Metamorphing into a fly [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamorphing into a fly [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Psikerlord
05-24-07, 11:07 PM If I use metamorph to change into a fly (a fine size creature, the only example I could find - in the PHB creature size table), does a foe get an attack of opportunity to hit me when I fly away...? I thought there was a rule somewhere about very small creatures negating AoO when they move... but I can't find it...
Choon
05-24-07, 11:23 PM I can't cite the rule, but I say no. In reality I don't try to hit a fly until it's still. It's just too small.

Who would try to hit a moving fly with a weapon anyway...
Shaunboy
05-24-07, 11:32 PM Well I do not know where the rule is.. but as a house rule i'd say you would atleast have to make a spot check to get an Attack! Lol
Lycanthromancer
05-26-07, 01:25 PM It would certainly depend on the attacker's size. A Tiny creature with reach could do it.

Of course, flies apparently have a +200 dodge bonus to AC.
Millenia
05-26-07, 02:26 PM The AoO (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#provokinganAtta ckofOpportunity) description doesn't say anything about exceptions due to size, so you'll still provoke... but most people probably won't take it unless they're in combat and the fly is trying to distract them or shooting Energy Rays out of their eyes. ^_^;;

Also, do note that many small animals can be extrapolated to be Fine creatures, such as hummingbirds and normal mice.
Lycanthromancer
05-26-07, 02:30 PM Wouldn't those be Diminutive? Fine creatures are things like fleas and flies and ladybugs.
Millenia
05-26-07, 03:40 PM Nope.
According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat) chart, fine creatures have a length or height of 6 inches or less, and weigh less than 1/8th of a pound. Additionally, they take up half of a foot in space.
CrimsonDeath
05-27-07, 12:38 AM Note that a Fine creature has a ratehr generous Size bonus to AC. That would account for a great deal of the difficulty in hitting one.
turalisj
05-27-07, 02:15 AM Not to mention perfect fly speed and having a pretty good dextery. And I would give them evasion....
Millenia
05-27-07, 03:10 AM Not perfect. Perfect fly speed belongs to those who can move simply by willing things (magic) or whether they -are- part of the wind itself (air elementals).

Flies, helicopters, and the like have GOOD flight, because they still use mechanical motion, or whatever it's called.
hovnarr
05-27-07, 07:22 AM I typically wouldn't allow a player to assume a form that isn't statted out in the SRD. But if you feel like statting out a fruit fly... on the fly, so to speak, by all means do so.
Lycanthromancer
05-27-07, 08:05 PM Hummingbirds have a perfect flying maneuverability.
Fafnir
05-28-07, 05:47 AM Hummingbirds have a perfect flying maneuverability.

And make great familiars, too.
Psikerlord
05-28-07, 07:00 AM Which book are the hummingbird's stat's in?
Lycanthromancer
05-28-07, 10:03 AM Complete Hummingbird, page 3. :D
Psikerlord
05-28-07, 04:58 PM Ahhh... an obscure tome, that one!
Lycanthromancer
05-28-07, 05:00 PM That's because it's gone so fast that nobody ever sees it.
Thomar_of_Uointer
05-28-07, 07:34 PM If I use metamorph to change into a fly (a fine size creature, the only example I could find - in the PHB creature size table), does a foe get an attack of opportunity to hit me when I fly away...? I thought there was a rule somewhere about very small creatures negating AoO when they move... but I can't find it...

No such rule exists. However, you do get a +8 size bonus to AC.
Lycanthromancer
05-28-07, 07:38 PM Actually, creatures that don't have any reach (such as a fly, with a reach of 0, which is common among creatures smaller than Small), can't make AoOs themselves. There's nothing about not making AoOs against them.

But then, I'd be making lots of Hide checks, and taking a class that gives Hide in Plain Sight (hee, a fly with the Shadowdancer PrC? That'd explain why they're so hard to keep track of sometimes).
turalisj
05-28-07, 09:05 PM Oooo, a ninja fly? It sudden strikes the back of your neck! :D
BlaineTog
05-28-07, 10:36 PM Not perfect. Perfect fly speed belongs to those who can move simply by willing things (magic) or whether they -are- part of the wind itself (air elementals).

