Mantled Wilder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mantled Wilder [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
shion
05-23-07, 10:05 AM Mantled Wilder

Your focus allows you access to a psionic mantle.
Level: 1st and see below.
Replaces: You lose your elude touch class ability; also see below.

Benefit: You gain access to a single psionic mantle from Complete Psionic. You replace the elude touch class ability at 2nd level with the mantle's granted ability and gain access to the powers on the mantle list. In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity. If you chose the Creation mantle, you would have to learn astral construct and minor creation at 1st and 2nd level, for example. You are free to choose all other powers from the psion/wilder list.

This means that i have to take all of the powers on the mantle list? Or just the fist one?
TwoSix26
05-23-07, 10:30 AM Pretty sure you have to take all of them.
shion
05-23-07, 11:06 AM Well that just make everything worst limited selection on a clas with just 11 powers known?

What about people making their own matles? Anyone tried to do an human themed mantle? like

HUMAN MANTLE
Granted Power: You gain the feat Able Learner ( even if you don't meet the prerequisites)

I find troublesome to create a list that reflect the human nature but others might find apropiated powers
kyeudo
05-23-07, 11:18 AM Human is not a principle of the universe. Mantles represent fundemental principles that through careful study and insight an Ardent has learned to use that principle to affect the universee around him only the leverage of his mind.

The reason there is an Elf domain is there is a god of Elves. There should never be an Elf mantle because Elf is not a principe of the universe. Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle.
forsaken1111
05-23-07, 02:41 PM Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle.

I might actually make that mantle using psionic versions of spells which cause int/wis damage.

Inflict Stupidity, Mass anyone? 2d4 Int + 2d4 Wis damage plus Confusion. Save negates confusion and halves ability damage. hehe
rilem
05-23-07, 03:05 PM Well that just make everything worst limited selection on a clas with just 11 powers known?

Not sure what you're saying here, but I'm assuming its along the lines of "that's bad."

It's not, but you really have to think about it. Some of the mantles would work pretty well if you've got a focused build anyway. And some mantles don't have a lot of choices. (Note that you don't have to take ALL the powers, just one offering from each level, I believe).

Taking the Educated Wilder variant will help a lot, as those power selections come outside the rules for Mantled Wilder.
forsaken1111
05-23-07, 03:51 PM (Note that you don't have to take ALL the powers, just one offering from each level, I believe).

The sentence "In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity." makes me think you must take them all, and as soon as possible.
awaken_D_M_golem
05-23-07, 05:08 PM Yep.

It's bad, but trick-able.

PHB2 allows class features to be retrained. So, Elude Touch class feature can be retrained into Mantled Wilder.
And the time to retrain it is when you are getting out of Wilder all-together OR when some one specific power that isn't on the Wilder list - like metamorph - becomes available. This approach presumes that:
'what happens in Wilder, stays in Wilder'.

But this is a somewhat imaginative wiggling around of potential rules lawyering.

Playing it the other way, Magic Mantle is the only choice because of it's overall utility AND it's limited funneling of powers AND it's relative o.k. power choices, err ... non-choices.

Have fun.
Shado
05-24-07, 08:11 AM ALWAYS, always, always take the Educated Wilder option. It's 4 extra powers known.

So, with EW, Mantled Wilder still ties up your base 11 slot (sometime less if you choose the right Mantle.) While you are required to take powers right away, there's nothing stating you have to keep them.

Psychic Reformation

When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level.

The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones.

The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills.
XP Cost

This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly.

Basically, choose a Mantle with several powers you'd take with a decent granted ability, and Psy. Reform away the bad powers.

Lastly, while we're here... see if your DM will allow the Hidden Talent feat (XPH pg. 67). It's a huge boon for Wilders... a level one only Expanded Knowledge feat that also gives you a couple more PP. There's no reason not to take it as a Wilder if it's available.
forsaken1111
05-24-07, 11:02 AM Honestly, just see if your DM will let you ignore that stupid line about taking them all.
shion
05-24-07, 11:15 AM Human is not a principle of the universe. Mantles represent fundemental principles that through careful study and insight an Ardent has learned to use that principle to affect the universee around him only the leverage of his mind.

The reason there is an Elf domain is there is a god of Elves. There should never be an Elf mantle because Elf is not a principe of the universe. Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle.

Ok but what about Humanity, or Mankind or such? Why can be those principles? since you use abstractions,humanity is abstract enough in my book
forsaken1111
05-24-07, 11:17 AM Ok but what about Humanity, or Mankind or such? Why can be those principles? since you use abstractions,humanity is abstract enough in my book

Because humanity isn't part of the universe. Life, Death, Chaos, Order... those are universal constants. Humanity is one tiny creature in one tiny part of a few planes of existance.
rilem
05-24-07, 12:57 PM The sentence "In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity." makes me think you must take them all, and as soon as possible.

Yes, for some reason I had mistakenly thought it only applied on levels where you gain a new level power. apologies.

