Metamorphosis/Metamorphic Transfer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Metamorphosis/Metamorphic Transfer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
CrimsonDeath
07-10-07, 07:04 PM OK, I'd been considering using the Metamorphosis power sometime in the future, so I did some research on the boards. However, it's just been getting more confusing.

Several people have been suggesing the Choker and Pixie. However, the Choker's Quickness is an Extraordinary special quality (which the Metamorphosis power explicitly states that you don't get) and the Pixie's Greater Invisibility is a Supernatural special quality (which, if it is addressed at all, is considered a supernatural ability-- once again, explicitly denied by Metamorphosis). I checked the errata, and it doesn't even mention the Metamorphosis power, only Greater Metamorphosis. Are the people making these suggestions confused, or is there some rules update that I haven't found?

Metamorphic Transfer is also a hotly contested topic. Some people seem to think that you can acquire three different supernatural abilities (one for each form you assume) and use each of them three times during the duration of the power, and that if you assume the same form twice in the same day and assume the same supernatural ability, your uses for that ability reset. Others seem to think that you only get three uses of any assumed supernatural ability at all each day, so if you assume the form of a dragon and use the breath weapon three times, you're done for the day. Also, can it be used only with supernatural attacks, or can one assume supernatural special qualities as well?

Also, do your HP change if your Constitution changes? (I don't see it mentioned one way or the other in the Metamorphosis power.)

The reason I ask is because I was considering playing an Ardent Tashalatora. After the research I've done, I'm starting to question whether Metamorphic Transfer is even worth a feat (especially with a Charisma modifier of +0).
sijigs
07-10-07, 09:14 PM Others seem to think that you only get three uses of any assumed supernatural ability at all each day, so if you assume the form of a dragon and use the breath weapon three times, you're done for the day.

I read it as 3 x a day regardless of what SU. Similar to other feats that give you extra SU abilities eg.. Xeph's burst, additional Monk stunning etc. So, 1 x dragon breath and 2 x whatever. Or 3 of the same thing.

Also, do your HP change if your Constitution changes? (I don't see it mentioned one way or the other in the Metamorphosis power.)

I would say 'no' using similar guidelines as the new polymorph sub-school desc. Without looking at it.. perhaps that may be a good guideline to start?
Lycanthromancer
07-10-07, 11:10 PM Metamorphosis isn't based on polymorph or its relations at all, so no polymorph errata touches it. At all. So, yes, your hp change with your Constitution, as noted in the power's text.

Otherwise, Metamorphic Transfer grants 3 uses of up to 3 supernatural abilities per day. You need not use the same one, and there is no time limit on how long they can last (other than the length of the effect in question).
sijigs
07-10-07, 11:42 PM Metamorphosis isn't based on polymorph or its relations at all, so no polymorph errata touches it. At all. So, yes, your hp change with your Constitution, as noted in the power's text.

Not looking at the rulebooks, if polymorphing energies come from the same source (if there is such a thing).. and if it makes sense vice versa to apply to psionics, why not?

(gee, here comes his shambling mound with 5,000 hps again.. i really hate that guy)
PhaedrusXY
07-11-07, 02:11 AM Not looking at the rulebooksThat pretty much ends any chance of a discussion about the game rules right there.
the Pixie's Greater Invisibility is a Supernatural special quality (which, if it is addressed at all, is considered a supernatural ability-- once again, explicitly denied by Metamorphosis). The whole point of Metamorphic Transfer is to grant you the use of a supernatural ability when using Metamorphosis. The pixie's invisibilty is a supernatural ability. I don't see what the problem is.

You do need Greater Metamorphosis to get the Quickness ability of a Choker, though.
sijigs
07-11-07, 02:21 AM That pretty much ends any chance of a discussion about the game rules right there.

Lycan seems to disregard other written material so I'm also applying the same 'logic'. Why should polyMORPH and metaMORPH principles be different?

The whole point of Metamorphic Transfer is to grant you the use of a supernatural ability when using Metamorphosis. The pixie's invisibilty is a supernatural ability. I don't see what the problem is.

