menu for dispel psionics). Mages don't actually take these feats to any great extent and the inclusion of psions in the game does not make them more attractive.
FeceMan 11-25-06, 02:51 AM	I do enjoy how some people have gone and said that YIDM has "ignored" all the arguments put forth, but then refuse to back their own statements and dismissed him as being a troll.
Scion of Coldshard 11-25-06, 01:47 PM	I'm still trying to figure out why the original builds have the feat choices that they do. The psion makes sense, he is picking up powers that he could not otherwise get. Trying to cover his bases essentially, although there are a couple I'd probably skip over just for the sheer sake of spending so many feats on new powers. The evoker on the other hand has a host of feats which do not fit at all. First off he has item creation feats while the psion doesnt have any. Either they should both get them or neither should, otherwise the builds are just too different. Then the wizard has eschew materials, still spell, and silent spell which are all overcosted and generally useless plus maximize which is not used in the writeup and quicken which is also not used but could be used to suck up all of those 5th and 6th level slots allowing for a whole lot more damage to go through. With the feat choices switched around a bit the comparison might help a little more. Unfortunately we are still dealing with a weak area for casters (direct damage in general, although there are a few exceptions) vs a strong area for kineticists (high cost but ability to switch energy types). Yes YIDM, evocation is weak. No, this is not new information for you. In the thread that was locked down people said this repeatidly. There are reasons for it, people have done a lot of math and comparisons with it. I know personally that there is a lot of talk about it in the Myth threads as I did a bit myself. Next I suppose we will compare healing capabilities between the cleric and wizard. When the cleric comes out ahead I hope you go start a thread about how broken clerical healing is in relation to the wizards ability to heal. That should be fun.
Lycanthromancer 11-25-06, 02:54 PM	I do enjoy how some people have gone and said that YIDM has "ignored" all the arguments put forth, but then refuse to back their own statements and dismissed him as being a troll. We've already done that with YIDM in another thread. Over. And over. And over. And it didn't work. Why bother any longer? He's already proven his way of doing things, so why should I try any more? Yes, he does respond to numerous comments, but he rehashes the same material repeatedly to refute them, and always ignores the comments that touch on those same tired arguments. So, yes, I refuse to back up my own statements with him any more, because he ignores the ones he doesn't like. What point is there, if you're trying to knock down the brick wall of ignorance with the Jell-O mold of truth?
Tsuul 11-25-06, 07:56 PM	YIDM has stumbled on why no one goes a straight Evoker. But he will refuse to come to that [logical] conclusion. He has declared Jyhad. Let's neuter Wishes more. Give him Spell Mastery so that he can be more like a psion with no need of a spellbook. Why must the kittens suffer!
Lokiyn 11-25-06, 08:20 PM	I do enjoy how some people have gone and said that YIDM has "ignored" all the arguments put forth, but then refuse to back their own statements and dismissed him as being a troll. Tell you what, If YIDM is willing to place his comments in this format One sentence claim Support for that claim, and only that claim Next ClaimSupport for that claim an only that claim Then i will be sure to adress each one indicidually as i have time. For example The Kineticist is, numerically, a better direct damage dealer than an Evocation SpecialistThe Kineticist on average does "x" points of damage to a target while a equally specialized Evocationist deals z; As Z is < X the Kineticist is a better Dealer of direct damage The Ability for a psion to choose energy types allows them to deal more damage on average than an evocationistX% of monsters in dnd have Z Resitance to Y Energy type for these monsters the standard evocationist loses out because of Resistance Z to Y, as the evocationest does not have the acess to energy type Not Y Note that each claim support area applies only to that claim and is not the rambling jump around nonsence. [?list=#] One sentence claim [?indent] Support for that claim, and only that claim[/indent] Next Claim[?indent]Support for that claim an only that claim[/indent][/list] At any point if the Indented section references anything other than that specific claim it will be pointed out and ignored until corrected. Single claim single support, Random jumble no response.
Traevanon 11-25-06, 08:22 PM	I think a more fair comparison would be to recruit a willing Pro-Psion volunteer to construct an example of an abusive Arcane build at say... level 10 and get an Anti-psion volunteer to do the same with a level 10 Psion character. Core only. Standard cash. Compared on the following attributes: 1) Ranged Combat Offense 2) Overall Defense 3) Scouting, stealth and surprise 4) Group value, buffs, healing 5) Strategic assests (travel, wealth, social, skills) 6) Ability to overcome specific obstacles (doors, traps, negative energy, bad terrain, harsh environment) 2c
Bacris 11-25-06, 10:31 PM	I think a more fair comparison would be to recruit a willing Pro-Psion volunteer to construct an example of an abusive Arcane build at say... level 10 and get an Anti-psion volunteer to do the same with a level 10 Psion character. Core only. Standard cash. Compared on the following attributes: 1) Ranged Combat Offense 2) Overall Defense 3) Scouting, stealth and surprise 4) Group value, buffs, healing 5) Strategic assests (travel, wealth, social, skills) 6) Ability to overcome specific obstacles (doors, traps, negative energy, bad terrain, harsh environment) 2c It's been done. The wizard wins.
King Bulba 11-25-06, 10:43 PM	The wizard wins. Yep, thread over, no point respondeding. /sigh only if the troll would stop, but I have a feeling that YIDM (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83067.jpg)enjoys this to much.
AntiDjinn 11-25-06, 10:46 PM	It's been done. The wizard wins. Technically, it is Wiz x/Uber, full casting PrC YZ combo that wins. Functions as a 20th level wizard and has specials on top of that.
Lycanthromancer 11-25-06, 10:50 PM	And Anarchic Initiate aside, that's something that psionics can DEFINITELY not say for itself.
Kulthos 11-26-06, 12:45 AM	Speaking as a DM who had a campaign crushed by the not-so-exotic combination of clerics and a sorcerer with haste and polymorph, I am all for psionics. The sorcerer could spam polymorph to make every melee a battle between the foes and hasted divine powered rightous mighted grey renders. When the party was boosted they could cream things way above their level, so to make a challenge I had to hit them with huge things that would crush them unboosted. Every fight was either a cakewalk or a near-TPK as the power level of the party swung so wildly based on the buffs and dispel magic rolls. I was reduced to fudging dice rolls like mad to keep the party challenged and alive. I got sick of it and called the campaign, and the new one has severe limits on polymorph.
Psion 11-26-06, 10:22 AM	So now...evocation is a weak, near useless school? Well, if I were to make a specialist (and there is only one mage build I can think of running that I wouldn't do this for), evocation would usually be the first on the chopping block for schools I would give up. Evocation is the school of choice for the simple minded player who just wants to blast things. Things like the cleric show that wizards is willing to make less popular choices more popular by adding power to it. Evocation is an illustration of the opposite principle. The true illustration of the power of the wizard is one in the hands of a player who really understands the game with enough depth to understand that primitive but popular blast spells are not the most potent tools in the wizard's arsenal.
Traevanon 11-26-06, 10:26 AM	Did I forget to mention Core only? Nope I didnt, its right up there. I am curious then how you are gaining CL20 at level 10 with a Wizard without creating your own wild interpretation of the rules (I.E. cheating).
NoldorForce 11-26-06, 10:35 AM	Did I forget to mention Core only? Nope I didnt, its right up there. I am curious then how you are gaining CL20 at level 10 with a Wizard without creating your own wild interpretation of the rules (I.E. cheating).I suspect that it's more a consequence of inadvertently overlooking the 10th-level requirement, as comparitive builds are often done at 20th level. And there are some interesting PrCs available in Core.
floydmalkavian 11-26-06, 02:37 PM	Not to flame anyone, because it sounds like tempers are already getting hot, but I don't understand the point of this argument. The amount of resources spent on this debate is boggling. If you don't care for a particular aspect of the game such as psionics than don't use it, and let those who do like it enjoy it. It souldn't matter if it is balanced or not, that is for individual DMs to evaluate in their own games.
Your Immortal DM 11-27-06, 11:32 AM	Quote: Originally Posted by Salla Why don't all of us who think YIDM is trolling just report the original thread and be done with it, and him? Because if this thread gets locked down, he'll just make another one. Which is exactly what he's done with this thread. And then we lock that one until he gets thrown off the psionics board, or simply banned. Win-win, eh? I'm not trolling...thank you, come again! (so now we're conspiring to quiet me, interesting; perhaps that’s why no one who disagrees with you come here?) Sadly, you have proven time and time again in your other thread that you have little valid experience. Nice opinion, sorry to hear that. Well, unless you consider 14 years of DMing D&D, 2 years of RPGA (multiple games), my buddy Jon's playtesting experience & evaluations, e-mail conversations with Sean K. Reynolds, and 5 years of running epic (20+) level games with fights with quasi/demi-gods with 20+ buffs "no experience". (then I can't help you) My opinions are quite informed, thank you...However, I accept my opinions are also, by no means all-inclusive and/or fact; hence why I post here. Tell me what sane wizard doesn't have forcecage a common evocation spell. Forcecage (7th, no save, no sr) + Dimensenal Anchor (8th, no Sav, sr) + (Solid Fog 4th, no save, no sr) means you now have a psion locked in a cage with no hope of escape no dimensional travel and you can just toss fireballs through the bars (with no penalty) and pepper him to death. Sorry, that wouldn't work on our Kineticist build (and no, not all wizards/specialists have forcecage). The kineticist has got both dispel psionics, psionic disintegrate, and timeless body. He'd laugh at that trick. In fact he'd probably appreciate it for keeping big summoned creatures at bay. ;) oh noes timeless body, boo hoo hoo, This power is a waste of pp and a standard action, and it doesn't even stop a wizard. Nice opinion, I disagree (as do some others). I'd sure love to be invulnerable when the BBEG or Evoker goes to drop the motherload "nova" damage and I laugh, totally completely and totally invulnerable. (my schism brain could even ready action overchannel timeless body for this; or activate a psicrown of the temporal juggler - timeless body for me ). How is your Kinestic having both mind blank and Schism up? That really doesn't matter just another example of you ignoring the rules to suit your point. Last time I checked, you could voluntarily lower your immunity to something. An undead psion can most certainly lower their immunity to mind-affecting effects to be affected with [I]schism, right? So why not the other? (please justify your answer with core rules; we don't want to get into an argument of opinion here) Indeed, it's very easy for the example evoker to qualify for either PrC. The first can be done by swapping out some practically useless feats. (By the way, the evoker has three feats of little use: Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials. The kineticist has none.) The second is possible by the same means. Both would probably result in a net increase in power. I was making both builds "equal". Psions can manifest while grappled, silenced, with no material components & taking serious damage (with the elan). I needed to have "some" of the ability do the same thing with the evoker (if the comparison is to be a 'fair' one). Since I can't psychically reform (like the kineticist), I have to have those feats to make my metamagic rods. Or are we ignoring the issue of silence and grapple (and the inability to get the material components), giving further power to the psionic system and the kineticist build??? I do enjoy how some people have gone and said that YIDM has "ignored" all the arguments put forth, but then refuse to back their own statements and dismissed him as being a troll. I know...I can't win? (but I do try) We've already done that with YIDM in another thread. Over. And over. And over. And it didn't work. Actually you haven't. Tell you what, If YIDM is willing to place his comments in this format One sentence claim Support for that claim, and only that claim Next Claim Support for that claim an only that claim Then i will be sure to adress each one indicidually as i have time. For example The Kineticist is, numerically, a better direct damage dealer than an Evocation Specialist The Kineticist on average does "x" points of damage to a target while a equally specialized Evocationist deals z; As Z is < X the Kineticist is a better Dealer of direct damage The Ability for a psion to choose energy types allows them to deal more damage on average than an evocationist X% of monsters in dnd have Z Resitance to Y Energy type for these monsters the standard evocationist loses out because of Resistance Z to Y, as the evocationest does not have the acess to energy type Not Y Note that each claim support area applies only to that claim and is not the rambling jump around nonsence. I can try that -- where should we begin? (you choose) It's been done. The wizard wins. Really...show me? Cause my builds don't show that at all... Both are good solid 'real world' examples of each build too (with near equal capabilities; just the kineticist is better, far better) Well, if I were to make a specialist (and there is only one mage build I can think of running that I wouldn't do this for), evocation would usually be the first on the chopping block for schools I would give up. Evocation is the school of choice for the simple minded player who just wants to blast things. Things like the cleric show that wizards is willing to make less popular choices more popular by adding power to it. Evocation is an illustration of the opposite principle. The true illustration of the power of the wizard is one in the hands of a player who really understands the game with enough depth to understand that primitive but popular blast spells are not the most potent tools in the wizard's arsenal. I can't be certain, but I'm pretty sure Evocation wasn't supposed to be a useless school (by WotC design team). I pretty sure they meant for all schools to be near-equal after the 3.5 revision (which is why some spells got moved to different schools). I also heard several people state that in order to be useful the Evoker HAS to PrC to be useful. That doesn't seem particularly fair/balanced. So...in essence, if we don't "power up" the Evoker with some PrC he's vastly inferior to the base, run-of-the-mill kineticist??? (that's the definintion of overpowered folks; having to add stuff just to make the playing field even) Your Immortal DM
Ra-Tiel 11-27-06, 12:22 PM	[...] Sorry, that wouldn't work on our Kineticist build (and no, not all wizards/specialists have forcecage). The kineticist has got both dispel psionics, psionic disintegrate, and timeless body. He'd laugh at that trick. In fact he'd probably appreciate it for keeping big summoned creatures at bay. ;) And not all kineticists have schism, temporal acceleration, or psionic disintegrate, so where's your point? You keep trying to "prove" something to us on a "core only" basis, and yet cripple the wizard's ability that are in the Core3 by some rediculous houserules? No gate? No metamagic rods? You know, the fellowship could have walked right to Mount Doom if Sauron had not put up his army against them. :rolleyes: Last time I checked, you could voluntarily lower your immunity to something. An undead psion can most certainly lower their immunity to mind-affecting effects to be affected with schism, right? So why not the other? (please justify your answer with core rules; we don't want to get into an argument of opinion here) Which only applies to SR: SPELL RESISTANCE Spell resistance is the extraordinary ability to avoid being affected by spells. (Some spells also grant spell resistance.) To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance. (The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks.) If the caster fails the check, the spell doesn’t affect the creature. The possessor does not have to do anything special to use spell resistance. The creature need not even be aware of the threat for its spell resistance to operate. Only spells and spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance. Extraordinary and supernatural abilities (including enhancement bonuses on magic weapons) are not. A creature can have some abilities that are subject to spell resistance and some that are not. Even some spells ignore spell resistance; see When Spell Resistance Applies, below. A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance. Doing so is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Once a creature lowers its resistance, it remains down until the creature’s next turn. At the beginning of the creature’s next turn, the creature’s spell resistance automatically returns unless the creature intentionally keeps it down (also a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity). A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities. A creature with spell resistance cannot impart this power to others by touching them or standing in their midst. Only the rarest of creatures and a few magic items have the ability to bestow spell resistance upon another. Spell resistance does not stack. It overlaps. Mind blank, psionic gives an unmodifyable, defined benefit: immunity to all mind-affecting effects. If you could voluntarily lower that immunity against beneficial effects, it would have been mentioned right in the spell's/power's description. I was making both builds "equal". Psions can manifest while grappled, silenced, with no material components & taking serious damage (with the elan). I needed to have "some" of the ability do the same thing with the evoker (if the comparison is to be a 'fair' one). The builds you provided are not equal. First, the wizard wastes 3 feats trying to get "equal" to the psion regarding components/display. But on the other hand, I fail to see the psion's Imprint Stone that he needs to equate the wizard's ability to scribe scrolls. :uh-huh: :rolleyes: Second, a wizard would just dimension door out of a grapple, or prevent getting grappled in the first place, for example by using etherealness/ethereal jaunt, shapechanging into something incorporeal, or simply flying out of the grappler's reach. Since I can't psychically reform (like the kineticist), I have to have those feats to make my metamagic rods. Or are we ignoring the issue of silence and grapple (and the inability to get the material components), giving further power to the psionic system and the kineticist build??? [...] Again, the wizard would not need to have to craft the metamagic rods by himself, as these items are already granted by your all-so-valuable "core only" condition. Why don't I see a Craft Universal Item with the psion for his psicrown, hmmm? :thinks: --------------- On another note: your proposed tactics proove nothing. Your first tactic wastes over 50% of your daily resources. Congratulation, you're a crossbow-wielder before the day's over. Your second tactic requires the target to remain stationary within 75ft of you and not choosing to attack you for 3 full freaking rounds. Are you kidding me? :waits: Your third tactic is actually even worse. Again, you need to be at most 75ft from your target or otherwise energy current fails. And then you're throwing around a power that deals untyped irresistable damage in a 40ft radius? :confused: A single move action of your opponent will put you right in the middle of your own effects...
Psionx 11-27-06, 12:38 PM	These tend to get ugly fast so I'm requesting that some wizo kill this thread. Come on ppl, don't feed trolls. Too bad flaming isn't allowed, it's the only thing other than acid that gets past a trolls regeneration :wishes there was a troll smiley: EDIT: ok, maybe these trolls (http://www.designerdesktopwallpapers.suniliu.co m/pics/trollz_group.jpg) but not any other ones EDIT: Could I report bad post and get this killed? (Done)
Bacris 11-27-06, 12:42 PM	If you are going core-only to prove how something is too good compared to the wizard, then why would the wizard NOT use some of the best options available? It seems like you're trying to use a decent-tactic psion against a Slingblade-intelligence Wizard. I mean, come on, the psion is spending feat after feat on powers he wouldn't normally have, while the wizard is spending feat after feat on subpar metamagic feats. It's not apples to apples. If the search function worked, I'd find the posts that went over and over damage of wizard vs psion vs sorceror... They were done like 2 years ago.
MasonZII 11-27-06, 12:57 PM	Ah, so powerful and full-CL core PrCs are a liability. Thanks for clarifying that one. Look at how much we learn from this guy!
MasonZII 11-27-06, 01:11 PM	If the search function worked, I'd find the posts that went over and over damage of wizard vs psion vs sorceror... They were done like 2 years ago. I linked to DH's analysis earlier in the thread. He had a core-only nova wizard that outdamaged all YIDM's builds in a single round. Let's face it, YIDM created a highly-gerrymandered contest ( -only comparing HP damage output, -restricted to core, -3 rounds (to get more mileage out of schism, which gets dwarfed by TA/TS in a 1 round comparison), -weird restrictions on the wizard, -and weirdly expansive assumed rulings on the psion ), and lost it. Those who feel the need to defend psionics should thank him, as he made your point quite clearly.
Your Immortal DM 11-27-06, 01:19 PM	And not all kineticists have schism, temporal acceleration, or psionic disintegrate, so where's your point? As my example showed it’s easy enough to get them. Also, why are we arguing - my evoker build HAS forcecage in it??? (so why are you complaining?) You keep trying to "prove" something to us on a "core only" basis, and yet cripple the wizard's ability that are in the Core3 by some ridiculous houserules? What rules are those? Have I stated any? (not to my knowledge) No gate? No metamagic rods? You know, the fellowship could have walked right to Mount Doom if Sauron had not put up his army against them. My evoker build has both gate and metamagic rods in it...soooooo...what's YOUR point? The builds you provided are not equal. First, the wizard wastes 3 feats trying to get "equal" to the psion regarding components/display. Bingo. You're RIGHT. He HAS to waste 3 feats, just to be equal in that respect. This is an issue of balance (psionics vs. magic), hence why I picked them up. But on the other hand, I fail to see the psion's Imprint Stone that he needs to equate the wizard's ability to scribe scrolls. Looks roughly equal to me (similar item creation feats). Not so with the free silent, still, and eschew materials that the psionics gets... Second, a wizard would just dimension door out of a grapple, or prevent getting grappled in the first place, for example by using etherealness/ethereal jaunt, shapechanging into something incorporeal, or simply flying out of the grappler's reach. What if he's in an area of silence??? He NEEDS Silent Spell (or a rod of silent) to compensate for that missing ability. As for etherealness & fly, he can't cast it if he's grappled or in a silenced area (so try again). The psion can do all these without spending 3 feats. To make the comparison a fair one, it required me to spend the 3 feats. (fair) Again, the wizard would not need to have to craft the metamagic rods by himself, as these items are already granted by your all-so-valuable "core only" condition. How so? Unless your world is overflowing with wizards making greater metamagic rods or willing to help you create some, the evoker may very well have to create them. This varies from campaign to campaign. (and that I will accept) Why don't I see a Craft Universal Item with the psion for his psicrown, hmmm? Easy. He got rid of the feat with psychic reformation after making the items. Hence the psion can be perfectly combat effective wasting only a small margin of XP (which will be made up via the 3.5 system of XP). On another note: your proposed tactics prove nothing. Your first tactic wastes over 50% of your daily resources. Congratulation, you're a crossbow-wielder before the day's over. Actually it doesn't. The 3 different attack routines could be used independently or all together on 3 separate encounters. Unless you run into the full 4 per day it will never matter. Also, you'll note the kineticist's got a psicrown of fiery ruin to supplement his ability (just like I gave the evoker a staff of evocation) so neither would be be "running dry" as you seem to think the kineticist would. Your second tactic requires the target to remain stationary within 75ft of you and not choosing to attack you for 3 full freaking rounds. Are you kidding me? And the psion can't move around a bit, forgoing 1 round of max damage to move / teleport? (while still doing concentration psicrystal attacks & schism attacks) Are YOU kidding me??? Your third tactic is actually even worse. Again, you need to be at most 75ft from your target or otherwise energy current fails. And then you're throwing around a power that deals untyped irresistable damage in a 40ft radius? How big are the maps you play on? I typically see a 30x50 square grid myself. Being / getting within 10-15 squares of the opposition seems par for the course as far as I'm concerned. (especially so considering the psion has teleport on his list) If you are going core-only to prove how something is too good compared to the wizard, then why would the wizard NOT use some of the best options available? Like what? I built a evoker and a kineticist (blaster type; with save-or-suffer effects & summoning). Because I choose Necromancy as an opposition school the comparison is totally / utterly / completely invalid??? I find that logic a bit flawed. It seems like you're trying to use a decent-tactic psion against a Slingblade-intelligence Wizard. I mean, come on, the psion is spending feat after feat on powers he wouldn't normally have, while the wizard is spending feat after feat on subpar metamagic feats. It's not apples to apples. As I said, I had to do it so the comparison is fair. The psion can manifest while grappled, in a silence area, taking damage, and unable to get access to material components (due to needing to make a successful grapple check). To have our Evoker be 'equal' in this regard, I kinda felt he needed something to handle that. I figured the 3 feats and making them into metamagic rods WAS equal. (since he can apply them on the fly to boot) Isn't that the definition of fair? (two things that can both do the same thing) Now our evoker build can be grappled, silenced, unable to get his material components, and still cast his spells. (to escape, break out, etc. --- just like the kineticist can) [remember: silence is only a 2nd level spell; easy to come by for enemies] Ah, so powerful and full-CL core PrCs are a liability. Thanks for clarifying that one. Look at how much we learn from this guy! No...its REQUIRING a PrC to be EQUAL that is the problem. I linked to DH's analysis earlier in the thread. He had a core-only nova wizard that outdamaged all YIDM's builds in a single round. And I am 100% certain it used non-core stuff (which we have no way of knowing if its balanced). So how does that prove anything??? Looky looky! I can take twined empowered lahm's finger darts (or shivering touch) + assay resistance and auto-paralyze anything with less than 30 Dex -- so the wizard is just fine right??? Your Immortal DM
lears_fool 11-27-06, 01:23 PM	I also heard several people state that in order to be useful the Evoker HAS to PrC to be useful. That doesn't seem particularly fair/balanced. So...in essence, if we don't "power up" the Evoker with some PrC he's vastly inferior to the base, run-of-the-mill kineticist??? (that's the definintion of overpowered folks; having to add stuff just to make the playing field even) Quick and important observation here. . . The Kineticist likely isn't taking a PRC because there are very few viable options for him. There is precisely one full manifesting feat in all of official literature, and that one only suits some builds. It's not unlikely for a player to make a lv 20 psion due to lack of PRC options The Evoker, on the other hand isn't taking a PRC because of your choice. I've yet to see any wizard actually take 20 levels of wizard! Never. Not once. Why? Because there are so many exceptional full-casting-level PRCs out there. Most wizards don't make it past level five as Wizard. And now, for the second point. . the more important one which was addressed in my initial reply to you. This sort of comparison is largely absurd. As a DM I've yet to run into a case where I've thought 'This kineticist would be more balanced as an evoker' or vice versa. At level 20 it's easy to come up with various quirks and clever ways to do uber things (look at the CO board for examples). . but in day-to-day play there is not a balance issue between kineticists and evokers. In fact, there is generally not a balance issue between psions and casters at all when played right. The Sorc has more raw damage output but the Psion's more flexible. The Wizard has potential to be broken but only if the DM actually gives them every spell and doesn't balance diviniation properly (since the wizard gains such a huge advantage over being able to prepare). The Druid and Cleric are generally perceived as the most powerful for good reason, but they're also often dedicating resources to assisting the rest of the party. . so in PLAY they're not generally unbalanced. Bluntly put. . . comparing psions to wizards is already an apples and oranges discussion. Putting them in an arena takes the absurdity a step further. A good DM has no problems balancing either class or handling the 'unbalanced' aspects of either. They're both great at blowing things up, other classes are good at other things. If you're running a campaign that CAN be broken based on a blaster's ability to do as much damage as both are prone to do (and sorcerers even more so!) then you're not a very good DM and the other players aren't having much fun.
Your Immortal DM 11-27-06, 01:48 PM	The Kineticist likely isn't taking a PRC because there are very few viable options for him. There is precisely one full manifesting feat in all of official literature, and that one only suits some builds. It's not unlikely for a player to make a lv 20 psion due to lack of PRC options The Evoker, on the other hand isn't taking a PRC because of your choice. I've yet to see any wizard actually take 20 levels of wizard! Since when are PrC's a 'MUST' in order for the game to be properly balanced? (that don't sound right) This sort of comparison is largely absurd. As a DM I've yet to run into a case where I've thought 'This kineticist would be more balanced as an evoker' or vice versa. Thing is the kineticist can do virtually everything the evoker can do, and can do it better, with more versatility. The kineticist would be vastly more desirable in a group situation, and is better when it comes to "nova" ability. Its such a far stretch in power that it makes the most "traditional" evoker almost totally obsolete. Anything that can do that so easily should questioned. At level 20 it's easy to come up with various quirks and clever ways to do uber things (look at the CO board for examples). We can compare them at most levels and see the that kineticist is always vastly superior (in group or by itself). So what's your point? ------------------------------ One more thing, considering how easy it is for a silenced creature (or) cleric to walk up and trip a wizard (or) grapple a wizard, I feel its certainly justified in having Silent Spell (or a rod of silent) as a fall-back option. If you are grappled, you can't get your material components and 90% of the spells are somatic, so Still (or a rod of sill) is certainly justified. You'll note my evoker build has ring of freedom of movement. He wouldn't have always had it, and it could get dispelled for 1d4 rounds, so, there is a reason (and a good one) behind my evoker build. Your Immortal DM
Bacris 11-27-06, 01:53 PM	Except that PrCs are part of core, and, as such, should be used in any comparison. It's been stated time and again that the wizard and sorceror classes have no reason to stay in the class past level 5/6. You not liking it doesn't make it invalid. WotC has made it pretty obvious that wizards should be taking PrCs - the fact that there are 3 full casting PrCs in core alone sort of emphasize that point. Regardless of if you LIKE that aspect of the game or not, it's built into the core and should be used as part of the comparison. psionics, on the other hand, has no full manifesting PrCs in core. Seems to me you're overlooking parts you don't like to favor your argument.
lears_fool 11-27-06, 02:05 PM	Since when are PrC's a 'MUST' in order for the game to be properly balanced? (that don't sound right) If you're making a 'balanced' 20th level character it doesn't mean anything if you don't include the campaign it's in. If you're in a campaign where no PRCs are allowed, then actually I DO think the kineticist comes out ahead of the evoker. If you're in a campaign where only the SRD is allowed, then I'd probably see them as largely even, though the evoker might gain an advantage from Archmage. And lastly, if you're in a campaign where you're using other material, the evoker starts coming out ahead just due to sheer amount of full-casting material. Of course, that's only in an imaginary perfectly spherical, frictionless world. In reality which one 'comes out ahead' depends far more on the campaign and the player than the build. Thing is the kineticist can do virtually everything the evoker can do, and can do it better, with more versatility. The kineticist would be vastly more desirable in a group situation, and is better when it comes to "nova" ability. Its such a far stretch in power that it makes the most "traditional" evoker almost totally obsolete. Anything that can do that so easily should questioned. kineticist is always vastly superior (in group or by itself). So what's your point? Umm. .where do you get this? Having played 3.E since it's inception and D&D since it came in a little white box I'm not completely inexperienced in this. I've admittedly DMed for very few evokers (a red wizard or two though, very similar). . but I've never run into a situation where I thought 'ooh, these psions are unbalanced' or 'these wizards are unbalanced' . . I have noted that the wizzies benefit more from all the new material and feel bad for the psi-lovers. And clever players can get a lot more utility out of a wizard with spells like Shrink Item. But as an intelligent DM and Player I'm wise enough not to compare apples and oranges. One more thing, considering how easy it is for a silenced creature (or) cleric to walk up and trip a wizard (or) grapple a wizard, I feel its certainly justified in having Silent Spell (or a rod of silent) as a fall-back option. If you are grappled, you can't get your material components and 90% of the spells are somatic, so Still (or a rod of sill) is certainly justified. You'll note my evoker build has ring of freedom of movement. He wouldn't have always had it, and it could get dispelled for 1d4 rounds, so, there is a reason (and a good one) behind my evoker build. You are correct, a psion has an advantage casting grappled, though they still have a concentration check to make to do so. However, a Palladin suffers even less when grappled. . it's not a constant tactic however, as in my campaigns bad guys use a mix of tactics and don't just ignore the rest of the party and hug every caster they see. I suppose if we're going to actually discuss this I'd like to see a couple of things. . . . first of all, let's acknowledge that your LV20 wizard evoker is not terribly realistic. Perhaps in a no-PRC campaign a psion does indeed have an advantage. . but given that most of us allow SRD and even expansion prestige classes, a comparison that uses Wiz20 is completely unrealistic. I'd also like to address the fact that the comparison itself is quite simply not valid. It's quite difficult to make such an unrealistic comparison as the classes are so very, very different. Why aren't we including the sorcerer in here. . they can blast as well as the evoker and have plenty of gas left in the tank. . and perhaps a Sorcerer is a more apt comparison as they suffer from a similar spell-selection liability. The nigh-unlimited spell selection of the wizards and the availibility of so many PRCs really gives them far more breadth than the evokers and one must take that into account for comparison's sake. The wizard comparison just doesn't make sense to me. If all your kineticist or evoker is about is blasting then you're barely using your character. You don't compare barbarians and rogues or palladins and clerics. Or maybe you do? Do you have similar threads on those boards?
Ra-Tiel 11-27-06, 02:23 PM	As my example showed it’s easy enough to get them. Also, why are we arguing - my evoker build HAS forcecage in it??? (so why are you complaining?) I was not complaining about that, merely commenting on it. Slight but important difference. What rules are those? Have I stated any? (not to my knowledge) My evoker build has both gate and metamagic rods in it...soooooo...what's YOUR point? Oh yes, the metamagic rods he had to craft himself because the DM was too cheap to allow him to buy these core equipment for a theoretical arena exercise. Bingo. You're RIGHT. He HAS to waste 3 feats, just to be equal in that respect. This is an issue of balance (psionics vs. magic), hence why I picked them up. No he has not. You're overestimating this. What do you think how wizards run around? With a big red exclamation mark over their head reading "Hey guys, I'm a WIZARD!!11"? --> Disguise Self --> Veil Just to mention two possibilities. The least thing you want to do in a hostile situation is looking dangerous. If you look dangerous, you'll be regarded a primary target. If you look innocent, you'll be ignored. Therefore: look innocent dangit! Looks roughly equal to me (similar item creation feats). Not so with the free silent, still, and eschew materials that the psionics gets... No it's not. Primarily because the wizard gains that feat for free, and you didn't give it to the psion as well. Which brings me to another topic: why the heck does your wizard not have roughly 2 scrolls of every spell in his spellbook? Apparently, the psion has had enough XPs to craft stuff and reform and re-reform the appropriate feats, while the wizard was doing what? Picking his nose? What if he's in an area of silence??? He NEEDS Silent Spell (or a rod of silent) to compensate for that missing ability. pre‧vent [pri-vent] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –verb (used with object) 1. to keep from occurring; avert; hinder: He intervened to prevent bloodshed. 2. to hinder or stop from doing something: There is nothing to prevent us from going. 3. Archaic. to act ahead of; forestall. 4. Archaic. to precede. 5. Archaic. to anticipate. –verb (used without object) 6. to interpose a hindrance: He will come if nothing prevents. As for etherealness & fly, he can't cast it if he's grappled or in a silenced area (so try again). The psion can do all these without spending 3 feats. To make the comparison a fair one, it required me to spend the 3 feats. (fair) See above. A wizard has to plan ahead for emergencies. You just disallow this option for the wizard, and put him in loose-loose situations where he could never have prepared for. How so? Unless your world is overflowing with wizards making greater metamagic rods or willing to help you create some, the evoker may very well have to create them. This varies from campaign to campaign. (and that I will accept) No. Standard is, if an item is available in an allowed book, the character is in a sufficiently advanced society and has enough resources to purchase it, he'll get it. Anything else is DM intervention. Easy. He got rid of the feat with psychic reformation after making the items. Hence the psion can be perfectly combat effective wasting only a small margin of XP (which will be made up via the 3.5 system of XP). So, now the characters are not equal from the start, because the psion has apparently more XPs to toy around with than the wizard. Anything else to prove "equalness"? [...] Unless you run into the full 4 per day it will never matter. Which, coincidentally, is what the whole game is based (and balanced) around. :rolleyes: Also, you'll note the kineticist's got a psicrown of fiery ruin to supplement his ability (just like I gave the evoker a staff of evocation) so neither would be be "running dry" as you seem to think the kineticist would. Throwing non-replenishing resources out of the window because you couldn't ration your PPs? And the psion can't move around a bit, forgoing 1 round of max damage to move / teleport? (while still doing concentration psicrystal attacks & schism attacks) Are YOU kidding me??? How long do you think your psion is going to survive? 3 rounds in less than charging distance of an ECL20 mob is guaranteed death for any caster/manifester not specifically buffed for melee. And your psion is not buffed for melee. And please don't mention that pathetic 50 temp HPs from vigor. How big are the maps you play on? I typically see a 30x50 square grid myself. Being / getting within 10-15 squares of the opposition seems par for the course as far as I'm concerned. (especially so considering the psion has teleport on his list) I'm not argueing the size of the battlefield, but rather your tactics' requirement of staying to the enemy closer than charging distance.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 02:41 PM	Tell you what, YIDM. Since you like level 20 so much, why don't you make a single level 20 psion build - any psion build, any discipline - using the XPHB and the Core 3 only. I'll make a Core 3 only generalist wizard (since generalists don't get as many spell-slots as specialists, we'll give him that as a handicap). We'll have the psionics boards judge them for rules-viability, then we'll post them on the CO board and post our determined tactics for the first few rounds, against each of the following: 1.) 3 great wyrm gold dragons that are really, really, REALLY PO'd at us. Then, immediately after, 2.) Each other. Wizard vs psion. In both cases, you have to have enough resources left to take on at least 1 more 20th-level encounter for the day after the battles are over. This is analogous to 1/4 of your total resources left or more. And: 3.) We will also have one competition where we are told prior to our preparations for the day that we are expected to become as supremely versatile as possible, within our respective classes (but using the same equipment for the above 2). We will have one hour, no more, no less, to meditate, choose spells for the day, whatever. Then, each of us will have the CO boards look us over and judge who is the most suited for a day of random adventuring. The rules shall be as follows:1.) We use 3.5 rules as written (with a small amount of interpretation for leeway concerning confusing issues). No major rewrites or errata. I am restricted to the core rulebooks, while YIDM can use the core 3.5 rulebooks and the XPHB. 2.) Each of us takes our respective base-classes all the way to 20, or can use any of the PrCs in the DMG (for the wizard) or the XPHB (for the psion) (with 200,000 starting-xp), standard player-races only. Full 20th-level starting wealth. If you wish to use enough XP to drop you down to 19th-level, or even 18th, feel free. 3.) We use the following stats, situated however we see fit: 18 16 14 12 10 8. We will also use average hit points: 4 + ((19 + 4*19)/19) + Con hp, or 81 + Con hp. You can be any age category you want, but you have to take all of the benefits and penalties for doing so (note that elans are described as being immortal, which supercedes their maximal age). 4.) For the two vs matches, each of us are standing on a featureless, infinite plain. Flat, bare stone. The atmosphere is breatheable, and all of the rules are as the Material Plane (gravity, time, cosmology, etc). In the case of the character-match each of us are standing 100' away from each other. The dragons are released from an interdimensional gateway 100' away from each of us (after the preparation round). 5.) In each case, we have one round to prepare with buffs and such before initiative is rolled and either side can affect the other (or before the dragons are set loose to do their thing). During this time, we are not allowed to perform any action that directly affects the other, though we can do anything else within the rules. We cannot bring any temporary buffs in with us; the only ones allowed are permanent buffs, instantaneous buffs, and continuous-running buffs from items. (This is very, very, VERY important, so don't ignore it.) 6.) Other than the buffs allowed in #5, the only preparations allowed are general, which means things like resting and memorization of spells. We will only have a general idea that we will each be fighting for the day, which includes race and class levels (if any), as well as a general idea of power-levels. 7.) Each of our characters has known since level 1 that he is going up against another character specifically trained to take him out. All that each knows beyond this is race and class (I'm taking halfling wizard). We only get warning of the impending fight the day before, and we are not allowed reconnaisance of any sort beforehand. 8.) No more than 1/3 of total 20th-level wealth spent on any single item. 9.) Initiative is rolled at the beginning of the preparation-round. 10.) Each of us describes exactly what the other side can descern of our actions, in detail, every round (using skill checks as necessary). 11.) Losing entails one of the following: death, permanent disablement, being rendered unable to fight for 1 minute or more, surrender (which includes fleeing), or transportation out of the plane (other than instantaneous teleportation, or travelling 1 mile or more away from the other character. 12.) No custom items/feats/etc. Only RAW core and the XPHB. 13.) Full magic/psionics transparency. SR = PR. Powers and spells that have direct analogues are considered exactly the same in terms of general use, unless the description states otherwise; Psionic Disintegrate is considered exactly the same as magical Disintegrate, other than the specific mechanics that define each ability. They interact exactly the same as they would with the other side (except for specific cases, such as Dispel Psionic's inability to counterspell magic, the anti-psionic feats, etcetera). Powers and spells that don't have a direct analogue only work according to the rules in their respective books - powers that drain power points cannot drain spell-slots, simply because spell slots and power slots are not directly analogous, and neither is psionic focus. Detect Psionics detects magic, and vice-versa. Knowledge: Psionics is the same as Knowledge: Arcana. The same goes with Spellcraft and Psicraft, and Use Psionic/Magic Device. If anyone can think of any rules to add to those, or addendums to the above, feel free to chime in. So, YIMD, put your money where your mouth is. Make a build that can take care of all three challenges above. It has to have the potential to take care of all three of the above challenges, with a maxium of 50% of his current resources, so handle with care.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 02:56 PM	If you want, since the rest of the thread obviously considers evokers underpowered, I could make an evoker while letting you have either kineticist or any other discipline (since the board also considers higher-level kineticists underpowered). So, (underpowered) evoker vs (not-underpowered) non-kineticist (or kineticist, if you really want). What say you?
lears_fool 11-27-06, 03:13 PM	Well, personally I say get away from level 20 period. In my experience most actual playing happens at lower levels. . maybe 8-14 or so. Secondly, since real adventuring generally takes place in a party. . let's put 'em in a party. or two! Thirdly, since real adventuring actually involves more than raw blasting. . let's vary the encounters a bit. How well can they divine a secret? How well can they perform utility tasks? And fourthly, let's also do the same with Barbarians and Rogues. . and with Bards and Palladins Level 20 arena battles are very poor ways to determine how a character actually plays in a campaign.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 03:28 PM	Note that YIDM's primary concerns are with nova-ing and utility, and about direct-damage-dealers being superior to those that actually use, y'know, tactics. At level 20. I'm about to refute them. It should shut him up for a bit, or at least really, really annoy him. Either way is good for me.
