Metamind: Worth taking? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamind: Worth taking? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Moosh Nailo
05-19-07, 01:15 PM Dm likes to run campaigns that give characters little to no rest, throwing challenge after challenge at us. One of the other players feels like playing a psion, and was wondering if advancing as a Metamind would be worth it. He'd be our only caster-type, so none of us are very keen about him losing out on 5 manifesting levels, but the free manifestations are alluring.

Any advice? Or are there any other (possibly homebrew) PrCs that would be useful?
glacialcat
05-19-07, 01:23 PM Tempest Stormwind has a saying about the Metamind that I like: Metaminds suck, but once per day they can suck for free for a minute.

In general, no, Metamind is not worth it. The big thing about Metamind is supposed to be that they have more PP but lower level powers... but because they loose so many manifestor levels, they end up with much less PP, lower level powers, and can't augment as much as a regular psion could. But they get Font of Power, which is a nice capstone ability... but not worth going through the rest of the horrible class.

If you can get the DM to allow it, consider the Hyperconscious variant Metamind. It only looses 3 manifestor levels, so it might actually be worth it.

One of the easier ways to see how much Metamind sucks is to look at Font of Power. If you don't have a way to boost your manifestor level, at Lv.20 you'll be able to spend 15 PP on any one power. Since Font of Power can be used for only one minute, that equals to a max of 150 PP. A Lv.10 Psion/15 Metamind would have 195 base PP. A Lv.20 Psion would have 343 PP. 195 + 150 = 345. You just lost 5 manifestor levels to have 2 more PP if you use a 15 PP power every round during Font of Power, and thats not counting the fact that a Lv.20 manifestor would receive more bonus PP from a high ability score than a Lv.15 one.

An Ardent with Practiced Manifestor can make up for some of these issues, because Ardents select their powers known based on manifestor level, not actual level. So he could spend 19 PP on each power, and have access to 9th level powers... but still not all that great because of the PP loss, powers known loss, and mantle access loss.
Tempest Stormwind
05-19-07, 01:30 PM Never take the metamind.

Exception 1: you are making your cohort and you are drunk
Exception 2: you are a nomad from a race that doesn't sleep with access to Complete Psionic who never wants to use swift or immediate powers

Unless one or both of these are true, AND you are starting at least level 15, you should NEVER consider the metamind.

Let me demonstrate why that "and" is required. Look at how badly they suck even after they level up all the way to metamind 9.

Kalashtar psion 5 / metamind 9, Int 15 (Base) +3 (level) +4 (headband) = 22, two flaws, all his feats (9) spent on Psionic Talent.
72 base power points
+ (6*.5*9 = ) 18 bonus power points
+ 54 (9 psionic talents)
+ 33 (effective power points from Free Manifesting)
+ 14 (Racial bonus power points
= 191 power points, ML 9, complete build lockdown, gear required.

ANYRACE Psion 14, Int 15+3(level) = 18, no equipment, no flaws, no feats spent.
ML 14 = 170 base power points
+ (4*.5*14 = ) 28 bonus power points
= 198 power points, ML 14, complete build freedom, equipmentless.

Now you see why you never want to use the metamind for stamina?

The only reason number 2 is a suggested exception is because Temporal Reiteration from Complete Psionic can make Font of Power last indefinitely at the cost of your standard action from here till Doomsday. Even then, at lower MLs, you'll be completely ineffective during that time even with all your buffs up.
JulesCARV
05-19-07, 01:41 PM Well, if you're a high-level thrallherd, or just have the leadership feat, and you're in a psionics-heavy party (i.e., you have a psychic warrior, psionic rogue, psion, etc) maybe you could have a nomad/metamind (or ardent/metamind) with temporal reiteration and bestow power. Pretty much useless in combat, but serves as a battery for the rest of the party, allowing them to blow their PP on any given encounter. It's possible that the increase in effectiveness of the rest of the party makes up for the mediocrity of the metamind. It wouldn't be a fun role to play, though, which is why I recommend it as a thrall or cohort :).
Nom
05-20-07, 01:09 AM It's the "exponential spellcaster capacity" problem rearing it's ugly head again.

I've been seriously toying with the idea of granting all psions a flat 10 + Int mod pp per level. This would mean that a psion of any level could manifest 10 + Int maximum strength powers per day, rather than the current silliness where a level 1 psion gets 2 + Int/2 relatively weak powers while a 20th level psion gets 17 + Int/2 extremely powerful powers (and extrapolate in between). At lot of the magic vs melee balance problem is not just the scaling increase in spell power but the fact that spellcasters go from chronically resource poor to very resource rich.

