Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mooncalf 01-04-08, 10:31 PM	Not sure if this should be here or in Races... What would the LA be for this? I've compared it with the Trumpet Archon (since both are archon subtype), which has LA +8. The differences are thus: Trumpet Archon has 12 HD, while Sibyllic Guardian have 9. Ability scores are sum total the same, but Trumpet Archon has more in physical while Sibyllic Guardian has more in mental (charisma). SG has lower natural armor, only 12 compared to TA's 14. TA has a trumpet that can be used at will to paralyze foes, and can be transformed into a +4 greatsword. SG has a regular +2 greatsword. Both have almost the same spell-like abilities, though SG has Aid at will as well. TA casts spells as a 14th level cleric (higher than its HD). SG, on the other hand, has psi-like abilities; Brainlock, detect hosile intent, detect psionics, ego whip, mindlink and psionic teleport, all at will. (TA can greater teleport too.) dispel psionics, ectoplasmic coccoon and psionic fly, each 3/day. Second Chance 1/day. With this evidence... what would an appropriate LA be?
deadkoo 01-05-08, 06:55 PM	umm.... remember, you get an additional LA for each HD.. so the trumpet archon with a LA+8 and 12DH is a total of +20... so the minimum for the gaurdian is LA+9, but with the bonus'... I don't know, but those at will powers can be quite scary... I mean, teleport 30ft away right when your enemy charges you... I don't know what the CR for the gaurdian is, but (if I was DMing) I would say it would be between +16-18 total(not QUITE as powerful as the Archon, but still fuggin powerful..)
Tedronai 01-05-08, 08:28 PM	You're suggesting that a Sybillic Guardian is on par with the power level of a 16th to 18th level character of a standard race? I challenge that as absurd. This MIGHT justify a total ECL of 13 or 14, but no higher. And a Trumpet Archon? Would get eaten ALIVE in any 20th level campaign. It wouldn't even last through the first combat, and would probably fall in the first ROUND to a save-or-die, if not just pure damage.
Lokiyn 01-06-08, 12:19 PM	+9 is about where the game would put it. The monster is the rival of the evil Cerebrilith with roughly the same HD and CR and comparable abilities. I would place it a tad lower (6ish) but thats just me.
deadkoo 01-06-08, 12:26 PM	Ahem: Trumpet Archons abilities: Specials: Aura of menace, damage reduction 10/evil, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and petrification, magic circle against evil, spell resistance 29, teleport, tongues SR 29 is nothing to shake a stick at, immunity to elec and petri is handy, DR is always nice. Trumpet archons can cast divine spells as 14th-level clerics. Spell-Like Abilities At will—detect evil, continual flame, message. Caster level 12th. also, at a 21 DC will save or the enemy suffers a -2 to attacks, AC, and saves in a 20 ft radius. all that PLUS an avg of 126hp (12d8+72 with 23con). I have no idea what the trumpet archons ability mods are, but by his stats listed(Str 20, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 16) I assume they aint half bad. so yes, the LA of +8 along with 12hd means a total of +20ECL. "To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. " sorry, but thats the way it works. EDIT: P.S. most of the creatures in the MM's aren't really meant to be PC races... Trumpet archons for instance aren't really combat creatures...
Lokiyn 01-06-08, 12:49 PM	But thats not important, or rather, there are no hard line rules for level adjustment. If you wanted one, for example. You would look at the Cr/Exp table and look for equivalencies to pc level. For example, the game assumes that 4 people fighting an equal CR encounter will take 13 encounters to level up. So, for example A level 14 player is (with regards to experience gains) the equivalent to a CR 10 monster. This holds true for levels 4-20 at least, with Ecl 3 and below being a little off due to the lumped exp for low cr monsters. So logically if one wanted to calculate ECL the formula would be (CR + 4) - HD = Level Adjustment However this is further compounded by the problem that pc's exist for multiple encounters rather than a single encounter, so a the numbers have to be adjusted again, upwards. Which is them modified by special abilities that have greater effect in a pc's hands than an npc's hands, which then warrants another boost in ecl. Assigning Level Adjustment is an art rather than a science, however as a rule of thumb no monsters Ecl Should be less than 4 + its CR So in this case Ecl 13 However i still submit that the Sybrillic guardian is the equivalent of the Cerebrilith rather than a trumpet archon, citing the power that summons the two interchangeably for circumstances evidence that they are considered equal in power for game purposes
deadkoo 01-06-08, 01:10 PM	To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. that IS a hardline rule. I don't know how to do linky stuff, so here is the URL: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm don't mean to sound like a prick, but that is in the DMG as well... EDIT; for the record, I guess you could lower the ECL by lowering the HD the PC gains automatically, but then you would have to lower abilities and such... Savage species did this with a few races... also, based on your thoughts (pc lvl 14 being worth a CR 10 creature) would be fairly close to the ECL of the trumpet archon (20) to its CR(14)...
Lokiyn 01-06-08, 02:02 PM	Yes, it is a quote, and yes it is a rule, but its fairly irrelevant to the issue at hand. The problem is not determining ECL when given both hit dice and level adjust ment, thats easy. The issue at hand is determining the level adjustment to a monster that has neither ECL nor Level adjustment listed. The Guardian has 9HD and no La which is only exacerbated by the ignorant new formating for monsters. However given that the Guardian is One of two summons (Paired in the power Planar Champion with the Cerebrilith) you can look to its pair, what you find is that the Guardian and the Cerebrillith both have the Same Hit Dice + CR, Given that and the pairing in a power listing them together we can easily justify thier link and assigning the Guardian a Level Adjustment of +9 Identical to the Cerebrilith However the Cerebrilith and Guardian are summonable with a 7th level power, meaning that thier abilities are placed in the hands of Pc's at levels 13 & 14 when 7th level powers become available. Given all this it is fair to say that the Guardian and Cerebrilith's Ecl should fall somewhere between in the range of ECL 13 to ECL 18. I personally feel that 18 is balanced but not necessarily fair being on the weak end of balanced. Rather i would place thier ECL at 15. Around 15 is where most of thier abilities have been availible (teleport at will is what justifies a higher La for the two) and while giving pc's an edge wouldn't be out of reach of say a normal raced manifester. Especially given that neither of the two have any inherent manifesting, such as the unbodied or the Elder brains telepath levels.
deadkoo 01-06-08, 06:01 PM	ok, well I misread your earlier post and apologize. however, with your comparison, if the LA on the cerebilith is +9 and 9 HD thats 18, and dropping it to 15 might be a tad to much... I assumed between 16-18 originaly and stick to it myself. however, one of the greatest things about DnD, is that each person(DMs mainly) each get to make their rulings. cheers.