Lokiyn 11-27-06, 03:30 PM	See Lists. Your Immortal DM A Wizard is required to take three feats, in order to duplicate an aspect of psionicsThis is an issue of balance (psionics vs. magic), hence why I picked them up. Looks roughly equal to me (similar item creation feats). Not so with the free silent, still, and eschew materials that the psionics gets...What if he's in an area of silence??? He NEEDS Silent Spell (or a rod of silent) to compensate for that missing ability. As for etherealness & fly, he can't cast it if he's grappled or in a silenced area (so try again). The psion can do all these without spending 3 feats. To make the comparison a fair one, it required me to spend the 3 feats. (fair)Counterpoint This is a fallacious argument. The thrust of this argument is that a wizard is required to match an aspect of psionics that is unique to that system. If this was applied across the board we will need to find a way for psionics to duplicate the wizards ability to change up spells known almost at will each day with no cost. As the claim itself is true, but based on a false premise both the resulting conclusion and conclusions drawn from such are also false. The Exp cost of Psychic Reformation is NegligableEasy. He got rid of the feat with psychic reformation after making the items. Hence the psion can be perfectly combat effective wasting only a small margin of XP (which will be made up via the 3.5 system of XP).Counterpoint Psychic Reformation has a variable exp cost for the purpose of any argument trivializing this cost it is necessary to provide when this power is used, how much it cost and the amount of time it took to recover from the cost. Size doesn't matterHow big are the maps you play on? I typically see a 30x50 square grid myself. Being / getting within 10-15 squares of the opposition seems par for the course as far as I'm concerned. (especially so considering the psion has teleport on his list)Counterpoint This argument neglects the game in so many ways. Lets keep it simple. The characters are not playing on small plastic squares on a flat surface. Battles can easily cover square miles of territory if both the players and the dm are playing thier characters, as opposed to playing an odd form of stratego. Also Remember that Teleport for a psion is Nomad 5 The majority of psions must wait till level 15 or spend a level 12 feat. Wizards on the other hand simply pay 800 gold or chose to take it for free. Psions with thier limited powers known are considerably limited This is a Fair and equal comparisonLike what? I built a evoker and a kineticist (blaster type; with save-or-suffer effects & summoning). Because I choose Necromancy as an opposition school the comparison is totally / utterly / completely invalid??? I find that logic a bit flawed. Counterpoint False, This Argument is designed around many strange and illogical idea. The most ominous of these is the concept that If the wizard cant do it it must be brokenandThe Wizard is the yardstick of balance The definition of fair?(two things that can both do the same thing)Counterpoint False, There are many definitions of the word fair free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge. legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules: a fair fight. moderately large; ample: a fair income. neither excellent nor poor; moderately or tolerably good: fair health. marked by favoring conditions; likely; promising: in a fair way to succeed. Meteorology. (of the sky) bright; sunny; cloudless to half-cloudy. (of the weather) fine; with no prospect of rain, snow, or hail; not stormy. Nautical. (of a wind or tide) tending to aid the progress of a vessel. unobstructed; not blocked up: The way was fair for our advance. without irregularity or unevenness: a fair surface. free from blemish, imperfection, or anything that impairs the appearance, quality, or character: Her fair reputation was ruined by gossip. easy to read; clear: fair handwriting. of a light hue; not dark: fair skin. pleasing in appearance; attractive: a fair young maiden. seemingly good or sincere but not really so: The suitor beguiled his mistress with fair speeches. courteous; civil: fair words. Medicine/Medical. (of a patient's condition) having stable and normal vital signs and other favorable indicators, as appetite and mobility, but being in some discomfort and having the possibility of a worsening state. Dialect. scarcely; barely: It was just fair daylight when we started working. in a fair manner: He doesn't play fair. straight; directly, as in aiming or hitting: He threw the ball fair to the goal. favorably; auspiciously. British, Australian. entirely; completely; quite: It happened so quickly that it fair took my breath away. I believe the word you are looking for is Equal as great as; the same as (often fol. by to or with): The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light. like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.: two students of equal brilliance. evenly proportioned or balanced: an equal contest. uniform in operation or effect: equal laws. adequate or sufficient in quantity or degree: The supply is equal to the demand. having adequate powers, ability, or means: He was equal to the task. level, as a plain. tranquil or undisturbed: to confront death with an equal mind. impartial or equitable. –noun a person or thing that is equal. –verb (used with object) to be or become equal to; meet or match: So far the rate of production doesn't equal the demand. If A equals B and B equals C, then A equals C. to make or do something equal to: No matter how he tries, he can't equal his brother's achievements. Archaic. to make equal; equalize. Obsolete. to recompense fully. The problem here is that you are equating "Same" to "Fair", Rather One must Equate "Equal" to "Fair" when comparing two separate mechanical systems. And I'm Done i haven't the wherewithal to continue this Farce. When you reach the point where you are willing to actually sit down and discuss mechanics rather than set up strawmen for us to be Ottomising, i'll return. Now as i was saying 'afore now. Please limit your arguments to mechanics and single line them with the format requested, i'll even throw in an example claim for you Psionics Is Overpowered; ComponentsPsions as compared to most casters of spells, do not suffer the penalties inherent with somatic, verbal and material components/Foci. Because of this inate ability to ignore limitations that many other classes are limited by this makes the Psion Overpowered in comparison to the standard Spell casting classes. Here is a Sample Template for those not proficient with indents and lists. [?list=#] One sentence claim [?indent] Support for that claim, and only that claim[/indent] Next Claim[?indent]Support for that claim an only that claim[/indent][/list] Understand this, I'll say it once, Building Arena characters is no way to judge balance. The fact that you use arena combats as such reveals a severe deficit in experience.
Esponer 11-27-06, 03:34 PM	The immaturity of many of the respondents in this thread (particularly the most prolific ones) is quite sad, really. And more generally, the very concept that one can discuss balance between character classes in D&D by comparing which can have a "build" at 20th level which slaughters three CR 27 creatures more easily than the other is ludicrous. (The reference there specifically refers to Lycanthromancer's recent post, but the point holds for the original post by Your Immortal DM.)
Azarias 11-27-06, 03:39 PM	I'm waiting with my popcorn for YIDM's answer to Lycanth. Seems a fair enough challenge. Let the flames begin!
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 03:53 PM	It's not just obliterating 3 CR 27 creatures in one go. It's the ability to nova at ridiculous levels, while still having enough resources left to handle yet another specified equal-CR encounter, and one that is not specified (whether this unspecified one is battle-worthy, or simply utilizing resources for non-combat encounters, is another matter altogether). In addition, a character should be judged on his ability to assist the party in one of the following generic roles (though there is some overlap, and very generic builds in some areas can allow for more specific builds in others): Arcane caster (blasting, summoning, buffs, and utility), Divine caster (summoning, buffs, healing, and utility), Skillmonkey (skirmisher, assistance to the Meatshield, and non-magical utility), Meatshield (protecting the others from direct physical assault while they do their respective things). This is the assumption that the core 3 makes, after all. Since YIDM is so fond of his 20th-level builds, I shall match his bid and raise him one. As analyzing a class in play without actually playing one is impossible, it is up to a more intellectual study. If you wish, we could each post our builds at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20, with each of them closely monitored for various criteria. This will be time-consuming, and won't be nearly as much of a shock when YIDM learns what a "CR 20" wizard can *really* do. Sometimes, you can't reason with someone. You just have show them, on a visceral, emotional level, that their point is flawed; people believe what they want to believe, and let emotions drive them without stepping back and looking at the whole picture. What I plan on doing is revealing the whole, horrifying Salvadore Dali oil-painting that is the 3.5 core wizard, all in one go.
Esponer 11-27-06, 03:56 PM	You either missed my point or ignored it. The idea of discussing the balance of various character classes by creating builds which are unrealistic (for starters, excepting any reasonable 20th level character to have a chance against three great wyrm gold dragons) is ludicrous and pointless. You seem particularly impressed with yourself that you think you could make a 20th level wizard build which is more irrelevant to D&D than YIDM's hypothetical psion — fine. But none of that says anything at all about the balance of two character classes.
Lokiyn 11-27-06, 03:58 PM	Ah the old Argumentum bacculinum Method
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 03:59 PM	Why not beat him at his own game, using his own points against him, all while staying firmly in the 3.5 ruleset and showing him how fallacious his arguments are? After all, he hasn't paid much attention to what we've been saying so far. Sounds like a fine idea to me.
lears_fool 11-27-06, 03:59 PM	You either missed my point or ignored it. The idea of discussing the balance of various character classes by creating builds which are unrealistic (for starters, excepting any reasonable 20th level character to have a chance against three great wyrm gold dragons) is ludicrous and pointless. You seem particularly impressed with yourself that you think you could make a 20th level wizard build which is more irrelevant to D&D than YIDM's hypothetical psion — fine. But none of that says anything at all about the balance of two character classes. That might be a bit harsh, I believe Ly's just saying 'I'm tired of reasoning with him, now I'll beat him at his own game', thinking that if the wizard wins, it ends the argument anyway. I believe Ly's among one of many of us who have observed that using a level 20 arena battle to compare character's viability is utterly absurd.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 04:03 PM	That might be a bit harsh, I believe Ly's just saying 'I'm tired of reasoning with him, now I'll beat him at his own game', thinking that if the wizard wins, it ends the argument anyway. I believe Ly's among one of many of us who have observed that using a level 20 arena battle to compare character's viability is utterly absurd. That is 100% correct.
Rusher 11-27-06, 04:03 PM	I am a bit confused as to your point YIDM. The thread started with Kineticists being too much, better then Evokers etc... Then you made a sample evoker that was trying to clone a Psion by taking feats to mimic a psion. Its like saying Pallys or rogues are better tanks and then make a fighter with feats dedicated to mirroring the pally or rogue to show how bad the Fighter is at tanking. They are different classes they are going to be different. Lets stick to your key point of who is a better blaster. Thing is the kineticist can do virtually everything the evoker can do, and can do it better, with more versatility. The kineticist would be vastly more desirable in a group situation, and is better when it comes to "nova" ability. Its such a far stretch in power that it makes the most "traditional" evoker almost totally obsolete. Anything that can do that so easily should questioned. Here is a clear statement. I think a glance at the spell/power lists alone will shown that a Kineticist can't do everything an evoker can do. That aside I would like to see how a psion becomes a more versatile, nova-capable and better all around blaster then a wizard without the putting "psion clone" restriction on him. You might as well force the wizard to burn feats to make all his spell slots spontaneous while you are at it. Regarding versatility. Yes, when going into the unknown I would have to agree that psions in general are more versatile on the first day. But a well studied wizard can do virtually anything with a single days preparation, assuming a well stocked spell book. A good arguement could be made for either case so I don't see how you can really get a concensus. PrCs The wizard has a huge advantage of powerful PRC options over the psion. If you feel that allowing prcs isn't fair and should not be included in the comparison doesn't that say something to how powerful they really are and what a tremendous advantage this is for a wizard? Personally, for simplicity's sake I would go with no PRCs for either wiz/psi and make the best builds & spell lists you all can. Anyway, I look forward to seeing more actual builds show casing strengths/weaknesses of each.
Your Immortal DM 11-27-06, 04:07 PM	Tell you what, YIDM. Since you like level 20 so much, why don't you make a single level 20 psion build - any psion build, any discipline - using the XPHB and the Core 3 only. I'll make a Core 3 only generalist wizard (since generalists don't get as many spell-slots as specialists, we'll give him that as a handicap). We'll have the psionics boards judge them for rules-viability, then we'll post them on the CO board and post our determined tactics for the first few rounds, against each of the following: I very very VERY much like this idea, sadly, after the responses I've gotten here, I SERIOUSLY doubt I'd be given a fair shake (or treated with any amount of respect, despite how nicely I've treated others). Anything I post will we dubbed "unrealistic", cheating / etc. etc. If our builds use rules "exploits" - will it be invalid? Example (irrelevant for our comparison) of exploit: shapechange (animal) + scrolls of awaken + Use Magic Device to get really high charisma and more hit dice. And you said: No major rewrites or errata. No errata? Why is that? Isn't that official change? Why 200,000? Why not 190,000 XP? Or is this cause you want to cast gate a lot to get epic creatures? For the two vs matches, each of us are standing on a featureless, infinite plain. So what if I teleport 10 miles away, then teleport back fully buffed within a few rounds? Is that valid? In each case, we have one round to prepare with buffs and such before initiative is rolled and either side can affect the other? What about psionic contingency (overchanneled temporal acceleration)? Is that valid? (for the beginning round) Each of our characters has known since level 1 that he is going up against another character specifically trained to take him out. That seems a bit unrealistic. Why not a more general build (like I made my builds)? That seems a bit lop-sided as there are several, specific feats that only function for "vs. psionics" and there are no such thing for "vs. magic". No more than 1/3 of total 20th-level wealth spent on any single item. I'll assume you mean no epic items. So, YIMD, put your money where your mouth is. Make a build that can take care of all three challenges above. It has to have the potential to take care of all three of the above challenges, with a maximum of 50% of his current resources, so handle with care. If it wasn't for the fact that I have garnered so much hate here; I'd be inclined to, sadly I don't think I can get a fair "trial" as it were. (the jury is biased; I declare a mistrial) Note: new jury must be selected and then sequestered. :) Note that YIDM's primary concerns are with nova-ing and utility, and about direct-damage-dealers being superior to those that actually use, y'know, tactics. At level 20. I'm about to refute them. It should shut him up for a bit, or at least really, really, annoy him. Either way is good for me. Alas, it won't shut me up. And...trying to bait me into a trolling grudge match isn't nice (and I'll have to check the CoC on that one too). Now as i was saying 'afore now. Please limit your arguments to mechanics and single line them with the format requested, i'll even throw in an example claim for you Psionics Is Overpowered; Components Psions as compared to most casters of spells, do not suffer the penalties inherent with somatic, verbal and material components/Foci. Because of this innate ability to ignore limitations that many other classes are limited by this makes the Psion Overpowered in comparison to the standard Spell casting classes. Here is a Sample Template for those not proficient with indents and lists. Lokiyn - here's the problem with your set up: Most times you can't look at individual pieces of a system cause they all interact. Everyone jumps down your throat when you say "Y" is imbalanced "because class 'Z' has disadvantage 'W' to make up for it." etc. etc. etc. Your model fails to take that into account. If I compare lightning bolt to energy bolt; I can't take into account all the things that go with the psion class vs. the wizard class (choice of energy vs. scaling effect, etc. etc.). Your model only works on a very very VERY narrow amount of comparison and is largely useless for this discussion. I do (seriously) commend its ability to be fair/through, but it doesn't work for our needs. The immaturity of many of the respondents in this thread (particularly the most prolific ones) is quite sad, really. And more generally, the very concept that one can discuss balance between character classes in D&D by comparing which can have a "build" at 20th level which slaughters three CR 27 creatures more easily than the other is ludicrous. (The reference there specifically refers to Lycanthromancer's recent post, but the point holds for the original post by Your Immortal DM.)I agree, but I am attempting to remain civil and talk about this in an intelligent matter and not resorting to “grudge” tactics. Your Immortal DM
Esponer 11-27-06, 04:09 PM	I think you should both (Lycanthromancer, lears_fool) note that my point was addressed at every suggestion of such unrealistic determination of class balance in this thread. I pointed out in my post that whilst I was referencing Lycanthromancer's recent post, my point was just as much to YIDM. I think you both might have the "We're at war, slaughter YIDM and his supporters!" disease, if you're both interpreting my post as being some sort of fight against Lycanthromancer (it seems you did interpret it that way, with stuff like "...a bit harsh... Ly's just saying"). Admittedly the first sentence in my post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10751796&postcount=89) was specifically referring to those who would probably classify themselves as YIDM's "enemies" (or as I phrased it in the previous post, the "many of the respondents in this thread"), because YIDM has as far as I've read remained civil and polite — the same cannot universally be said to all his respondents. Why not beat him at his own game... ? Because: It's rather dirty to create a straw man, accuse the straw man of being ridiculous and then use the existence of the straw man as justification for using the bad argument yourself. (It's also a rather funny way to get yourself into a position that you can use a bad argument and still feel good about yourself — hell, I might remember that one.) Ultimately, you're "beating him" (which, incidentally, is a ridiculous way to be thinking and sums up a good part of what I think is wrong with this thread and, indeed, every response to any concern of the balance of psionics on this forum) at a "game" which is absolutely irrelevant to D&D. The only possible accomplishment or proof from "beating him" in this "game" is stroking your own ego, and I'd like to think that most people are more mature than that.
lears_fool 11-27-06, 04:24 PM	If I compare lightning bolt to energy bolt; I can't take into account all the things that go with the psion class vs. the wizard class (choice of energy vs. scaling effect, etc. etc.). Your model only works on a very very VERY narrow amount of comparison and is largely useless for this discussion. I'm totally baffled here. You're saying that comparing two spells/powers is only working on a very very VERY narrow range of comparison. . . .yet you're comparing at level 20 in a completely unrealistic narrow manner with virtually no bearing on how these characters could actually play in a CAMPAIGN. You do understand that there's a bit of a disconnect there, don't you? Heck, when it comes to campaign viability the six psions are very different due to their divergent skill lists (telepaths being excellent faces, shapers being excellent crafters, etc.) and discipline powers. Comparing with no party involved, no skills used, no interaction with others, no variance, no discovery, and no campaign is about as useful as trying to brush your teeth while eating an oreo.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 04:58 PM	Anything I post will we dubbed "unrealistic", cheating / etc. etc. That's why we're going to the CO boards for posting the whole arena thing. The Psionics boards is just for determining validity (as they're likely far more familiar with the psionics rules, and so can make a much better ruling based on RAW than those at the CO bard could). Note that for fairness in all things, you have to note how much XP and GP you spent in research, item creation, psychic reformation, learning spells, etc, and at what levels you gained benefits from things like Tomes and the like. Be thorough - it's better to cover your arse with documentation than to leave it up to confusion. Be prepared to answer questions about your build, and either argue why, using RAW (in the SRD), your build is legal - or change it. In addition, look very closely at the Schism power, as well as Contingency - you cannot manifest more than your ML - 6 with Schism, and you cannot have Contingency up before being teleported in (as it's not a permanent, instantaneous, or item-based ability). Contingency CAN, however, be used for metapsionic'd powers whose pp expenditure is more than that of a 6th-level power - so long as the power itself is no greater than 6th level. If our builds use rules "exploits" - will it be invalid? Example (irrelevant for our comparison) of exploit: shapechange (animal) + scrolls of awaken + Use Magic Device to get really high charisma and more hit dice.For one, HD gained in this way counts against your XP total, as they are considered 'level-gains,' if you make them permanent. Even so, the Shapechange spell in particular would only last so long, and once you're no longer of the 'animal' type, Awaken is no longer valid. Exploits are fine, though they might just have unintended consequences (as mentioned above). That's why we're going to have the builds thoroughly looked over by both the psionics boards and the CO boards prior to the match. Anything like this that is unusual will have to be examined closely (from both sides). No errata? Why is that? Isn't that official change?And what errata are we going to use, eh? Polymorph changes every other day, and CPsi errataed the XPHB (but we're not using CPsi, so is the errata valid, or not?). Is The Sage (who frequently as not has no idea what he's talking about) allowed as errata? His rulings are apparently official. What about Customer Service? Ask them the same question 10 times, and you'll get 12 different answers, and their answers are definitely official. Much easier just to go as things are. Why 200,000? Why not 190,000 XP?Because we're both caster/manifesters. XP is needed for several staples of both classes, such as spellcasting/manifesting, item creation, and so on. XP is an absolute necessity for a psion, as he uses it instead of GP value for manifesting powers. Note that this is 200,000XP for use in the build, not "All the XP it took to make the character, change the character around using this and that power, or spell, plus item creation, as well as a full 200,000XP going in to the match." Full 200,000XP in the build, period. So what if I teleport 10 miles away, then teleport back fully buffed within a few rounds? Is that valid?Then you lose the match. Instantaneous teleportation through the Ethereal or Astral is allowed, but you have to stay within 1 mile of the match, or you lose. Plane Shifting to the Astral Plane, or to any of the Outer or Inner Planes means you lose. You can jump in an extradimensional space, so long as it's directly connected to the current plane, and you're not in some Genesis'd plane somewhere in the Deep Ethereal; if your connection to the battlefield is severed, however, you lose. You can also go ethereal, so long as you're coexistent with the battlefield, or partially exist within the current plane and an alternate plane. Basically, so long as it's obvious that you haven't abandoned the field of the challenge, you're good to go. What about psionic contingency (overchanneled temporal acceleration)? Is that valid? (for the beginning round)Note that this breaks the rules if you come in with it up. That seems a bit unrealistic. Why not a more general build (like I made my builds)? That seems a bit lop-sided as there are several, specific feats that only function for "vs. psionics" and there are no such thing for "vs. magic".Fair enough. That was a copy/paste job from another duel, where that would have held solid (note that *he* challenged *me*). However, we will know 24 hours in advance, generally, what we'll be facing, and what will be expected of us. We will be able to prepare accordingly. I'll assume you mean no epic items.Indeed. However, you are allowed to make any items that you qualify for, using what you have available to you, so long as the 1/3 cost rule is followed. I very very VERY much like this idea, sadly, after the responses I've gotten here, I SERIOUSLY doubt I'd be given a fair shake (or treated with any amount of respect, despite how nicely I've treated others). Anything I post will we dubbed "unrealistic", cheating / etc. etc. ... If it wasn't for the fact that I have garnered so much hate here; I'd be inclined to, sadly I don't think I can get a fair "trial" as it were. ... Alas, it won't shut me up. And...trying to bait me into a trolling grudge match isn't nice (and I'll have to check the CoC on that one too).It's not that your tone has been hostile; it's that you're rehashing the same arguments over and over and over again, even ones we've already countered (whether in the Myth threads or directly against your arguments). You've ignored the majority of the arguments that disprove, RAW, that psionics cannot do the things you claim. You compare powers and spells, and specific builds, that purposefully nerf the spellcasters and purposefully overpower manifesters (when comparing things more equitably would show that the wizard would be *at least* equal to the psion, if not more powerful, in almost everything). You present faulty arguments as fact. You have very strange ideas of where balance lay in a 'Standard' campaign (ie, a campaign as the core 3 and the XPHB suggest, RAW). You constantly abuse the Oberoni Fallacy, and state that core, RAW magic is balanced because you've houseruled it, but that psionics, RAW, is broken because you haven't. You ignore our arguments against you when we use them, then turn around and use our arguments against us when they suit you (normally when you're trying to argue a point based on a false premise). If you were the only person ever to have done ALL of that, then we might just be a bit irritated, and would tolerate it. Unfortunately, the psionics boards has to deal with an influx of this stuff almost constantly. It gets wearing after awhile, you know? After the 20th-time of someone doing this, and doing it with obvious intent, can you blame some of us if we start seeing you as trolling for the express purpose of annoying us? Seriously, can you? Yes, you've managed to keep your tone level (for the most part). However, the manner in which you present information is very, very frustrating for those who are trying to get you to see their points, and to counter yours. Good luck on the contest; you're going to need it.
Psionx 11-27-06, 05:45 PM	Oh man, the arena! It's so exciting! So who will be playing psion and who will be playing wizard? Is the infinite power point combo allowed? EDIT: Nvm, went back and read, Lycanth are you going to actually try hard or make a build that will beat him slightly?
Lokiyn 11-27-06, 05:56 PM	Lokiyn - here's the problem with your set up: Most times you can't look at individual pieces of a system cause they all interact. Everyone jumps down your throat when you say "Y" is imbalanced "because class 'Z' has disadvantage 'W' to make up for it." etc. etc. etc. Your model fails to take that into account. If I compare lightning bolt to energy bolt; I can't take into account all the things that go with the psion class vs. the wizard class (choice of energy vs. scaling effect, etc. etc.). Your model only works on a very very VERY narrow amount of comparison and is largely useless for this discussion. I do (seriously) commend its ability to be fair/through, but it doesn't work for our needs. --Why not keep it simple and compare the class abilities/features just by themselves??? (seems a bit more fair really) It's cause people who claim psions are balanced use this 'defense' to try and justify their position rather than just compare the classes by themselves. False. You yourself advocated restricting arguments to one thing at a time. It isn't a "Model" in the sense you are claimin in that it is not a simplified representation of a system or phenomenon, as in the sciences or economics, with any hypotheses required to describe the system or explain the phenomenon, often mathematically. What it is is a system where by each argument can be broken up into its individual components and debated rationally. What you have done is initiate nearly every Fallacious argument in the books. Nice opinion, sorry to hear that. Well, unless you consider 14 years of DMing D&D, 2 years of RPGA (multiple games), my buddy Jon's playtesting experience & evaluations, e-mail conversations with Sean K. Reynolds, and 5 years of running epic (20+) level games with fights with quasi/demi-gods with 20+ buffs "no experience". (then I can't help you) Back to topic: I'm comparing good old fashioned AoE damage (save for half), prior to the XPH, wizards and sorcerers were the king...hence why the complaints have wracked up against psions. It'd be one thing if the XPH had just come out (cause people always cry at the new broken power creep stuff), but the XPH has been out for a while and people are still complaining. lets see Ad Misericordiam, Petitio Principii, Strawman, Special Pleading, and just flat out ignoreing people who don't support your claims. Note that you ignored the three or four people who posted about the issues in favor of this ingnorant arena nonsence. A comparison to this issue is the claim. Hondas are better than Saturns. *Disscussion follows about the mechanics of saturns and hondas, where individual features are compared and the sum benefits of one brand or another are used to determine the better car* *Insert Honda modified for street racing vs Saturn Modified for street racing, but with extra parts to have it be the same as a honda for some inexplicable reason. Forgetting that being the same is not the same as being equal* *Now insert match to build the best car* Ignoring the fact that testing each other to build the best "Car" does nothing to determine which brand of car is better (if at all) to another car.
lears_fool 11-27-06, 06:00 PM	Originally Posted by Your Immortal DM --Why not keep it simple and compare the class abilities/features just by themselves??? (seems a bit more fair really) It's cause people who claim psions are balanced use this 'defense' to try and justify their position rather than just compare the classes by themselves. Yet you consider an ARENA vaguely valid? Basically you're espousing us using 'creation science' logic instead of actual logic
THETUNNELRAT 11-27-06, 06:04 PM	no contest they both die of old age :pbbbtt:
Esponer 11-27-06, 06:18 PM	lets see Ad Misericordiam, Petitio Principii, Strawman, Special Pleading, and just flat out ignoreing people who don't support your claims. Note that you ignored the three or four people who posted about the issues in favor of this ingnorant arena nonsence. That has to be the most despicable post I've read on these forums in weeks. Listing Latin phrases for logical fallacies does not make an argument. Let me illustrate my point. Ad "My Latin is better than yours"-iam. Not to mention that ad misericordiam and petitio principii, being the Latin words behind "appeal to pity" and "circular reasoning" ("begging the question"), are unnecessarily inaccessible words, highlighting that you're quite likely not interested in constructing a good argument, but feeling like you're "doing well", "winning" or "beating him". If you want to make any sort of contribution to this thread, go back over your list of logical fallacies and explain how they apply. I'd be interested in reading the explanation as I'm not convinced by most of them. Whilst not strictly relevant, my evaluation of YIDM's reasoning and the reasoning of those who have been getting remarkably hostile with him is this: YIDM's arguments are not all that strong, mainly due to "ad missing-the-point-iam", but the opposing arguments have wandered into begging the question so often that it makes me wince. Not quite as much as the degree of hostility (ad personam, darling) makes me wince, though. Incidentally, whilst I don't generally like being so critical in my posts, I'm too disgusted by how other people have behaved to be able to, in good conscience, not say anything. If one part of my posts happens to be enough to have this thread locked then whilst I'll feel a bit bad about having phrased something in a manner too critical/offensive, I'll at least be relieved that this nonsense is done with.
TheDarkLord 11-27-06, 06:23 PM	Before I desubscribe from this thread, I want to see his Psionic Kineticist against the Core only Wizard Nova Machine that was posted on the first page of this topic. YIDM completely ignored it from what I could tell.
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 06:32 PM	Have any of you noticed how this proposed 'arena battle' got YIDM's attention immediately? I didn't have to beg, or plead, or anything. If this is what it takes to get him to sit down and listen to us, then does it really matter if it's based on a false premise? And yes, I realize it's based on a false premise. But YIDM does not. And even reading this, I doubt he understands just WHY it's based on a false premise, as that is exactly what people have been trying to explain to him for the past two threads. And he still hasn't gotten it. Thus, if I demonstrate, under his own terms, why he is wrong, and in such a way as to leave no doubt that core wizard can be so much more overpowering than a core + XPHB psion, I might end up getting his attention. Which is more than I can say for any and all structured reasoning that we've seen thus far (degenerated into chaos as it has). If valid logic and reason won't work, use the tactics of the opposition, especially if it's all that they'll understand. I know that it will prove nothing to the majority of the people of the psionics boards, but they aren't the ones that we're trying to convince. YIDM is. Also: Dangit! I failed my Resist Getting Involved check!
MasonZII 11-27-06, 07:00 PM	No...its REQUIRING a PrC to be EQUAL that is the problem. Keep moving those goalposts. And no, wizards are not required to get a PrC to be insanely powerful ("EQUAL" my ass), but when there are nothing but benefits for doing so they're certainly compelled by logic. A compulsion you might do well to heed from time to time. And I am 100% certain it used non-core stuff (which we have no way of knowing if its balanced). So how does that prove anything??? Evoker5/Red Wizard 10/Archmage5 Feats: Leadership, Tattoo Focus, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Something Else) Items: Rod of Quickening (Greater) Class Features: Mastery of Elements Prepared spells: 2x Time Stop (Maximized Via Circle Magic) 10x Delayed Blade Fireball (Maximized and Empowered Via Circle Magic) What's non-core?
Psionx 11-27-06, 07:30 PM	If it were me out there (I'm horribly unoriginal), I'd manifest ego whip maxd for 20 pts of cha (daze follow-up) damage without save or 10 with it and most ppl know that wizards don't pour alot into charisma. Alternatively if I wanted to be useless for the rest of the day I could do a temporal acceleration and multiple delayed ego whips. What was that song? Something like: When a problem comes along ... ego whip it. When the cream sits out too long ... ego whip it. go forward move ahead detect psionics it's not to late ... to whip it ... ego whip. LIGHTNING SPEED EDIT: Due to some sage advice, a third party much wiser than I, I recant such actions but would like to remind lycanth of the power of infinite power points (A lot of consecutive buffs (temporal accelerations)). The song still stands tho...
lears_fool 11-27-06, 07:44 PM	Incidentally, whilst I don't generally like being so critical in my posts, I'm too disgusted by how other people have behaved to be able to, in good conscience, not say anything. If one part of my posts happens to be enough to have this thread locked then whilst I'll feel a bit bad about having phrased something in a manner too critical/offensive, I'll at least be relieved that this nonsense is done with. Before you get too critical, it might be good to observe the previous posts made by the OP that were referenced previously as well as the location of this particular discussion This is the psionics board, and psionics has enough issues from lack of support and it's fans are quite understandably a bit irritated by it essentially being attacked. If you look at the earlier thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=735021) it does appear that YIDM is to an extent trolling. He is avoiding the root argument that we agree upon (that the argument at it's core is utterly invalid) and is only responding to chances to 'do battle' so to speak. It's hard to blame the locals for being a bit agitated.
Scion of Coldshard 11-27-06, 07:45 PM	LIGHTNING SPEED EDIT: Due to some sage advice, a third party much wiser than I, I recant such actions but would like to remind lycanth of the power of infinite power points (A lot of consecutive buffs (temporal accelerations)). The song still stands tho... Good thing you put this in, I was about to point out that any mage should be completely immune to this in at least one of 3 different ways. At least I thought of 3 off hand, I bet there are many others as well.
Esponer 11-27-06, 07:57 PM	It's hard to blame the locals for being a bit agitated. I've read all of the "infamous" threads by Your Immortal DM, almost to the post, as well as quite a few of the other posts criticising the power level of psionics. My long-delayed conclusion is that psionics fans are often far too aggressive in their defence of their beloved system. As a group, you make me when I was 14 and perpetually offended by someone making a witty comment at my expense look good.
Psychokinetic 11-27-06, 07:57 PM	What a fasinating thread to read! I for one am now curious to see what each person comes up with. Even the quick lesson on Latin was interesting to read! I now love psionics and the Psionics board in a whole new way! Psion's rock! :w00t:
Lycanthromancer 11-27-06, 07:59 PM	Until he stops thinking that direct damage is the end-all-be-all for any kind of caster/manifester, he has no chance of seeing just why psionics are *not* overpowered. Yes, they can deal damage with the best of them, but that's not why many people consider magic overpowered. [edit] Also, I think this may have been his intended purpose all along - to get some poor schmuck to engage him in a contest of some sort. If so, I lose.
Scion of Coldshard 11-27-06, 08:04 PM	My long-delayed conclusion is that psionics fans are often far too aggressive in their defence of their beloved system. Yeah, kick a dog for long enough and it will eventually bite back. Stupid dog. I would have to say that out of most, possibly all, of the posts in this thread esponer I am finding yours to be the most hostile and aggravating. There are a few people around here that react too aggressively, but then the same could be said for every single board on this website. You might even be able to say the same for any message board out there. Comments like yours do not help the matter though, they only help to inflame it more. Especially in cases like here where the responses are somewhat warranted. The psionics system has been kicked quite a bit by the developers and by people simply not willing to think that anything which is different could actually be well made. We get a few beanies now and then and then are pushed back into the closet. Like I said though, kick a dog enough and it will bite back. I would prefer the kicking to stop myself, instead of kicking the dog for biting back.
Bacris 11-27-06, 08:09 PM	I've read all of the "infamous" threads by Your Immortal DM, almost to the post, as well as quite a few of the other posts criticising the power level of psionics. My long-delayed conclusion is that psionics fans are often far too aggressive in their defence of their beloved system. As a group, you make me when I was 14 and perpetually offended by someone making a witty comment at my expense look good. I have to agree to an extent. I think RT also made a similar post. I've been trying to make sure my posts aren't vitriolic or antagonizing, but I have to admit it is difficult when some posts by YIDM (and not all, I admit) pick out points to attack, as opposed to taking the whole argument into account. It's the general trend of the thread - psionics is overpowered because they nuke well. That's kind of a strawman fallacy, is it not? You set up the psion to do something that could be viewed as problematic and use that as your argument that the whole system is imbalanced, ignoring the myriad of other situations. While I tend to game in high-combat campaigns, if my psions only focused on direct damage, they'd have been pretty mediocre in party contribution. Using that single facet of the game as your argument that the system as a whole is broken is flawed.
Artector 11-27-06, 08:12 PM	Until he stops thinking that direct damage is the end-all-be-all for any kind of caster/manifester, he has no chance of seeing just why psionics are *not* overpowered. Yes, they can deal damage with the best of them, but that's not why many people consider magic overpowered. Now this has been bugging me. I know about the difference between Free-scaling and Augmenting, and how Free-scaling wins out. I also am aware that Save-or-die powers/spells are more effective at higher levels. But what about lower levels? Is psionics balanced at the lower ranges?, most powers do seem a *tad* high. At lower levels damage does matter, there are few to none save or dies out there. I'm thinking the problem with the psionics board being attacked may stem from lower level play where the Psion is doing more damage than the wizard. PS: Seems like as good as place as any to post this thought. Personal Note: I love psionics, balance isn't terribly important to me, I was wondering what everyone else thought on the matter.
crizhII 11-27-06, 08:14 PM	I've read all of the "infamous" threads by Your Immortal DM, almost to the post, as well as quite a few of the other posts criticising the power level of psionics. My long-delayed conclusion is that psionics fans are often far too aggressive in their defence of their beloved system. As a group, you make me when I was 14 and perpetually offended by someone making a witty comment at my expense look good. Noted. We're all very juvenile. We accept this and you can now move on to another thread. So YIDM are you going to put up or shut up? I think you will either shut up or make some whining excuse as to why there is no point or ignore the challenge and just continue to argue the toss with all the peripheral posters. May I request that Lyc. posts his Wizard build anyway even if YIDM takes the cowards route. I'd quite like to see just what can be done with a Wizard. I might even post a Kineticist build myself, see if I can't give a Wiz a run for its money.
Bacris 11-27-06, 08:21 PM	But what about lower levels? Is psionics balanced at the lower ranges?, most powers do seem a *tad* high. At lower levels damage does matter, there are few to none save or dies out there. I'm thinking the problem with the psionics board being attacked may stem from lower level play where the Psion is doing more damage than the wizard. Having played a kineticist from 1 to 24, a psywar from 1 to 8, and an egoist to 8 using metamorphosis, I can say that the damage done by my kineticist was nothing compared to using metamorphosis. My kineticist specialized in nuking and while he would drop some nice damage, it was something the barbarian was able to come close to in damage - mine were about 20-30% higher, but he could do his more often... and with a 17-20 threat range, he was critting pretty regularly.
crizhII 11-27-06, 08:30 PM	But what about lower levels? Is psionics balanced at the lower ranges?, most powers do seem a *tad* high. At lower levels damage does matter, there are few to none save or dies out there. I've kinda been wondering something similar. A level 3 Psion can dole out a lot of damage with Energy Ray but a third level Evoker that memorised nothing but Scorching Ray and Burning hands is pretty messy also. It seems fairly balanced, you can do a lot of damage real quick but then you spend the rest of the day firing your crossbow... And as for Save or Dies, Sleep is pretty horrid at low levels.
