Metamorphosis Maximum size [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamorphosis Maximum size [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KernOfGort
12-28-07, 03:47 PM Hi folks,

Sorry if this was asked before, but I was just wondering what the max size was for forms assumed by the Metamorphosis power. It says the minimum size, but no Max...

Thanks people
InkBlot
12-28-07, 05:40 PM There is no maximum size. Same deal with the magic version. You can use metamorphosis to become as large as your DM says you can. Most DMs won't let you become large enough to collapse under your own gravity, thus turning into a black hole and destroying the entire campaign world.
The_Mess
12-28-07, 05:46 PM Stupid DMs, trying to ruin my fun. If I want to collapse into a singularity and crush the entire world into oblivion, who is he to stop me! But, no, he'll whine, "I'll have to make up a whole new campaign!" Bah!

Mind you, I can't recall a game where the laws of physics were effectively enforced enough to have that occur. Most games tend to rephrase them as "reasonably suggestions of physics" and allow them to be ignored at will.
InkBlot
12-28-07, 05:59 PM Even in a flat world with "strongly worded memos" of physics, you could squish everybody by turning into a million-mile-wide one-mile-thick slab of granite and falling over.
Solstysse
12-28-07, 06:30 PM Well in the Eph it says that you can become a creature (according to the list of what you can and cannot become) with no more than 15 Hit Dice. The biggest thing I've found so far with 15 HD is Huge. It also says you can change minor details like hair color and such but you are for all intensive purposes an average looking member of the race you turn into. So you couldn't be a garg. mountain troll because they're just huge critters.

I'm not sure what the HD limit on Greater metamorphasis is though, I haven't looked at it because I don't have it yet.
Bacris
12-28-07, 07:00 PM I'm not sure I'd consider a singularity to be a simple object:

"You can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of."

DM adjudication right there disallows it :)
InkBlot
12-29-07, 01:36 AM What could be less complex than a uniform mass of the most basic and common kind of matter in the universe? You're not using metamorphosis to turn into a singularity, you're just using it to turn into a pile of hydrogen big enough to collapse under it's own gravity.

Note that this is a true nova tactic. You're unlikely to survive your own gravity.
TheKeyofE
12-29-07, 11:42 AM Note that this is a true nova tactic. You're unlikely to survive your own gravity.

But you revert to your original form when you die. What kind of effect would the sudden appearance then disappearance of a huge gravitational force do to the universe?
The_Mess
12-29-07, 11:53 AM Factor in time dillation. As a singularity, you're essentially timeless so there is no moment when you're dead to turn back!
Jaid
12-29-07, 12:21 PM the solution, of course, is to contingent revivify yourself =P

(mind you, i don't see anywhere that says a metamorphosis stops working when you die, so you'd need to put a lot of XP into that psionic revivify to outlast the 1 hour/level duration on metamorphosis)

of course, if you accept un-updated 2e material as canon, this doesn't work anyways, since official 2e material declares gravity to be binary except in exceptional circumstances ;)
TheKeyofE
12-29-07, 09:25 PM (mind you, i don't see anywhere that says a metamorphosis stops working when you die, so you'd need to put a lot of XP into that psionic revivify to outlast the 1 hour/level duration on metamorphosis)

Ahem.If you are slain while under the effect of this power, you revert to your original form, though you remain dead. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm)
InkBlot
12-30-07, 01:03 AM You bring up an interesting point. A psion metamorphosing into a ball of hydrogen large enough to form a singularity wouldn't actually survive to do so. First his atoms would fuse, and send out an enormous wave of energy. He'd become a star for a brief moment, before the heat or fusion or radiation killed him. In the end you'd have a roasted planet and an atomized psion. No singularity though.

I imagine it would look really cool. For a moment, everything would float up as it's sucked into the psion's gravity well. Then there'd be a brilliant flash of light, a wave of heat and energy more powerful than all the atomic weapons on Earth combined, then it would end just as suddenly with the remains of the world plummeting back down to what's left of the planet.

Best viewed several lightyears away, via clairvoyant sense, of course.
Millenia
12-31-07, 04:36 AM Note that this is a true nova tactic. You're unlikely to survive your own gravity.
Do note that if you can survive your own gravity and the resulting atomic fusion.... you're unlikely to survive the millions of years necessary to actually collapse, due to thermal expansion and whatnot.