One could apply a similar system to spellcasters by granting 10 levels worth of spell slots per 2 levels (1,3,5,...), though this doesn't work as well because of the free power scaling by caster level.
hovnarr
05-20-07, 06:54 AM Never take the metamind.

Seconded.
Metafictional
05-20-07, 10:05 AM When I first saw the Metamind, I actually said "woah, how cool! I love this concept!"

Massive amounts of PP, but lower manifester level. Well I could handle that, I thought.

It was eventually pointed out to me that inability to augment sucks, and of course, how much PP I'd be losing.

Is there any way to fix the Class, or make one that does what the Metamind claims, but for some godawful reason, fails to do?
Suldarr'essalar
05-20-07, 11:13 AM I did a while ago, but i cannot find it on the forum or in the archive.

basicly it had: poor BAB (1/2) fort and ref save, good will.
gain ML at each elvel sxcept 1st, 5th, and 9th, gained:
1. improved ability score +2, psi-like ability 1
2. free manifesting 1
3. psi-like ability 2
4. free manifesting 2
5. improved ability score +4
6. free manifesting 3
7. psi-like ability 3
8. free manifesting 4
9. improved ability score +6
10. free manifesting 5

free manifestnig: one power /class level per day you know manifested for free and augmented to class level. You may pay power points from your reserve to further augment the power, but the total number of pp cannot exceed ML. The number in the table indicates the maximum power level, you can use with this ability.
psi-like ability - gain a psi-like ability to manifest 1 power from the list of 1st level powers you know with ML = class level.
At 3rd level gain another psi-like from 1st or second level, and at 7th level another one from 1st, 2nd or 3rd level. Use this abilities total up to class level times per day (any combination of those 3 psi-like abilities total up to class level).
improved ability score - add this number to your ability score for purpose of bonus power points from high stat.

It produced more power points (total) than psion of equal level. Also it was a good choice for spectral savant, thanks to psi-like abilities, and free manifesting (of for example larval flyers).
awaken_D_M_golem
05-20-07, 03:07 PM ... you are drunk
Oh, that explains a few of my favorite things
{ insert barfing smiley face }

Metamind is a good combo with an Adept, a Fighter, a DivineMind, and an Artificer 1/Commoner 19. Seriously.

If you don't mind outragous trickination and interpreting the text as broadly as possible and PHB2 retraining And rebuilding,
well, it's over the top and it still doesn't work vs. something boring like Psion 12+ , yawn.

OTOH, reserve feats give magic it's own version of recharging, so now psionic recharge is "shady" but O.K.
Metamind is just the most efficient of the recharge set-ups. And you have to suck, before you get it.
Zylo_Drizzt
05-21-07, 01:55 PM (rants about the many reasons why not to let him):rant:

but if you want to make it not suck give him full ML and let the free manifestations let him augment his powers for free too. Obviosly it is limited to ML. or hyperconcious thing whatever you can do what you want but you would be a fool to not do what I suggested.;)
Lina_Inverse
05-21-07, 02:06 PM It's the "exponential spellcaster capacity" problem rearing it's ugly head again.

+2CR=x2 power. Linear growth does not worka in D&Da.
SlanderPanic
05-21-07, 03:08 PM Compress it into a five-level class with 3/5 manifesting and it sucks considerably less.

Let's expand on the idea. He's a compressed metamind with 3/5 manifesting. Were I to go with 4/5 manifesting, I'd make the lost ML come at first level, to make the character sacrifice something to enter the class. Otherwise, a psion would be stupid not to take it for a few levels, given the class' ridiculously easy entry requirements*.

1st: Free manifesting 1st, 3/day; Cognizance psicrystal 5 points
2nd: Free manifesting 2nd, 3/day; Cognizance psicrystal 7 points, +1 level of existing manifesting class
3rd: Free manifesting 3rd, 1/day; Cognizance psicrystal 9 points, +1 level of existing manifesting class
4th: Free manifesting 4th, 1/day; Cognizance psicrystal 11 points, +1 level of existing manifesting class
5th: Free manifesting 5th, 1/day; Font of power

*About those entry requirements, if we want, we can make them steeper, especially if we're upping the compressed metamind's ML progression to 4/5 or full and aiming it for high-level characters, making it an "arch-psion" of sorts. Toss in some higher skill requirements, a few metapsionic feats and Improved Psicrystal, higher ML requirement, and training by another metamind and we're done.