Esponer 11-27-06, 08:40 PM	Yeah, kick a dog for long enough and it will eventually bite back. Stupid dog. The fallacy there, I suppose, is imagining that there is a single individual kicking said dog. If on nine successive occasions, red-haired men kick a particular dog (always different red-haired men, and the dog can distinguish between them), is the dog justified in biting a tenth? Of course he's not: the tenth didn't kick the damn dog. You can't "save up" your "revenge points" and unload them on one particular individual. All right — many psionic fans have had to put up with DMs and other players deriding them. (Although honestly, it's not really that hard to ignore it, isn't it? It's not like they're questioning our worthiness as human beings or something.) That doesn't mean that the psionics forum is justified in being just plain nasty to people. I would have to say that out of most, possibly all, of the posts in this thread esponer I am finding yours to be the most hostile and aggravating. I'll keep that in mind, and read over my previous posts tomorrow to get an idea of where I went a little too far with some of my statements. I'd be cautious of the "aggravating" point though — defending somebody who's being "slaughtered" on webforums and asking for more politeness can indeed aggravate a topic more, but that's not the fault of the mediator but of the people getting worked up that someone dare try to mediate in the first place. That said, I'll look over my posts to see if I could've phrased things better. There are a few people around here that react too aggressively, but then the same could be said for every single board on this website. You might even be able to say the same for any message board out there. I'm tempted to throw off a "Tu quoque", but I realised I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't explain what that meant! That is, "you too" — the fallacy of trying to justify something by saying it goes on everywhere. Anyway, you're basically right: there are lots of people who react too aggressively (or too defensively, conversely) on the D&D forums. I think that the psionics forums can be pretty bad though: say the wrong thing in a topic discussing Monkey Grip and Powerful Build over on the Equipment & Combat forum, and you get derided a little. Say the wrong thing here and the page count gets very high very quickly. Arguments of overpoweredness here seem as bad as the katana threads. As for other message boards, it really does depend: I'd say it's half-half. Message boards rooted in games seem to have lots of aggressive and defensive folk in my experience. In my experience ones discussing anime/manga or representing some sort of group or society seem a hell of a lot more mature. Comments like yours do not help the matter though, they only help to inflame it more. Especially in cases like here where the responses are somewhat warranted. You might be right, but I want(ed) to give it a go. Think I might've needed a few more hours to calm down at my irritation before diving in, mind. I have to agree to an extent. I think RT also made a similar post. I've been trying to make sure my posts aren't vitriolic or antagonizing, but I have to admit it is difficult when some posts by YIDM (and not all, I admit) pick out points to attack, as opposed to taking the whole argument into account. Well, I'm intentionally playing "devil's advocate" here for two reasons. Firstly, I don't interpret YIDM's posts as badly as everyone else does. I'd criticise him on the grounds of continuing a discussion that he should know by now is just going to go to the gutter, but I've actually generally been impressed by his posts. Too much so to let him go without at least some defence. All right, so I don't agree with his conclusions, I think that some of his logic is faulty and I think he's as guilty as the next man of using straw men from time to time (noting that you can use straw man arguments simply by not understanding the other people's point of view, which is probably the most common source of them), but I don't think he's a troll and I don't want to roll over when people start saying he is. Yeah, all right, I find it outright frustrating that there have been replies in this thread far worse than anything YIDM has posted. It's the general trend of the thread - psionics is overpowered because they nuke well. That's kind of a strawman fallacy, is it not? You set up the psion to do something that could be viewed as problematic and use that as your argument that the whole system is imbalanced, ignoring the myriad of other situations. While I tend to game in high-combat campaigns, if my psions only focused on direct damage, they'd have been pretty mediocre in party contribution. Using that single facet of the game as your argument that the system as a whole is broken is flawed. I think it's important to recognise that this discussion has been railroaded in one direction. YIDM's original post gave a damage comparison, but he went to impressive effort to compare everything else about the kineticist and evoker, and proposed questions like comparing their "save and suffer" abilities. From his earlier discussions, he raises some very different points about psionics, as well. The problem is that he's usually been railroaded onto his weakest argument; that's how I see it, anyway. Points like the power of the slayer, and of vigour, timeless body and schism, are actually pretty decent ones in my mind. They are the strongest things in psionics, and are a little too strong. I'd argue that they're fine because they're within some imaginary "tolerance limit". In general I think that YIDM is going to too much effort and being too polite to be classified purely as a troll — that seems really quite unfair. Noted. We're all very juvenile. We accept this and you can now move on to another thread. Well clearly, I was hoping for a response more like, "Good point, let's not be nasty". Point taken though. If people just plain don't want to try to flame each other less, then my stating my opinion that people shouldn't be so hostile to each other isn't going to achieve anything. I must note, though, that I'll achieve no less than anybody else posting in this thread — indeed, if people only posted what was likely to actually achieve anything this thread wouldn't have existed in the first place.
Scion of Coldshard 11-27-06, 09:58 PM	The fallacy there, I suppose, is imagining that there is a single individual kicking said dog. If on nine successive occasions, red-haired men kick a particular dog (always different red-haired men, and the dog can distinguish between them), is the dog justified in biting a tenth? Of course he's not: the tenth didn't kick the damn dog. Actually, he is justified in biting every single one. Unfortunately he was a nice dog to start with and didnt bite the first few. As I said though, I would prefer no kicking at all. Just like I would prefer no biting. If someone comes in here kicking though and they are bitten one could say that they are both to blame but I'd still put more blame on the guy who was kicking.
King Bulba 11-27-06, 11:15 PM	The fallacy there, I suppose, is imagining that there is a single individual kicking said dog. If on nine successive occasions, red-haired men kick a particular dog (always different red-haired men, and the dog can distinguish between them), is the dog justified in biting a tenth? Of course he's not: the tenth didn't kick the damn dog. Ummm the dog has the right to defend himself. If 9 red hair men appear the same and all kick him and a 10th shows up and acts like the 9 men before it, then YES I think the dog is justified in a preemptive bite. Hell, the 10th deserves the bite for not stoping the first 9 from kicking the dog.
Tsuul 11-27-06, 11:55 PM	Is the tenth man a red headed step-child? Why didn't the wizard fill up all his feat slots with Spell Mastery??? No spellbook is a huge advantage for psions. Seriously. It'd be equal. Right?
Bacris 11-28-06, 12:07 AM	Well, I'm intentionally playing "devil's advocate" here for two reasons. Firstly, I don't interpret YIDM's posts as badly as everyone else does. I'd criticise him on the grounds of continuing a discussion that he should know by now is just going to go to the gutter, but I've actually generally been impressed by his posts. Too much so to let him go without at least some defence. I think the problem isn't so much his points (really). I think the problem, as has often been the case, is the delivery. Like it or not, delivery is more often how an argument is viewed, as opposed to the argument itself. I'm not saying YIDM came here with the sole purpose of kicking a hornet's nest, but I think with the somewhat rabid defense that many psi-fans take, if you're going to post something on this topic, it needs to be done VERY politically correctly or you get this sort of response. The psionics board, by and large, is very much knee-jerk on these sorts of posts. Not all of it is warranted, but it comes from years of a bad system (pre-XPH) and then years of almost constant posts when the system is actually pretty damn good, yet people still come to the board denouncing it. It doesn't make the wolf pack tactic justified, but it is the current situation. This by no means exonerates the board; the board as a whole needs to accept that there are going to be those who think the system or parts of the system are unbalanced. But to use an example, if everyone else you know drives a Lexus and you drive a Pinto (Core vs 3.0 psi) and they pick on you about it for years, then you finally upgrade from your Pinto to a Cadillac (XPH) and they still pick on you about it, you're going to be overly defensive. All right, so I don't agree with his conclusions, I think that some of his logic is faulty and I think he's as guilty as the next man of using straw men from time to time (noting that you can use straw man arguments simply by not understanding the other people's point of view, which is probably the most common source of them), but I don't think he's a troll and I don't want to roll over when people start saying he is. Yeah, all right, I find it outright frustrating that there have been replies in this thread far worse than anything YIDM has posted. And much as I like most of the folks on those boards, any flamebait, psi-fan or otherwise, should be reported. Everyone involved (myself included) needs to remain civil. I think it's important to recognise that this discussion has been railroaded in one direction. YIDM's original post gave a damage comparison, but he went to impressive effort to compare everything else about the kineticist and evoker, and proposed questions like comparing their "save and suffer" abilities. From his earlier discussions, he raises some very different points about psionics, as well. The problem is that he's usually been railroaded onto his weakest argument; that's how I see it, anyway. Except that this sort of comparison that he started this thread is by its very essence an invalid attempt at a comparison. 20th level is really a poor basis of comparison, as many others have pointed out. The course of a career is not retirement - it's everything leading up to retirement. Points like the power of the slayer, and of vigour, timeless body and schism, are actually pretty decent ones in my mind. They are the strongest things in psionics, and are a little too strong. I'd argue that they're fine because they're within some imaginary "tolerance limit". I've used Vigor and Schism - not so much Slayer (although SRD slayer is overpowered and I've said that time after time) or Timeless Body. I've never really seen a problem with either. Vigor makes you a good meat shield. A better psion may have it up, but won't actually need it. Schism just helps you burn out that much faster. It's great in a pinch, but I've never seen it cause a problem. In general I think that YIDM is going to too much effort and being too polite to be classified purely as a troll — that seems really quite unfair. I don't think he's a troll - I think he's good at getting under people's skin - although I can't say if it's intentional or not :) Well clearly, I was hoping for a response more like, "Good point, let's not be nasty". Point taken though. If people just plain don't want to try to flame each other less, then my stating my opinion that people shouldn't be so hostile to each other isn't going to achieve anything. I must note, though, that I'll achieve no less than anybody else posting in this thread — indeed, if people only posted what was likely to actually achieve anything this thread wouldn't have existed in the first place. Part of the problem with pure text conversation is tone is lost. I think that's a big problem with message boards. YIDM may be a very nice guy, but in pure text, the message is interpretted by the reader, and tone is very much mutable person to person. When I read your post, it came off as very crass and patronizing. You may not have intended it that way, but that's how I interpretted it. Just some food for thought.
Lycanthromancer 11-28-06, 12:23 AM	You know, if *I* was going to be going up against 3 CR 27s and a level 20 kineticist, I think I'd make judicious use of Shrink Item, along with some 67,200 pound granite boulders (1 cubic foot of granite weighs 168 pounds, and 67,200 pounds is the maximum that a level 20 casting can shrink). With a single casting of Telekinesis (once again at level 20) and some rather heavy boxes of shrunken boulders, I've calculated that I can dole out 1,008,000d6 points of damage, divided up to 15 ways. Telekinetically thrust the boxes - each thrust knocks out 25,200,000 pounds of boulders, shrunken down to a mere 375 lbs. Keep in mind, I could easily port in numerous boxes of these with a Gate spell positioned under a huge pile, and could blow virtually my entire arsenal of 5th-level-plus spells on nothing but Telekinesis and Quickened Telekinesis (though I'm thinking of just making a wand). So, YIDM, given that I can do an average of 4,032,000 points of damage on a single casting (and can do 2 castings per round, minimum), do you still want to do this? Or is psionics still broken compared to magic? Although it still needs a roll to hit. Do you think that a dragon's natural armor will protect it against 25 million pounds of rock flying toward it? Gee, I hope I can get past its DR... :dancin: :P :D (And there are innumerable other combos like this that are just about as broken. I could do one of those instead... I dare you to break core psionics like that. C'mon, I dare you. Kind of makes you wonder why people consider Vigor - or hell, the elan racial abilities - overpowered, doesn't it?)
SKB 11-28-06, 01:29 AM	The *vibe* I'm getting from the "Psionics is overpowered" folks is how power is attained in their games. As a player and as a DM, I do notice that it takes less player effort to attain a result of power, damage if you will, with Psionics then it does with Magic. But when a player uses more effort, brain power if you will, with Magic then the results are "Game Over Man". Psionics = power attainment for dummies. Magic = higher power attainment for rocket scientists.
Lycanthromancer 11-28-06, 01:42 AM	The *vibe* I'm getting from the "Psionics is overpowered" folks is how power is attained in their games. As a player and as a DM, I do notice that it takes less player effort to attain a result of power, damage if you will, with Psionics then it does with Magic. But when a player uses more effort, brain power if you will, with Magic then the results are "Game Over Man". Psionics = power attainment for dummies. Magic = higher power attainment for rocket scientists. Rock on, man. Rock on.
Psionx 11-28-06, 01:47 AM	Thats not fair tho, doesn't having infinite pp allow you to be more powerful than a wizard? EDIT: Forgot about damage capping.:doh:
MasonZII 11-28-06, 01:54 AM	The *vibe* I'm getting from the "Psionics is overpowered" folks is how power is attained in their games. As a player and as a DM, I do notice that it takes less player effort to attain a result of power, damage if you will, with Psionics then it does with Magic. But when a player uses more effort, brain power if you will, with Magic then the results are "Game Over Man". Psionics = power attainment for dummies. Magic = higher power attainment for rocket scientists. I'd agree in principle with your intro; psionics makes it easier than other systems for a new player to make a character that isn't a waste of his 5' square. Less material is a lot of that (it's unfortunate, but it's also less "light reading" for a new player), as is the discipline system, which ideally guides players toward roles and highlights the better powers (note: ideally). But on the other hand, aside from sorcerers, the other base casters are pretty flexible when it comes to fiddling with your character's spells as you learn more about the game. Psions aren't, at least until you get to 7th level (which doesn't necessarily occur a blink of an eye), and even then it comes at a price. Toss in a large percentage of powers that underperform in the long run due to their useless or missing augments, and psionics doesn't seem quite as noob-friendly. Particularly in comparison to, say, druids. I mean, come on.
Lycanthromancer 11-28-06, 01:59 AM	And yes, YIDM, those are the kinds of things I *do* as a wizard. Why blast for a 20d6 fireball when you can hit something for millions of points of damage, and all for the cost of a low-level spell-slot and some forward planning? As many have said before, an intelligent player can break magic all to hell. If your players haven't broken it nine-ways-to-Sunday, they're not playing up to their characters' genius-level intellects. You can't do that with the XPHB. CPsi, yes, but not the XPHB. The best they'll manage to do is recharge their pp batteries, or manage to get a few hours' blasting for a dozen or so pp. My previous combo can be done over and over and over again, ALL DAY LONG. Shrink Item can be Permanencied, which means that all of those thousands of tons of rock can be shrunk and reused, all for a few measly XP and a few minutes' thought. This is one of the primary reasons why people think that core-psionics is so much better balanced than arcane or divine magic. You cannot break psionics without breaking the rules. (It's also a reason why lots of people hate CPsi - it's eminently breakable, and ruins what people love about the psionics ruleset.) You can bend it pretty far if you use your head, but you can't break it.
Part-Human2 11-28-06, 02:22 AM	The purpose comparison is to once again, attempt to show how psionics are overpowered with a realistic model. This will allow all of us to debate the findings that can be seen/tested instead of theorized (and argued). ... Note: since I cannot comment on the game-balance of various supplements, this is restricted to CORE only. .... I believe you'll find, in almost every case the kineticist blows the evoker out of the water. Why bother even playing an evoker with such a more attractive option??? -dare I say it? [overpowered] How many times have you attempted to show this? It's really dumb to ignore all the suppliments, especially seeing how many include arcane stuff, some of which allows power-creep, unexpectedly powerful combos and abuse because of poorly written rules, abilities and spells. I dare say "Mr. Helman, go yell 'fire' in a crowded movie theatre!"
ORC_Paradox 11-28-06, 03:14 AM	For starters, yes, I've been keeping an eye on this thread. A reminder that trolling and baiting is against the rules. If it continues, warnings will be issued. It's also a bad idea to make a post to get a thread closed, as you'd end up getting a warning and possibly a name ban. Not worth it to get a thread you could easily ignore closed. I'd also suggest finding an outside volunteer to be the DM for the excellent idea for a build/CoCo face off. Now for my two cents. If you find psionics too powerful for your game, the simple solution is not to play one. Simple. Yes, I'm sure there are abuses possible, but that is very true for ANY character. My brother in a 1st or 2nd edition game wanted to change to a steel skeleton, and then intentionally blow his power roll to stay that way permanently. A DM could look at that and say "No, that's overpowered", or he could try and see what direction the game would take. And really, so what if the numbers show psionics are more powerful or not? A 1st level character can't go up against a Tarrasque and then complain the monster is "Way, way overpowered." While the game needs some balance, it doesn't have to be absolute balance. So, some classes do more damage than others. So some classes have a better will save than others. So what? It's the variety of the game that makes D&D fresh and interesting.
Your Immortal DM 11-28-06, 11:05 AM	Admittedly the first sentence in my post was specifically referring to those who would probably classify themselves as YIDM's "enemies" (or as I phrased it in the previous post, the "many of the respondents in this thread"), because YIDM has as far as I've read remained civil and polite — the same cannot universally be said to all his respondents. I appreciate that. (and that is high praise coming from you, especially considering the other responses I've gotten) . .yet you're comparing at level 20 in a completely unrealistic narrow manner with virtually no bearing on how these characters could actually play in a CAMPAIGN.No, this is just one example. We 'could' compare them at levels 5, 10, 15, etc. etc. and the result would be quite similar. The kineticist build would, on average, outshine the evoker build. As time goes on, the overpowering & versatile nature of the kineticist build shows itself more and more. At 20th its just the most "clear" to see, hence why I choose 20th. Note that for fairness in all things, you have to note how much XP and GP you spent in research, item creation, psychic reformation, learning spells, etc, and at what levels you gained benefits from things like Tomes and the like. Just curious here...how is that going to be reflected with the 'make-up' nature of the 3.5 XP system. Using psychic reformation back at level 9 & 12 to switch out a item creation feats (for which the items have already been made), the XP deficient won't even be seen at 20th. How is that suppose to work? (Just curious) What about psionic contingency (overchanneled temporal acceleration)? Is that valid? (for the beginning round) Note that this breaks the rules if you come in with it up. Just curious again...I can't have a psionic contingency (overchanneled temporal acceleration)? [already cast, ready to be triggered] Heck, if I were a psion, I'd have it on all the time. It's like a get-out-of-jail free card. Yet you consider an ARENA vaguely valid? When did I say this? No...I don't consider it valid. Before I desubscribe from this thread, I want to see his Psionic Kineticist against the Core only Wizard Nova Machine that was posted on the first page of this topic. YIDM completely ignored it from what I could tell.Sorry, you're not going to see it & sorry you feel that way. And yes, I realize it's based on a false premise. But YIDM does not. And even reading this, I doubt he understands just WHY it's based on a false premise, as that is exactly what people have been trying to explain to him for the past two threads. And he still hasn't gotten it. Actually I do, which is why I'm not doing it. It proves nothing (well...next to nothing - other than a kineticist can be a better, blaster than the evoker is). Originally Posted by DisposableHero Evoker5/Red Wizard 10/Archmage5 Feats: Leadership, Tattoo Focus, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Something Else) Items: Rod of Quickening (Greater) Class Features: Mastery of Elements Prepared spells: 2x Time Stop (Maximized Via Circle Magic) 10x Delayed Blade Fireball (Maximized and Empowered Via Circle Magic) What's non-core? Yea! Hooo-ray! And now "a" kineticist with a [I]psicrown of the temporal juggler, activates the crowns timeless body power with his schism action and keeps doing that (over and over), WHILE attacking his enemies (or the red wizard) with his regular standard action until the enemy (or red wizard) is dead. Great comparison & no contest, kineticist wins. So glad we cleared that up... I've read all of the "infamous" threads by Your Immortal DM, almost to the post, as well as quite a few of the other posts criticizing the power level of psionics. My long-delayed conclusion is that psionics fans are often far too aggressive in their defence of their beloved system. As a group, you make me when I was 14 and perpetually offended by someone making a witty comment at my expense look good.This is what I've been fighting. It's not the balance, its the psionics fans "love" of the system and that it can't possibly be overpowered. Anyone seen the supplements lately? WotC does this kind of stuff all the time. It's okay that psionics are overpowered (good DMs will handle it). I was hoping to show how a kineticist is a "better" character (in a group, or as a nuker) than a traditional evoker to help prove this point...but I just get tired of those who try and deny that psionics is more powerful. (I've accepted it and moved on) Until he stops thinking that direct damage is the end-all-be-all for any kind of caster/manifester, he has no chance of seeing just why psionics are *not* overpowered. Yes, they can deal damage with the best of them, but that's not why many people consider magic overpowered. [edit] Also, I think this may have been his intended purpose all along - to get some poor schmuck to engage him in a contest of some sort. If so, I lose. No, that's just uncool. As for the 'direct damage' thing, it isn't the end-all-be-all but it sure is somewhat important. It may not be at the "top" of the list, but it certainly isn't at the bottom either. (hence why I say its somewhat important) -Many defensive characters may have a lot of resistances/immunities/good saves/high AC/high PR&SR, but if you can just consistently/constantly crank out a bunch of typeless PR&SR no damage, they will die (eventually). Barring evasion, if you just throw tornado blast after tornado blast...things will die. Especially so if your schism brain can just activate timeless body (via power or psicrown). I would have to say that out of most, possibly all, of the posts in this thread esponer I am finding yours to be the most hostile and aggravating. I find him the most calm and reasoning actually (different strokes for different folks I guess). I have to agree to an extent. I think RT also made a similar post. Wow...this is the last thing I expected...someone to aid my defense. But what about lower levels? Is psionics balanced at the lower ranges?, most powers do seem a *tad* high. At lower levels damage does matter, there are few to none save or dies out there. It matters at higher level too, just not to the same degree. If a character can just keep tossing out consistent, constant, typeless damage, it's at least a worthwhile to have in a group/party. PS: Seems like as good as place as any to post this thought. Personal Note: I love psionics, balance isn't terribly important to me, I was wondering what everyone else thought on the matter.Perhaps I should have done a 5th level kineticist instead of 20th? (hindsight is 20-20) May I request that Lyc. posts his Wizard build anyway even if YIDM takes the cowards route. So wait...now I'm a "coward" for not doing something that everyone agrees is a pointless exercise in futility (I can't win! /cry). Say the wrong thing here and the page count gets very high very quickly. Arguments of overpoweredness here seem as bad as the katana threads.You can say that again. As for other message boards, it really does depend: I'd say it's half-half. Message boards rooted in games seem to have lots of aggressive and defensive folk in my experience. I hear ya...oh well...what can you do though? Well, I'm intentionally playing "devil's advocate" here for two reasons. Firstly, I don't interpret YIDM's posts as badly as everyone else does. I'd criticize him on the grounds of continuing a discussion that he should know by now is just going to go to the gutter, but I've actually generally been impressed by his posts. Too much so to let him go without at least some defence. And I sincerely, and honestly appreciate it. /bow I just wish I could show (by virtue of my many years of experience and my playtesters) how powerful psionics really are. Alas that's not something you can "transmit". You can try to show how powerful psionics "versatility" really is and how poor the "prep style" spellcasting is, and how much of an advantage things like immediate actions and predictable temporal acceleration is, but its not always clear (until someone experiences it for themselves). I think it's important to recognize that this discussion has been railroaded in one direction. YIDM's original post gave a damage comparison, but he went to impressive effort to compare everything else about the kineticist and evoker, and proposed questions like comparing their "save and suffer" abilities. From his earlier discussions, he raises some very different points about psionics, as well. The problem is that he's usually been railroaded onto his weakest argument; that's how I see it, anyway. Points like the power of the slayer, and of vigour, timeless body and schism, are actually pretty decent ones in my mind. They are the strongest things in psionics, and are a little too strong. I'd argue that they're fine because they're within some imaginary "tolerance limit". In general I think that YIDM is going to too much effort and being too polite to be classified purely as a troll — that seems really quite unfair. And it doesn't appear I'm going to change anyones mind (sadly). Seriously, sometimes I don't know why I bother. I figured showing some "builds" would help, but honestly, I don't think it even changed anyones mind. (I can't even tell if people actually looked at them that closely - despite the effort I put into them) I'm not saying YIDM came here with the sole purpose of kicking a hornet's nest, but I think with the somewhat rabid defense that many psi-fans take, if you're going to post something on this topic, it needs to be done VERY politically correctly or you get this sort of response. And I did come it with a bit of a "kick the hornets nest" mentality. Alas, I've been attempting to change that, but it appears I am 'labeled' now, with no chance of forgiveness. (oh well) With a single casting of Telekinesis (once again at level 20) and some rather heavy boxes of shrunken boulders, I've calculated that I can dole out 1,008,000d6 points of damage, divided up to 15 ways. Telekinetically thrust the boxes - each thrust knocks out 25,200,000 pounds of boulders, shrunken down to a mere 375 lbs. Keep in mind, I could easily port in numerous boxes of these with a Gate spell positioned under a huge pile, and could blow virtually my entire arsenal of 5th-level-plus spells on nothing but Telekinesis and Quickened Telekinesis (though I'm thinking of just making a wand). So, YIDM, given that I can do an average of 4,032,000 points of damage on a single casting (and can do 2 castings per round, minimum), do you still want to do this? Or is psionics still broken compared to magic? So that's what you're up to...using exploits. Well...a timeless body psion wouldn't care (that much I know). :) Great way to prove balance. Exploit the system and then say "see! magic is just fine!" (as long as you use exploits) wow...dunno what to say about that... And yes, YIDM, those are the kinds of things I *do* as a wizard. Why blast for a 20d6 fireball when you can hit something for millions of points of damage, and all for the cost of a low-level spell-slot and some forward planning?So...you exploit the system...and that makes magic justified somehow? (how does that make sense?) What if someone by virtue of opposition schools or DM can't take advantge of these 'exploits'? Then what? Just curious...what if you're DM uses the (often used) 20d6 cap on falling damage (dropped object or otherwise)? How is using loopholes and exploits for "justifying" magic's power proving that using psionics is balanced "as is" ??? So...if you remove the exploits/loopholes, and the game is played in a more normal sense, what does that leave for magic?...then what? (seems a very bad argument to me) I seriously can't believe you'd compare rules exploits and loopholes to justify your position, you seem way smarter than that (seriously). Or, is that the only way you can prove your point that psionics isn't overpowered (as many have suggested/complained)? Your Immortal DM PS - Thank you WizO_Paradox we'll keep it civil in here. I appreciate the input. (seriously)
Psionx 11-28-06, 11:59 AM	YIDM, the main problem with timeless body is that it lasts 1 round (and can't be used on his turn), all Lyc has to do is quickened MDJ (probably has a rod to do it for him) then hit you with the raining barrage from hell. You can change your powers with psychic chirugery, but you will only have a net of 36 powers to work with vs almost anything a wizard can prepare. If he really wanted to hit low he could use psychic turmoil to comparatively steal a 9th and a 3rd level slot from you each turn for 20 turns, and take the psionic hole feat with a buff to eliminate your ability to manifest powers with a cost of 17 or higher, hell, he could max out his wisdom score and buff it really high to use psionic hole: starts with 10 reads the book for +5 wears the pendant for +6 takes +1 wisdom at some level 22 wisdom +6 modifier You can spend a max of 20 pp on a single power, you must now spend 6 more, so now you can at best hit him with a power costing 14 originally, you just lost usage of every 8th and 9th level power against him as well as the ability to augment to your full capacity. If he wanted to be really mean ... all other 4 stat bonuses to wisdom +8 mod total 12 max vs him, no more powers of 7th level or higher and I'm sure through just this feat and some cheese he could win the battle before he entered the arena.
DisposableHero_ 11-28-06, 12:04 PM	....stuffIs WotC_Mark not moderating this forum anymore? I haven't seen him post in some time. On relevant material: I feel I should take the time to explain a few conclusions presented here without backing that came from psionics supports and are fairly well accepted around here. 1. Evocation is among the weakest schools of magic and 2. Direct Damage is not a very good tactic for high level characters This stems from the fact that it is among the least versitile and most replacable. It has been my experience that players who know what they are doing with specialist wizards most frequently choose evocation as one of their banned schools. The reason being that the specialty of evocation (dealing direct and radius damage) is both a less than ideal tactic at many levels and replicated in other schools. It is a less than ideal tactic for the simple reason that the hit points of most creatures scale at a faster rate in regards to their challenge rating than the damage a primary arcane, divine, or psionic character will be able to deal damage in a single attack. Due to this scaling mismatch (and one need only look at the monster manual or other more recent monster books and check hit point totals for certain CRs and compare them to the average damage of an offensive spell or power for that level to observe this) the ability of a primary caster to be able to fell a quality opponent with a single casting decreases dramatically as they increase in level. Meanwhile the effects of a failed saving throw come closer and closer to ending the combat immediately as the caster levels up, and the DC of those saving throws increases by one for every two levels he attains, the equivalent of a high saving throw. The concept of nova attacks brings this phenomenon further to light as while it does permit sufficient spells/power to be deployed to potentially destroy any creature printed in a single round with direct damage (note that CO world nova damage records were on the order of hundreds of thousands when I was writing them (almost a year ago), which was prior to arcane thesis, elven spell lore, complete mage, and dozens of other supplements in between) the resource cost in doing so increases as roughly the square of the number of attack spells required to do the job as is the case with any offensive nova that doesn't rely on degenerate mechanical mismatches for deployment such as synchronicity and spell sharing engines. Similarly attacks based on reducing saving throws and then casting a save or die against the targeted saving throw have similarly high probabilities of success (in specialized cases 99.75% and usually upwards of 95%) but require far far fewer attack spells in practice than pure blasting (due to the aformentioned fact that saving throws increase far slower than hit points) especially if one is willing to end the barrage at a lower percentage chance of success. Save depleting also tends to have less potential variance in its effect than direct damage making it easier to know what the probability of success is beforehand which plays well in a prepared caster when you must ration your offensive resources before knowing exactly the opposition you will face. The lesson learned there is that well chosen save or die spells coupled with spells that impose penalties to saving throws are a better form of magical offense at high levels than dealing direct damage is. In further practice one finds that because of the limited nature of casting/manifesting resources, the extra strain on these resources imposed by using spell based deployment tactics, and the ability for fighting classes to deal significant damage without expending any limited resources it is better for offensive spellcasting to focus on disabling rather than direct offense as there is a limitless well of direct offense available from other members of the party, and one need only provide a window to deploy that offense. For this reason the most powerful spells tend to be those that grant actions and those that deny actions. Moving back to direct damage, the optimal situations to use it are those where you can multiply the effect of an offensive spell by dealing damage to a large number of weaker creatures at once, and as such area damage is of significant use. Unfortunately for the evoker, area damage can be done by other schools of magic as well (conjuration, necromancy, and to a lesser extent illusion through shadow evocation) and given the lack of need for a consistant source of area damage (particularly with options like wail of the banshee, cloudkill and black tentacles for area save or dies, area save reduction and area disabling) evocation is not only one of the weaker schools of magic, it is also one of the most replacable. If you wanted a good comparison of those two characters, I would do it between levels 5 and 10, where their direct damage abilities are the most relevant to the game compared to a caster using save or die/save reduction tactics or a character specializing in disabling enemies of enabling allies. One concession that most here are not willing to make but I will say, is that Temporal Acceleration is better than Time Stop. This is because TA is available from levels 11 to 20, while TS is only available at levels 17 to 20 (those with enough CO background know this isn't always true but for practical discussion I think we can choose to ignore the woefully unbalanced accelerated caster PrCs). Upon reaching level 17 I would prefer to have Time Stop, but there are six levels of play there which are arguably those where nova style deployment is at its best, which makes temporal acceleration better by a practical standard even if the raw effect of time stop is more powerful. I hope that helps to put some earlier responses in context.
Bacris 11-28-06, 12:09 PM	Is WotC_Mark not moderating this forum anymore? I haven't seen him post in some time. Paradox took over a few weeks ago. It's all WizO's moderating now, instead of authors.
AntiDjinn 11-28-06, 12:42 PM	On the utility of blasting: It falls off sharply at mid to high levels. This is why there is a thread in the spells and magic forum trying to bolster the evoker. The reasons have been noted by gurus on other boards, but to summarize a few: Damage generally goes up by d6 per level (if you are a mage) or d6 per 1 or 2 power points (if you manifest). But your opponents may be getting d8, d10, or higher plus bonuses for hit points each level. When a mage goes from 7th to 8th level the extra d6 (3.5 damage points) on his fireball does not keep pace with the increased hit points of his average foe; he actually needs more fireballs at 8th level to get the same job done. Damage in D&D doesn't actually hurt until you are dead. Take the example of a party going after a single dangerous opponent such as a dragon. The mage decides to open with a lightning bolt to "soften him up", but the dragon doesn't actually get any softer. That tactic would work if we were playing GURPS, but in D&D a dragon with 1 hit point left does as much damage and fights as well as one at full hits. All you do with a lightning bolt, if it does not kill outright, is select the opponent's target for its return shot. Consider: When your PC gets hit with a fireball, do you say "I stand there for 1 round blinded by the pain, then choose to take -2 on my attacks to reflect the fact I am covered with horrible burns"? Of course not; you continue to fight at full capacity, just with a reduced hit point total on your character sheet. If the mage instead used the round to throw a debuff on his opponent (blinding it, dropping a few negative levels on it, slowing it, or otherwise putting it at a disadvantage) then he would actually help his party to survive the encounter. Direct damage is certainly a good idea when the opponent is on the ropes and only needs one shot to finish it; it is better as a closer than an opener. At some point just about every caster realizes that just blasting something all to hell and hoping it doesn't kill you first does not work as well as incapacitating or neutralizing the target then killing it when it is helpless. If you look at the evoker defense thread you will see that the favored evocations do more than just hit point damage; they also stun, debuff, move, or otherwise mess with the target.
crizhII 11-28-06, 01:00 PM	So wait...now I'm a "coward" for not doing something that everyone agrees is a pointless exercise in futility (I can't win! /cry). 1. You are a coward for refusing to accept a reasonable challenge to the closest thing anyone has proposed to an empirical test of your assertion. You have, as I predicted, spewed hundreds if not thousands of words in your last post but have managed to completely ignore the only relevant thing posted in the last three pages, which was where Lyc. said: "Put up or shut up." As you plainly don't intend to do the former please have the decency to do the latter. 2. Your pathetic excuse for not "Putting up" that "everyone agrees" that such an empirical test is stupid/pointless/infantile/(whatever other personal criticism you can think up to devalue the opinion of your oponent). Everyone? "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." I do not agree. Point disproved. Excuse/smoke screen gone. The only reason for not accepting Lyc's challenge is that you are either a coward or a Troll. Which is it?
Rusher 11-28-06, 01:14 PM	Well, I for one think a duel would be interesting. Granted it will not produce a clear "better blaster" since it depends on the participants. But it might show some different tactics to finish off a fight. I agree psions are top notch characters if well made. On a par with any other well made arcane casting character. But if you want to say its over-powered, OK. Fine. For your campaign it may very well be over-powered. But to say that it can do everything a wizard can do and do it better is just incorrect. Can we at least agree there are plenty of things a wizard can do a psion cannot? I am far from a expert wizard player, but here are some tactics a psion cannot duplicate. 1). Put up a Prismatic Sphere. Disjunction followed by a few polar rays (25d6 base which a psion can't do). For fun you can change the cold damage to acid with a sudden feat. 2). Spell Aim and Antimagic field on yourself. Blast away. 3). Meta rod Maximized Time Stop & Gate/gate/gate/wall of force(in front of psion)/telekinetic sphere on yourself and watch the fun.(gate in blasting creatures if opponents must die in explosions <- humor here) These could be considered 3 ways a 20 wizard beats a psion in which the psion can't duplicate using only PHB spells. And nothing really crazy like unlimited actions/loops etc... Granted Gate is just sick! Even if you forced the wizard to mimic a psion instead of building an actual blaster all these still work. Since a wizard can dispel a psion and his items and the psion can't return the favor it seems like an uphill battle at best for the psion.
bholdr_mage 11-28-06, 01:18 PM	...This will allow all of us to debate the findings that can be seen/tested instead of theorized (and argued).... Can is bold-faced to prove a point. This sentence is from the very first post; second sentence. Can is defined as ABLE. Or rather the ability to do something. Ralph is a casual gamer. Ralph enjoys playing psions and casters of all sorts, and Ralph really likes to roll lots of dice for devastating effects. However, Ralph tries to be civil and game well within his group; not hogging the spot-light and garnering everyone's envy...he may use a metamagic effect from time to time; or use some power to make certain things dissappear (time hop) to make things easier for his fellows. Ralph comes to his bi-monthly game to listen to a good story, laugh and have a good time, and use the game's escapist ideals to get away from stresses in his life. I personally think that's a good player. Then we have Gertrude. Gertrude is an exploiter. Gertrude gets every possible expansion from every 3rd party publisher and WOTC book to blow everything out of the water. In some degree, she thinks that if she can blast the BBEG for 37,654 damage as an immediate action, she will get respect...and that other players will gasp in how superior she is. I personally thing this player would never be invited to my house ever again. Ever. Period. Could Ralph become this? Can he use his psion/wizard the way Gertrude did? Sure he can, but he chooses not to because he wants the other players around him to feel like they are needed. Even if players stick with a player like Gertrude, chances are she will be alienating them at the table and during every combat more and more until they resent her. This would be like playing monopoly and owning 3/4 of the board with the remaining 5 players dividing up the other 1/4. That isn't much fun either. I bold-faced fun for an addition to the point. As stated in YIDM's other thread; if damage is such a defining issue, then it probably doesn't matter much if you deal 39,043 points of fire damage or 18,402 fire damage. It's probably burnt to pure carbon at that point either way. The real issue is the exploitation of any of the classes. Who exploits the classes? The DM? WOTC? The evil spirits bound into that hoodoo carving you bought in Louisianna last summer? (watch skeleton key...that movie's wicked and creepy) The weekly pizza? No...it's the player. It's always the player. Issues of "over-poweredness" stem from a player or a DM who exploits the system to try and be "better" or "break the system." As a DM, it's your job to look at such problems and ask yourself, "Do I nerf the powers, change the rules, or talk to the player?" And chances are, the best way to handle any problem in any role-playing game is to talk to the player. They'll either care about your game and everyone else's fun, or care about themselves and a false sense of gaining more fun. My point? Yes, you can exploit the game and break most classes like wizo-paradox mentioned for your own benefit and false feeling of invulnerability. Or, you can choose to play within reason; in which case fun will come to all at the gaming table.
Azarias 11-28-06, 01:25 PM	Come on, guys, I'm running out of popcorn :( Seriously (or counter-seriously), it's just a game. Or possibly a game within a game. Meaning it's all much more fun than tuning into the conflict(s) in the Middle East, and ideally should remain so. Let's have less ire and more fun, eh? A challenge at 20th won't prove anything conclusively, but it'll provide evidence which YIDM's (carefully worked) bare builds do not in isolation. And anyway, it'll be entertaining for the rest of us. I mean come on, I paid a hundred electrum pieces for this ticket. Let the flames begin! :)
lears_fool 11-28-06, 01:27 PM	. .yet you're comparing at level 20 in a completely unrealistic narrow manner with virtually no bearing on how these characters could actually play in a CAMPAIGN. No, this is just one example. We 'could' compare them at levels 5, 10, 15, etc. etc. and the result would be quite similar. The kineticist build would, on average, outshine the evoker build. As time goes on, the overpowering & versatile nature of the kineticist build shows itself more and more. At 20th its just the most "clear" to see, hence why I choose 20th. In what sort of campaign are we talking about? If it's pure hack and slash and there's no actual role-playing and no use of any abilities other than blasting. . then I'd pick a kineticist over the evoker any day (and a sorcerer over either!) However, if it's a real campaign with good guys and bad guys and a living world and skill checks and time to rest and plots and intrigue. . then that changes everything, because the concept of comparing damage done no longer makes a bit of sense. It never really did. And the two classes are too dissimilar in other ways (with the evoker having a comparatively massive number of spells available with preparation for example) to even begin that sort of comparison. Again, having played the game and DMed the game I've seen no evidence of a real balance issue. Wizards generally come out ahead IMHO due to a large amount of material available. .and as a DM I can limit this by limiting spell availablity and divinations and by increasing the 'pace' of the campaign. The fact that a DM can change the balance between Psions and Wizards just by changing the pace of the game completely and utterly invalidates any attempt to compare them based on power level, because their power levels change based on what -I- do in my campaign.
Lycanthromancer 11-28-06, 01:28 PM	I'm really getting a kick out of how YIDM agreed to show what his evoker was capable of against my wizard until he realized that I was capable of breaking a wizard 9-ways-to-Sunday through intelligent usage of his resources, which are perfectly RAW (if not particularly reasonable). A wizard could also find a lake of acid, use Shrink Item to turn 400 cubic feet of acid into a cloak to wear, Time Stop, and put it over your head. Then, when his time frame slows down, cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction, disabling a good number of your protections (likely including Timeless Body), as well as the Shrink Item effect, coating you in a lake's worth of acid. Or, he could utilize his Creation spells to make Black Lotus Extract and do the same as above. Having a familiar with a Rod of Cancellation would also ruin your character's day. Once you were hit, you'd lose your buffs, and then you'd go bye-bye. A wizard is also capable of turtling up in a way that would make it impossible for you to get to him. Prismatic Sphere, then Wall of Stone right around the inside to make a dome around him (Stone Shaping, if necessary), then casting Dimensional Anchor on the floor and the wall to keep you from teleporting in. All the while, I've Gated in a half-dozen great wyrm gold dragons (celestial ones, if necessary) with Ring Gates Sovereign Glue'd to their foreheads (exit-side out) and Rings of Spell-Turning. They'd be attacking you, Timeless Body or not, using judicious use of their cleric and sorcerer CL 19s to take down your buffs, while I'm casting spells at you that you will be hard-pressed to protect yourself from, once you found that your Timeless Body no longer works (due to the 3-dozen ways available to take it down). Tossing my familiar out there, with Antimagic Field cast on it, and several dragons attacking you, you'd be dead meat before you could say, "Oh my god! You killed Kenny! You ba-!" Alternately, I could use a few different tactics to surround you in Prismatic Spheres. Timeless Body would protect you from the damage, sure, but you wouldn't be able to get out, as the PS prevents spells and powers from passing through (thus, being Timeless Body'd, you'd be stuck in). And even Timeless Body wouldn't prevent you from being teleported out-of-plane, where you'd automagically lose (and yes, that was intentional). Barring evasion, if you just throw tornado blast after tornado blast...things will die. No wonder YIDM thinks psionics is overpowered. All he can think to do to a foe is to blast it into oblivion using evocation magic or psychokinesis. He's banned any *creative and specifically-allowed* uses of magic, RAW, so all that's left is blasting. Let me guess, your campaigns consist primarily of, 'I run up to the monster, provoking AoOs, and I whack it with my sword. Wash-Rinse-Repeat.' And for the casters, 'I blast it with a Fireball, Magic Missile, or Scorching Ray. Wash-Rinse-Repeat.' Sorry, YIDM, but if you can use your brain in conjunction with the list of core wizard-spells for a minute, you'd see that there are MUCH better options than simply whacking something until it goes down. If I were the psion in that challenge and wanted to take down the dragons? I'd use Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon to take each one down. You could take 2 down in one round, if your DC is decently high enough, and they roll anything but a 17 - 20. With the preparation-round, you could have a quarter-dozen Astral Constructs readied to keep the remaining dragon busy, then ready a couple of manifestations of Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon (one normal, one Quickened) to take them down. Then you use the second round to Cocoon the remaining dragon. All three dragons down, with no damage done. Then, when you're ready to face *me,* you Ectoplasmic Cocoon yourself, fly around using Psionic Fly, and Cocoon the myriad dragons I have out. Then, you go Ethereal, enter the Ring Gates through the dragon-side, and proceed to enwrap me with Ectoplasmic Cocoon (or use a number of other powers, such as Crystallize) to take me out, then, if I'm not dead or permanently nullified, you pull me out of the Ring Gate, and forcibly Plane Shift me to a random plane. Use some tactics, YIDM. At higher levels, direct-damage is *nothing.* Sure, the dragons could have made their saves, but had you taken a round to protect yourself, they would find reaching you, let alone hurting you, to be difficult. (That is, of course, assuming that whomever was playing the dragons use them as damage-dealers and don't utilize their spells properly. In that case, you're dead regardless.)
