Larval Flayers vs Undead Intelligence [Archive] - Wizards Community

Larval Flayers vs Undead Intelligence [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
echoota
07-20-07, 10:20 AM So in reading the undead entry in MM that for the most part undead are immune to effects that drain or damage ability scores. However in terms of damage it's only the physical ones (strength, dexterity, and constitution) which undead are immune to. Evidently you can zap them with the mental stuff.

So, at least from my reading, if you manifest some larval flayers (p133 of Complete Psionic) on a lich and they crawl up and start slurping up his desicated and rotting brain then he's going to be affected.

Is there anything wrong with this reading?
Jaid
07-20-07, 12:01 PM Constitution
Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).so yes, there is something wrong with that ruling.
Bozeroth
07-20-07, 12:12 PM And yet:

Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.

The rules contradict each other. The specific entry for Undead probably takes precedent, but really it's up to your DM.

Aside from that, it's also up to your DM whether or not larval flayers would eat undead brain matter. Personally, I'd say no, but that's just my opinion.
Polaris
07-20-07, 12:16 PM And yet:
The rules contradict each other. The specific entry for Undead probably takes precedent, but really it's up to your DM.

Actually the rules don't contradict each other. It's just that the entry under undead is redundant. Obviously a being with no con score can't have it's physicial ability scores damaged because none of them can be damaged.

-Polaris
Red_Decker
07-20-07, 12:25 PM Since when do Undead have constitution anyway.

Yeah it's redundant.

http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
CrimsonDeath
07-20-07, 05:06 PM However, there are specific effects that can do Charisma damage to undead. For example, a Sacred weapon (Libris Mortis) deals one Charisma damage per round to any undead that wields it, and a Sacred Burst weapon deals an additional 1d4 Charisma damage to any undead wielding it when it scores a critical hit. It would be very odd if undead were categorically immune to an effect that applies only to them.
HighPriestMikhal
07-20-07, 06:50 PM However, there are specific effects that can do Charisma damage to undead. For example, a Sacred weapon (Libris Mortis) deals one Charisma damage per round to any undead that wields it, and a Sacred Burst weapon deals an additional 1d4 Charisma damage to any undead wielding it when it scores a critical hit. It would be very odd if undead were categorically immune to an effect that applies only to them.

Keep in mind that Sacred and Sacred Burst are functions of positive energy on negative energy (see the thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=882838) I started in the Monsters section). Larval flayers don't quite seem like positive energy effects to me.
CrimsonDeath
07-20-07, 08:38 PM Keep in mind that Sacred and Sacred Burst are functions of positive energy on negative energy (see the thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=882838) I started in the Monsters section). Larval flayers don't quite seem like positive energy effects to me.
Regardless, it should not bypass type-based or type-dependent immunity without specifically calling that out as one of its effects. Since the Sacred and Sacred Burst weapon properties simply state that they do Charisma damage to undead, without overriding any rule that doing so is normally impossible, it seems safe to infer that it's normally possible. Contrast this with positoxins (from the same book), which specifically override the normal undead immunity to Strength and Dexterity damage.

I think the reason one normally doesn't see undead receiving mental ability damage is because such effects are typically the result of mind-affecting effects (such as Ego Whip or Touch of Idiocy) or poisons, to which undead are immune for other reasons.

I believe a DM might be justified in ruling that undead are immune to Intelligence damage from larval flayers, however, due to the undead immunity to critical hits (due to a lack of discernible anatomy) and the fact that the larval flayers' Intelligence damage is the result of devouring portions of the victim's brain (a specific internal organ).
AntiDjinn
07-20-07, 08:57 PM It really doesn't matter if a lich's desiccated brain matter gets eaten. It is not like those neurons are even firing and his consciousness doesn't reside there anymore. In fact, if said lich progressed to the status of a demilich, it might be reduced to just a skeletal hand and still have its full intellect.

The book The Illithid actually discussed the fact that mind flayers can not consume the brains of undead and gain any benefit; dead brains no longer produce neuropeptides, neurotransmitters, or hormones.
HighPriestMikhal
07-20-07, 10:31 PM It really doesn't matter if a lich's desiccated brain matter gets eaten. It is not like those neurons are even firing and his consciousness doesn't reside there anymore. In fact, if said lich progressed to the status of a demilich, it might be reduced to just a skeletal hand and still have its full intellect.