Flies, helicopters, and the like have GOOD flight, because they still use mechanical motion, or whatever it's called.I love made-up rules, don't you?
turalisj
05-28-07, 10:57 PM Oh yes. I also love the uneducated who think everything that is the best has to be magical.

Air Element: Can turn 360 degress, flip unpside down in midair without moving, an can hover.

Helicopter: See above.
Millenia
05-28-07, 10:57 PM I love made-up rules, don't you?
Well, that's how I see it by comparing some of the monsters with good or perfect flight in the SRD. >>a

Edit: Eh, nevermind. Going through the monsters, I found a few that use locomotion to get a perfect fly speed. Oh well... and here I thought I found out something unique on my own. ._.;
munin
05-28-07, 11:13 PM Actually, creatures that don't have any reach ..., can't make AoOs themselves.

To be a little more precise, creatures without reach can make AoOs in their own square. You threaten any square into which you can make a melee attack, which for Tiny or smaller creatures is only their own space.

Edit:

Perfect fly speed belongs to those who can move simply by willing things (magic) or whether they -are- part of the wind itself (air elementals)...Flies, helicopters, and the like have GOOD flight, because they still use mechanical motion, or whatever it's called.

The differences between good and perfect maneuverability are that creatures with good maneuverability have to slow down in order to reverse or make sharp turns and can't ascend as fast as they can fly straight. Looked at that way, helicopters surely have good maneuverability, but the houseflies and hummingbirds I've seen probably have perfect maneuverability. They obviously do have to slow down to reverse or turn and probably can't ascend quite as fast as they can fly straight, but not so much that you really notice (making their maneuverability effectively perfect). When you get down to really small mass to muscle cross-section ratios, gravity and even momentum are much less significant.
Millenia
05-28-07, 11:20 PM Hummingbirds have a perfect flying maneuverability.
Wrong. The description for flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) says: "Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability."

Victory is mine! :D
BlaineTog
05-29-07, 12:21 AM Well, that's how I see it by comparing some of the monsters with good or perfect flight in the SRD. >>aYeah, hence the "made up" part. When you have rules written down, describing what seems to be the case as if the intuition were a rule is innapropriate.

Wrong. The description for flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) says: "Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability."

Victory is mine! :DThat doesn't actually nail it down. The examples come when describing what air agility looks like, and before the exception which distinguish "good" from "perfect."
munin
05-29-07, 09:55 AM That doesn't actually nail it down. The examples come when describing what air agility looks like, and before the exception which distinguish "good" from "perfect."

No, I agree with Millenia and concede the point. Houseflies and hummingbirds are clearly given as examples of creatures with good maneuverability. I just missed it.

Houseflies and hummingbirds set the bar very high for maneuverability. Anything which can maneuver better than these probably has the ability to ignore gravity and momentum (such as incorporeal creatures, and I guess, air creatures and some outsiders). If houseflies and hummingbirds don't have perfect maneuverability, I can't imagine any other mundane creature that would, without magic.
BlaineTog
05-29-07, 01:36 PM No, I agree with Millenia and concede the point. Houseflies and hummingbirds are clearly given as examples of creatures with good maneuverability. I just missed it.Uh, no, they aren't, because they are mentioned before the exception.

In any case, look at the description of Perfect:

"It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground."

Now, what are the differences between Perfect and Good? Moving in reverse costs 5 feet, turning costs 5 feet, and moving up is at half-speed. Now other than that last difference (obviously), all of those "maneuvers" can be "performed" by a human walking. Does moving backwards generally make humans move more slowly? Sure, but not enough for the rules to bother mentioning it. The same goes for turning.

Now, look at a hummingbird. If ever there was a creature that could fly around as if it were a human walking, it would be the hummingbird. I'm sure it takes it a little movement to turn, and I doubt it can go as quickly backwards as forwards, but these little differences are minor at best, and the rules certainly wouldn't take 5 feet from the hummingbird to be able to perform them. Hence, perfect maneuverability.
munin
05-29-07, 03:32 PM What exception are you talking about? Houseflies and hummingbirds are basically established as the archetypical "creatures with good maneuverability", the way houseflies are the archetypical Fine creature. How is that excepted in the rules? Or are you just saying that your observations of houseflies and hummingbirds leads you to believe that they should have perfect maneuverability, and the rules should be corrected to reflect that?
Lazigothi
05-29-07, 04:54 PM It would certainly depend on the attacker's size. A Tiny creature with reach could do it.