Psionx 11-28-06, 01:37 PM	Come on, guys, I'm running out of popcorn :( Seriously (or counter-seriously), it's just a game. Or possibly a game within a game. Meaning it's all much more fun than tuning into the conflict(s) in the Middle East, and ideally should remain so. Let's have less ire and more fun, eh? A challenge at 20th won't prove anything conclusively, but it'll provide evidence which YIDM's (carefully worked) bare builds do not in isolation. And anyway, it'll be entertaining for the rest of us. I mean come on, I paid a hundred electrum pieces for this ticket. Let the flames begin! :) Dude, did you buy at priceline? I had to pay 5000xp for my ticket... (reality revision (be careful what you wish for as a psion)) EDIT: Rusher is correct, just checked the srd, still nasty tho.
Rusher 11-28-06, 01:53 PM	Psionic Hole penalties do not count toward the # of points you can manifest. It just makes powers more costly. 99% sure on this. Granted it seems like an improved Psionic Hole feat, where they did count, would be really handy to have for the non-psions! take the psionic hole feat with a buff to eliminate your ability to manifest powers with a cost of 17 or higher, hell, he could max out his wisdom score and buff it really high to use psionic hole: starts with 10 reads the book for +5 wears the pendant for +6 takes +1 wisdom at some level 22 wisdom +6 modifier You can spend a max of 20 pp on a single power, you must now spend 6 more, so now you can at best hit him with a power costing 14 originally, you just lost usage of every 8th and 9th level power against him as well as the ability to augment to your full capacity. I
Nephlite 11-28-06, 02:08 PM	I Just curious here...how is that going to be reflected with the 'make-up' nature of the 3.5 XP system. Using psychic reformation back at level 9 & 12 to switch out a item creation feats (for which the items have already been made), the XP deficient won't even be seen at 20th. How is that suppose to work? (Just curious) It will be seen as you still use up Exp for both items and Psychic Reformation. What about psionic contingency (overchanneled temporal acceleration)? Is that valid? (for the beginning round) Just curious again...I can't have a psionic contingency (overchanneled temporal acceleration)? [already cast, ready to be triggered] Heck, if I were a psion, I'd have it on all the time. It's like a get-out-of-jail free card. You do realize you are scaring yourself? It leaves you shaken. If you cast a second one after you will be frightened (kinda funny really). Yea! Hooo-ray! And now "a" kineticist with a psicrown of the temporal juggler, activates the crowns timeless body power with his schism action and keeps doing that (over and over), WHILE attacking his enemies (or the red wizard) with his regular standard action until the enemy (or red wizard) is dead. Great comparison & no contest, kineticist wins. So glad we cleared that up... Can Schism activate items? So that's what you're up to...using exploits. Well...a timeless body psion wouldn't care (that much I know). :) Great way to prove balance. Exploit the system and then say "see! magic is just fine!" (as long as you use exploits) wow...dunno what to say about that... Wow, now you are trapped beneath thoudsands of rocks. Cave in rules states you are pretty defenseless. So you still lose. Just curious...what if you're DM uses the (often used) 20d6 cap on falling damage (dropped object or otherwise)? How is using loopholes and exploits for "justifying" magic's power proving that using psionics is balanced "as is" ??? Using 20d6 cap for falling objects is a nerf and not RAW. 20d6 applies to falling damage. Like what the object takes, not what it deals. People should reread DMG.
RadicalTaoist 11-28-06, 02:13 PM	YIDM, just so you know, you can't have Schism affecting you while Timeless - "harmful (and helpful) effects", remember? Lycan, you forgot Dream Travel on the Psion's side. Since it's not a plane, I don't think there's any way for an arcanist to escape the realm of dreams except via Wish. Shame about targetting the Will save, though.
Second 11-28-06, 02:13 PM	Maybe I missed a post somewhere in this rapidly growing thread, but the OP has yet to fully refute the arguments of endurance of the psion's PP, the efficiency of number of spells/powers used vs number of creatures killed/disabled, and the psion's limited power list vs the wizard's near unlimited spell knowledge. On the first point using the examples given in the first post, the psion is spending a signifigant chunk of this renewable resources on single instance of combat. Even using the bottom two examples of combat, once the obligatory 4 full combats of the day are up, you're at or near empty of PP and running entirely on your items. That is not a good position to be in at any point, given the possibility of additional combat and out-of-combat utility manifestations. Yes, I concede that the Kineticist is a superb engine of damage spewing power. However as stated in above posts, your enemy's HP are typically growing faster than your damage potential per power. You essentially have to blow through your resources and employ action gaining powers to remain an effective blaster at high levels. This is why blasters are considered by most to be subpar by then. This brings us to the second point, being how many powers/spells must one employ to kill/disable a number of creatures. It's been pointed out how a large number of resources must be employed to accomplish victory through pure damage, thus it could be said that "blasting" is an inefficient mode of offense. So let us compare save-or-suffer effects. Would it not be more efficient to lay down a Mind Fog (possibly quickened) followed by Weird which will either kill or at least stun a large number of creatures? You've expressed a willingness to compare such tactics. I'd like to see that. Lastly is the comparison of the number of powers/spells available to both classes at any time. The Psion knows 36 powers before Expanded Knowledge, the Wizard gains 40+Int mod spells for free before scribing. While the Wizard has to pay for additional spells known, that is infinitely better than spending feats to do the same thing with powers. A smart wizard wouldn't even have to spend an overly large chunk of his resources to learn a good selection of spells, but he certainly could have a virtual library scribed spells for any situation. The Psion is stuck with this 36 powers. Even with Psychic Reformation, that's XP the psion spends every time he wishes to reformat. It's a crutch and something that should be seldom used, similarly to using Limited Wish to emulate spells too often. Regardless, one class being very good at one facet of combat (damage, in this case) does not make one overpowered. One could even say that being good at many facets is far more overpowering. This is why the Cleric and Druid are top tier classes to most people: they excel in melee, buffing, healing, and even blasting all at the same time. If you're arguing that Kineticists are good blasters, than you're right and many would agree. The best blaster? Probably not. At that point you would have to start comparing it with Sorcerers, Warmages, Wu Jen, Wilders, and other classes who can bear the mantle of "Combat Artillery". Overpowered blaster? Certainly not. They sacrifice too much efficiency and versatility to maintain strong damage dealing capabilities. Plus, direct damage is far too simple and unimaginative. Good casters think with their heads, not with their spell slots.
NoldorForce 11-28-06, 02:21 PM	On the topic of falling damage: The 20d6 cap is for damage based on the distance from which an object falls. The text states that this is an addition to the (uncapped) quantity resulting from an object's weight.
Lycanthromancer 11-28-06, 02:33 PM	And using the knowledge that Noldorforce has pointed out, using my Telekinesis trick with naught but a Fly spell, Portable Hole, and a bunch of shrunken boulders can cause SO MUCH MORE DAMAGE. Rocks fall, everyone dies. In this case, literally. And you don't even need to hit AC for it. Just call out the command-word as the rocks fall past, and be directly above the spaces your foes are in. And I've taken up Second's motto to toss at YIDM, who seems to completely ignore it: "Good casters think with their heads, not with their spell-slots."
bgt 11-28-06, 03:21 PM	1. YIDM, please stop with all these "psionics are broken threads". If you want to beat on psionics and proclaim magic as the only way to play D&D, you can do so over at the magic boards, or better yet, with that freind John (or was it Jake? I know it started with a J) of yours. These boards are for us fans of psionics to discuss our favorite system, and all you're doing is clogging it up with flame-spawning drivel. Honestly, what you're doing is akin to trying to convince the pope that Chrisianity is a farce. 2. Read this thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=304933) All of it. If by the end of it, you feel the need to continue this senseless argument, I fell I may have to call you a hyper-uber-mega nerd to teh r0xX0r power, which is rather sad coming from me, as I've memorized White and Nerdy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkhMcyuYroA). Good day to you all.
crizhII 11-28-06, 03:40 PM	And using the knowledge that Noldorforce has pointed out, using my Telekinesis trick with naught but a Fly spell, Portable Hole, and a bunch of shrunken boulders can cause SO MUCH MORE DAMAGE. Rocks fall, everyone dies. In this case, literally. And you don't even need to hit AC for it. Just call out the command-word as the rocks fall past, and be directly above the spaces your foes are in. And I've taken up Second's motto to toss at YIDM, who seems to completely ignore it: "Good casters think with their heads, not with their spell-slots." I would prefer to see you use a better tactic than that. To be honest the whole shruken boulders thing is rubbish. It's clearly broken and in need of house ruling away. The best you can do is 'drop' a 25 ton lump of superdense metal (like osmium) on the target. As there are no mechanics for how you hit a target with 'dropped' objects the whole tactic is 'dubious' (LOL {private joke}) at best. A good fix, I think, is to modify the objects mass by the target creatures encumbrance mod. A 25t lump of metal is less than a GW Gold dragon's light load. Hell, it could pick up three and juggle them as easily as I could juggle three bowling balls, but RAW if it dropped one on its foot it would die instantly. By scaling (ha) the mass of the object relative to the creature it strikes this would result in some bruising and a bit of a limp instead of instant death from massive damage, severed limbs and thousands of gallons of comedy blood spraying everywhere. That's a discussion for elsewhere though. It's clearly abusive and unrealistic, I'd prefer to see tactics one could really use. Ectoplasmic Cocoon is good, although I'd be worried about reliably beating it's save, +22 is a pretty decent reflex save before it buffs itself...
Psionx 11-28-06, 03:57 PM	Win initiative Rod of Maximize use on timestop 5 delayed blast fireballs (Maxd normally) 5 quickened (with rods of quicken) delayed blast fireballs (Maxd normally) There is NO way that a psion will survive that even if it manifests an evade burst with contingencied evade burst 8 of the blasts still deal at least half damage 60*8=480 20*4=80+vigor=180+con mod +5=280 + fire res 310 Max dealt is 1.2*10^3 BTW: Elan's ability won't even help as this isn't 1 source of damage "When som1 busts out scientific notation, you know its on" EDIT:crizhII, are these tactics acceptable, It's basically the same as seeing 10 little beads on the ground go off simultaneously. EDIT: I saw this earlier on this thread
TheDarkLord 11-28-06, 04:04 PM	"When som1 busts out scientific notation, you know its on" :surrender Awesome! :thumbsup:
crizhII 11-28-06, 04:19 PM	Win initiative Rod of Maximize use on timestop 5 delayed blast fireballs (Maxd normally) 5 quickened (with rods of quicken) delayed blast fireballs (Maxd normally) There is NO way that a psion will survive that even if it manifests an evade burst with contingencied evade burst 8 of the blasts still deal at least half damage 60*8=480 20*4=80+vigor=180+con mod +5=280 + fire res 310 Max dealt is 1.2*10^3 BTW: Elan's ability won't even help as this isn't 1 source of damage "When som1 busts out scientific notation, you know its on" EDIT:crizhII, are these tactics acceptable, It's basically the same as seeing 10 little beads on the ground go off simultaneously. EDIT: I saw this earlier on this thread If he's allowed contingency whats wrong with D.Door. Or Temporal Acceleration and just walking out of the AoE. Or......
carnivore 11-28-06, 04:26 PM	i have been following this thread and the previous one...with some interest. although i do feel that Psions are Balanced..... this has shown up a tactic that works quite well for many games and gaming systems: have a Big .... BIG first shot.....that way they dont shoot back. this is not a new tactic, but the Psion makes it work very well...in CORE/XPH only games. this does not make the Psion Unbalanced..... simply easy to use for this tactic. the main place where this shines is an ARENA setting where the encounter frequency is known.......even though Your Immortal DM has said that this is not that type of comparison....the circumstances are the same...: notice: when you normally go adventuring....you manifest your long-term Buffs early when you start out in the morning........and a Kineticist should have Dispelling buffer up every day(and it should be in his powers known) after your early long term buffs.......(60+-100+PP), then you can see what you will have for 3-4 encounters.......but for the sake of argument..try this: scene:entering BBEGs cave fortress(you have already manifested Long term buffs)......... normally you would do some short term buffing before you go in(Intelligence powers,Precog-offinsive,etc....) the amount you have remaining for the encounter is reduced further....if you do not buff...it is easy to miss-lead the Psion into unloading lots of PP wastefully.....: exa:....you see a Balor and 3 Vrocks in a room guarding what apears to be a throne.....what do you do....if they see you, they imeadiately attack.....with the Tactics that Your Immortal DM has given.....both wiz and Psion might start blasting......but at the end of the encounter if you discovered that they where only Orcs with Hats of Disguise...what do you do ....especially when the Real Demons hear the noise and summon some help and send them in next, also alerting the BBEG that he has Visitors the problem remains....the Psion has little or No reserves left but the Wizard has a Variety of lower level spells still at his disposal the Balancing factor is the low PP supply of the Psion compared to the Free scaling spells of the Wiz/Sor.....the psion can unload quickly...but that is not always the answer......for Example: if the Wiz cast Extended Summon Monster XI...and got a Leonal.....then summoned several lower level creatures...the long term damage that they can do is very substantial....in addition to other things they can help with(advice,curing,etc...) just something to think about :D
Psionx 11-28-06, 04:29 PM	Too true, in that case use that 1 unspent charge of the quicken rod on a quickened mdj b4 going nova with the fireballs, that will take care of any and all buffs, cept that buffer buff. I would just love to quickened MDJ round 1 follow up with a maxd energy drain, that will take care of any items he has to use restoration as well as the restoration power itself unless he's an egoist which he's not so he doesn't, finally rinse and repeat the energy drain until he dies. This approach really worries me as a psion: inf pp mean nothing when you don't have the manifester level to abuse them.
crizhII 11-28-06, 04:50 PM	Too true, in that case use that 1 unspent charge of the quicken rod on a quickened mdj b4 going nova with the fireballs, that will take care of any and all buffs, cept that buffer buff. I would just love to quickened MDJ round 1 follow up with a maxd energy drain, that will take care of any items he has to use restoration as well as the restoration power itself unless he's an egoist which he's not so he doesn't, finally rinse and repeat the energy drain until he dies. This approach really worries me as a psion: inf pp mean nothing when you don't have the manifester level to abuse them. Would MDJ not be just as likely to trigger a well crafted Contingency? What really worries me from either perspective, Mage or Psion, is Telekinetic Thrust. Lyc. is keen on massive boulders but I don't think that's necessary. Collossal Javelins would smart. Make them from Adamantine, enchant them, make them Holy/Unholy, give them Mage/Psibane. Shoot 15 of them at one target as a touch attack. Ouch. Make a headband that lets you do that every round as a swift action. Mega Ouch! To be fair Timeless Body+Schism is a pain but if you can avoid significant damage there's only so long someone can Manifest Timeless Body before they run out of Power Points and then they're toast.
Psionx 11-28-06, 06:22 PM	Would MDJ not be just as likely to trigger a well crafted Contingency? What really worries me from either perspective, Mage or Psion, is Telekinetic Thrust. Lyc. is keen on massive boulders but I don't think that's necessary. Collossal Javelins would smart. Make them from Adamantine, enchant them, make them Holy/Unholy, give them Mage/Psibane. Shoot 15 of them at one target as a touch attack. Ouch. Make a headband that lets you do that every round as a swift action. Mega Ouch! To be fair Timeless Body+Schism is a pain but if you can avoid significant damage there's only so long someone can Manifest Timeless Body before they run out of Power Points and then they're toast. 1 contingency at a time max, so if its geared against mdj, then its not going to stop the fireballs, therefore, hit em with one or the other, fireballs if its against the mdj, drain em if it's not. Either way, this battles all in the initiative. EDIT: The temporal acceleration is problematic, does it get negated by mdj if it triggers against mdj? EDIT: What worries me is time hop, can you time hop someones brain or pieces of a person like their head?
crizhII 11-28-06, 06:42 PM	EDIT: What worries me is time hop, can you time hop someones brain or pieces of a person like their head? I'm sure someone's been timehopping bits of my brain....
Nephlite 11-28-06, 07:09 PM	To be fair Timeless Body+Schism is a pain but if you can avoid significant damage there's only so long someone can Manifest Timeless Body before they run out of Power Points and then they're toast. Timeless body turns off Schism. Thus you have to remainfest Schism the next round.
carnivore 11-28-06, 07:34 PM	The purpose comparison is to once again, attempt to show how psionics are overpowered with a realistic model. Note: since I cannot comment on the game-balance of various supplements, this is restricted to CORE only. ok.....lets make it realistic......... GOUDA Gouda: Male elan psion (kineticist) 20; ECL 20; Medium size aberration; HD 20d4+40; hp 92; Init +3; Spd 30 ft; AC 31 (touch 16, flat-footed 28); Atk +15 melee (1d6, quarterstaff) or +16 ranged touch (by power); SQ: Elan traits, psicrystal; SR 20;AL N; SV Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +16; Str 12, Dex 12[16], Con 12[14], Int 28[34], Wis 12, Cha 6. Feats: Alertness, Delay Power, Empower Power, Expanded Knowledge (astral construct), Expanded Knowledge (metamorphosis), Expanded Knowledge (mass ectoplasmic cocoon), Expanded Knowledge (schism), Expanded Knowledge (psionic teleport), Overchannel, Psicrystal Containment, Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Meditation, Talented. Special Qualities: Elan Traits: aberration type, naturally psionic, resistance (Su), resilience (Su), repletion (Su); Psicrystal (hero): construct type, Alertness, improved evasion, personality, self-propulsion, share powers, sighted, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, telepathic speech, flight, power resistance, sight link, channel power. Psion (Kineticist) Powers per Day (465 power points; base DC = 22 + power level; Manifester level 20th.): Psion (Kineticist) Powers Known: 1st—astral construct*, defensive precognition, crystal shard, energy ray, inertial armor, force screen, vigor; 2nd—ego whip, energy missile, energy stun; 3rd—body adjustment, dispel psionics, solicit psicrystal, touchsight; 4th—control body, energy adaptation, energy ball, intellect fortress, metamorphosis*, psychic reformation, schism*; 5th—energy current, fiery discorporation, psionic teleport*, power resistance, shatter mind blank; 6th—psionic disintegrate, psionic contingency, temporal acceleration; 7th—decerebrate, mass ectoplasmic cocoon*, personal mind blank, reddopsi; 8th—bend reality, iron body, recall death; 9th—microcosm, tornado blast, timeless body. Protective buffs: psionic contingency (temporal acceleration; 23 power points; if physically, psionically, or magically attacked); inertial armor (23 power points), personal mind blank (13 power points). Possessions: tome of clear thought +5 (already read), psicrown of fiery ruin, +1 heavy fortification invulnerability mithril chain shirt, crystal mask of insightful detection (with gem of seeing mounted in eye socket with sovereign glue), skin of the hero, scarlet and blue ioun stone (upgraded to +6 Int), cloak of etherealness, scarab of protection, gloves of dexterity +4, ring of blinking, ring of evasion, winged boots, pink ioun stone (+2 Con), necklace of adaptation (not worn), gloves of object reading (not worn), handy haversack, sovereign glue, (5) tattoos of vigor (ML 20), 20-30k in power stones, mwk quarterstaff. Good defensive buffs to manifest: force screen (+4 to +9 shield bonus), defensive precognition (+2 to +9 insight bonus to AC/saves), vigor (5 to 115 temp hit points), intellect fortress (immediate action, half damage from AoE), energy adaptation (immediate action, all energy resistances 30), ring of blinking (various effects; 50% miss chance), iron body (DR 15/adamantine; various effects) if you use the minimum buffs each day=Protective buffs: psionic contingency (temporal acceleration; 23 power points; if physically, psionically, or magically attacked); inertial armor (23 power points), personal mind blank (13 power points). 58PP as follows: 11pp contingency...for: 11pp temporal acceleration(1 round) 23pp inertial armor(+15 armor) 13pp mind blank 465pp - 58pp = 407pp for the rest of the day now if you do use some of your buffs for a "Realistic" encounter........try this: assuming entering lair......so: 23pp Vigor(115hit points) 22pp Def precog(+8 insight to AC and all saves) 13pp Touchsight(100' radius) 58pp spent...so 349pp left now you are ready for most any encounter....and you can win almost(will explain) any also.....but it is at a great cost. if you dont do these buffs....ambushes will be a very bad thing for you: exa: you and your party are walking down a large corridor(30 wide x 40' high going off into the darkness),......suddenly(roll spot or listen checks(must beat DC35 for both(this is a special ambush site prepared to surprise most parties) 8 creatures jump on your party from thier hiding places, starting grapple checks (2 per party member)(creatures are Chokers(disguised to look like Drow warriors))......unbeknownst to the party there are several other creatures hiding (invisibly) observing this, waiting to see the outcome(5 other creatures,Drow ambush party(11th-13th lvl)....they will act intelligently, i will remain hidden(to escape) to report if things go badly using the tactics given earlier........Direct damage will have a very unfavorable effect(any Power or spell with a to hit roll risks injury to party members, as do all area effects) 4 members(20th lvl) should have very little problem with this encounter.....but not with the type of tactics listed the Psion can deal a large amount of damage quickly,......but with long encounters with multiple targets.....he can quickly run out of PP especially if he has to Buff after each......Gouda would have to manifest Psi Contingincy(Temporal Acceleration) after each to keep up his buffer Round yes a Psion has ultimate control of how he uses his power...but it is at a cost.....all power has a cost.....some DMs do not know how to handle the situations that this can bring.....the problem is not with the Psion class, but with the DM :D
Your Immortal DM 11-29-06, 12:36 AM	You know, if *I* was going to be going up against 3 CR 27s and a level 20 kineticist, I think I'd make judicious use of Shrink Item, along with some 67,200 pound granite boulders (1 cubic foot of granite weighs 168 pounds, and 67,200 pounds is the maximum that a level 20 casting can shrink). With a single casting of Telekinesis (once again at level 20) and some rather heavy boxes of shrunken boulders, I've calculated that I can dole out 1,008,000d6 points of damage, divided up to 15 ways. Telekinetically thrust the boxes - each thrust knocks out 25,200,000 pounds of boulders, shrunken down to a mere 375 lbs. Keep in mind, I could easily port in numerous boxes of these with a Gate spell positioned under a huge pile, and could blow virtually my entire arsenal of 5th-level-plus spells on nothing but Telekinesis and Quickened Telekinesis (though I'm thinking of just making a wand). So let me get this strait...in order for you to ‘prove’ that psionics aren’t broken, you’re comparing it to game rule exploits/loopholes that 95% of DMs wouldn’t allow anyway? (making your claim largely invalid; however correct by RAW) How is using exploits and loopholes that DMs (and RPGA DMs) won’t allow prove that psionics are balanced? Wouldn’t it be smarter to compare it to more legitimate tactics? Or is that they only way you force magic to compete? Why not compare legitimate magic-based tactics (that DMs will allow) to legitimate psionic-based tactics? That seems like the most “reasonable” way to compare two things. (that's just me) So, YIDM, given that I can do an average of 4,032,000 points of damage on a single casting (and can do 2 castings per round, minimum), do you still want to do this? Or is psionics still broken compared to magic? It seems the only way you can compare with psionics, that you’ve offered thus far, is to exploit the system to the point of un-playability (unless you consider 1,008,00d6 playable) to somehow “show” that psionics are balanced cause it can’t break the game as easily as that? How does that make any sense whatsoever??? (really bad move) You can't do that with the XPHB. CPsi, yes, but not the XPHB. The best they'll manage to do is recharge their pp batteries, or manage to get a few hours' blasting for a dozen or so pp. My previous combo can be done over and over and over again, ALL DAY LONG. Shrink Item can be Permanencied, which means that all of those thousands of tons of rock can be shrunk and reused, all for a few measly XP and a few minutes' thought. You may be the first DM/player I ever heard of thought that was actually usable in game. (or are you just teasing us with this ‘theoredical’ use?) I’d love to hear from everyone else who allows this? (real world, in game, use it as much as you want, for all 100,000+ damage; repeatedly). Please…speak up, I’d love to hear if your DM actually allows this. If so, I’d also love to hear how he keeps things balanced (or what his definition of balance is). :cool: YIDM, the main problem with timeless body is that it lasts 1 round (and can't be used on his turn) Sure it can, it’s called schism and a psicrown of the temporal juggler (or the Overchannel feat and timeless body). You’re schism brain just goes right after timeless body ends, and restarts the cycle. I feel I should take the time to explain a few conclusions presented here without backing that came from psionics supports and are fairly well accepted around here. 1. Evocation is among the weakest schools of magic and 2. Direct Damage is not a very good tactic for high level characters This stems from the fact that it is among the least versatile and most replaceable. It has been my experience that players who know what they are doing with specialist wizards most frequently choose evocation as one of their banned schools. Interesting “conclusion” there, I know a lot of people that would argue with that. (including some designers) [especially so at the mid to mid-high levels]. Last I heard from the game designers, they attempted to “balance” the schools in 3.5 so they were all powerful schools; i.e. moved power words to enchantment, upped meteor swarm damage, changed durations of various spells, etc. etc. Damage generally goes up by d6 per level (if you are a mage) or d6 per 1 or 2 power points (if you manifest). But your opponents may be getting d8, d10, or higher plus bonuses for hit points each level. When a mage goes from 7th to 8th level the extra d6 (3.5 damage points) on his fireball does not keep pace with the increased hit points of his average foe; he actually needs more fireballs at 8th level to get the same job done. Yeah...and repeated uses of evocation kill an opponent. So is the fighter/barbarian a useless class cause all he does is inflict damage (with the occasional disarm, trip, or sunder)? That’s essentially what you’re saying: “Damage is useless” Don’t think the WotC designers would agree with you. (who knows, maybe they would?) So wait...now I'm a "coward" for not doing something that everyone agrees is a pointless exercise in futility (I can't win! /cry). 1. You are a coward for refusing to accept a reasonable challenge to the closest thing anyone has proposed to an empirical test of your assertion. The only reason for not accepting Lyc's challenge is that you are either a coward or a Troll. I don’t even know what to say to that rudeness. Wow. Perhaps you don’t have anything better to say so you must spew venom at me? Even Lyc. Agreed it’d be a pointless exercise and wouldn’t prove anything. Alas, we haven’t even come to the terms to “fight it out yet” so, I couldn’t post if I wanted to. You should really read more crizhII (just a suggestion) Issues of "over-poweredness" stem from a player or a DM who exploits the system to try and be "better" or "break the system." As a DM, it's your job to look at such problems and ask yourself, "Do I nerf the powers, change the rules, or talk to the player?" And chances are, the best way to handle any problem in any role-playing game is to talk to the player. They'll either care about your game and everyone else's fun, or care about themselves and a false sense of gaining more fun. My point? Yes, you can exploit the game and break most classes like wizo-paradox mentioned for your own benefit and false feeling of invulnerability. Or, you can choose to play within reason; in which case fun will come to all at the gaming table. Incorrect. If the game is set up properly, then no “talks/truces” are required. A player or DM can utilize any tactics they want, and each tactic has value and no one tactic / class choice / combination is vastly superior in most circumstances as another choice. That is balance. Equal choices, benefits and tradeoffs for each within a defined game-balanced boundary. Example, shrink item abuse; get WotC to limit it in some fashion (maximum die cap based on weight, whatever balances it, and brings it in line with other 2nd level spells). Remove abuse potential all together rather than having to talk (or make a truce) with said player. This is the “better” choice IMO. If it's pure hack and slash and there's no actual role-playing and no use of any abilities other than blasting. . then I'd pick a kineticist over the evoker any day (and a sorcerer over either!) However, if it's a real campaign with good guys and bad guys and a living world and skill checks and time to rest and plots and intrigue. . then that changes everything, because the concept of comparing damage done no longer makes a bit of sense. It never really did. What’s wrong with my evoker build or my kineticist build in an actual game? (go check the first post) Because I didn't choose your defintions of what's the 'best' opposition schools makes my choices invalid? (faulty logic there buddy) They both can do a variety of things in a variety of situations. I even gave the kineticist bend reality to do whatever the DM allows for a “8th level effect” and I gave the evoker limited wish for whatever the DM allows for a “7th level effect”. Sadly, the kineticist can do just about anything my evoker can do, and can do it better, much better actually. (and with much more ease of use; no prepping for example) And the two classes are too dissimilar in other ways (with the evoker having a comparatively massive number of spells available with preparation for example) to even begin that sort of comparison. It was suggested that a specialist wizard was the most similar to a psion, who by others definition was a specialist. I just went on to show how the psionic specialist was superior to the magic specialist. I guess many view them as quite similar (as I do). The fact that a DM can change the balance between Psions and Wizards just by changing the pace of the game completely and utterly invalidates any attempt to compare them based on power level, because their power levels change based on what -I- do in my campaign. Sadly this is untrue. “We” all play the game differently. It should be balanced regardless of who DMs or how the game is played. (provided we’re all using the same core rules as a base for balance) I'm really getting a kick out of how YIDM agreed to show what his evoker was capable of against my wizard until he realized that I was capable of breaking a wizard 9-ways-to-Sunday through intelligent usage of his resources, which are perfectly RAW (if not particularly reasonable).That so? Glad you’re enjoying yourself. It appears to me you’re just sore cause you CAN’T prove it without resorting to game exploits. Perhaps I’m just misinterpreting your lofty attitude, but that’s how I see it. A wizard could also find a lake of acid, use Shrink Item to turn 400 cubic feet of acid into a cloak to wear, Time Stop, and put it over your head. Then, when his time frame slows down, cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction, disabling a good number of your protections (likely including Timeless Body), as well as the Shrink Item effect, coating you in a lake's worth of acid. You really seem to have a thing for shrink item. Does you’re DM actually allow that? I’m still curious to hear of DMs that allow such exploits (as an example, how do they keep the game balanced at all?). Or does everyone routinely use 100,000+ hp damaging shrunken items? (just curious) Perhaps, just maybe, a more legitimate comparison could be put forth (without exploits), and then I might take you a bit more seriously. All the while, I've Gated in a half-dozen great wyrm gold dragons (celestial ones, if necessary) with Ring Gates Sovereign Glue'd to their foreheads and Rings of Spell-Turning, exit-side out. Wow...not even sure what to make of this statement. Not supported in the rules...seems kinda like you just “made it up” or something… They'd be attacking you, Timeless Body or not, using judicious use of their cleric and sorcerer CL 19s to take down your buffs, while I'm casting spells at you that you will be hard-pressed to protect yourself from, once you found that your Timeless Body no longer works (due to the 3-dozen ways available to take it down). If it wasn’t for the fact that my psicrystal could/would be teleporting “us” around in-between my 1 round timeless body manifestations (and the kineticist focusing on the wizard), and blowing them “all” up in various temporal acceleration rounds (with various delayed powers), I might be worried. Sadly, that threat doesn’t even phase me… Sorry, YIDM, but if you can use your brain in conjunction with the list of core wizard-spells for a minute, you'd see that there are MUCH better options than simply whacking something until it goes down. Yes, I do realize such, but that doesn’t mean that Evocation spells used for “damaging spells” is obsolete or weak. It shouldn’t be any more obsolete than psychokinesis is for “damaging powers”. Apparently you’ve come to the conclusion that it is…interesting. Let me guess, your campaigns consist primarily of, 'I run up to the monster, provoking AoOs, and I whack it with my sword. Wash-Rinse-Repeat.' And for the casters, 'I blast it with a Fireball, Magic Missile, or Scorching Ray. Wash-Rinse-Repeat.' Actually no…I can get you in touch with some of my players if you wish. The combats are quite complicated & involved (nor is it a hack-and-slash style campaign). I recently ran the (3) Eberron modules back-to-back (plus the mini-one in the main Campaign setting). Very good modules all told. ;) Then, when you're ready to face *me,* you Ectoplasmic Cocoon yourself, fly around using Psionic Fly, and Cocoon the myriad dragons I have out. Then, you go Ethereal, enter the Ring Gates through the dragon-side, and proceed to enwrap me with Ectoplasmic Cocoon (or use a number of other powers, such as Crystallize) to take me out, then, if I'm not dead or permanently nullified, you pull me out of the Ring Gate, and forcibly Plane Shift me to a random plane. Use some tactics, YIDM. At higher levels, direct-damage is *nothing.* Sure, the dragons could have made their saves, but had you taken a round to protect yourself, they would find reaching you, let alone hurting you, to be difficult. (That is, of course, assuming that whomever was playing the dragons use them as damage-dealers and don't utilize their spells properly. In that case, you're dead regardless.) I’ll give you props here. Rather than just spewing venom and bashing on me - you explained your point, and showed a counter point. (against yourself) Maybe we’re getting somewhere after all? (this kinda rejuvenates me! there is hope!) I never said damage was the end all be all…but its certainly more useful that some have suggested. It has its place and anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know the game IMO. BTW…that place for "damage" is also not at the bottom of the list, nor is it at the top of the list, but it is certainly useful. Can Schism activate items? Actually it can. Any purely mental action a schism brain can do. Psicrowns are command “thought” activated, hence a schism brain can activate a psicrown of the temporal juggler to be in timeless body form as long as a fight lasts. Meanwhile the psion is blasting or tossing save-or-suffer effects with its psicrystal concentrating on energy current or teleporting both manifester and psicrystal around via an item. Note: all that is required is to wait till timeless body ends, and the schism power to resume functioning, then the cycle starts again, and again, and again. (nice huh?) Wow, now you are trapped beneath thoudsands of rocks. Cave in rules states you are pretty defenseless. So you still lose. Not really, the kineticist will just teleport out, thanks… Using 20d6 cap for falling objects is a nerf and not RAW. 20d6 applies to falling damage. Like what the object takes, not what it deals. People should reread DMG. I know that, hence why I said the (often used) statement. I can’t help it that exploit allows a 2nd level spell to do 100,000+ damage. I’d love to hear from a DM that would allow that trick (actually in play). If exploits are a cowards way out to try and prove a point. If that’s all you got, then that’s pretty sad IMO. Now…if your DM DOES seriously allow such exploits in play – then I have NO problem with psionics as written (and pity the poor DM that has to deal with wizard’s doing 100,000+ damage). However, if these things are NOT in use and in play, then I DO have a problem with calling psionics “balanced with core”. YIDM, just so you know, you can't have Schism affecting you while Timeless - "harmful (and helpful) effects", remember? See above. You’re schism brain activates the psicrown again, or manifests timeless body again AFTER the 1 round wears off. Once timeless body ends, the schism power resumes functioning, then starts the cycle over again, and again…and again. On the topic of falling damage: The 20d6 cap is for damage based on the distance from which an object falls. The text states that this is an addition to the (uncapped) quantity resulting from an object's weight.Yes for the millionth time. I stated that the first time. It’s an often used “houserule” to remove the 100,000+ damage exploit. As I said, unless you see DMs routinely allowing the shrink item 100,000+ plus combo why are we even considering it as a valid tactic when it won’t ever be seen in play? Seriously… Wouldn’t comparing tactics that would actually see the game table be more productive than theoredical exploits that never get seen? I would have thought that would go without saying? (I guess not) Or do you think it’s a good idea to base "game balance" on exploited rules & loopholes? Please, feel free to answer, I’d love to hear the response to this one… :cool: (I wonder what a lawyer might say about this) And using the knowledge that Noldorforce has pointed out, using my Telekinesis trick with naught but a Fly spell, Portable Hole, and a bunch of shrunken boulders can cause SO MUCH MORE DAMAGE. Rocks fall, everyone dies. In this case, literally. And you don't even need to hit AC for it. Just call out the command-word as the rocks fall past, and be directly above the spaces your foes are in. And I've taken up Second's motto to toss at YIDM, who seems to completely ignore it: "Good casters think with their heads, not with their spell-slots." And back to spewing venom with faulty logic. Comparing psionics power to a broken rules exploit. How sad. :( I would prefer to see you use a better tactic than that. To be honest the whole shruken boulders thing is rubbish. It's clearly broken and in need of house ruling away. The best you can do is 'drop' a 25 ton lump of superdense metal (like osmium) on the target. As there are no mechanics for how you hit a target with 'dropped' objects the whole tactic is 'dubious' (LOL {private joke}) at best. Wow, even the posters on this thread who hate me can see how that’s a bad way to start an analysis of game balance. Win initiative Rod of Maximize use on timestop 5 delayed blast fireballs (Maxd normally) 5 quickened (with rods of quicken) delayed blast fireballs (Maxd normally) There is NO way that a psion will survive that even if it manifests an evade burst with contingencied evade burst 8 of the blasts still deal at least half damage 60*8=480 20*4=80+vigor=180+con mod +5=280 + fire res 310 Max dealt is 1.2*10^3 BTW: Elan's ability won't even help as this isn't 1 source of damage "When som1 busts out scientific notation, you know its on" My psionic contingency (temporal acceleration) triggers. I keep remanifesting temporal acceleration after temporal acceleration, using delayed powers in the middle, when I’ve layered half a dozen effects; I turn on schism and timeless body and laugh (at your useless explosion), then when its all over, my delayed powers attack back (and the wizard explodes / dies; by any number of effects that ‘go off’). Note: you know you can chain-link temporal accelerations together to form one really long one? Put in a few delayed power attacks, and they don’t even get a round to fight back. Sad, but true. Too true, in that case use that 1 unspent charge of the quicken rod on a quickened mdj b4 going nova with the fireballs, that will take care of any and all buffs, cept that buffer buff. I would just love to quickened MDJ round 1 follow up with a maxd energy drain, that will take care of any items he has to use restoration as well as the restoration power itself unless he's an egoist which he's not so he doesn't, finally rinse and repeat the energy drain until he dies. This approach really worries me as a psion: inf pp mean nothing when you don't have the manifester level to abuse them. This assumes you actually get an attack off. With a psionic contingency (temporal acceleration) that’s just not going to happen. Would MDJ not be just as likely to trigger a well crafted Contingency?Bingo, you’ve discovered the answer to the evokers slim ”chance” at defeating the kineticist (or any psion for that matter). Timeless body turns off Schism. Thus you have to remainfest Schism the next round. Correction you are ‘invulnerable’ to the schism effect, isn’t dispelled. 1 round later you are no longer ‘invulnerable’ and the schism resumes functioning. If it had meant “dispelled” the text would have said so. Try again. assuming entering lair......so: 23pp Vigor(115hit points) 22pp Def precog(+8 insight to AC and all saves) 13pp Touchsight(100' radius) 58pp spent...so 349pp left now you are ready for most any encounter....and you can win almost(will explain) any also.....but it is at a great cost. if you dont do these buffs....ambushes will be a very bad thing for you: Really depends on what you “expect” to be handling in an encounter. I can tell you a wizard has access to none of the above. No extra temporary hit points to survive any surprise rounds, no 8 point insight bonus to saves and AC against traps and the like, no touchsight to defeat illusions and hidden (not invisible) foes – so…which would you rather play? Your Immortal DM
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 01:07 AM	Oddly enough if you swap magic and psionics..... [Quasi Quote]So let me get this strait...in order for you to ‘prove’ that Psionics is broken, you’re comparing using game rule exploits/loopholes that 95% of DMs wouldn’t allow anyway? (Making your claim largely invalid; however correct by RAW) How is using exploits and loopholes that DMs (and RPGA DMs) won’t allow proving that Magic is more balanced? Wouldn’t it be smarter to compare it to more legitimate tactics? Or is that they only way you force Psionics to compete? Why not compare legitimate Psionic-based tactics (that DMs will allow) to legitimate Magic-based tactics? That seems like the most “reasonable” way to compare two things. (That’s just me)[/quasi Quote] Here is the largest problem I have with the most recent group of people to hop on the boards with these threads The Majority of these people enter the boards with the firm belief that psionics is overpowered, period. Similar to some people’s issues with Faerun Vs Eberron or Planescape Vs Spelljammer, they color all their posts and interpretations to fit their notions. Failing to objectively look at both systems and look for equality. ... On that note, many of these people equate equality with same if psionics can do something no one else can then they are broken, regardless of the fact that wizards can do things psions can't, Clerics can do things wizards can't, and even sorcerers can do things wizards can't. It's give and take. Benefit X is counterbalanced by Penalty Y to Produce Power level Z. Z(psion) and Z(Wizard) are two different Variables but in a balanced system Z(Class A) is ~= to Z(Class B) not the same but within a few metaphorical points. ... What’s good for the Gander is good for the Goose, Often times people come on to the boards and say look at the crazy things I can do with psionics, however when pointed toward even a core wizards craziness, respond with "that wouldn't happen in a real game" or "That’s cheating" or "I house rule that" Ignoring the fact that by making these claims they forfeit their claims that psionics is broken by destroying any credibility that they might have. ... Often Times people with little understanding of the rules hop on and go nuts because they don't see the limiting rules, and then refuse to acknowledge this. ... Another odd thing is many posters will post something, and then claim that they have proved something, when in reality all that they have done is simply presented a hypothesis and maybe (if one is lucky) some data, although often times is "x can do this so its broken" with little explanation. ... Calls to authority are common, “well I’ve played dnd since 1970 so my opinion on a system is more valid than yours”, regardless of the fact that in all likelihood ... both have had the system since the beginning ... and the pro psionic player has actual more game experience using the system than someone who thinks its inherently broken ... Another common mistake is the idea that "Core" is somehow balanced in an of itself, horribly not true. A simple look at a core fighter versus a core cleric or druid shows that the base system is not balanced in any form without intense house ruling. ... And the most single aggravating thing that occurs time and time again is that posters from either side will skim through 10 posts grab one quote out of context, or even in context and blow it out of proportion ignoring large quantities of valid counterpoints. Sadly this occurs more often with the antipsi crowd than the psi crowd, mainly because the antipsi group consists of 2-3 people at most which leads to one post followed by 5-15 rebuttals Seriously, If anyone expects this to go anywhere we need a heavily moderated thread where arguments are concise and to the point rather than this nonsense of cramming dozens of fallacious arguments, counterpoints, examples, personal snipes, and other such falderal. Once Christmas Break comes along and I can don't have what little time not earning money taken up by class I can and will have the time to deal with such a thread if anyone wants to intelligently debate such topics. Of course it would be helpful if a Moderator could delete posts that deviate from an agreed upon format or stray of topic into personal attack so that the thread looks like a text version of a formal debate rather than two dozen moneys yelling at each other in a cage.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 01:48 AM	YIDM: My psionic contingency (temporal acceleration) triggers. I keep remanifesting temporal acceleration after temporal acceleration, using delayed powers in the middle, when I’ve layered half a dozen effects; I turn on schism and timeless body and laugh (at your useless explosion), then when its all over, my delayed powers attack back (and the wizard explodes / dies; by any number of effects that ‘go off’). YIDM again: Bingo, you’ve discovered the answer[Referring to a 'carefully worded contingency' to deal with an MDJ] to the evokers slim ”chance” at defeating the kineticist (or any psion for that matter). Contingency: You can use only one psionic contingency companion power at a time; if a second is manifested, the first one (if still active) is dismissed. So, out of curiosity, which of these two contingencies are you going to use? Because, y'know, you can use one of 'em. Edit: To Lokiyn - I realize I just committed one of those annoyances you just mentioned, but I couldn't help it. Please forgive me.
