Let's Talk Dispel Psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Let's Talk Dispel Psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
moebius00
10-23-07, 08:16 PM There appears to be a nice, nice sweet spot in the game for Psions of moderate levels: At 10th level, you can manifest a 10-point Dispel Psionics and get a +20 dispel check (you get a free augment to +10 and another 5 points of augment paid augment for another +10), which is equivalent to a 20th level caster.

1. Is this legal? The proper interpretation? Has there been an errata?
2. How crazy/great is this? If you use "Psionics is the same", there's a nice bump from 6th-19th where you're outclassing other core magic users at debuffing.
Suspect_Unusual
10-23-07, 11:32 PM 1. Yes, technically. It's widely regarded as meant to mimic Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic - you'll notice that the unaugmented Dispel Psionics has a maximum bonus of +10. A fully augmented Dispel Psionics costs 10 pp and has a maximum bonus of +20. A 3rd level Dispel Magic has a maximum bonus of +10. A 6th level (11 pp equivalent... slightly off) Greater Dispel magic has a maximum bonus of +20.

By the Practical Commandments of Optimization and (fairly) common sense, it's pretty clear what the augmentation is supposed to do: Allow the manifester check to go above the 10 limit when your manifester level is above 10. I'd rule it that way in any games I ran, and i'm going to convince my DM to do the same for his campaign, despite it benefitting my character as-is.

So, yes you interpret the RAW correctly. Yes, it's normally considered a mistake overlooked in the errata. Yes, if your DM allows it, it kicks ass at debuffing. Good luck finding a DM to let that happen.
moebius00
10-24-07, 09:14 AM So, yes you interpret the RAW correctly. Yes, it's normally considered a mistake overlooked in the errata. Yes, if your DM allows it, it kicks ass at debuffing. Good luck finding a DM to let that happen.

Too late...my DM is pretty strictly RAW, so I am the official party de-buffer. He basically threw every RAW Dispel mitigator he could think of last session against me...and I still stripped the mini-boss of all his buffs in one action. I actually felt a little bad about it.

Even if you were to say that a character couldn't augment until they went past level 10, the minute you hit level 11 your Dispel Check is +20...as the bonus is governed by the amount of PP you spend, not your level.
Suspect_Unusual
10-24-07, 12:40 PM Too late...my DM is pretty strictly RAW, so I am the official party de-buffer. He basically threw every RAW Dispel mitigator he could think of last session against me...and I still stripped the mini-boss of all his buffs in one action. I actually felt a little bad about it.

Even if you were to say that a character couldn't augment until they went past level 10, the minute you hit level 11 your Dispel Check is +20...as the bonus is governed by the amount of PP you spend, not your level.

That's nice for you. What I'm saying is that the Dispel Check should have a maximum bonus of your level, even after augmentation. That's how a lot of people I know play it as well, because, well, otherwise you end up with a Dispel Check that tears through magical defenses many, many ELs above you.
mod5000
10-25-07, 02:26 PM One thing that ticks me off a little is the fact that you cannot "counter-power" with Dispel Psionics, and in the games I run I allow it to be used as such. Has anyone else used this house-rule?
InkBlot
10-25-07, 02:55 PM Counterspelling is pretty useless anyway. Just ready an action to blast the psion with a damaging power, and he'll have to make a concentration check DC so high that he'll think twice about thinking those nasty things at you. AND he'll take hit point damage to boot!

Level ten, you can blast for 10d6+10*. That's, on average, a DC 45 concentration check.

*With one of the umpteen-bazillion energy x powers.
CrimsonDeath
10-25-07, 03:00 PM One thing that ticks me off a little is the fact that you cannot "counter-power" with Dispel Psionics, and in the games I run I allow it to be used as such. Has anyone else used this house-rule?

Normally, you can't "counter-power" regardless of what's going on, even if you successfully identify an opposing psion's power and know the same power yourself. The only exception I know of is the Anticipate Power feat from Hyperconscious.

