Metamind: Font of power? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamind: Font of power? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Serge_P
09-07-07, 04:30 PM The font of power allows you to manifest powers free, does it include PP for augmentation? I.E can he cast an Energy blast with a pwn3d-zillion additional PP as augmentation? (Causing Infinite + 1 x d6 pts of damage).

Or can he cast Mindthrust with +½ infinite DC and infinite + 1 x D10 damage?

(If you want a number, change infinite into million, or billion, or gazillion or pwn3d-zillion)
Vharuck
09-07-07, 04:44 PM There's the ever-present limit that you can only ever spend an amount of power points equal to your manifester level.

Font of power merely supplies these points. You still spend them.
SlanderPanic
09-07-07, 04:48 PM Suck for free, for one minute per day.

That said, I should post up my non-suck Metamind one of these days.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
09-07-07, 05:09 PM Don't take Metamind. In the words of Admiral Ackbar, it's a trap!
StruckingFuggle
09-07-07, 05:14 PM Don't take Metamind. In the words of Admiral Ackbar, it's a trap!

I've always wondered (well, ever since I started getting into psionics just a while back), how much would that be different in a gestalt game?
kyeudo
09-07-07, 06:33 PM I've always wondered (well, ever since I started getting into psionics just a while back), how much would that be different in a gestalt game?

A Erudite/Ardent/Metamind could probably work out very well in gestalt. Gestalt is ridiculous anyway, though.
Tempest Stormwind
09-07-07, 06:46 PM That said, I should post up my non-suck Metamind one of these days.

...People keep attributing that to me. It's actually AntiDjinn's. I just repeated it a couple times.

(I *have* coined several longstanding terms on these boards: Psionic X, Death by Awesome, and even Nova. But the Metamind bash? That wasn't me.)
AntiDjinn
09-07-07, 06:55 PM The font of power allows you to manifest powers free, does it include PP for augmentation? I.E can he cast an Energy blast with a pwn3d-zillion additional PP as augmentation? (Causing Infinite + 1 x d6 pts of damage).

Or can he cast Mindthrust with +½ infinite DC and infinite + 1 x D10 damage?

(If you want a number, change infinite into million, or billion, or gazillion or pwn3d-zillion)
Yeah, you can change that number to 1 million -- if your manifester level happens to be one million. The points don't come out of your personal pool while Font of Power is active, but absolutely nothing else about the manifesting rules is changed (read Font of Power, and read the rules for manifesting a power).

If someone were to hand you a box with 20 cookies in it and not charge you, then how much does it cost? It is free. Does that mean you can have an infinite number of cookies in that box? No, you get 20 for free.
AntiDjinn
09-07-07, 07:03 PM There have been builds written that use tricks to take advantage of Font of Power (most notably involving Temporal Reiteration) but even they only work if you start the character as a 10th level metamind. If you actually try to play the character up to those levels then sometime between metamind level 4 and 7, while your character sleeps, the rest of the party will quietly break camp and abandon the useless XP sink you have become. The only major advantage to being a metamind is that when manifesters have their gatherings the metaminds get the handicapped parking.
Eikre
09-08-07, 12:48 AM (I *have* coined several longstanding terms on these boards: ...and even Nova.)

*Eyebrow*

Let's try...Circulated and popularized?
Tempest Stormwind
09-08-07, 04:27 AM *Eyebrow*

Let's try...Circulated and popularized?

Within the context it's used on these boards, yes. Since characters burning through limited resources is not a star exploding, the term in this context wasn't used beforehand.
Kyuketsukiouji
09-08-07, 12:42 PM While I wouldn't go so far as to say the Metamind "sucks", it's nowehere near as awesome as it first seems, mostly because of the 1/2 manifester level progression.

It does little good to have discounts on using powers, after all, if you get half the PP you'd normally get just going normal Psion.

Still, there are a few interesting advantages to it. Fount of Power looks nice, but unless you have Schism, Quicken Power or some other ability to offload powers rapidly, you're not exatly overwhelmingly powerful.

In my mind, the better ability is Free Manifesting. That's got a lot of possibilities, especially when used with something like Chain Power. Of course, the fact that at higher levels you only get 1 power per day again makes the ability rather substandard.

Personally, if I wrote the metamind all over again, I'd change the bonus manifester levels so that the metamind got extra PP at each level, instead of every second level, and I'd adjust Free Manifesting so it was always 3 per day.

