Landscaping With Energy X Powers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Landscaping With Energy X Powers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
InkBlot
04-19-07, 03:41 PM Collateral damage is something that often gets glossed over in the games I play in. I would like to change that.

Does anybody know any, or would help me create some, good guidelines for how much an energy X power could alter the battlefield? For example, how many 5d6 energy bolts would it take to dig a trench in the dirt 5 ft. deep by 120 ft. long? Is the hardness/hp of dirt listed anywhere?
Tempest Stormwind
04-19-07, 04:02 PM The hardness and HP of stone are listed, and I believe I saw earth listed somewhere. I know wood's listed at hardness 5. I'd estimate that average dirt is hardness 1 or 2, with about half as many hit points per inch of thickness as wood.

Do note that this is just an approximation, though.

Furthermore, energy powers are notoriously bad at damaging objects in general -- Fire and electricity are halved, cold is quartered, and all except sonic are affected by hardness AFTER this reduction (and the energy powers deal less damage with sonic than they do with others, and can actually do ZERO damage).

I hate to promote my own work (since people always seem to complain...) but I wrote a power for UTP that does landscaping quite well, as that's it's entire purpose -- Foxhole. In a nutshell, it psychokinetically digs a trench or shelter out of 4 5' squares (each much be adjacent to at least one other), piling the dirt on the outer rim for a quick source of cover. As such, it would take 5 manifestations to get the trench you're looking for, at one power point each. It's also shapeable, so you can get actual foxholes as well as trenches, and with augments it can dig tunnels or pits as well, or reshape firmer material. In very-close-range combat (20' range), it can even clear the earth under a target, possibly tripping it, or expose a burrowing creature. Basically, its nothing you couldn't do with shovels if you were incredibly fast. It also makes a mean sand castle. :)

(The worst abuse this power could be put to is digging a 20-foot-deep hole underneath someone, but that both requires an augment and has a rather pitiful reflex save to bypass in that case. Plus you have to be within 20', which isn't a good idea in general for most of the manifesters who have this power.)
InkBlot
04-19-07, 05:35 PM Okay, so if earth has 5 HP per inch (half the HP of wood), and sonic powers deal 2.5 damage per power point, then you need to spend 2 power points per inch of earth you want to blast through. This isn't looking good.

Using the above assumption, 22 power points are needed just to blast through 1 foot of earth. That's more than 2/3rds of all the power points a 5th level psion has (with 18 Int). This would require 5 standard actions at 5th level.

I just noticed that energy wall doesn't state that the sheet of energy must be vertical. If you place a sonic wall facing downward, it will vaporize a hole 10 feet deep in about 11 minutes. It will extend the hole down to 20 feet in another 22 minutes. 33 minutes and 5 power points to dig a 100+ foot long hole isn't bad, but still too slow for use durring combat.
Tempest Stormwind
04-19-07, 05:59 PM The other way to go is to look at spells that are supposed to deal environmental damage and derive what their stats must be from there. The BoVD's Apocalypse from the Sky comes to mind -- it explicitly says that its damage destroys forests and ruins fields and cities. Sadly, it's only 10d6 and it's all energy damage, so something must be amiss here. (It's also 9th level, hurts you every day you have it prepared, takes a day to cast, and has an artifact as its material component. On the plus side, it does have the biggest area of effect of any damage spell ever published, at something like ten miles per level.)
InkBlot
04-19-07, 06:03 PM Fire damage? It probably assumes that it starts fires, besides the fire damage the spell itself deals.
Tempest Stormwind
04-19-07, 06:12 PM Fire damage? It probably assumes that it starts fires, besides the fire damage the spell itself deals.

Fire or acid, actually, but it's instantaneous, so it doesn't start fires.

