Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bob Loblaw 02-03-08, 07:28 PM	Is there any way to gain the ability to use psionic powers without actually taking levels in any of the psionic classes? Alternatively, is there any way to gain a manifestor level of 1 without taking any levels in the psionic classes?
hogarth 02-03-08, 07:33 PM	The Hidden Talent feat (pg 67 of the XPH) gives the ability to manifest one 1st level power with a ML of 1. But it's intended for use in a "high-psionics" campaign.
InkBlot 02-03-08, 07:48 PM	In Complete Psionic (not for those who don't like headaches), there's some feats which grant psi-like abilities. There's Host feats, which are specialized Psionic feats which can only be taken by those who host a purely psionic being within them (e.g., kalashtar). There's also several variants of Hidden Talent, intended for use with the six "hidden houses" setting-less setting-material. Those feats from CPsi don't let you pick-and-choose your powers like Hidden Talent does.
CrimsonDeath 02-03-08, 09:20 PM	Any race with a psi-like ability has a manifester level. Hidden Talent lets you manifest a level 1 power as though you were a level 1 manifester, but it doesn't actually give you a manifester level.
Bob Loblaw 02-03-08, 09:30 PM	What I am trying to do is have only one power: metamorphosis. I would like to be able to use it several times per day but I do not want to be a psionic character. How would I be able to accomplish this, preferably starting use at around 5th or 6th level even if it's only once per day at that point?
flamepheonix182 02-03-08, 10:47 PM	How do you expect to be able to manifest a 4th level power with a manifester level 1? Especially without having any manifesting class. You do realize that with a manifester level 1 the most power points you can spend on a power is 1, right? (Note: Metamorphosis costs 7pp) I don't think its possible short of exploiting loop holes and I don't even know if its possible with exploiting loop holes
AntiDjinn 02-03-08, 11:04 PM	Free use of a 4th level power several times per day would have to be a DM gimme.
The_Mess 02-03-08, 11:52 PM	What do you want to transform into?
Bob Loblaw 02-03-08, 11:55 PM	How do you expect to be able to manifest a 4th level power with a manifester level 1? Especially without having any manifesting class. You do realize that with a manifester level 1 the most power points you can spend on a power is 1, right? (Note: Metamorphosis costs 7pp) I don't think its possible short of exploiting loop holes and I don't even know if its possible with exploiting loop holes I know there are ways to increase the manifestor level so I was hoping to be able to get one power with a manifestor level of 7 somehow. I've seen some pretty interesting things done with spells and was hoping there was something similar but weaker for psionics.
Bob Loblaw 02-03-08, 11:57 PM	Free use of a 4th level power several times per day would have to be a DM gimme. I would actually be able to use it as many times as I could afford to spend power points. The higher level I am, the more points I can get. It's also not like I'm trying to get this dozens of times at level 1. I would like a bit of a progression from 5th or 6th level on. It's really no different than a druid being able to wild shape multiple times per day.
Bob Loblaw 02-03-08, 11:58 PM	What do you want to transform into? Animals mostly. I would like to avoid having spellcasting levels. My goal would be to do this by using a class like fighter, barbarian, or something similar.
InkBlot 02-04-08, 12:15 AM	There's no way to get metamorphosis without taking levels in a psionic manifesting class. Psionics just isn't as cheesy as magic. But what you could get metamorphosis with 2 levels of Ardent, and the feats Overchannel and Practiced Manifester. You wouldn't be able to use it many times per day. You'd barely be able to manifest it. You'd have to take 1d8 damage using Overchannel to get your ML high enough. You'd also have to be a 6th level character, at least. Ardent and Practiced Manifester are from Complete Psionics. edit: Ardents, unlike any other psionic manifester, can learn any power that they can pay the power points for. A 7th level Psychic Warrior can spend 7 power points, enough to manifest a 4th level power, she can only learn a 3rd level power because that's what her class table says her max power level is. A 9th level Psion with Overchannel can spend 11 power points, enough to manifest a 6th level power, but she can only learn 5th level powers because that's what her class table says her max power level is. However, a multiclass Ardent1/Ranger4/Ardent1 with Practiced Manifester can spend 7 power points, enough to manifest a 4th level power, and can learn a 4th level power because the Ardent class doesn't have a "max power level known" table. And having a psi-like ability makes you a psionic character. If you have a psi-like ability, you automatically get the psionic subtype, even if you don't have any other psionic abilities at all. So there's really no way to get metamorphosis without being a psionic character.
