Magic = Psionics, mageslayer=psislayer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Magic = Psionics, mageslayer=psislayer? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vidahr
09-02-07, 11:24 AM XPHB rules that magic and psionics are the same, Nul Psionics Field=Anti Magic Field, Dispel magic works on powers, etc...
Does this mean that the feat mageslayer works the same with manifesters?
Thank you kindly in advance.
Fafnir
09-02-07, 11:26 AM XPHB rules that magic and psionics are the same, Nul Psionics Field=Anti Magic Field, Dispel magic works on powers, etc...
Does this mean that the feat mageslayer works the same with manifesters?
Thank you kindly in advance.

No, transparency doesn't extend to feats and/or skills. This also means you cannot use Metapsionic feats as their equivalent or vice-versa.

EDIT: Check the FAQ on the top of the forum, by the way. There. Now Tempest doesn't have to say it. :P
GawainBS
09-02-07, 11:27 AM It does not actually "hard rules" that, but Psionics ~ Magic Transparency is what most people assume, yes. Personally, I'm at a loss too.
Vidahr
09-02-07, 11:28 AM Thanks for the info, is there maybe a clear writing on that in any official source?
Fafnir
09-02-07, 11:33 AM Combining Psionic And Magical Effects

The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

There you go. No mention of feats or skills there, only spells and abilities.
Vidahr
09-02-07, 11:34 AM Seems clear enough, thanks for the quick help.
Kusari_Gamer
09-02-07, 12:08 PM This nonsense is why I am not fond of psionics.

If I'm running a largely non-psionic game and one of my players wants a psionic character then he will have to live with the idea that it is completely transparent.
Knight0
09-02-07, 12:12 PM No reason why you couldn't extend the rules to encompass skills and feats.
Nephlite
09-02-07, 12:43 PM This nonsense is why I am not fond of psionics.

If I'm running a largely non-psionic game and one of my players wants a psionic character then he will have to live with the idea that it is completely transparent.

This is a benefit: Metapsionic wands than must exist (since metmaqgic wands would have to transparent).
The Livewire
09-02-07, 01:25 PM This nonsense is why I am not fond of psionics.

If I'm running a largely non-psionic game and one of my players wants a psionic character then he will have to live with the idea that it is completely transparent.

Actually, the feat doesn't work on SLAs either, as far as I can read. *shrug*

We've finally found one exception to "Psionics and magic are transparent, unless it benefits the psion."
Ecalsneerg
09-03-07, 02:45 AM Actually the magic-psionics transparency rule is optional. You don't have to use it.

Although, it does stop the OMG OVERPOWERED!!!! screaming, I must admit.
Fafnir
09-03-07, 04:41 AM Actually the magic-psionics transparency rule is optional. You don't have to use it.

Although, it does stop the OMG OVERPOWERED!!!! screaming, I must admit.

Au contraire, it's standard. "Psionics are different" is the option (and a wildly unbalanced one at that).
GawainBS
09-03-07, 04:50 AM We're playing with the transparency rules, actually. Like someone pointed out, the official text doesn't say anything about feats and skills.
I don't get it why some people call this nonsense, the only nonsense here is that Wizards adamantly refuses to recognize Psionics as a full part of the game and incorporate them in more books, or at least explain the interactions.
Asadeseth
09-03-07, 01:34 PM The genral guide line is if an effect or magic iteam effects magic in some X way then it effects psionics in some X way unless noted otherwise. So you CAN take that too meen that metamagic rods effect psionic powers, OR sence metamagic and metapsionics don't exactly work the same way (largely do to game mechanics) they dont. Both are in their own way right, I personaly go for the first but some people on this bord go the otherway.
CrimsonDeath
09-03-07, 03:52 PM I played a psion in a game in which an NPC had the Mage-Slayer feat, and the DM ruled that it worked as well against me as it did against the sorceror and the cleric. Personally, I think that's the way it should've been played, despite the fact that it completely screwed me over.
Fafnir
09-03-07, 05:16 PM I played a psion in a game in which an NPC had the Mage-Slayer feat, and the DM ruled that it worked as well against me as it did against the sorceror and the cleric. Personally, I think that's the way it should've been played, despite the fact that it completely screwed me over.