I also experimented with plugging the wilder class' dead levels with metamind abilities, but I don't think it'd work all that well mechanically.
Nom
05-21-07, 08:15 PM +2CR=x2 power. Linear growth does not worka in D&Da.Please think about what you are saying. For example, simply doubling the number of hit points on one side (and leaving everything else constant) will generally turn a close battle into an easy one. The fighter has a linear advancement, but simply adding two fighter levels is a notable (and provably non-linear) power increase in a physical combat environment.

Spellcasters double-dip, in many of their spells scale linearly in power but at the same time they get more and better spells. Psionics doesn't get the same free power scaling, but they get super-linear power points instead resulting in the same problem.

I've got a Regdar's thread on exactly this topic.

The most obvious fix is to rework the system so that all primary casters get the same number of "tier 1" spells per day, though the power of such spells will vary by level. This neatly solves the problem of low-level primary casters having too few spells to contribute more than once or twice while high-level primary casters have many many good spells.

The psionics augment system means that psionics is actually easier to fix in this regard than regular spellcasting. If we combine linear pp with a rule that maximum augment is based on CL, not class level, then a multiclass caster can get a few actually effective powers per day. They'll have "weaker" spells and can fully power their powers fewer times, but at least they'll have tier 1 access.
Orion Polaris
06-11-07, 07:44 PM Would just giving it 10/10 or 9/10 or 8/10 manifesting make the prestige class overpowering, or would it be fine? I really like the idea of the class but it's just so weak as is.
Tempest Stormwind
06-11-07, 08:20 PM Giving anything 10/10 casting or manifesting is making it too good. Case in point: Anarchic initiate or any of a hojillion mage/priest PrCs.

Use the Hyperconscious metamind. It literally knows fewer powers but has a boatload more power points through the use of power sequestation. (I'm not entirely sure it deserved three ML losses, though. Maybe two or perhaps even one, as I haven't built higher-level ones myself.)
Lycanthromancer
06-11-07, 08:25 PM Giving anything 10/10 casting or manifesting is making it too good. Case in point: Anarchic initiate or any of a hojillion mage/priest PrCs.
Not quite. The archpsion is pretty decent, and gives full manifesting, but it loses power points for every ability it gets.

You can have balance without lost manifester levels, but you should give something up. Archpsion = yes, Metamind = HELL NO.
AntiDjinn
06-11-07, 09:21 PM Full caster manifester progression is balanced only if the PrC has a built-in limitation that will continue to hinder the character or if something is given up. The Archmage pays permanent spell slots for his abilities, so I don't have a problem with his full caster progression. The Alienist is basically kill-on-sight for most same beings so he can also have full progression and I won't loose any sleep over it.

On the other hand, full manifester progression for the Anarchic Initiate seems overpowered given that you really loose nothing by taking levels in it. Overchannel is a popular feat for psions, you will probably have 8 ranks in Knowledge (psionics) anyway, and while 8 ranks in Knowledge (planes) may not be popular it can be useful. No-loss entry requirements, full ML progression, and a set of useful class specials means psions can take the class just to laugh at the wilders who wish they could qualify.

The XPH Metamind might have been an OK Prc with loss of 2 manifester levels, but 5 is absurd. I wonder why anyone ever thought a primary manifesting PrC with half its ML's cut out was a good idea. For that kind of loss it should have a good BAB progression and good fortitude saves so at least the Psychic Warrior might consider it.
Lycanthromancer
06-11-07, 09:37 PM The XPH Metamind might have been an OK Prc with loss of 2 manifester levels, but 5 is absurd. I wonder why anyone ever thought a primary manifesting PrC with half its ML's cut out was a good idea. For that kind of loss it should have a good BAB progression and good fortitude saves so at least the Psychic Warrior might consider it.Not to mention 4 or 6 skill points per level.

Yes, it's that bad.
Batshido
06-11-07, 09:43 PM Not to mention 4 or 6 skill points per level.

Yes, it's that bad.
I kind like what they did with it in Hyperconcious (which my girlfriend just got me for my birthday, because she rocks :) Expect lots of questions, guys.).

The ability to permanently "unlearn" powers to gain powerpoints is interesting. I'm not sure if it's terribly powerful, yet, but it is interesting.
SlanderPanic
06-11-07, 10:05 PM Just talk your DMs into letting you use the five-level Metamind I scraped up earlier in this well-necromanced thread. No muss, no fuss, no new-and-confusing mechanics.
crizhII
06-12-07, 04:26 AM Just to chip in pointlessly.

Metamind is an amazing class to take once you turn Epic.