(It's been used to dish out insane damage on the CO boards, but it involved some odd cheese -- Snowcasting to give it the [Cold] descriptor, Energy Sub to change that to [Electricity] which allows Born of Three Thunders to apply, which gives the spell a Reflex save and thus allows Explosive Spell to be applied to it, along with a Widen Spell effect. Explosive Spell moves everything to the outer edge of the spell's area and deals extra damage based on the distance moved. This essentially turns the spell into a super-landscaper, as it pushes everything to the outer rim like flotsam. Presumably it would do this to trees and grass as well, resulting in barren and scorched (or acidic) earth, the D&D equivalent of a nuke. It's almost sad that a spell so epic needed such tweaking to get an epic effect.)
Thiez
04-19-07, 06:24 PM Fire or acid, actually, but it's instantaneous, so it doesn't start fires.

(It's been used to dish out insane damage on the CO boards, but it involved some odd cheese -- Snowcasting to give it the [Cold] descriptor, Energy Sub to change that to [Electricity] which allows Born of Three Thunders to apply, which gives the spell a Reflex save and thus allows Explosive Spell to be applied to it, along with a Widen Spell effect. Explosive Spell moves everything to the outer edge of the spell's area and deals extra damage based on the distance moved. This essentially turns the spell into a super-landscaper, as it pushes everything to the outer rim like flotsam. Presumably it would do this to trees and grass as well, resulting in barren and scorched (or acidic) earth, the D&D equivalent of a nuke. It's almost sad that a spell so epic needed such tweaking to get an epic effect.)

It is still 'SR: Yes'... so you're going to be confronted by a very angry mob of monks.
Tempest Stormwind
04-19-07, 06:29 PM It is still 'SR: Yes'... so you're going to be confronted by a very angry mob of monks.

Not if you use the shadow magic version, which is likely cast with Earth Spell involved, giving you about, oh.... auto-passing SR in the high 30s, low 40s, even on a 1? This also has the advantage of a standard-action (or full-round-action) casting time and no artifact or corrupt component.
RadicalTaoist
04-19-07, 06:38 PM The worst abuse of Apocalypse from the Sky would be its combination with CO guru Lord of Procrastionation's Nasty Gentlemen trick - acquiring tons of symbionts to abuse spells with spell sharing.

Apocalypse from the Sky is actually Personal targeting, which allows you to share it with your symbionts - effectively multiplying it for each on in your body - and there's no limit on how many symbionts you can have. On top, it's an [Evil] spell and the Soul Tick fiendish symbiont can automatically Empower [Evil] spells. The result was that without Explosive Spell or even any metamagic feats, you can cast an AftS that can leave a crater roughly the size of Ukraine.
Thiez
04-19-07, 06:42 PM Not if you use the shadow magic version, which is likely cast with Earth Spell involved, giving you about, oh.... auto-passing SR in the high 30s, low 40s, even on a 1? This also has the advantage of a standard-action (or full-round-action) casting time and no artifact or corrupt component.

:eek:

