Mind Blade = Mind Arrow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mind Blade = Mind Arrow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Karkaras
06-16-07, 12:23 AM I was wondering if the Mind Arrow class feature of the Soul Bow in Complete Psionics is considered as a Mind Blade and therefore affected by feats and other class features (For example, the Weapon Focus feat at Soulknife 1 and the Undead Mind bane from Illumine Soul)
calronmoonflower
06-16-07, 03:14 AM This answer may seem odd, but,

No a mind arrow is not a mind blade, and you can apply mind blade feats to it. :confused:

Mind Arrow (Su): As a free action, you can create a semisolid arrow composed of psychic energy distilled from your mind. If your base attack bonus is high enough to grant you multiple attacks, you can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow.

The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow. For instance, a Medium soulbow materializes an arrow that speeds toward the specified target, and if it hits, deals 1d8 points of damage (crit x3) plus extra damage equal to the soulbow's Wisdom modifier. Soulbows who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind arrows identical to arrows shot from composite longbows appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the arrow's damage (see Table 7-4 and Table 7-5 in the Player's Handbook). You gain the usual benefit to your attack roll from a high Dexterity bonus.

Whether a mind arrow hits or misses, it dissipates 1 round after being shot. A mind arrow is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

A mind arrow can be charged with a psychic strike as if it were a mind blade. If a soulbow has enough soulknife levels to have the knife to the soul ability, that ability also applies to her mind arrows.

You can use feats such as Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot in conjunction with a mind arrow (see bonus feats provided by the class for further guidance). You can also choose mind arrow for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable.

Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows.

Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), you can attempt to attack foes with mind arrows by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you can freely produce mind arrows for a number of rounds equal to your class level before you need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, you must wait 1 round before trying again while you remain within the psionics-negating effect. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2)
Caterpillar
06-16-07, 09:41 AM How exactly does a Soul Bow fire the Mind Arrow anyway? Does he just hold his hand out in any way of his choosing and it just launches outo f his hand. For instance if he were to crouch behind his shield with eyes just over the top of it and his 'firing' arm just to the side palm facing his enemies, would the mind arrow just launch from his palm?
Edymnion
06-16-07, 11:17 AM How exactly does a Soul Bow fire the Mind Arrow anyway? Does he just hold his hand out in any way of his choosing and it just launches outo f his hand. For instance if he were to crouch behind his shield with eyes just over the top of it and his 'firing' arm just to the side palm facing his enemies, would the mind arrow just launch from his palm?Thats up to you. Its flavor text, it could fire from your palm, the back of your hand, or you could manifest an entire psychic energy bow or crossbow the same way that you make a "sword" with a mindblade.
InkBlot
06-16-07, 11:59 AM Although unlike a mindblade, the mindbow wouldn't have any physical aspect. Only the mind arrows would have a physical existance, and you would still only need one hand (unlike two for a real bow).

The iconic soulbow character fires her mind arrows from her palm.
Caterpillar
06-16-07, 12:06 PM I understood already how the soulbow used the mindarrow but my question was how the soulbow 'fired' the arrow. I suppose it's just a matter of flavor. The thoughts I was thinking is whether or not they would have to 'throw' it or if they could just point and zap. Guess it just depends on the person.
InkBlot
06-16-07, 12:08 PM It's not quite a zap. You still need one hand free. If you tie up a soulbow, she can't shoot you anymore. If you tie up a wilder, she can still make your head explode with an energy ray.
Karkaras
06-16-07, 05:24 PM You can use feats such as Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot in conjunction with a mind arrow (see bonus feats provided by the class for further guidance). You can also choose mind arrow for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable.

Ok, then feats that specifically state "mind blade" in its text and other class features don't apply to the Mind Arrow.
InkBlot
06-16-07, 05:38 PM A mind arrow can be charged with a psychic strike as if it were a mind blade. If a soulbow has enough soulknife levels to have the knife to the soul ability, that ability also applies to her mind arrows.
So anything that alters Psychic Strike or Knife To The Soul applies to mind arrows as well. Focused Mind Strike and Swift Mind Strike should work fine. Mind Cleave and Mind Empowerment won't work right, you because the arrow used to drop the creature can't be retrieved.
TheKeyofE
06-16-07, 08:25 PM How exactly does a Soul Bow fire the Mind Arrow anyway? Does he just hold his hand out in any way of his choosing and it just launches outo f his hand. For instance if he were to crouch behind his shield with eyes just over the top of it and his 'firing' arm just to the side palm facing his enemies, would the mind arrow just launch from his palm?

