Lich? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Lich? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hadan
08-16-07, 06:58 AM Is it possible for a psion to become a lich if he only takes levels as a psion?
SlanderPanic
08-16-07, 10:09 AM Nope.
Water_To_Fire
08-16-07, 11:14 AM The psionic lich, aka Spectral Savant is found in Complete Psionic. I believe there's another version in Untapped Potential.
SlanderPanic
08-16-07, 02:06 PM The savant's more of a psionic vampire than a psionic lich, though. They can't regain power points on their own, so they have to drain them from other minds. Unlike a lich, which is just fine with hiding away from the world for centuries, a spectral savant needs to be around other people and, the more powerful the savant becomes, the more powerful creatures (or the larger number of weak creatures) it needs to feed from.

In this way, the savant is a lame-duck creature. Think about how many power points your characters blow through in a day of adventuring. No big deal. It's your daily allotment. Eight hours of rest and a minute of meditation and you get them all back. But, if that's all the power points you have without resorting to attacking other powerful psionic creatures and getting close enough for physical contact, you're going to be a lot more stingy with those powers. I can see why a lot of spectral savants might become cerebremancers, simply so they can have access to a source of power which doesn't lead them into danger. (Also, dweomer of transference would make a spectral savant's life a lot easier. If you run out of power points, you can retreat, cast the spell, then toss all your remaining spells for the day into your dweomer. The next day, you prepare spells again and you're good to go.)

Why anyone would actually want to become a spectral savant is beyond me. Maybe there'll be a decent psionic lich in 4e.
Tempest Stormwind
08-16-07, 02:09 PM Why anyone would actually want to become a spectral savant is beyond me.

Because if you know Shadow Eft, you have unlimited power points.
Thegans
08-16-07, 02:27 PM Is it possible for a psion to become a lich if he only takes levels as a psion?

Astral Seed and Mind Switch can replicate the effects of a lich close enough. Just not the undead part.
Racinante
08-16-07, 03:20 PM If Thoughts Could Kill (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_TCKpreview) also has one that is available as a preview on the ptolus web site.
Halaku
08-16-07, 03:33 PM Because if you know Shadow Eft, you have unlimited power points.

Beat me to it, but Planar Champion works just as well.
CrimsonDeath
08-16-07, 03:47 PM Actually, could a level 11 manifester with Craft Universal Item create a phylactery, according to the transparency rules in the Magic Item Compendium?
jbsaff
08-16-07, 04:10 PM I thought Tempest had come up with an interesting "Psionic Lich" template a while back. It appears to have made it into Untapped Potential (Mindborn template) though a search of the boards may uncover the initial concept.
SlanderPanic
08-16-07, 04:40 PM Isn't the Mindborn more like an advanced version of an elan than a lich? (It's been a little while since I've looked at it.)

I've given thought about turning some of the various undead types from Dark Sun into 3.5 templates. I know it's been done, but I honestly don't like Athas.org's stuff. It'd be interesting to pull out a kaisharga next time my players head for the Crescent Kingdom.
Bacris
08-16-07, 04:42 PM Tempest created the Mindborn initially as "you want your psionic lich? fine!" and made the mindborn - it's a psionic equivalent to a lich, without being a "psionic lich"

It therefore doesn't suffer from Psionic X syndrome :)
jbsaff
08-16-07, 04:55 PM Isn't the Mindborn more like an advanced version of an elan than a lich? (It's been a little while since I've looked at it.)

I suppose that would depend on what you considered the hallmarks of lichdom. Mindborn share a similar "kill the body, then the soul container" type of mechanic. IIRC, the Mindborn was an excercise in exploring a psionic version of something with resorting to just slapping the word "Psionic" on the front. Should a "psionic lich" be undead? It could be, but we already have liches that use that path/mechanic/flavor.