Exactly my point. Liches don't exactly gain any benefit from their host body other than mobility and a physical form. Other undead might be vulnerable--I could imagine a vampire, since it has its original body. This is really one for the DM to make individual calls on.
CrimsonDeath
07-20-07, 11:13 PM Exactly my point. Liches don't exactly gain any benefit from their host body other than mobility and a physical form. Other undead might be vulnerable--I could imagine a vampire, since it has its original body. This is really one for the DM to make individual calls on.
Now that I think of it, vampires may be the only undead vulnerable to the larval flayers' Intelligence brain, since the description of the Vorpal weapon quality states that almost all undead (with vampires as the only noted exception) function perfectly well without a head.
Bozeroth
07-23-07, 03:37 PM Actually the rules don't contradict each other. It's just that the entry under undead is redundant. Obviously a being with no con score can't have it's physicial ability scores damaged because none of them can be damaged.

-Polaris

Not necessarily. It could be an exception to the normal consequences of lacking a Con score. Hence why I said it's up to the DM, since it's really a matter of interpretation.

By your logic, Warforged get +20 hit points at level one, since they don't specifically say they don't. (the effects of being a Medium Construct). If you want to play that way, hey cool. But there are multiple, equally valid interpretations of rules in many cases.
Polaris
07-23-07, 03:50 PM Not necessarily. It could be an exception to the normal consequences of lacking a Con score. Hence why I said it's up to the DM, since it's really a matter of interpretation.

Um no. If it were an exception to the normal rule than it would say so.

By your logic, Warforged get +20 hit points at level one, since they don't specifically say they don't. (the effects of being a Medium Construct). If you want to play that way, hey cool. But there are multiple, equally valid interpretations of rules in many cases.

Warforged are not constructs. They are a closely related by different type of creature called a living construct. The Construct rules specifically state that constructs gain the extra hit points because they are not living. The rules for Warforged specifically state otherwise (that they are living).

-Polaris
InkBlot
07-23-07, 04:17 PM Warforged are constructs. They are constructs with the living construct subtype.
Polaris
07-23-07, 11:39 PM Warforged are constructs. They are constructs with the living construct subtype.

Ah, but in the Monster Manual, it specifically says that constructs gain bonus hit points because they are made of non-living matter, and the 'living construct sub-type' explicitly says otherwise for all those with this subtype (i.e. they are made of living matter). Ergo, warforged gain no bonus hit points.

-Polaris
Slagger the Chuul
07-24-07, 12:12 AM Ah, but in the Monster Manual, it specifically says that constructs gain bonus hit points because they are made of non-living matter, and the 'living construct sub-type' explicitly says otherwise for all those with this subtype (i.e. they are made of living matter). Ergo, warforged gain no bonus hit points.