It doesn't cost you any PP, you can make up most of the ML with Practiced Manifestor and once per day you can go Supernova.

Or you can go mental with Bestow Power and Temporal Reiteration or Temporal Acceleration.

Or, or.... :D
Lycanthromancer
06-12-07, 02:32 PM Point.

That may just be what I'll be doing once I hit epic with my "The Small Child is with Me" character.
Noodles2375
06-12-07, 11:25 PM At the risk of adding an arbitrarily complicated idea:

A couple buddies and I once kicked around some mods to the metamind to make it playable. Our initial reaction was "Don't waste the time". But if you consider

a) keeping all current class abilities
b) swapping out 5/10 manifesting with
i) 10/10 pp increases (treat each level as a level of psion for PP calc's and ML increases
ii) 5/10 power knowledge increases (treat each other level as an additional level of psion with respect to powers known)

Now at least you have something that looks vaguely like the description. You take the class to get PP's, cognizance psi-crystal, and some free manifesting and in turn you sacrifice higher level powers. I'm still not sure anyone would take it....but at least it's internally consistent with the class description!
AntiDjinn
06-12-07, 11:26 PM Once you get into epic levels (where the d20 mechanics start to suffer anyway) the loss of a few manifester levels is felt less. Being level 20 and missing 5 manifester levels is huge; fully 25% of your total. Being level 35 and missing 5 ML is only a 14% hit. Eventually you do get 9th level powers and you deficit starts to matter less against the PR of foes of comparable level, but you still have to survive and be capable of earning XP to every see that part of the power curve.
SlanderPanic
06-13-07, 10:16 AM That's a pretty good idea, Noodles. It keeps things simple and still makes you trade something off for increased endurance. I could see an erudite/Noodles Metamind taking on a role as the ultimate utility manifester.
The_Ditto
06-13-07, 11:45 AM couple years back - when it first came out - I re-did as a 5 level PRC ... no ML ... but made sure it really kicked back the power points ...

I gotta dig that thing up again ... :cool:

It worked well as a "dip" PrC ... it was fairly easy to get into .. but it wasn't at all "efficient" if you just took all 5 levels ASAP ... it worked better to wait for a few levels then go .. "Hey, I want more PP!!!" ... <dip> ... "ahh, that's better!" :D

It was just another idea/angle on it ...
The_Ditto
06-14-07, 09:10 AM Ok, finally dug it up ... as I mentioned, I did this sucker a few years back when XPH first hit the shelves ... haven't really posted it anywhere before .. been doing minor tweaks and such ... :D

here (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/prcenduringmind)

*shrug* .. I know, a million other variations out there ... :P
awaken_D_M_golem
06-14-07, 07:11 PM Psiotheurgist to the Rescue !!!

Wiz 1 with Precocious Apprentice and Practised Spellcaster
Ardent 1+2 , take Psiotheurgist : Psychometabolism
- Retrain useless armor feat into Psicrystal Affinity / or take it at 6th level.
Cerebremancer 1+2
Metamind 1 to 10

This way, the Psiotheurgist feat gets 5ML back for the 5ML lost to metamind.
And Cleric 1 can sub for Wiz 1, just with different cheese.

Belong to a guild, take Favored Feat from Cityscape, and the Feat that gets you a bonus rank, gets you into Metamind at 4th level instead. Then you qualify without needing 2 feats and a guild the very next level, so Psy-ref or retrain away. Hmm ...
Cleric 1 w/ Practised Spellcaster, Ardent 2 as above, Erudite 1 for PsiCry and feat --> Metamind.
Metamind advances Ardent of course.

Psiotheurgist fixes everything.
Enchanter_Tom
06-15-07, 01:34 AM Anarchic initiate is overpowered?
Terraneaux
06-15-07, 03:35 AM Unless you are planning on combining Temporal Reiteration with Font of Power, don't take Metamind.
axenome
06-16-07, 04:29 PM Thought: Expanded Knowledge(Schism) for a Nomad. :doh:
Schism + Font of Power + Temporal Reiteration= free manifestation all day long with your main mind by level 20. Who cares if you are limited to level 15? Take Overchannel, Talented, kill as needed. End of Story. :drool:

:twocents:
Noodles2375
06-17-07, 10:19 AM That's a pretty good idea, Noodles. It keeps things simple and still makes you trade something off for increased endurance. I could see an erudite/Noodles Metamind taking on a role as the ultimate utility manifester.

