Metamind Persistant Power Cheese [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamind Persistant Power Cheese [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
crizhII
06-13-07, 03:06 PM After reading the current Metamind thread I've been fiddling around with an Erudite/Metamind as a potential thrall for my current BBEG.

Having read about Temporal Reiteration cheese I was looking at that and Schism and it occurred to me that this could form a reasonable simulacrum of Persistant Power except about 100 times better.

Provided you don't mind agreeing not to use schism for anything else you could just turn on Font of Power, manifest Schism and have that mind start manifesting Temporal Reiteration every round.

Not only would the Font and Schism continue indefinitely but any power your primary mind manifest on itself would never end (with the fortunate exclusion of Temporal Acceleration).

Additionally you could augment it and cause effects to persist on another creature so long as you stayed within 30'.

There's no save against that so you could use that to torture your enemies just as easily as extending buffs on allies.

There might be a couple of minor holes, any thoughts?
awaken_D_M_golem
06-13-07, 04:25 PM I hate to be the voice of reason, but ...

I'd give this idea a "sort-of".

You can keep (Temporal Reiteration + Font of Power) going sans 9 rounds per day.
So you are down your swift action every round, except your 9 "safety" rounds.
Schism'd mind is 6 ML down and wouldn't be able to manifest T.R. until very late.
But the Schism'd mind can certainly do other things.
And Practised Manifester might give 4 ML back to the schism'd mind, but I'd check with the board here as to the precise wording needed to keep your DM happy. If Schism + PM is OK with your DM, you'll need a few more acronyms to describe your Pow-Wah.

Have fun.
CrimsonDeath
06-13-07, 04:40 PM Actually, the combo looks pretty solid, except for the fact that you have to slog through ten levels of Metamind. Yes, you need two powers from separate disciplines, but if you start as a Nomad and go into Metamind as early as possible, you can grab Schism at level 15 (ML 10) using Expanded Knowledge. If you're a Metamind, your ML is going to be behind your HD anyway, so you'd be foolish not to pick up Practiced Manifester, and PM will definitely give your Schism the same boost that your actual ML gets. At character level 16 (Nomad 6/Metamind 10), you'll have powers as a level 11 Nomad with an ML of 15, and a Schism ML of 9 (which is more than 6 less than your HD, so your DM doesn't really have a leg to stand on while nerfing it).

So, yeah, it works... at level 16, if you start as a Nomad, or level 18 if you don't.
crizhII
06-13-07, 05:00 PM I hate to be the voice of reason, but ...

I'd give this idea a "sort-of".

You can keep (Temporal Reiteration + Font of Power) going sans 9 rounds per day.
So you are down your swift action every round, except your 9 "safety" rounds.
Schism'd mind is 6 ML down and wouldn't be able to manifest T.R. until very late.
But the Schism'd mind can certainly do other things.
And Practised Manifester might give 4 ML back to the schism'd mind, but I'd check with the board here as to the precise wording needed to keep your DM happy. If Schism + PM is OK with your DM, you'll need a few more acronyms to describe your Pow-Wah.

Have fun.

This rather assumes that a Schism'd mind uses your Swift action when it manifests a swift power.

Obviously this is a hugely contentious issue.

The power does say that both minds operate 'with complete autonomy, like two characters in one body.'

Two characters would get a swift action each in a round.

Schism does say that the second mind may only take standard actions. I don't see a problem taking a swift action as a standard one. Just like taking a move action in place of a standard action.

Even if you don't like that logic, you may ready any free action as a standard action.

Therefore, so long as it is treated as an independant, autonomous creature, a schismed mind may take a single swift action per round in place of its standard one. RAW.

Things get real confusing real quick if you want to do things the other way. For instance, what happens if the schismed mind ends up with a different initiative total to the primary mind?

Doesn't bear thinking about.

As to level, by the time you can use Font of Power your Schismed mind can manifest Temporal Reiteration.