And while I attempt to perfect the wording on my post, Bacris ninja'd me with a simple and direct response... My forum-fu is so weak.
SlanderPanic
08-16-07, 04:55 PM It is a cool template. It's just not scary. On a related note, that's something I always liked about Dark Sun undead. Not only were they cool looking, they were also unique. No undead is the same as any other undead, even if they're of the same sort. One kaisharga might be incorporeal but powerless in sunlight, while another could be covered in spiked chitin and able to use wail of the banshee as a spell-like ability. One could be a defiler. One could be a gladiator.
Bacris
08-16-07, 04:57 PM And while I attempt to perfect the wording on my post, Bacris ninja'd me with a simple and direct response... My forum-fu is so weak.

You can't fix what you don't acknowledge!

Thanks, Dr Phil! :)
BobBarker
08-16-07, 05:02 PM It'd be interesting to pull out a kaisharga next time my players head for the Crescent Kingdom.
I get the feeling that if I knew what a kaisharga was, I would be a lot more worried right now...
jbsaff
08-16-07, 05:06 PM **Note to self: With UTP in hand, must replace cliched "lich summoning outsider of DOOOOM" in campaign with a Mindborn-related plotline.

Now I just have to figure out why a being without a body cares about what the players are doing...
SlanderPanic
08-16-07, 09:40 PM I get the feeling that if I knew what a kaisharga was, I would be a lot more worried right now...

You bet your ass you would be. MWAhahahahaaa.
CrimsonDeath
08-17-07, 04:31 PM **Note to self: With UTP in hand, must replace cliched "lich summoning outsider of DOOOOM" in campaign with a Mindborn-related plotline.

Now I just have to figure out why a being without a body cares about what the players are doing...
Maybe he loves his incorporeal existence so much that he wants to share it with everyone!
Lycanthromancer
08-19-07, 08:39 PM Maybe he loves his incorporeal existence so much that he wants to share it with everyone!
:bl: I....ain't got no body. And nobody cares for me. :bl:
CrimsonDeath
08-20-07, 03:08 AM :bl: I....ain't got no body. And nobody cares for me. :bl:
Maybe he was originally a gnome? Because...

:bl:Short people ain't got no-body...:bl:
(Sorry, seven consecutive years of Chorus...)
ElecTech
08-20-07, 03:17 AM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b

This is the closest thing that I could personally think of as a replacement for the psionic lich. It is an old 3.0 psion class from the minds eye archives

The Grim Psion.
SlanderPanic
08-20-07, 10:27 AM Thank goodness for Dreamblade. I love the :bl: :dbl: :mbl: :dmbl: symbols, even if the game isn't so great. (I also love the :m: symbol, but that's wholly unrelated.)
Knight0
08-20-07, 12:49 PM I agree with crimsondeath
Actually, could a level 11 manifester with Craft Universal Item create a phylactery, according to the transparency rules in the Magic Item Compendium?
Can't you just swap the words Spell for Power, caster for Manifester and magic for psionic?

The other thing what about a psionic demi-lich?
Tedronai
08-22-07, 03:50 PM If using magic-psionics transparency, a Psion-Lich should be possible, and if that is, then a Demi-Lich is as well. (though what the level adjustment is on those things escapes me, I don't believe its listed.)
Tempest Stormwind
08-22-07, 04:03 PM If using magic-psionics transparency, a Psion-Lich should be possible, and if that is, then a Demi-Lich is as well. (though what the level adjustment is on those things escapes me, I don't believe its listed.)

Incorrect. Transparency does NOT extend across feats, nor does it extend across prerequisites. You need to have Craft Wonderous Item (not Craft Universal Item) and have a high caster level (not manifester level).

Don't read more into transparency than is actually the case.
CrimsonDeath
08-22-07, 04:56 PM Incorrect. Transparency does NOT extend across feats, nor does it extend across prerequisites. You need to have Craft Wonderous Item (not Craft Universal Item) and have a high caster level (not manifester level).