Psionx 11-29-06, 01:52 AM	dude, i'm pretty sure mdj hits everything including your contingency b4 it activates, therefore, unless your contingency attempts to stop my MDJ you will get hit by one or the other. I can't be certain of this, but if I am incorrect, so are you and heres why While your temporal acceleration is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and powers, best you can do at 20th is a 3 turn temporal acceleration, and don't forget that you can't use more than 1 metapsionic feat due to psionic focus. So, at best you can deal 18d6+18 and not maximize them (can't even do that if you don't take psionic meditation), btw: only area and personal which eliminates alot, in addition, you just burned thru lets see 3*20=60 3 delayed blast area powers Halfway post edit: You can't even do that! Delay Power [Metapsionic] You can manifest powers that go off up to 5 rounds later. Benefit To use this feat, you must expend your psionic focus. You can manifest a power as a delayed power. A delayed power doesn’t activate immediately. When you manifest the power, you choose one of three trigger mechanisms: (1) The power activates when you take a standard action to activate it; (2) It activates when a creature enters the area that the power will affect (only powers that affect areas can use this trigger condition); or (3) It activates on your turn after 5 rounds pass. If you choose one of the first two triggers and the conditions are not met within 5 rounds, the power activates automatically on the fifth round. Only area and personal powers can be delayed. Any decisions you would make about the delayed power, including attack rolls, designating targets, or determining or shaping an area, are decided when the power is manifested. Any effects resolved by those affected by the power, including saving throws, are decided when the delay period ends. A delayed power can be dispelled normally during the delay, and can be detected normally in the area or on the target by the use of powers that can detect psionic effects. Using this feat increases the power point cost of the power by 2. The power’s total cost cannot exceed your manifester level. 1> You can activate 1 of them to do 18d6+18 on your turn after you are shaken because otherwise I'm "invulnerable" to it's damage. 2> I'm already in the area when you put it up during your acceleration so it goes off 3> 5 rounds later, and you spent only 3, giving me plenty of time to get out of the way and laugh back. As well as laugh at how many power points you just blew on trying to kill me. This is interesting because the description above it says up to 5 rounds, however RAW says 5 rounds later. Nice and well done. You've certainly managed to best yourself. Oh and I now cast MDJ again (you don't have 10 minutes in temporal accel to set up another 1) and hit you with the aforementioned level drain. EDIT: You don't get a save EDIT: srry lokiyn bout that, but he really needs to read what he's doing EDIT: Must... say... this... when the durations convert back to real time if thats what you mean by accel after accel, if they even do that I can dodge them, otherwise if they happen in an accel, you do realise that I'm still "invulnerable" to your damage.
johnkretzer 11-29-06, 01:53 AM	YIDM, your main point is that the kinestics can out damage a evoker. Lets look at the 3 round out put of damage. The psion can do either 1244, 1094 or 802. The evoker(you only gave one way example) can do 849 Now according to core the there 3 cr 20s, a cr 21 and a cr 23(discounting dragons because they have a artificialy low CR) The 3 20s and their HPs are Balor:290 HP(Max. of 360) Pit Fiend:255 (Max. of 288) Tarrasque:858 (though again as with dragons I think it's cr is lower then it should be. Also there is only ever one off them.) 1 Cr 21 Titan: 370 (max:440) 1 Cr 23 Solar:209 (max. of 286) A barbarian at 20th level with a con of 30(while raging) and max hp for every level will have 440 HP. Both of your examples will kill any small size armies of these in a 3 round time period. With the exception of the Tarrasque which any party would only ever face once anway. So the psion can do a extra (at most) 395 point damage. A creature is just as dead at -804 as he is at -409. So really both evoker and a kinestics get the job done in terms of damage. Also who would I want in my party I really don't see a difference.
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 02:07 AM	Correct me if i'm wrong, but if a schism activates timeless body from an item, is it not so that the item affects the Schism not the character. If i'm not mistaken The Schism and the character are two separate entities save for the effects of a mind affecting power. so a schism that activates Timeless body item does not induce timeless body on the main mind. and don't worry about me, the format of this thread means that its impossible to produce some sort of "ideal" thread. I figure as long as we try to be through and keep all things in context we can try to bring this thread out of the morass its in.
Psionx 11-29-06, 02:13 AM	Correct me if i'm wrong, but if a schism activates timeless body from an item, is it not so that the item affects the Schism not the character. If i'm not mistaken The Schism and the character are two separate entities save for the effects of a mind affecting power. so a schism that activates Timeless body item does not induce timeless body on the main mind. and don't worry about me, the format of this thread means that its impossible to produce some sort of "ideal" thread. I figure as long as we try to be through and keep all things in context we can try to bring this thread out of the morass its in. Nitpick: thorough...keep everything in context..., we can try... it's Srry, gotta be thorough:D (just teasing ya) EDIT: Can you forgive me and suspect for our offenses?
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 02:25 AM	I agree, direct-damage-dealing isn't at the very bottom of the list of things to be doing. That goes to casting Disintegrate and killing yourself. Next goes to sitting on your hands and doing nothing. *Then* comes blasting. So let me get this strait...in order for you to ‘prove’ that psionics aren’t broken, you’re comparing it to game rule exploits/loopholes that 95% of DMs wouldn’t allow anyway?My point is that core magic (arcane AND divine) are so full of loopholes like this that it's pathetic. Magic is eminently breakable. And there are lots and lots of spells that are, as is, broken, with Magic Missile being the first of these. Wouldn’t it be smarter to compare it to more legitimate tactics?How more legitimate can you get? I didn't break a single rule anywhere. Heck, nowhere in there is a single place where that combination wouldn't work. Just because a DM houserules that it doesn't work doesn't mean it doesn't work via the core rules. All that means is that it doesn't work in his game. Or is that they only way you force magic to compete? Why not compare legitimate magic-based tactics (that DMs will allow) to legitimate psionic-based tactics? That seems like the most “reasonable” way to compare two things. (that's just me)I can do that. And I can do it in a way that actually plays to a wizard's strengths as opposed to trying to match everything the psion can do. That's the way to play a wizard, not by 'I see a class that can do a couple of things better than I can! I'd better spend my resources by trying to do something stupid, as opposed to actually being good at what I'm supposed to be doing!' Face it, any character that had a build like yours is not even remotely playing up to his strengths, and is not even remotely intelligently built. While within a Time-Stop (Extended via a metamagic rod), a simple 5th level spell (Wall of Stone) domed around the wizard can invalidate the need to worry about Antimagic Fields, casting while silenced or grappled, Energy Balls, Energy Bolts, Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, Crystal Shards, Ectoplasmic Cocoons, and a huge number of other spells, powers, tactics, and effects. Building a WoS inside of a Prismatic Sphere protects the WoS from taking any kind of damage until the Sphere is taken care of (and unless your psion has a Rod of Cancellation handy, he ain't taking it down). The Ring Gates I mentioned earlier could just as easily be held by some summonables, rather than glued to the foreheads of some really nasty CR 27 dragons (which I also did via Time-Stop). And guess what? Many of my summoned creatures have some very high-level casting abilities - and you'd better believe that an army of them is coming for you. The only way to get in is to Metamorphosis into a creature that can burrow (which is why I'd plan on casting Wall of Iron to push over and stand on), or to teleport in (which is why I'd cast Dimensional Anchor on the walls). I could have my familiar running around in an Antimagic Field effect. All it would have to do would be to run within 10 feet of you. Then the aforesaid dragons would likely eat you alive. If that didn't work, I'd make a Knowledge: Psionics check, likely figuring out that it was your psicrown that was giving you invulnerability, and have my dragons use their entire attack routines to sunder it (and any other equipment you were carrying, just in case). Assuming that you managed to kill my familiar, and survived the Summoned/Gated creatures, then found ways around my turtle-shell, AND somehow got to me, I used my free time in my temporal plastic bubble to cast Shapechange, which means that I'm now an incorporeal undead, so you'll likely not be able to hurt me. And if you get past the 50% miss-chance imposed by incorporeality, I also used a Limited Wish to get a Contingencied Dimension-Door to transport me 5' underground, if something actually can damage me; since I'm incorporeal, I can exist within solid matter, so that's specifically allowed. Good luck getting to me there. Also, to counteract your Schism effect, I have about 5 10th-level Simulacrums running around, trying to hit you with Forcecages and such (and unlike yours, they have no duration, have a full complement of spells as 10th-level casters, and don't drain any of my current resources). They were in my Bag of Holding, which I dumped out as a move-action on one of my plastic-bubble rounds, or perhaps on a later round; it doesn't matter that much. And, assuming that you somehow managed to survive, have taken down all of my defenses, and then *killed* me, remember that it wasn't actually *me.* You've been fighting my Astral Projection this whole time, which has instantaneously returned to my real body (which is in my Bag of Holding, inert and in stasis). What this means is that I can learn from my mistakes and try to kill you all over again. By that time, you're likely down to 1/2 your power points or less, assuming that I haven't killed you after my familiar's AMF, my MKDs or my dragons' sunders and MKDs (or AMFs) take out your Timeless Body. Stat damage/drain is horrible, especially to either a manifesting stat (Int) or one of your weaker stats (Con or Cha), not to mention innumerable save-or-dies that target your rather weak Fortitude save (and that's not even including the spells that make you suffer without a single save - such as Otto's Irresistable Dance or Maze). And to keep you and that pesky psicrystal from galavanting about with teleportation spells, my dragons and I have hit you with a half dozen Dimensional Anchor spells - touch attack, no save. You ain't going anywhere. And, assuming you killed me AGAIN somehow (as I Extended Time-Stopped before teleporting out of the bag, and put up my defenses again), note that I had at least one Clone in my Bag of Holding (which is now me, and I could have more - note that all it costs is, at most, 1500 gp, and that I can have as many of these as I like, up to my gp limit), and that it's about to be teleporting out to keep up the barrage of spells that I've been flinging at you. And before you start yelling about how I'm chewing through my spell-slots like mad, note that I've perhaps only actually casted a few spells from slots. The rest have been through my chock-full Rods of Absorption, and perhaps a few scrolls (and I can have tons of these, if I wanted them). Thus, I've only used a fraction of my resources thus far. We are, at most, 15 rounds or so in. You've hardly been able to touch me, very likely, and if you have, I'm still in the running. Still want to duel using legitimate maneuvers? Every single one of those are RAW, RAI, allowable uses of arcane power. ...And I've barely scratched the surface.
Psionx 11-29-06, 02:35 AM	I agree, direct-damage-dealing isn't at the very bottom of the list of things to be doing. That goes to casting Disintegrate and killing yourself. Next goes to sitting on your hands and doing nothing. *Then* comes blasting. My point is that core magic (arcane AND divine) are so full of loopholes like this that it's pathetic. Magic is eminently breakable. And there are lots and lots of spells that are, as is, broken, with Magic Missile being the first of these. How more legitimate can you get? I didn't break a single rule anywhere. Heck, nowhere in there is a single place where that combination wouldn't work. Just because a DM houserules that it doesn't work doesn't mean it doesn't work via the core rules. All that means is that it doesn't work in his game. I can do that. And I can do it in a way that actually plays to a wizard's strengths as opposed to trying to match everything the psion can do. That's the way to play a wizard, not by 'I see a class that can do a couple of things better than I can! I'd better spend my resources by trying to do something stupid, as opposed to actually being good at what I'm supposed to be doing!' Face it, any character that had a build like yours is not even remotely playing up to his strengths, and is not even remotely intelligently built. While within a Time-Stop (Extended via a metamagic rod), a simple 5th level spell (Wall of Stone) domed around the wizard can invalidate the need to worry about Antimagic Fields, casting while silenced or grappled, Energy Balls, Energy Bolts, Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, Crystal Shards, Ectoplasmic Cocoons, and a huge number of other spells, powers, tactics, and effects. Building a WoS inside of a Prismatic Sphere protects the WoS from taking any kind of damage until the Sphere is taken care of (and unless your psion has a Rod of Cancellation handy, he ain't taking it down). The Ring Gates I mentioned earlier could just as easily be held by some summonables, rather than glued to the foreheads of some really nasty CR 27 dragons (which I also did via Time-Stop). And guess what? Many of my summoned creatures have some very high-level casting abilities - and you'd better believe that an army of them is coming for you. The only way to get in is to Metamorphosis into a creature than can burrow (which is why I'd plan on casting Wall of Iron to push over and stand on), or to teleport in (which is why I'd cast Dimensional Anchor on the walls). I could have my familiar running around in an Antimagic Field effect. All it would have to do would be to run within 10 feet of you. Then the aforesaid dragons would likely eat you alive. If that didn't work, I'd make a Knowledge: Psionics check, likely figuring out that it was your psicrown that was giving you invulnerability, and have my dragons use their entire attack routines to sunder it (and any other equipment you were carrying, just in case). Assuming that you managed to kill my familiar, and survived the Summoned/Gated creatures, then found ways around my turtle-shell, AND somehow got to me, I used my free time in my temporal plastic bubble to cast Shapechange, which means that I'm now an incorporeal undead, so you'll likely not be able to hurt me. And if you get past the 50% miss-chance imposed by incorporeality, I also used a Limited Wish to get a Contingencied Dimension-Door to transport me 5' underground, if something actually can damage me; since I'm incorporeal, I can exist within solid matter, so that's specifically allowed. Good luck getting to me there. Also, to counteract your Schism effect, I have about 5 10th-level Simulacrums running around, trying to hit you with Forcecages and such (and unlike yours, they have no duration, have a full complement of spells as 10th-level casters, and don't drain any of my current resources). They were in my Bag of Holding, which I dumped out as a move-action on one of my plastic-bubble rounds, or perhaps on a later round; it doesn't matter that much. And, assuming that you somehow managed to survive, taken down all of my defenses, and then *killed* me, remember that it wasn't actually *me.* You've been fighting my Astral Projection this whole time, which has instantaneously returned to my real body (which is in my Bag of Holding, inert and in stasis). What this means is that I can learn from my mistakes and try to kill you all over again. By that time, you're likely down to 1/2 your power points or less, assuming that I haven't killed you after my familiar's AMF, my MKDs or my dragons' sunders and MKDs (or AMFs) take out your Timeless Body. Stat damage/drain is horrible, especially to either a manifesting stat (Int) or one of your weaker stats (Con or Cha), not to mention innumerable save-or-dies that target your rather weak Fortitude save (and that's not even including the spells that make you suffer without a single save - such as Otto's Irresistable Dance or Maze). And to keep you and that pesky psicrystal from galavanting about with teleportation spells, my dragons and I have hit you with a half dozen Dimensional Anchor spells - touch attack, no save. You ain't going anywhere. And, assuming you killed me AGAIN somehow (as I Extended Time-Stopped before teleporting out of the bag, and put up my defenses again), note that I had at least one Clone in my Bag of Holding (which is now me, and I could have more - note that all it costs is, at most, 1500 gp, and that I can have as many of these as I like, up to my gp limit), and that it's about to be teleporting out to keep up the barrage of spells that I've been flinging at you. And before you start yelling about how I'm chewing through my spell-slots like mad, note that I've perhaps only actually casted a few spells from slots. The rest have been through my chock-full Rods of Absorption, and perhaps a few scrolls (and I can have tons of these, if I wanted them). Thus, I've only used a fraction of my resources thus far. We are, at most, 15 rounds or so in. You've hardly been able to touch me, very likely, and if you have, I'm still in the running. Still want to duel using legitimate maneuvers? Every single one of those are RAW, RAI, allowable uses of arcane power. ...And I've barely scratched the surface. :OMG! :88E: =:ghosted: , but remember that I haven't bought all those wonderful books so I use whats available to me (DMG,PHB,MM,UA, (I have 3.0 psi handbook, but I have it in a buried safe with explosives just in case it tries to haunt me. (Note: I realize that it's contageous, so I had my astral construct put it in there (I'm so paranoid that I used psychic reformation twice to unlearn the astral construct power and learn a new one))))
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 02:38 AM	Also, note that the only things I used were in the core 3. I didn't even have access to the XPHB, let alone the thousands of other combinations of spells that having access to any splatbook would give to me.
TheDarkLord 11-29-06, 02:42 AM	Also, note that the only things I used were in the core 3. I didn't even have access to the XPHB, let alone the thousands of other combinations of spells that having access to any splatbook would give to me. Who said psiconcs was more broken than core magic? :D
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 02:50 AM	Also, my wizard can use his 5th-level slots and below for utility spells. So, to sum things up, unless YIDM has something up his sleeves that I've never seen or even heard of, my above wizard build wins on nova ability, invulnerability, endurance, AND utility, all at the same time. [edit] Do you want to know what the sick, sad part about that build is? Prior to that, I had never really looked at higher level magic before, and had not once, EVER, made an arcane caster. It took me approximately 5-10 minutes to come up with that particular combo, though it did take awhile to refine. [edit2] And before someone calls me out on Gating in 42 hd creatures, I have an Orange Ioun Stone, so it's legal. [edit3] Also, I have never done anything like this in an actual game, nor would I. I prefer subtle use of my power, and doing things sneakily. The only truly optimized build thus far that I've actually played in-game is a shaper/constructor designed around the few powers that auto-scale, thus increasing his stamina by insane amounts - though he's not much during battle, he's a whiz at making things. Utility FTW! [edit4] Another thing to keep in mind: I didn't use a single metamagic feat in there ANYWHERE. I could've had all of my feats taken up with Toughness, for all the good they did me in that battle, though I likely would've taken item-creation feats, so I could make items cheaper and get more stuff. Item-creation is one of the most powerful things a wizard can do, as it allows more stuff like the aforementioned psion-slaughter. Wands, scrolls, Headbands of Intellect, Clones, Simulacrums, rods of all shapes and sizes (with Metamagic Rods and Rods of Absorption foremost amongst them), and all for 1/2 the gold necessary to buy them. With the 10,000 extra XP I had at my disposal, that gives me 250,000 gp in items that are all half-price (in other words, 125,000 gp in free magic items). And in a game with normal XP-rules, that means that I'm getting extra XP each encounter for being a bit behind (though wizards are so incredibly powerful that this hardly leaves them eating the psion's dust). And had I decided that I wanted to use enough XP for crafting items that my actual level was 19, with 29,000 XP to spend, his power would have only increased (contrary to logic as it is).
Tsuul 11-29-06, 03:49 AM	I also used a Limited Wish to get a Contingencied Dimension-Door to transport me 5' underground,Something in my head keeps telling me that you have to be adjacent to open space. But I can't think this late/early. It might be a sageism, which could be ignorable.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 03:56 AM	All the while, I've Gated in a half-dozen great wyrm gold dragons (celestial ones, if necessary) with Ring Gates Sovereign Glue'd to their foreheads (turned exit-side out) and Rings of Spell-Turning.Fixed. And as for how you do *that,* cast Time-Stop, sharing it with your familiar, Gate them in (either a Rod of Quicken or an Extended Time Stop would do the trick), then have your familiar apply glue to the Ring Gates, and attach them (exit-side out), and then the familiar would take pre-made or pre-purchased Rings of Spell-Turning to slip on the dragons' claws. And you can assist with these things on the move-actions between castings. As was said before, a good wizard thinks with his head, not with his spell-slots. Something in my head keeps telling me that you have to be adjacent to open space. But I can't think this late/early. It might be a sageism, which could be ignorable.That's what I meant (though you're taking "5' underground" as meaning "a 5' space away from the surface," as opposed to "in the 5' space adjacent to the surface, underground"). Sorry. Lycan, you forgot Dream Travel on the Psion's side. Since it's not a plane, I don't think there's any way for an arcanist to escape the realm of dreams except via Wish. Shame about targetting the Will save, though.Should I even bother to mention that I could use Minor/Major Creation to fill my stone-dome with Black Lotus Extract (Limited Wish, worded properly, would allow me to cast my next spell - M/M Creation, as a free action), so if he entered my bubble, he'd likely die on the first round of exposure? I'm Shapechanged into an undead, so I'm immune. He's not. Or, I could just fill the bubble with the original Wall of Stone, leaving a 2' x 1' x 1' chunk empty, that includes the Ring Gates. I'm incorporeal, so it won't bother me a bit.
crizhII 11-29-06, 04:32 AM	I don’t even know what to say to that rudeness. Wow. Perhaps you don’t have anything better to say so you must spew venom at me? Even Lyc. Agreed it’d be a pointless exercise and wouldn’t prove anything. Alas, we haven’t even come to the terms to “fight it out yet” so, I couldn’t post if I wanted to. Grovel, grovel. Did I give offence, forgive me o great one, I am but a worthless worm. Shut up. 'Come to terms', don't make me laugh. You haven't even had the courage to acknowledge the challenge to his face yet. Let alone criticise any of the rules of the challenge. Yet again. You have been challenged to create a Kineticist (or any flaming Psion at all) that will stand up to a Wizard in a reasonable test of his abilities in a range of predetermined circumstances. So confident are you that your Psion will walk all over the Wizard you have ignored the whole thing in the hopes that it will go away. There are two things that you can say now. 1. I don't think the challenge is fair. This is why, specifically, and this is the change I would be willing to accept to make it fair. 2. Here is my Psion, I'm ready to go. No wait there's three... 3. Blah, blah, blah, blah, evade, blah, blah, troll, blah, evade, blah, whine, blah, blah, blah... You have been, flat out, asked to do one thing. You have signally failed to do so in several thousand, extremely 'erudite', words of blahing and evasion. Yes I am blunt. Yes I will continue to be so until you shut up or put up.
crizhII 11-29-06, 04:55 AM	edit- doh
RadicalTaoist 11-29-06, 08:43 AM	I'm thinking what irritates people the most is the seemingly fluid definition of 'legitimate tactics'. If you clarify that as something besides "tactics which would demonstrate the wizard as clearly superior", YIDM, you'd deflate a lot of hostility. I think.
Nephlite 11-29-06, 11:21 AM	Really depends on what you “expect” to be handling in an encounter. I can tell you a wizard has access to none of the above. No extra temporary hit points to survive any surprise rounds, no 8 point insight bonus to saves and AC against traps and the like, no touchsight to defeat illusions and hidden (not invisible) foes – so…which would you rather play? Your Immortal DM Have you even played a Wizard: False Life adds Temp Hps for a hr/level. Vigor lasts just minutes. You have to re-manifest Vigor whether you are hit or not for every battle, not so with false Life. Heck, it is only 2nd level, you coud research a higher level versions that gives more. True Sight spell defeats illiusions. Magic has a lot of spells for AC. Alter Self (up to 6-8 Natural armor), etc.
DisposableHero_ 11-29-06, 12:09 PM	Interesting “conclusion” there, I know a lot of people that would argue with that. (including some designers) [especially so at the mid to mid-high levels].I know a lot of people who are wrong sometimes (including some designers). Last I heard from the game designers, they attempted to “balance” the schools in 3.5 so they were all powerful schools; i.e. moved power words to enchantment, upped meteor swarm damage, changed durations of various spells, etc. etc.Last I heard they didn't perfectly accomplish everything they attempted to do. Just because they tried to address the issue doesn't mean they got it right (or more accurately, that one really can get it right). Yeah...and repeated uses of evocation kill an opponent.And, if you'd spent more than a second reading my post you'd have noticed that I went on to point out that repeated uses of other spells will kill most opponent types faster and more efficiently. So is the fighter/barbarian a useless class cause all he does is inflict damage (with the occasional disarm, trip, or sunder)? That’s essentially what you’re saying: “Damage is useless” Don’t think the WotC designers would agree with you. (who knows, maybe they would?)1) Warrior types should be the ones dealing damage because they waste no resources in doing so, so my point is not "damage is useless" rather damage is not something to spend limited resources on. 2) Anyone who believes a fighter or barbarian is only useful for inflicting damage has a very narrow and tactically inflexible view of D&D, and would have difficulty contributing and surviving in the games I run. 3) It doesn't matter if the WotC designers agree with me or not, if they didn't, they might well be wrong. As a final point, please please please, when quoting multiple posts label the quote with which poster you are responding too, it is a pain to track back and figure out which of your unlabeled quotes are mine. Thanks
carnivore 11-29-06, 12:15 PM	the whole point is that the Psion will have a very High output of damage...but then drops off to almost nothing very quickly.... the examples in the first post work for a SINGLE combat lasting 3 rounds.....but this does not work for an extended encounter with several waves of combat .....the kind you could expect in a Realistic Dungeon encounter also large scale Direct Damage is not the answer in situations where you dont want lots of collateral damage(Tornado Blast is very PP/damage efficient, but is not the tool in a magical Library) there is a reason that you can buy so many types of hammers...some small, some large.....pick the right one for the job....not every job requires a sledge hammer.... after buffing....the Psion has far fewer PP to give to Large Direct Damage tactics than you might think i love to play Psions....but not without thinking :D
Pizzini3000 11-29-06, 12:56 PM	YIDM... have you considered the idea that it isn't psionics (specifically) that's broken, but the whole D20 system? manifesters going "nova" is a probelm, sure. But it's not just manifesters that have this problem. Any character with a resource and options of ways to spend that resource can go nova to some degree. I say, it's the ungoverned open-ended ability creation of D20 that makes it broken. Other than the "it feels broken" feeling, there is little to judge the strength of any given ability. (what i mean by ungoverned is there is no real set of rules of guidlines to create feats/spells/powers/etc. it's all up to the players/DMs/etc/Designers) Plug: My gaming system, i work on it just about every day, it's not finished, it started as just a d20 variant, but it's not even close anymore. One of its major goals is to eliminate this "it feels broken" feeling. http://www.geocities.com/pizzini3000/
Guroth the Forsaken 11-29-06, 02:18 PM	Not this again... Go away, YIDM (http://wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83067.jpg). This bears repeating! :pbbbtt:
Your Immortal DM 11-29-06, 02:43 PM	Here is the largest problem I have with the most recent group of people to hop on the boards with these threads 1. The Majority of these people enter the boards with the firm belief that psionics is overpowered, period. Similar to some people’s issues with Faerun Vs Eberron or Planescape Vs Spelljammer, they color all their posts and interpretations to fit their notions. Failing to objectively look at both systems and look for equality. If it were truly equal, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, nor would so many “ignorant” people posting things about psionics complaining. I’d like to think of this as an example of Acoms Razor – the simplest answer/solution is probably the correct one. The simplest answer/solution is that psionics “is” overpowered, hence why so many people complain. dude, i'm pretty sure mdj hits everything including your contingency b4 it activates, therefore, unless your contingency attempts to stop my MDJ you will get hit by one or the other. I can't be certain of this, but if I am incorrect, so are you and heres why Actually no. Depends on how it’s phrased. Feel free to debate that one with any number of people on these boards. While your temporal acceleration is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and powers, best you can do at 20th is a 3 turn temporal acceleration, and don't forget that you can't use more than 1 metapsionic feat due to psionic focus. So, at best you can deal 18d6+18 and not maximize them (can't even do that if you don't take psionic meditation), btw: only area and personal which eliminates alot, in addition, you just burned thru lets see 3*20=60 3 delayed blast area powers And at round 3 of my temporal acceleration (or if you prefer, round 2), I manifest temporal acceleration again (giving me another 3 rounds). --Or would you prefer I manifest delay temporal acceleration to go off 3 rounds later (keeping me in temporal acceleration after the first runs out? Rinse and repeat. (you’re in a loop of temporal accelerations, with a minor gap in between to watch the effect of your delayed powers go off before going back into the loop of temporal acceleration). Enjoy! 3> 5 rounds later, and you spent only 3, giving me plenty of time to get out of the way and laugh back. As well as laugh at how many power points you just blew on trying to kill me. This is interesting because the description above it says up to 5 rounds, however RAW says 5 rounds later. Actually I’m only delaying the powers 3 rounds, right after, my temporal acceleration would end, you get blown up by my delayed powers, then, my delayed temporal acceleration goes off again and I’m back in a brand new temporal acceleration (rinse and repeat). Nice huh? Oh and I now cast MDJ again (you don't have 10 minutes in temporal accel to set up another 1) and hit you with the aforementioned level drain. Actually I could just bend reality to set up another psionic contingency if I so choose (and wanted to blow 200 XP). EDIT: srry lokiyn bout that, but he really needs to read what he's doing I am…you’re not understanding what I’m doing. Correct me if i'm wrong, but if a schism activates timeless body from an item, is it not so that the item affects the Schism not the character. No…you’re mistaken. The schism brain is still in you & part of you and you are a creature (the schism brain is not). Timeless body works "personally" on your psions body. Feel free to ask anyone on these boards. I agree, direct-damage-dealing isn't at the very bottom of the list of things to be doing. That goes to casting Disintegrate and killing yourself. Next goes to sitting on your hands and doing nothing. *Then* comes blasting. Interesting opnion, wonder if the designers share that view or intended for it to be that way. I know about as many people that would disagree with you as agree with you – so that opinion you stated really doesn’t hold a lot of water. My point is that core magic (arcane AND divine) are so full of loopholes like this that it's pathetic. Magic is eminently breakable. How more legitimate can you get? I didn't break a single rule anywhere. Heck, nowhere in there is a single place where that combination wouldn't work. Just because a DM houserules that it doesn't work doesn't mean it doesn't work via the core rules. All that means is that it doesn't work in his game. So – because the magic system is breakable (by RAW) we should put no restraints on psionics to make it compete with rules exploits/loopholes of magic??? How does that make any sense? While within a Time-Stop (Extended via a metamagic rod), Last I heard, you can’t extend time stop. You can empower or maximize it though. (or was that in a FAQ?) While within a Time-Stop (Extended via a metamagic rod), a simple 5th level spell (Wall of Stone) domed around the wizard can invalidate the need to worry about Antimagic Fields, casting while silenced or grappled, Energy Balls, Energy Bolts, Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, Crystal Shards, Ectoplasmic Cocoons, and a huge number of other spells, powers, tactics, and effects. Actually they break quite easy. The stone wall has only 75 hp per 5 ft. square (for a 20th level caster). That blows up pretty fast from a single good tornado blast (and the damage continues on to affect the wizard inside). Considering various temporal acceleration loops and delayed powers, the wizard would be dead before getting the chance to fight back. (or destroyed if he’s astrally projected). Building a WoS inside of a Prismatic Sphere protects the WoS from taking any kind of damage until the Sphere is taken care of (and unless your psion has a Rod of Cancellation handy, he ain't taking it down). How are you getting in or out? Teleporting? (the kineticist I built can do that too) or to teleport in (which is why I'd cast Dimensional Anchor on the walls). How do you think dimensional archor on the walls stops teleporting in? Or am I misreading your text? Assuming that you managed to kill my familiar, Fairly trival while in temporal acceleration loops (with touchsight) and survived the Summoned/Gated creatures, Same as above. then found ways around my turtle-shell, AND somehow got to me, Trival again with teleportation or burrowing / disintegrate powers. I used my free time in my temporal plastic bubble to cast Shapechange, which means that I'm now an incorporeal undead, so you'll likely not be able to hurt me. Great! Now comes more delayed powers while in my temporal acceleration loop(s). And if you get past the 50% miss-chance imposed by incorporeality, I also used a Limited Wish to get a Contingencied Dimension-Door to transport me 5' underground, if something actually can damage me; since I'm incorporeal, I can exist within solid matter, so that's specifically allowed. Good luck getting to me there. With a little bend reality (trace teleport), I know just where you are. Now I disintegrate the 5’ square of earth you’re hiding in, all while in temporal acceleration, and destroy you as before. Also, to counteract your Schism effect, I have about 5 10th-level Simulacrums running around, Great! So do I! - via use Magic Device skill and some purchased scrolls (later psychically reforming the skill points to something more desirable) And, assuming that you somehow managed to survive, taken down all of my defenses, and then *killed* me, remember that it wasn't actually *me.* You've been fighting my Astral Projection this whole time, which has instantaneously returned to my real bodyGreat! And I have fiery discorporation to do the same. Stat damage/drain is horrible, especially to either a manifesting stat (Int) or one of your weaker stats (Con or Cha), not to mention innumerable save-or-dies that target your rather weak Fortitude save (and that's not even including the spells that make you suffer without a single save - such as Otto's Irresistable Dance or Maze). Sadly you never even got to act, as my psionic contingency triggered and started me in the temporal acceleration loop. There-by invalidating a majority of your tactics. And, assuming you killed me AGAIN somehow (as I Extended Time-Stopped before teleporting out of the bag, and put up my defenses again), note that I had at least one Clone in my Bag of Holding (which is now me, and I could have more - note that all it costs is, at most, 1500 gp, and that I can have as many of these as I like, up to my gp limit), and that it's about to be teleporting out to keep up the barrage of spells that I've been flinging at you. Great! And my astral seed will do the same for me. How’d I get that? With a simple psychic reformation of the feat Expanded Knowledge of course! Still want to duel using legitimate maneuvers? Every single one of those are RAW, RAI, allowable uses of arcane power. As are mine (noted above). So, to sum things up, unless YIDM has something up his sleeves that I've never seen or even heard of, my above wizard build wins on nova ability, invulnerability, endurance, AND utility, all at the same time. See above. The kinetcisit build can do almost anything you can do, and can do it better. AND kill the wizard while exhausting a bit of his resources. Sadly the wizards blowing 1,000 XP per gate, so who's the real victor? We done comparing yet? Or do I need to blow up you’re wizard model some more (in round 1; albeit a really long temporal accelerated round 1)? Anything you toss out, the kineticist (or psion for that matter) can do better, and often kill everything in sight before it even acts. A sad state of affairs indeed. I'm thinking what irritates people the most is the seemingly fluid definition of 'legitimate tactics'. If you clarify that as something besides "tactics which would demonstrate the wizard as clearly superior", YIDM, you'd deflate a lot of hostility. I think. Perhaps…I can only guess what some view as “reasonable” and others do not. I’m pretty certain 100,000+ damage shrunken items isn’t in the list of “reasonable”. (nor was that the design intent) Pretty sure we shouldn’t base future products and core game balance with that in mind (of course, I could be wrong) As a final point, please please please, when quoting multiple posts label the quote with which poster you are responding too, it is a pain to track back and figure out which of your unlabeled quotes are mine. Sorry about this – I lose track the method in which I respond. After this post I’ll attempt to do that to ease things for you. (I do sympathize and don’t wish to be any more confrontational than I have to be) YIDM... have you considered the idea that it isn't psionics (specifically) that's broken, but the whole D20 system?Actually I have. What to do about it varies from DM to DM. Heck, so do the houserules for that matter. I don’t think I know of a game that doesn’t at least have (1) houserule, but I could be wrong. Your Immortal DM
Bacris 11-29-06, 02:54 PM	I'm only going to address a very small portion of your post, because I think it is the most important: So what you are admitting is magic is overpowered, so houserule it. On a similar front, psionics is overpowered, so houserule it. Would that be a fair assessment boiled to the lowest common denominator?