Bacris 02-04-08, 12:31 AM	Psionics just can't do what you're looking for, because metamorphosis has too many loopholes that could be exploited in such a fashion. You'd have to devise some new power or template and have DM approval.
Saiyamantis 02-04-08, 01:19 AM	Sounds like what you're really looking for is a non-spellcaster class that can wildshape. There's a ranger variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) from Unearthed Arcana that gives up combat style for fast movement and wildshape, which leaves you with only a handful of spells to manage. If you have Complete Warrior, you can also apply the ranger variant therein as well, which will give you a wildshaper with no spellcasting whatsoever.
Bob Loblaw 02-04-08, 01:24 AM	And I heard psionics were broken...(I know they aren't, I just hear it a lot). Thanks for the quick replies and advice. I'll see what else I can come up with. I know I can just use psionic items, I was hoping to avoid using gear. The ranger variant (which is exactly what I want) is one thing I was trying to avoid. It's a long story, I'm trying an experiment and I don't want to tip my hand too soon.
The_Mess 02-04-08, 01:52 AM	Untapped Potential from Dreamscarred Press offeres a limited form of Metamorphosis called Assume Form as a third-level egoist power (5 pp). Alternately, you could take Animal Affinity (2nd level egoist/psychic warrior power, 3 pp, from the XPH) and pretend you've turned into an animal. Other psychic warrior powers let you take on animal traits as well (claws of the beast, bite of the wolf, etc.)
Lokiyn 02-04-08, 11:45 AM	You need the Berserk Prestige class (DD, pg 202ish) which allows you to turn into your totem animal a set number of times per day, Or you just need lycanthropy of a sort with the control skill, or as a third option you could just be one of the hengeyokai from OA.
Lycanthromancer 02-05-08, 08:45 PM	There is, of course, the skin of proteus (see the XPH). And then there's the level 1 metamorphosis (see the 'My psionics powers revision,' in my sig), and the Hidden Talent feat. :P It does only let you assume forms of your size, however. But then, you could get Hidden Talent twice and take mass modulation (ie, a compression/expansion hybrid).
AntiDjinn 02-05-08, 10:38 PM	If the DM agrees to let you have a Skin of Proteus at character level 1, then ask if he will pay your rent too.
Bob Loblaw 02-05-08, 11:17 PM	Clerics have a spell that allows them to give a spell to another character to cast. Is there anything like this with psionics? I looked through the XPH and didn't see anything, but the powers sometimes do things I wouldn't have thought of.
Khan the Destroyer 02-05-08, 11:37 PM	Hmmm, around level 5 or 6... I'm not sure on the wealth, but what if the character managed to pay someone to Mind Seed him? A 15th level NPC psion could Mind Seed the character, and the fighter or barbarian would know all of the powers known to that psion at level 7. It would have to be higher level then because Mind Seed is telepath-only and Metamorphosis is egoist-only. It will be costly, but it would at least get you the power known. I'm not sure how to get power points or manifester levels to use it though.
Bob Loblaw 02-06-08, 12:32 AM	Hmmm, around level 5 or 6... I'm not sure on the wealth, but what if the character managed to pay someone to Mind Seed him? A 15th level NPC psion could Mind Seed the character, and the fighter or barbarian would know all of the powers known to that psion at level 7. It would have to be higher level then because Mind Seed is telepath-only and Metamorphosis is egoist-only. It will be costly, but it would at least get you the power known. I'm not sure how to get power points or manifester levels to use it though. What if the Mind Seeder is an erudite? Could this work for gaining the power. Gaining power points is the next step, but let's work on this one step at a time. Also, besides Psionic Talent, what other methods would you use to increase your PPs to 35 by level 14 assuming you start with 2. I know that I only need to take the feat 6 times, but I was hoping to do a little bit more with my feats. I am thinking of starting with a psionic race, possibly elan or half-giant unless someone has other suggestions.
