Manifesting without power display. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Manifesting without power display. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sages
07-24-07, 06:18 AM Is it too strong. Lets say that a CE level 10 Psion using concentration to manifest without display decides to destroy a city (Waterdeep) because somebody struck him with a tomato at the marketplace :) . He can cast 15 Energy Balls. In 90 seconds you have 15 explosions in 800ft radius, they start other fires. 8 hours later the fun starts again.
How can anybody detect him?
Is it so easy?
I don't find it very realistic.
runestar
07-24-07, 06:36 AM Supposedly, there is nothing hiding the "look of intense concentration in his eyes", whatever that means. I guess spot or sense motive checks might be in order, especially when people start looking out for the perpetrator...
Grimmsfeld
07-24-07, 06:39 AM How can anybody detect him?1. Psicraft? Yeah, I'm pretty sure psicraft does that. Er...with Detect Psionics it could...but that would require someone using detect in the area...
2. I wouldn't exactly call it an 800ft radius. I'm not certain on the particular locale, but assuming it's a city, like the name says, you're like not going to be able to manifest a power 800ft away from, simply because so manyy buildings would be blocking your line of effect.
3. This really hinges on 2, since it limits your possible area of effect so much, that since these 15 energy balls are concentrated in a much smaller area, it'd be a lot easier to figure out where the effect is coming from.
4. Divination magic/Clairsentience powers. I don't feel like looking up which powers could ID you, but I'm sure there's at least a few.

Maybe they won't be able to react to the first wave, but I doubt that let you rest to be able to do it again.
anarchy1973
07-24-07, 09:05 AM If no-one is watching or prepared (i.e) city guard have no magic for divination, then our Chaotic Evil friend simply turns up, manifests then watches.

I guess same as detective work, once the first couple of arson strikes occur, then the watch will be more alert, looking for people with "intent". Why you would roleplay that would depend on your DM, but IMHO if you wanted to do it in a smaller rural area I think you would probably escape without detection if you did it infrequently.
AntiDjinn
07-24-07, 11:01 AM Even if he doesn't manifest sans display, Energy Ball has an auditory display so it doesn't give away his position. An auditory display may radiate around the manifester or the subject (manifester's option). So the area that is hit with Energy Ball would also resonate with eerie sounds that could almost be mumbled sibilant voices (a la Scanners). Even with the display he never has to dance the hokey pokey or utter a sound. It exists only help someone make a Psicraft roll to recognize a psionic effect or even name the specific power.

What pegs the manifester is the fact that bystanders are not required to be complete morons just for being NPC's. He still has to concentrate and this can be noticed by anyone close enough. If people are actually looking for an attacker then someone is going to be using Detect Magic or Aura Sight or Detect Hostile Intent. In a city the size of Waterdeep there are plenty of people with character levels so they will be doing exactly what your PCs would be doing to identify an anonymous terrorist in the city, not simply standing slack-jawed while the city burns. There will also be warding on key buildings and magical defenses against a large conflagration; if it were otherwise then someone like Manshoon would have long since kicked the city down.
Bacris
07-24-07, 11:50 AM How can anybody detect him?
Is it so easy?

How does he have line of effect to all these places 800 feet away in a crowded city?

In a city like Waterdeep, or really any large city in a fantasy, high-magic environment, there are going to be countermeasures set up for such a thing, especially in a city guarded by high-level wizards (Khelbun, the masked lords, etc).

Assuming that a fantasy city has the mundane protection of a present-day city against magic is a bit naive - no offense intended. Consider the present day things such as metal detectors, spot-checks by police / police dogs, surveillance cameras.

Sure, it might not be fool proof, but such similar concepts would be around of a fantastic nature. Things that protect buildings from fire I can easily see in a high-magic, wealthy city.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-24-07, 12:24 PM Is it too strong. Lets say that a CE level 10 Psion using concentration to manifest without display decides to destroy a city (Waterdeep) because somebody struck him with a tomato at the marketplace :) . He can cast 15 Energy Balls. In 90 seconds you have 15 explosions in 800ft radius, they start other fires. 8 hours later the fun starts again.
How can anybody detect him?
Is it so easy?
I don't find it very realistic.

It's quite simple. He's the only one around not fleeing in terror (he's limited to a move action each round because manifesting's a standard action, he can't run). Anybody looking closely will notice he's concentrating on something (i.e., looking at places right before they catch fire), or looks distracted despite the huge explosions happening.