Possibly, but then you have to rework the feat to say it gives a penalty to ML too. I find it a perfectly logical ruling and one I would easily adopt in my game, though.
CrimsonDeath
09-04-07, 12:33 AM Possibly, but then you have to rework the feat to say it gives a penalty to ML too. I find it a perfectly logical ruling and one I would easily adopt in my game, though.
Well, since the enemy was neither a spellcaster nor a manifester, it didn't really matter what penalties he was taking on his caster and manifester levels.
GawainBS
09-04-07, 05:02 AM But it starts to matter when psionics characters take the feat. :)
CrimsonDeath
09-04-07, 05:04 AM You know, this raises another good question. Can the subject of Tenser's Transformation still manifest psionic powers? (This is especially important for the Erudite.)
GawainBS
09-04-07, 05:05 AM I'm tempted to say "no".
Callix
09-04-07, 08:07 AM The spell affects your ability to cast spells. By Psionics-Magic Transparency, this means it affects your ability to manifest powers. QED. Note that this only applies because Tenser's Transformation is a spell (or a power for an erudite with a cool substitution ability). You cannot apply this to anything that is not a psionic or magical effect, such as feats or skills.

[/proof]
GawainBS
09-04-07, 08:18 AM Cillix, cool, you used that QED. I never got what it means though. Care to explain?:)
Callix
09-04-07, 08:24 AM Latin. I believe it stands for Quo Est Demonstrandum (Don't quote me on that), but it means "It has been shown", and is commonly used to conclude mathematical and logical proofs. Oh, and my name's Callix. With an A. ;)
GawainBS
09-04-07, 08:28 AM Ah, thanks.
CrimsonDeath
09-04-07, 11:50 AM The spell affects your ability to cast spells. By Psionics-Magic Transparency, this means it affects your ability to manifest powers. QED. Note that this only applies because Tenser's Transformation is a spell (or a power for an erudite with a cool substitution ability). You cannot apply this to anything that is not a psionic or magical effect, such as feats or skills.

[/proof]
Well, I'm glad we got that out of the way.
The Livewire
09-05-07, 08:17 PM Well, I'm glad we got that out of the way.

Depends on the Schism headache...

Manifest Schism
Cast/Manifest Transformation.

Can the Schismed brain still Manifest?

Or how about Manifest Schism
backup brain casts Mental Pinnacle (via memorized silent still, for example) Can the prime brain still play Cerebromancer while the backup brain uses the points granted by the spell?
The Livewire
09-05-07, 08:18 PM another fun thing with the mageslayer tree.