Don't read more into transparency than is actually the case.
Magic Item Compendium, p. 232, "Psionics and Crafting Magic Items" sidebar. Of course, since the sidebar specifically refers to items in that book, you could make a case that it does not extend to items outside the book, such as the Lich's phylactery in the Monster Manual. Also, since the sidebar specifically refers to feat and spell prerequisites but not caster level prerequisites, you could make the case that a manifester level of 11 does not fulfill the prerequisite of a caster level of 11. I'm not sure that either case really holds water, though.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hadan 08-16-07, 06:58 AM	Is it possible for a psion to become a lich if he only takes levels as a psion?
SlanderPanic 08-16-07, 10:09 AM	Nope.
Water_To_Fire 08-16-07, 11:14 AM	The psionic lich, aka Spectral Savant is found in Complete Psionic. I believe there's another version in Untapped Potential.
SlanderPanic 08-16-07, 02:06 PM	The savant's more of a psionic vampire than a psionic lich, though. They can't regain power points on their own, so they have to drain them from other minds. Unlike a lich, which is just fine with hiding away from the world for centuries, a spectral savant needs to be around other people and, the more powerful the savant becomes, the more powerful creatures (or the larger number of weak creatures) it needs to feed from. In this way, the savant is a lame-duck creature. Think about how many power points your characters blow through in a day of adventuring. No big deal. It's your daily allotment. Eight hours of rest and a minute of meditation and you get them all back. But, if that's all the power points you have without resorting to attacking other powerful psionic creatures and getting close enough for physical contact, you're going to be a lot more stingy with those powers. I can see why a lot of spectral savants might become cerebremancers, simply so they can have access to a source of power which doesn't lead them into danger. (Also, dweomer of transference would make a spectral savant's life a lot easier. If you run out of power points, you can retreat, cast the spell, then toss all your remaining spells for the day into your dweomer. The next day, you prepare spells again and you're good to go.) Why anyone would actually want to become a spectral savant is beyond me. Maybe there'll be a decent psionic lich in 4e.
Tempest Stormwind 08-16-07, 02:09 PM	Why anyone would actually want to become a spectral savant is beyond me. Because if you know Shadow Eft, you have unlimited power points.
Thegans 08-16-07, 02:27 PM	Is it possible for a psion to become a lich if he only takes levels as a psion? Astral Seed and Mind Switch can replicate the effects of a lich close enough. Just not the undead part.
Racinante 08-16-07, 03:20 PM	If Thoughts Could Kill (http://www.ptolus.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_TCKpreview) also has one that is available as a preview on the ptolus web site.
Halaku 08-16-07, 03:33 PM	Because if you know Shadow Eft, you have unlimited power points. Beat me to it, but Planar Champion works just as well.
CrimsonDeath 08-16-07, 03:47 PM	Actually, could a level 11 manifester with Craft Universal Item create a phylactery, according to the transparency rules in the Magic Item Compendium?
jbsaff 08-16-07, 04:10 PM	I thought Tempest had come up with an interesting "Psionic Lich" template a while back. It appears to have made it into Untapped Potential (Mindborn template) though a search of the boards may uncover the initial concept.
SlanderPanic 08-16-07, 04:40 PM	Isn't the Mindborn more like an advanced version of an elan than a lich? (It's been a little while since I've looked at it.) I've given thought about turning some of the various undead types from Dark Sun into 3.5 templates. I know it's been done, but I honestly don't like Athas.org's stuff. It'd be interesting to pull out a kaisharga next time my players head for the Crescent Kingdom.
Bacris 08-16-07, 04:42 PM	Tempest created the Mindborn initially as "you want your psionic lich? fine!" and made the mindborn - it's a psionic equivalent to a lich, without being a "psionic lich" It therefore doesn't suffer from Psionic X syndrome :)
jbsaff 08-16-07, 04:55 PM	Isn't the Mindborn more like an advanced version of an elan than a lich? (It's been a little while since I've looked at it.) I suppose that would depend on what you considered the hallmarks of lichdom. Mindborn share a similar "kill the body, then the soul container" type of mechanic. IIRC, the Mindborn was an excercise in exploring a psionic version of something with resorting to just slapping the word "Psionic" on the front. Should a "psionic lich" be undead? It could be, but we already have liches that use that path/mechanic/flavor. And while I attempt to perfect the wording on my post, Bacris ninja'd me with a simple and direct response... My forum-fu is so weak.