You know if funny you should mention that, but when we were done thinking about that thats exactly the conclusion me and my buddies came to also. The loss of straight powers known sucks, and you have to burn a chunk of exp to make up for it, but I would hardly call it insurmountable!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Moosh Nailo 05-19-07, 01:15 PM	Dm likes to run campaigns that give characters little to no rest, throwing challenge after challenge at us. One of the other players feels like playing a psion, and was wondering if advancing as a Metamind would be worth it. He'd be our only caster-type, so none of us are very keen about him losing out on 5 manifesting levels, but the free manifestations are alluring. Any advice? Or are there any other (possibly homebrew) PrCs that would be useful?
glacialcat 05-19-07, 01:23 PM	Tempest Stormwind has a saying about the Metamind that I like: Metaminds suck, but once per day they can suck for free for a minute. In general, no, Metamind is not worth it. The big thing about Metamind is supposed to be that they have more PP but lower level powers... but because they loose so many manifestor levels, they end up with much less PP, lower level powers, and can't augment as much as a regular psion could. But they get Font of Power, which is a nice capstone ability... but not worth going through the rest of the horrible class. If you can get the DM to allow it, consider the Hyperconscious variant Metamind. It only looses 3 manifestor levels, so it might actually be worth it. One of the easier ways to see how much Metamind sucks is to look at Font of Power. If you don't have a way to boost your manifestor level, at Lv.20 you'll be able to spend 15 PP on any one power. Since Font of Power can be used for only one minute, that equals to a max of 150 PP. A Lv.10 Psion/15 Metamind would have 195 base PP. A Lv.20 Psion would have 343 PP. 195 + 150 = 345. You just lost 5 manifestor levels to have 2 more PP if you use a 15 PP power every round during Font of Power, and thats not counting the fact that a Lv.20 manifestor would receive more bonus PP from a high ability score than a Lv.15 one. An Ardent with Practiced Manifestor can make up for some of these issues, because Ardents select their powers known based on manifestor level, not actual level. So he could spend 19 PP on each power, and have access to 9th level powers... but still not all that great because of the PP loss, powers known loss, and mantle access loss.
Tempest Stormwind 05-19-07, 01:30 PM	Never take the metamind. Exception 1: you are making your cohort and you are drunk Exception 2: you are a nomad from a race that doesn't sleep with access to Complete Psionic who never wants to use swift or immediate powers Unless one or both of these are true, AND you are starting at least level 15, you should NEVER consider the metamind. Let me demonstrate why that "and" is required. Look at how badly they suck even after they level up all the way to metamind 9. Kalashtar psion 5 / metamind 9, Int 15 (Base) +3 (level) +4 (headband) = 22, two flaws, all his feats (9) spent on Psionic Talent. 72 base power points + (6.59 = ) 18 bonus power points + 54 (9 psionic talents) + 33 (effective power points from Free Manifesting) + 14 (Racial bonus power points = 191 power points, ML 9, complete build lockdown, gear required. ANYRACE Psion 14, Int 15+3(level) = 18, no equipment, no flaws, no feats spent. ML 14 = 170 base power points + (4.514 = ) 28 bonus power points = 198 power points, ML 14, complete build freedom, equipmentless. Now you see why you never want to use the metamind for stamina? The only reason number 2 is a suggested exception is because Temporal Reiteration from Complete Psionic can make Font of Power last indefinitely at the cost of your standard action from here till Doomsday. Even then, at lower MLs, you'll be completely ineffective during that time even with all your buffs up.
JulesCARV 05-19-07, 01:41 PM	Well, if you're a high-level thrallherd, or just have the leadership feat, and you're in a psionics-heavy party (i.e., you have a psychic warrior, psionic rogue, psion, etc) maybe you could have a nomad/metamind (or ardent/metamind) with temporal reiteration and bestow power. Pretty much useless in combat, but serves as a battery for the rest of the party, allowing them to blow their PP on any given encounter. It's possible that the increase in effectiveness of the rest of the party makes up for the mediocrity of the metamind. It wouldn't be a fun role to play, though, which is why I recommend it as a thrall or cohort :).