Of course, flies apparently have a +200 dodge bonus to AC.

All the more impressive a display by the famous Miyamoto Musashi using a pair of chopsticks.

For a fly, one shouldn't be using a greataxe, but something more refined, precise, and elegant. . . or an aerosol can of "Cloudkill," only 5sp at the local market.
BlaineTog
05-30-07, 03:38 AM What exception are you talking about? Houseflies and hummingbirds are basically established as the archetypical "creatures with good maneuverability", the way houseflies are the archetypical Fine creature. How is that excepted in the rules?Read the sentence:

"Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability."

The housefly and hummingbird are given of examples of creatures that are "very agile in the air," not necessarily as creatures with good maneuverability. The clause (ie "but cannot change...") comes after the mentioning of houseflies and hummingbirds, and thus doesn't necessarily refer to them, and indeed, implies positivelly that it does not. That clause is the exception I was talking about.

And again, hummingbirds clearly meet the definition of perfect as "moving through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground." Since they aren't tagged explicitelly as "good" maneuverability, and since the implication is that they are like good but with the ability to more readily change direction, and since they fit this other definition of perfect, they must, therefore, be perfect.

Or are you just saying that your observations of houseflies and hummingbirds leads you to believe that they should have perfect maneuverability, and the rules should be corrected to reflect that?I think that I saw a hummingbird flitting about outside my window today, and that one would be extremely hard-pressed to imagine anything flying more perfectly than that, but I also don't think the rules are in need of ammendation.
munin
05-30-07, 09:47 AM I have to disagree with your interpretation of the grammar of that sentence. I can't imagine anyone deliberately composing a rules definition which includes examples which don't meet the definition. I'm sure the sentence was intended to convey that houseflies and hummingbirds are examples of creatures with good maneuverability.

You probably saw a hummingbird hovering and darting within a space of a few feet, which is within the abilities of a creature with good maneuverability. A hummingbird's ability to turn or turn in place is probably "perfect" I'll grant you (even an average flier like a hawk can hover for a few seconds). But can a hummingbird fly straight up as fast as it can fly level (about 30 mph)? Can it reverse from a 60 mph dive and instantly go straight up at 30 mph?
BlaineTog
05-30-07, 02:43 PM I have to disagree with your interpretation of the grammar of that sentence. I can't imagine anyone deliberately composing a rules definition which includes examples which don't meet the definition.Unless they included the examples to exemplify just one part of the definition, which, again, is what the order means. You give the grammar too little credit.

I'm sure the sentence was intended to convey that houseflies and hummingbirds are examples of creatures with good maneuverability.Surity doesn't equate to truth.

You probably saw a hummingbird hovering and darting within a space of a few feet, which is within the abilities of a creature with good maneuverability.That's not what the rules actually say.

A hummingbird's ability to turn or turn in place is probably "perfect" I'll grant you (even an average flier like a hawk can hover for a few seconds). But can a hummingbird fly straight up as fast as it can fly level (about 30 mph)? Can it reverse from a 60 mph dive and instantly go straight up at 30 mph?My hunch is that they can - or at least they can as well as a human could perform comperable feats. Perfect maneuverability doesn't require literally lacking momentum, just being able to control yourself despite that momentum about as well as a human can control theirs walking. A human cannot actually turn or spin around or change direction on a dime without losing some speed, but it isn't enough for the rules to pick up.

Anyway, I'm repeating myself. I'll only reply to new arguments.
turalisj
05-30-07, 05:27 PM A hummingbird can flap it's wings fast enough to hover in midair. Don't believe me? Go ask a specialist. Get thier opinion on how well a hummingbird flies.
Thomar_of_Uointer
06-01-07, 12:52 AM A hummingbird can flap it's wings fast enough to hover in midair. Don't believe me? Go ask a specialist. Get thier opinion on how well a hummingbird flies.

