Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LuciferNietzsche 06-07-07, 05:04 AM	I started this in the General threads, and it dawned on me how stupid that was. And since there is enough stupidity to go around here as it is, I corrected the problem. It's already been pointed out as completely intentional, so the only question is this... Why on earth is there an augment available at 1st level, but not usable til 2nd, while an augment that could be usable at 1st sits clear up at 3rd level? I'm speaking of course about Additional Sneak Attack and Solid Strike. Admittedly, guaranteed damage is better than extra dice, but multiple dice have much the same effect, having a minimum of 1 each. I don't think it'd break anything, or drastically alter game balance to switch the two. Neither would be more or less useful, Though Solid Strike would see a little more use at 1st and 2nd levels. At 3rd, when you'd get Additional Sneak Attack, most people are going to opt for that, unless they have a specific need for Solid Strike. Frankly, I don't see a problem with switching them, but if anyone does, let me know. And please come up with a real problem, not the seemingly universal "game balance" nonsense. Balance may be the issue, but you'd better be able to express in what way it will affect game balance...you don't get to just say it'll break the game, you've gotta back it up with why. That sort of response means you're a whiny brat and just don't like the idea. It's not reasonable and it's not acceptable for the purpose of this thread.
Gauze Fireforge 06-08-07, 01:44 AM	A lurk can use additional sneak attack at 1st level eg. 1st level lurk goes to hit and declares he is using using sneak attack augment. He deals his damage +1d6 sneak attack. Now he cant pump it with power points at 1st level because of his manifester level cap but say a 2nd level lurk did the same thing and pumped it with 2 power points which get an additional +1d6 Sneak attack. So he spends an augment (sneak attack) and pump it with 2 pp for another 1d6 to make it +2d6 The Augments always provide something when you qualify for them. On a side note, I am playing a 12th level duerger lurk and utilise sneak attack 90% of the time. I have only once or twice used solid strike when I know the target is immune to sneak attack.
AdventChild 06-08-07, 01:48 AM	A lurk can use additional sneak attack at 1st level eg. 1st level lurk goes to hit and declares he is using using sneak attack augment. He deals his damage +1d6 sneak attack. Now he cant pump it with power points at 1st level because of his manifester level cap but say a 2nd level lurk did the same thing and pumped it with 2 power points which get an additional +1d6 Sneak attack. So he spends an augment (sneak attack) and pump it with 2 pp for another 1d6 to make it +2d6 The Augments always provide something when you qualify for them. On a side note, I am playing a 12th level duerger lurk and utilise sneak attack 90% of the time. I have only once or twice used solid strike when I know the target is immune to sneak attack. Q: Dear Sage, Does the additional sneak attack option available from the 1st-level lurk augment class feature (Complete Psionic, 14) only apply if you already have the sneak attack class feature? --Randall A: Yes. That means that this option is useless to a 1st-level lurk (but becomes quite useful at 2nd level, when the lurk gains psionic sneak attack.
NoldorForce 06-08-07, 10:05 AM	The problem is that, as above, it makes no sense to provide the feature at the first class level if you can't use it at that point. It's like giving out Power Attack to the monk at its first class level, except for the fact that the monk is a better dip.
Kaiberon 06-09-07, 07:08 PM	Given the limited number of Augments per day and the overwhelming number of foes that are immune to sneeak attack or have fortification to some degree allowing the augmented Sneak attack at first is no where near broken (Zombies are immune! as are Homunculi. Both common low level threats) The Sage is also clearly wrong. A First level Lurk is like cut rate rogue with nifty trick to make up for his lack of trap finding and linguistics. As they progress they become an awesome 20 level class while rogues have a score or more awesome PrCs to pad out. A rogue that combos in a level of lurk gets a nifty trick and an extra die of sneak attack a few times a day. The afore mentioned monk gets a feat that continues to increase in usefulness as BAB increases. Whatever, my point is the Sage was wrong. The End.
Travis_UI 06-10-07, 04:33 AM	The sage gave a crappy, non-sensical answer regarding psionics? Surely you jest...
Gauze Fireforge 06-10-07, 09:48 PM	Q: Dear Sage, Does the additional sneak attack option available from the 1st-level lurk augment class feature (Complete Psionic, 14) only apply if you already have the sneak attack class feature? --Randall A: Yes. That means that this option is useless to a 1st-level lurk (but becomes quite useful at 2nd level, when the lurk gains psionic sneak attack. :eek: :heehee :rofl: I have heard some crazy stuff from the Sage but this is priceless!