Nom 05-20-07, 01:09 AM	It's the "exponential spellcaster capacity" problem rearing it's ugly head again. I've been seriously toying with the idea of granting all psions a flat 10 + Int mod pp per level. This would mean that a psion of any level could manifest 10 + Int maximum strength powers per day, rather than the current silliness where a level 1 psion gets 2 + Int/2 relatively weak powers while a 20th level psion gets 17 + Int/2 extremely powerful powers (and extrapolate in between). At lot of the magic vs melee balance problem is not just the scaling increase in spell power but the fact that spellcasters go from chronically resource poor to very resource rich. One could apply a similar system to spellcasters by granting 10 levels worth of spell slots per 2 levels (1,3,5,...), though this doesn't work as well because of the free power scaling by caster level.
hovnarr 05-20-07, 06:54 AM	Never take the metamind. Seconded.
Metafictional 05-20-07, 10:05 AM	When I first saw the Metamind, I actually said "woah, how cool! I love this concept!" Massive amounts of PP, but lower manifester level. Well I could handle that, I thought. It was eventually pointed out to me that inability to augment sucks, and of course, how much PP I'd be losing. Is there any way to fix the Class, or make one that does what the Metamind claims, but for some godawful reason, fails to do?
Suldarr'essalar 05-20-07, 11:13 AM	I did a while ago, but i cannot find it on the forum or in the archive. basicly it had: poor BAB (1/2) fort and ref save, good will. gain ML at each elvel sxcept 1st, 5th, and 9th, gained: 1. improved ability score +2, psi-like ability 1 2. free manifesting 1 3. psi-like ability 2 4. free manifesting 2 5. improved ability score +4 6. free manifesting 3 7. psi-like ability 3 8. free manifesting 4 9. improved ability score +6 10. free manifesting 5 free manifestnig: one power /class level per day you know manifested for free and augmented to class level. You may pay power points from your reserve to further augment the power, but the total number of pp cannot exceed ML. The number in the table indicates the maximum power level, you can use with this ability. psi-like ability - gain a psi-like ability to manifest 1 power from the list of 1st level powers you know with ML = class level. At 3rd level gain another psi-like from 1st or second level, and at 7th level another one from 1st, 2nd or 3rd level. Use this abilities total up to class level times per day (any combination of those 3 psi-like abilities total up to class level). improved ability score - add this number to your ability score for purpose of bonus power points from high stat. It produced more power points (total) than psion of equal level. Also it was a good choice for spectral savant, thanks to psi-like abilities, and free manifesting (of for example larval flyers).
awaken_D_M_golem 05-20-07, 03:07 PM	... you are drunk Oh, that explains a few of my favorite things { insert barfing smiley face } Metamind is a good combo with an Adept, a Fighter, a DivineMind, and an Artificer 1/Commoner 19. Seriously. If you don't mind outragous trickination and interpreting the text as broadly as possible and PHB2 retraining And rebuilding, well, it's over the top and it still doesn't work vs. something boring like Psion 12+ , yawn. OTOH, reserve feats give magic it's own version of recharging, so now psionic recharge is "shady" but O.K. Metamind is just the most efficient of the recharge set-ups. And you have to suck, before you get it.
Zylo_Drizzt 05-21-07, 01:55 PM	(rants about the many reasons why not to let him):rant: but if you want to make it not suck give him full ML and let the free manifestations let him augment his powers for free too. Obviosly it is limited to ML. or hyperconcious thing whatever you can do what you want but you would be a fool to not do what I suggested.;)
Lina_Inverse 05-21-07, 02:06 PM	It's the "exponential spellcaster capacity" problem rearing it's ugly head again. +2CR=x2 power. Linear growth does not worka in D&Da.
SlanderPanic 05-21-07, 03:08 PM	Compress it into a five-level class with 3/5 manifesting and it sucks considerably less. Let's expand on the idea. He's a compressed metamind with 3/5 manifesting. Were I to go with 4/5 manifesting, I'd make the lost ML come at first level, to make the character sacrifice something to enter the class. Otherwise, a psion would be stupid not to take it for a few levels, given the class' ridiculously easy entry requirements. 1st: Free manifesting 1st, 3/day; Cognizance psicrystal 5 points 2nd: Free manifesting 2nd, 3/day; Cognizance psicrystal 7 points, +1 level of existing manifesting class 3rd: Free manifesting 3rd, 1/day; Cognizance psicrystal 9 points, +1 level of existing manifesting class 4th: Free manifesting 4th, 1/day; Cognizance psicrystal 11 points, +1 level of existing manifesting class 5th: Free manifesting 5th, 1/day; Font of power About those entry requirements, if we want, we can make them steeper, especially if we're upping the compressed metamind's ML progression to 4/5 or full and aiming it for high-level characters, making it an "arch-psion" of sorts. Toss in some higher skill requirements, a few metapsionic feats and Improved Psicrystal, higher ML requirement, and training by another metamind and we're done. I also experimented with plugging the wilder class' dead levels with metamind abilities, but I don't think it'd work all that well mechanically.
