Post/Author/DateTime	Post
T_Baggins 11-21-07, 07:23 PM	The general consensus among Char-Ops munchkins is that Wizard, CoDzilla, and Archivist are the best (strongest) classes. Psions never get mentioned, although you do see the occasional Psi-Warrior build. Psionics have widely been panned as being broken and unbalanced. But in comparison, they look kind of weak when held up against the classes listed above. Now I like psions, and play them, so this is not a "psions teh suk" post. I am actually trying to defend them against unwarranted criticism.
PhaedrusXY 11-21-07, 07:37 PM	The fact that you used the term munchkin makes me want to either dismiss you outright, or flame you into oblivion. I'll try to restrain myself, however... You can do incredibly powerful and even broken things with both. Due to the huge number of splat books with spells and PrCs for the magic-users, vs. very small number of books with psionic stuff in them (3-4, I think), there are just more broken things for the magic-users, though. Also, wizards, archivists, clerics, and druids can access many more powers than a psion can. So they can always pick exactly the right tool for the job, if given time and foresight. The psion is stuck with his small number of powers known, unless he regularly uses Psionic Reformation or something.
T_Baggins 11-21-07, 07:55 PM	The fact that you used the term munchkin makes me want to either dismiss you outright, or flame you into oblivion. I'll try to restrain myself, however... Aw lighten up. I use it as term of endearment. Char-Ops is my favorite board. Thats how I now they don't talk about psions.
InkBlot 11-21-07, 08:08 PM	It's a fact. Psions are not as powerful as Wizards. That's a GOOD thing. I like my classes balanced and mechanically elegant. If CharOps calls psions weak, then I'll take it as a compliment.
calronmoonflower 11-21-07, 08:19 PM	Psions can make a few uber powerful attacks with less work that spellcasters, but if you really put the work into it you'll see that magic has a much higher but harder to realize potential.
Jaid 11-21-07, 08:54 PM	what about the artificer? i thought the charop boards regularly break that class too? how come it doesn't get to share in the broken category? =P
larry_the_titan 11-21-07, 09:06 PM	Aw lighten up. I use it as term of endearment. Char-Ops is my favorite board. Thats how I now they don't talk about psions. You say it is your favorite board let you used the insult of munchkin instead of the term Optimizer which would of been proper. I suggest you learn the meanings of the words on the boards before you use them next time. Anyway I will get back to the original topic. Yes Wizards and Full spell casters are a great deal more powerful then a Psion or any other psionic class. The one reason that they are more powerful is because Spells increase in power as your caster level goes up. But Powers stay the same even when your manifester Level Increases unless you put more power points into them. Another way Spell casters are more powerful is most of them (Wizards, Clerics Druids, Artificers, and Archivists AKA the Big 5) get huge spell selections, while psionics users get a limited number of spells. The best part of Psionics is the some powers get more difficult to save against at high level and most can produce multiple effect compared to spells but the fact that Powers even with all of there utility can never match the number of variations you can get from a nearly unlimited spell selection. If you had spent any time on the opts board you would of already known this.
Lycanthromancer 11-21-07, 09:14 PM	You say it is your favorite board let you used the insult of munchkin instead of the term Optimizer which would have been proper. I suggest you learn the meanings of the words on the boards before you use them next time. Anyway I will get back to the original topic. Yes Wizards and Full spell casters are a great deal more powerful then a Psion or any other psionic class. The one reason that they are more powerful is because Spells increase in power as your caster level goes up. But Powers stay the same even when your manifester Level Increases unless you put more power points into them. Another way Spell casters are more powerful is most of them (Wizards, Clerics Druids, Artificers, and Archivists AKA the Big 5) get huge spell selections, while psionics users get a limited number of spells. The best part of Psionics is the some powers get more difficult to save against at high level and most can produce multiple effect compared to spells but the fact that Powers even with all of there utility can never match the number of variations you can get from a nearly unlimited spell selection. If you had spent any time on the opts board you would have already known this.Fixed. Grammar aside, I agree wholeheartedly. Plus, a major reason why magic is teh ubar is because the authors didn't stop to think how different spells would react with each other. That's why telekinesis + shrink item can deal millions of d6's of damage, and why prismatic sphere + wall of stone can defend you from virtually everything (including far, FAR into epic), and why prismatic sphere + reverse gravity can kill virtually anything. The real power from magic comes not from the individual spells, but piggybacking them together with massively powerful spell synergy.