Accept me as your humble apprentice, oh master of CharOP'ing... :P
Jaid
04-19-07, 07:09 PM incidentally, i believe the stronghold builder's guide conveniently has stats for dirt walls. it is 3.0, but should apply imo.
Kanosint
04-19-07, 07:13 PM Alright, tell me again how to make that AftS effect, which books the stuff's from, and what level I need to be... It's... Delicious :3
Tempest Stormwind
04-19-07, 07:16 PM Alright, tell me again how to make that AftS effect, which books the stuff's from, and what level I need to be... It's... Delicious :3Enough off-topicking, but here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=734636) the one I mentioned, and here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=563976) the basic idea behind the one RT mentioned.incidentally, i believe the stronghold builder's guide conveniently has stats for dirt walls. it is 3.0, but should apply imo.Good eye, I believe it does. I'll check when I get home.
sir_dwar
04-21-07, 10:46 AM Wait... Wouldn't you have a ten miles/ level hole in the ground? Not to mention a lot of birds blown out of the sky?
InkBlot
04-21-07, 11:26 AM Fire or acid, actually, but it's instantaneous, so it doesn't start fires.
Instantaneous fire damage can start fires. 10d6 damage is as hot as the hotest fireball, and even a 5d6 fireball can start forest fires. Nothing says instant fire spells can't start fires, it makes sense that 2 or 3 seconds of intense heat can start a fire, and urban books (Sharn: City Of Towers, Cityscape) always recommend against using instant fire spells so you don't burn down the city.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
InkBlot 04-19-07, 03:41 PM	Collateral damage is something that often gets glossed over in the games I play in. I would like to change that. Does anybody know any, or would help me create some, good guidelines for how much an energy X power could alter the battlefield? For example, how many 5d6 energy bolts would it take to dig a trench in the dirt 5 ft. deep by 120 ft. long? Is the hardness/hp of dirt listed anywhere?
Tempest Stormwind 04-19-07, 04:02 PM	The hardness and HP of stone are listed, and I believe I saw earth listed somewhere. I know wood's listed at hardness 5. I'd estimate that average dirt is hardness 1 or 2, with about half as many hit points per inch of thickness as wood. Do note that this is just an approximation, though. Furthermore, energy powers are notoriously bad at damaging objects in general -- Fire and electricity are halved, cold is quartered, and all except sonic are affected by hardness AFTER this reduction (and the energy powers deal less damage with sonic than they do with others, and can actually do ZERO damage). I hate to promote my own work (since people always seem to complain...) but I wrote a power for UTP that does landscaping quite well, as that's it's entire purpose -- Foxhole. In a nutshell, it psychokinetically digs a trench or shelter out of 4 5' squares (each much be adjacent to at least one other), piling the dirt on the outer rim for a quick source of cover. As such, it would take 5 manifestations to get the trench you're looking for, at one power point each. It's also shapeable, so you can get actual foxholes as well as trenches, and with augments it can dig tunnels or pits as well, or reshape firmer material. In very-close-range combat (20' range), it can even clear the earth under a target, possibly tripping it, or expose a burrowing creature. Basically, its nothing you couldn't do with shovels if you were incredibly fast. It also makes a mean sand castle. :) (The worst abuse this power could be put to is digging a 20-foot-deep hole underneath someone, but that both requires an augment and has a rather pitiful reflex save to bypass in that case. Plus you have to be within 20', which isn't a good idea in general for most of the manifesters who have this power.)
InkBlot 04-19-07, 05:35 PM	Okay, so if earth has 5 HP per inch (half the HP of wood), and sonic powers deal 2.5 damage per power point, then you need to spend 2 power points per inch of earth you want to blast through. This isn't looking good. Using the above assumption, 22 power points are needed just to blast through 1 foot of earth. That's more than 2/3rds of all the power points a 5th level psion has (with 18 Int). This would require 5 standard actions at 5th level. I just noticed that energy wall doesn't state that the sheet of energy must be vertical. If you place a sonic wall facing downward, it will vaporize a hole 10 feet deep in about 11 minutes. It will extend the hole down to 20 feet in another 22 minutes. 33 minutes and 5 power points to dig a 100+ foot long hole isn't bad, but still too slow for use durring combat.
Tempest Stormwind 04-19-07, 05:59 PM	The other way to go is to look at spells that are supposed to deal environmental damage and derive what their stats must be from there. The BoVD's Apocalypse from the Sky comes to mind -- it explicitly says that its damage destroys forests and ruins fields and cities. Sadly, it's only 10d6 and it's all energy damage, so something must be amiss here. (It's also 9th level, hurts you every day you have it prepared, takes a day to cast, and has an artifact as its material component. On the plus side, it does have the biggest area of effect of any damage spell ever published, at something like ten miles per level.)