Nom 05-21-07, 08:15 PM	+2CR=x2 power. Linear growth does not worka in D&Da.Please think about what you are saying. For example, simply doubling the number of hit points on one side (and leaving everything else constant) will generally turn a close battle into an easy one. The fighter has a linear advancement, but simply adding two fighter levels is a notable (and provably non-linear) power increase in a physical combat environment. Spellcasters double-dip, in many of their spells scale linearly in power but at the same time they get more and better spells. Psionics doesn't get the same free power scaling, but they get super-linear power points instead resulting in the same problem. I've got a Regdar's thread on exactly this topic. The most obvious fix is to rework the system so that all primary casters get the same number of "tier 1" spells per day, though the power of such spells will vary by level. This neatly solves the problem of low-level primary casters having too few spells to contribute more than once or twice while high-level primary casters have many many good spells. The psionics augment system means that psionics is actually easier to fix in this regard than regular spellcasting. If we combine linear pp with a rule that maximum augment is based on CL, not class level, then a multiclass caster can get a few actually effective powers per day. They'll have "weaker" spells and can fully power their powers fewer times, but at least they'll have tier 1 access.
Orion Polaris 06-11-07, 07:44 PM	Would just giving it 10/10 or 9/10 or 8/10 manifesting make the prestige class overpowering, or would it be fine? I really like the idea of the class but it's just so weak as is.
Tempest Stormwind 06-11-07, 08:20 PM	Giving anything 10/10 casting or manifesting is making it too good. Case in point: Anarchic initiate or any of a hojillion mage/priest PrCs. Use the Hyperconscious metamind. It literally knows fewer powers but has a boatload more power points through the use of power sequestation. (I'm not entirely sure it deserved three ML losses, though. Maybe two or perhaps even one, as I haven't built higher-level ones myself.)
Lycanthromancer 06-11-07, 08:25 PM	Giving anything 10/10 casting or manifesting is making it too good. Case in point: Anarchic initiate or any of a hojillion mage/priest PrCs. Not quite. The archpsion is pretty decent, and gives full manifesting, but it loses power points for every ability it gets. You can have balance without lost manifester levels, but you should give something up. Archpsion = yes, Metamind = HELL NO.
AntiDjinn 06-11-07, 09:21 PM	Full caster manifester progression is balanced only if the PrC has a built-in limitation that will continue to hinder the character or if something is given up. The Archmage pays permanent spell slots for his abilities, so I don't have a problem with his full caster progression. The Alienist is basically kill-on-sight for most same beings so he can also have full progression and I won't loose any sleep over it. On the other hand, full manifester progression for the Anarchic Initiate seems overpowered given that you really loose nothing by taking levels in it. Overchannel is a popular feat for psions, you will probably have 8 ranks in Knowledge (psionics) anyway, and while 8 ranks in Knowledge (planes) may not be popular it can be useful. No-loss entry requirements, full ML progression, and a set of useful class specials means psions can take the class just to laugh at the wilders who wish they could qualify. The XPH Metamind might have been an OK Prc with loss of 2 manifester levels, but 5 is absurd. I wonder why anyone ever thought a primary manifesting PrC with half its ML's cut out was a good idea. For that kind of loss it should have a good BAB progression and good fortitude saves so at least the Psychic Warrior might consider it.
Lycanthromancer 06-11-07, 09:37 PM	The XPH Metamind might have been an OK Prc with loss of 2 manifester levels, but 5 is absurd. I wonder why anyone ever thought a primary manifesting PrC with half its ML's cut out was a good idea. For that kind of loss it should have a good BAB progression and good fortitude saves so at least the Psychic Warrior might consider it.Not to mention 4 or 6 skill points per level. Yes, it's that bad.
Batshido 06-11-07, 09:43 PM	Not to mention 4 or 6 skill points per level. Yes, it's that bad. I kind like what they did with it in Hyperconcious (which my girlfriend just got me for my birthday, because she rocks :) Expect lots of questions, guys.). The ability to permanently "unlearn" powers to gain powerpoints is interesting. I'm not sure if it's terribly powerful, yet, but it is interesting.