PhaedrusXY 11-21-07, 09:26 PM	It's a fact. Psions are not as powerful as Wizards. That's a GOOD thing. I like my classes balanced and mechanically elegant. If CharOps calls psions weak, then I'll take it as a compliment.They don't call them weak, and there have been lots of good psionic builds posted on there. There just isn't as much variety, due to lack of sources. I mean, how many times can you post ranger 2/psion8/slayer10? :D Also, not everyone plays with psionics, or is familiar with it. Several of the regulars on this board are also CO regulars, though.
T_Baggins 11-21-07, 09:42 PM	Sorry. I didn't realize munchkinism was such a touchy subject. What those guys on char ops do is art. I am a pretty good "optimizer" (min-maxer) (number cruncher), but those guys rule. They left "optimizing" in the dust a long time ago. "Optimizing" is picking your weapon purely on mechanical reasons. Pun-Pun, Jack B Quick, and Giant Chain Tripper#42 are pure wrongness. The kind of wrongness that should be hung on a wall like the Mona Lisa. (Or at least stickied.) There is no reason to be ashamed of being better at making characters. Don't hide behind euphemisms. Be proud of pwning the D&D character creation system.
InkBlot 11-21-07, 10:04 PM	Munchkin means, even outside of D&D, "child-like," "immature," or "small in size." It derives from the name of a group of child-like dwarfs in The Wizard Of Oz (yes, L. Frank Baum just made up the word). Munchkin is what you call your little brother when he won't stop whining about wanting to have icecream before dinner instead of after. Calling somebody a munchkin is dismissive at best, and insulting at worst (unless, perhaps, that person actually is your little sibling). This board has been inundated many times by people claiming, loudly, ignorantly, and proudly, that psionics was broken overpowered. So people who frequent here have gotten more than a little defensive. Still, I seriously prefer that psions and psywars are more balanced than wizards, clerics, and druids.
TheKeyofE 11-22-07, 06:49 AM	Wizards, Clerics Druids, Artificers, and Archivists AKA the Big 5 I propose a new acronym: WAACD (pronounced like "wacked") - Wizard, Artificer, Archivist, Cleric, Druid.
aotrscommander 11-22-07, 07:54 AM	Munchkin means, even outside of D&D, "child-like," "immature," or "small in size." It derives from the name of a group of child-like dwarfs in The Wizard Of Oz (yes, L. Frank Baum just made up the word). Munchkin is what you call your little brother when he won't stop whining about wanting to have icecream before dinner instead of after. Calling somebody a munchkin is dismissive at best, and insulting at worst (unless, perhaps, that person actually is your little sibling). Depends what circles you move in. Munchkin, in our little clique came into use with the purchase of the Munchkin's Guide to Power Gaming, which we all found hilarious (and in many ways, except for the actually cheating, actually quite close to the truth). Rather than 'dirty little cheater', it has come to mean 'person/character of quite ridiculous power sometimes with typically little depth' or 'stupidly overblown pyrotechically destructive thingy', both in terms of player or character. Naruto Uzimaki or Horatio Caine, would be, by our definitions, munchkin characters and our groups, being mostly the sort who prefer to shout FWAKOOM! and deafen our GM than worry about deep and interesting character development (though that has it's place, too) qualify as munchkin players, though not a one among us has ever cheated. So I too, consider use of the word as an affection. (For the record, I officially made Munchkin on the test in that book. I worried that I might have tweaked/exaggerated the answers a bit, then realised that tweaking the result to get the answer you want was entirely the spirit of munchkinism.) However, upon realising the nature of the word on the boards, I refrain from using it except to refer to our group in general.
