Metamagic rods work for Psi? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamagic rods work for Psi? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
siegfried1
07-15-07, 09:13 AM Hi,
is there anything in the rules against using metamagic rods for psions?
If I use full transparency I do think not.
:confused:
Caterpillar
07-15-07, 09:15 AM Technically no they wouldn't, but you can essentially have the same thing just call it a 'Metapsionic rod' instead.
Tempest Stormwind
07-15-07, 01:03 PM Hi,
is there anything in the rules against using metamagic rods for psions?
If I use full transparency I do think not.
:confused:

Even with full transparency, feats are NOT transparent. You could use the metamagic rod to apply Empower Spell to a power... but it would have no effect whatsoever since Empower Spell can't affect powers.
The_Shaman
07-15-07, 03:25 PM Metapsionic rods? Where is this from?
Bacris
07-15-07, 03:28 PM Tempest - maybe this should go in the FAQ? It's been a common question.
siegfried1
07-15-07, 03:47 PM Even with full transparency, feats are NOT transparent. You could use the metamagic rod to apply Empower Spell to a power... but it would have no effect whatsoever since Empower Spell can't affect powers.

Why are feats not transparent?

When I read the rules in the magic item compendium on creating magic items with psionic vs. magic feats and spells / powers, it looks like this type of transparency is intended.
If the create feats produce the same results and if spells work on powers why should a magic item not work for the other side of things?
:confused:

And what would happen if a cerebremancer created a rod of metapsionics?:confused:
Tempest Stormwind
07-15-07, 04:08 PM Tempest - maybe this should go in the FAQ? It's been a common question.

Point, I think I will.

Why are feats not transparent?

When I read the rules in the magic item compendium on creating magic items with psionic vs. magic feats and spells / powers, it looks like this type of transparency is intended.
If the create feats produce the same results and if spells work on powers why should a magic item not work for the other side of things?
:confused:

And what would happen if a cerebremancer created a rod of metapsionics?:confused:

The MIC rules are explicit for item creation feats and override the general rules from psionics-magic transparency, which do not specify any feats.

Furthermore, look at metamagic: Takes up a spell level higher than normal. Psions have no spell levels, so they can't pay that. Furthermore, powers have no "spell level", and as any computer scientist can tell you, Null + 1 = NaN, not 1.

The mechanics are different. That is why.
ck2001wendt
07-15-07, 05:39 PM The only in-game method of getting a Metapsionic Rod is to have a Weapon of Legacy, which grants abilities for Psionics (or magic) that work exactly like Metamagic Rods.

Otherwise, just price a Metapsionic rod like you would a Metamagic Rod. However, since Metapsionic feats tend to cost less than Metamatic feats (usually one level adjustment less), you might want to slightly reduce the cost for the larger Rods (Twin, Empower, Maximize, but not Extend) over their Metamagic counterparts. Other Rods (Silent, Still, Energy Substitution) are just not relevant.
Fafnir
07-15-07, 05:47 PM The only in-game method of getting a Metapsionic Rod is to have a Weapon of Legacy, which grants abilities for Psionics (or magic) that work exactly like Metamagic Rods.

Otherwise, just price a Metapsionic rod like you would a Metamagic Rod. However, since Metapsionic feats tend to cost less than Metamatic feats (usually one level adjustment less), you might want to slightly reduce the cost for the larger Rods (Twin, Empower, Maximize, but not Extend) over their Metamagic counterparts. Other Rods (Silent, Still, Energy Substitution) are just not relevant.

I'd rather up the price. Remember that it's much more difficult to apply multiple metapsionics to a power than metamagics to a spell. Unless you require to expend your focus when using the rods... then a reduction in price would be ok.
DrStalker
07-15-07, 05:50 PM Maybe there are no official metapsionic rods because WotC realized they made a mistake with metamagic rods, and they are too powerful?

Just a thought.
zzo38
07-15-07, 05:51 PM I think you can use metamagic rods (they don't adjust spell slot levels), but it would take a full-round action to use as if you were a sorcerer. Quicken and Silent wouldn't work.
ck2001wendt
07-15-07, 06:52 PM I'd rather up the price. Remember that it's much more difficult to apply multiple metapsionics to a power than metamagics to a spell. Unless you require to expend your focus when using the rods... then a reduction in price would be ok.

That's what I do for the Weapon of Legacy my Psion uses, even though it doesn't say you have to.

Of course, this re-opens the debate about whether Wizards have to use the Rod when they prepare, or can use it on the fly.
ck2001wendt
07-15-07, 06:53 PM I think you can use metamagic rods (they don't adjust spell slot levels), but it would take a full-round action to use as if you were a sorcerer. Quicken and Silent wouldn't work.