That might improve things somewhat.
InkBlot
09-08-07, 03:33 PM Even counting in the Free Manifesting and Cognizance Psicrystal, a metamind has far fewer power points than a psion.

3 first levels = 3pp
3 second levels = 9pp
1 third level = 5pp
1 fourth level = 7pp
1 fifth level = 9pp
Total: 35

The cognizance psicrystal (assuming you have days between adventures to fill it up) gives you another 11.

A psion10/metamind10's base power points are 195.

In total, that's 241 power points.

A 20th level psion's base power points are 343. Before factoring in high Int scores, the pure psion has a hundred power points more than the metamind. And he has a higher ML. And he has higher level powers. And he knows 8 more powers.
Kyuketsukiouji
09-08-07, 10:23 PM Didn't I just say that?
PhaedrusXY
09-08-07, 11:00 PM What about combining it with an Ardent with Practiced Manifester?
InkBlot
09-09-07, 12:18 PM Didn't I just say that?
Yeah, but I like math.
sijigs
09-09-07, 05:36 PM I currently play a theurge and use dweomer of transference. Soo much better. :D
Kyuketsukiouji
09-09-07, 08:00 PM The only good thing about the metamind is that Free Manifesting lets you pour all the PP into augmentations/metapsi.

With Overchannel + Practiced Manifester, that makes for at least 1 decent power per day.

Like a 46d6 Energy Current, or something.

But that's really the best I can make out of it.
TheKeyofE
09-09-07, 09:25 PM If you made the Metamind 8/10 ML instead of 5/10, would it be worth taking?
InkBlot
09-09-07, 10:28 PM With 8/10 manifesting, a psion10/metamind10 would have 325 power points. That's still 18 power points less than psion20.

The metamind needs a major overhaul to make it into a good class. The concept of "lots of power points but not a lot of powers" is too shallow. I'd kind of like to rewrite it to center it around the schism power, metapsionics, and bonus power points, but I'm not sure I want to put in that much effort.
CrimsonDeath
09-10-07, 01:39 PM With 8/10 manifesting, a psion10/metamind10 would have 325 power points. That's still 18 power points less than psion20.
Plus 35 virtual PP from Free Manifesting, plus up to 500 virtual PP (over the course of a minute) from Font of Power (with Schism, Psychic Meditation, and Quicken Power). Minus your Int modifier (for two lost ML).
Fafnir
09-10-07, 03:10 PM Just use the Hyperconscious variant. 7/10 advancement, and each level you lose a power known to gain its cost in Max PP, on top of free manifestations and Font of Power.
It captures pretty well the "I'm an overspecialized Psion with a hellluva PP" concept.
InkBlot
09-10-07, 03:44 PM Plus 35 virtual PP from Free Manifesting, plus up to 500 virtual PP (over the course of a minute) from Font of Power (with Schism, Psychic Meditation, and Quicken Power). Minus your Int modifier (for two lost ML).

No, I already factored in the 35 from free manifesting and the 11 cognizance psicrystal (I know it doesn't recharge on it's own, I'm assuming that it was charged up on a previous day).

I wasn't factoring in Int modifiers originally, but if we gave the psion and metamind each a 22 Int (easy to get by level 20) then the metamind gets an extra 57 while the psion gets an extra 60pp. The gap grows very slowly as the Int scores go up -- even at 40 Int it's only a difference of 8.

I didn't take into account Font Of Power because we all know it's there. Personally I think that Metaminds shouldn't have to rely on their Font Of Power. It's a capstone ability. Capstone abilities should be nice bonuses, but you can't base a whole class around them. Look at the Elocator, for instance. Imagine if the Elocator didn't get Scorn Earth until 10th level.
kyeudo
09-10-07, 03:49 PM Interesting though on the Metamind. They rely so much on Font of Power, why not make a fix that gives them 1 round per level of Font of Power, divisible as they choose, then give them a new capstone ability.
The_Ditto
09-10-07, 03:58 PM a different tactic (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/prcenduringmind) in re-doing the metamind ... :tiphat:
CrimsonDeath
09-10-07, 05:05 PM Interesting though on the Metamind. They rely so much on Font of Power, why not make a fix that gives them 1 round per level of Font of Power, divisible as they choose, then give them a new capstone ability.
Allowing them to divide it as they choose would open up some new cans of worms. Even one round of unlimited PP could allow for an impressive Nova, so it would allow the Metamind to Nova every encounter. 1 round/level 1/day might not be bad, though.
Lycanthromancer
09-10-07, 05:07 PM 1 round/metamind level, EVERY metamind level, of free manifesting, split up how you choose?