AntiDjinn 11-22-07, 06:05 PM	Wizards (and anyone else who can change their spells day by day) will always come out ahead simply because of the sheer volume of spells published. Look at how many arcane spells are available between the PHB, PHB II, Spell Compendium, mulitple Complete X books, terrain books, campaign setting books, and even projects like BoVD/BoED. Compare that to the number of "official" powers in two books, plus a handful between hardbound supplements and the Mind's Eye. And as the number of specific spells mounts, so does the number that are overpowered. If you figure only 1-2% of spells are completely overpowered and broken, as the total number of spells climbs into the stratosphere that means it is possible to fill your caster's entire repertoire with spells cherry-picked from the upper end of the bell curve. In other words: Arcane Mark and Magic Missile are both first level, but they are on opposite ends of the normal distribution of power and utility for first level spells. As you push the total count of 1st level spells up, even without shifting the curve, the count for each segment of the curve increases. There have been multiple posters on this board asking for advice on picking a 5th level power for their psychic warrior (because they don't really like any of the choices) and some asking how to pick two X level powers for their psion (because nothing stands out, or they don't know what will synergize well with their previous power picks). When a wizard player is having trouble choosing spells it is only because he is faced with an embarassment of riches. Even if he chooses poorly, he is only stuck with the decision till the end of the day. Now I should also point out the flip side to this situation (though it matters at the table, rather than in the game): The players in a group with a psion will never have to wait a madding 45 minutes while the player chooses her spells (yes, example from one of my previous games) because the psion has no such day to day lists to be compiled.
T_Baggins 11-22-07, 06:56 PM	I propose a new acronym: WAACD (pronounced like "wacked") - Wizard, Artificer, Archivist, Cleric, Druid. How could I forget the artificer, and the crazed cruncher who got that class green lit.;) My friend plays one and he tells me about all the broken stuff he comes up with. I second the WAACD classes. We need another acronym or abbreviation to leave noobs scratching their collective heads. But it pretty much sums up their power level. But hey, somebodies gotta be more powerful.
Risingdragon145 11-22-07, 10:29 PM	I would like to see the magic system become something akin to power points. I love the fact that psionics is nicely balanced and when I compare it to the magic system I am left longing for a more streamline system..... maybe wizards will do that in 4e.... but I got alot of material for 3.5 and I really don't want to go over and render my books useless.... but what are you going to do? Also what book is the archivist in?
InkBlot 11-22-07, 10:45 PM	In 4e they're going to give magic users a mix of at-will, per-encounter, and per-day abilities. There are no power points in sight, although 4e magic may still be more streamlined, and Vancian casting is on it's way out. The Warlock is core in 4e, and completely replaces the Sorcerer.
larry_the_titan 11-22-07, 10:59 PM	Now I should also point out the flip side to this situation (though it matters at the table, rather than in the game): The players in a group with a psion will never have to wait a madding 45 minutes while the player chooses her spells (yes, example from one of my previous games) because the psion has no such day to day lists to be compiled. Sounds like you are playing with an ill prepared spellcaster. Currently I am playing a Killoren Druid 5/Ninja 2 and have never held up the game to compile a list of spells. I come to the game with 3 prepared lists to use depending on what is happening in game and what my character will be doing that day. I only have to make minor changes depending on story and current combat situations. If a wizard has to reset its spell list daily it doesn't have the level of knowledge it needs for its spells. At the comment about WAACD abbreviation its fine with me. But those classes aren't referred to as a group that often so it may not stick. I on the other hand have referred to them on more then one occasion and may use it.
AntiDjinn 11-23-07, 01:17 AM	Sounds like you are playing with an ill prepared spellcaster. No, I was playing with an indecisive player. Whatever her character (the spellcaster) was doing in the game had nothing to do with the fact the player had a stack of spells to choose from and would spend way too long debating the pros and cons of each. She had a complex about making a sub-optimal choice even for one slot. She should have been playing a rogue or fighter, or some other class who doesn't cause a delay of game every session. It was also partially the DM's doing; he gave the party almost twice the wealth we should have had by that level so the Wiz had an absurd number of spells in her book.
Lycanthromancer 11-23-07, 01:20 AM	Have her play a psion. No problems then, and she can even play a 'spellcaster'! :D
Crimson_Concerto 11-23-07, 01:29 AM	In 4e they're going to give magic users a mix of at-will, per-encounter, and per-day abilities. There are no power points in sight, although 4e magic may still be more streamlined, and Vancian casting is on it's way out. The Warlock is core in 4e, and completely replaces the Sorcerer.Well it wouldn't be difficult to adapt the system for Psionics. I mean, they too could have at-will abilities, but then they can get a certain number of power points per encounter that they can use to manifest one list of powers, and then they could get like a separate power point pool for a different power list that could be per day... Or something like that... I'm just saying it's not out of the question at all...
InkBlot 11-23-07, 02:13 PM	Oh, of course. I was just responding to Risingdragon145's comment about the magic system.