AntiDjinn 02-06-08, 01:36 AM	In order to learn Mind Seed (telepath 8) an erudite must be manifester level 17 or higher (he needs to be able to learn 9th level powers in order to learn an 8th level discipline-specific power). When this 17th level erudite manifests Mind Seed (the target could be a 1st level character) the result is a 9th level erudite. Well, you can willingly lower your manifester level to the minimum required to throw a power, so assuming this was done the result would be a 7th level erudite. But you really need the 9th level version, because you want to know Metamorphosis, which faces the same restrictions as Mind Seed. So you will have a character with 9 levels of erudite. Note: Not a 1st level character with the abilities to manifest at 9th level. This is a far cry from what you are trying to do. He will, by the way, be an exact mental copy of the erudite at the moment of germination, but for the level loss. Just FYI: If an NPC manifester with Psychic Chiurgery (telepath 9, so that is a 17th level telepath, or an epic level manifester of some other type) decides to spend 4000 XP to do you a favor, he can teach you metamorphosis provided you are able to learn it (have at least 7 manifester levels). Of course, if your DM's game features high to epic level NPCs who are showering gifts on starting characters as part of their backstory (the Mind Seed option is not exactly a gift, since it basically kills and replaces the character), then why not just ask the DM for a Skin of Proteus as starting equipment? A background element that requires an NPC (i.e., the DM) to have spent 3000 to 4000 XP is a gimme, so he might as well just cut to the chase and give you item.
The_Mess 02-06-08, 01:42 AM	Clerics have a spell that allows them to give a spell to another character to cast. Is there anything like this with psionics? I looked through the XPH and didn't see anything, but the powers sometimes do things I wouldn't have thought of. The two that come to mind are Bestow Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bestowPower.htm) and Psychic Chirugery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicChirurgery.htm). The first transfers pp, the second the knowledge of a power. Of course, you don't need a power to do it, as simply touching another psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnkn ownPowerFromAnothersPowersKnown) can allow him to manifest your powers.
Bob Loblaw 02-06-08, 10:18 AM	In order to learn Mind Seed (telepath 8) an erudite must be manifester level 17 or higher (he needs to be able to learn 9th level powers in order to learn an 8th level discipline-specific power). When this 17th level erudite manifests Mind Seed (the target could be a 1st level character) the result is a 9th level erudite. Well, you can willingly lower your manifester level to the minimum required to throw a power, so assuming this was done the result would be a 7th level erudite. But you really need the 9th level version, because you want to know Metamorphosis, which faces the same restrictions as Mind Seed. So you will have a character with 9 levels of erudite. Note: Not a 1st level character with the abilities to manifest at 9th level. This is a far cry from what you are trying to do. He will, by the way, be an exact mental copy of the erudite at the moment of germination, but for the level loss. I knew there's be a catch... Just FYI: If an NPC manifester with Psychic Chiurgery (telepath 9, so that is a 17th level telepath, or an epic level manifester of some other type) decides to spend 4000 XP to do you a favor, he can teach you metamorphosis provided you are able to learn it (have at least 7 manifester levels). I'm trying to figure out to get 7 manifestor levels without being one of the psionic classes. Some people have thrown out ideas like using the right race (some races have a ML) and using Overchannel if necessary. Of course, if your DM's game features high to epic level NPCs who are showering gifts on starting characters as part of their backstory (the Mind Seed option is not exactly a gift, since it basically kills and replaces the character), then why not just ask the DM for a Skin of Proteus as starting equipment? A background element that requires an NPC (i.e., the DM) to have spent 3000 to 4000 XP is a gimme, so he might as well just cut to the chase and give you item. This isn't something for a 1st level character. The character shouldn't be able to do this until 5th or 6th level, and even at that point not very often. This is not going to be a character in any game I'm in. It's more for a theoretical build I came up with. The character needs to be playable and balanced at each level.