Quicken doesn't work specifically because Sorcerers need a full-round to apply Metamagic. That is not the case for Psions.

Silent and Still wouldn't work because, well, Psions don't require Verbal or Somatic components.
ck2001wendt
07-15-07, 06:56 PM Maybe there are no official metapsionic rods because WotC realized they made a mistake with metamagic rods, and they are too powerful?

Just a thought.

Ummm...except there are...the effect is in Weapons of Legacy.

That, and WotC continues to produce new supplements with new Metamagic Rods.
TheDarkLord
07-15-07, 07:11 PM You could have a daily rechargeable rod that allows a certain number of PP's to be spent on metapsionic feats. You still couldn't exceed your manifester cap or anything, but at least they would save you some PP's.
DrStalker
07-15-07, 08:01 PM You could have a daily rechargeable rod that allows a certain number of PP's to be spent on metapsionic feats. You still couldn't exceed your manifester cap or anything, but at least they would save you some PP's.

More or less already available (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/cognizanceCrystals.htm). Bonus: you can use the power points for manifesting powers as well as metapsionic feats. Drawback: you have to charge it yourself.

A self-recharging item that does not allow the user to exceed her manifester level should probably cost slightly more; less if it can only be used for metapsionics.

I don't think allowing a user to exceed her manifester level via a metapsionic rod is a good idea, but I don't think allowing people to do so with metamagic rods/divine meta-magic is a good idea either.

ck2001wendt, thanks for the correction; I'll look that up when I get a chance. I didn't like weapons of legacy much so I barely skimmed it; I'll borrow the book again and look closer.
TheDarkLord
07-15-07, 08:14 PM Yeah, I know about cognizance crystals, and never cared for them much anyway.

My idea would look something like this:

A Lesser Metapsionic Rod grants the user a 6 bonus power points usable only on Metapsionic feats. Once the 6 points are used, it takes 24 hours for the Item to recharge. These bonus power points cannot be used to exceed the normal cap on augmented powers.

A Normal Metapsionic rod acts like a Lesser Metapsionic rod except that it grants 12 PP's.

A Greater Metapsionic rod acts like a Lesser Metapsionic rod except that it grants 18 PP's.

Just a rough draft idea, I can't Playtest it because none of my PC's are currently using Psionics at the moment.
DrStalker
07-15-07, 11:07 PM I'd make a slight change:

No more than (1/3rd of total PP) can be spent on a single metapsionic feat.

This avoids people stocking up on the cheap version instead of getting a larger one. (a 18 PP ro should cost more than three times a 6 pp rod)

And an optional change:

Use of this rod requires the user expend their psionic focus.

Not sure if that is a good idea or not (obviously the final cost would be different if the rod does/doesn't need a psionic focus. )
CrimsonDeath
07-16-07, 03:09 AM The problem with doing it like that is the single-source rule. You can't spend PP from your own reserve and a Cognizance Crystal at the same time on the same power, for example. These metapsionic rods would break that particular rule. (Not sure if they shouldn't be a specific exception to it, but that's what would happen.)

Alternatively, they could just apply the feat, just like a metamagic rod. As DrStalker said, this version would probably work best if the psionicist still has to expend his psionic focus.

Hmm... I bet it would be really unbalancing to have held items you can use daily charges from instead of expending your psionic focus...
DrStalker
07-16-07, 03:54 AM The problem with doing it like that is the single-source rule. You can't spend PP from your own reserve and a Cognizance Crystal at the same time on the same power, for example. These metapsionic rods would break that particular rule. (Not sure if they shouldn't be a specific exception to it, but that's what would happen.)

Alternatively, they could just apply the feat, just like a metamagic rod. As DrStalker said, this version would probably work best if the psionicist still has to expend his psionic focus.

I'd go for just add the feat (Metapsionic Rod of <feat>) or, if you want to be flexible:

Three times a day this rod can be used to apply a metapsionic feat to a power you manifest. The metapsionic feat must normally cost X or less, you must expend your psionic focus to use the rod and the resulting enhanced power cannot exceed your manifester level.

The value of X would be different for each grade of rod.

Hmm... I bet it would be really unbalancing to have held items you can use daily charges from instead of expending your psionic focus...

