Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ReneBS 03-19-07, 09:37 AM	Does this power allow the manifester to become any size category, from Fine to Colossal? It seems a little crazy compared to the arcane spell Polymorph, which only allows one size category larger og smaller. I can understand the Greater version of Metamorphosis, since it resembles Shape Shift very much.
Bacris 03-19-07, 10:14 AM	Yup - but the big difference here is Polymorph is targetable - Metamorphosis is self-only. So you can Polymorph the tank to be a better tank - but an egoist is still an egoist with a d4 HD :)
SlanderPanic 03-19-07, 11:34 AM	That's why Bruce gave us the skin of Proteus. You're limited to forms of 14 hit dice or less, but hoo-boy can a creative PC with lots of Knowledge skills get a ton of mileage out of that thing! (Just ask my Sunday night DM about the headaches I've given him.)
Part-Human2 03-19-07, 11:57 AM	That's why Bruce gave us the skin of Proteus. You're limited to forms of 14 hit dice or less, but hoo-boy can a creative PC with lots of Knowledge skills get a ton of mileage out of that thing! (Just ask my Sunday night DM about the headaches I've given him.) 7 HD max because Manifester Level (ML) is fixed at 7th for the Skin of Proteus.
SlanderPanic 03-19-07, 01:00 PM	Woops, you're right. I'm at work and didn't check first. Still hell of useful.
Nephlite 03-19-07, 02:22 PM	7 HD max because Manifester Level (ML) is fixed at 7th for the Skin of Proteus. Craft it yourself for an ally would help increase manifester/cost, but yeah the market only has 7 HD, still good for Hydras :D
Part-Human2 03-19-07, 03:07 PM	Craft it yourself for an ally would help increase manifester/cost, but yeah the market only has 7 HD, still good for Hydras :D Nope, the rules doesn't allow that.
Bacris 03-19-07, 03:34 PM	How do you figure? Hydras are under 7 HD and are magical beasts. For item creation: "To calculate the costs involved in creating a psionic item, refer to Creating Magic Items. Although that information deals with magic items, the price formulas presented there are identical to those for psionic items." Use-activated or continuous Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp x Multiplier So since skin of the proteus is continuous and 1 min / level duration, the multiplier to that is 2. 4 x 15 x 2000 x 2 = 240kgp for a 15th manifester level skin. Interestingly, the skins don't appear to use the slotless multiplier in their cost... I guess Skins are technically a new slot.
Part-Human2 03-19-07, 05:00 PM	Nope, the rules doesn't allow that. Hydras, yes; Skin of Proteus with ML greater than 7th, no. Manifester Level: ... For psionic tattoos, power stones, and dorjes, the creator can set the manifester level of an item at any number high enough to manifest the stored power and not higher than her own manifester level. For other psionic items, the item itself determines the manifester level. In this case, the creator’s manifester level must be as high as the item’s manifester level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). Referring to Crafting Magic Items Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. .... For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). Caster Level: A wondrous item's caster level is fixed -- the creator cannot adjust it as she can for a scroll, potion, wand, or staff.
Bacris 03-19-07, 05:04 PM	So then you make a Greater Skin of the Proteus... no reason you can't just make a new version of it.
awaken_D_M_golem 03-19-07, 05:17 PM	So then you make a Greater Skin of the Proteus... no reason you can't just make a new version of it. Bacris done blow'd up duh game , again. Preach on , bruv'uh. One of the common mis-spellings is Meta-Porpho-sis. Could a Psuedo-natural Porpoise "swim" through the air ? And would little girls cry when they see it for the first time ?
Part-Human2 03-20-07, 12:39 AM	Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. Okay, 1) I had old SRD files not reflecting the DMG errata on Magic Item creation. 2) The Rules of the Game Article on Making Magic Items (Part 5), written post-errata, contains the original restriction that the item sets the CL. 3) Psionic Item Creation rules doesn't have errata and still states the item sets the ML. The DMG errata claims the magic version of the same wording is ambiguous and misleading therefore the psionic version's meaning is what the errata says it is for magic item creation. I concede; you can make the ML of a Skin of Proteus anything.