AntiDjinn 02-06-08, 01:14 PM	However you try to build it, if the character build depends on something being done to him by an NPC, such as a gift via Psychic Chiurgery or a rewrite via Psychic Reformation, then it is something the DM is granting the character by fiat. The DM plays all the NPCs, so if one is friendly enough to do you a favor, or one can be hired and just happens to have the right powers, then the DM is simply granting a wish for you. The same applies if a build depends on an item that the character lacks the feats to make for himself. Also, Overchannel only applies at the moment you manifest a power, it does not affect the level of power you can know. It also does not apply to racial psi-like abilities.
hangedman1984 02-06-08, 02:18 PM	Animals mostly. I would like to avoid having spellcasting levels. My goal would be to do this by using a class like fighter, barbarian, or something similar. If your heart isn't set on doing this psionicly then you could always just take the barb prestige class, bear warrior in, I think, complete warrior. Hell, if you have a nice dm, you might be able to convince him to let you pick a diff animal than bear.
Bob Loblaw 02-07-08, 10:31 AM	However you try to build it, if the character build depends on something being done to him by an NPC, such as a gift via Psychic Chiurgery or a rewrite via Psychic Reformation, then it is something the DM is granting the character by fiat. The DM plays all the NPCs, so if one is friendly enough to do you a favor, or one can be hired and just happens to have the right powers, then the DM is simply granting a wish for you. The same applies if a build depends on an item that the character lacks the feats to make for himself. I am willing to spend the character's hard earned cash. I am not looking for fiat. Psionic powers and items should be as available as spells and magic items, at least for the purposes of this character. Also, Overchannel only applies at the moment you manifest a power, it does not affect the level of power you can know. It also does not apply to racial psi-like abilities. That's how I interpreted it as well. I was thinking of using it to use the power, I just need to figure out how to get the power. It may not be possible, but I'm not willing to give up too easily. I have seen things done with the system I thought were not possible.
Bob Loblaw 02-07-08, 10:33 AM	If your heart isn't set on doing this psionicly then you could always just take the barb prestige class, bear warrior in, I think, complete warrior. Hell, if you have a nice dm, you might be able to convince him to let you pick a diff animal than bear. I'm not set on doing it psionicly, I just thought it would be interesting to use psionics. I am trying to avoid prestige classes and I also would like to change into a variety of animals so I can have the utility that comes with shape shifting.
AntiDjinn 02-07-08, 12:37 PM	I am willing to spend the character's hard earned cash. I am not looking for fiat. Psionic powers and items should be as available as spells and magic items, at least for the purposes of this character. The attention of a level 17+ manifester is going to be way more than a level 4-7 range character can afford. That such a character, who just happens to have the exact power combo you need, and who happens to be selling his time and XP for cash, and who happens to be known to you and and available, it a DM fiat. Just marking the gold off your character sheet does not mean the world provides a given build. Character builds that require assistance from a willing NPC, divine intervention, or an exact item just happening to turn up, always smack of: Step 1: Steal underpants,...., Step 3: Rule the world. And then even if the DM grants you a really high level erudite who will ho his XP for gold, you still need 7 manifester levels to be able to learn the power. If your plan is: I will just buy it, then a Skin of Proteus has a market value of 84,000 gp. Just find where the DM hid the coin slot and declare that you now own the item.