To put it more clearly, the subtype (as described in the Monster Manual III) explicitly states that living constructs do not gain bonus hit points from size.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
echoota 07-20-07, 10:20 AM	So in reading the undead entry in MM that for the most part undead are immune to effects that drain or damage ability scores. However in terms of damage it's only the physical ones (strength, dexterity, and constitution) which undead are immune to. Evidently you can zap them with the mental stuff. So, at least from my reading, if you manifest some larval flayers (p133 of Complete Psionic) on a lich and they crawl up and start slurping up his desicated and rotting brain then he's going to be affected. Is there anything wrong with this reading?
Jaid 07-20-07, 12:01 PM	Constitution Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).so yes, there is something wrong with that ruling.
Bozeroth 07-20-07, 12:12 PM	And yet: Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects. The rules contradict each other. The specific entry for Undead probably takes precedent, but really it's up to your DM. Aside from that, it's also up to your DM whether or not larval flayers would eat undead brain matter. Personally, I'd say no, but that's just my opinion.
Polaris 07-20-07, 12:16 PM	And yet: The rules contradict each other. The specific entry for Undead probably takes precedent, but really it's up to your DM. Actually the rules don't contradict each other. It's just that the entry under undead is redundant. Obviously a being with no con score can't have it's physicial ability scores damaged because none of them can be damaged. -Polaris
Red_Decker 07-20-07, 12:25 PM	Since when do Undead have constitution anyway. Yeah it's redundant. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
CrimsonDeath 07-20-07, 05:06 PM	However, there are specific effects that can do Charisma damage to undead. For example, a Sacred weapon (Libris Mortis) deals one Charisma damage per round to any undead that wields it, and a Sacred Burst weapon deals an additional 1d4 Charisma damage to any undead wielding it when it scores a critical hit. It would be very odd if undead were categorically immune to an effect that applies only to them.
HighPriestMikhal 07-20-07, 06:50 PM	However, there are specific effects that can do Charisma damage to undead. For example, a Sacred weapon (Libris Mortis) deals one Charisma damage per round to any undead that wields it, and a Sacred Burst weapon deals an additional 1d4 Charisma damage to any undead wielding it when it scores a critical hit. It would be very odd if undead were categorically immune to an effect that applies only to them. Keep in mind that Sacred and Sacred Burst are functions of positive energy on negative energy (see the thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=882838) I started in the Monsters section). Larval flayers don't quite seem like positive energy effects to me.
CrimsonDeath 07-20-07, 08:38 PM	Keep in mind that Sacred and Sacred Burst are functions of positive energy on negative energy (see the thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=882838) I started in the Monsters section). Larval flayers don't quite seem like positive energy effects to me. Regardless, it should not bypass type-based or type-dependent immunity without specifically calling that out as one of its effects. Since the Sacred and Sacred Burst weapon properties simply state that they do Charisma damage to undead, without overriding any rule that doing so is normally impossible, it seems safe to infer that it's normally possible. Contrast this with positoxins (from the same book), which specifically override the normal undead immunity to Strength and Dexterity damage. I think the reason one normally doesn't see undead receiving mental ability damage is because such effects are typically the result of mind-affecting effects (such as Ego Whip or Touch of Idiocy) or poisons, to which undead are immune for other reasons. I believe a DM might be justified in ruling that undead are immune to Intelligence damage from larval flayers, however, due to the undead immunity to critical hits (due to a lack of discernible anatomy) and the fact that the larval flayers' Intelligence damage is the result of devouring portions of the victim's brain (a specific internal organ).
AntiDjinn 07-20-07, 08:57 PM	It really doesn't matter if a lich's desiccated brain matter gets eaten. It is not like those neurons are even firing and his consciousness doesn't reside there anymore. In fact, if said lich progressed to the status of a demilich, it might be reduced to just a skeletal hand and still have its full intellect. The book The Illithid actually discussed the fact that mind flayers can not consume the brains of undead and gain any benefit; dead brains no longer produce neuropeptides, neurotransmitters, or hormones.
HighPriestMikhal 07-20-07, 10:31 PM	It really doesn't matter if a lich's desiccated brain matter gets eaten. It is not like those neurons are even firing and his consciousness doesn't reside there anymore. In fact, if said lich progressed to the status of a demilich, it might be reduced to just a skeletal hand and still have its full intellect. Exactly my point. Liches don't exactly gain any benefit from their host body other than mobility and a physical form. Other undead might be vulnerable--I could imagine a vampire, since it has its original body. This is really one for the DM to make individual calls on.
CrimsonDeath 07-20-07, 11:13 PM	Exactly my point. Liches don't exactly gain any benefit from their host body other than mobility and a physical form. Other undead might be vulnerable--I could imagine a vampire, since it has its original body. This is really one for the DM to make individual calls on. Now that I think of it, vampires may be the only undead vulnerable to the larval flayers' Intelligence brain, since the description of the Vorpal weapon quality states that almost all undead (with vampires as the only noted exception) function perfectly well without a head.
Bozeroth 07-23-07, 03:37 PM	Actually the rules don't contradict each other. It's just that the entry under undead is redundant. Obviously a being with no con score can't have it's physicial ability scores damaged because none of them can be damaged. -Polaris Not necessarily. It could be an exception to the normal consequences of lacking a Con score. Hence why I said it's up to the DM, since it's really a matter of interpretation. By your logic, Warforged get +20 hit points at level one, since they don't specifically say they don't. (the effects of being a Medium Construct). If you want to play that way, hey cool. But there are multiple, equally valid interpretations of rules in many cases.
Polaris 07-23-07, 03:50 PM	Not necessarily. It could be an exception to the normal consequences of lacking a Con score. Hence why I said it's up to the DM, since it's really a matter of interpretation. Um no. If it were an exception to the normal rule than it would say so. By your logic, Warforged get +20 hit points at level one, since they don't specifically say they don't. (the effects of being a Medium Construct). If you want to play that way, hey cool. But there are multiple, equally valid interpretations of rules in many cases. Warforged are not constructs. They are a closely related by different type of creature called a living construct. The Construct rules specifically state that constructs gain the extra hit points because they are not living. The rules for Warforged specifically state otherwise (that they are living). -Polaris
InkBlot 07-23-07, 04:17 PM	Warforged are constructs. They are constructs with the living construct subtype.
Polaris 07-23-07, 11:39 PM	Warforged are constructs. They are constructs with the living construct subtype. Ah, but in the Monster Manual, it specifically says that constructs gain bonus hit points because they are made of non-living matter, and the 'living construct sub-type' explicitly says otherwise for all those with this subtype (i.e. they are made of living matter). Ergo, warforged gain no bonus hit points. -Polaris
Slagger the Chuul 07-24-07, 12:12 AM	Ah, but in the Monster Manual, it specifically says that constructs gain bonus hit points because they are made of non-living matter, and the 'living construct sub-type' explicitly says otherwise for all those with this subtype (i.e. they are made of living matter). Ergo, warforged gain no bonus hit points. To put it more clearly, the subtype (as described in the Monster Manual III) explicitly states that living constructs do not gain bonus hit points from size.