AdventChild 06-11-07, 12:01 AM	Given the limited number of Augments per day and the overwhelming number of foes that are immune to sneeak attack or have fortification to some degree allowing the augmented Sneak attack at first is no where near broken (Zombies are immune! as are Homunculi. Both common low level threats) The Sage is also clearly wrong. A First level Lurk is like cut rate rogue with nifty trick to make up for his lack of trap finding and linguistics. As they progress they become an awesome 20 level class while rogues have a score or more awesome PrCs to pad out. A rogue that combos in a level of lurk gets a nifty trick and an extra die of sneak attack a few times a day. The afore mentioned monk gets a feat that continues to increase in usefulness as BAB increases. Whatever, my point is the Sage was wrong. The End. Read the power and you will see that the sage is right, it is pointless for a 1st level lurk but if you multiclass perhaps rogue or psirogue
Kaiberon 06-11-07, 12:14 AM	Yes I did read the power, 8-15 times prior and about 10 since, the only thing to "Imply" it requires an existing sneak attack ability is the name "Additional Sneak Attack" However, If the Lurk is level 1 and employs the ability while a foe is denied his Dex bonus to AC "Any Sneak Attack" would be considered "Additional Sneak Attack".
runestar 06-11-07, 12:15 AM	It does not sound wrong. For example, my cleric could take power attack at 1st lv, but not be able to benefit from it until lv2+. But considering that it is a prereq for cleave, I cannot delay its acquisition to a later lv anyways. I see it more as a case of a poorly designed class. The sage was merely giving a literal interpretation of the ability. It is not his place to say if it is overpowering or too weak.
The Livewire 06-11-07, 07:34 AM	Except you can have a base benefit of +0 Per the Barkskin spell: A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0. so a character with no sneak attack has a sneak attack damage of 0d6, augment adds +1d6. sage should stay away from psionic questions. Some things are simple in life. I nominate Tempest or Antidjin for Sage, Psionic!
runestar 06-11-07, 07:45 AM	so a character with no sneak attack has a sneak attack damage of 0d6 Can you please quote where this is explicitly stated for sneak attack? I am still not convinced that the sage's ruling is incorrect. More like it is simply a case of sour grapes amongst a few disgruntled players.
Batshido 06-11-07, 09:28 AM	I am still not convinced that the sage's ruling is incorrect. More like it is simply a case of sour grapes amongst a few disgruntled players. Would you rather believe that this is a mistaken ruling by one member of Wizards staff, or that one of the few bright spots in the only official psionic support we've gotten so far was that poorly conceived?
Fafnir 06-11-07, 09:43 AM	I nominate Tempest or Antidjin for Sage, Psionic! You just made Tempest into a Psionic X. Just wait until he sees it. :D
runestar 06-11-07, 10:04 AM	Would you rather believe that this is a mistaken ruling by one member of Wizards staff, or that one of the few bright spots in the only official psionic support we've gotten so far was that poorly conceived? I only believe the truth, or the RAW in this case. If I have reason to believe that the Sage's ruling is correct, then I will side with him. Likewise, I will not hesitate to point out any mistakes I may discover with his takes, even if he is the "Sage". Whoever the ruling was made by is really irrelevant. Only its content matters. Of course, this means that it is entirely possible that I might be flat out incorrect on this issue, in which case, prove it to me, and I will readily retract my earlier statements, as well as offer any apologies for any problems caused if need be. But I believe that an argument should not only be right, but it should also be right for the correct reasons. As of the moment, I have yet to see any mechanical proof as to why it would not work that way, merely proclamations of why it should not due to a perceived inconsistency. You may be correct in that your ruling is the way it should work. But my point is with regards to how it does work with respects to a strict interpretation. And the Sage does not seem incorrect for this one, however bitter a pill it may be to swallow. Regardless, it still does not necessarily mean that the sage was wrong, merely that the material was poorly designed to begin with. It seems like he is being criticized more for his honesty, rather than his perceived inadequacy where the rules are concerned.
Batshido 06-11-07, 11:31 AM	It seems like he is being criticized more for his honesty, rather than his perceived inadequacy where the rules are concerned. I was honestly just asking the question. It really doesn't matter to me one way or another, personally. :) It just seems silly to give a class a special ability at 1st level, when they can't use it until 2nd. It'd be like giving Monk's Stunning Fist, and then telling him he can't hit anything with Unarmed Strikes until he'd made it to level 2.
Genetic 06-11-07, 12:58 PM	Even if the ruling is correct, I'd still house-rule that the Lurk can use it at first level. It makes far more sense and isn't that overpowering.
deviknyte 06-11-07, 01:02 PM	I agree. Plus lurk augments not that powerful in the first place. It has a point and different augment max and it only last for one attack. I house rule it for until the begin of your next turn or until dispelled or you put up another lurk augment.