Lycanthromancer 02-07-08, 01:47 PM	I reiterate: there IS my version of metamorphosis, (http://www.sendspace.com/file/nxiowp) but it has to pass muster with both you and your DM. It basically changes your appearance and gives you a few minor abilities, rather than the whole XPH shebang. It'd be pretty much precisely what you would want, however, especially with the addition of size changes from compression/expansion. Of course, you could always go for some sort of shapeshifter. Take changeling and ask your DM if you could take animal forms rather than humanoid forms. I'm sure this would lead to some interesting things, and really wouldn't be horribly overpowered if it didn't grant you any particular abilities (such as flight or natural attacks). If you take levels of egoist (and nab bite of the wolf and claws of the beast with Expanded knowledge) or start as a psychic warrior (and nab the XPH metamorphosis using Expanded Knowledge), you should be able to pull something off that approximates being an animal. But then, it'll be mostly changes in fluff rather than mechanics.
CrimsonDeath 02-07-08, 01:48 PM	The attention of a level 17+ manifester is going to be way more than a level 4-7 range character can afford. That such a character, who just happens to have the exact power combo you need, and who happens to be selling his time and XP for cash, and who happens to be known to you and and available, it a DM fiat. Or a really good Gather Information check (although the DC is subject to DM adjudication).
AntiDjinn 02-07-08, 02:06 PM	Or a really good Gather Information check (although the DC is subject to DM adjudication). Hmmm..... Try posting on the character optimization board as part of a build: Level 8: At this point, you make a Gather Information check to find an NPC who can fix your character. A build plan generally only includes choices you can actually make as a player. Actions of other characters (except, in rare cases, the actions of another PC) are not something you can plan on. And what happens: Scenario 1: Player: 1 rolled a natch 20! With my ranks, stat mod + Animal Affinity power stone, and skill shard, that is a total of 35! DM: Wow. You are absolutely certain that in all the world an known planes there are no manifesters of the level you need, with the powers you need, who are currently prostituting themselves. Plenty of others for hire, but those pushing epic level have other projects to work on. Scenario 2: Player: OK, I rolled a 4, so my total check is 19 DM: Yeah, there is such a person. Currently living in the gutter because he lost his home in the housing bust. He will do this for 4 gold, because I was planning on giving it to you anyway. You will still need to pay half the XP for the reformation.
Bob Loblaw 02-07-08, 09:00 PM	I reiterate: there IS my version of metamorphosis, (http://www.sendspace.com/file/nxiowp) but it has to pass muster with both you and your DM. It basically changes your appearance and gives you a few minor abilities, rather than the whole XPH shebang. It'd be pretty much precisely what you would want, however, especially with the addition of size changes from compression/expansion. If I was the one running the game, I would use the power. I'm trying to stick with WotC material. I know I seem stubborn, but there is a reason for it. I will suggest your version to one of my players who loves psionics. Of course, you could always go for some sort of shapeshifter. Take changeling and ask your DM if you could take animal forms rather than humanoid forms. I'm sure this would lead to some interesting things, and really wouldn't be horribly overpowered if it didn't grant you any particular abilities (such as flight or natural attacks). Unfortunately, those are the things I am trying to get. I am trying to get something similar to the druid's wild shape but I would like to be a fighter. I know this sounds really strange, but there is a reason for it. I don't mind waiting a level or two if I need to. Oh, and if this isn't possible, I'm willing to move on to another plan that doesn't involve psionics. It sounds like this may not be possible.
CrimsonDeath 02-07-08, 09:42 PM	And what happens: Scenario 1: Player: 1 rolled a natch 20! With my ranks, stat mod + Animal Affinity power stone, and skill shard, that is a total of 35! DM: Wow. You are absolutely certain that in all the world an known planes there are no manifesters of the level you need, with the powers you need, who are currently prostituting themselves. Plenty of others for hire, but those pushing epic level have other projects to work on. Scenario 2: Player: OK, I rolled a 4, so my total check is 19 DM: Yeah, there is such a person. Currently living in the gutter because he lost his home in the housing bust. He will do this for 4 gold, because I was planning on giving it to you anyway. You will still need to pay half the XP for the reformation. There's no need to be rude...
