Limit to Expansion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Limit to Expansion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
m o n k
06-30-07, 07:29 PM Looking at the XPH it seems to me that the Expansion power limits the PC's size increase to two sizes larger than his or her normal size. Am I interpreting the description correctly?

Would it be broken to allow a PC to expand beyond two size increases? Where is the line for brokenness?--3 size increases? 6?

Thanks!
InkBlot
06-30-07, 11:29 PM Expansion does indeed limit the manifester to increasing his or her size by two categories. In other words, a medium psychic can only make himself huge.

I don't think it would be broken to uncap it -- to allow it go all the way to colossal. At +6pp per size category, it would cost 19pp for a medium character to become colossal. That sounds fine for a 10th level power (if 10th level powers existed, they would cost 19pp).
munin
06-30-07, 11:49 PM I agree that it would not be unbalanced. It's less powerful than metamorphosis or the wu jen's giant size (a 7th-level spell). Don't forget that with each size increase, the weight of your possessions increases by 700%, while your carrying capacity only increases about 160% (starting from Medium).
InkBlot
07-01-07, 12:28 AM Now I have to wonder about applying the same idea to compression. The bonuses to dexterity, hide, attack rolls, and armor class could turn an Expanded Knowledge (compression) into a must-have for any class that isn't dependent on strength -- e.g., most psionic classes.
Part-Human2
07-01-07, 01:22 AM I agree that it would not be unbalanced. It's less powerful than metamorphosis or the wu jen's giant size (a 7th-level spell). Don't forget that with each size increase, the weight of your possessions increases by 700%, while your carrying capacity only increases about 160% (starting from Medium).

Interesting numbers but where did you get them?

Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large x2, Huge x4, Gargantuan x8, Colossal x16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small x3/4, Tiny x1/2, Diminutive x1/4, Fine x1/8.

Also, while expansion increases your weight by x8, under equipment, weapons and armor sized for Large are only 2x the normal weight.
CrimsonDeath
07-01-07, 01:34 PM The biggest problem with Expansion/Compression is that the ability modifications from the powers are linear, but size modifiers to attack rolls and AC aren't. If you were to uncap them, you'd need to specify an ability score progression-- otherwise, your Colossal psychic warrior would be largely ineffective at anything but grapples, bull rushes, and Intimidation. Of course, that opens up some new problems, because handing the player a +16 size bonus to an ability score opens up some troublesome cans of worms.
Symar
07-01-07, 01:48 PM Expansion does indeed limit the manifester to increasing his or her size by two categories. In other words, a medium psychic can only make himself huge.

You could be a small medium at large!
Sorry, couldn't resist... :D
m o n k
07-01-07, 02:37 PM Expansion does indeed limit the manifester to increasing his or her size by two categories. In other words, a medium psychic can only make himself huge.

I don't think it would be broken to uncap it -- to allow it go all the way to colossal. At +6pp per size category, it would cost 19pp for a medium character to become colossal. That sounds fine for a 10th level power (if 10th level powers existed, they would cost 19pp).
Okay, so it would cost 19pp to become colossal. Now am I right to assume that a psychic warrior would have to be 19th level to use expansion to the extent that he becomes colossal size? I mean, to use 19pp on a single power, he would need to be 19th level, right?
Lycanthromancer
07-01-07, 02:41 PM There's always Overchannel and Talented. Given the psychic warrior's large number of feats, that would certainly be within his purview. Of course, given the low number of power points a psychic warrior gets, this gets costly, and fast. The best way to go with those two feats is to use them on powers with long durations. This might actually SAVE power points in the long run, depending on how many encounters you're expecting to face.
InkBlot
07-01-07, 02:50 PM You could be a small medium at large!
Sorry, couldn't resist... :D
"What do you call a psychic midget who just broke out of jail?" That's one of my father's favorite jokes.