Yeah, but so can creatures with Good maneuverability.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Psikerlord 05-24-07, 11:07 PM	If I use metamorph to change into a fly (a fine size creature, the only example I could find - in the PHB creature size table), does a foe get an attack of opportunity to hit me when I fly away...? I thought there was a rule somewhere about very small creatures negating AoO when they move... but I can't find it...
Choon 05-24-07, 11:23 PM	I can't cite the rule, but I say no. In reality I don't try to hit a fly until it's still. It's just too small. Who would try to hit a moving fly with a weapon anyway...
Shaunboy 05-24-07, 11:32 PM	Well I do not know where the rule is.. but as a house rule i'd say you would atleast have to make a spot check to get an Attack! Lol
Lycanthromancer 05-26-07, 01:25 PM	It would certainly depend on the attacker's size. A Tiny creature with reach could do it. Of course, flies apparently have a +200 dodge bonus to AC.
Millenia 05-26-07, 02:26 PM	The AoO (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm#provokinganAtta ckofOpportunity) description doesn't say anything about exceptions due to size, so you'll still provoke... but most people probably won't take it unless they're in combat and the fly is trying to distract them or shooting Energy Rays out of their eyes. ^_^;; Also, do note that many small animals can be extrapolated to be Fine creatures, such as hummingbirds and normal mice.
Lycanthromancer 05-26-07, 02:30 PM	Wouldn't those be Diminutive? Fine creatures are things like fleas and flies and ladybugs.
Millenia 05-26-07, 03:40 PM	Nope. According to this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLi ttleCreaturesInCombat) chart, fine creatures have a length or height of 6 inches or less, and weigh less than 1/8th of a pound. Additionally, they take up half of a foot in space.
CrimsonDeath 05-27-07, 12:38 AM	Note that a Fine creature has a ratehr generous Size bonus to AC. That would account for a great deal of the difficulty in hitting one.
turalisj 05-27-07, 02:15 AM	Not to mention perfect fly speed and having a pretty good dextery. And I would give them evasion....
Millenia 05-27-07, 03:10 AM	Not perfect. Perfect fly speed belongs to those who can move simply by willing things (magic) or whether they -are- part of the wind itself (air elementals). Flies, helicopters, and the like have GOOD flight, because they still use mechanical motion, or whatever it's called.
hovnarr 05-27-07, 07:22 AM	I typically wouldn't allow a player to assume a form that isn't statted out in the SRD. But if you feel like statting out a fruit fly... on the fly, so to speak, by all means do so.
Lycanthromancer 05-27-07, 08:05 PM	Hummingbirds have a perfect flying maneuverability.
Fafnir 05-28-07, 05:47 AM	Hummingbirds have a perfect flying maneuverability. And make great familiars, too.
Psikerlord 05-28-07, 07:00 AM	Which book are the hummingbird's stat's in?
Lycanthromancer 05-28-07, 10:03 AM	Complete Hummingbird, page 3. :D
Psikerlord 05-28-07, 04:58 PM	Ahhh... an obscure tome, that one!
Lycanthromancer 05-28-07, 05:00 PM	That's because it's gone so fast that nobody ever sees it.
Thomar_of_Uointer 05-28-07, 07:34 PM	If I use metamorph to change into a fly (a fine size creature, the only example I could find - in the PHB creature size table), does a foe get an attack of opportunity to hit me when I fly away...? I thought there was a rule somewhere about very small creatures negating AoO when they move... but I can't find it... No such rule exists. However, you do get a +8 size bonus to AC.
Lycanthromancer 05-28-07, 07:38 PM	Actually, creatures that don't have any reach (such as a fly, with a reach of 0, which is common among creatures smaller than Small), can't make AoOs themselves. There's nothing about not making AoOs against them. But then, I'd be making lots of Hide checks, and taking a class that gives Hide in Plain Sight (hee, a fly with the Shadowdancer PrC? That'd explain why they're so hard to keep track of sometimes).
turalisj 05-28-07, 09:05 PM	Oooo, a ninja fly? It sudden strikes the back of your neck! :D
BlaineTog 05-28-07, 10:36 PM	Not perfect. Perfect fly speed belongs to those who can move simply by willing things (magic) or whether they -are- part of the wind itself (air elementals). Flies, helicopters, and the like have GOOD flight, because they still use mechanical motion, or whatever it's called.I love made-up rules, don't you?
turalisj 05-28-07, 10:57 PM	Oh yes. I also love the uneducated who think everything that is the best has to be magical. Air Element: Can turn 360 degress, flip unpside down in midair without moving, an can hover. Helicopter: See above.