It's all about balance. Just ask yourself; would this be more or less powerful than Divine Metamagic, Persistant Spell and a bag full of Nightsticks? :-)

From a money-is-no-object point of view psions know every psionic power (Psychic Chiurgy, and then pay the telepath to give psychic chiurgy to someone from every discipline who can then teach you) and have infinite PPs (Cognizance Crystals they charges during downtime.) A 500 point Cognizance Crystal only costs a bit over 62 million gold pieces. :-)

In a game where equipment is balanced according to certain financial expectations (i.e.: default D&D) then an item simply needs to have a cost that represents its utility. Allowing an extra focus to be held is possible with a feat, and an item that holds an extra one shouldn't be gamebreaking; three focii in a round probably wont break a game that works with two. (although make sure you can't stack multiple items, nightstick style, for never-ending focus)
siegfried1
07-16-07, 06:14 AM The problem with doing it like that is the single-source rule. You can't spend PP from your own reserve and a Cognizance Crystal at the same time on the same power, for example. These metapsionic rods would break that particular rule. (Not sure if they shouldn't be a specific exception to it, but that's what would happen.)

It should be the only thing to break that rule. A torc of power preservation does just this and is not limited to certain feats. So a similar item exists.

An metapsionic rod that saves you -2 points for just that metapsionic feature up to three times per day and is priced correctly (and I assume the rod proces are balanced) should do.
I feel a rod for spellcasters should be more expensive as their slots are more valuable than 2 points to a psion.
Psikerlord
07-16-07, 08:00 AM We use psionic versions of metamagic rods in our campaign, exactly like the magical ones from DMG. Even without a psionic version, I don't think it would take much to allow metapsionc transparency with metamagic feats - if divine/arcane spellcasters can mix metamagic feats, why not psion/arcane or psion/divine casters? Regardless, the MIC item creation feat transparency rules lend support to houseruling simple metamagic feat transparency with psionic equivalents.
CrimsonDeath
07-16-07, 03:18 PM So what feat would be used to craft these metapsionic "rods"? Craft Cognizance Crystal?
Lycanthromancer
07-16-07, 05:33 PM Heh. Make them psionic constructs.
DrStalker
07-16-07, 06:21 PM So what feat would be used to craft these metapsionic "rods"? Craft Cognizance Crystal?