Nephlite 11-29-06, 03:06 PM	If it were truly equal, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, nor would so many “ignorant” people posting things about psionics complaining. I’d like to think of this as an example of Acoms Razor – the simplest answer/solution is probably the correct one. The simplest answer/solution is that psionics “is” overpowered, hence why so many people complain. I don't think that term means what you think it means. By the way, his name started with an O. And yes, ignorant peope post about every topic. We wouldn't have had the Terry Shaivo case in America if not for ignorance about what Coma and Vegatative State meant. They aren't the same. And at round 3 of my temporal acceleration (or if you prefer, round 2), I manifest temporal acceleration again (giving me another 3 rounds). --Or would you prefer I manifest delay temporal acceleration to go off 3 rounds later (keeping me in temporal acceleration after the first runs out? Rinse and repeat. (you’re in a loop of temporal accelerations, with a minor gap in between to watch the effect of your delayed powers go off before going back into the loop of temporal acceleration). Enjoy! Fear effects stack. If you are shaken you become Frightened. Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the path of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. However, if the duration of their fear continues, characters can be forced to flee once more if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken). Add another and you are panicked. Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. Other than running away from the source, their path is random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing. Either way, you lose the competetion as you are running with your tail between your legs (you most likely have teleport and it says you must use best movement ability). Enjoy! So – because the magic system is breakable (by RAW) we should put no restraints on psionics to make it compete with rules exploits/loopholes of magic??? How does that make any sense? No one said that. We are saying: you can't call magic balanced (after applying house rules without stating you are) and call Psionics not balanced (even with house rules). One of these isn't like the other. Either Psionics is balanced compared to Magic (with neither having houserules) or Magic is broken without houserules. Thus leave Psionics alone. You can say Psionics without house rules can be (especially with the Complete Psi new powers) as broken as magic without houserules. That would at least be honest.
Ornedan 11-29-06, 03:13 PM	So – because the magic system is breakable (by RAW) we should put no restraints on psionics to make it compete with rules exploits/loopholes of magic??? How does that make any sense?Feel free to houserule anyway you like. But also, what you are saying here is, essentially, "Oh noes! After nerfing magic, but not psionics, psionics is more powerfull!" And that makes any claim of overpoweredness invalid outside the scope of your personal houserules.
NoldorForce 11-29-06, 03:24 PM	Problems with YIDM's methods: -As above, fear stacks. -Beating the wizard by mimicing him (as above, using UMD and a Simulacrum collection) does not show that psionics are overpowered. If anything, it's fodder for an argument that core spellcasting is overpowered. -The use of Dimensional Anchor on a wall to block dimensional travel is perfectly legitimate.Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel." That being said, Burrowing Power could get you through the Prismatic Sphere, but then the wizard could probably also DA the Sphere, making Burrowing Power ineffective. (Burrowing Power uses dimensional travel to bypass barriers. -This will require lots of PP, considering the chained Temporal Accelerations and Delayed energy powers. In contrast, most of the wizard's investment has been made ahead of time. -Occam's Razor is more specific than that, carrying the qualifier of "all else being equal". And going by your interpretation of it...it's possible to reach the same conclusion about core magic after seeing Gate.
Psionx 11-29-06, 03:34 PM	Aw man nephlite beat me to it, well acutally he beat me to it by a while so w/e. Anyway like I said, but for different reasons you can't even do that. (still, gate, just omg... it's like anything, for 1000xp, never fails, and they don't disagree, zomg. No dieties tho... still awesome tho.)
AntiDjinn 11-29-06, 03:35 PM	How does Fiery Discorporation ever come up in balance discussions? What a turkey of a power. It only kicks in when you are about to die (wouldn't you rather spend a slot being more effective than just being better at being on the ropes?). At that is only kicks in when you are about to die to due to hit point damage; it does not work vs. sudden death effects, stat drains, death due to negative levels, poison and disease damage, annihilation, or a host of other effects. It also takes you out of the fight and leaves you no better off: If you have two hit points left when it activates (it takes place instead of whatever would have killed you) you still have two hit points when you stagger out of the fire 24 hours later. It does not reset you to full hit points or any other such nonsense. And anyone making the psicraft roll knows the exact power used and can just camp the fire to kill you when you emerge: In using it you basically grant a day long Time Stop to your opponents because they can spend the day resting, memorizing, and recuperating, while you cannot. For another clear example of where arcane casters get the same but better see pages 121-122 of the Spell Compendium; the spell Indomitability does exactly what Fiery Discorporation does (block an infinite amount of damage from a single attack that would have killed or incapacitated you) without putting you on hold for 24 hours. The mage who uses Indomitability can shoot back instead of waiting a day to see what fate his opponent has prepared for him.:nonono: The mage with indomitability can take the kineticist's nova on the chin and then shoot back the same round.
MasonZII 11-29-06, 03:39 PM	Occam's. We'd also accept Ockham's or Ockam's.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 03:46 PM	Interesting opnion, wonder if the designers share that view or intended for it to be that way. I know about as many people that would disagree with you as agree with you – so that opinion you stated really doesn’t hold a lot of water.So, you know people who think that committing suicide is a viable way to play? Hey, if you can take things out of context, so can I. So – because the magic system is breakable (by RAW) we should put no restraints on psionics to make it compete with rules exploits/loopholes of magic??? How does that make any sense? My point is that barring like two powers in the XPHB, you don't HAVE to put any restraints on psionics that aren't already called for in the DMG which contain the rules that the DM is supposed to follow, if loosely. Mages need to be restricted far moreso than psionics do, as they are far more breakable with just a very small amount of thought. Last I heard, you can’t extend time stop. You can empower or maximize it though. (or was that in a FAQ?)Time Stop has a duration: 1d4+1 rounds, to be exact. It's Extendable. Anything else is houserules. Actually they break quite easy. The stone wall has only 75 hp per 5 ft. square (for a 20th level caster). That blows up pretty fast from a single good tornado blast (and the damage continues on to affect the wizard inside).Not if it's inside a Prismatic Sphere, it won't. Try finding a way for a psionicist to take down said Sphere without either a Rod of Cancellation or a spell. Not happening. How are you getting in or out? Teleporting? (the kineticist I built can do that too)It's called being incorporeal. I don't need to teleport. And if I've filled up the Dome of Stone with more stone, you can't teleport in without being incorporeal anyway. How do you think dimensional archor on the walls stops teleporting in? Or am I misreading your text?Take a good, close look at the Dimensional Anchor spell. From the SRD: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm) "A green ray springs from your outstretched hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel." In addition: "A dimensional anchor does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast." Thus, my Ring Gates still work. And if I fill up the inside of the Dome of Stone with more stone, you can't teleport in anyway. (On killing my familiar and Gated dragons in AMFs, as well as my summons):Fairly trival while in temporal acceleration loops (with touchsight)For the 57th time, you CANNOT DIRECTLY AFFECT CREATURES WHILE IN A TEMPORAL ACCELERATION. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm) Also, any AMFs in the area are places that you cannot pass through, nor in any way, shape, or form, affect in any sense. None of your powers (aside from instantaneous creation effects) can pass through an AMF. This includes Touch Sight. Delayed Energy Balls (for example) would also be completely irrelevant. You *might* be able to kill my familiar, but you're going to have to be tossing out a lot of your resources staying alive while you do it. Trival again with teleportation or burrowing / disintegrate powers.I could make teleportation completely irrelevant, and you have to know right where I am in order for Burrowing Power to work. Great! Now comes more delayed powers while in my temporal acceleration loop(s).And HOW many power points are you burning through while doing this? Assuming that anything you do actually has a chance of affecting me, I've already teleported out of range, which means that your entire mini-nova (and all of the power points it entailed) would be utterly wasted. With a little bend reality (trace teleport), I know just where you are. Now I disintegrate the 5’ square of earth you’re hiding in, all while in temporal acceleration, and destroy you as before.And how exactly does that work? If you mean that you're taking the next round to manifest Bend Reality, you can trace where I teleported to, but I've already moved, so it's completely irrelevant. And if you meant that you used Bend Reality for a Contigent Trace Teleport, how are you having more than one Contingency at a time? The rules specifically forbid more than one Contingency at a time, and you already had Contingency (Temporal Acceleration) up. You're breaking the rules again. All you're managing to show is that psionics is somehow overpowered when you don't follow the rules. Great! So do I! - via use Magic Device skill and some purchased scrolls (later psychically reforming the skill points to something more desirable)So...let me get this straight. You're casting magic...to show that psionics...is overpowered on its own? Yeah, that's gonna wash. Completely irrelevant, as it's not psionics at all. And here I thought there might be a shred of intelligence in your arguments, for once. (On using Simulacrums and Clones):Great! And I have Fiery Discorporation to do the same.Fine. Use Fiery Discorporation. It's a valid use a psionic power. Of course, since you're nowhere to be found for 24 hours (which means you automatically lose the duel), AND you return in the exact same place that you Discorporated (which means that if you fall into a volcano and die, or are in the BBEG's throne room, or get Plane-Shifted to the Negative Energy Plane, you're screwed), AND needs a Will save to pull off, AND you have to have an immediate action available (when you only get one per round), AND it takes power points that you may or may not have, AND you have to have a source of open flame nearby, whereas the Clone spell just needs a bit of time and gp, and you can also have multiples... It's useful under the right circumstances, but how is that matching (multiple) Clone spells again? Sadly you never even got to act, as my psionic contingency triggered and started me in the temporal acceleration loop. There-by invalidating a majority of your tactics.Remember, we get a single buff round. And even if we didn't, I'd likely be turtled up after having taken out the 3 gold dragons (whether by my Shrink Item cheese or by some other -easily doable- means), so your Temporal Acceleration would be a complete waste of power points. Great! And my astral seed will do the same for me. How’d I get that? With a simple psychic reformation of the feat Expanded Knowledge of course!Which means you've already lost, as per the contest rules. Astral Seed requires how much time after you die to be able to come back? Clones are instantaneous, as is the Astral Projection. Once again I've won. (On the legitimacy of his tactics):As are mine (noted above).Wrong again. See above for why. See above. The kinetcisit build can do almost anything you can do, and can do it better. AND kill the wizard while exhausting a bit of his resources. Sadly the wizards blowing 1,000 XP per gate, so who's the real victor?Take a close look at all of the things you've already gotten wrong. In half of those cases, they don't work. In the other half, doing what you've done loses the contest. As for 'exhausting a bit of his resources,' 90%-plus of his entire day's resources is 'a bit'? And using 1,000 of my XP is chump change, considering how much I just got from soloing those 3 gold dragons. I should have plenty left. Even if that were considered invalid, I have 10,000 XP to spend, so why not spend it where it'll do the most good? We done comparing yet? Or do I need to blow up you’re wizard model some more (in round 1; albeit a really long temporal accelerated round 1)?Go ahead, keep throwing out ridiculous, invalid, and contest-losing strategies. I'm sure it'll keep us all entertained for awhile. Anything you toss out, the kineticist (or psion for that matter) can do better, and often kill everything in sight before it even acts. A sad state of affairs indeed.Define 'better'. Thus far, you've managed to show that you don't know the psionics ruleset, that a psion casting magic spells is somehow proving that a psion's powers are superior, and that you can 'kill everything in sight' by completely breaking the rules. Nice one there.
Gondor 11-29-06, 04:08 PM	I'm not going to enter this debate (finals occurring in a week take precedence), but there is one thing I'd like cleared up. First, let us assume that YIDM has indeed made his case airtight--that his arguments prove without a doubt that the Kineticist is better than the evoker. The question remains, however--is it Psionics as a system that is broken, or one specific power? My question to you, YIDM, is as follows: Can you do any of this without Temporal Acceleration? I suspect that, in your analysis, it is this power that is causing the problem, and not the entire psionics system. This has real implications for the campaign I'm starting soon after Christmas. I intend to allow psionics, but I am hesitant to allow Temporal Acceleration specifically. I've played a high-level psion before, and I have found that power a little too useful. What are your thoughts?
carnivore 11-29-06, 04:10 PM	i still say that a "3 Round damage " comparison does not prove Overpowered or broken....it is NOT a REALISTIC comparison...unless you are talking about an"Arena" match(which Your Imortal DM said this was not)....thus this whole thread is INVALID......the discussion is not even close: Psion is Best compared to Sorceror with an intelligently played character....the Wizard will always come out on top......he can research his foes, determine the best attack, vary his tactics to suit his target....and attack with minimum resources needed to do the job. the Psion described here relies on brute force to accomplish his goals...and is easy to nullify.......as the main problem the Psion has is LACK of STAYING POWER....which a 3 round comparison does not show.....try a different approach: 3 encounters........10-15 round duration each...several different encounter types all at the same CR then you are actually comparing Apples to Apples....not Apples to oranges as has been done here :D
Ra-Tiel 11-29-06, 04:14 PM	[...] So let me get this strait...in order for you to ‘prove’ that psionics aren’t broken, you’re comparing it to game rule exploits/loopholes that 95% of DMs wouldn’t allow anyway? (making your claim largely invalid; however correct by RAW) How is using exploits and loopholes that DMs (and RPGA DMs) won’t allow prove that psionics are balanced? Wouldn’t it be smarter to compare it to more legitimate tactics? [...] Read your own words (emphasis mine) again, and then come again and think about your infinite TA cheese, ok? On a related sidenote, what stops the wizard from writing dozens of scrolls of time stop (which he really should have the XPs for, after you again reform everyone and their mother's worth of skills and powers in and out as you like without keeping track of the costs :nonono: ) and getting into an infinite time stop loop? :rolleyes:
Ichor Spellka 11-29-06, 04:17 PM	I just want to chime in here, repeating, by far, the most important point in this post: I'm only going to address a very small portion of your post, because I think it is the most important: So what you are admitting is magic is overpowered, so houserule it. On a similar front, psionics is overpowered, so houserule it. Would that be a fair assessment boiled to the lowest common denominator? Adding my own commentary: If you consider magic overpowered, chances are you also find psionics overpowered. If you consider psionics overpowered, chances are you also find magic overpowered. If you feel the need to houserule one system because you feel it is overpowered, there is no reason you shouldn't houserule the other that you similarly feel is overpowered. What is overpowered in some games is not overpowered in every game. Likewise, what is balanced in some games is not balanced in every game. Also, please keep things civil. As satisfying as personal attacks can be, they serve no purpose here. It shouldn't be an issue of the OP's behaviour, tactics, or arguments. I applaud those who have been going through all the arguments, and responding to them in a logical and civil manner. Please stay the course.
carnivore 11-29-06, 04:18 PM	good point about the XP cost ........ these comparisons should just allow 190000xp......that will get you to 20th.....but you cant use powers or spells that require xp...unless you drop back to 19th lvl....thus taking into consideration the cost these come with. also if you just turn 20th...you cant use a Power or spell that would make you go back a level.... :D
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 04:33 PM	This has real implications for the campaign I'm starting soon after Christmas. I intend to allow psionics, but I am hesitant to allow Temporal Acceleration specifically. I've played a high-level psion before, and I have found that power a little too useful. What are your thoughts? Well remember that Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead. Shaken;A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Frightened;A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. Panicked;A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. CoweringThe character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any). CrazedSee Hero's of Battle Pg 73 .... yes i enjoy list and indent a little much, it makes posts so much clearer. Many people underestimate status effects. Stinking cloud, a third level spell induces nausea which stops all casting/manifesting for as long as they are in the cloud and for 1d4+1 rounds.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 04:34 PM	It shouldn't be an issue of the OP's behaviour, tactics, or arguments.Au contraire. While the OP's behavior isn't up for debate (according to the thread), his tactics and arguments are EXTREMELY important issues, as they are the crux of the entire thread. "Magic is okay, but psionics is overpowered, and here's why..." "You've got *this* and *this* and *this* and *these 20 other things* incorrect. Is psionics really overpowered, or are you not thinking things through?" "But...I just told you why psionics are overpowered, and why magic is fine!" "And it's based on false premises." "But psionics ARE overpowered! I'll prove it!" *Lists off the exact same arguments as before, put forth in a slighly different manner.* "But...but...but...We just proved those as incorrect!" "So? I didn't listen to you before, why should I start now?" "..." The above was pretty much how our conversations have gone, thus far. How is this getting us anywhere? Yes, YIDM has responded to some comments, but by no means all of them (he has, in fact, ignored everything that would make all of his arguments invalid). He has even been vaguely polite, at least in tone. His 'debating' skills, however, are manipulative and designed to frustrate, rather than illuminating either side of the debate. And even if they aren't intentional, the result is the same. It's enough to make one want to avoid the entire psionics boards, sometimes, especially considering how often this happens. Thus, his tactics and arguments (and even his behavior, to an extent) are all crucial to the topic at hand.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 04:37 PM	That brings up a very, very good question, actually. Let's say YIDM unwisely uses two Temporal Accelerations, thus going to Shaken, then Frightened. What, exactly, is the source of his fear? What does he flee as fast as he can from? How? As far as I can see, the source of his fear is... himself. How does one escape oneself? I can see Astral Plane travel as possible, or simply suicide. Or cowering. Either way... it doth not bode well.
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 04:38 PM	P.S.Ta:Normal and magical fire, cold, acid, and the like can still harm you Ts:Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you. This is in both time stop and temporal acceleration. A time stopped wizard can still vitrify rock, or just pile up brush and light a bonfire. Plus you can under the effects of time __ simply Sovereign glue things to the enemy. Using Sovereign glue isn't an attack, and you can't harm or move items attended of which glueing a chain to the back of thier head is neither.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 04:39 PM	Hmmm... does Rock to Lava make magical or non-magical lava? *evil grin*
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 04:43 PM	nonmagical, and it wouldn't trigger most contingencies. The wizard attacks the ground not the opponant, and if the opponant spends time to accelerate or stop they "still" take damage, untill they leave the lava field 2d6 per round of exposure, 20d6 per round of immersion after exiting 1d6 or 10d6 for 1d3 rounds after leaving the field.
Ichor Spellka 11-29-06, 04:47 PM	Just to note, but I weighed in with a decent sized post in the last thread the OP started, in relation to his use of questionable tactics, arguments, and related issues. My intent was to say that attacks on him serve no purpose. If you want to point out the flaws in his arguments, his methods, and his tactics, that's fine with me. I fully support doing so, and have my own issues with the way he seems to go about arguing his points. I am personally thankful for your point-by-point rebuttals, Lycanthromancer. However, doing so in an insulting manner only detracts from the counter-arguments. It's far better for all concerned to keep things civil. I am not naming names of those I find to be failing in this regard. While reading through the thread, I noticed several instances of this happening, and figured I'd weigh in on the issue in that respect.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 04:51 PM	Thank you, Ichor. In any case, I would think that the psion in question would know that it was the Temporal Acceleration doing it, so he would avoid going into another TA at all costs. This means that if he had manifested a Delayed TA, he would do everything he could to dispel it, as soon as possible.
Khan the Destroyer 11-29-06, 04:54 PM	Your Immortal DM... you can prove that the Kineticist is 100,000,000 times stronger than an Evoker. It says nothing for whether or not Psionics is Overpowered. I feel like I repeat myself so many times in these useless threads, but it needs to be said. Just because the psion can do something that someone else can't, doesn't mean it automatically breaks the game. Once again, you have demonstrated that given your parameters, the kineticist can outdamage the evoker. Splendid. But you still have to show the psionic game-breakage going on (because despite what you may think, game-breaking doesn't mean stronger than X class). Further, your implication is that psionics is somehow unique in the possibility of being overpowered. So you also have to show that even though the evoker may do less damage than the psion in this instance, the evoker itself is not game-breaking. So go ahead and do those things, and then we'll share thoughts. Otherwise, what's your point?
Your Immortal DM 11-29-06, 05:00 PM	Fear effects stack. If you are shaken you become Frightened. Personal mind blank stops mind-affecting effects & SRD says: All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. So no dice there guys, try again. Either way, you lose the competetion as you are running with your tail between your legs (you most likely have teleport and it says you must use best movement ability). Nope, see personal mind blank for details. This has been on my kineticist build since day 1 of the OP. Either Psionics is balanced compared to Magic (with neither having houserules) or Magic is broken without houserules. Thus leave Psionics alone. You can say Psionics without house rules can be (especially with the Complete Psi new powers) as broken as magic without houserules. That would at least be honest. Now we’re getting somewhere. More actuarely…magic is broken without houserules and psionics is broken without houserules. That I’ll agree with. Feel free to houserule anyway you like. But also, what you are saying here is, essentially, "Oh noes! After nerfing magic, but not psionics, psionics is more powerfull!" And that makes any claim of overpoweredness invalid outside the scope of your personal houserules. Actually what I said was lets get rid of exploits/loopholes and then compare. Problem really is who will be definining an exploit? I’m pretty sure that a “majority” would agree that 100,000+ damage for a 2nd level spell is probably an exploit. The mage with indomitability can take the kineticist's nova on the chin and then shoot back the same round. Non-core, so irrelevant to our discussion. My point is that barring like two powers in the XPHB, you don't HAVE to put any restraints on psionics that aren't already called for in the DMG which contain the rules that the DM is supposed to follow, if loosely. Mages need to be restricted far moreso than psionics do, as they are far more breakable with just a very small amount of thought. That depends on who you ask. A mind blank and a loop of temporal accelerations is a real balance issue. Or don’t you think so? Linked temporal acceleration loops is a real issue in BBEG fights (climax of adventures, etc. etc.), since the party knows they’ll be resting later. It's called being incorporeal. I don't need to teleport. And if I've filled up the Dome of Stone with more stone, you can't teleport in without being incorporeal anyway. You’ll note my kineticist build has a cloak of etherealness Take a good, close look at the Dimensional Anchor spell. From the SRD: "A green ray springs from your outstretched hand. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit the target. Any creature or object struck by the ray is covered with a shimmering emerald field that completely blocks extradimensional travel." In addition: "A dimensional anchor does not interfere with the movement of creatures already in ethereal or astral form when the spell is cast." Thus, my Ring Gates still work. And if I fill up the inside of the Dome of Stone with more stone, you can't teleport in anyway. I sincerely apologise, I didn’t realize you had “filled” the prismatic sphere with stone. So what-cha going to do as I wait outside, ready-actioned, with psionic contingency waiting to trigger? (after destroying the opposition in round 1) (On killing my familiar and Gated dragons in AMFs, as well as my summons): When are you casting these? On round 1 when my psionic contingency triggered? Not a chance my friend, not a chance. For the 57th time, you CANNOT DIRECTLY AFFECT CREATURES WHILE IN A TEMPORAL ACCELERATION. Also, any AMFs in the area are places that you cannot pass through, nor in any way, shape, or form, affect in any sense. None of your powers (aside from instantaneous creation effects) can pass through an AMF. This includes Touch Sight. Delayed Energy Balls (for example) would also be completely irrelevant. You *might* be able to kill my familiar, but you're going to have to be tossing out a lot of your resources staying alive while you do it. Let me make it more clear for you: (I thought you were smart enough to figure this out) Round 1 (my any circumstances I dictate) my psionic contingency (temporal acceleration) triggers. I’m never shaken cause I have psionic mind blank on. Temporal Acceleration Round 1: I manifest delayed temporal acceleration (3 round delay); move action to re-psi focus. I manifest delayed powers over and over (whatever I feel would be most appropriate to destroy the oppostion). Now, in temporal acceleration round 3 the temporal acceleration effect ends; several delayed powers go off (delayed 3,2,1) including my delayed temporal acceleration. (creatures take damage, and I go back in the loop). Rinse and Repeat. Also, any AMFs in the area are places that you cannot pass through, nor in any way, shape, or form, affect in any sense. You have to get it off first. You *might* be able to kill my familiar, but you're going to have to be tossing out a lot of your resources staying alive while you do it. Not really, even if he does have AMF up, a few quick delayed bend reality (fabricate) powers to drop several heavy objects (from above) on your familiar head and he’s toast. House-ruled limited to 20d6 of course (to stop the exploits). I could make teleportation completely irrelevant, and you have to know right where I am in order for Burrowing Power to work. I wasn’t talking about the burrowing metapsionic power (I apologise). I was referring to coming up beneath your sphere (underground), by disintegrating the floor. And HOW many power points are you burning through while doing this? Assuming that anything you do actually has a chance of affecting me, I've already teleported out of range, How are you teleporting out of range in my temporal acceleration loop? If you do with a contingency, I’ll bend reality to trace teleport and find you, thus destroying you. And yes, it does require a lot of power points. How much XP are you spending on all those gates and simulicrums? So who’s really “winning” here? And how exactly does that work? If you mean that you're taking the next round to manifest Bend Reality, Why, I’m manifesting while in my temporal acceleration loop. (of course) This assuming you’re teleporting or DD by virtue of a contingency. All you're managing to show is that psionics is somehow overpowered when you don't follow the rules. No. What’s actually happening is I am disproving you point by point. And you’ve yet to show me a way to stop it (other than exploits). Are you questioning the validity of psionic contingency (temporal acceleration)? No. Are you able to contend with temporal acceleration loops? No. (the opposition inevitably loses) So...how are you winning exactly? :eek: So...let me get this straight. You're casting magic...to show that psionics...is overpowered on its own? Yeah, that's gonna wash. Completely irrelevant, as it's not psionics at all. And here I thought there might be a shred of intelligence in your arguments, for once. You’re using core items, why can’t I? That’s not very fair. Remember, we get a single buff round. And even if we didn't, I'd likely be turtled up after having taken out the 3 gold dragons (whether by my Shrink Item cheese or by some other -easily doable- means), so your Temporal Acceleration would be a complete waste of power points. Not really, considering you’d be blown up on round 1 (along with anything else. Or are you stating that your round 1 “buff” is time stop (and thus breaking your own rules). If you do anything else other than time stop, in round 1 my psionic contingency triggers starting the temporal acceleration loops. So...you lose. And using 1,000 of my XP is chump change, considering how much I just got from soloing those 3 gold dragons. As is the treasure so my purchased items are also valid. Who wins out now? The above was pretty much how our conversations have gone, thus far. How is this getting us anywhere? Yes, YIDM has responded to some comments, but by no means all of them (he has, in fact, ignored everything that would make all of his arguments invalid). He has even been vaguely polite, at least in tone. His 'debating' skills, however, are manipulative and designed to frustrate, rather than illuminating either side of the debate. And even if they aren't intentional, the result is the same. Sorry I have to spell out every little detail? I figured you’re a pretty smart guy, you’d know the ol’ temporal acceleration loop trick so I didn’t need to go into such detail. Guess I was wrong. That brings up a very, very good question, actually. Let's say YIDM unwisely uses two Temporal Accelerations, thus going to Shaken, then Frightened.Not so – see mind blank for details. :cool: Care to continue to prove yourself wrong as I remove your possibilities of defeating the kineticist one by one or do you give up yet? Your Immortal DM
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:07 PM	Out of curiosity, what is your Psionic Contingency (temporal acceleration) linked too, action-wise? If you link it to Time Stop, then MDJ can tear it down. If you link it to MDJ, then Time Stop can get around it.
crizhII 11-29-06, 05:09 PM	Fear effects stack. If you are shaken you become Frightened. Frightened: Characters who are frightened are shaken, and in addition they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. They can choose the path of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once they are out of sight (or hearing) of the source of their fear, they can act as they want. However, if the duration of their fear continues, characters can be forced to flee once more if the source of their fear presents itself again. Characters unable to flee can fight (though they are still shaken). Add another and you are panicked. Panicked: Characters who are panicked are shaken, and they run away from the source of their fear as quickly as they can. Other than running away from the source, their path is random. They flee from all other dangers that confront them rather than facing those dangers. Panicked characters cower if they are prevented from fleeing. Not that I agree with YIDM at all, in any way. If I had to go up against 3 GW Gold Dragons I'd be immune to fear effects long before they showed up....
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:18 PM	Hmmmm... Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked. Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead. Fear Attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. Temporal acceleration is not a fear attack, nor is it mind-effecting. You still get shaken, unless you become immune to fear another way. Unless you can show how I'm wrong, RAW?
Psychokinetic 11-29-06, 05:19 PM	Go ahead, keep throwing out ridiculous, invalid, and contest-losing strategies. I'm sure it'll keep us all entertained for awhile. Define 'better'. Thus far, you've managed to show that you don't know the psionics ruleset, that a psion casting magic spells is somehow proving that a psion's powers are superior, and that you can 'kill everything in sight' by completely breaking the rules. Nice one there. Lycan :duel: YIDM Lycan :king: :clap: :bow: that I believe is conclusion enough after reading ALL the posts in this thread, more will probably be said by both parties, but I after 7 pages, I think it safe to assume that YIDM will never :surrender ... YIDM, dude the war is lost, move on, get over it. Stick with magic, cause you obviously know and like it. YIDM, it has become painfully obvious in this thread :gah: that you don't know enough about psionics or it's rules to deride psionics as broken from a RAW interpretation. Rock on Lycan! :rimshot:
chiefcastor 11-29-06, 05:23 PM	Hmmmm... Fear Attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. Temporal acceleration is not a fear attack, nor is it mind-effecting. You still get shaken, unless you become immune to fear another way. Unless you can show how I'm wrong, RAW? The subject is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors. I think you are correct. Temporal Acceleration is not a mind effecting power and it is also not a fear attack. Thus mind blank does not stop it's fear effect by RAW.
crizhII 11-29-06, 05:28 PM	Not if it's inside a Prismatic Sphere, it won't. Try finding a way for a psionicist to take down said Sphere without either a Rod of Cancellation or a spell. Not happening. Um, Greater Metamorphosis? There's any number of forms that would let you walk right through a Prismatic Sphere and pound that Wall of Stone to rubble. (Which conveniently puts the Psion on the inside of the Prismatic Sphere and the Summons on the outside.) A thrall Cleric with Earthquake would probably kill you stone dead unless you'd already gone incorporeal. But that's hardly a test of Psionics, is it? Or we drill a hole up through the floor and pump the sealed box you've created full of Quintesence. (You can do rust monster and Gelatinous Cube with normal Metamorphosis.) I don't think the tactic of holing yourself up in a very small space with little chance of escape if things go wrong is a good idea. BTW. What exactly are you using the ring gates for? I'm not sure I quite get that. I kinda feel that at least one of the TA/TS rounds ought to be spent on some type of recon and tactical adjustment rather than just going Nova with huge chunks of your daily spells/pp's. I mean you blow nearly all of your 9th level spells in the first round of pvp, I'm assuming your casting these spells yourself and Twinning the Gates. One Time Hop and all that prep goes to waste... I genuinely believe that your right and that Magic is more abusable but you'll have to do better than that...
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:31 PM	So YIDM now needs to produce something that makes him immune to ALL feat effects (not just mind affecting fear effects, though that does protect him against the Dragons) to make his Linked Temporal Acceleration cheese work. At best, YIDM is using it once for 3 rounds of accelerated action every other round.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:33 PM	Um, Greater Metamorphosis? There's any number of forms that would let you walk right through a Prismatic Sphere and pound that Wall of Stone to rubble. (Which conveniently puts the Psion on the inside of the Prismatic Sphere and the Summons on the outside.) A thrall Cleric with Earthquake would probably kill you stone dead unless you'd already gone incorporeal. But that's hardly a test of Psionics, is it? Or we drill a hole up through the floor and pump the sealed box you've created full of Quintesence. (You can do rust monster and Gelatinous Cube with normal Metamorphosis.) I don't think the tactic of holing yourself up in a very small space with little chance of escape if things go wrong is a good idea. BTW. What exactly are you using the ring gates for? I'm not sure I quite get that. I kinda feel that at least one of the TA/TS rounds ought to be spent on some type of recon and tactical adjustment rather than just going Nova with huge chunks of your daily spells/pp's. I mean you blow nearly all of your 9th level spells in the first round of pvp, I'm assuming your casting these spells yourself and Twinning the Gates. One Time Hop and all that prep goes to waste... I genuinely believe that your right and that Magic is more abusable but you'll have to do better than that... How is a 20th level kineticist using Greater Metamorphosis? As a power stone?
crizhII 11-29-06, 05:34 PM	Hmmmm... Fear Attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. Temporal acceleration is not a fear attack, nor is it mind-effecting. You still get shaken, unless you become immune to fear another way. Unless you can show how I'm wrong, RAW? That's slicing it pretty thin. By that logic Constructs, Undead, Vermin etc can be Shaken so long as it wasn't caused by an 'attack.' I never suggested using Mind Blank BTW, you just assumed it. The fact remains that it is possible to be immune to fear and any Psion planning to use TA would certainly find a way....
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 05:36 PM	At no point have you included an action for manifesting mind blank No you assume psionics is broken houserules, you have yet to prove anything Looping Temporal acceleration isn't a problem. Delay power costs focus so you aren't putting out many delayed powers, And you have no proof that you are even hitting someone untill you end the loop and let damage hit. For all you know you just wasted a programmed image, a simulacrum, or a disguise checked kobold. Well, considering a gold dragon has 717 hp on average, spell resistance 33, and 19th level caster abilities, lets assume your character isn't a complete idiot and uses energy bolt or missle or some other affect that can deal 20d6+20 points of cold damage. (x2). First off 50-65% of those will fail from spell resistance, more fail from saves, but lets say you get them all off and they fail saving throws. thats say about 180 points of cold damage, say an even 200 thats 100-130 points of damage after you break spell resistance (assuming) that the dragon didn't first cast spell turning on himself. so 6-7 manifestations in two-three maxed out TA's. Thats roughly 177-197 pp per dragon about 75-83% of your total pp per day before you even fight the wizard..... Do you even know how fabricate works? you are so off base its humorous Disintegrate, ah yes another 22 pp at minumum gone. As for core items, don't be dense, you should have the wit to see the flaws in you "why can't it use them argument" Really, now what is this silly contingincy of yours that is yet unstated but can react to anything. "when i exist activate temporal acceleration"?
crizhII 11-29-06, 05:37 PM	How is a 20th level kineticist using Greater Metamorphosis? As a power stone? Psychic Chirurgy? A Thrall? Personally I'd use an Erudite, but that's just me.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:39 PM	That's slicing it pretty thin. By that logic Constructs, Undead, Vermin etc can be Shaken so long as it wasn't caused by an 'attack.' I never suggested using Mind Blank BTW, you just assumed it. The fact remains that it is possible to be immune to fear and any Psion planning to use TA would certainly find a way.... Sliced thin, but can you list anything that can target a construct that isn't a fear attack? Also, the Mind Blank was what YIDM suggested could stop the Temporal Acceleration shaken effect. He was wrong. Are there other ways to become immune to fear? Absolutely. Has he accounted for any of them? No.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:40 PM	Psychic Chirurgy? A Thrall? Personally I'd use an Erudite, but that's just me. I wasn't aware that an Erudite could learn a 9th level discipline power.
crizhII 11-29-06, 05:41 PM	I wasn't aware that an Erudite could learn a 9th level discipline power. Sorry, I meant I would prefer an Erudite over a Kineticist, he would still have to pay for Psychic Chirurgy though...
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:43 PM	I would prefer a lot of things over a kineticist. As much as blasting can be a blast (chortle), there are numerous other things that can be much more effective in helping a party overcome its obstacles.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 05:47 PM	At no point have you included an action for manifesting mind blank No you assume psionics is broken houserules, you have yet to prove anything Looping Temporal acceleration isn't a problem. Delay power costs focus so you aren't putting out many delayed powers, And you have no proof that you are even hitting someone untill you end the loop and let damage hit. For all you know you just wasted a programmed image, a simulacrum, or a disguise checked kobold. Well, considering a gold dragon has 717 hp on average, spell resistance 33, and 19th level caster abilities, lets assume your character isn't a complete idiot and uses energy bolt or missle or some other affect that can deal 20d6+20 points of cold damage. (x2). First off 50-65% of those will fail from spell resistance, more fail from saves, but lets say you get them all off and they fail saving throws. thats say about 180 points of cold damage, say an even 200 thats 100-130 points of damage after you break spell resistance (assuming) that the dragon didn't first cast spell turning on himself. so 6-7 manifestations in two-three maxed out TA's. Thats roughly 177-197 pp per dragon about 75-83% of your total pp per day before you even fight the wizard..... Do you even know how fabricate works? you are so off base its humorous Disintegrate, ah yes another 22 pp at minumum gone. As for core items, don't be dense, you should have the wit to see the flaws in you "why can't it use them argument" Really, now what is this silly contingincy of yours that is yet unstated but can react to anything. "when i exist activate temporal acceleration"? Remember, Lycan isn't gating in normal Gold Dragons, but rather Celestial Gold Dragons. This means that its spell resistance isn't 33, it is HD +5, or 46. I'm fairly sure this is almost entirely impossible for a 20th level core kineticist to breach. If it isn't, it's damn near close.
Psionx 11-29-06, 05:51 PM	The subject is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors. Psionic mind blank even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it (however, metafaculty can pierce the protective quality of psionic mind blank). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area the creature is in, the effect works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing (scrying) attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. powers. with. the. mind-affecting. descriptor Powers - Manifested by psions and cost power points with - in this case showing relation the - showing a specific case mind-affecting - A mind-affecting power works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.* descriptor - Appearing on the same line as the discipline and subdiscipline (when applicable) is a descriptor that further categorizes the power in some way. Some powers have more than one descriptor. Fear is a spell with the mind affecting descriptor, Temporal Acceleration is not. * YIDM may not want to read this No really, open if you want to be insulted if you are YIDM Seriously, I don't like insulting ppl, but if YIDM opens this it's fair game Disclaimer: It's more of a joke at his expense, but I don't really mean it. I guess he wouldn't even need mind blank as he already has an intelligence score of 1 or lower
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 06:02 PM	Even at max posible efficiency (2d6+2 dmg [9]/[1]pp) he's using ~237 pp Per Dragon (assuming the dragons fail all thier saves even!*) to "blast" them At that rate he cannot kill three dragons with 473 pp (and thats giving him 4 damage per dice rather than 3.5) (remember that at manifester level 20 + d20 he only hits 33 40% of the time at most.) *edit* ouch, celestial gold dragons. 40d6+40 points of cold damage for 20 pp with a sop for this farce 40*4+40 200 Points of Cold damage per 20 pp So 20/1 ratio 20+1d20 is at most 40.....hmm add on power penetration (using two foci per casting lets say god comes down and grants it. lets also say that he allows power resistance to negate % of damage rather than all of it.) 48+ Psionatrix for 49 so 29+1d20 16/17/18/19/20 or 25 % chance to break resistance, so 395 pp per dragon. Hmm so hop on over to tornado blast 28 d6 for 20 pp so about 98[3.5]-112[4] damage on average so 8-7 manifestations to kill the dragon needing 3 full accelerations so 197-217 pp per dragon so 45-41% of your pp for the day per dragon
Your Immortal DM 11-29-06, 06:04 PM	So… Shaken A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked. Frightened A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear. Panicked A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened. And finally... :P All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked. Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead. So ergo, shaken is a fear effect, and fear effects are mind-affecting. If the shaken affect somehow “isn’t” a fear effect then it doesn’t stack, cause only fear effects stack (and you don’t need mind blank). So which is it? Is it not a fear effect so the shaken doesn't stack or is it a fear effect making it mind-affecting??? Psychokinetic - nice emotes; sadly despite they’re well coordinated nature, your statement of opinion is just that, and opinion (just like everyone else’s). Far as I’m concerned, I’ve far from lost, in fact I’m beginning to gain ground here. I hope more people see this thread so they too can begin to uncover how some psionic things are clearly unbalanced. We already accept that some magic things are exploitable (that I’ve never argued), but many here have sated that psionics is “just fine” as is, and has no exploits. (barring 1 or 2 exceptions which have yet to be named). This is the fallacy that I am attempting to disprove with my kineticist build vs. an evoker. Heck, this build would work to disprove almost any wizard build, but I figured the kineticist is most similar to the evoker so it’s the “best” to compare it to. At no point have you included an action for manifesting mind blank Uh? It lasts all day, why wouldn’t I have it on? If you had read my build, you’ll note that its on. No you assume psionics is broken houserules, you have yet to prove anything An infinite loop of temporal acceleration death and destruction doesn’t prove anything? What will you accept as “proof?” Well, considering a gold dragon has 717 hp on average, spell resistance 33, and 19th level caster abilities, lets assume your character isn't a complete idiot and uses energy bolt or missle or some other affect that can deal 20d6+20 points of cold damage.Sadly, delayed tornado blasts are SR: No and dragons have bad Reflex saves. Throw enough of those and they’ll ALL die pretty fast. Remember, Lycan isn't gating in normal Gold Dragons, but rather Celestial Gold Dragons. This means that its spell resistance isn't 33, it is HD +5, or 46. Celesital creature SR caps at 25 there buddy, try again. Care to refute my points now??? Your Immortal DM
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 06:05 PM	Hmmm... The Kineticist has the following powers that have PR: no that effect other creatures... 1. Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon: 7th level power, save DC 17 + modifier, or for Gouda, 29. 2. Tornado Blast: 9th level power, Save DC 19 +1 delayed and fully augmented +12 modifier = 32. Our Celestial Great Wyrm Gold Dragon has a base reflex save of only 22, which means that about 1/3 of the time, our unbuffed dragon will be cocooned. Half the time, the gold dragon will take only half the piddly 19d6 damage the tornado blast os doing, though one of the dragons is very likely to take that extra 8d6. Whoops, did I mention that Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon can't effect a collossal creature? This means the only thing our psion can do to directly damage the great wyrm is to do, at best, 27d6 damage per 21 pp used (average 94.5, while he might only be doing only 8d6 +(19d6/2), for an average of 61 damage. That averages out to approximately 78 damage a round. It will average out to be 9.2 rounds of delayed Tornado Blasts to kill a single celestial gold wyrm. Any other gold wyrms will still have an average of 252 HP left.