I had a DM who tried it once because he didn't know it wasn't normally possible. Personally, I think if you're going to allow countering with Dispel Psionics, you should allow it for people who know the power involved.
Suspect_Unusual
10-25-07, 03:27 PM Counterspelling is pretty useless anyway. Just ready an action to blast the psion with a damaging power, and he'll have to make a concentration check DC so high that he'll think twice about thinking those nasty things at you. AND he'll take hit point damage to boot!

Level ten, you can blast for 10d6+10. That's, on average, a DC 45 concentration check.

Isn't the DC 10 + damage dealt, or average DC 55?
InkBlot
10-25-07, 03:56 PM *flips open a book*
*reads*
You are correct, sir! It would be DC 55.

The psion you're interrupting would need a +35 to his concentration in order to not lose his power on a roll of a natural 20. If he has max ranks, then he'd still need another +22 between his Con modifier and other miscellaneous modifiers. Lets say he has a +4 con mod, skill focus (concentration), the +2/+2 feat for concentration and whatever, psionic skill user for concentration and two other skills (psicraft and knowledge psionics probably), and a +10 concentration item. That's another +22, for a total of +35.

Unless the interrupted psion has maxed out his concentration check modifier, it's going to be literally impossible for him to use his power successfully. Even if he has maxed it out, there's only a slim chance.

"Disintegrate is my counter-power."
mod5000
10-25-07, 06:27 PM Weird... so I'm the only one that does that?
Should I change that, or do you think it's not too overpowered allowing it to be used like Dispel Magic as far as countering other powers?
Suspect_Unusual
10-25-07, 07:00 PM Weird... so I'm the only one that does that?
Should I change that, or do you think it's not too overpowered allowing it to be used like Dispel Magic as far as countering other powers?

We... just established that you'll probably have better odds using a power of the same power point cost, given the concentration DC you can get... Plus, you damage the foe at the same time?