This might be workable...
Nephlite
09-10-07, 06:08 PM 1 round/metamind level, EVERY metamind level, of free manifesting, split up how you choose?

This might be workable...

Yeah:
So at level 1: you have 1 free manifest at max
Etc
Level 10: you can do it 10 times.

The free part is better than the current one (free without augments).
Kyuketsukiouji
09-10-07, 07:34 PM Well, free with augments leads to the problem of figuring out how much of 0 pp you can spend per power use. Otherwise, I'll manifest Ego Whip for free, and augment it 1000 times...still for free.

No thanks.

Personally, I just think the Metamind needs more Free Manifesting, and maybe a reduction in augmentation costs every now and then.

At the least, since a Psion 10/Metamind 10 will get 8th level powers, they should be able to Free Manifest up to 8th level (or at least 7th) powers.
NineInchNall
09-11-07, 02:37 PM You're level 15 Metamind.

Your cohort is a Psion 13? He manifests more and better powers than you.

Metamind = Fail.

Your cohort's cohort is a Psion 11? He manifests better powers than you.

Metamind = ultrafail.

I think the whole dropping manifester levels thing is bad mojo in general.

It's one of the few things I dislike about Psionics. Casters in D&D have a very simple criterion by which they can be considered up to snuff for their level: the spells they cast. If you drop a caster level, manifester level, or character level, or any other arbitrary value that determines whether you are in fact tall enough to ride a ride, then you can't very well ride the ride, can you?

It's like introducing the dual caster problem into each and every PrC. That's flat out boneheaded.
InkBlot
09-11-07, 03:10 PM Well, free with augments leads to the problem of figuring out how much of 0 pp you can spend per power use. Otherwise, I'll manifest Ego Whip for free, and augment it 1000 times...still for free.