That would match the way things work for magic items, but remember there are lots of magic rods and zero official psionic rods. Unless you plan on making a bunch of other psionic rods I'd just use either regular, old fashioned "Craft Rod" or "Craft Universal Item." Otherwise the feat is too limited compared to other crafting feats.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
siegfried1 07-15-07, 09:13 AM	Hi, is there anything in the rules against using metamagic rods for psions? If I use full transparency I do think not. :confused:
Caterpillar 07-15-07, 09:15 AM	Technically no they wouldn't, but you can essentially have the same thing just call it a 'Metapsionic rod' instead.
Tempest Stormwind 07-15-07, 01:03 PM	Hi, is there anything in the rules against using metamagic rods for psions? If I use full transparency I do think not. :confused: Even with full transparency, feats are NOT transparent. You could use the metamagic rod to apply Empower Spell to a power... but it would have no effect whatsoever since Empower Spell can't affect powers.
The_Shaman 07-15-07, 03:25 PM	Metapsionic rods? Where is this from?
Bacris 07-15-07, 03:28 PM	Tempest - maybe this should go in the FAQ? It's been a common question.
siegfried1 07-15-07, 03:47 PM	Even with full transparency, feats are NOT transparent. You could use the metamagic rod to apply Empower Spell to a power... but it would have no effect whatsoever since Empower Spell can't affect powers. Why are feats not transparent? When I read the rules in the magic item compendium on creating magic items with psionic vs. magic feats and spells / powers, it looks like this type of transparency is intended. If the create feats produce the same results and if spells work on powers why should a magic item not work for the other side of things? :confused: And what would happen if a cerebremancer created a rod of metapsionics?:confused:
Tempest Stormwind 07-15-07, 04:08 PM	Tempest - maybe this should go in the FAQ? It's been a common question. Point, I think I will. Why are feats not transparent? When I read the rules in the magic item compendium on creating magic items with psionic vs. magic feats and spells / powers, it looks like this type of transparency is intended. If the create feats produce the same results and if spells work on powers why should a magic item not work for the other side of things? :confused: And what would happen if a cerebremancer created a rod of metapsionics?:confused: The MIC rules are explicit for item creation feats and override the general rules from psionics-magic transparency, which do not specify any feats. Furthermore, look at metamagic: Takes up a spell level higher than normal. Psions have no spell levels, so they can't pay that. Furthermore, powers have no "spell level", and as any computer scientist can tell you, Null + 1 = NaN, not 1. The mechanics are different. That is why.
ck2001wendt 07-15-07, 05:39 PM	The only in-game method of getting a Metapsionic Rod is to have a Weapon of Legacy, which grants abilities for Psionics (or magic) that work exactly like Metamagic Rods. Otherwise, just price a Metapsionic rod like you would a Metamagic Rod. However, since Metapsionic feats tend to cost less than Metamatic feats (usually one level adjustment less), you might want to slightly reduce the cost for the larger Rods (Twin, Empower, Maximize, but not Extend) over their Metamagic counterparts. Other Rods (Silent, Still, Energy Substitution) are just not relevant.
Fafnir 07-15-07, 05:47 PM	The only in-game method of getting a Metapsionic Rod is to have a Weapon of Legacy, which grants abilities for Psionics (or magic) that work exactly like Metamagic Rods. Otherwise, just price a Metapsionic rod like you would a Metamagic Rod. However, since Metapsionic feats tend to cost less than Metamatic feats (usually one level adjustment less), you might want to slightly reduce the cost for the larger Rods (Twin, Empower, Maximize, but not Extend) over their Metamagic counterparts. Other Rods (Silent, Still, Energy Substitution) are just not relevant. I'd rather up the price. Remember that it's much more difficult to apply multiple metapsionics to a power than metamagics to a spell. Unless you require to expend your focus when using the rods... then a reduction in price would be ok.
DrStalker 07-15-07, 05:50 PM	Maybe there are no official metapsionic rods because WotC realized they made a mistake with metamagic rods, and they are too powerful? Just a thought.
zzo38 07-15-07, 05:51 PM	I think you can use metamagic rods (they don't adjust spell slot levels), but it would take a full-round action to use as if you were a sorcerer. Quicken and Silent wouldn't work.
ck2001wendt 07-15-07, 06:52 PM	I'd rather up the price. Remember that it's much more difficult to apply multiple metapsionics to a power than metamagics to a spell. Unless you require to expend your focus when using the rods... then a reduction in price would be ok. That's what I do for the Weapon of Legacy my Psion uses, even though it doesn't say you have to. Of course, this re-opens the debate about whether Wizards have to use the Rod when they prepare, or can use it on the fly.
ck2001wendt 07-15-07, 06:53 PM	I think you can use metamagic rods (they don't adjust spell slot levels), but it would take a full-round action to use as if you were a sorcerer. Quicken and Silent wouldn't work. Quicken doesn't work specifically because Sorcerers need a full-round to apply Metamagic. That is not the case for Psions. Silent and Still wouldn't work because, well, Psions don't require Verbal or Somatic components.
ck2001wendt 07-15-07, 06:56 PM	Maybe there are no official metapsionic rods because WotC realized they made a mistake with metamagic rods, and they are too powerful? Just a thought. Ummm...except there are...the effect is in Weapons of Legacy. That, and WotC continues to produce new supplements with new Metamagic Rods.
TheDarkLord 07-15-07, 07:11 PM	You could have a daily rechargeable rod that allows a certain number of PP's to be spent on metapsionic feats. You still couldn't exceed your manifester cap or anything, but at least they would save you some PP's.