Suffice to say, no, it isn't overpowered.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
moebius00 10-23-07, 08:16 PM	There appears to be a nice, nice sweet spot in the game for Psions of moderate levels: At 10th level, you can manifest a 10-point Dispel Psionics and get a +20 dispel check (you get a free augment to +10 and another 5 points of augment paid augment for another +10), which is equivalent to a 20th level caster. 1. Is this legal? The proper interpretation? Has there been an errata? 2. How crazy/great is this? If you use "Psionics is the same", there's a nice bump from 6th-19th where you're outclassing other core magic users at debuffing.
Suspect_Unusual 10-23-07, 11:32 PM	1. Yes, technically. It's widely regarded as meant to mimic Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic - you'll notice that the unaugmented Dispel Psionics has a maximum bonus of +10. A fully augmented Dispel Psionics costs 10 pp and has a maximum bonus of +20. A 3rd level Dispel Magic has a maximum bonus of +10. A 6th level (11 pp equivalent... slightly off) Greater Dispel magic has a maximum bonus of +20. By the Practical Commandments of Optimization and (fairly) common sense, it's pretty clear what the augmentation is supposed to do: Allow the manifester check to go above the 10 limit when your manifester level is above 10. I'd rule it that way in any games I ran, and i'm going to convince my DM to do the same for his campaign, despite it benefitting my character as-is. So, yes you interpret the RAW correctly. Yes, it's normally considered a mistake overlooked in the errata. Yes, if your DM allows it, it kicks ass at debuffing. Good luck finding a DM to let that happen.
moebius00 10-24-07, 09:14 AM	So, yes you interpret the RAW correctly. Yes, it's normally considered a mistake overlooked in the errata. Yes, if your DM allows it, it kicks ass at debuffing. Good luck finding a DM to let that happen. Too late...my DM is pretty strictly RAW, so I am the official party de-buffer. He basically threw every RAW Dispel mitigator he could think of last session against me...and I still stripped the mini-boss of all his buffs in one action. I actually felt a little bad about it. Even if you were to say that a character couldn't augment until they went past level 10, the minute you hit level 11 your Dispel Check is +20...as the bonus is governed by the amount of PP you spend, not your level.
Suspect_Unusual 10-24-07, 12:40 PM	Too late...my DM is pretty strictly RAW, so I am the official party de-buffer. He basically threw every RAW Dispel mitigator he could think of last session against me...and I still stripped the mini-boss of all his buffs in one action. I actually felt a little bad about it. Even if you were to say that a character couldn't augment until they went past level 10, the minute you hit level 11 your Dispel Check is +20...as the bonus is governed by the amount of PP you spend, not your level. That's nice for you. What I'm saying is that the Dispel Check should have a maximum bonus of your level, even after augmentation. That's how a lot of people I know play it as well, because, well, otherwise you end up with a Dispel Check that tears through magical defenses many, many ELs above you.
mod5000 10-25-07, 02:26 PM	One thing that ticks me off a little is the fact that you cannot "counter-power" with Dispel Psionics, and in the games I run I allow it to be used as such. Has anyone else used this house-rule?
InkBlot 10-25-07, 02:55 PM	Counterspelling is pretty useless anyway. Just ready an action to blast the psion with a damaging power, and he'll have to make a concentration check DC so high that he'll think twice about thinking those nasty things at you. AND he'll take hit point damage to boot! Level ten, you can blast for 10d6+10. That's, on average, a DC 45 concentration check. With one of the umpteen-bazillion energy x powers.
CrimsonDeath 10-25-07, 03:00 PM	One thing that ticks me off a little is the fact that you cannot "counter-power" with Dispel Psionics, and in the games I run I allow it to be used as such. Has anyone else used this house-rule? Normally, you can't "counter-power" regardless of what's going on, even if you successfully identify an opposing psion's power and know the same power yourself. The only exception I know of is the Anticipate Power feat from Hyperconscious. I had a DM who tried it once because he didn't know it wasn't normally possible. Personally, I think if you're going to allow countering with Dispel Psionics, you should allow it for people who know the power involved.
Suspect_Unusual 10-25-07, 03:27 PM	Counterspelling is pretty useless anyway. Just ready an action to blast the psion with a damaging power, and he'll have to make a concentration check DC so high that he'll think twice about thinking those nasty things at you. AND he'll take hit point damage to boot! Level ten, you can blast for 10d6+10. That's, on average, a DC 45 concentration check. Isn't the DC 10 + damage dealt, or average DC 55?
InkBlot 10-25-07, 03:56 PM	flips open a book reads You are correct, sir! It would be DC 55. The psion you're interrupting would need a +35 to his concentration in order to not lose his power on a roll of a natural 20. If he has max ranks, then he'd still need another +22 between his Con modifier and other miscellaneous modifiers. Lets say he has a +4 con mod, skill focus (concentration), the +2/+2 feat for concentration and whatever, psionic skill user for concentration and two other skills (psicraft and knowledge psionics probably), and a +10 concentration item. That's another +22, for a total of +35. Unless the interrupted psion has maxed out his concentration check modifier, it's going to be literally impossible for him to use his power successfully. Even if he has maxed it out, there's only a slim chance. "Disintegrate is my counter-power."
mod5000 10-25-07, 06:27 PM	Weird... so I'm the only one that does that? Should I change that, or do you think it's not too overpowered allowing it to be used like Dispel Magic as far as countering other powers?
Suspect_Unusual 10-25-07, 07:00 PM	Weird... so I'm the only one that does that? Should I change that, or do you think it's not too overpowered allowing it to be used like Dispel Magic as far as countering other powers? We... just established that you'll probably have better odds using a power of the same power point cost, given the concentration DC you can get... Plus, you damage the foe at the same time? Suffice to say, no, it isn't overpowered.