Millenia 05-28-07, 10:57 PM	I love made-up rules, don't you? Well, that's how I see it by comparing some of the monsters with good or perfect flight in the SRD. >>a Edit: Eh, nevermind. Going through the monsters, I found a few that use locomotion to get a perfect fly speed. Oh well... and here I thought I found out something unique on my own. ._.;
munin 05-28-07, 11:13 PM	Actually, creatures that don't have any reach ..., can't make AoOs themselves. To be a little more precise, creatures without reach can make AoOs in their own square. You threaten any square into which you can make a melee attack, which for Tiny or smaller creatures is only their own space. Edit: Perfect fly speed belongs to those who can move simply by willing things (magic) or whether they -are- part of the wind itself (air elementals)...Flies, helicopters, and the like have GOOD flight, because they still use mechanical motion, or whatever it's called. The differences between good and perfect maneuverability are that creatures with good maneuverability have to slow down in order to reverse or make sharp turns and can't ascend as fast as they can fly straight. Looked at that way, helicopters surely have good maneuverability, but the houseflies and hummingbirds I've seen probably have perfect maneuverability. They obviously do have to slow down to reverse or turn and probably can't ascend quite as fast as they can fly straight, but not so much that you really notice (making their maneuverability effectively perfect). When you get down to really small mass to muscle cross-section ratios, gravity and even momentum are much less significant.
Millenia 05-28-07, 11:20 PM	Hummingbirds have a perfect flying maneuverability. Wrong. The description for flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) says: "Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability." Victory is mine! :D
BlaineTog 05-29-07, 12:21 AM	Well, that's how I see it by comparing some of the monsters with good or perfect flight in the SRD. >>aYeah, hence the "made up" part. When you have rules written down, describing what seems to be the case as if the intuition were a rule is innapropriate. Wrong. The description for flight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly) says: "Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability." Victory is mine! :DThat doesn't actually nail it down. The examples come when describing what air agility looks like, and before the exception which distinguish "good" from "perfect."
munin 05-29-07, 09:55 AM	That doesn't actually nail it down. The examples come when describing what air agility looks like, and before the exception which distinguish "good" from "perfect." No, I agree with Millenia and concede the point. Houseflies and hummingbirds are clearly given as examples of creatures with good maneuverability. I just missed it. Houseflies and hummingbirds set the bar very high for maneuverability. Anything which can maneuver better than these probably has the ability to ignore gravity and momentum (such as incorporeal creatures, and I guess, air creatures and some outsiders). If houseflies and hummingbirds don't have perfect maneuverability, I can't imagine any other mundane creature that would, without magic.
BlaineTog 05-29-07, 01:36 PM	No, I agree with Millenia and concede the point. Houseflies and hummingbirds are clearly given as examples of creatures with good maneuverability. I just missed it.Uh, no, they aren't, because they are mentioned before the exception. In any case, look at the description of Perfect: "It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground." Now, what are the differences between Perfect and Good? Moving in reverse costs 5 feet, turning costs 5 feet, and moving up is at half-speed. Now other than that last difference (obviously), all of those "maneuvers" can be "performed" by a human walking. Does moving backwards generally make humans move more slowly? Sure, but not enough for the rules to bother mentioning it. The same goes for turning. Now, look at a hummingbird. If ever there was a creature that could fly around as if it were a human walking, it would be the hummingbird. I'm sure it takes it a little movement to turn, and I doubt it can go as quickly backwards as forwards, but these little differences are minor at best, and the rules certainly wouldn't take 5 feet from the hummingbird to be able to perform them. Hence, perfect maneuverability.
munin 05-29-07, 03:32 PM	What exception are you talking about? Houseflies and hummingbirds are basically established as the archetypical "creatures with good maneuverability", the way houseflies are the archetypical Fine creature. How is that excepted in the rules? Or are you just saying that your observations of houseflies and hummingbirds leads you to believe that they should have perfect maneuverability, and the rules should be corrected to reflect that?