You have to have all your fingers extended and then curl your middle and ring fingers in so they touch your palm, so your hand looks like the famous "I Love You" ASL sign. Then the mind arrow shoots out of your wrist.
InkBlot
06-16-07, 08:37 PM No, you're confusing things. That's the somatic component for entangling ectoplasm.
calronmoonflower
06-16-07, 11:32 PM So anything that alters Psychic Strike or Knife To The Soul applies to mind arrows as well. Focused Mind Strike and Swift Mind Strike should work fine. Mind Cleave and Mind Empowerment won't work right, you because the arrow used to drop the creature can't be retrieved.

What does needing to be retrieved have to do with it?

You can do it with a thrown mind blade just fine.
InkBlot
06-16-07, 11:54 PM Mind Cleave only charges the blade that you used to kill the creature. If you can't get that blade back, then you can't use the charge in it.

Mind Empowerment is just an upgrade of Mind Cleave, so the same problem applies.
Azzy
06-17-07, 01:44 AM You have to have all your fingers extended and then curl your middle and ring fingers in so they touch your palm, so your hand looks like the famous "I Love You" ASL sign. Then the mind arrow shoots out of your wrist.

Don't make me beat you until you're TheKeyofEMinor.
calronmoonflower
06-17-07, 03:37 AM Mind Cleave only charges the blade that you used to kill the creature. If you can't get that blade back, then you can't use the charge in it.

Mind Empowerment is just an upgrade of Mind Cleave, so the same problem applies.

Acually it says "make it fall", so you don't have to kill it.

Also if you throw a mind blade and miis it still retain the psychic strike energy. I do not see any compeling reason for Mind Cleave not to work with a Mind Arrow.

From the SRD Psychic Strike (Su): As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. (Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.)
A mind blade deals this extra damage only once when this ability is called upon, but a soulknife can imbue his mind blade with psychic energy again by taking another move action.
Once a soulknife has prepared his blade for a psychic strike, it holds the extra energy until it is used. Even if the soulknife drops the mind blade (or it otherwise dissipates, such as when it is thrown and misses), it is still imbued with psychic energy when the soulknife next materializes it.
At every four levels beyond 3rd (7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), the extra damage from a soulknife’s psychic strike increases as shown on the Table above.
Stumpy_the_Tall
06-20-07, 07:42 AM Ok since this is being discussed again I figure now is a good time to reask this question from the soulbow opt thread.

Since the majority thinks that the arrow is fired from your palm/hand/finger/whatever, can you use it with TWF?

For it to work you need a weapon in both hands. This isn't a problem because the text states that if needed, another arrow would materialize for another attack. So it seems that it would be taken care of. The shape mind blade also states that you can shape a mind blade into two short swords. So if you were a soulknife of level 5 or higher I don't see why you couldn't split the arrows as well. Finally there are rules for making arrows improvised melee weapons. They are treated as daggers with a -4 I do believe. All that together it seems that it would be ok. Thoughts?

Oh and what about Trikeens? With multiattack or multiweapon fighting can they actually quad weild? O.o
TheKeyofE
06-20-07, 06:11 PM My initial reaction is to say "No" to the TWF, but that's just a knee-jerk reaction. The rules are rather ambiguous, and it's entirely possible you could. Except how would you determine the TWF penalties? Would a mind arrow be a light weapon or one-handed weapon?

As for using mind arrows as melee weapons, why would you want to? A 5th level soulknife has free-draw, so you can manifest your mindblade as a free action and attack. On top of that, a 4th level soulbow can fire in melee with no drawbacks.
forsaken1111
06-21-07, 01:41 AM My initial reaction is to say "No" to the TWF, but that's just a knee-jerk reaction. The rules are rather ambiguous, and it's entirely possible you could. Except how would you determine the TWF penalties? Would a mind arrow be a light weapon or one-handed weapon?