I agree that Magic's probably the best mantle, though for a Gish-specific Wilder (Say, Wilder12/Pal2/SanctifiedMind6) Conflict isn't so terrible. Several of the powers you'd want to take anyway, and there are only a couple losers. Use the Educated Wilder variant to grab some flexibility.
CrimsonDeath
05-24-07, 06:26 PM Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle.
Stupidity could make a pretty good mantle, come to think of it. It could have powers like Psionic Daze, Brain Lock, and Apopsi, just to name a few. Not sure what the granted power or aura would be though.

Basically, choose a Mantle with several powers you'd take with a decent granted ability, and Psy. Reform away the bad powers.

I'm not sure that'll work. Psychic Reformation says that you can undo decisions. If one of your class features forces you to learn power X at level Y, that isn't a "decision". It happens automatically.
Shado
05-24-07, 06:34 PM I'm not sure that'll work. Psychic Reformation says that you can undo decisions. If one of your class features forces you to learn power X at level Y, that isn't a "decision". It happens automatically.

I think "decision" is just a poor choice of wording. It specifically spells out that ...powers it acquired when advancing... without making it a conditional statement.

But... that's my reading. In the end, as always, it's up to the DM. So yes, check first before you plan on it.
Antendren
05-24-07, 06:35 PM While you are required to take powers right away, there's nothing stating you have to keep them.
While Psychic Reformation doesn't actually say it, most people assume you can only trade powers for powers which you could have legally selected. A 20th level psion couldn't trade Entangling Ectoplasm (which he picked at 1st level) for Timeless Body, for instance.

Given that, I would argue that since you couldn't have selected any power not on the mantle, you couldn't make any trades.
Shado
05-24-07, 06:52 PM While Psychic Reformation doesn't actually say it, most people assume you can only trade powers for powers which you could have legally selected. A 20th level psion couldn't trade Entangling Ectoplasm (which he picked at 1st level) for Timeless Body, for instance.

Given that, I would argue that since you couldn't have selected any power not on the mantle, you couldn't make any trades.

Well, you are legally allowed to know powers outside of the Mantle.

Mantled requires you to learn every power on the list, but does not restrict learning others.

I agree that you're still required to learn powers of appropriate level(s)... learning and retaining knowledge, however, are different conditions.