Obviously other folks aren't just going to turn into pixies. Go see Shambling Mound and this is why they changed it with the new rules to prevent such rape-age.
SilentOne
07-11-07, 02:46 AM Alright, I'm missing something here. What's so powerful about the shambling mound?
sijigs
07-11-07, 02:50 AM Alright, I'm missing something here. What's so powerful about the shambling mound?

Immunity to Electricity (Ex): Shamblers take no damage from electricity. Instead, any electricity attack used against a shambler temporarily grants it 1d4 points of Constitution. The shambler loses these points at the rate of 1 per hour.

*zzt* *zzt* *zzt* *zzt*

that's feels good.. that feels reaallyyy good
Polaris
07-11-07, 03:19 AM Metamorphosis isn't based on polymorph or its relations at all, so no polymorph errata touches it. At all. So, yes, your hp change with your Constitution, as noted in the power's text.

RAW he's right and that makes metamorphosis an even better power (in terms of relative effect) than ever before. Metamorphosis is clearly the psonic rewrite of Polymorph as it was written and errataed when the XPH was written, but psionic powers are not the same thing as spells which means that Metamorphosis (and the Greater Version) are not affected by any Polymorph errata, RAW.

-Polaris
sijigs
07-11-07, 07:28 AM Yes you're both right. I guess I should've constructed my counter-argument a bit better.

I guess I should've said "I think it should be house-ruled not to adjust HPs etc etc because.. "
CrimsonDeath
07-11-07, 01:43 PM Shambling Mound cheese shouldn't be too bad with Metamorphosis because it only lasts 1 min/level when you turn into a creature. The 5000HP shambling mound would take a couple of minutes to set up (probably with Energy Wall [electric]), and the HP aren't temporary; they come off the bottom when you change back. But then, with a two-level dip into Deepwarden, it might be worth it...
PhaedrusXY
07-15-07, 03:51 AM Shambling Mound cheese doesn't even work with metamorphic transfer. Their immunity to electricity is Extraordinary, not Supernatural.
sijigs
07-15-07, 04:44 AM Shambling Mound cheese doesn't even work with metamorphic transfer. Their immunity to electricity is Extraordinary, not Supernatural.

LOL. My beef wasn't with metamorphic transfer. It was with how metamorphosis has been excluded from the errata.. and Con + hit point change.

The Shambling Mound cheese is just an example of how it could be abused. ;)
CrimsonDeath
07-15-07, 03:25 PM Actually, has Polymorph been errataed? I couldn't find it in the PHB errata file...
sijigs
07-15-07, 05:40 PM Check it out:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589497
CrimsonDeath
07-15-07, 06:15 PM Check it out:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589497
Conspicuously absent from that list is the polymorph spell itself, which is specifically exempted from the general rules in the Polymorph subschool.
sijigs
07-15-07, 06:28 PM Conspicuously absent from that list is the polymorph spell itself, which is specifically exempted from the general rules in the Polymorph subschool.

It's the *polymorph* subschool.. it means it encapsulates *anything* that has the word "morph" on it. eg.. tellytubbymorph. Turn into one and all the subschools rules apply! :P

Disclaimer: I haven't had coffee yet.
unusualsuspect
07-15-07, 07:05 PM It's the *polymorph* subschool.. it means it encapsulates *anything* that has the word "morph" on it. eg.. tellytubbymorph. Turn into one and all the subschools rules apply! :P

Disclaimer: I haven't had coffee yet.

Sorta right, but the details are fuzzy.

The "polymorph errata" didn't actually touch Polymorph, Alter Self, Polymorph other, or Shapechange AT ALL. What it did was change the way Wildshape works AND changed all references of "polymorph self" abilities into a new category called (IIRC) Change Shape, which works in many ways the same as wildshape was changed to work.

The polymorph subschool was introduced, if memory serves, in the PHB II. I believe it is all-encompassing to a degree (it's rules apply to all spells in the subschool, which includes Polymorph, Alter Self, Polymorph Other, and Shapechange as well as the introduced spells like Troll Shape), but any text in Polymorph overrides the general rules of the polymorph subschool.

Metamorphosis, as it happens, was entirely untouched RAW, though some might argue it should have the same sort of "sub rules" in place.

Nevertheless, the Shambling Mound cheese works just as well with the new Polymorph Subschool as it did before - Temporary Constitution increases would increase HP as normal, you just wouldn't have a change in HP at the time you polymorphed into the Shambling Mound.