SlanderPanic 06-11-07, 10:05 PM	Just talk your DMs into letting you use the five-level Metamind I scraped up earlier in this well-necromanced thread. No muss, no fuss, no new-and-confusing mechanics.
crizhII 06-12-07, 04:26 AM	Just to chip in pointlessly. Metamind is an amazing class to take once you turn Epic. It doesn't cost you any PP, you can make up most of the ML with Practiced Manifestor and once per day you can go Supernova. Or you can go mental with Bestow Power and Temporal Reiteration or Temporal Acceleration. Or, or.... :D
Lycanthromancer 06-12-07, 02:32 PM	Point. That may just be what I'll be doing once I hit epic with my "The Small Child is with Me" character.
Noodles2375 06-12-07, 11:25 PM	At the risk of adding an arbitrarily complicated idea: A couple buddies and I once kicked around some mods to the metamind to make it playable. Our initial reaction was "Don't waste the time". But if you consider a) keeping all current class abilities b) swapping out 5/10 manifesting with i) 10/10 pp increases (treat each level as a level of psion for PP calc's and ML increases ii) 5/10 power knowledge increases (treat each other level as an additional level of psion with respect to powers known) Now at least you have something that looks vaguely like the description. You take the class to get PP's, cognizance psi-crystal, and some free manifesting and in turn you sacrifice higher level powers. I'm still not sure anyone would take it....but at least it's internally consistent with the class description!
AntiDjinn 06-12-07, 11:26 PM	Once you get into epic levels (where the d20 mechanics start to suffer anyway) the loss of a few manifester levels is felt less. Being level 20 and missing 5 manifester levels is huge; fully 25% of your total. Being level 35 and missing 5 ML is only a 14% hit. Eventually you do get 9th level powers and you deficit starts to matter less against the PR of foes of comparable level, but you still have to survive and be capable of earning XP to every see that part of the power curve.
SlanderPanic 06-13-07, 10:16 AM	That's a pretty good idea, Noodles. It keeps things simple and still makes you trade something off for increased endurance. I could see an erudite/Noodles Metamind taking on a role as the ultimate utility manifester.
The_Ditto 06-13-07, 11:45 AM	couple years back - when it first came out - I re-did as a 5 level PRC ... no ML ... but made sure it really kicked back the power points ... I gotta dig that thing up again ... :cool: It worked well as a "dip" PrC ... it was fairly easy to get into .. but it wasn't at all "efficient" if you just took all 5 levels ASAP ... it worked better to wait for a few levels then go .. "Hey, I want more PP!!!" ... <dip> ... "ahh, that's better!" :D It was just another idea/angle on it ...
The_Ditto 06-14-07, 09:10 AM	Ok, finally dug it up ... as I mentioned, I did this sucker a few years back when XPH first hit the shelves ... haven't really posted it anywhere before .. been doing minor tweaks and such ... :D here (http://dot.ditto.googlepages.com/prcenduringmind) shrug .. I know, a million other variations out there ... :P
awaken_D_M_golem 06-14-07, 07:11 PM	Psiotheurgist to the Rescue !!! Wiz 1 with Precocious Apprentice and Practised Spellcaster Ardent 1+2 , take Psiotheurgist : Psychometabolism - Retrain useless armor feat into Psicrystal Affinity / or take it at 6th level. Cerebremancer 1+2 Metamind 1 to 10 This way, the Psiotheurgist feat gets 5ML back for the 5ML lost to metamind. And Cleric 1 can sub for Wiz 1, just with different cheese. Belong to a guild, take Favored Feat from Cityscape, and the Feat that gets you a bonus rank, gets you into Metamind at 4th level instead. Then you qualify without needing 2 feats and a guild the very next level, so Psy-ref or retrain away. Hmm ... Cleric 1 w/ Practised Spellcaster, Ardent 2 as above, Erudite 1 for PsiCry and feat --> Metamind. Metamind advances Ardent of course. Psiotheurgist fixes everything.
Enchanter_Tom 06-15-07, 01:34 AM	Anarchic initiate is overpowered?
Terraneaux 06-15-07, 03:35 AM	Unless you are planning on combining Temporal Reiteration with Font of Power, don't take Metamind.
axenome 06-16-07, 04:29 PM	Thought: Expanded Knowledge(Schism) for a Nomad. :doh: Schism + Font of Power + Temporal Reiteration= free manifestation all day long with your main mind by level 20. Who cares if you are limited to level 15? Take Overchannel, Talented, kill as needed. End of Story. :drool: :twocents:
Noodles2375 06-17-07, 10:19 AM	That's a pretty good idea, Noodles. It keeps things simple and still makes you trade something off for increased endurance. I could see an erudite/Noodles Metamind taking on a role as the ultimate utility manifester. You know if funny you should mention that, but when we were done thinking about that thats exactly the conclusion me and my buddies came to also. The loss of straight powers known sucks, and you have to burn a chunk of exp to make up for it, but I would hardly call it insurmountable!