SlanderPanic 08-16-07, 04:55 PM	It is a cool template. It's just not scary. On a related note, that's something I always liked about Dark Sun undead. Not only were they cool looking, they were also unique. No undead is the same as any other undead, even if they're of the same sort. One kaisharga might be incorporeal but powerless in sunlight, while another could be covered in spiked chitin and able to use wail of the banshee as a spell-like ability. One could be a defiler. One could be a gladiator.
Bacris 08-16-07, 04:57 PM	And while I attempt to perfect the wording on my post, Bacris ninja'd me with a simple and direct response... My forum-fu is so weak. You can't fix what you don't acknowledge! Thanks, Dr Phil! :)
BobBarker 08-16-07, 05:02 PM	It'd be interesting to pull out a kaisharga next time my players head for the Crescent Kingdom. I get the feeling that if I knew what a kaisharga was, I would be a lot more worried right now...
jbsaff 08-16-07, 05:06 PM	**Note to self: With UTP in hand, must replace cliched "lich summoning outsider of DOOOOM" in campaign with a Mindborn-related plotline. Now I just have to figure out why a being without a body cares about what the players are doing...
SlanderPanic 08-16-07, 09:40 PM	I get the feeling that if I knew what a kaisharga was, I would be a lot more worried right now... You bet your ass you would be. MWAhahahahaaa.
CrimsonDeath 08-17-07, 04:31 PM	**Note to self: With UTP in hand, must replace cliched "lich summoning outsider of DOOOOM" in campaign with a Mindborn-related plotline. Now I just have to figure out why a being without a body cares about what the players are doing... Maybe he loves his incorporeal existence so much that he wants to share it with everyone!
Lycanthromancer 08-19-07, 08:39 PM	Maybe he loves his incorporeal existence so much that he wants to share it with everyone! :bl: I....ain't got no body. And nobody cares for me. :bl:
CrimsonDeath 08-20-07, 03:08 AM	:bl: I....ain't got no body. And nobody cares for me. :bl: Maybe he was originally a gnome? Because... :bl:Short people ain't got no-body...:bl: (Sorry, seven consecutive years of Chorus...)
ElecTech 08-20-07, 03:17 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b This is the closest thing that I could personally think of as a replacement for the psionic lich. It is an old 3.0 psion class from the minds eye archives The Grim Psion.
SlanderPanic 08-20-07, 10:27 AM	Thank goodness for Dreamblade. I love the :bl: :dbl: :mbl: :dmbl: symbols, even if the game isn't so great. (I also love the :m: symbol, but that's wholly unrelated.)
Knight0 08-20-07, 12:49 PM	I agree with crimsondeath Actually, could a level 11 manifester with Craft Universal Item create a phylactery, according to the transparency rules in the Magic Item Compendium? Can't you just swap the words Spell for Power, caster for Manifester and magic for psionic? The other thing what about a psionic demi-lich?
Tedronai 08-22-07, 03:50 PM	If using magic-psionics transparency, a Psion-Lich should be possible, and if that is, then a Demi-Lich is as well. (though what the level adjustment is on those things escapes me, I don't believe its listed.)
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 04:03 PM	If using magic-psionics transparency, a Psion-Lich should be possible, and if that is, then a Demi-Lich is as well. (though what the level adjustment is on those things escapes me, I don't believe its listed.) Incorrect. Transparency does NOT extend across feats, nor does it extend across prerequisites. You need to have Craft Wonderous Item (not Craft Universal Item) and have a high caster level (not manifester level). Don't read more into transparency than is actually the case.
CrimsonDeath 08-22-07, 04:56 PM	Incorrect. Transparency does NOT extend across feats, nor does it extend across prerequisites. You need to have Craft Wonderous Item (not Craft Universal Item) and have a high caster level (not manifester level). Don't read more into transparency than is actually the case. Magic Item Compendium, p. 232, "Psionics and Crafting Magic Items" sidebar. Of course, since the sidebar specifically refers to items in that book, you could make a case that it does not extend to items outside the book, such as the Lich's phylactery in the Monster Manual. Also, since the sidebar specifically refers to feat and spell prerequisites but not caster level prerequisites, you could make the case that a manifester level of 11 does not fulfill the prerequisite of a caster level of 11. I'm not sure that either case really holds water, though.