Example: Joe the Wizard (con 14) Shapechanges into a Shambling Mound, changing all his physical scores to the Shambling Mound's scores. Joe the Wizard's constitution changes from his base 14 to the Mound's 17, but in line with the polymorph subschool, does NOT change his HP total. Joe then has his friend Bob the Psion cast Energy Wall (electricity) on him. As per the Shambling Mound's Immunity to Electricity, Joe would now gain 1d4 points of temporary constitution, changing his HP total as normal (gaining 2 points in constitution would grant 1 hit point per HD).
sijigs
07-15-07, 07:33 PM Didn't think of it that way...

*goes to make my shambling mound*
CrimsonDeath
07-15-07, 08:52 PM It's the *polymorph* subschool.. it means it encapsulates *anything* that has the word "morph" on it. eg.. tellytubbymorph. Turn into one and all the subschools rules apply! :P

Disclaimer: I haven't had coffee yet.
A spell is in the Polymorph subschool only if it was first printed as a part of that subschool, or if it is based on Polymorph or Alter Self. All the subschool rules apply unless they are specifically overridden by the text of the spell itself. And, as I recall, many of the general rules governing the Polymorph subschool is specifically overridden in the text of Alter Self and Polymorph.
unusualsuspect
07-15-07, 09:07 PM A spell is in the Polymorph subschool only if it was first printed as a part of that subschool, or if it is based on Polymorph or Alter Self. All the subschool rules apply unless they are specifically overridden by the text of the spell itself. And, as I recall, many of the general rules governing the Polymorph subschool is specifically overridden in the text of Alter Self and Polymorph.

The "hp doesn't change" subschool rule, however, is never explicitly overridden by Polymorph.

This means that if you play with the polymorph subschool, Polymorph (and Shapechange, etc) won't change your HD based on a change in Con score.

Metamorphosis, lacking the polymorph subschool, would use the default rules for changes in constitution, and thus would change HP if the Con modifier changed.
CrimsonDeath
07-16-07, 03:14 AM Good point.

Wait.

What were we talking about?
Ocom
07-16-07, 03:44 AM It seems that The Wizards's neglect of psionics is actually a good thing