... Well, unless you're an Elan, or similarly immortal.
InkBlot
12-31-07, 04:55 AM That raises an interesting question. Can a person still age while in the form of an object via metamorphosis?
CrimsonDeath
12-31-07, 03:39 PM You bring up an interesting point. A psion metamorphosing into a ball of hydrogen large enough to form a singularity wouldn't actually survive to do so. First his atoms would fuse, and send out an enormous wave of energy. He'd become a star for a brief moment, before the heat or fusion or radiation killed him. In the end you'd have a roasted planet and an atomized psion. No singularity though.

How about a spherical mass of water with a Swartzchild radius greater than its actual radius? (Note that Swartzchild radius grows linearly with mass, but mass is proportional to the cube of the radius of a sphere.) Not only would it instantly be a black hole as soon as it's formed, but it would also be much larger than a puny Hydrogen one (about the size of the one believed to exist at the center of our galaxy).
InkBlot
01-01-08, 05:21 PM I usually say lead instead of hydrogen, but I had that They Might Be Giants song stuck in my head. "The sun is a mass of incandescent gas, a gigantic nuclear furnace, where hydrogen is built into helium at a temperature of billions of degrees.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePKAwD-aUNo&feature=related)"
CrimsonDeath
01-01-08, 05:32 PM Lead is probably better. It's denser, so it wouldn't have to be as large (or as massive).
Jaid
01-01-08, 08:12 PM ah, well then... if you revert when you die, then psionic revivify + psionic contingency is all you need to survive this nova tactic.
InkBlot
01-02-08, 12:32 AM Well, then I hope you're a warforged who enjoys his peace and quiet. You've just destroyed the world. Any breathable air is likely to have been blasted from the surface of the planet.

Maybe you'll be OK if you can manifest quickened adapt body, or quickened planeshift to somewhere livable.
hovnarr
01-02-08, 07:07 AM Well, then I hope you're a warforged who enjoys his peace and quiet. You've just destroyed the world. Any breathable air is likely to have been blasted from the surface of the planet.

Maybe you'll be OK if you can manifest quickened adapt body, or quickened planeshift to somewhere livable.

Mmm... is that a planet collapsing, epic psionic PrC I smell?
Lycanthromancer
01-02-08, 10:21 AM It's called the hulking hurler. (http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/?action=view&current=MeteorStrike.jpg)
Jaid
01-03-08, 04:59 PM It's called the hulking hurler. (http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/?action=view&current=MeteorStrike.jpg)

are you sure? i could've sworn that the hulking hurler causes *ex*plosions, whereas this is more of an *im*plosion ;)
Tempest Stormwind
01-03-08, 05:16 PM Factor in time dillation. As a singularity, you're essentially timeless so there is no moment when you're dead to turn back!

This is true. If I collapse under my own gravity, I won't ever truly die, due to gravitational time dilation. It'll take an effectively infinite amount of time relative to you for any amount of time to pass for me, so no contingent-upon-death effects will ever happen.

Good luck influencing the game world as the cosmic manifestation of "divide by zero", though.
jbsaff
01-03-08, 05:27 PM So this is what happens to a question thread once the question has been answered: it turns into a discussion of D&D physics.
awaken_D_M_golem
01-03-08, 05:39 PM Ooh, this is rich.

So, you can blow up the Sun Barge of the Egyptian/Mule-who-randi pantheon.

Actually defeating a god of some DvR, is worth some sort of (dm fiat) experience points.
Perhaps even a DvR or two.
SDA - get me out of "Divide By Zero-ville"
* special : can't sneak up on any other sun gods, and then use this SDA again.

Simple mass of Hydrogen - umm ... to be all by itself, would require more than just a little of Lawful Alignment.
Though, hydrogen is a gas; maybe a small far off corner of the Elemental Plane of Air, or a Demiplane.

Real World Physics Q : how much volume is 15 HD worth of Hydrogen ??
CrimsonDeath
01-03-08, 07:02 PM Actually defeating a god of some DvR, is worth some sort of (dm fiat) experience points.