PhaedrusXY 03-20-07, 02:35 PM	Polymorph isn't limited by size, either. All it says is you can't polymorph into something smaller than Fine (and Fine is the smallest size in the game). Reread it. Then read the FAQ, and Skip's "Rules of the game" articles on Polymorphing. They clarify that indeed you are not limited to "size +1" with Polymorph, either. I'm not familiar with all the new "Polymorph subschool" junk, but from what I hear, it doesn't apply to the original spells, as they have priority over it. The subschool is meant for use in games where Polymorph and its ilk are thrown out and replaced entirely by the subschool.
ReneBS 03-21-07, 02:38 AM	Polymorph is limited be size just as Alter Self is, and it is true that it can assume sizes no smaller than Fine (but the recipient would have to be tiny to achieve Fine size). Polymorph functions as Alter self except for some changes, but buttom line with Alter Self is "The new form must be within one size category of your normal size." and since that is not changed in Polymorph it must still apply. This is without taking "Rules of the Game" into account. Couold you copy-paste the lines in question here?
PhaedrusXY 03-21-07, 01:56 PM	Couold you copy-paste the lines in question here?As I said earlier, this is also addressed in the FAQ. It is pretty easy to search PDF and webpages. Go look yourself, if you want quotes. I don't have time to play "secretary" for you. Personally, I agree that Polymorph should be limited by size, for exactly the reasons you stated, but WotC officially does not.
unusualsuspect 03-21-07, 01:59 PM	The argument against that, Rene, would be something like this: Alter Self has the text you stated, saying the new form must be within one size category of you. Granted. Does Alter Self have any text whatsoever that limits the size category even more, say, by saying "No matter what the original size, you can't achieve a size smaller than Fine or a size larger then Huge"? If not, then to say that the text in Polymorph concerning size category limits can be interpreted in two ways... 1. It imposes a new restriction on the size categories available by Alter Self and keeps the old one. 2. It exchanges the old restriction (within one size category) into a more loose restriction (no smaller than fine, as big as HD allows) as per the "except as follows" clause. A lot of people prefer the 2nd interpretation (myself included), especially given the way Metamorphosis indubitably works concerning size categories, and their practically word-for-word similarity. I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong, I'm just saying it seems a bit nonsensical for the power and spell to have identical wording for size category possibilities and have entirely DIFFERENT effects.
PhaedrusXY 03-21-07, 03:39 PM	Had a minute. Here is the FAQ entry: Alter self (Player’s Handbook, page 197), the base spell in the polymorph chain, says that the new form must be within one size category of your normal size. Is the same true of other spells in the chain? Not necessarily, although the rules aren’t as clear as they could be. Polymorph, and any spell that refers back to it (such as polymorph any object), allows the new form to be of any size of Fine or greater. Shapechange specifically delineates its size limitations (Fine to Colossal), which is a much clearer way of saying the same thing.Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part Three) says: The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal.With no restrictions based on the original size.
ReneBS 03-22-07, 04:14 AM	Thanks for the info Phaedrus, much appreciated. Man, that seriously boosts polymorph and equals out the differences between it and metamorphosis. Personally, I always let the rules FAQ and Rules of the Game overrule player/DM rules interpretation disputes, and since this seems to be the case here, so be it. Thank you very much to the above posters! Have a nice one
ravidubey 03-23-07, 10:43 PM	7 HD, still good for Hydras :D Sorry munchkins :), from the SRD: A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You get the Hydra's racial bonus feat of combat reflexes and extraordinary special attacks except those that let you gain extra attacks from having multiple limbs (in this case heads).