InkBlot 04-19-07, 06:03 PM	Fire damage? It probably assumes that it starts fires, besides the fire damage the spell itself deals.
Tempest Stormwind 04-19-07, 06:12 PM	Fire damage? It probably assumes that it starts fires, besides the fire damage the spell itself deals. Fire or acid, actually, but it's instantaneous, so it doesn't start fires. (It's been used to dish out insane damage on the CO boards, but it involved some odd cheese -- Snowcasting to give it the [Cold] descriptor, Energy Sub to change that to [Electricity] which allows Born of Three Thunders to apply, which gives the spell a Reflex save and thus allows Explosive Spell to be applied to it, along with a Widen Spell effect. Explosive Spell moves everything to the outer edge of the spell's area and deals extra damage based on the distance moved. This essentially turns the spell into a super-landscaper, as it pushes everything to the outer rim like flotsam. Presumably it would do this to trees and grass as well, resulting in barren and scorched (or acidic) earth, the D&D equivalent of a nuke. It's almost sad that a spell so epic needed such tweaking to get an epic effect.)
Thiez 04-19-07, 06:24 PM	Fire or acid, actually, but it's instantaneous, so it doesn't start fires. (It's been used to dish out insane damage on the CO boards, but it involved some odd cheese -- Snowcasting to give it the [Cold] descriptor, Energy Sub to change that to [Electricity] which allows Born of Three Thunders to apply, which gives the spell a Reflex save and thus allows Explosive Spell to be applied to it, along with a Widen Spell effect. Explosive Spell moves everything to the outer edge of the spell's area and deals extra damage based on the distance moved. This essentially turns the spell into a super-landscaper, as it pushes everything to the outer rim like flotsam. Presumably it would do this to trees and grass as well, resulting in barren and scorched (or acidic) earth, the D&D equivalent of a nuke. It's almost sad that a spell so epic needed such tweaking to get an epic effect.) It is still 'SR: Yes'... so you're going to be confronted by a very angry mob of monks.
Tempest Stormwind 04-19-07, 06:29 PM	It is still 'SR: Yes'... so you're going to be confronted by a very angry mob of monks. Not if you use the shadow magic version, which is likely cast with Earth Spell involved, giving you about, oh.... auto-passing SR in the high 30s, low 40s, even on a 1? This also has the advantage of a standard-action (or full-round-action) casting time and no artifact or corrupt component.
RadicalTaoist 04-19-07, 06:38 PM	The worst abuse of Apocalypse from the Sky would be its combination with CO guru Lord of Procrastionation's Nasty Gentlemen trick - acquiring tons of symbionts to abuse spells with spell sharing. Apocalypse from the Sky is actually Personal targeting, which allows you to share it with your symbionts - effectively multiplying it for each on in your body - and there's no limit on how many symbionts you can have. On top, it's an [Evil] spell and the Soul Tick fiendish symbiont can automatically Empower [Evil] spells. The result was that without Explosive Spell or even any metamagic feats, you can cast an AftS that can leave a crater roughly the size of Ukraine.
Thiez 04-19-07, 06:42 PM	Not if you use the shadow magic version, which is likely cast with Earth Spell involved, giving you about, oh.... auto-passing SR in the high 30s, low 40s, even on a 1? This also has the advantage of a standard-action (or full-round-action) casting time and no artifact or corrupt component. :eek: Accept me as your humble apprentice, oh master of CharOP'ing... :P
Jaid 04-19-07, 07:09 PM	incidentally, i believe the stronghold builder's guide conveniently has stats for dirt walls. it is 3.0, but should apply imo.
Kanosint 04-19-07, 07:13 PM	Alright, tell me again how to make that AftS effect, which books the stuff's from, and what level I need to be... It's... Delicious :3
Tempest Stormwind 04-19-07, 07:16 PM	Alright, tell me again how to make that AftS effect, which books the stuff's from, and what level I need to be... It's... Delicious :3Enough off-topicking, but here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=734636) the one I mentioned, and here's (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=563976) the basic idea behind the one RT mentioned.incidentally, i believe the stronghold builder's guide conveniently has stats for dirt walls. it is 3.0, but should apply imo.Good eye, I believe it does. I'll check when I get home.
sir_dwar 04-21-07, 10:46 AM	Wait... Wouldn't you have a ten miles/ level hole in the ground? Not to mention a lot of birds blown out of the sky?
InkBlot 04-21-07, 11:26 AM	Fire or acid, actually, but it's instantaneous, so it doesn't start fires. Instantaneous fire damage can start fires. 10d6 damage is as hot as the hotest fireball, and even a 5d6 fireball can start forest fires. Nothing says instant fire spells can't start fires, it makes sense that 2 or 3 seconds of intense heat can start a fire, and urban books (Sharn: City Of Towers, Cityscape) always recommend against using instant fire spells so you don't burn down the city.