Most of the relevant data for this discussion can be found in the tables on pages 314, 296, and 291 of the Monster Manual. The table on page 291 is probably the best one to use as a kind of rough draft for an uncapped expansion/compression.

SIZE INCREASES

A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry).

A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below.

Table: Changes to Statistics by Size
Old Size* New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack
Fine Diminutive Same –2 Same Same –4
Diminutive Tiny +2 –2 Same Same –2
Tiny Small +4 –2 Same Same –1
Small Medium +4 –2 +2 Same –1
Medium Large +8 –2 +4 +2 –1
Large Huge +8 –2 +4 +3 –1
Huge Gargantuan +8 Same +4 +4 –2
Gargantuan Colossal +8 Same +4 +5 –4
* Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size.

Table: Increased Damage By Size
Old Damage (Each)* New Damage
1d2 1d3
1d3 1d4
1d4 1d6
1d6 1d8
1d8 2d6
1d10 2d8
2d6 3d6
2d8 3d8
* Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size category.
munin
07-01-07, 06:20 PM Interesting numbers but where did you get them?...while expansion increases your weight by x8, under equipment, weapons and armor sized for Large are only 2x the normal weight.

expansion doesn't say it causes your equipment to become the weight of a similar object of the next largest size category...

This power causes instant growth, doubling your height, length, and width and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one ... All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power.

The way the power is worded, the size category increase is a consequence of the dimension and weight changes, not the other way around. So your equipment's weight is multiplied by 8 (an increase of 700%). This has been argued before and some prefer your interpretation as a common sense alternative (and go ahead if you want), but that's not what the power says.