PhaedrusXY 03-24-07, 04:32 PM	Sorry munchkins :), from the SRD: A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You get the Hydra's racial bonus feat of combat reflexes and extraordinary special attacks except those that let you gain extra attacks from having multiple limbs (in this case heads).Do more homework, then come back. I understand your reasoning, and even agree that it should be the case. But that is not the official stance on things by WotC. From the Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part Two) A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. Many DMs and players find this rule puzzling. Essentially, it means that if you suddenly find yourself with two extra arms you can't just pick up four weapons and wade into melee, use a four-handed weapon, fire and reload a heavy crossbow (even a repeating heavy crossbow) in the same round, or perform any other combat tricks that come to mind. You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them.If you think this isn't clear, here is the full attack listed in that article for a level 4 elven sorcerer when he uses Alter Self to turn into a lizardfolk: Full Atk +1 melee (1d4-1, 2 claws) and -4 melee (1d4-1 bite),The weird, and somewhat contradictory, thing to me is that it also lists using a weapon and a bite as a possible full attack. This seems like combining the two forms attacks to me. I think that it should work exactly like you've argued, but again, WotC doesn't. This was also confirmed in a FAQ somewhere, I think. In my opinion, they obviously have no idea how to balance their own polymorph spells, or even what the real problem with them is. I use my own homebrewed versions, when I DM. Lots of people do, and some of them are alot better than the "official" ones.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 07:00 PM	Sorry munchkins :), from the SRD: A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You get the Hydra's racial bonus feat of combat reflexes and extraordinary special attacks except those that let you gain extra attacks from having multiple limbs (in this case heads). Er, no. You're making alter self trump polymorph, when it's pretty clear it's the other way around. The idea that the spell that references the other spell trumps it when it differs is why people are saying polymorph doesn't have a size limitation. Not getting extra attacks because of limbs is *part of* not getting extraordinary special attacks. Polymorph explicitly grants you all the extraordinary attack forms of the subject, which includes the extra limbs, just like it explicitly lets you be any size larger than Fine, not just within one size category of your original form.
ArcTan 03-24-07, 07:02 PM	The weird, and somewhat contradictory, thing to me is that it also lists using a weapon and a bite as a possible full attack. This seems like combining the two forms attacks to me. Ordinary lizardfolk are capable of picking up weapons and using them, you know. Although I think they confused themselves, here -- that line simply doesn't apply to polymorph. It's overridden by polymorph coming out and saying you get all the base creature's forms of attack (which alter self doesn't give you). I don't get what they're saying here, at all. If they're saying that if you're a marilith you can hit with all the marilith's arms as long as you don't wield any weapons the base marilith in the MM isn't wielding, I loudly protest. Mariliths can wield any weapons they're proficient with, or no weapons at all. That's how it should go with all monsters. You can't wield longswords in the heads of a hydra because *hydras are incapable of wielding weapons with those limbs*, not because of the polymorph spell.
ravidubey 03-25-07, 02:43 PM	Er, no. You're making alter self trump polymorph, when it's pretty clear it's the other way around. The idea that the spell that references the other spell trumps it when it differs is why people are saying polymorph doesn't have a size limitation. Not getting extra attacks because of limbs is *part of* not getting extraordinary special attacks. Polymorph explicitly grants you all the extraordinary attack forms of the subject, which includes the extra limbs, just like it explicitly lets you be any size larger than Fine, not just within one size category of your original form. The description I read was from the Metamorphosis spell itself, not Alter Self, so munchkin hope is once again dashed. Exraordinary special attacks are listed with an (Ex), they aren't automtically assumed. Pounce is an extraordinary special attack, so yes you can attack with multiple attacks when you take the form of a lion and use a pounce attack. The multiple attacks of hydras are part of its standard attack routine, so until WOTC lists a hydra's multiple attacks with an (Ex) you don't get them. I mean, good lord, think of why WOTC didn't list them with an (Ex)-- it's because of PC's with polymorph/metamorphosis who scan each and every monster entry looking for loopholes in the rules. 7-15 attacks per round is definitely a loophole which the (Ex) rule closes up nicely.
ravidubey 03-25-07, 03:00 PM	From the Rules of the Game: Polymorphing (Part Two) And that's where you need to end. As you've discovered, you'll just about never find answers and probably just as many new questions from most WOTC web site articles. The guys who write those articles are the ultimate munchkins without any of the editorial process or (supposed) playtesting that goes with official rules. I think that it should work exactly like you've argued, but again, WotC doesn't. This was also confirmed in a FAQ somewhere, I think. In my opinion, they obviously have no idea how to balance their own polymorph spells, or even what the real problem with them is. Needless to say I agree with you. There's no way a single spell should allow a wizard to outclass any three fighters of his own level in melee combat for several minutes at a time. It's many times deadlier when a psion is allowed to do the same since he doesn't need hands or components to manifest additional powers. Until they publish this exact "clarification" in a real wizards book or their official FAQ, I'll go with the existing rules which give you natural weapons but not attack routines outside of "extraordinary" attacks.