Well it specifically says the arrow is "identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow." so I'd assume they are not considered light weapons. It would be as if you had 4 arms and could fire two longbows with TWF.
Stumpy_the_Tall
06-21-07, 07:21 AM I have to find it again in the rules but it is quoted in the soulbow opt thread as well. When an arrow is wielded as an improvised melee weapon it is considered light.
Caterpillar
06-21-07, 08:51 AM Why would the arrow ever be wielded in the first place when they can just make a new mind blade?
SlanderPanic
06-21-07, 10:16 AM Psychic strike energy is stored in your mind. The mind blade or mind arrow makes contact between your mind and your enemy's mind because the blades and arrows are extensions of your thoughts. This allows you to shove that energy right into them, bypassing their defenses and causing synaptic overload. I'd imagine that draining the energy of consciousness to recharge a mind blade is just using that connection in a different way. You overload the enemy's mind with your own mental energy and then steal some of theirs to replace it.
InkBlot
06-21-07, 02:36 PM The Soulbow class specifically states that you only need one hand to project a mind arrow, so it's theoretically usable with TWF rules. The problem is that it doesn't state if the mind arrow is light or one-handed.

In a game I ran shortly after ComPsi came out, I allowed a player playing a gestalt Xeph soulknife/soulbow//ranger to dual-wield mind arrows. I decided to treat mind arrows as one-handed weapons, because their damage and critical are on-par with a longsword. The player decided to use a shortsword-mindblade for his character's off-hand weapon, and the mindarrow as his on-hand weapon.

Once a soulknife has prepared his blade for a psychic strike, it holds the extra energy until it is used. Even if the soulknife drops the mind blade (or it otherwise dissipates, such as when it is thrown and misses), it is still imbued with psychic energy when the soulknife next materializes it.
Thanks. I had forgotten about that passage.

With that same Xeph soulbow, I allowed Mind Cleave to recharge mind arrows, but I forgot why and assumed it had been a houserule.
SunBolt
07-01-07, 04:29 PM Just want to check and make sure I'm reading this right - the final answer only please.

If you have weapon focus mind blade or weapon specialization mind blade does it effect your mind arrow as if you had weapon focus/specialization mind arrow?

OR

Do you have to take weapon focus mind arrow and weapon focus mind blade separately to get the effect for both?
InkBlot
07-01-07, 04:44 PM If you have weapon focus mind blade or weapon specialization mind blade does it effect your mind arrow as if you had weapon focus/specialization mind arrow?
Yes
Jimmeh42
07-01-07, 09:03 PM the TWF feats are melee only in 3.5 so TWF with mind arrow isnt going to give you much of an advantage...
calronmoonflower
07-01-07, 09:06 PM the TWF feats are melee only in 3.5 so TWF with mind arrow isnt going to give you much of an advantage...

Those feats do not mention melee only off-hand weapons. They work just fine with thrown weapons and should work with mind arrows.
Azzy
07-01-07, 09:26 PM the TWF feats are melee only in 3.5 so TWF with mind arrow isnt going to give you much of an advantage...

Um, no.

As you see by its entry in the SRD, the entries for the Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting), Two-Weapon Defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponDefense), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTwoWeaponFighting) and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterTwoWeaponFighting) feats do not specify that they applies only to melee weapons.

Furthermore, the description entries for crossbows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#crossbowHand) reference the rules for making two-weapon fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting) attacks when using a crossbow in each hand.
Jimmeh42
07-01-07, 09:42 PM now thats interesting, i swear i read that somewhere, but now i go to the SRD and my PHB and it reads as i always remembered it...till i wanted a TWF ninja/master thrower
I'm sorry for the confusion i may have caused, now i just have to figure out where i read 'melee' in the TWF feats...
Senshu
07-01-07, 10:42 PM i dont know if this question is already up, but for the question of how a mind arrow is fired....may i point you to this AMV made form a very cliche song?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPgz_VAb6CU
Azzy
07-01-07, 11:16 PM now thats interesting, i swear i read that somewhere, but now i go to the SRD and my PHB and it reads as i always remembered it...till i wanted a TWF ninja/master thrower
I'm sorry for the confusion i may have caused, now i just have to figure out where i read 'melee' in the TWF feats...