Since he's in a crowded area, I guess the standard rules for hiding in crowds apply to this guy with regards to a PC or NPC noticing him. He'd be pretty hard to find unless you had several people intently looking for him, right up until everyone has fled the scene and he's one of the few people left. If he has no place to hide or keep himself from being noticed, he's likely to stand out as an odd character in a disaster zone.
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 02:29 PM So he buys a ring of greater invisibility and then he...
Lycanthromancer
07-24-07, 02:52 PM But I houseruled that wizards, clerics, druids, and sorcerers couldn't do that, and didn't do the same for manifesters! zOMg! Psionics is overpowerdzordz! :)
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 02:54 PM Yep... Wizards are underpowered with their automatically scaling damage spells and their huge range of effects. Psionics should be nerfed.
Bacris
07-24-07, 03:09 PM So he buys a ring of greater invisibility and then he...

A ring that manifesters can't even make ;)
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 03:13 PM I suppose he could make an illusion over his normal form of a peasant freaking out, then noone would notice he's really staring at the explosions.
Thomar_of_Uointer
07-24-07, 03:19 PM I suppose he could make an illusion over his normal form of a peasant freaking out, then noone would notice he's really staring at the explosions.

Yeah, but psionics can't do that. At least, not to a whole crowd of people all at once.
DreamerInsane
07-24-07, 03:32 PM Simple solution. CE Hengeyokai Psion. Animal form is either rat or sparrow, with rat being more fluffy (They're usually evil, sparrow's usually good)
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 03:48 PM Yeah, but psionics can't do that. At least, not to a whole crowd of people all at once.

Well the psionic illusionist type PRC in Untapped Potential could. I can't recall the name atm.
Bacris
07-24-07, 04:40 PM I think you're thinking of the Illusion Crafter in Mind Divine :)
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 04:41 PM I think you're thinking of the Illusion Crafter in Mind Divine :)

That would be it. I'm AFB so couldn't check.
sages
07-24-07, 05:47 PM How does he have line of effect to all these places 800 feet away in a crowded city?

In a city like Waterdeep, or really any large city in a fantasy, high-magic environment, there are going to be countermeasures set up for such a thing, especially in a city guarded by high-level wizards (Khelbun, the masked lords, etc).
city.

Lets say I am on a balconie which gives me cover and a high vantage point. I can use metamorphosis .
I am aware that there must be some countermeasures, but how would they work?
forsaken1111
07-24-07, 05:50 PM Lets say I am on a balconie which gives me cover and a high vantage point. I can use metamorphosis .
I am aware that there must be some countermeasures, but how would they work?