Or near as makes no odds. Actually the build I'm working on is houseruled. I co-dm and the other guy has already altered Metamind to -3ML. With practiced manifester you can manifest TR as soon as you get Font regardless of whether or not PM counts towards Schism.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crizhII 06-13-07, 03:06 PM	After reading the current Metamind thread I've been fiddling around with an Erudite/Metamind as a potential thrall for my current BBEG. Having read about Temporal Reiteration cheese I was looking at that and Schism and it occurred to me that this could form a reasonable simulacrum of Persistant Power except about 100 times better. Provided you don't mind agreeing not to use schism for anything else you could just turn on Font of Power, manifest Schism and have that mind start manifesting Temporal Reiteration every round. Not only would the Font and Schism continue indefinitely but any power your primary mind manifest on itself would never end (with the fortunate exclusion of Temporal Acceleration). Additionally you could augment it and cause effects to persist on another creature so long as you stayed within 30'. There's no save against that so you could use that to torture your enemies just as easily as extending buffs on allies. There might be a couple of minor holes, any thoughts?
awaken_D_M_golem 06-13-07, 04:25 PM	I hate to be the voice of reason, but ... I'd give this idea a "sort-of". You can keep (Temporal Reiteration + Font of Power) going sans 9 rounds per day. So you are down your swift action every round, except your 9 "safety" rounds. Schism'd mind is 6 ML down and wouldn't be able to manifest T.R. until very late. But the Schism'd mind can certainly do other things. And Practised Manifester might give 4 ML back to the schism'd mind, but I'd check with the board here as to the precise wording needed to keep your DM happy. If Schism + PM is OK with your DM, you'll need a few more acronyms to describe your Pow-Wah. Have fun.
CrimsonDeath 06-13-07, 04:40 PM	Actually, the combo looks pretty solid, except for the fact that you have to slog through ten levels of Metamind. Yes, you need two powers from separate disciplines, but if you start as a Nomad and go into Metamind as early as possible, you can grab Schism at level 15 (ML 10) using Expanded Knowledge. If you're a Metamind, your ML is going to be behind your HD anyway, so you'd be foolish not to pick up Practiced Manifester, and PM will definitely give your Schism the same boost that your actual ML gets. At character level 16 (Nomad 6/Metamind 10), you'll have powers as a level 11 Nomad with an ML of 15, and a Schism ML of 9 (which is more than 6 less than your HD, so your DM doesn't really have a leg to stand on while nerfing it). So, yeah, it works... at level 16, if you start as a Nomad, or level 18 if you don't.
crizhII 06-13-07, 05:00 PM	I hate to be the voice of reason, but ... I'd give this idea a "sort-of". You can keep (Temporal Reiteration + Font of Power) going sans 9 rounds per day. So you are down your swift action every round, except your 9 "safety" rounds. Schism'd mind is 6 ML down and wouldn't be able to manifest T.R. until very late. But the Schism'd mind can certainly do other things. And Practised Manifester might give 4 ML back to the schism'd mind, but I'd check with the board here as to the precise wording needed to keep your DM happy. If Schism + PM is OK with your DM, you'll need a few more acronyms to describe your Pow-Wah. Have fun. This rather assumes that a Schism'd mind uses your Swift action when it manifests a swift power. Obviously this is a hugely contentious issue. The power does say that both minds operate 'with complete autonomy, like two characters in one body.' Two characters would get a swift action each in a round. Schism does say that the second mind may only take standard actions. I don't see a problem taking a swift action as a standard one. Just like taking a move action in place of a standard action. Even if you don't like that logic, you may ready any free action as a standard action. Therefore, so long as it is treated as an independant, autonomous creature, a schismed mind may take a single swift action per round in place of its standard one. RAW. Things get real confusing real quick if you want to do things the other way. For instance, what happens if the schismed mind ends up with a different initiative total to the primary mind? Doesn't bear thinking about. As to level, by the time you can use Font of Power your Schismed mind can manifest Temporal Reiteration. Or near as makes no odds. Actually the build I'm working on is houseruled. I co-dm and the other guy has already altered Metamind to -3ML. With practiced manifester you can manifest TR as soon as you get Font regardless of whether or not PM counts towards Schism.