Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adamaro23 09-10-07, 03:57 PM	In Metamorphisis it says: A with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. So how do you become a 8-headed hydra and make all the extra attacks?
kyeudo 09-10-07, 04:08 PM	You gain 8 natural weapons. By definition, you can attack with all of them. You don't get to wield 8 swords and attack with all of them is all that that line means, even if you somehow grew 8 arms.
PhaedrusXY 09-10-07, 04:24 PM	This has been debated, and there are good arguments on both sides. However, WotC has explicitly said that you get all the natural attacks, at least with Polymorph/Alter Self. The example characters in the RotG article(s?) also include this.
Adamaro23 09-10-07, 04:53 PM	okay, another thing: are there any monsters you are capable of becoming through Metamorphisis that has Immunity to magic?
Lycanthromancer 09-10-07, 05:11 PM	Certainly not as special attacks. Special qualities, yes (see golems), but you don't gain those with metamorphosis.
hovnarr 09-10-07, 05:16 PM	You can come pretty close though if you choose an object form. Objects are pretty much immune to anything that requires a fort or will save, and you have hardness 15 against everything else. For low level defensive forms, I also recommend Pixie with Metamorphic Transfer grabbing Greater Invisibility. If you're invisible and have 60' flying (good), you're pretty much immune to most stuff at that level. TK sphere + burrowing power is darn good at higher levels.
chicgeek 09-10-07, 06:45 PM	You can also Metamorph into a Blink Dog (and Metamorphic Transer the Blink ability) which gives your attacker a 50% miss chance (including magic), unless they can see ethereal creatures. And you'd have to get a GM ruling about manifesting powers as an ethereal creature, because typically casting magic has a 20% chance of being cast on the ethereal plane instead of the material plane.
carnivore 09-10-07, 06:46 PM	In Metamorphisis it says: A with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. So how do you become a 8-headed hydra and make all the extra attacks? notice the Normal Attacks: Attack: 8 bites +11 melee (1d10+4) a single Attack = 8 bites..... Full Attack = 8 bites also :D
Adamaro23 09-11-07, 02:45 AM	notice the Normal Attacks: a single Attack = 8 bites..... Full Attack = 8 bites also :D Alright, my DM decided to not believe that. So when I turned into a 12-headed Hydra, I was able to make 1 bite attack per round... Here's how the game went: Hafling Rogue 20 Goliath Psychic Warrior 14 Orc Were-Tiger Barbarian ? Pixie Psion (egoist) 16 -(me) 1. I turned my Psicrystal into a Sun Giant (i wanted to stay invisible) 2. I used Fission to make my little clone, he cast temporal acceleration. -. Me and clone both make 2 energy walls in circles around the rogue. -. I do a Metamorphisis into a 12-headed hydra, clone does same. 3. All three of us attack one time each. 4. I undo my psicrystal and myself from metamorphisis, I manifest Crystal Shard. (shard absorbed) 5. all three of us manifest crystalshard for 1 pp. 6. same as last. 7. same as last (absorbing gone) 8. clone and I manifest Swarm of Crystals, all augmented to max. (16d4, 14d4) 9. Psicrystal getting beat up bad, he returns to normal, and back in my pocket. Me and clone both do Swarm of crystals augmented to max. 10. I die, I now play as Fission clone. 11. Other combatants entered, I Time Hop myself for 16 rounds waiting for other combatants to kill each other so I only have to face one. 12. ... 13 .... 14. ... 15. ... 16. ... Rogue and Golaith Psychic Warrior Kill each other at same time (scroll of fireball) 26. I return as the sole-survivor of the Arena Battle.
kyeudo 09-11-07, 11:31 AM	Nice trick with the Time Hop.
ArcTan 09-12-07, 06:50 PM	In Metamorphisis it says: A with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. So how do you become a 8-headed hydra and make all the extra attacks? You don't. You can never get more attacks than you have in your normal form. Any other reading of the rule is specious and ultimately makes the rule meaningless.