PhaedrusXY 03-25-07, 04:40 PM	Until they publish this exact "clarification" in a real wizards book or their official FAQ, I'll go with the existing rules which give you natural weapons but not attack routines outside of "extraordinary" attacks.I'm fairly sure this has been addressed in a FAQ.
Bacris 03-25-07, 06:52 PM	stuff... You know, people might actually read your arguments if you don't start calling others munchkins, which, on these boards, is a derogatory term. Just some food for thought.
carnivore 03-27-07, 04:01 PM	actually i was suprised by what i found...notice: Metamorphosis Psychometabolism Level: Egoist 4 Display: Material and olfactory Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 min./level (D) for a creature; 1 hour/level (D) for an object Power Points: 7 You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form, or any other type except construct, elemental, outsider, and undead. The assumed form can have as many Hit Dice as your manifester level, to a maximum of 15. You can’t assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you assume an incorporeal, ectoplasmic, or gaseous form. You cannot take the form of any creature that has a template. Your type and subtype (if applicable) change to match the new form. Upon changing, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal you further). If you are slain while under the effect of this power, you revert to your original form, though you remain dead. You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retain your own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also gain all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but do not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural, psionic, or spell-like abilities. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and special qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have, if any. You keep all extraordinary special attacks and special qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any benefits of the racial traits of your normal form. If you have a template, special abilities it provides are likewise not retained. If the assumed form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any manifesting ability you had in your original form. You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws or a bite), racial bonuses on skill checks, racial bonus feats, and any anatomical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that type. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s species. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this power to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. When the change occurs, your equipment either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item in question) or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your normal form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms (mouth, hands, or the like) at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its normal form. You can also use this power to assume the form of an inanimate object. You gain the object’s hardness and retain your own hit points. You can take the shape of almost any simple object you can think of. If you attempt to take the form of a complex object, you must make an appropriate skill check.. If you fail the check, your manifestation of the power does not succeed. Likewise, you cannot take the form of a complex mechanical mechanism unless you have some sort of skill associated with the object. You cannot use this power to assume the form of a psionic item or a magic item, or any object with a hardness of 15 or higher. You also cannot take the form of a psionically animated mechanism or any object formed of ectoplasm. As an inanimate object, you lose all mobility. You retain your normal senses and your ability to speak. You can manifest a power if you make a Concentration check (DC 20 + power level); however, doing so ends the duration of this power. If you take damage while in the form of an object, your actual body also takes damage (but the object’s hardness, if any, protects you). Five-Headed Hydra Size/Type: Huge Magical Beast Hit Dice: 5d10+28 (55 hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 20 ft. Armor Class: 15 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+16 Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3) Full Attack: 5 bites +6 melee (1d10+3) Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: — Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 15, low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 9 Skills: Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +11 Feats: Combat ReflexesB, Iron Will, Toughness Environment: Temperate marshes (Pyro: Warm marshes) (Cryo: Cold marshes) Organization: Solitary Challenge Rating: 4 (normal); 6 (pyro- or cryo-) Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items Alignment: Usually neutral Advancement: — Level Adjustment: — ravidubey is correct.....you do not gain the benifit of getting to Attack with all of the Heads....unless it was listed under the Special Attacks section and was an Extraordinary ability
carnivore 03-27-07, 04:38 PM	also the FAQ does not have any info on this specific thing :D
NoldorForce 03-27-07, 06:21 PM	That text about extra limbs is confusing. I believe that it only refers to modifications of manufactured weapon routines. If one looks at them, both Alter Self (on which Polymorph is based) and Metamorphosis have the following lines:You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include...natural weapons (such as claws or a bite),...Bolding mine. Thus becoming a hydra by such methods is indeed nasty.
carnivore 03-28-07, 11:01 AM	yes...you do gain the Physical Features...but that does not allow you to use them...in fact that exact Paragraph precludes the use of them for extra attacks....notice: You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws or a bite), racial bonuses on skill checks, racial bonus feats, and any anatomical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. however...if you normally have a body that has extra limbs and can use them for extra attacks(Thri-kreen,Anthropomorphic Squid,etc...) then if you use Metamorphosis to transform into another creature with multiple limbs....then you can use them up to the number of attacks you had Pre-Metamorphosis......it also applies to both Natural weapons and Manufactured weapons(....or more advantageous two-weapon attacks)