Post/Author/DateTime	Post
siegfried1 05-01-07, 01:50 PM	Hello, I am relatively new to psionics and the whole polymorph side of things. I have read an old articly about polymorphing but that hasnt clarified things really. If any of you have ideas for my following questions that would be great: Currently assume I have a level 10 human psion with CON 10, STR 10 and DEX 10, as such a BAB +5 (single attack). His max HP is 25, his current HP is 10. If I metamorph into a dire bear by overchannelling (to reach 12 HD) what happens? a) Do my number of attacks change in any way? The bear has 2 claws and one bite attack normally. I currently assume: no. b) Does my attack value change from +5 to something? I currently assume the bear's STR 31 gets me a +15 so I end up with a +20 attack. c) If I currently have inertial armor (+4) up, do I get a AC of 17+4 now, if the bear has AC 17 normally)? I assume: yes. d) If I attack with my new 2W4 claws do I get 2W4 +15 (for STR) now? I would assume yes, but am irritaed by teh fact that the standard dire bear only makes 2W4+10 with his same STR. e) Do my maximum HP change? With the bear's CON of 19 I would assume my max HP to go to 25+(10*+4). Temprary only. f) Do my current HP change? The metamorph heals like a nights rest, so I assume +10 HP plus the 10*+4 would be the answer. g) A dire bear has a HP adjustment of +51. Does that influence me anyway? I have no idea. :confused: If any of you have good comments or can direct me to any document or FAQ where all this is explained I would be grateful.
Bacris 05-01-07, 02:00 PM	a) Do my number of attacks change in any way? The bear has 2 claws and one bite attack normally. I currently assume: no. You gain the natural attacks of the form - so you get the claws and the bite. b) Does my attack value change from +5 to something? I currently assume the bear's STR 31 gets me a +15 so I end up with a +20 attack. Your Base Attack does not change. You may get a size modifier to attack if you change sizes (remember small gets +1, large gets -1). Also, 31 STR is +10, not +15. c) If I currently have inertial armor (+4) up, do I get a AC of 17+4 now, if the bear has AC 17 normally)? I assume: yes. It's an armor bonus - so long as you don't have any other armor bonus, yup, it stacks. d) If I attack with my new 2W4 claws do I get 2W4 +15 (for STR) now? I would assume yes, but am irritaed by teh fact that the standard dire bear only makes 2W4+10 with his same STR. Again, 31 STR is +10, not +15. e) Do my maximum HP change? With the bear's CON of 19 I would assume my max HP to go to 25+(10*+4). Temprary only. Correct. f) Do my current HP change? The metamorph heals like a nights rest, so I assume +10 HP plus the 10*+4 would be the answer. Correct. g) A dire bear has a HP adjustment of +51. Does that influence me anyway? I have no idea. No. That HP adjustment is its Hit Dice x Con adjustment.
siegfried1 05-01-07, 02:12 PM	You gain the natural attacks of the form - so you get the claws and the bite. Thanks for your quick reply. My +15 was wrong. Is there any wider logic behind the character getting the additional natural attacks? I am confused because the power decription says that a body with extra linbs do not grant extra attacks. I would read your reply as such that because bite and two claws /arms are the same as my human form's potential that's ok. A ten headed hydra would not be ok I assume, because my human only has one head. Is it this way? :confused:
PhaedrusXY 05-01-07, 02:22 PM	Even with the hoard of "clarifications" about the Polymorph spells, it is still far from clear. Just by reading the spells, I'd agree that it sounds like you couldn't use the creature's normal attack routine, if that gives you more attacks than normal. However, the examples from WotC indicate that you do gain the natural attack routine. Go read the Rules of the Game articles on Polymorphing for details.
Bacris 05-01-07, 02:22 PM	Yup, that's pretty much it.
CrimsonDeath 05-01-07, 04:32 PM	I am confused because the power decription says that a body with extra linbs do not grant extra attacks. I'm pretty sure that's so if you polymorph into a Thri-Kreen or a Girallon, you don't get extra weapon attacks.
Psikerlord 05-01-07, 10:55 PM	As I understand it, the polymorph subschool rules apply to metamorphisis. If that's right, you get the BAB, saves (which may well be worse than your own?) and physical stat's of the direbear. The metamorph description does not exclude picking up the BAB like the polymorph description does. However I would not think that you get the natural attacks bite/claw/claw sequence, because that is an application of extra limbs, which metamorphosis doesn't allow. That's my take on it. I agree your inertial armour stacks with the bears natural armour, you get the temp con hp bonus, and you heal. Having said all this, I have not looked through all the old articles on polymorph (2004, and later in Feb 2006). But these articles are all prior to PHBII in May 2006, when the polymorph subschool was introduced.
NoldorForce 05-01-07, 11:22 PM	As I understand it, the polymorph subschool rules apply to metamorphisis. If that's right, you get the BAB, saves (which may well be worse than your own?) and physical stat's of the direbear. The metamorph description does not exclude picking up the BAB like the polymorph description does. However I would not think that you get the natural attacks bite/claw/claw sequence, because that is an application of extra limbs, which metamorphosis doesn't allow. That's my take on it. I agree your inertial armour stacks with the bears natural armour, you get the temp con hp bonus, and you heal. Having said all this, I have not looked through all the old articles on polymorph (2004, and later in Feb 2006). But these articles are all prior to PHBII in May 2006, when the polymorph subschool was introduced. The polymorph subschool does not apply to Metamorphosis. It applies to the line starting from Alter Self, but not to Metamorphosis itself. The polymorph subschool contains explicit exceptions for the core Alter Self line, stating that the spell text trumps the subschool text in the case of a contradiction. Combined with the very thorough delineations on what you do and do not get through this entire line, as well as Metamorphosis, the polymorph subschool has no actual effect on any of these. The polymorph errata did not remove or fix the Alter Self line, but rather quarantined it. You explicitly get the natural weapons of the assumed form. The intent of the extra limbs line seems to be to not give you extra manufactured weapon attacks; this is how a number of WotC-site articles and NPCs have interpreted it.
Nephlite 05-01-07, 11:28 PM	Thanks for your quick reply. My +15 was wrong. Is there any wider logic behind the character getting the additional natural attacks? I am confused because the power decription says that a body with extra linbs do not grant extra attacks. I would read your reply as such that because bite and two claws /arms are the same as my human form's potential that's ok. A ten headed hydra would not be ok I assume, because my human only has one head. Is it this way? :confused: NJope, you get the creature natural attack routine: ie 10 bite attacks.
Racinante 05-02-07, 08:19 PM	Nope, you get the creature natural attack routine: ie 10 bite attacks. And from an abuse standpoint, the hydra reigns supreme. A single attack is all ten heads, as is a full attack. This means that when an AOO by the Hydra is provoked, it gets to bite with all 10 heads...