Lazigothi 05-29-07, 04:54 PM	It would certainly depend on the attacker's size. A Tiny creature with reach could do it. Of course, flies apparently have a +200 dodge bonus to AC. All the more impressive a display by the famous Miyamoto Musashi using a pair of chopsticks. For a fly, one shouldn't be using a greataxe, but something more refined, precise, and elegant. . . or an aerosol can of "Cloudkill," only 5sp at the local market.
BlaineTog 05-30-07, 03:38 AM	What exception are you talking about? Houseflies and hummingbirds are basically established as the archetypical "creatures with good maneuverability", the way houseflies are the archetypical Fine creature. How is that excepted in the rules?Read the sentence: "Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability." The housefly and hummingbird are given of examples of creatures that are "very agile in the air," not necessarily as creatures with good maneuverability. The clause (ie "but cannot change...") comes after the mentioning of houseflies and hummingbirds, and thus doesn't necessarily refer to them, and indeed, implies positivelly that it does not. That clause is the exception I was talking about. And again, hummingbirds clearly meet the definition of perfect as "moving through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground." Since they aren't tagged explicitelly as "good" maneuverability, and since the implication is that they are like good but with the ability to more readily change direction, and since they fit this other definition of perfect, they must, therefore, be perfect. Or are you just saying that your observations of houseflies and hummingbirds leads you to believe that they should have perfect maneuverability, and the rules should be corrected to reflect that?I think that I saw a hummingbird flitting about outside my window today, and that one would be extremely hard-pressed to imagine anything flying more perfectly than that, but I also don't think the rules are in need of ammendation.
munin 05-30-07, 09:47 AM	I have to disagree with your interpretation of the grammar of that sentence. I can't imagine anyone deliberately composing a rules definition which includes examples which don't meet the definition. I'm sure the sentence was intended to convey that houseflies and hummingbirds are examples of creatures with good maneuverability. You probably saw a hummingbird hovering and darting within a space of a few feet, which is within the abilities of a creature with good maneuverability. A hummingbird's ability to turn or turn in place is probably "perfect" I'll grant you (even an average flier like a hawk can hover for a few seconds). But can a hummingbird fly straight up as fast as it can fly level (about 30 mph)? Can it reverse from a 60 mph dive and instantly go straight up at 30 mph?
BlaineTog 05-30-07, 02:43 PM	I have to disagree with your interpretation of the grammar of that sentence. I can't imagine anyone deliberately composing a rules definition which includes examples which don't meet the definition.Unless they included the examples to exemplify just one part of the definition, which, again, is what the order means. You give the grammar too little credit. I'm sure the sentence was intended to convey that houseflies and hummingbirds are examples of creatures with good maneuverability.Surity doesn't equate to truth. You probably saw a hummingbird hovering and darting within a space of a few feet, which is within the abilities of a creature with good maneuverability.That's not what the rules actually say. A hummingbird's ability to turn or turn in place is probably "perfect" I'll grant you (even an average flier like a hawk can hover for a few seconds). But can a hummingbird fly straight up as fast as it can fly level (about 30 mph)? Can it reverse from a 60 mph dive and instantly go straight up at 30 mph?My hunch is that they can - or at least they can as well as a human could perform comperable feats. Perfect maneuverability doesn't require literally lacking momentum, just being able to control yourself despite that momentum about as well as a human can control theirs walking. A human cannot actually turn or spin around or change direction on a dime without losing some speed, but it isn't enough for the rules to pick up. Anyway, I'm repeating myself. I'll only reply to new arguments.
turalisj 05-30-07, 05:27 PM	A hummingbird can flap it's wings fast enough to hover in midair. Don't believe me? Go ask a specialist. Get thier opinion on how well a hummingbird flies.
Thomar_of_Uointer 06-01-07, 12:52 AM	A hummingbird can flap it's wings fast enough to hover in midair. Don't believe me? Go ask a specialist. Get thier opinion on how well a hummingbird flies. Yeah, but so can creatures with Good maneuverability.