DrStalker 07-15-07, 08:01 PM	You could have a daily rechargeable rod that allows a certain number of PP's to be spent on metapsionic feats. You still couldn't exceed your manifester cap or anything, but at least they would save you some PP's. More or less already available (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/cognizanceCrystals.htm). Bonus: you can use the power points for manifesting powers as well as metapsionic feats. Drawback: you have to charge it yourself. A self-recharging item that does not allow the user to exceed her manifester level should probably cost slightly more; less if it can only be used for metapsionics. I don't think allowing a user to exceed her manifester level via a metapsionic rod is a good idea, but I don't think allowing people to do so with metamagic rods/divine meta-magic is a good idea either. ck2001wendt, thanks for the correction; I'll look that up when I get a chance. I didn't like weapons of legacy much so I barely skimmed it; I'll borrow the book again and look closer.
TheDarkLord 07-15-07, 08:14 PM	Yeah, I know about cognizance crystals, and never cared for them much anyway. My idea would look something like this: A Lesser Metapsionic Rod grants the user a 6 bonus power points usable only on Metapsionic feats. Once the 6 points are used, it takes 24 hours for the Item to recharge. These bonus power points cannot be used to exceed the normal cap on augmented powers. A Normal Metapsionic rod acts like a Lesser Metapsionic rod except that it grants 12 PP's. A Greater Metapsionic rod acts like a Lesser Metapsionic rod except that it grants 18 PP's. Just a rough draft idea, I can't Playtest it because none of my PC's are currently using Psionics at the moment.
DrStalker 07-15-07, 11:07 PM	I'd make a slight change: No more than (1/3rd of total PP) can be spent on a single metapsionic feat. This avoids people stocking up on the cheap version instead of getting a larger one. (a 18 PP ro should cost more than three times a 6 pp rod) And an optional change: Use of this rod requires the user expend their psionic focus. Not sure if that is a good idea or not (obviously the final cost would be different if the rod does/doesn't need a psionic focus. )
CrimsonDeath 07-16-07, 03:09 AM	The problem with doing it like that is the single-source rule. You can't spend PP from your own reserve and a Cognizance Crystal at the same time on the same power, for example. These metapsionic rods would break that particular rule. (Not sure if they shouldn't be a specific exception to it, but that's what would happen.) Alternatively, they could just apply the feat, just like a metamagic rod. As DrStalker said, this version would probably work best if the psionicist still has to expend his psionic focus. Hmm... I bet it would be really unbalancing to have held items you can use daily charges from instead of expending your psionic focus...
DrStalker 07-16-07, 03:54 AM	The problem with doing it like that is the single-source rule. You can't spend PP from your own reserve and a Cognizance Crystal at the same time on the same power, for example. These metapsionic rods would break that particular rule. (Not sure if they shouldn't be a specific exception to it, but that's what would happen.) Alternatively, they could just apply the feat, just like a metamagic rod. As DrStalker said, this version would probably work best if the psionicist still has to expend his psionic focus. I'd go for just add the feat (Metapsionic Rod of <feat>) or, if you want to be flexible: Three times a day this rod can be used to apply a metapsionic feat to a power you manifest. The metapsionic feat must normally cost X or less, you must expend your psionic focus to use the rod and the resulting enhanced power cannot exceed your manifester level. The value of X would be different for each grade of rod. Hmm... I bet it would be really unbalancing to have held items you can use daily charges from instead of expending your psionic focus... It's all about balance. Just ask yourself; would this be more or less powerful than Divine Metamagic, Persistant Spell and a bag full of Nightsticks? :-) From a money-is-no-object point of view psions know every psionic power (Psychic Chiurgy, and then pay the telepath to give psychic chiurgy to someone from every discipline who can then teach you) and have infinite PPs (Cognizance Crystals they charges during downtime.) A 500 point Cognizance Crystal only costs a bit over 62 million gold pieces. :-) In a game where equipment is balanced according to certain financial expectations (i.e.: default D&D) then an item simply needs to have a cost that represents its utility. Allowing an extra focus to be held is possible with a feat, and an item that holds an extra one shouldn't be gamebreaking; three focii in a round probably wont break a game that works with two. (although make sure you can't stack multiple items, nightstick style, for never-ending focus)
siegfried1 07-16-07, 06:14 AM	The problem with doing it like that is the single-source rule. You can't spend PP from your own reserve and a Cognizance Crystal at the same time on the same power, for example. These metapsionic rods would break that particular rule. (Not sure if they shouldn't be a specific exception to it, but that's what would happen.) It should be the only thing to break that rule. A torc of power preservation does just this and is not limited to certain feats. So a similar item exists. An metapsionic rod that saves you -2 points for just that metapsionic feature up to three times per day and is priced correctly (and I assume the rod proces are balanced) should do. I feel a rod for spellcasters should be more expensive as their slots are more valuable than 2 points to a psion.
Psikerlord 07-16-07, 08:00 AM	We use psionic versions of metamagic rods in our campaign, exactly like the magical ones from DMG. Even without a psionic version, I don't think it would take much to allow metapsionc transparency with metamagic feats - if divine/arcane spellcasters can mix metamagic feats, why not psion/arcane or psion/divine casters? Regardless, the MIC item creation feat transparency rules lend support to houseruling simple metamagic feat transparency with psionic equivalents.
CrimsonDeath 07-16-07, 03:18 PM	So what feat would be used to craft these metapsionic "rods"? Craft Cognizance Crystal?
Lycanthromancer 07-16-07, 05:33 PM	Heh. Make them psionic constructs.
DrStalker 07-16-07, 06:21 PM	So what feat would be used to craft these metapsionic "rods"? Craft Cognizance Crystal? That would match the way things work for magic items, but remember there are lots of magic rods and zero official psionic rods. Unless you plan on making a bunch of other psionic rods I'd just use either regular, old fashioned "Craft Rod" or "Craft Universal Item." Otherwise the feat is too limited compared to other crafting feats.