Nephlite 11-29-06, 06:07 PM	Personal mind blank stops mind-affecting effects & SRD says: All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. Can you prove that my DMG and SRD say nothing like that. In the SRD under special condirions and abilities: FEAR Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. In most cases, the character makes a Will saving throw to resist this effect, and a failed roll means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked. But the power allows no save so that will save part doesn't apply. Your reaching. Most Fear effects are mind affecting, but nothing says all are.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 06:08 PM	Answer these question with a straight face. Is Temporal Acceleration a FEAR ATTACK, or a FEAR EFFECT? Is Temporal Acceleration a mind-effecting power, or a non-mind-effecting power?
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 06:18 PM	Preface: I didn't see the 25 SR cap for Celestial. My bad. 1. If you're using Energy Missle attacks, you have 3 viable damage-dealing options. Cold: Fortitude for half, 20d6 +20 (Average damage 90) Electricity: Reflex for half, +2 to save DC, 20d6 (Average damage 70) Fire: Immune Sonic: Reflex for half, 20d6 -20 (Average damage 50) If you use cold effects, you're going against a base save of 33. The Save DC for your energy missile is 41. You're doing full damage about a third of the time, averaging 60 damage per manifestation. This translates into 90 damage per manifestation due to cold vulnerability. If you're using electricity, you're going against a base save of 22. The save DC for your energy missile os 43. You're doing full damage pretty much every time, for an average of 70 damage per manifestation. Sonic is so suboptimal in this case, I won't even mention it. This means, by the way, that to kill A group of Gold Dragons, you're using not only the temporal accelerations (which, RAW, WILL make you shaken and WILL stack with each other in terms of panick, etc), but also an average of 11 20 pp maifestations of Energy Missile. 220 power points +44 for 4 Temporal Accelerations to defeat a few Gated minions. And that doesn't take into account them, oh, putting Anti-Magic Field up after the first 3 delayed energy missiles hit (the first Temporal Acceleration) or 6, if you're using two and taking the "panicked" aspect as a price to pay to not quite-kill your targets. Edit: Feel free to add damage to these by putting on, say, Empower or Maximize. Congrats, you ain't made of psionic focuses, and you're already using Delay Power to use one of em. Second Edit: Silly me, we still haven't even accounted for the base SR of our Celestial Gold Dragons. This means that around half the time, you're not even going to AFFECT those Gold Dragons with Energy Missile. This would mean it would require approximately 22 manifestations of Energy Missile to take down these Gold Dragons gated in. Heh. hehehe. HAHAHAHAHAHAH. You just spent 22 rounds and 440 power points to kill a few minions that cost 1000 xp each. You now have 25 pp to deal with an enraptured wizard watching you spend 90% of your wad dealing with a few 9th level slots.
Psychokinetic 11-29-06, 06:28 PM	So… Psychokinetic - nice emotes; sadly despite they’re well coordinated nature, your statement of opinion is just that, and opinion (just like everyone else’s). Far as I’m concerned, I’ve far from lost, in fact I’m beginning to gain ground here. Your Immortal DM Yup, that post is still my opinion. (I thought the emotes might keep things more light hearted!) (I did say YIDM would never :surrender ) Congrats though on getting to 8 pages!
Friendlyfish 11-29-06, 06:28 PM	Just a quick comment. I find it amusing that the litmus test is between 20th level psions and 20th level wizards. Most games are played at lower levels. I'm not saying that psions are broken, or wizards are broken...but in the normal camp range (5-15...?) I've done a lot of sick stuff with a telepath and the psionic attack forms (ego whip, id insin., psionic blast) and dominations (charm and dominate). Wizards have the dominates themselves, but they're not as easily used because they have to be prepared, or if a sorceror, they don't get as many per day or as flexibly. For disabling things that are mind-affected, I can't think of a better fellow to have in your party than the psion. I admit freely that with 9th level spells, the unholy pentad of mage spells (PaO, Gate, MKD, Time Stop, Shapechange) are all frankly broken. If the wizard's power rests on those spells, I think anything you make with arcane is busted and will dominate the battlefield with impunity. Most camps I've played in (only a few that reached high levels, or a few one-shots) had strict houserules about those spells because they broke the game.
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 06:29 PM	So basically as previously stated 717 hp per dragon 98-112 average damage per manifestation 8-7 manifestations to kill Needing Three maxed out temporal accelerations 8-7 manifestations for 20pp is 160-140pp Add in three temporal accelerations 3*19= 57 197-217pp out of 473 pp for each dragon
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 06:31 PM	So basically as previously stated 717 hp per dragon 98-112 average damage per manifestation 8-7 manifestations to kill Needing Three maxed out temporal accelerations 8-7 manifestations for 20pp is 160-140pp Add in three temporal accelerations 3*19= 57 197-217pp out of 473 pp for each dragon Where is the 112 average damage even coming from?
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 06:37 PM	Tornado Blast 17pp (8d6 +17d6) 20pp (8d6 +20d6) Assume they fail the saves 25d6 or 28d6 28*3 28*3.5 28*4 84/98/112 I'm tossing in an extra .5 dmg as a sop.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 06:38 PM	That depends on who you ask. A mind blank and a loop of temporal accelerations is a real balance issue. Or don’t you think so? Linked temporal acceleration loops is a real issue in BBEG fights (climax of adventures, etc. etc.), since the party knows they’ll be resting later.While Temporal Acceleration loops are potentially powerful, they're also horrifically expensive. It's also subject to quite a few stipulations, such as the inability to directly affect any of your opponents. Looped Time Stops are just as dangerous, and can be done as well (not that you'd need to, given some of a wizard's other options that psions don't have). It is an 'advantage' that a psion has over a wizard. One of very, very few, and very expensive to boot. Also, "later" is a subjective term, in this case. They have no idea if they'll actually be able to get out after destroying the BBEG, or not. What happens if the BBEG escapes, then has minions teleport in afterwards? You cannot guarantee (as a player) that you'll ever get the chance to do so. Thus, that is a completely invalid argument. You’ll note my kineticist build has a cloak of etherealnessWhich is blocked by both my Prismatic Sphere AND my Dimensional Anchor. Doesn't matter, especially since my summons and such are hitting you with Magic Missiles and other force effects. And if you decide to argue that you're Timeless Bodied while doing so, that means that you can't be ethereal unless you're naturally so. So what-cha going to do as I wait outside, ready-actioned, with psionic contingency waiting to trigger? (after destroying the opposition in round 1)Assuming that you somehow managed to destroy my summonables without breaking the rules, I can still cast through the Ring Gates, y'know. And if all else fails, I can simply summon more things through the Ring Gates to continue the assault. Meanwhile, you're draining power points like a sieve. Otherwise, I could set myself up for another Time-Stop + Super Summoning session, leaving you to deal with more opponents than before. I could also be doing various other tactics (such as Time-Stop + Gate, with an AMF readed when I get my familiar right next to you, then sic my dragons after you, or any of a number of spells that will still work through an AMF - such as Telekinesis). I still have myriad options, here. When are you casting these? On round 1 when my psionic contingency triggered? Not a chance my friend, not a chance.I can still be casting inside of the turtle shell (that, like as not, you CANNOT breach), so continue running around while TA'd all you want. You still can't get to me. And I can abuse Time-Stop as badly as you can abuse Temporal Acceleration, so that's no longer even a point of contention. Let me make it more clear for you: (I thought you were smart enough to figure this out) Round 1 (my any circumstances I dictate) my psionic contingency (temporal acceleration) triggers. I’m never shaken cause I have psionic mind blank on. Temporal Acceleration Round 1: I manifest delayed temporal acceleration (3 round delay); move action to re-psi focus. I manifest delayed powers over and over (whatever I feel would be most appropriate to destroy the oppostion). Now, in temporal acceleration round 3 the temporal acceleration effect ends; several delayed powers go off (delayed 3,2,1) including my delayed temporal acceleration. (creatures take damage, and I go back in the loop). Rinse and Repeat.And you're still bleeding power points, using a metapsionic feat that takes away from any and all augmentation that you might have (including DCs). Dragons especially have SR (which takes out the vast majority of possibilities, excellent saving throws (which takes care of the ones that SR doesn't), and a very high AC (which should take care of the rest). Don't forget that you can't manifest Banishment while TA'd, unless you're Delaying it, which decreases your DC. And if you do hit my two Ring-Gated dragons with Banishment, they have those two Rings of Spell Turning, don't forget. Like as not, the only recourse you'll have is Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon (which is eminently dispellable), by me. Ultimately, it's up to exactly what powers you choose to toss out, whether or not they actually affect the creatures in the first place, and whether or not their resistances would defend them. And should you succeed at taking them all down, I'm still in the better position, and you're out there and rather vulnerable. Not really, even if he does have AMF up, a few quick delayed bend reality (fabricate) powers to drop several heavy objects (from above) on your familiar head and he’s toast. House-ruled limited to 20d6 of course (to stop the exploits).You can't you Fabricate into midair, as the Fabricated goods are just transmuted into another form. You'd have to manually teleport the goods into midair for that to work at all. And in any case, who said that my familiar was out there on round 1? I keep my little pseudodragon (from the Improved Familiar feat) in reserve for a round, send him out, cast AMF on him, then I'd have him do his level best to keep within 10' of you at all times, delaying his actions until your initiative, if he had to. I wasn’t talking about the burrowing metapsionic power (I apologise). I was referring to coming up beneath your sphere (underground), by disintegrating the floor.And I could collapse your tunnel pretty easily by using Stone Shape or Stone to Mud, or so on. Or, my summons could get you (as some could burrow, or be incorporeal, etc). How are you teleporting out of range in my temporal acceleration loop? If you do with a contingency, I’ll bend reality to trace teleport and find you, thus destroying you. And yes, it does require a lot of power points. How much XP are you spending on all those gates and simulicrums? So who’s really “winning” here?For one, YOU CANNOT DIRECTLY AFFECT CREATURES WHILE TEMPORALLY ACCELERATING. If I say that enough times, maybe you'll actually see it. And if you think I'm teleporting while you are, remember that your Delayed powers don't come into play until after, which means that my Contingency effect is just fine. As far as Detect Teleport, fine, go ahead. Assuming you can reliably get to me in the first place, and I teleport away, you can Detect Teleport to see where I went. Assuming it went as follows: You reach me (move action) and manifest something that gets through my protections (standard action) (assuming that I didn't move in my previous turn when I saw that you could manifest something next round), my Contingency fires off, sending me underground. You use your immediate action to manifest Temporal Acceleration, then manifest Detect Teleportation to see where I've gone (underground). You use your next turn to move to where I went, then manifest Psionic Disintegration. Which, incidentally, fails, as that 5' space is considered 'attended,' since I'm in it. What now? And how exactly does that work? If you mean that you're taking the next round to manifest Bend Reality,Why, I’m manifesting while in my temporal acceleration loop. (of course) This assuming you’re teleporting or DD by virtue of a contingency.What are you using Bend Reality *for*? You manifest Bend Reality to manifest Detect Teleportation. Why? Is it to put up a Contingency? Again, why? I haven't teleported thus far, so why would you put up a Contingency before the fight, or during one of your previous rounds? And if you're using BR to manifest Contingency in your Temporal Acceleration rounds, what good does it do after I've already teleported away? That "answer" makes no sense, frankly. No. What’s actually happening is I am disproving you point by point. And you’ve yet to show me a way to stop it (other than exploits). You're 'disproving me' by putting up strategies that are breaking the rules, and thus, DO. NOT. WORK. As far as 'exploits' go, what exploits? Name off everything that I've done so far that has gone against either RAW and RAI (aside from, possibly, the granite-cannon). C'mon. Do it. Show how I'm breaking the rules. I'm casting spells intelligently. I'm casting the way that a good wizard should cast, as I'm using my wizard's brain (ie, supra-genius, uber Int score) to think about the situation and act accordingly, rather than just casting Fireball, or Cone of Cold, or Quickened True Strike + Polar Ray. By the way, how are you using both Timeless Body AND Temporal Acceleration at the same time? Since TA affects you, and not the world around you, Timeless Body invalidates it. Just curious. Are you questioning the validity of psionic contingency (temporal acceleration)? No.Of course not. What I'm questioning (in fact, flat out denying) is the validity and wisdom of the tactics you're using during those rounds spent in Time Stop. Are you able to contend with temporal acceleration loops? No. (the opposition inevitably loses)You haven't reached me yet. While you're frantically running around in your own little time-frame, bleeding power points out the ears, I'm sitting in my nice little cubby-hole, conserving resources. So...how are you winning exactly?Making you bleed yourself dry seems like a good option, at this point. Keep in mind, you don't have infinite numbers of Temporal Acceleration manifestations, here. And I have enough castings of Time Stop to do something very, very, very similar to yours (but I don't have to; see my previous strategies for details). Keep in mind that in a real face-off, you'd have no idea what I was up to in that little bubble of mine, and thus you'd be bleeding power points and actions trying to teleport in, burrow under using Metamorphosis, and so on. Meanwhile, I'm casting spells *in addition* to what my friends are doing. So it's not nearly as cut and dry as you want to make it seem. You’re using core items, why can’t I? That’s not very fair. I'm using items that I've created using my own class abilities that mimic my own spellcasting abilities. You're using items that mimic MY spellcasting abilities, not your own, that you had to buy off of another spellcaster so you could emulate his abilities. There's just a teensy bit of difference there, don'tcha think? Not really, considering you’d be blown up on round 1 (along with anything else. Or are you stating that your round 1 “buff” is time stop (and thus breaking your own rules).If we're taking a buff round prior to the fight, the effects are the same. If we are suddenly transported into a situation where both of us just got finished with the dragons in the exact shape we left off at, the effects are the same - with or without a buff-round. If everything we did buff-wise during the dragon-fight is suddenly nullified and we don't get a buff-round, the one with higher initiative wins the battle (except for a very, very lucky save), which proves nothing about who can do what. You're basically trying to make a case for "Bang! You're dead!" without substantiation. I've countered everything you've done thus far (either with pointing out that the rules don't work that way, or by taking steps in-game), so you're no farther along than when you started. Without seeing how these mechanics play out in an actual duel, nothing is going to be resolved. Just a bunch of posturing without the aforesaid substantiation. And using 1,000 of my XP is chump change, considering how much I just got from soloing those 3 gold dragons.As is the treasure so my purchased items are also valid. Who wins out now?What treasure? Were the dragons suddenly Gated in and released with their hoards in tow? I don't remember *that* being a part of the contest. Doesn't work. The above was pretty much how our conversations have gone, thus far. How is this getting us anywhere? Yes, YIDM has responded to some comments, but by no means all of them (he has, in fact, ignored everything that would make all of his arguments invalid). He has even been vaguely polite, at least in tone. His 'debating' skills, however, are manipulative and designed to frustrate, rather than illuminating either side of the debate. And even if they aren't intentional, the result is the same.Sorry I have to spell out every little detail? I figured you’re a pretty smart guy, you’d know the ol’ temporal acceleration loop trick so I didn’t need to go into such detail. Guess I was wrong.This comment was in response to our 'debates' as a whole, and was not directly in response to your not 'spelling out every little detail.' Ignoring something we just posted from the SRD to point out that your combinations won't work, and that your arguments are flawed, and forging ahead with your 'Psionics is broken and magic isn't!' campaign using those same arguments that we just pointed out were flawed is the type of thing that I was referring to. Care to continue to prove yourself wrong as I remove your possibilities of defeating the kineticist one by one or do you give up yet? Not really, as you're assisting the rest of us in showing our own points off so much better than if you actually had some reasonable ground to complain from. In any case, I AM getting tired of the back-and-forth ramblings, as both of us could obviously keep this going forever, with us telling you what you're doing wrong, and you telling us that psionics is broken regardless of how hard you have to fudge the rules to break it. It's getting old, YIDM. So, either stick to my original plan, and show me your 'killer psion' in action, or come up with some better complaints, because this grows tiresome.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 06:38 PM	To Lokiyn - Thats a bad assumption, since against a Tornado Blast, as I showed, they'd be saving for 1/2 about, oh, 1/2 the time.
johnkretzer 11-29-06, 06:45 PM	Personal mind blank stops mind-affecting effects & SRD says: All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. So no dice there guys, try again. Then you don't have schism. It is a mind affecting effect after all. Mind Block stops it. It is called a Drawback to the spell/power. You can't lower it. Because it doesn't say so in the description. Also like I said before you are argueing the silliest thing. There is very little difference between 1244 Damage and 849. Also in answear to your who would I rather have in my group. The answear is simple the evoker. Why? You might ask. It is simple. A evoker can ID all the parties items in a day. The psion will take x days where x is = to the number of magic/psionic items.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 06:47 PM	Have either of you statted out what you'd be doing against the 3 angry Gold Dragons yet? Lokiyn and I have statted out the difficulty our psion friend would have killing gold dragons (given our damage numbers, it would take him a minimum of, oh, probably 11 rounds to kill all 3 gold dragons if they did absolutely NOTHING but sit there absorbing damage. Dragons don't generally do that. I haven't seen your strategy for taking out those dragons yet, Lycan... What is your plan/method, considering you'll want to save at least a Time Stop and Gate or two for your battle with the psion?
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 06:53 PM	To Lokiyn - Thats a bad assumption, since against a Tornado Blast, as I showed, they'd be saving for 1/2 about, oh, 1/2 the time. That just bumps it to 12-10 Manifestations for 4 rounds of Time stop so about 316pp-276pp-237pp Per Dragon
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 06:57 PM	If these are being used during the temporal acceleration, by the way, they'll also need to be delayed, which means the psion is taking 3d8 damage each time to actually attain 20d6 AoE damage with the Tornado Blast due to Overchanneling damage (which can't be negated by Talented, since it is a 9th level power). That means his Vigor (whose manifesting he hasn't accounted for yet) is going to have to absorb 33d8 to 36d8 damage, or 148 to 162 overchannel damage. That means, at a minimum, another Temporal Acceleration and 30 pp worth of vigor.
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 07:09 PM	Mirrors of opposition or Life trapping will take care of the angry dragons.
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 07:22 PM	That'd be a minimum of 92k for both of them in terms of expenditures. A good point, though. An extremely angry dragon might ignore the cloned dragon temporarily, or can at least be enough of a threat that psion or wizard will need to expend at least SOMETHING else to deal with the threat even a besieged Gold Dragon can present. The Mirror of Life Trapping, on the other hand, is actually essentially useless against Gold Dragons. A Gold Dragon's base will save is 33, which means even if you lower its will save by 10, it still only fails on a 1.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 07:30 PM	I haven't seen your strategy for taking out those dragons yet, Lycan... What is your plan/method, considering you'll want to save at least a Time Stop and Gate or two for your battle with the psion?For one, I would turtle up as I had mentioned for the fight with the psion (draining my self-made Rods of Absorption that I specifically filled up *well* before hand with spell-levels). This should take, at most, a single Rod's worth. As far as Gating critters goes, it would depend on what the answers to the following would be: 1.) Were the dragons Gated in? Were they teleported? Were they summoned? Were they indestructibly-forcecaged or somehow otherwise confined, and immediately set loose? 2.) If they are Gated, teleported, or summoned, do I know from which directions they're coming from? Are they all coming from the same portal, or are they in different areas? 3.) Am I allowed to utilize the Shrink Item + Telekinesis combo? It IS perfectly legal, after all. 4.) What, exactly, are the conditions for the transition to the next encounter? Does everything reset except for our resources used, or are we plopped down right in the middle of things the very next round? Do we get a buff-round, or not? 5.) Do we get XP immediately after killing the dragons? Depending on the answers to these questions, there are a number of things I can do. One, is if the Shrink Item + Telekinesis trick works. I'd just Shapechange into something immune to fear, go out there, and pummel the dragons into oblivion. This is, far and away, the easiest way to go. Second, is if they're all somehow being Gated in through the same Gate spell (epic level, perhaps?), is to open a transport-Gate right in front of it, to shunt them into some other plane. Just the cost of a 9th-level slot, no XP. Third, if the first two obviously won't work, but they're being summoned in, and are considered extraplanar, perhaps pull out a couple of Gated critters to keep them busy, then start either stat-draining them using my no-save ranged touch attacks (or touch attacks using Spectral Hand) with some Quickened True Strikes mixed in, or try for Banishment - and yes, I did buy an unholy symbol for this purpose, and I plan on having (Greater) Spell Focus Abjuration AND Conjuration, and at least one Rod of Cancellation that I made myself. Heck, I can just Gate in some creatures that Gate in more creatures (which is perfectly fine, RAW). If all advantages gained during the first session are completely nullified before being instantaneously debuffed and transported elsewhere, I'll obviously ration my reserves a bit more. But if I immediately gain the XP from taking out those dragons, I'm going to Gate, Gate, Gate, Gate (amongst other things).
crizhII 11-29-06, 07:30 PM	Have either of you statted out what you'd be doing against the 3 angry Gold Dragons yet? Lokiyn and I have statted out the difficulty our psion friend would have killing gold dragons (given our damage numbers, it would take him a minimum of, oh, probably 11 rounds to kill all 3 gold dragons if they did absolutely NOTHING but sit there absorbing damage. Dragons don't generally do that. I haven't seen your strategy for taking out those dragons yet, Lycan... What is your plan/method, considering you'll want to save at least a Time Stop and Gate or two for your battle with the psion? TA x3 Buff (the usual suspects) Greater Metamorphosis - Will o Wisp Go invisible D Door out of range of True Sight (120') 15 Collossal +1 Adamantine, Unholy, Dragonbane Javelins. Telekinetic Thrust. Preferably in the form of a headband (or whatever) to use at will, not too expensive, you could even quicken it and use it as a Swift action. 120d6+45 per round. Avg 535hp per round. Unless you do two...
Ornedan 11-29-06, 07:53 PM	Now we’re getting somewhere. More actuarely…magic is broken without houserules and psionics is broken without houserules. That I’ll agree with. Actually what I said was lets get rid of exploits/loopholes and then compare. Problem really is who will be definining an exploit? I’m pretty sure that a “majority” would agree that 100,000+ damage for a 2nd level spell is probably an exploit.It would been nice of you to actually state that you also consider magic overpowered when whining about psionics being overpowered. Even nicer would have been something along the lines of Hi. I think standard magic is too powerfull, so I made these tweaks to it. What aspects of psionics should I change to reduce it's power equally? instead of your The purpose comparison is to once again, attempt to show how psionics are overpowered with a realistic model. As such, you are in fact trolling, by making a dishonest argument. So please either start over with an honest argument or shut up. (And no, the "realistic model" bit in the above does not count, seeing as you never actually defined what it means in this particular case).
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 07:57 PM	That, and the model wasn't anywhere *close* to realistic. Nobody who had any idea of what he was doing would make a build like that.
lears_fool 11-29-06, 08:01 PM	And here we hit the crux of it. We have plenty of scenarios that never play out when you're actually PLAYING D&D and slowly climb up to the realms of absurdity. Comparing classes based on any sort of arena comparison is an exercise in futility, as it's an intellectual game that's barely related to the play of the classes they represent.
tacoronte 11-29-06, 08:15 PM	Wizo_Paradox, Please have this thread locked. I know it is very hard to determine intent on written word, but if you read the OP and the subsequet posts that debunk every line of the first post, it is pretty obvious that his intent is baiting: he fails to reply to very valid points made to refute his analysis, on the other hand he posts lengthy diatribes to comments that will further his baiting purpose. I had refrained from posting on this thread to avoid bumping it to the top. However today, once again, I find it in the top 3. To be honest, it is pretty tiring to come in day in and day out and find this thread amongst the top 10 (without any significant information added). And if Wizo doesn't lock it, Guys and Gals *please* stop bumping this thread up. This thread, as 99% of responders have pointed out, does not contribute to the community at all. If you want to do an arena fight, open a thread on the CharOp boards; If you want to further discuss a specific point, open a new thread with as narrow a topic as possible such that a productive discussion can occur. Please let this thread die pretty please.
Diplominator 11-29-06, 08:15 PM	Okay, please. Enough with the hostility. Particularily the accusations of "trolling." I don't think YIDM is right. I think that Psionics has a few problems, but it is balanced overall and direct damage isn't one of those problems. I don't think that his model is at all accurate and I think that he's allowed his bias to skew his objectivity. I also think that the Psionics board has acted overly hostile to him. Simply being wrong does not make one a Troll. If you want to see a troll go to the optimization challenge boards and read the threads begun by Oppo28. I think that the denizens of the Psionics board have also allowed themselves to be biased, and you've treated YIDM rather harshly. Psionics does have flaws, and it is very good at dealing direct damage in novas. And, believe it or not, that can affect game balance. True, an optimized wizard can do it too, and better, but that's also bad. Saying or even proving that something is really bad does not make a less bad thing okay. It makes it less bad. Which leads to my view on balance. If a character makes all the other characters in the party feel unnecessary, that's bad, and there's no way around it. However, what constitutes unnecessary will vary from game to game, with how the other players feel about being sidelined while the Psion (or Wizard!) novas. If the DM can make them feel useful while the Psion is spent, and fun is had, then the system is fine. If not, then that's very bad, but...that's kinda what a DM is for. If he can't do that, you probably aren't having much fun to begin with. /Rambling Dang. That started out as a simple "lighten up." I guess I had a lot to say.
Your Immortal DM 11-29-06, 08:39 PM	While Temporal Acceleration loops are potentially powerful, they're also horrifically expensive. It's also subject to quite a few stipulations, such as the inability to directly affect any of your opponents. How do you figure? If your oppositions dead before they even get to act, seems like a good use of resources to me. (and a serious game balance issue) For the measly cost of 2 power points and a feat, we can delay any AoE or personal power; also pretty good if you ask me. (using supplemental material it costs a 3 level increase for wizards ~ 6 power point equivilant) It is an 'advantage' that a psion has over a wizard. Yup…one of many…one of many. (and some have argued that its to the point of over-poweredness) Also, "later" is a subjective term, in this case. They have no idea if they'll actually be able to get out after destroying the BBEG, or not. What happens if the BBEG escapes, then has minions teleport in afterwards? You cannot guarantee (as a player) that you'll ever get the chance to do so.Perhaps you haven’t run in many modules (usually there is a big fight at the end, after which the players rest). Generally they know when its coming too. The temporal acceleration problem just gets worse as the CRs go up. Eventually nothing within 8 CR’s can handle a psion willing to “blow his wad”. How is that a good idea for game balance? Which is blocked by both my Prismatic Sphere AND my Dimensional Anchor. Doesn't matter, especially since my summons and such are hitting you with Magic Missiles and other force effects. The summoned minions have to act before hurting me which they won’t cause they’ll be dead. If I feel generious and allow them to live, I can be a mile away out of sight ethereal, and wait their durations out (which is only 21 rounds ~ 2 minutes). See, I can run your resources out too, if we care to play that game... Assuming that you somehow managed to destroy my summonables without breaking the rules, I can still cast through the Ring Gates, y'know. Which fall to the ground once your gated friends leave 21 rounds later. Bye! Thanks for playing. And if all else fails, I can simply summon more things through the Ring Gates to continue the assault. At 1,000 XP per pop, be my guest, we’ll see how long it takes them to find me. See, I can turtle too... (what is this proving again?) Meanwhile, you're draining power points like a sieve. If I felt so inclined to destroy them, I could, yes. Its probably a better tactic to wait it out, since your gate is so limited. Otherwise, I could set myself up for another Time-Stop + Super Summoning session, leaving you to deal with more opponents than before. And this proves what, if I choose to turtle as well? (you can't get me, I can't get you? Congrats! you've prove nothing, then agian, neither have I) I could also be doing various other tactics (such as Time-Stop + Gate, with an AMF readed when I get my familiar right next to you, then sic my dragons after you, or any of a number of spells that will still work through an AMF - such as Telekinesis).And my psicrystal’s got my back (with a ready action) to teleport me away if he sees your familiar with touchsight. That of course assumes he can find me ethereal below the ground. (which he can’t) I can still be casting inside of the turtle shell (that, like as not, you CANNOT breach), so continue running around while TA'd all you want. And I can abuse Time-Stop as badly as you can abuse Temporal Acceleration, so that's no longer even a point of contention. Actually you haven’t shown me so it is a point of contention. But…I know there are ways. (quite easy actually) Dragons especially have SR (which takes out the vast majority of possibilities, excellent saving throws Actually they only have 25 since the’re celestial and all. And if you do hit my two Ring-Gated dragons with Banishment, they have those two Rings of Spell Turning, don't forget. Like as not, the only recourse you'll have is Mass Ectoplasmic Cocoon (which is eminently dispellable), by me. After this, I’ll be content to wait the 2 minutes, thanks! Sadly, if I had wanted to, I could have blasted them to next week. Just another something the kineticist build can do that the evoker couldn’t if he wanted to (without using exploits). And should you succeed at taking them all down, I'm still in the better position, and you're out there and rather vulnerable. How is in the ground ethereal, after I’ve done temporal acceleration death/destruction “out in the open”? (which I’ve established I can or can’t use depending on my mood/inclination). Especially since you seem to be keen on turtling after your shrink item exploit got shot down. Cute. And in any case, who said that my familiar was out there on round 1? I keep my little pseudodragon (from the Improved Familiar feat) in reserve for a round, send him out, cast AMF on him, then I'd have him do his level best to keep within 10' of you at all times, delaying his actions until your initiative, if he had to.And I won’t leave myself “out in the open” so its irrelevant. If he finds me, my psicrystal teleports us both to safty & then I kill the familiar. (so whats your point?) For one, YOU CANNOT DIRECTLY AFFECT CREATURES WHILE TEMPORALLY ACCELERATING. If I say that enough times, maybe you'll actually see it. And you seem to forget I am using Delay Power [metapsionic] feat. Works on personal and AoEs. The rest of the time, I won’t need it. As far as Detect Teleport, fine, go ahead. When did I say detect teleport? I said bend reality (trace teleport). Check you’re powers again, allow me to help you: Trace Teleport Clairsentience Level: Psion/wilder 4 Display: Visual Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Area: Spread with a radius of 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels, centered on you Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 7 As detect teleportation, except you can trace the destination of any psionic or magical teleportation made by others within this power’s area within the last minute. You know the direction and distance the individuals traveled and could teleport to the location yourself if you so desired (and if you know the psionic teleport power), as if you had “seen casually” the location. This power does not grant you any information on the conditions at the other end of the trace beyond the mental coordinates of the location. Augment If you spend 2 additional power points, this power’s range increases to Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level). Assuming it went as follows: You reach me (move action) and manifest something that gets through my protections (standard action) (assuming that I didn't move in my previous turn when I saw that you could manifest something next round), my Contingency fires off, sending me underground. You use your immediate action to manifest Temporal Acceleration, then manifest Detect Teleportation to see where I've gone (underground). You use your next turn to move to where I went, then manifest Psionic Disintegration. Which, incidentally, fails, as that 5' space is considered 'attended,' since I'm in it. Please support RAW the 5’ square ‘ground’ as attended when you’re incorporeal. I can’t wait to hear this one... :) You're 'disproving me' by putting up strategies that are breaking the rules, and thus, DO. NOT WORK. Not really, you’re just misinterpreting the data and purposefully corrupting what I’m saying to try and prove yourself correct. Interesting tactic of debate but it won’t work either. By the way, how are you using both Timeless Body AND Temporal Acceleration at the same time? When did I say I was using both at the same time? If I’m in temporal acceleration, I don’t have to worry about being invulnerable do I? (why would I even want both?) Of course not. What I'm questioning (in fact, flat out denying) is the validity and wisdom of the tactics you're using during those rounds spent in Time Stop. The ability to choose the battlefield and choose if I wish to squash the oppositon like a bug. The temporal acceleration loop wrecks the game about as much as the shrink item exploit does. (and is begging for a houserule). The gated uber templated creature is almost as bad. Some might say exploit, others might not, so I haven't ruled it out yet, but...alas, you still think the shrink item is a "valid" tactic (I define "valid" as: it would actually be used in game play, on a regular basis, and DMs would not houserule against it and/or everyone near unanimously agree's is broken). --Not valid as in "not prohibited by RAW". If somethings never even going to see the game table I have no use for 'theoredical' loopholes/exploits. You haven't reached me yet. While you're frantically running around in your own little time-frame, bleeding power points out the ears, I'm sitting in my nice little cubby-hole, conserving resources. And as I’ve pointed out, I can do the same, waiting for you’re expensive gating minions to go home after a short 2 minutes. You could be much more efficient just hiding, teleporting around in an shapechange - archon celestial form, invisible (with their supernatural teleport ability); but then again, I might find you via toughsight, but on a 1 mile area, it'd be pretty hard and you'd use less resources. ----------------------------------- I've been meaning to ask something: Why are you just using celestial gold dragons? Why not paragon pesudonatural gold dragons? Or half-celesital gold dragons with holy word cast at 41 CL. That brings me to my next point -- is gate broken? Is use of such a spell to do these things an exploit (there-by invalidating our results). Surely its not as clear cut as the shrink item (100,000+ damage) problem...but you seem to think THAT was a valid tactic; why would this be any different? Is it an exploit to do such things...I wonder. I guess that depends on who you ask, doesn't it? I wonder if our comparison was done at 15th level the results might be different? (just a thought) Shall I compare a sorcerer using the shapechange (animal) + awaken exploit to our kineticist and blow his save DCs out of the water? Valid by RAW (instantaneous effect), but not the best to base game balance on. ----------------------------------- I also think that the Psionics board has acted overly hostile to him. Simply being wrong does not make one a Troll. If you want to see a troll go to the optimization challenge boards and read the threads begun by Oppo28. I think that the denizens of the Psionics board have also allowed themselves to be biased, and you've treated YIDM rather harshly. Psionics does have flaws, and it is very good at dealing direct damage in novas. And, believe it or not, that can affect game balance. True, an optimized wizard can do it too, and better, but that's also bad. Saying or even proving that something is really bad does not make a less bad thing okay. It makes it less bad. Which leads to my view on balance. If a character makes all the other characters in the party feel unnecessary, that's bad, and there's no way around it. However, what constitutes unnecessary will vary from game to game, with how the other players feel about being sidelined while the Psion (or Wizard!) novas. If the DM can make them feel useful while the Psion is spent, and fun is had, then the system is fine. If not, then that's very bad, but...that's kinda what a DM is for. If he can't do that, you probably aren't having much fun to begin with. Thank God. At least someone here isn't a jerk. I've tried to remain civil. I'm not trolling or baiting. I admit, I "could" be wrong, but that doesn't mean mine and others like me opinions don't matter. I don't think I'm wrong, nor do many who've seen first hand the game-balance wrecker that psionics can do. Just cause you don't agree doesn't mean you're right either. It's all opinions really. (unless you're WotC officially saying something). Your Immortal DM
unusualsuspect 11-29-06, 08:51 PM	Actually they only have 25 since the’re celestial and all. Incorrect. Their Celestial SR is limited to 25, but they already have SR 33. Other then that minor correction, I agree with a few of the above posters. This'll be my last post in this thread.
Lycanthromancer 11-29-06, 08:52 PM	Y'know what? I don't care any more. You're obviously never going to go at me, OR listen to a single word I have to say, so I have no reason to keep arguing this with you. And I hardly consider my tactics on that to be 'exploits.' Simply intelligent usage of the resources at hand, which seems to be something that you're all too incapable of doing. So you win by sheer force of irritation. I've spent the better part of the day responding to your insipid posts filled with rules-errors, and it's a waste of time. Enjoy your victory, YIDM, empty though it may be, and have fun with the rest of the threads you're going to post after this one finally dies.
Gondor 11-29-06, 09:01 PM	YIDM, I don't blame you for skipping over many posts in this forum; it would be almost impossible to avoid. I think I have an important point, though--it appears that all of your maneuvers center around Temporal Acceleration. Is it possible that this power is the element that is broken, rather than psionics itself? If you refuse to throw away the magic system because of a few broken effects (shrink item comes to mind), then it would only be logical to do the same for psionics. I'd be a lot more convinced of your general thesis if you could show even nearly the same level of power without that one power.
Psionx 11-29-06, 09:18 PM	I get a last post too, and it will be my LAST post on this thread. YIDM, Read the gate spell and realize that he can keep them there longer if he wanted by promising them his stuff or whatever.
Deekin 11-29-06, 10:51 PM	YIDM: I noticed that your builds and combo tend to revolve around 2 major things: Schism, and Temporal Acceleration. These seem to be the major problems. You said you just house-rule out the Gate and Shrink item+TK silliness, and so I ask you, If you took out those two elements, would psionics still seem overpowered to you?
AntiDjinn 11-29-06, 11:27 PM	YIDM: I noticed that your builds and combo tend to revolve around 2 major things: Schism, and Temporal Acceleration. These seem to be the major problems. You said you just house-rule out the Gate and Shrink item+TK silliness, and so I ask you, If you took out those two elements, would psionics still seem overpowered to you? And nevermind that Schism can't benefit from Temporal Acceleration. Nevermind that it can't coexist with Timeless Body or Mind Blank. Nevermind that nothing in the rules says your secondary mind can concentrate on powers manifest by your primary (or vice-versa) or that it can make ray attacks when it does not control your body (and thus does not have use of your Dex). Nevermind that the rules don't say if it has feats and so it may or may not have access to your psicrystal. He isn't using Schism, he is using one of a host of interpretations of Schism. He believes it is Haste 3.0; it is not. It explicitly creates a second mind that acts as a second autonomous character. It is two characters in one bod sharing a single power pool, not one character moving a turbo speed and ignoring the restrictions imposed by Schism.
King Bulba 11-29-06, 11:38 PM	Well my last post in this one as well. So let me get this strait...in order for you to ‘prove’ that psionics aren’t broken, you’re comparing it to game rule exploits/loopholes that 95% of DMs wouldn’t allow anyway? (making your claim largely invalid; however correct by RAW) How is using exploits and loopholes that DMs (and RPGA DMs) won’t allow prove that psionics are balanced? Wouldn’t it be smarter to compare it to more legitimate tactics? Or is that they only way you force magic to compete? Why not compare legitimate magic-based tactics (that DMs will allow) to legitimate psionic-based tactics? That seems like the most “reasonable” way to compare two things. (that's just me) You are missing the whole point. Also your throwing around some fallicies in that segment I quoted. Who cares what the RPGA says, your appeal to authority has failed. They are houserules and are not RAW. Those so called "exploits" are RAW and core. They are also 100% legal. Just beacuse they are nasty and most DMs take them away for balance reasons doesn't mean that they are not legitamate in a RAW/core game. The fact that most DMs take away those options shows how unbalanced arcane magic is. I have yet to hear an exploit that is legit about psioncis from you, I have heard at least 3+ about arcane on this thread. That is how the wizard plays, with intelegence. Who cares if you can nukes 20D6 in an area multipal times, since blasting doesnt matter when a wizard drops boulders on you for 1.2*10^3 damage which covers your entire square so it isnt evadable, and your now barried in rubble. Dirty tricks are how wizards are the one enamy you avoid crossing. I liked the orcs wearing hat of disguise trick to make you waste resources, they just have to be out of range of trueseeing and the psion will not know the difference. Wizards will trick you and wait for you to run out of PPs with their lower level spells. There are other NASTY instant death no save tricks but I dont want to be the one who gives one away MUAHAHAHA. Also note that you can not have timeless body up and schism up at the same time, timless body ignores all helpfull effects too. It is still a buff even if it acts apart from you so it is supressed by the timeless body. Also note mind blank blocks schism too. Ohh and temperal acceleration isnt a mind-affecting power (no discriptor) and not a fear attack, so it bypasses mindblank! You can not pull your chain temperal acceleration trick off. The wizard just has to wait you out untill you run out of power points. Trying to keep vigor up as long as the rest of your buffs indefinatly, its a short term buff. Also I havent seen how you keep regaining your psionic focus, im sure you have a way but im sure that's taking actions that need to be expressed. Thing is when you go outside core, wizards get 10 times stronger while psions get slightly weaker with complete psionics. That matters since no one plays RAW and core at home, they use suppliments with house rules. Now let me show what a slightly biased 3rd party seen in this debate. - Arcane has more dirty tricks than psions. You listed one trick that doesnt work. Note this thread isnt talking about psionics but psions. Arcane has more power and is more versital than psions since larger spell list. - Psions can spend its limited resources fast and get results but it is QUICKLY winded, while arcane can use lower level spells to produce better effects if they use intelegence and keep that up for a LONG time. Also note wizards can spend their resources just as fast if they choose to, thus giving arcane more flexability. - Psions do as much direct damage as wizards if not slightly more, BUT if planed right wizard does so much more with non direct damage spells. Psions also get no equilivant powers like shrink item. There are other no save tricks the wizard can do that psions can't that will disable just about anyone. Final conculsions Arcane magic users are more powerfull than psions. That doesn't mean psions are not over powered compaired to melee, just that they are weaker than arcane magic, dont even compair it to divine magic LOL. If psions are broken then so are arcane magic users.