ArcTan 09-12-07, 06:56 PM	This has been debated, and there are good arguments on both sides. However, WotC has explicitly said that you get all the natural attacks, at least with Polymorph/Alter Self. The example characters in the RotG article(s?) also include this. "WotC" didn't say it in a source that actually matters, i.e. a printed book or errata. Skip Williams says so in the RotG articles, but Skip Williams is notorious for simply ignoring rules in RotG or having such bad interpretations you wonder if he's ever even read them. The same RotG article is the one where he claims that polymorph auto-resizes all your equipment for you, in direct contradiction to the polymorph spell description, the description in magic items of how magic item size works, and the existence of the sizing enchantment in Complete Adventurer. We need to remember that this is the same Skip Williams who recently totally forgot about the rule about Dwarves and heavy armor, and the Skip Williams who once said rules for Ride checks "didn't exist" and made up new ones (despite the fact that Ride is actually a pretty comprehensively detailed skill in the PHB). In this case, his argument for what this line in alter self means makes no sense. He basically says that it's a junk line -- it's a line that means nothing at all, because it only bans things that would be impossible anyway. (An ordinary Marilith character could not, for instance, create a gigantic super-crossbow built for four-armed characters and fire it, so why should a PC be able to?) Which is dumb. Why would the original writers of that spell (who did not include Skip Williams) put that line there if that's all they meant? It'd be unnecessary complexity. By contrast, there *is* a very simple and obvious way to read the line -- read it for *what it actually says*. It says you don't get more attacks for polymorphing. You don't get more attacks for polymorphing. Turn into an 8-Headed Hydra, fine, you still only get 1 attack per round. Not only does this *make more sense* than Skip's tortured explanation in RotG, it's also much better for balance. Polymorph and metamorphosis are already crazy-broken, but at least most ways to break the effect require a little bit of reading, thought and planning. Figuring out that you can get 8 Sneak Attacks with an 8-Headed Hydra does not. Without the limit on multiple attacks, a four-year-old *child* could see that polymorph is horribly broken. I don't think that was the intention.
ArcTan 09-12-07, 06:59 PM	notice the Normal Attacks: a single Attack = 8 bites..... Full Attack = 8 bites also :D Anyone who doesn't see why "normal" in the context of a polymorph spell means normal for *you*, not normal for a Hydra, is being willfully stupid. Why would an 8-Headed Hydra *ever* be able to make more attacks with its eight heads than is "normal" for a Hydra? It *is* a Hydra. Everything it does is, by definition, normal for a Hydra. For that matter, it's natural and normal for a Marilith to hold swords in all its hands and have multiple manufactured weapon attacks per round. There's no way you can claim that this isn't normal for a Marilith -- it's what the example MM Marilith does, after all. If "normal" means "normal for the monster" then it *doesn't* ban manufactured weapons. It doesn't, in fact, do anything at all.
The_Shaman 09-13-07, 11:01 AM	BTW, a metamorphed psionicist can still manifest powers, right?
Racinante 09-13-07, 11:12 AM	You don't. You can never get more attacks than you have in your normal form. Any other reading of the rule is specious and ultimately makes the rule meaningless. So your contention is that if you turn into a Tiger/Lion/Leopard etc, metamorphosis/polymorph gives you the special extraordinary attacks pounce and rake, however, the pounce does not allow you to rake (even though that is specifically added by the pounce special attack) because you do not have more than 2 attacks? So if you have one attack, you could (with a tiger) do one claw or pounce for one claw attack? My contention, would be that on a pounce you can attack with a claw and also 2 rakes (to stay within the spirit of not gaining more attacks than your normal form). Also, if a single attack (like a manticore) produces more than one attack roll and damage roll, do you contend that only one can be done, although the natural attack for the creature says something different? My contention is that the hydra (and possibly the tendriculos) is badly statted and that a single attack should be 1 bite. This solves the problem from both sides of the debate. Since these two are not statted that way, regardless of rules as intended, you still get the creatures single attack, which is all of the heads (for the hydra), a bite and two tendrils (for the tendriculos), and all 6 spikes (for the manticore).
Racinante 09-13-07, 11:14 AM	BTW, a metamorphed psionicist can still manifest powers, right? Yes, absolutely.
carnivore 09-13-07, 12:05 PM	So your contention is that if you turn into a Tiger/Lion/Leopard etc, metamorphosis/polymorph gives you the special extraordinary attacks pounce and rake, however, the pounce does not allow you to rake (even though that is specifically added by the pounce special attack) because you do not have more than 2 attacks? So if you have one attack, you could (with a tiger) do one claw or pounce for one claw attack? My contention, would be that on a pounce you can attack with a claw and also 2 rakes (to stay within the spirit of not gaining more attacks than your normal form). Also, if a single attack (like a manticore) produces more than one attack roll and damage roll, do you contend that only one can be done, although the natural attack for the creature says something different? My contention is that the hydra (and possibly the tendriculos) is badly statted and that a single attack should be 1 bite. This solves the problem from both sides of the debate. Since these two are not statted that way, regardless of rules as intended, you still get the creatures single attack, which is all of the heads (for the hydra), a bite and two tendrils (for the tendriculos), and all 6 spikes (for the manticore). thats what i mean... but i stated it badly :D