Prime manifests Schism,
If secondary doesn't have access to prime's feats, does that mean its manifesting level is -not- reduced by the feat?
InkBlot
09-05-07, 11:21 PM The schism's manifester level is based on your manifester level. So if your manifester level is lower, then your schism is starting from a lower number.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vidahr 09-02-07, 11:24 AM	XPHB rules that magic and psionics are the same, Nul Psionics Field=Anti Magic Field, Dispel magic works on powers, etc... Does this mean that the feat mageslayer works the same with manifesters? Thank you kindly in advance.
Fafnir 09-02-07, 11:26 AM	XPHB rules that magic and psionics are the same, Nul Psionics Field=Anti Magic Field, Dispel magic works on powers, etc... Does this mean that the feat mageslayer works the same with manifesters? Thank you kindly in advance. No, transparency doesn't extend to feats and/or skills. This also means you cannot use Metapsionic feats as their equivalent or vice-versa. EDIT: Check the FAQ on the top of the forum, by the way. There. Now Tempest doesn't have to say it. :P
GawainBS 09-02-07, 11:27 AM	It does not actually "hard rules" that, but Psionics ~ Magic Transparency is what most people assume, yes. Personally, I'm at a loss too.
Vidahr 09-02-07, 11:28 AM	Thanks for the info, is there maybe a clear writing on that in any official source?
Fafnir 09-02-07, 11:33 AM	Combining Psionic And Magical Effects The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency. Psionics-Magic Transparency Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications. Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.) All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura). Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas. There you go. No mention of feats or skills there, only spells and abilities.
Vidahr 09-02-07, 11:34 AM	Seems clear enough, thanks for the quick help.
Kusari_Gamer 09-02-07, 12:08 PM	This nonsense is why I am not fond of psionics. If I'm running a largely non-psionic game and one of my players wants a psionic character then he will have to live with the idea that it is completely transparent.
Knight0 09-02-07, 12:12 PM	No reason why you couldn't extend the rules to encompass skills and feats.
Nephlite 09-02-07, 12:43 PM	This nonsense is why I am not fond of psionics. If I'm running a largely non-psionic game and one of my players wants a psionic character then he will have to live with the idea that it is completely transparent. This is a benefit: Metapsionic wands than must exist (since metmaqgic wands would have to transparent).
The Livewire 09-02-07, 01:25 PM	This nonsense is why I am not fond of psionics. If I'm running a largely non-psionic game and one of my players wants a psionic character then he will have to live with the idea that it is completely transparent. Actually, the feat doesn't work on SLAs either, as far as I can read. shrug We've finally found one exception to "Psionics and magic are transparent, unless it benefits the psion."
Ecalsneerg 09-03-07, 02:45 AM	Actually the magic-psionics transparency rule is optional. You don't have to use it. Although, it does stop the OMG OVERPOWERED!!!! screaming, I must admit.
Fafnir 09-03-07, 04:41 AM	Actually the magic-psionics transparency rule is optional. You don't have to use it. Although, it does stop the OMG OVERPOWERED!!!! screaming, I must admit. Au contraire, it's standard. "Psionics are different" is the option (and a wildly unbalanced one at that).
GawainBS 09-03-07, 04:50 AM	We're playing with the transparency rules, actually. Like someone pointed out, the official text doesn't say anything about feats and skills. I don't get it why some people call this nonsense, the only nonsense here is that Wizards adamantly refuses to recognize Psionics as a full part of the game and incorporate them in more books, or at least explain the interactions.
Asadeseth 09-03-07, 01:34 PM	The genral guide line is if an effect or magic iteam effects magic in some X way then it effects psionics in some X way unless noted otherwise. So you CAN take that too meen that metamagic rods effect psionic powers, OR sence metamagic and metapsionics don't exactly work the same way (largely do to game mechanics) they dont. Both are in their own way right, I personaly go for the first but some people on this bord go the otherway.
CrimsonDeath 09-03-07, 03:52 PM	I played a psion in a game in which an NPC had the Mage-Slayer feat, and the DM ruled that it worked as well against me as it did against the sorceror and the cleric. Personally, I think that's the way it should've been played, despite the fact that it completely screwed me over.
Fafnir 09-03-07, 05:16 PM	I played a psion in a game in which an NPC had the Mage-Slayer feat, and the DM ruled that it worked as well against me as it did against the sorceror and the cleric. Personally, I think that's the way it should've been played, despite the fact that it completely screwed me over. Possibly, but then you have to rework the feat to say it gives a penalty to ML too. I find it a perfectly logical ruling and one I would easily adopt in my game, though.
CrimsonDeath 09-04-07, 12:33 AM	Possibly, but then you have to rework the feat to say it gives a penalty to ML too. I find it a perfectly logical ruling and one I would easily adopt in my game, though. Well, since the enemy was neither a spellcaster nor a manifester, it didn't really matter what penalties he was taking on his caster and manifester levels.
GawainBS 09-04-07, 05:02 AM	But it starts to matter when psionics characters take the feat. :)
CrimsonDeath 09-04-07, 05:04 AM	You know, this raises another good question. Can the subject of Tenser's Transformation still manifest psionic powers? (This is especially important for the Erudite.)
GawainBS 09-04-07, 05:05 AM	I'm tempted to say "no".
Callix 09-04-07, 08:07 AM	The spell affects your ability to cast spells. By Psionics-Magic Transparency, this means it affects your ability to manifest powers. QED. Note that this only applies because Tenser's Transformation is a spell (or a power for an erudite with a cool substitution ability). You cannot apply this to anything that is not a psionic or magical effect, such as feats or skills. [/proof]
GawainBS 09-04-07, 08:18 AM	Cillix, cool, you used that QED. I never got what it means though. Care to explain?:)
Callix 09-04-07, 08:24 AM	Latin. I believe it stands for Quo Est Demonstrandum (Don't quote me on that), but it means "It has been shown", and is commonly used to conclude mathematical and logical proofs. Oh, and my name's Callix. With an A. ;)
GawainBS 09-04-07, 08:28 AM	Ah, thanks.
CrimsonDeath 09-04-07, 11:50 AM	The spell affects your ability to cast spells. By Psionics-Magic Transparency, this means it affects your ability to manifest powers. QED. Note that this only applies because Tenser's Transformation is a spell (or a power for an erudite with a cool substitution ability). You cannot apply this to anything that is not a psionic or magical effect, such as feats or skills. [/proof] Well, I'm glad we got that out of the way.
The Livewire 09-05-07, 08:17 PM	Well, I'm glad we got that out of the way. Depends on the Schism headache... Manifest Schism Cast/Manifest Transformation. Can the Schismed brain still Manifest? Or how about Manifest Schism backup brain casts Mental Pinnacle (via memorized silent still, for example) Can the prime brain still play Cerebromancer while the backup brain uses the points granted by the spell?
The Livewire 09-05-07, 08:18 PM	another fun thing with the mageslayer tree. Prime manifests Schism, If secondary doesn't have access to prime's feats, does that mean its manifesting level is -not- reduced by the feat?
InkBlot 09-05-07, 11:21 PM	The schism's manifester level is based on your manifester level. So if your manifester level is lower, then your schism is starting from a lower number.