Wizards's :P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrimsonDeath 07-10-07, 07:04 PM	OK, I'd been considering using the Metamorphosis power sometime in the future, so I did some research on the boards. However, it's just been getting more confusing. Several people have been suggesing the Choker and Pixie. However, the Choker's Quickness is an Extraordinary special quality (which the Metamorphosis power explicitly states that you don't get) and the Pixie's Greater Invisibility is a Supernatural special quality (which, if it is addressed at all, is considered a supernatural ability-- once again, explicitly denied by Metamorphosis). I checked the errata, and it doesn't even mention the Metamorphosis power, only Greater Metamorphosis. Are the people making these suggestions confused, or is there some rules update that I haven't found? Metamorphic Transfer is also a hotly contested topic. Some people seem to think that you can acquire three different supernatural abilities (one for each form you assume) and use each of them three times during the duration of the power, and that if you assume the same form twice in the same day and assume the same supernatural ability, your uses for that ability reset. Others seem to think that you only get three uses of any assumed supernatural ability at all each day, so if you assume the form of a dragon and use the breath weapon three times, you're done for the day. Also, can it be used only with supernatural attacks, or can one assume supernatural special qualities as well? Also, do your HP change if your Constitution changes? (I don't see it mentioned one way or the other in the Metamorphosis power.) The reason I ask is because I was considering playing an Ardent Tashalatora. After the research I've done, I'm starting to question whether Metamorphic Transfer is even worth a feat (especially with a Charisma modifier of +0).
sijigs 07-10-07, 09:14 PM	Others seem to think that you only get three uses of any assumed supernatural ability at all each day, so if you assume the form of a dragon and use the breath weapon three times, you're done for the day. I read it as 3 x a day regardless of what SU. Similar to other feats that give you extra SU abilities eg.. Xeph's burst, additional Monk stunning etc. So, 1 x dragon breath and 2 x whatever. Or 3 of the same thing. Also, do your HP change if your Constitution changes? (I don't see it mentioned one way or the other in the Metamorphosis power.) I would say 'no' using similar guidelines as the new polymorph sub-school desc. Without looking at it.. perhaps that may be a good guideline to start?
Lycanthromancer 07-10-07, 11:10 PM	Metamorphosis isn't based on polymorph or its relations at all, so no polymorph errata touches it. At all. So, yes, your hp change with your Constitution, as noted in the power's text. Otherwise, Metamorphic Transfer grants 3 uses of up to 3 supernatural abilities per day. You need not use the same one, and there is no time limit on how long they can last (other than the length of the effect in question).
sijigs 07-10-07, 11:42 PM	Metamorphosis isn't based on polymorph or its relations at all, so no polymorph errata touches it. At all. So, yes, your hp change with your Constitution, as noted in the power's text. Not looking at the rulebooks, if polymorphing energies come from the same source (if there is such a thing).. and if it makes sense vice versa to apply to psionics, why not? (gee, here comes his shambling mound with 5,000 hps again.. i really hate that guy)
PhaedrusXY 07-11-07, 02:11 AM	Not looking at the rulebooksThat pretty much ends any chance of a discussion about the game rules right there. the Pixie's Greater Invisibility is a Supernatural special quality (which, if it is addressed at all, is considered a supernatural ability-- once again, explicitly denied by Metamorphosis). The whole point of Metamorphic Transfer is to grant you the use of a supernatural ability when using Metamorphosis. The pixie's invisibilty is a supernatural ability. I don't see what the problem is. You do need Greater Metamorphosis to get the Quickness ability of a Choker, though.
sijigs 07-11-07, 02:21 AM	That pretty much ends any chance of a discussion about the game rules right there. Lycan seems to disregard other written material so I'm also applying the same 'logic'. Why should polyMORPH and metaMORPH principles be different? The whole point of Metamorphic Transfer is to grant you the use of a supernatural ability when using Metamorphosis. The pixie's invisibilty is a supernatural ability. I don't see what the problem is. Obviously other folks aren't just going to turn into pixies. Go see Shambling Mound and this is why they changed it with the new rules to prevent such rape-age.
SilentOne 07-11-07, 02:46 AM	Alright, I'm missing something here. What's so powerful about the shambling mound?
sijigs 07-11-07, 02:50 AM	Alright, I'm missing something here. What's so powerful about the shambling mound? Immunity to Electricity (Ex): Shamblers take no damage from electricity. Instead, any electricity attack used against a shambler temporarily grants it 1d4 points of Constitution. The shambler loses these points at the rate of 1 per hour. zzt zzt zzt zzt that's feels good.. that feels reaallyyy good
Polaris 07-11-07, 03:19 AM	Metamorphosis isn't based on polymorph or its relations at all, so no polymorph errata touches it. At all. So, yes, your hp change with your Constitution, as noted in the power's text. RAW he's right and that makes metamorphosis an even better power (in terms of relative effect) than ever before. Metamorphosis is clearly the psonic rewrite of Polymorph as it was written and errataed when the XPH was written, but psionic powers are not the same thing as spells which means that Metamorphosis (and the Greater Version) are not affected by any Polymorph errata, RAW. -Polaris