No thanks.
That's exactly how Font Of Power works now. It's not a problem. It's a non-problem. Just say they get an effect as if they had spent a number of power points equal to their manifester level. Easy peasy. Nice and easy. Light and breezy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Serge_P 09-07-07, 04:30 PM	The font of power allows you to manifest powers free, does it include PP for augmentation? I.E can he cast an Energy blast with a pwn3d-zillion additional PP as augmentation? (Causing Infinite + 1 x d6 pts of damage). Or can he cast Mindthrust with +½ infinite DC and infinite + 1 x D10 damage? (If you want a number, change infinite into million, or billion, or gazillion or pwn3d-zillion)
Vharuck 09-07-07, 04:44 PM	There's the ever-present limit that you can only ever spend an amount of power points equal to your manifester level. Font of power merely supplies these points. You still spend them.
SlanderPanic 09-07-07, 04:48 PM	Suck for free, for one minute per day. That said, I should post up my non-suck Metamind one of these days.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 09-07-07, 05:09 PM	Don't take Metamind. In the words of Admiral Ackbar, it's a trap!
StruckingFuggle 09-07-07, 05:14 PM	Don't take Metamind. In the words of Admiral Ackbar, it's a trap! I've always wondered (well, ever since I started getting into psionics just a while back), how much would that be different in a gestalt game?
kyeudo 09-07-07, 06:33 PM	I've always wondered (well, ever since I started getting into psionics just a while back), how much would that be different in a gestalt game? A Erudite/Ardent/Metamind could probably work out very well in gestalt. Gestalt is ridiculous anyway, though.
Tempest Stormwind 09-07-07, 06:46 PM	That said, I should post up my non-suck Metamind one of these days. ...People keep attributing that to me. It's actually AntiDjinn's. I just repeated it a couple times. (I have coined several longstanding terms on these boards: Psionic X, Death by Awesome, and even Nova. But the Metamind bash? That wasn't me.)
AntiDjinn 09-07-07, 06:55 PM	The font of power allows you to manifest powers free, does it include PP for augmentation? I.E can he cast an Energy blast with a pwn3d-zillion additional PP as augmentation? (Causing Infinite + 1 x d6 pts of damage). Or can he cast Mindthrust with +½ infinite DC and infinite + 1 x D10 damage? (If you want a number, change infinite into million, or billion, or gazillion or pwn3d-zillion) Yeah, you can change that number to 1 million -- if your manifester level happens to be one million. The points don't come out of your personal pool while Font of Power is active, but absolutely nothing else about the manifesting rules is changed (read Font of Power, and read the rules for manifesting a power). If someone were to hand you a box with 20 cookies in it and not charge you, then how much does it cost? It is free. Does that mean you can have an infinite number of cookies in that box? No, you get 20 for free.
AntiDjinn 09-07-07, 07:03 PM	There have been builds written that use tricks to take advantage of Font of Power (most notably involving Temporal Reiteration) but even they only work if you start the character as a 10th level metamind. If you actually try to play the character up to those levels then sometime between metamind level 4 and 7, while your character sleeps, the rest of the party will quietly break camp and abandon the useless XP sink you have become. The only major advantage to being a metamind is that when manifesters have their gatherings the metaminds get the handicapped parking.
Eikre 09-08-07, 12:48 AM	(I have coined several longstanding terms on these boards: ...and even Nova.) Eyebrow Let's try...Circulated and popularized?
Tempest Stormwind 09-08-07, 04:27 AM	Eyebrow Let's try...Circulated and popularized? Within the context it's used on these boards, yes. Since characters burning through limited resources is not a star exploding, the term in this context wasn't used beforehand.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-08-07, 12:42 PM	While I wouldn't go so far as to say the Metamind "sucks", it's nowehere near as awesome as it first seems, mostly because of the 1/2 manifester level progression. It does little good to have discounts on using powers, after all, if you get half the PP you'd normally get just going normal Psion. Still, there are a few interesting advantages to it. Fount of Power looks nice, but unless you have Schism, Quicken Power or some other ability to offload powers rapidly, you're not exatly overwhelmingly powerful. In my mind, the better ability is Free Manifesting. That's got a lot of possibilities, especially when used with something like Chain Power. Of course, the fact that at higher levels you only get 1 power per day again makes the ability rather substandard. Personally, if I wrote the metamind all over again, I'd change the bonus manifester levels so that the metamind got extra PP at each level, instead of every second level, and I'd adjust Free Manifesting so it was always 3 per day. That might improve things somewhat.
InkBlot 09-08-07, 03:33 PM	Even counting in the Free Manifesting and Cognizance Psicrystal, a metamind has far fewer power points than a psion. 3 first levels = 3pp 3 second levels = 9pp 1 third level = 5pp 1 fourth level = 7pp 1 fifth level = 9pp Total: 35 The cognizance psicrystal (assuming you have days between adventures to fill it up) gives you another 11. A psion10/metamind10's base power points are 195. In total, that's 241 power points. A 20th level psion's base power points are 343. Before factoring in high Int scores, the pure psion has a hundred power points more than the metamind. And he has a higher ML. And he has higher level powers. And he knows 8 more powers.
Kyuketsukiouji 09-08-07, 10:23 PM	Didn't I just say that?
PhaedrusXY 09-08-07, 11:00 PM	What about combining it with an Ardent with Practiced Manifester?