It's not DM fiat. According to "Deities and Demigods", a character who contributes meaningfully to the defeat of a deity (and survives) gets enough experience to gain a level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KernOfGort 12-28-07, 03:47 PM	Hi folks, Sorry if this was asked before, but I was just wondering what the max size was for forms assumed by the Metamorphosis power. It says the minimum size, but no Max... Thanks people
InkBlot 12-28-07, 05:40 PM	There is no maximum size. Same deal with the magic version. You can use metamorphosis to become as large as your DM says you can. Most DMs won't let you become large enough to collapse under your own gravity, thus turning into a black hole and destroying the entire campaign world.
The_Mess 12-28-07, 05:46 PM	Stupid DMs, trying to ruin my fun. If I want to collapse into a singularity and crush the entire world into oblivion, who is he to stop me! But, no, he'll whine, "I'll have to make up a whole new campaign!" Bah! Mind you, I can't recall a game where the laws of physics were effectively enforced enough to have that occur. Most games tend to rephrase them as "reasonably suggestions of physics" and allow them to be ignored at will.
InkBlot 12-28-07, 05:59 PM	Even in a flat world with "strongly worded memos" of physics, you could squish everybody by turning into a million-mile-wide one-mile-thick slab of granite and falling over.
Solstysse 12-28-07, 06:30 PM	Well in the Eph it says that you can become a creature (according to the list of what you can and cannot become) with no more than 15 Hit Dice. The biggest thing I've found so far with 15 HD is Huge. It also says you can change minor details like hair color and such but you are for all intensive purposes an average looking member of the race you turn into. So you couldn't be a garg. mountain troll because they're just huge critters. I'm not sure what the HD limit on Greater metamorphasis is though, I haven't looked at it because I don't have it yet.
Bacris 12-28-07, 07:00 PM	I'm not sure I'd consider a singularity to be a simple object: "You can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of." DM adjudication right there disallows it :)
InkBlot 12-29-07, 01:36 AM	What could be less complex than a uniform mass of the most basic and common kind of matter in the universe? You're not using metamorphosis to turn into a singularity, you're just using it to turn into a pile of hydrogen big enough to collapse under it's own gravity. Note that this is a true nova tactic. You're unlikely to survive your own gravity.
TheKeyofE 12-29-07, 11:42 AM	Note that this is a true nova tactic. You're unlikely to survive your own gravity. But you revert to your original form when you die. What kind of effect would the sudden appearance then disappearance of a huge gravitational force do to the universe?
The_Mess 12-29-07, 11:53 AM	Factor in time dillation. As a singularity, you're essentially timeless so there is no moment when you're dead to turn back!
Jaid 12-29-07, 12:21 PM	the solution, of course, is to contingent revivify yourself =P (mind you, i don't see anywhere that says a metamorphosis stops working when you die, so you'd need to put a lot of XP into that psionic revivify to outlast the 1 hour/level duration on metamorphosis) of course, if you accept un-updated 2e material as canon, this doesn't work anyways, since official 2e material declares gravity to be binary except in exceptional circumstances ;)
TheKeyofE 12-29-07, 09:25 PM	(mind you, i don't see anywhere that says a metamorphosis stops working when you die, so you'd need to put a lot of XP into that psionic revivify to outlast the 1 hour/level duration on metamorphosis) Ahem.If you are slain while under the effect of this power, you revert to your original form, though you remain dead. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm)
InkBlot 12-30-07, 01:03 AM	You bring up an interesting point. A psion metamorphosing into a ball of hydrogen large enough to form a singularity wouldn't actually survive to do so. First his atoms would fuse, and send out an enormous wave of energy. He'd become a star for a brief moment, before the heat or fusion or radiation killed him. In the end you'd have a roasted planet and an atomized psion. No singularity though. I imagine it would look really cool. For a moment, everything would float up as it's sucked into the psion's gravity well. Then there'd be a brilliant flash of light, a wave of heat and energy more powerful than all the atomic weapons on Earth combined, then it would end just as suddenly with the remains of the world plummeting back down to what's left of the planet. Best viewed several lightyears away, via clairvoyant sense, of course.