If a Medium Str 10 psychic warrior manifested expansion (max. 100 lb.), ey would become a Large Str 12 psychic warrior (max. 130 lb. x 2 = 260 lb.), an increase of 160%. Other starting Strengths are similar (150% to 169%). Exceptions when starting from less than Str 5 or going from, through, or to Small size with its 3/4 factor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
m o n k 06-30-07, 07:29 PM	Looking at the XPH it seems to me that the Expansion power limits the PC's size increase to two sizes larger than his or her normal size. Am I interpreting the description correctly? Would it be broken to allow a PC to expand beyond two size increases? Where is the line for brokenness?--3 size increases? 6? Thanks!
InkBlot 06-30-07, 11:29 PM	Expansion does indeed limit the manifester to increasing his or her size by two categories. In other words, a medium psychic can only make himself huge. I don't think it would be broken to uncap it -- to allow it go all the way to colossal. At +6pp per size category, it would cost 19pp for a medium character to become colossal. That sounds fine for a 10th level power (if 10th level powers existed, they would cost 19pp).
munin 06-30-07, 11:49 PM	I agree that it would not be unbalanced. It's less powerful than metamorphosis or the wu jen's giant size (a 7th-level spell). Don't forget that with each size increase, the weight of your possessions increases by 700%, while your carrying capacity only increases about 160% (starting from Medium).
InkBlot 07-01-07, 12:28 AM	Now I have to wonder about applying the same idea to compression. The bonuses to dexterity, hide, attack rolls, and armor class could turn an Expanded Knowledge (compression) into a must-have for any class that isn't dependent on strength -- e.g., most psionic classes.
Part-Human2 07-01-07, 01:22 AM	I agree that it would not be unbalanced. It's less powerful than metamorphosis or the wu jen's giant size (a 7th-level spell). Don't forget that with each size increase, the weight of your possessions increases by 700%, while your carrying capacity only increases about 160% (starting from Medium). Interesting numbers but where did you get them? Bigger and Smaller Creatures: The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large x2, Huge x4, Gargantuan x8, Colossal x16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small x3/4, Tiny x1/2, Diminutive x1/4, Fine x1/8. Also, while expansion increases your weight by x8, under equipment, weapons and armor sized for Large are only 2x the normal weight.
CrimsonDeath 07-01-07, 01:34 PM	The biggest problem with Expansion/Compression is that the ability modifications from the powers are linear, but size modifiers to attack rolls and AC aren't. If you were to uncap them, you'd need to specify an ability score progression-- otherwise, your Colossal psychic warrior would be largely ineffective at anything but grapples, bull rushes, and Intimidation. Of course, that opens up some new problems, because handing the player a +16 size bonus to an ability score opens up some troublesome cans of worms.
Symar 07-01-07, 01:48 PM	Expansion does indeed limit the manifester to increasing his or her size by two categories. In other words, a medium psychic can only make himself huge. You could be a small medium at large! Sorry, couldn't resist... :D
m o n k 07-01-07, 02:37 PM	Expansion does indeed limit the manifester to increasing his or her size by two categories. In other words, a medium psychic can only make himself huge. I don't think it would be broken to uncap it -- to allow it go all the way to colossal. At +6pp per size category, it would cost 19pp for a medium character to become colossal. That sounds fine for a 10th level power (if 10th level powers existed, they would cost 19pp). Okay, so it would cost 19pp to become colossal. Now am I right to assume that a psychic warrior would have to be 19th level to use expansion to the extent that he becomes colossal size? I mean, to use 19pp on a single power, he would need to be 19th level, right?
Lycanthromancer 07-01-07, 02:41 PM	There's always Overchannel and Talented. Given the psychic warrior's large number of feats, that would certainly be within his purview. Of course, given the low number of power points a psychic warrior gets, this gets costly, and fast. The best way to go with those two feats is to use them on powers with long durations. This might actually SAVE power points in the long run, depending on how many encounters you're expecting to face.
InkBlot 07-01-07, 02:50 PM	You could be a small medium at large! Sorry, couldn't resist... :D "What do you call a psychic midget who just broke out of jail?" That's one of my father's favorite jokes. Most of the relevant data for this discussion can be found in the tables on pages 314, 296, and 291 of the Monster Manual. The table on page 291 is probably the best one to use as a kind of rough draft for an uncapped expansion/compression. SIZE INCREASES A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry). A size increase affects any special ability the creature has that is affected by size. Increased size also affects a creature’s ability scores, AC, attack bonuses, and damage values as indicated on the tables below. Table: Changes to Statistics by Size Old Size* New Size Str Dex Con Natural Armor AC/Attack Fine Diminutive Same –2 Same Same –4 Diminutive Tiny +2 –2 Same Same –2 Tiny Small +4 –2 Same Same –1 Small Medium +4 –2 +2 Same –1 Medium Large +8 –2 +4 +2 –1 Large Huge +8 –2 +4 +3 –1 Huge Gargantuan +8 Same +4 +4 –2 Gargantuan Colossal +8 Same +4 +5 –4 * Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size. Table: Increased Damage By Size Old Damage (Each)* New Damage 1d2 1d3 1d3 1d4 1d4 1d6 1d6 1d8 1d8 2d6 1d10 2d8 2d6 3d6 2d8 3d8 * Repeat the adjustment if the creature moves up more than one size category.
munin 07-01-07, 06:20 PM	Interesting numbers but where did you get them?...while expansion increases your weight by x8, under equipment, weapons and armor sized for Large are only 2x the normal weight. expansion doesn't say it causes your equipment to become the weight of a similar object of the next largest size category... This power causes instant growth, doubling your height, length, and width and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one ... All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. The way the power is worded, the size category increase is a consequence of the dimension and weight changes, not the other way around. So your equipment's weight is multiplied by 8 (an increase of 700%). This has been argued before and some prefer your interpretation as a common sense alternative (and go ahead if you want), but that's not what the power says. If a Medium Str 10 psychic warrior manifested expansion (max. 100 lb.), ey would become a Large Str 12 psychic warrior (max. 130 lb. x 2 = 260 lb.), an increase of 160%. Other starting Strengths are similar (150% to 169%). Exceptions when starting from less than Str 5 or going from, through, or to Small size with its 3/4 factor.