InkBlot 09-09-07, 12:18 PM	Didn't I just say that? Yeah, but I like math.
sijigs 09-09-07, 05:36 PM	I currently play a theurge and use dweomer of transference. Soo much better. :D
Kyuketsukiouji 09-09-07, 08:00 PM	The only good thing about the metamind is that Free Manifesting lets you pour all the PP into augmentations/metapsi. With Overchannel + Practiced Manifester, that makes for at least 1 decent power per day. Like a 46d6 Energy Current, or something. But that's really the best I can make out of it.
TheKeyofE 09-09-07, 09:25 PM	If you made the Metamind 8/10 ML instead of 5/10, would it be worth taking?
InkBlot 09-09-07, 10:28 PM	With 8/10 manifesting, a psion10/metamind10 would have 325 power points. That's still 18 power points less than psion20. The metamind needs a major overhaul to make it into a good class. The concept of "lots of power points but not a lot of powers" is too shallow. I'd kind of like to rewrite it to center it around the schism power, metapsionics, and bonus power points, but I'm not sure I want to put in that much effort.
CrimsonDeath 09-10-07, 01:39 PM	With 8/10 manifesting, a psion10/metamind10 would have 325 power points. That's still 18 power points less than psion20. Plus 35 virtual PP from Free Manifesting, plus up to 500 virtual PP (over the course of a minute) from Font of Power (with Schism, Psychic Meditation, and Quicken Power). Minus your Int modifier (for two lost ML).
Fafnir 09-10-07, 03:10 PM	Just use the Hyperconscious variant. 7/10 advancement, and each level you lose a power known to gain its cost in Max PP, on top of free manifestations and Font of Power. It captures pretty well the "I'm an overspecialized Psion with a hellluva PP" concept.
InkBlot 09-10-07, 03:44 PM	Plus 35 virtual PP from Free Manifesting, plus up to 500 virtual PP (over the course of a minute) from Font of Power (with Schism, Psychic Meditation, and Quicken Power). Minus your Int modifier (for two lost ML). No, I already factored in the 35 from free manifesting and the 11 cognizance psicrystal (I know it doesn't recharge on it's own, I'm assuming that it was charged up on a previous day). I wasn't factoring in Int modifiers originally, but if we gave the psion and metamind each a 22 Int (easy to get by level 20) then the metamind gets an extra 57 while the psion gets an extra 60pp. The gap grows very slowly as the Int scores go up -- even at 40 Int it's only a difference of 8. I didn't take into account Font Of Power because we all know it's there. Personally I think that Metaminds shouldn't have to rely on their Font Of Power. It's a capstone ability. Capstone abilities should be nice bonuses, but you can't base a whole class around them. Look at the Elocator, for instance. Imagine if the Elocator didn't get Scorn Earth until 10th level.
kyeudo 09-10-07, 03:49 PM	Interesting though on the Metamind. They rely so much on Font of Power, why not make a fix that gives them 1 round per level of Font of Power, divisible as they choose, then give them a new capstone ability.
The_Ditto 09-10-07, 03:58 PM	a different tactic (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/prcenduringmind) in re-doing the metamind ... :tiphat:
CrimsonDeath 09-10-07, 05:05 PM	Interesting though on the Metamind. They rely so much on Font of Power, why not make a fix that gives them 1 round per level of Font of Power, divisible as they choose, then give them a new capstone ability. Allowing them to divide it as they choose would open up some new cans of worms. Even one round of unlimited PP could allow for an impressive Nova, so it would allow the Metamind to Nova every encounter. 1 round/level 1/day might not be bad, though.
Lycanthromancer 09-10-07, 05:07 PM	1 round/metamind level, EVERY metamind level, of free manifesting, split up how you choose? This might be workable...
Nephlite 09-10-07, 06:08 PM	1 round/metamind level, EVERY metamind level, of free manifesting, split up how you choose? This might be workable... Yeah: So at level 1: you have 1 free manifest at max Etc Level 10: you can do it 10 times. The free part is better than the current one (free without augments).
Kyuketsukiouji 09-10-07, 07:34 PM	Well, free with augments leads to the problem of figuring out how much of 0 pp you can spend per power use. Otherwise, I'll manifest Ego Whip for free, and augment it 1000 times...still for free. No thanks. Personally, I just think the Metamind needs more Free Manifesting, and maybe a reduction in augmentation costs every now and then. At the least, since a Psion 10/Metamind 10 will get 8th level powers, they should be able to Free Manifest up to 8th level (or at least 7th) powers.
NineInchNall 09-11-07, 02:37 PM	You're level 15 Metamind. Your cohort is a Psion 13? He manifests more and better powers than you. Metamind = Fail. Your cohort's cohort is a Psion 11? He manifests better powers than you. Metamind = ultrafail. I think the whole dropping manifester levels thing is bad mojo in general. It's one of the few things I dislike about Psionics. Casters in D&D have a very simple criterion by which they can be considered up to snuff for their level: the spells they cast. If you drop a caster level, manifester level, or character level, or any other arbitrary value that determines whether you are in fact tall enough to ride a ride, then you can't very well ride the ride, can you? It's like introducing the dual caster problem into each and every PrC. That's flat out boneheaded.
InkBlot 09-11-07, 03:10 PM	Well, free with augments leads to the problem of figuring out how much of 0 pp you can spend per power use. Otherwise, I'll manifest Ego Whip for free, and augment it 1000 times...still for free. No thanks. That's exactly how Font Of Power works now. It's not a problem. It's a non-problem. Just say they get an effect as if they had spent a number of power points equal to their manifester level. Easy peasy. Nice and easy. Light and breezy.