Well in a city like waterdeep I would think a citywide divination field which detects the origin point of hostile magic wouldn't be beyond the local mage's ability.
CrimsonDeath
07-24-07, 05:55 PM You know, Spell-Like Abilities are even more powerful, because they never have displays to begin with.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sages 07-24-07, 06:18 AM	Is it too strong. Lets say that a CE level 10 Psion using concentration to manifest without display decides to destroy a city (Waterdeep) because somebody struck him with a tomato at the marketplace :) . He can cast 15 Energy Balls. In 90 seconds you have 15 explosions in 800ft radius, they start other fires. 8 hours later the fun starts again. How can anybody detect him? Is it so easy? I don't find it very realistic.
runestar 07-24-07, 06:36 AM	Supposedly, there is nothing hiding the "look of intense concentration in his eyes", whatever that means. I guess spot or sense motive checks might be in order, especially when people start looking out for the perpetrator...
Grimmsfeld 07-24-07, 06:39 AM	How can anybody detect him?1. Psicraft? Yeah, I'm pretty sure psicraft does that. Er...with Detect Psionics it could...but that would require someone using detect in the area... 2. I wouldn't exactly call it an 800ft radius. I'm not certain on the particular locale, but assuming it's a city, like the name says, you're like not going to be able to manifest a power 800ft away from, simply because so manyy buildings would be blocking your line of effect. 3. This really hinges on 2, since it limits your possible area of effect so much, that since these 15 energy balls are concentrated in a much smaller area, it'd be a lot easier to figure out where the effect is coming from. 4. Divination magic/Clairsentience powers. I don't feel like looking up which powers could ID you, but I'm sure there's at least a few. Maybe they won't be able to react to the first wave, but I doubt that let you rest to be able to do it again.
anarchy1973 07-24-07, 09:05 AM	If no-one is watching or prepared (i.e) city guard have no magic for divination, then our Chaotic Evil friend simply turns up, manifests then watches. I guess same as detective work, once the first couple of arson strikes occur, then the watch will be more alert, looking for people with "intent". Why you would roleplay that would depend on your DM, but IMHO if you wanted to do it in a smaller rural area I think you would probably escape without detection if you did it infrequently.
AntiDjinn 07-24-07, 11:01 AM	Even if he doesn't manifest sans display, Energy Ball has an auditory display so it doesn't give away his position. An auditory display may radiate around the manifester or the subject (manifester's option). So the area that is hit with Energy Ball would also resonate with eerie sounds that could almost be mumbled sibilant voices (a la Scanners). Even with the display he never has to dance the hokey pokey or utter a sound. It exists only help someone make a Psicraft roll to recognize a psionic effect or even name the specific power. What pegs the manifester is the fact that bystanders are not required to be complete morons just for being NPC's. He still has to concentrate and this can be noticed by anyone close enough. If people are actually looking for an attacker then someone is going to be using Detect Magic or Aura Sight or Detect Hostile Intent. In a city the size of Waterdeep there are plenty of people with character levels so they will be doing exactly what your PCs would be doing to identify an anonymous terrorist in the city, not simply standing slack-jawed while the city burns. There will also be warding on key buildings and magical defenses against a large conflagration; if it were otherwise then someone like Manshoon would have long since kicked the city down.
Bacris 07-24-07, 11:50 AM	How can anybody detect him? Is it so easy? How does he have line of effect to all these places 800 feet away in a crowded city? In a city like Waterdeep, or really any large city in a fantasy, high-magic environment, there are going to be countermeasures set up for such a thing, especially in a city guarded by high-level wizards (Khelbun, the masked lords, etc). Assuming that a fantasy city has the mundane protection of a present-day city against magic is a bit naive - no offense intended. Consider the present day things such as metal detectors, spot-checks by police / police dogs, surveillance cameras. Sure, it might not be fool proof, but such similar concepts would be around of a fantastic nature. Things that protect buildings from fire I can easily see in a high-magic, wealthy city.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-24-07, 12:24 PM	Is it too strong. Lets say that a CE level 10 Psion using concentration to manifest without display decides to destroy a city (Waterdeep) because somebody struck him with a tomato at the marketplace :) . He can cast 15 Energy Balls. In 90 seconds you have 15 explosions in 800ft radius, they start other fires. 8 hours later the fun starts again. How can anybody detect him? Is it so easy? I don't find it very realistic. It's quite simple. He's the only one around not fleeing in terror (he's limited to a move action each round because manifesting's a standard action, he can't run). Anybody looking closely will notice he's concentrating on something (i.e., looking at places right before they catch fire), or looks distracted despite the huge explosions happening. Since he's in a crowded area, I guess the standard rules for hiding in crowds apply to this guy with regards to a PC or NPC noticing him. He'd be pretty hard to find unless you had several people intently looking for him, right up until everyone has fled the scene and he's one of the few people left. If he has no place to hide or keep himself from being noticed, he's likely to stand out as an odd character in a disaster zone.
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 02:29 PM	So he buys a ring of greater invisibility and then he...
Lycanthromancer 07-24-07, 02:52 PM	But I houseruled that wizards, clerics, druids, and sorcerers couldn't do that, and didn't do the same for manifesters! zOMg! Psionics is overpowerdzordz! :)
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 02:54 PM	Yep... Wizards are underpowered with their automatically scaling damage spells and their huge range of effects. Psionics should be nerfed.
Bacris 07-24-07, 03:09 PM	So he buys a ring of greater invisibility and then he... A ring that manifesters can't even make ;)
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 03:13 PM	I suppose he could make an illusion over his normal form of a peasant freaking out, then noone would notice he's really staring at the explosions.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-24-07, 03:19 PM	I suppose he could make an illusion over his normal form of a peasant freaking out, then noone would notice he's really staring at the explosions. Yeah, but psionics can't do that. At least, not to a whole crowd of people all at once.
DreamerInsane 07-24-07, 03:32 PM	Simple solution. CE Hengeyokai Psion. Animal form is either rat or sparrow, with rat being more fluffy (They're usually evil, sparrow's usually good)
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 03:48 PM	Yeah, but psionics can't do that. At least, not to a whole crowd of people all at once. Well the psionic illusionist type PRC in Untapped Potential could. I can't recall the name atm.
Bacris 07-24-07, 04:40 PM	I think you're thinking of the Illusion Crafter in Mind Divine :)
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 04:41 PM	I think you're thinking of the Illusion Crafter in Mind Divine :) That would be it. I'm AFB so couldn't check.
sages 07-24-07, 05:47 PM	How does he have line of effect to all these places 800 feet away in a crowded city? In a city like Waterdeep, or really any large city in a fantasy, high-magic environment, there are going to be countermeasures set up for such a thing, especially in a city guarded by high-level wizards (Khelbun, the masked lords, etc). city. Lets say I am on a balconie which gives me cover and a high vantage point. I can use metamorphosis . I am aware that there must be some countermeasures, but how would they work?
forsaken1111 07-24-07, 05:50 PM	Lets say I am on a balconie which gives me cover and a high vantage point. I can use metamorphosis . I am aware that there must be some countermeasures, but how would they work? Well in a city like waterdeep I would think a citywide divination field which detects the origin point of hostile magic wouldn't be beyond the local mage's ability.
CrimsonDeath 07-24-07, 05:55 PM	You know, Spell-Like Abilities are even more powerful, because they never have displays to begin with.