DM's can always rule that it's not allowed, but I don't think the rules specifically restrict it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
shion 05-23-07, 10:05 AM	Mantled Wilder Your focus allows you access to a psionic mantle. Level: 1st and see below. Replaces: You lose your elude touch class ability; also see below. Benefit: You gain access to a single psionic mantle from Complete Psionic. You replace the elude touch class ability at 2nd level with the mantle's granted ability and gain access to the powers on the mantle list. In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity. If you chose the Creation mantle, you would have to learn astral construct and minor creation at 1st and 2nd level, for example. You are free to choose all other powers from the psion/wilder list. This means that i have to take all of the powers on the mantle list? Or just the fist one?
TwoSix26 05-23-07, 10:30 AM	Pretty sure you have to take all of them.
shion 05-23-07, 11:06 AM	Well that just make everything worst limited selection on a clas with just 11 powers known? What about people making their own matles? Anyone tried to do an human themed mantle? like HUMAN MANTLE Granted Power: You gain the feat Able Learner ( even if you don't meet the prerequisites) I find troublesome to create a list that reflect the human nature but others might find apropiated powers
kyeudo 05-23-07, 11:18 AM	Human is not a principle of the universe. Mantles represent fundemental principles that through careful study and insight an Ardent has learned to use that principle to affect the universee around him only the leverage of his mind. The reason there is an Elf domain is there is a god of Elves. There should never be an Elf mantle because Elf is not a principe of the universe. Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle.
forsaken1111 05-23-07, 02:41 PM	Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle. I might actually make that mantle using psionic versions of spells which cause int/wis damage. Inflict Stupidity, Mass anyone? 2d4 Int + 2d4 Wis damage plus Confusion. Save negates confusion and halves ability damage. hehe
rilem 05-23-07, 03:05 PM	Well that just make everything worst limited selection on a clas with just 11 powers known? Not sure what you're saying here, but I'm assuming its along the lines of "that's bad." It's not, but you really have to think about it. Some of the mantles would work pretty well if you've got a focused build anyway. And some mantles don't have a lot of choices. (Note that you don't have to take ALL the powers, just one offering from each level, I believe). Taking the Educated Wilder variant will help a lot, as those power selections come outside the rules for Mantled Wilder.
forsaken1111 05-23-07, 03:51 PM	(Note that you don't have to take ALL the powers, just one offering from each level, I believe). The sentence "In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity." makes me think you must take them all, and as soon as possible.
awaken_D_M_golem 05-23-07, 05:08 PM	Yep. It's bad, but trick-able. PHB2 allows class features to be retrained. So, Elude Touch class feature can be retrained into Mantled Wilder. And the time to retrain it is when you are getting out of Wilder all-together OR when some one specific power that isn't on the Wilder list - like metamorph - becomes available. This approach presumes that: 'what happens in Wilder, stays in Wilder'. But this is a somewhat imaginative wiggling around of potential rules lawyering. Playing it the other way, Magic Mantle is the only choice because of it's overall utility AND it's limited funneling of powers AND it's relative o.k. power choices, err ... non-choices. Have fun.
Shado 05-24-07, 08:11 AM	ALWAYS, always, always take the Educated Wilder option. It's 4 extra powers known. So, with EW, Mantled Wilder still ties up your base 11 slot (sometime less if you choose the right Mantle.) While you are required to take powers right away, there's nothing stating you have to keep them. Psychic Reformation When this power is manifested, the subject can choose to spend its most recently gained skill points differently (picking new skills and abandoning old ones if it chooses) and to choose a different feat from the one it selected when advancing from its previous level to its current level. The subject can also choose to forget powers it acquired when advancing to its current level, replacing them with new ones. The subject can undo decisions of these sorts that were made at lower levels, if both the subject and the manifester agree to pay the necessary XP before this power is manifested (see below). The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills. XP Cost This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly. Basically, choose a Mantle with several powers you'd take with a decent granted ability, and Psy. Reform away the bad powers. Lastly, while we're here... see if your DM will allow the Hidden Talent feat (XPH pg. 67). It's a huge boon for Wilders... a level one only Expanded Knowledge feat that also gives you a couple more PP. There's no reason not to take it as a Wilder if it's available.
forsaken1111 05-24-07, 11:02 AM	Honestly, just see if your DM will let you ignore that stupid line about taking them all.
shion 05-24-07, 11:15 AM	Human is not a principle of the universe. Mantles represent fundemental principles that through careful study and insight an Ardent has learned to use that principle to affect the universee around him only the leverage of his mind. The reason there is an Elf domain is there is a god of Elves. There should never be an Elf mantle because Elf is not a principe of the universe. Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle. Ok but what about Humanity, or Mankind or such? Why can be those principles? since you use abstractions,humanity is abstract enough in my book
forsaken1111 05-24-07, 11:17 AM	Ok but what about Humanity, or Mankind or such? Why can be those principles? since you use abstractions,humanity is abstract enough in my book Because humanity isn't part of the universe. Life, Death, Chaos, Order... those are universal constants. Humanity is one tiny creature in one tiny part of a few planes of existance.
rilem 05-24-07, 12:57 PM	The sentence "In fact you must take those powers at your first opportunity." makes me think you must take them all, and as soon as possible. Yes, for some reason I had mistakenly thought it only applied on levels where you gain a new level power. apologies. I agree that Magic's probably the best mantle, though for a Gish-specific Wilder (Say, Wilder12/Pal2/SanctifiedMind6) Conflict isn't so terrible. Several of the powers you'd want to take anyway, and there are only a couple losers. Use the Educated Wilder variant to grab some flexibility.
CrimsonDeath 05-24-07, 06:26 PM	Stupidity has more chance of becoming a mantle. Stupidity could make a pretty good mantle, come to think of it. It could have powers like Psionic Daze, Brain Lock, and Apopsi, just to name a few. Not sure what the granted power or aura would be though. Basically, choose a Mantle with several powers you'd take with a decent granted ability, and Psy. Reform away the bad powers. I'm not sure that'll work. Psychic Reformation says that you can undo decisions. If one of your class features forces you to learn power X at level Y, that isn't a "decision". It happens automatically.
Shado 05-24-07, 06:34 PM	I'm not sure that'll work. Psychic Reformation says that you can undo decisions. If one of your class features forces you to learn power X at level Y, that isn't a "decision". It happens automatically. I think "decision" is just a poor choice of wording. It specifically spells out that ...powers it acquired when advancing... without making it a conditional statement. But... that's my reading. In the end, as always, it's up to the DM. So yes, check first before you plan on it.
Antendren 05-24-07, 06:35 PM	While you are required to take powers right away, there's nothing stating you have to keep them. While Psychic Reformation doesn't actually say it, most people assume you can only trade powers for powers which you could have legally selected. A 20th level psion couldn't trade Entangling Ectoplasm (which he picked at 1st level) for Timeless Body, for instance. Given that, I would argue that since you couldn't have selected any power not on the mantle, you couldn't make any trades.
Shado 05-24-07, 06:52 PM	While Psychic Reformation doesn't actually say it, most people assume you can only trade powers for powers which you could have legally selected. A 20th level psion couldn't trade Entangling Ectoplasm (which he picked at 1st level) for Timeless Body, for instance. Given that, I would argue that since you couldn't have selected any power not on the mantle, you couldn't make any trades. Well, you are legally allowed to know powers outside of the Mantle. Mantled requires you to learn every power on the list, but does not restrict learning others. I agree that you're still required to learn powers of appropriate level(s)... learning and retaining knowledge, however, are different conditions. DM's can always rule that it's not allowed, but I don't think the rules specifically restrict it.