Millenia 12-31-07, 04:36 AM	Note that this is a true nova tactic. You're unlikely to survive your own gravity. Do note that if you can survive your own gravity and the resulting atomic fusion.... you're unlikely to survive the millions of years necessary to actually collapse, due to thermal expansion and whatnot. ... Well, unless you're an Elan, or similarly immortal.
InkBlot 12-31-07, 04:55 AM	That raises an interesting question. Can a person still age while in the form of an object via metamorphosis?
CrimsonDeath 12-31-07, 03:39 PM	You bring up an interesting point. A psion metamorphosing into a ball of hydrogen large enough to form a singularity wouldn't actually survive to do so. First his atoms would fuse, and send out an enormous wave of energy. He'd become a star for a brief moment, before the heat or fusion or radiation killed him. In the end you'd have a roasted planet and an atomized psion. No singularity though. How about a spherical mass of water with a Swartzchild radius greater than its actual radius? (Note that Swartzchild radius grows linearly with mass, but mass is proportional to the cube of the radius of a sphere.) Not only would it instantly be a black hole as soon as it's formed, but it would also be much larger than a puny Hydrogen one (about the size of the one believed to exist at the center of our galaxy).
InkBlot 01-01-08, 05:21 PM	I usually say lead instead of hydrogen, but I had that They Might Be Giants song stuck in my head. "The sun is a mass of incandescent gas, a gigantic nuclear furnace, where hydrogen is built into helium at a temperature of billions of degrees.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePKAwD-aUNo&feature=related)"
CrimsonDeath 01-01-08, 05:32 PM	Lead is probably better. It's denser, so it wouldn't have to be as large (or as massive).
Jaid 01-01-08, 08:12 PM	ah, well then... if you revert when you die, then psionic revivify + psionic contingency is all you need to survive this nova tactic.
InkBlot 01-02-08, 12:32 AM	Well, then I hope you're a warforged who enjoys his peace and quiet. You've just destroyed the world. Any breathable air is likely to have been blasted from the surface of the planet. Maybe you'll be OK if you can manifest quickened adapt body, or quickened planeshift to somewhere livable.
hovnarr 01-02-08, 07:07 AM	Well, then I hope you're a warforged who enjoys his peace and quiet. You've just destroyed the world. Any breathable air is likely to have been blasted from the surface of the planet. Maybe you'll be OK if you can manifest quickened adapt body, or quickened planeshift to somewhere livable. Mmm... is that a planet collapsing, epic psionic PrC I smell?
Lycanthromancer 01-02-08, 10:21 AM	It's called the hulking hurler. (http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/?action=view&current=MeteorStrike.jpg)
Jaid 01-03-08, 04:59 PM	It's called the hulking hurler. (http://s54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/?action=view&current=MeteorStrike.jpg) are you sure? i could've sworn that the hulking hurler causes explosions, whereas this is more of an implosion ;)
Tempest Stormwind 01-03-08, 05:16 PM	Factor in time dillation. As a singularity, you're essentially timeless so there is no moment when you're dead to turn back! This is true. If I collapse under my own gravity, I won't ever truly die, due to gravitational time dilation. It'll take an effectively infinite amount of time relative to you for any amount of time to pass for me, so no contingent-upon-death effects will ever happen. Good luck influencing the game world as the cosmic manifestation of "divide by zero", though.
jbsaff 01-03-08, 05:27 PM	So this is what happens to a question thread once the question has been answered: it turns into a discussion of D&D physics.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-03-08, 05:39 PM	Ooh, this is rich. So, you can blow up the Sun Barge of the Egyptian/Mule-who-randi pantheon. Actually defeating a god of some DvR, is worth some sort of (dm fiat) experience points. Perhaps even a DvR or two. SDA - get me out of "Divide By Zero-ville" * special : can't sneak up on any other sun gods, and then use this SDA again. Simple mass of Hydrogen - umm ... to be all by itself, would require more than just a little of Lawful Alignment. Though, hydrogen is a gas; maybe a small far off corner of the Elemental Plane of Air, or a Demiplane. Real World Physics Q : how much volume is 15 HD worth of Hydrogen ??
CrimsonDeath 01-03-08, 07:02 PM	Actually defeating a god of some DvR, is worth some sort of (dm fiat) experience points. It's not DM fiat. According to "Deities and Demigods", a character who contributes meaningfully to the defeat of a deity (and survives) gets enough experience to gain a level.