sijigs 07-11-07, 07:28 AM	Yes you're both right. I guess I should've constructed my counter-argument a bit better. I guess I should've said "I think it should be house-ruled not to adjust HPs etc etc because.. "
CrimsonDeath 07-11-07, 01:43 PM	Shambling Mound cheese shouldn't be too bad with Metamorphosis because it only lasts 1 min/level when you turn into a creature. The 5000HP shambling mound would take a couple of minutes to set up (probably with Energy Wall [electric]), and the HP aren't temporary; they come off the bottom when you change back. But then, with a two-level dip into Deepwarden, it might be worth it...
PhaedrusXY 07-15-07, 03:51 AM	Shambling Mound cheese doesn't even work with metamorphic transfer. Their immunity to electricity is Extraordinary, not Supernatural.
sijigs 07-15-07, 04:44 AM	Shambling Mound cheese doesn't even work with metamorphic transfer. Their immunity to electricity is Extraordinary, not Supernatural. LOL. My beef wasn't with metamorphic transfer. It was with how metamorphosis has been excluded from the errata.. and Con + hit point change. The Shambling Mound cheese is just an example of how it could be abused. ;)
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 03:25 PM	Actually, has Polymorph been errataed? I couldn't find it in the PHB errata file...
sijigs 07-15-07, 05:40 PM	Check it out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589497
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 06:15 PM	Check it out: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589497 Conspicuously absent from that list is the polymorph spell itself, which is specifically exempted from the general rules in the Polymorph subschool.
sijigs 07-15-07, 06:28 PM	Conspicuously absent from that list is the polymorph spell itself, which is specifically exempted from the general rules in the Polymorph subschool. It's the polymorph subschool.. it means it encapsulates anything that has the word "morph" on it. eg.. tellytubbymorph. Turn into one and all the subschools rules apply! :P Disclaimer: I haven't had coffee yet.
unusualsuspect 07-15-07, 07:05 PM	It's the polymorph subschool.. it means it encapsulates anything that has the word "morph" on it. eg.. tellytubbymorph. Turn into one and all the subschools rules apply! :P Disclaimer: I haven't had coffee yet. Sorta right, but the details are fuzzy. The "polymorph errata" didn't actually touch Polymorph, Alter Self, Polymorph other, or Shapechange AT ALL. What it did was change the way Wildshape works AND changed all references of "polymorph self" abilities into a new category called (IIRC) Change Shape, which works in many ways the same as wildshape was changed to work. The polymorph subschool was introduced, if memory serves, in the PHB II. I believe it is all-encompassing to a degree (it's rules apply to all spells in the subschool, which includes Polymorph, Alter Self, Polymorph Other, and Shapechange as well as the introduced spells like Troll Shape), but any text in Polymorph overrides the general rules of the polymorph subschool. Metamorphosis, as it happens, was entirely untouched RAW, though some might argue it should have the same sort of "sub rules" in place. Nevertheless, the Shambling Mound cheese works just as well with the new Polymorph Subschool as it did before - Temporary Constitution increases would increase HP as normal, you just wouldn't have a change in HP at the time you polymorphed into the Shambling Mound. Example: Joe the Wizard (con 14) Shapechanges into a Shambling Mound, changing all his physical scores to the Shambling Mound's scores. Joe the Wizard's constitution changes from his base 14 to the Mound's 17, but in line with the polymorph subschool, does NOT change his HP total. Joe then has his friend Bob the Psion cast Energy Wall (electricity) on him. As per the Shambling Mound's Immunity to Electricity, Joe would now gain 1d4 points of temporary constitution, changing his HP total as normal (gaining 2 points in constitution would grant 1 hit point per HD).
sijigs 07-15-07, 07:33 PM	Didn't think of it that way... goes to make my shambling mound
CrimsonDeath 07-15-07, 08:52 PM	It's the polymorph subschool.. it means it encapsulates anything that has the word "morph" on it. eg.. tellytubbymorph. Turn into one and all the subschools rules apply! :P Disclaimer: I haven't had coffee yet. A spell is in the Polymorph subschool only if it was first printed as a part of that subschool, or if it is based on Polymorph or Alter Self. All the subschool rules apply unless they are specifically overridden by the text of the spell itself. And, as I recall, many of the general rules governing the Polymorph subschool is specifically overridden in the text of Alter Self and Polymorph.
unusualsuspect 07-15-07, 09:07 PM	A spell is in the Polymorph subschool only if it was first printed as a part of that subschool, or if it is based on Polymorph or Alter Self. All the subschool rules apply unless they are specifically overridden by the text of the spell itself. And, as I recall, many of the general rules governing the Polymorph subschool is specifically overridden in the text of Alter Self and Polymorph. The "hp doesn't change" subschool rule, however, is never explicitly overridden by Polymorph. This means that if you play with the polymorph subschool, Polymorph (and Shapechange, etc) won't change your HD based on a change in Con score. Metamorphosis, lacking the polymorph subschool, would use the default rules for changes in constitution, and thus would change HP if the Con modifier changed.
CrimsonDeath 07-16-07, 03:14 AM	Good point. Wait. What were we talking about?
Ocom 07-16-07, 03:44 AM	It seems that The Wizards's neglect of psionics is actually a good thing Wizards's :P