Lycanthromancer 02-07-08, 09:49 PM	Do you want to turn into an animal, or actually BE an animal? After all, if you want an intelligent wolf, say, you could either buy a headband of intellect or get a potion of awaken (or just pay for a druid to cast it for you). You could try to be a shifter from the Eberron campaign setting. Or pump your Cha really high, invest lots of resources into UMD/UPD, and then get a wand of polymorph or a dorje of metamorphosis (XPH version). It'll feel REALLY artificial, though. There's also natural/contracted lycanthropy, that race (from Oriental Adventures, I think) that can shapeshift into one kind of animal, and...um...whatever that template is that pun-pun once used. Maybe multiclass as a shapeshifting ranger variant (from Unearthed Arcana)?
AntiDjinn 02-07-08, 10:39 PM	There's no need to be rude... Sorry you took it as rude. I was trying to be funny.
Lycanthromancer 02-07-08, 10:51 PM	We all know you're cruel and insensitive, AntiDjinn. That's why everybody on the boards seems to love you. Err...wait.
The_Mess 02-07-08, 11:22 PM	Oddball suggestion: Play a Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. They don't actually shape-change, but most of the abilities they pick up are animal-themed and cary animal-like images around you. Reflavor as needed.
Bob Loblaw 02-08-08, 12:45 AM	Sorry you took it as rude. I was trying to be funny. To be fair, I didn't take it as rude. I did have to read it a couple of times to make sure. I also agree with you, to a point. I'm just looking for rules rather than plausible for game play.
Bob Loblaw 02-08-08, 12:55 AM	Do you want to turn into an animal, or actually BE an animal? I would like to turn into an animal. I was thinking that I could consider druid variants like UA and PHB2 instead of going with the wild shape from the PHB. You could try to be a shifter from the Eberron campaign setting. I was considering this, and combined with the druid variants, it may be interesting. Or pump your Cha really high, invest lots of resources into UMD/UPD, and then get a wand of polymorph or a dorje of metamorphosis (XPH version). It'll feel REALLY artificial, though. I was thinking the same thing that's why I've been trying to avoid it. There's also natural/contracted lycanthropy, that race (from Oriental Adventures, I think) that can shapeshift into one kind of animal, and...um...whatever that template is that pun-pun once used. That's interesting...I should look into that.
AntiDjinn 02-08-08, 01:07 AM	The OA race is the Hengeyokai. They have existed in various incarnations since 1st ed OA, but I believe the most recent write up was 3.0.
CrimsonDeath 02-08-08, 02:20 AM	Sorry you took it as rude. I was trying to be funny. Okay, yeah, I can see how that could've been funny if you'd been standing here. I just wasn't expecting hyperbole or a false dichotomy at that particular moment. Also, as I recall, I had a wicked headache.
InkBlot 02-08-08, 12:05 PM	The OA race is the Hengeyokai. They have existed in various incarnations since 1st ed OA, but I believe the most recent write up was 3.0. The most recent version of the Hengeyokai are 3.5E and were printed in Dragon Magazine issue 318. (http://paizo.com/store/magazines/dragon/issues/2004/318) They don't have a level adjustment in 3.5, if I recall correctly.
Legdiwena 02-08-08, 12:33 PM	Would it be unbalanced to make a variant fighter that sacrifices bonus feats for wild shape?
CrimsonDeath 02-08-08, 12:39 PM	Would it be unbalanced to make a variant fighter that sacrifices bonus feats for wild shape? Unbalanced against what, and how many bonus feats?
Legdiwena 02-08-08, 12:52 PM	I was thinking maybe 3 bonus feats.
teshen 02-09-08, 07:39 PM	Would it be unbalanced to make a variant fighter that sacrifices bonus feats for wild shape?I was thinking maybe 3 bonus feats. It's a fighter. It would probably still suck. :P Well, it's suboptimal, but if a druid gives up wildshape and an animal companion, he gets shapeshift. If a wildshaping ranger gives up his animal companion and wildshape, he could sub in shapeshift... Of course this could be too much of a reach even though it would be weaker than what he'd originally get. A ranger could also trade his spells for feats... but I don't recommend it.