TheDarkLord 11-30-06, 01:36 AM	Um, yeah, it's time to desubscribe from this thread, apparently RAW is two different things when it comes to Psionics and Magic, one can be houseruled to be less powerful, the other can't, therefor it's broken. Happy Gaming :D The Dark Lord.
lears_fool 11-30-06, 08:44 AM	And ironically, regardless of which of the two 'builds' comes out ahead in an imaginary 20th level struggle (that from the looks of things would be silly and very little fun to play with in a group). . . nothing's been accomplished. It doesn't show that a kineticist is better than an evoker. .the fact that a Sorc can do the same three times more often in a day doesn't make the sorc better than either. How much raw damage two fundamentally different 20th level characters can do in a 'perfect world' for them has so little to do with how they play in a game it's almost laughable.
Your Immortal DM 11-30-06, 08:58 AM	Quote: Lycanthromancer So you win by sheer force of irritation. I've spent the better part of the day responding to your insipid posts filled with rules-errors, and it's a waste of time. Enjoy your victory, YIDM, empty though it may be, and have fun with the rest of the threads you're going to post after this one finally dies. At this point an empty victory is still a victory, sad as it is. :rolleye2: Quote: Gondor YIDM, I don't blame you for skipping over many posts in this forum; it would be almost impossible to avoid. I think I have an important point, though--it appears that all of your maneuvers center around Temporal Acceleration. Is it possible that this power is the element that is broken, rather than psionics itself? If you refuse to throw away the magic system because of a few broken effects (shrink item comes to mind), then it would only be logical to do the same for psionics. I'd be a lot more convinced of your general thesis if you could show even nearly the same level of power without that one power.Considering there are 10-20 responses after each ONE of my posts, yeah it's hard to keep up. I checked this thread like 5 times a day and couldn't stay ahead of it. It's like being in a room with a bunch of yelling children and trying to answer each one of them in turn with a fully developed, no mistakes answer for each one. (a virtual impossibility, practically speaking) And yes, for that matter, a houserule on temporal acceleration (and time stop) is what I've had to enforce in my epic games. I sincerely tried not to need one and get around the issue using other tactics, but it became clear of whoever goes first "wins" which really isn't fun for anyone (DM or player). Quote: Psionx YIDM, Read the gate spell and realize that he can keep them there longer if he wanted by promising them his stuff or whatever. What you going to promise them? When did said negotiation take place? (are you going to beat the dragons Diplomacy skill checks?) If we base the "cost" off of things like planar ally, for 1 min/level tasks, we'll get 100 gp / HD (easily affordable at 4,100 gp per dragon for a 20th level character). This duration can also be 'turtled' past. What about 1 hour per caster level? (not turtle-able) That starts to get expensive at 500 gp / HD (20,500 gp). Just basing these numbers on planar ally, it's really up to the DM on that one...it could be far more, or he could 'bump up' the time categories so it costs 20,500 gp for the 1 min/level version. Who can say for sure? Quote: Deekin YIDM: I noticed that your builds and combo tend to revolve around 2 major things: Schism, and Temporal Acceleration. These seem to be the major problems. You said you just house-rule out the Gate and Shrink item+TK silliness, and so I ask you, If you took out those two elements, would psionics still seem overpowered to you? Probably the easiest solution to several problems. Unfortunately, it still doesn’t help the overall power balance of the kineticist vs. the evoker. (they should be roughly equal “blasters” and save-or-suffer throwers). Quote: AntiDjinn And nevermind that Schism can't benefit from Temporal Acceleration. Nevermind that it can't coexist with Timeless Body or Mind Blank. Nevermind that nothing in the rules says your secondary mind can concentrate on powers manifest by your primary (or vice-versa) or that it can make ray attacks when it does not control your body (and thus does not have use of your Dex). Nevermind that the rules don't say if it has feats and so it may or may not have access to your psicrystal. He isn't using Schism, he is using one of a host of interpretations of Schism. He believes it is Haste 3.0; it is not. It explicitly creates a second mind that acts as a second autonomous character. It is two characters in one bod sharing a single power pool, not one character moving a turbo speed and ignoring the restrictions imposed by Schism. When did I say I was using schism in my temporal acceleration loops? (I didn’t) When did I say I was using schism DURING my timeless body? (I use it before, after or in-between manifestations of timeless body, not during; TB only lasts 1 round, quite easy to do schism in-between actually). Where does it say that ray attacks need a body to function? (schism can fire energy rays them off just fine) The psicrystal is just concentrating on energy current (via solicit psicrystal) or teleporting us both around via an item (depending on my inclination). What feats does it need to do that? (None) So far you’ve failed to prove anything I’m “ignoring”. Perhaps you mis-read what I posted? (there was a lot of text out there, so I can sympathize) Quote: King Bulba Those so called "exploits" are RAW and core. They are also 100% legal. Just beacuse they are nasty and most DMs take them away for balance reasons doesn't mean that they are not legitamate in a RAW/core game. The fact that most DMs take away those options shows how unbalanced arcane magic is.Here’s the issue: Even if said abuses exisit, if we never actually see them in game, and they are never actually used, how does it matter if they DO exist? I know DM’s aren't going to allow a 100,000+ damage loopholes, so it's irrelevant to COMPARE that to the psions powers? (since it never actually comes up). What’s relevant to compare is what we ARE going to see used in the game, and how that affects game play. Just cause there are exploits and loopholes doesn’t mean we use those as a measuring stick for power-balance. That’s the worst thing we could do. (I figured that would go without saying) You compare what’s really hitting the game table, not some theoretical nightmare that will never actually be used in play. Quote: TheDarklord Um, yeah, it's time to desubscribe from this thread, apparently RAW is two different things when it comes to Psionics and Magic, one can be houseruled to be less powerful, the other can't, therefor it's broken. No, I just wanted others to admit that psionics needs houserules JUST as magic does to be balanced (but I’ll whole-heartedly agree magic needs more of them). Psionics isn’t “fine” as is, as some have claimed (especially so with the advent of CPsiHB). Quote: lears fool How much raw damage two fundamentally different 20th level characters can do in a 'perfect world' for them has so little to do with how they play in a game it's almost laughable.I’d argue that point, but as we’ve shown with over 250+ posts, nobodies listening or really talking to heart the other persons viewpoint. And it does matter when all that mega-damage is dropped on round 1 (that is assuredly an issue) Barring no more responses, this will be my last post as well. At this point I'm content with whoever may have actually listened to the points I've tried to bring up, and to those that can't/won't listen -- we can agree to disagree. (no harm no foul in having a difference of opinion) Good day to all, see you at Gen-Con/Dragon-Con, and I wish you all the best of gaming & a merry Christmas. Your Immortal DM
Pizzini3000 11-30-06, 12:00 PM	No, I just wanted others to admit that psionics needs houserules JUST as magic does to be balanced (but I’ll whole-heartedly agree magic needs more of them). Psionics isn’t “fine” as is, as some have claimed (especially so with the advent of CPsiHB). of all your posts that i've read, I have never picked up your implications that magic is broken too. All anyone else has been trying to say, from what I can tell, is that psionics is no more broken than magic, and here you are saying what everyone else has been trying to argue. Psionics is just DIFFERENT. why do you feel the need to single out psionics over magic? I don't think anyone would disagree with someone saying, "psionics is broken, as magic is broken."
chiefcastor 11-30-06, 12:44 PM	So… And finally... :P So ergo, shaken is a fear effect, and fear effects are mind-affecting. If the shaken affect somehow “isn’t” a fear effect then it doesn’t stack, cause only fear effects stack (and you don’t need mind blank). So which is it? Is it not a fear effect so the shaken doesn't stack or is it a fear effect making it mind-affecting??? Mind Blank, Psionic Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 8 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: One day Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes (harmless) Power Points: 15 The subject is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors. Psionic mind blank even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it (however, metafaculty can pierce the protective quality of psionic mind blank). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area the creature is in, the effect works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing (scrying) attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. Temporal Acceleration Psychoportation Level: Psion/wilder 6 Display: None Manifesting Time: 1 swift action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round (in apparent time); see text Power Points: 11 You enter another time frame, speeding up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen, though they are actually still moving at normal speed. You are free to act for 1 round of apparent time. You can manifest powers, cast spells, move, or perform other types of actions, subject to the restrictions outlined below. While your temporal acceleration is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and powers. This means you cannot target a creature with any attack or power. However, a power you manifest that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of your temporal acceleration has its normal effect on creatures in the area once this power ends. You can affect an unattended object but not an object held, carried, or worn by another creature. You are undetectable by any means while your temporal acceleration lasts. While under the effect of this power, you cannot enter an area protected by a null psionics field or by a power or spell that neutralizes high-level powers or spells. Normal and magical fire, cold, acid, and the like can still harm you. When your temporal acceleration expires, you resume acting during your current turn in the standard time frame. You are shaken for 1 round upon your return to the standard time frame. Splintered or partitioned minds within your own mind, such as might be in effect through the use of powers such as schism, are not temporally speeded up, even if your second mind manifested this power (your primary mind gains the benefit, while your second mind remains stuck in the standard time frame). Manifesting this power is a swift action You cannot manifest this power when it isn’t your turn. Augment For every 4 additional power points you spend, this power’s duration (in apparent time) increases by 1 round. Now I bolded the important parts. No where does it say mind blank protects from mind-affecting effects. It says powers with the mind-affecting descriptor. Now if you look really close you will see that temporal acceleration does not have this descriptor (Note: to see what the descriptor looks like see mindblank). So, shaken is a fear effect and it is even mind-affecting but shaken itself is not a power with the mind-affecting descriptor, nor is temporal acceleration. Therefore, the fear effects from multiple loops of temporal acceleration do indeed stack regardless of having mindblank up. This is RAW. If you can refute it with RAW and actual SRD quotes please do, but I do not think you can.
NoldorForce 11-30-06, 01:09 PM	That's very bizarre. How didn't we notice it before? Psionic Mind Blank, which protects against [mind-affecting] effects, is [mind-affecting] itself! Anyway......Then he hacks the guy's head off. It falls to the floor, does a half-roll, and comes to rest staring straight up at the ceiling. So Hiro steps back a couple of paces and mumbles, "Safe."
RadicalTaoist 11-30-06, 01:45 PM	*props for quoting Neal Stephenson, one of my fav authors ever* I'll say it needs houserules. My problem is no one arguing for psi-overpoweredness actually points out what really needs houserules: Empathic Transfer, Hostile (so it actually makes sense) Bestow Power (KILL IT WITH FIRE) Affinity Field (just prevent a few infinite loops) Metaconcert (stupidly vague) Metamorphosis and Greater (for the same reasons as Polymorph. On the whole these are less broken than their arcane counterparts, though. A cap on the mass of the object you can become plz?) AAAAAaaaand the Energy Missile and Stun DCs which they addressed in CP. That's all the 'houserules' the XPH needs, and not even all of those are nerfs (ET:H should get an augmentable DC, in my opinion). Any other changes I'd make to the XPH would not be nerfs, they'd be boosts to the underpowered (mostly giving save DC augments to powers like Time Hop and Cloud Mind). I don't think anyone's saying it's flawless, but please, address what are actually the issues. Not vague bad feelings about blasting.
Reinforcements 11-30-06, 01:48 PM	Wait a minute. Does this whole chaining of temporal acceleration even work? Delay Power only delays by exactly 5 rounds, not UP TO 5 rounds.
crizhII 11-30-06, 01:51 PM	Now I bolded the important parts. No where does it say mind blank protects from mind-affecting effects. It says powers with the mind-affecting descriptor. Now if you look really close you will see that temporal acceleration does not have this descriptor (Note: to see what the descriptor looks like see mindblank). So, shaken is a fear effect and it is even mind-affecting but shaken itself is not a power with the mind-affecting descriptor, nor is temporal acceleration. Therefore, the fear effects from multiple loops of temporal acceleration do indeed stack regardless of having mindblank up. This is RAW. If you can refute it with RAW and actual SRD quotes please do, but I do not think you can. I've been wondering about this and I think I just realised that it is a silly thing.... Round 1 .......: Manifest TA as Immediate Round TA1.1: Buff Round TA1.2: Buff Round TA1.3: Buff, Manifest TA as Immediate Round TA2.1: Buff Round TA2.2: Buff Round TA2.3: Buff, Manifest TA as Immediate Round TA3.1: Buff Round TA3.2: Buff Round TA3.3: Buff Round 1 .......: Run like hell (Panicked) or Round 1 .......: Manifest TA as Immediate Round TA1.1: Manifest TA as Immediate Round TA2.1: Manifest TA as Immediate Round TA3.1: Buff Round TA3.2: Buff Round TA3.3: Buff Round TA2.1: Buff, Shaken, No Immediate Round TA2.2: Buff Round TA2.3: Buff Round TA1.1: Buff, Shaken, No Immediate Round TA1.2: Buff Round TA1.3: Buff Round 1 .......: Shaken, No Immediate, Kick bottom Even if you were so stupid as to not be able to work that out there are many ways to become immune to fear that would work and have nothing to do with Mind Blank. Potions of Remove Fear? An unconcious Paladin sealed in Quintesence and Fusion... (mmmmm that bears thinking about...)
AntiDjinn 11-30-06, 02:03 PM	That's all the 'houserules' the XPH needs, and not even all of those are nerfs Well, that is most of the power-related houserules. I would add some for Feat Leech (has lots of "what ifs") and a once and for all ruling for Schism. Lets not get started on psicrystal rulings, PrCs (though mage PrCs need to get the hammer, psionic ones generally need a boost) the wilder, and 80% of Comp Psi.
NoldorForce 11-30-06, 02:04 PM	Wait a minute. Does this whole chaining of temporal acceleration even work? Delay Power only delays by exactly 5 rounds, not UP TO 5 rounds.Hmm...hadn't noticed that. Perhaps that's why the psionic version is cheaper relative to other metapsionics that have a metamagic equivalent. You could take a standard action to activate the Delayed effect, but that runs up against the "everything else is invulnerable" clause of Temporal Acceleration when you're affected by it. Similarly, the third possible way is to have a creature enter the area, similar to 2E's Skull Trap (from what I remember of Baldur's Gate); however, setting such effects up in a "mine" mechanic can be tricky. As above, Psionic Mind Blank needs fixing, considering that it apparently nullifies itself. Considering that the spellcasting version is nearly identical with the exception of that descriptor, it's probably safe to say that simply removing the descriptor is enough to fix it.
AntiDjinn 11-30-06, 02:18 PM	If you select one of the first two trigger options (when you take a standard action to activate it, or when a creature enters the area) then Delay Power is up to 5 rounds. If you select the third option then it is exactly 5 rounds. Yeah, kinda lame.
Your Immortal DM 11-30-06, 02:38 PM	Mind Blank, Psionic Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psion/wilder 8 Display: Olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: One day Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Power Resistance: Yes (harmless) Power Points: 15 The subject is protected from all devices, powers, and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This power protects against powers with the mind-affecting or scrying descriptors. Psionic mind blank even foils bend reality, limited wish, miracle, reality revision, and wish when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it (however, metafaculty can pierce the protective quality of psionic mind blank). In the case of remote viewing or scrying that scans an area the creature is in, the effect works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Remote viewing (scrying) attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. Quote: NoldorForce Psionic Mind Blank, which protects against [mind-affecting] effects, is [mind-affecting] itself! Wow, now psionc mind blank stops itself! (how amusing) So what do we have now? Internal insconsistency! (glad you dug that up). Just goes to show you psionics isn't as flaw-proof as some have said. Lets go back to the source: Mind Blank Abjuration Level: Protection 8, Sor/Wiz 8 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One creature Duration: 24 hours Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all. This is more clear. Now we know what intention of psionic mind blank was. (not being immune to itself, for example) Hence, using a bit of common sense and we've solved our problem. Quote: RadicalTaoist I'll say it needs houserules. My problem is no one arguing for psi-overpoweredness actually points out what really needs houserules: Empathic Transfer, Hostile (so it actually makes sense) Bestow Power (KILL IT WITH FIRE) Affinity Field (just prevent a few infinite loops) Metaconcert (stupidly vague) Metamorphosis and Greater (for the same reasons as Polymorph. On the whole these are less broken than their arcane counterparts, though. A cap on the mass of the object you can become plz?) AAAAAaaaand the Energy Missile and Stun DCs which they addressed in CP. That's all the 'houserules' the XPH needs, and not even all of those are nerfs (ET:H should get an augmentable DC, in my opinion). Any other changes I'd make to the XPH would not be nerfs, they'd be boosts to the underpowered (mostly giving save DC augments to powers like Time Hop and Cloud Mind). And what if someone else finds chains of temporal accelerations (or time stop) a problem? Key here is, is hard to say what’s “powerful” vs. what’s “overpowered/broken”. Just a guess, but the answers will be all over the place. So what does this all mean? No matter what system you play (magic or psionics) the system its completely broken for RAW (so RAW is largely useless/pointless). --You MUST have houserules or the game falls apart. That about sum it up? Your Immortal DM
RadicalTaoist 11-30-06, 02:46 PM	Psionics, as a system, has remarkably less fault lines than nearly anything else in 3.5. 6 fixes, two of which are more clarifications to clear up vagueness rather than any actual balance problem (although now that I think about it Temporal Regression is a little fuzzy too) is a very good record. So what if a DM needs houserules? This surprises you? There's broken stuff in the PHB skills and class features if magic isn't enough. The argument "You MUST have houserules" is flaccid. No duh.
gooddragon1 11-30-06, 02:49 PM	I had the same problem as you YIDM except it was with regards to the new timeshifted cards they put out there. I thought it was lies until a certain point. At that point I at least admitted I was wrong, tho neme can go ____ himself if he thinks I'll "put my foot in my mouth". As a result of my actions I exiled myself from their forums. However, after reading through the amount of evidence that has been placed against you, I realize the major difference: I actually admitted that I was wrong when the proof was overwhelming. You on the other hand continue a useless debate and when they guy above you asked for a RAW interpretation, you used intent instead of actually answering the question. Now heres the really interesting bit (it's also a bit hypocritical): I am also psionx. I'll admit that over on the magic threads too if I have to, but still, I at least admit that the other viewpoint was correct when given the evidence and you blatantly ignore it. (BTW: I am allowed to do this because I really meant it would be psionx's last post, but not my main accts last post so ha.) Oh and dragons have volunteered in wars for a good price when wars don't exactly have a duration so there isn't really a set price for durations. EDIT: Well, hopefully this will kill the thread but I doubt it
Lokiyn 11-30-06, 02:57 PM	by the way, mind blank doesn't end existing affects, read the rules people, spells check for validity on casting. Afterwords if one chnges thier nature (charm person on a wizard that changes type) they still are affected. Basic rules ofthe game
TheDarkLord 11-30-06, 03:01 PM	No, I just wanted others to admit that psionics needs houserules JUST as magic does to be balanced (but I’ll whole-heartedly agree magic needs more of them). Psionics isn’t “fine” as is, as some have claimed (especially so with the advent of CPsiHB). Um, then why the big show? I'd have agreed with you 100% from the very start if I had known this is actually what you meant. Many of us were trying to make the statement psioncis were more balanced than magic straight out of the book. But yes, houserules are needed in psionics as much as magic. Still after the houserules magic in all it's forms are more powerful (unless you beat magic with a nerf stick till you can only have 1st level spells through 20 levels as some think is the best way to go).
Bacris 11-30-06, 03:20 PM	I'd like to know who has ever claimed that psionics in its entirety is perfect as is? I know I haven't...
AntiDjinn 11-30-06, 03:22 PM	by the way, mind blank doesn't end existing affects, read the rules people, spells check for validity on casting. Afterwords if one chnges thier nature (charm person on a wizard that changes type) they still are affected. Basic rules ofthe game Interesting. So targeting restrictions no longer apply after an effect is in effect. So if I Fate Link two living creatures who are initially within 30 feet of each other (the targeting line of Fate Link) and then kill one of them, in addition to taking damage and needing to save vs. two negative levels, the surviving subject is still Fate Linked to the dead one despite the fact it is now an invalid target for being solo and its partner is invalid for no longer being living. The death of one target is not stated as a condition that ends Fate Link so if invalid tagets don't end it, it must continue to be in effect. So I can revivfy the dead one (has no effect on its partner) and kill it again to do more damage (no save) and possibly inflict 2 more negative levels on the other target. I only needed to check for validity when I manifest; everything that happens thereafter will happen regardless of whether or not validity is manitained? What if one target is Time Hopped, is the other still affected despite having no creature in existence to whom it is linked? If I kill the guy who didn't get hopped, is the other in for a world of hurt when it returns or does it escape this fate?
Lokiyn 11-30-06, 03:38 PM	Aiming A Spell You must make some choice about whom the spell is to affect or where the effect is to originate, depending on the type of spell. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate. Target or Targets Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell. If the target of a spell is yourself (the spell description has a line that reads Target: You), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The Saving Throw and Spell Resistance lines are omitted from such spells. Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing. Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. EffectSome spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile it can move regardless of the spell’s range. RaySome effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at. If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists. If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Spread Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can’t see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect. Area Some spells affect an area. Sometimes a spell description specifies a specially defined area, but usually an area falls into one of the categories defined below. Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection. You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell’s area, anything within that square is within the spell’s area. If the spell’s area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell. Burst, Emanation, or Spread Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell’s point of origin and measure its effect from that point. A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends. An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres. A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes. Cone, Cylinder, Line, or Sphere Most spells that affect an area have a particular shape, such as a cone, cylinder, line, or sphere. A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners. When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell’s point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area. A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares that the line passes through. A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads. Creatures A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select. The area might be a spherical burst, a cone-shaped burst, or some other shape. Many spells affect "living creatures," which means all creatures other than constructs and undead. Creatures in the spell’s area that are not of the appropriate type do not count against the creatures affected. Objects A spell with this kind of area affects objects within an area you select (as Creatures, but affecting objects instead). Other A spell can have a unique area, as defined in its description. From casting Spells The Spell's Result Once you know which creatures (or objects or areas) are affected, and whether those creatures have made successful saving throws (if any were allowed), you can apply whatever results a spell entails. So basically Targeting applies to precasting the spell, can i hit this person. Area is after the spell. Similar to if i cast melfs acid arrow on a target at the extent of my range, then he moved bak he still is affected by the Acid effect.
Red12 11-30-06, 04:00 PM	Ok, I thought I was done on page 2 of this thread, but at this point, I MUST chime in. YIDM, you did not say "Psionics needs to have house rules" you said "Psionics is overpowered". Now when you say "Psionics is overpowered" you are saying that Psionics is MORE POWERFUL than exsisting magic. This is incredibly false. So what does this all mean? No matter what system you play (magic or psionics) the system its completely broken for RAW (so RAW is largely useless/pointless). --You MUST have houserules or the game falls apart. That about sum it up? This is a given IF you are refering to the Myth: XPH is overpowered threads, then you have failed to realize their purpose: For the people who think RAW Psionics is overpowered in comparison to RAW Magic. You never stopped saying the word "overpowered" you did not say "needs house rules"- the former will bring down hell upon your head, the latter will bring you "no duh"
johnkretzer 11-30-06, 04:26 PM	Wow, now psionc mind blank stops itself! (how amusing) So what do we have now? Internal insconsistency! (glad you dug that up). Just goes to show you psionics isn't as flaw-proof as some have said. You don't have mind blank in effect when cast or manifest it. So how does it stop it self? Do you have a caster who cast Spell Resistance on himself make check to overcome the SR that the spell will give him? Use some common sense. Also can you point out any statement where someone said that psionics is completely balance? You have admitted it your self that psionics needs less house rules then magic. So a question a simple one word answear would be enough( I really don't want a debate) Also I would like to make one last point. You can't justify comparing Psionics amd magic based on core only because the XPH came out there was already splat books that increased the Casters powers. Since the game designers assumed no body plays core only(especialy if you are using a non-core book which XPH is) they took into account "balance" wise those splat books. Or are you going tell me that the game designers only want people to buy 3 books? Also when people come in here saying psionics is overpowered you are going to get a bad reaction. It is probably a overeaction. But you have to understand the CPsi was a splat book full of nerfs( some needed). It should be called The Complete Nerfs (for a class that doesn't need them). Now you might said that this proves that Psionics are overpowered but if you look at the nerf it isn't even funny. Do a comparsion between a conjurer and a meta creative see who can out summon who using the nerf to the Astral Construct Power(Which is you can only have one at a time.) Are they even remotely equal? Also with the nefs to a metacreative damaging powers it is just sad at this point. Or just using core Enchanter Vs a XPH Telepath? If there is one thing that psionic should exceed at is mind effecting powers but guess what even with the CPsi the core only enchanter would blow away a Telepath. Why? Because a Enchanter can just keep throwing Dominates, a Telepath can have 1 and not do anything else but move and control your puppet. If you spend the feats you can have 2 or just one and do other things. So anytime someone comes on and says Psionics is overpowered. We feel the need to defend it lest we get Complete Nerfs II( more nerfs to make the Psion unable to even stand in the shadow of a wizard). I hope that explains peoples reaction to your posts. Suggestion next time you might want to make a suggested "House rules to Psionic" thread instead of "Psionics is Overpowered". You'll probably get alot nicer response.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-06, 05:35 PM	I'll say it needs houserules. My problem is no one arguing for psi-overpoweredness actually points out what really needs houserules: Empathic Transfer, Hostile (so it actually makes sense) Bestow Power (KILL IT WITH FIRE) Affinity Field (just prevent a few infinite loops) Metaconcert (stupidly vague) Metamorphosis and Greater (for the same reasons as Polymorph. On the whole these are less broken than their arcane counterparts, though. A cap on the mass of the object you can become plz?) AAAAAaaaand the Energy Missile and Stun DCs which they addressed in CP. That's all the 'houserules' the XPH needs, and not even all of those are nerfs (ET:H should get an augmentable DC, in my opinion). Any other changes I'd make to the XPH would not be nerfs, they'd be boosts to the underpowered (mostly giving save DC augments to powers like Time Hop and Cloud Mind). I don't think anyone's saying it's flawless, but please, address what are actually the issues. Not vague bad feelings about blasting. It doesnt matter much, but as the thread has no real point anyway I thought I'd say something. I dont agree with the energy missile dc needing to be changed. They could've made it unsaveable at some point and I still wouldnt have had a problem with it in fact. But energy missiles 'targeting' ability definately needs to be changed! I guess YIDM thinks some people are saying that the system is without flaws, which I havent seen to be the case so I would like for him to quote a few of them, but it isnt true. Every part of the system could use some tweaking, some more than others. In this case psionics doesnt need a lot, just a few here and there. Certainly less than the phb itself, much less.
Friendlyfish 11-30-06, 05:59 PM	You don't have mind blank in effect when cast or manifest it. So how does it stop it self? Do you have a caster who cast Spell Resistance on himself make check to overcome the SR that the spell will give him? Use some common sense. Also can you point out any statement where someone said that psionics is completely balance? You have admitted it your self that psionics needs less house rules then magic. So a question a simple one word answear would be enough( I really don't want a debate) Also I would like to make one last point. You can't justify comparing Psionics amd magic based on core only because the XPH came out there was already splat books that increased the Casters powers. Since the game designers assumed no body plays core only(especialy if you are using a non-core book which XPH is) they took into account "balance" wise those splat books. Or are you going tell me that the game designers only want people to buy 3 books? Also when people come in here saying psionics is overpowered you are going to get a bad reaction. It is probably a overeaction. But you have to understand the CPsi was a splat book full of nerfs( some needed). It should be called The Complete Nerfs (for a class that doesn't need them). Now you might said that this proves that Psionics are overpowered but if you look at the nerf it isn't even funny. Do a comparsion between a conjurer and a meta creative see who can out summon who using the nerf to the Astral Construct Power(Which is you can only have one at a time.) Are they even remotely equal? Also with the nefs to a metacreative damaging powers it is just sad at this point. Or just using core Enchanter Vs a XPH Telepath? If there is one thing that psionic should exceed at is mind effecting powers but guess what even with the CPsi the core only enchanter would blow away a Telepath. Why? Because a Enchanter can just keep throwing Dominates, a Telepath can have 1 and not do anything else but move and control your puppet. If you spend the feats you can have 2 or just one and do other things. So anytime someone comes on and says Psionics is overpowered. We feel the need to defend it lest we get Complete Nerfs II( more nerfs to make the Psion unable to even stand in the shadow of a wizard). I hope that explains peoples reaction to your posts. Suggestion next time you might want to make a suggested "House rules to Psionic" thread instead of "Psionics is Overpowered". You'll probably get alot nicer response. Actually, the dominate durations for the psion were errata'd. You can augment it to do just as you would with a dominate spell, and have as many as you like. If anything, the powerful puppetmaster abilities of the telepath are what make them seem very powerful to me, but certainly nothing broken; after all, a couple good dispels and you're suddenly sitting in the midst of a bunch of hostile ex-thralls which will then proceed to kill your party in conjunction with your usual assortment of hostiles.
Friendlyfish 11-30-06, 06:05 PM	Also, I'd like to see a different sort of comparison between psion and wizard: the comparison where obviously busted powers and spells were removed from the comparison. For instance, no sane GM is going to allow free reign on the broken top-tier arcane spells like Shapechange, PaO and Gate. I mean, I've NEVER played in a REAL game where the DM said, "Sure, go to town, summon the Uvuudaum and the Umbral Blot with that Gate spell!" Rather, they've said, "Uh, what? Gate don't work like that no more." Or when you use planar binding to summon an Efreeti-of-3-wishes. OR when you use simulacrum to get a half-price deity's avatar, or touching a Great Wyrm red dragon in his naughty place with Shivering Touch or some such nonsense. I've played a sorceror that was basically centered around packing all the broken crap into a nice, spontaneous-casting package. That flew with my DM for about...5 minutes before he looked at my spells, looked and me, and said, "Reroll." What's nice about psionics is that you look through it and you don't see anything obviously broken like that with the exception of, again, the metamorphosis and metamo., gr. powers. Now I run a telepath, and he's happily doing some powerful things, that aren't DM-provokingly broken. That's a win for the psion, in my opinion. Class feature: Does Not Provoke Angry DM.
sabino 11-30-06, 08:56 PM	Iv been reading this thread since it began but I haven’t added anything simply because im not as experienced as you guys but man you take all the fun out of DND. Is psionics overpowered YIDM? Not in my game but it seems in yours it is. That doesn’t mean your doing something wrong it just means that you and I and everybody else play differently. The main problem with this is that every one plays differently, is it so difficult for you to identify what elements are creating problems in your game and eliminating them. In the area of magic I have a simple observation. In the FR boards(sorry for speaking out of context) some moths ago some one asked if there was an epic NPC of purely fighter quality and he was indicated that DND in general not just faerun was a game made initially so that magic users would become stronger beyond any other form of individual. So since the beginning of the game magic had an advantage. YIDM you have obviously shown that you are an experienced player (and pleas stop using this, you indicate that people have been hostile towards you but when you demean them by indicating that you either have been playing DND longer than they have or that you have had on-line or email conversations with RPGA of any of the designers or whatever, I find this inflammatory. People aren’t asking for your resume, there asking for an explanation of your concepts) so use that knowledge, if psionics seem to be overpowered in your games then houserule them but that does not mean that the system it self is overpowered it just means it is in your game and that’s ok because people like us that use it still find the same problems in magic. I read this thread for a cheap laugh but by now I find this subject unnecessary and useless, i find my self not wanting to read any thread since thins one just sucks the fun out of DND and fun is supposed to be the point of the game, not this babble. I am sorry for speaking out of place but at the very least agree to disagree in this subject and burry is for good, its getting as bad as those “katanas are better than longswords” threads over at the equipment forum(I love katanas but its just an example) very laughable but very sad.
Traevanon 12-01-06, 08:53 AM	Its not a bad concept: Trying to compare two classes, one which has been giving your game problems and one which others claim can give your game worse problems. However, at the level at which you wanted to do the comparison the game is for all practical purposes done. Its like saying that Neo, once he has conquered the Matrix is more powerful than Aragorn, once he has conquered Gondor and Sauron. Both of them are indescribably powerful so what does it really matter? Check it out at level 3, 6, 9 and 12 before your character can ditch his party, conquer empires and create hordes of followers in a fortress made of permanent force in a place with no time. Levels 3-12 are where its at. These are the levels where your resources are still somewhat limited (supposedly). At level 20, your wish is the universe's command... unless you are a fighter. ; )
johnkretzer 12-01-06, 12:22 PM	Actually, the dominate durations for the psion were errata'd. You can augment it to do just as you would with a dominate spell, and have as many as you like. If anything, the powerful puppetmaster abilities of the telepath are what make them seem very powerful to me, but certainly nothing broken; after all, a couple good dispels and you're suddenly sitting in the midst of a bunch of hostile ex-thralls which will then proceed to kill your party in conjunction with your usual assortment of hostiles. Where is this errata? I am not disagreeing I just don't remember seeing it.
lord_khaine 12-01-06, 12:24 PM	regarding the use of contingence Temporal acceleration, what about the line in TA that says it can only be used on your own turn?
Guroth the Forsaken 12-01-06, 02:00 PM	Shhhhhhhh!!! Maybe if we ignore the troll, he'll go away!
sabino 12-01-06, 09:58 PM	Shhhhhhhh!!! Maybe if we ignore the troll, he'll go away! I would hope so but judging from everyones reactions from this thread thats just wishfull thinking :D PS:sorry YIDM, gotta even up the mood
ORC_Paradox 12-05-06, 09:39 AM	Enough with the flaming/trolling and/or baiting. If it continues, I'll start issuing warnings.
Tinari 02-21-07, 02:12 PM	Well, I just spent a few hours reading this topic from page 1 to page 10, and up until about page 8 did YIDM elucidate on what he REALLY meant all along. Basically, he seems to think everyone in the psionics board seems to think psionics as of 3.5 is this shining gem of perfection, and wants what I gather to be "all psionics lovers" to admit that "OMG psionics isn't purfect?! I thawt it was totaly purfect in all ways lawl!" or something to that effect. Regardless, YIDM, I would really like for you to address simply two things for me if you have the time and consideration to do such. Firstly, could you explain why you had to go through all the trouble to bring up an "evoker vs Kineticist" thread which showed both arcane and psionics as "broken and overpowered" when all you wanted to say was "psionics has loopholes and isn't perfectly flawless." Second, could you explain who, where and why you took so seriously anyone in the psionics board claiming that psionics was the end-all-be-all of a perfectly amalgamated set of rules for a magic-type system implimented into D&D? I love psionics as it lends itself quite well to gish style of play and I am a gish lover through and through, and having spent the last few hours of the evening reading this entire thread, the way you were posting things was, intentional or not, very frustrating. Arcane is breakable. Divine is breakable. Psionics is breakable. Hell, even melee characters can be breakable, if you go scope ot the char-op boards. That aside, why have you made it seem like you want someone (everybody?) in the psionics boards to come to your posts and specifically "admit" what everyone already knows, that psionics isn't perfect or flawless, and left entirely unchecked, can be broken by players that don't mind breaking a game rather than just sit and play with friends? Being civil to one and all here, just wanting you to clear the confusion that came about from your entire arguementative/debate methods of trying to get someone to admit that, YIDM.
RadicalTaoist 02-21-07, 07:10 PM	Now playing John Romero's classic: NIGHT OF THE LIVING THREAD *psst, thread's been dead for over a year*
Scion of Coldshard 02-21-07, 07:25 PM	*psst, thread's been dead for over a year* Well, it is true that the first and last post were both last year.. but... you might want to check the dates again ;)
RadicalTaoist 02-21-07, 10:30 PM	12-05-06, 09:39 AM That's Paradox's post. December 2006. Wait a second, it IS 2006, not 2005. D'oh.
syrinth 02-21-07, 10:46 PM	If it was.... December 2006... then it was... just under 3 months ago? *hoping I'm not crazy*
Artector 02-21-07, 11:03 PM	I think the point that's trying to be made is that there's no need to bring this thread up again. The debate's come and gone. I haven't seen YIDM for a long while, so there's not really anyone here to "defend" the position anymore. I'd rather overpoweredness of the system be discussed in the Myth Threads.
Bacris 02-21-07, 11:04 PM	Thread deaths happen when WizO's threaten warnings :) Regardless, I'm kind of glad this thread died - it really didn't prove anything that we didn't already know - namely that if you take aspects of the game to ludicrous lengths, you get ludicrous situations, and there are ways to do it with every aspect of the game.
Tinari 02-21-07, 11:30 PM	Whoa, wasn't my intentions of thread necromancy. I swear I didn't spend three months reading the thread. I swear... it was just almost three hours... Anyway, I didn't pay much attention to the date, but still managed to find the thread, and thought it was more recent. Shame on me for not being more perceptive. Fie on me, I say!
KurenaiYami 02-22-07, 01:16 AM	If it was.... December 2006... then it was... just under 3 months ago? *hoping I'm not crazy* Of course your crazy, but for totally different reasons.
syrinth 02-22-07, 01:17 AM	true, I kind of assume that goes without saying nowadays. XD
Tsuul 02-22-07, 07:06 PM	I'm trading in my usual phrase from the opening line of the "Altered beast" video game (Sega Genesis days) for a new one from Startwars. Vader...RISE!
madmonk 02-22-07, 10:31 PM	Ugh... this thread is overpowering :rolleyes: Seriously, what is this guy trying to do? He wants the entire psionic board side with him in a statement that would make us hypocrites? He repeatidely says he loves psionics, but when someone mentioned the brokeness of magic that, supposedly, everyone houserules, he begins to show hostility to the flaws in the XPH. And, he constantly sais we, the psionic board, probe him with facts that psionics is not overpowered by comparing 2 20 level character that take so long to create no one is bothering. Sorry man, at least I don't have that much free time in my hands... It ran out of it after reading this boring thread. The question: who does the most damage and, because of that,shows who is the most broken? The answer: who in the 9 hells cares?
Deekin 02-22-07, 11:41 PM	http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w247/kolboldbard/threadnecromancer0qh-1.jpg
unusualsuspect 02-22-07, 11:45 PM	I agree. Seriously, though, let the thread die. Please. I beg of everyone.
boxter 07-20-07, 04:49 PM	Oh my god, I just read the entire thread thanks to the necromancer who brought it on the first page I am stunned by the sheer stubborness of some people (I dont want to adress certain people here because I dont like warnings very much, lets just say I'm on the side of the people who defended psionics) Psionics is nowhere broken Well at least if you dont play with people who think the game consists of enemies who can be beaten by whacking them to the head :rolleyes:
angellis_ater 07-21-07, 09:33 AM	Dude - did you SEE the last date someone posted to this thread? February 23rd 2007 or some FIVE MONTHS ago. Why oh why!?