Meh, this is the sort of thing that we're all guilty of at some point or another. :)
forsaken1111
07-01-07, 11:21 PM Meh, this is the sort of thing that we're all guilty of at some point or another. :)

Yeah true that.
TheKeyofE
07-02-07, 12:16 AM i dont know if this question is already up, but for the question of how a mind arrow is fired....may i point you to this AMV made form a very cliche song?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPgz_VAb6CU

No, no, no...THIS (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xph1qLGVgVg) is the original mind arrow.
Jimmeh42
07-02-07, 03:18 AM i still find it strange that you can use manyshot with mind arrows, but i guess its not unreasonable, especially since you can used ranged pin and that feat is far sillyer than manyshot...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karkaras 06-16-07, 12:23 AM	I was wondering if the Mind Arrow class feature of the Soul Bow in Complete Psionics is considered as a Mind Blade and therefore affected by feats and other class features (For example, the Weapon Focus feat at Soulknife 1 and the Undead Mind bane from Illumine Soul)
calronmoonflower 06-16-07, 03:14 AM	This answer may seem odd, but, No a mind arrow is not a mind blade, and you can apply mind blade feats to it. :confused: Mind Arrow (Su): As a free action, you can create a semisolid arrow composed of psychic energy distilled from your mind. If your base attack bonus is high enough to grant you multiple attacks, you can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow. The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow. For instance, a Medium soulbow materializes an arrow that speeds toward the specified target, and if it hits, deals 1d8 points of damage (crit x3) plus extra damage equal to the soulbow's Wisdom modifier. Soulbows who are smaller or larger than Medium create mind arrows identical to arrows shot from composite longbows appropriate for their size, with a corresponding change to the arrow's damage (see Table 7-4 and Table 7-5 in the Player's Handbook). You gain the usual benefit to your attack roll from a high Dexterity bonus. Whether a mind arrow hits or misses, it dissipates 1 round after being shot. A mind arrow is considered a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A mind arrow can be charged with a psychic strike as if it were a mind blade. If a soulbow has enough soulknife levels to have the knife to the soul ability, that ability also applies to her mind arrows. You can use feats such as Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot in conjunction with a mind arrow (see bonus feats provided by the class for further guidance). You can also choose mind arrow for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable. Your mind arrows improve as you gain higher levels. At 3rd level, a mind arrow gains a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls, and at 7th level the bonus improves to +2. These enhancement bonuses stack with previous enhancement bonuses gained earlier for your soulknife class levels. Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus. If your return to your soulknife class progression, these mind arrow enhancement bonuses on attack and damage are cumulative bonuses on top of any new enhancement bonuses gained, and they benefit both your mind blade and mind arrows. Even in places where psionic effects do not normally function (such as within a null psionics field), you can attempt to attack foes with mind arrows by making a DC 20 Will save. On a successful save, you can freely produce mind arrows for a number of rounds equal to your class level before you need to check again. On an unsuccessful attempt, you must wait 1 round before trying again while you remain within the psionics-negating effect. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2)
Caterpillar 06-16-07, 09:41 AM	How exactly does a Soul Bow fire the Mind Arrow anyway? Does he just hold his hand out in any way of his choosing and it just launches outo f his hand. For instance if he were to crouch behind his shield with eyes just over the top of it and his 'firing' arm just to the side palm facing his enemies, would the mind arrow just launch from his palm?
Edymnion 06-16-07, 11:17 AM	How exactly does a Soul Bow fire the Mind Arrow anyway? Does he just hold his hand out in any way of his choosing and it just launches outo f his hand. For instance if he were to crouch behind his shield with eyes just over the top of it and his 'firing' arm just to the side palm facing his enemies, would the mind arrow just launch from his palm?Thats up to you. Its flavor text, it could fire from your palm, the back of your hand, or you could manifest an entire psychic energy bow or crossbow the same way that you make a "sword" with a mindblade.
InkBlot 06-16-07, 11:59 AM	Although unlike a mindblade, the mindbow wouldn't have any physical aspect. Only the mind arrows would have a physical existance, and you would still only need one hand (unlike two for a real bow). The iconic soulbow character fires her mind arrows from her palm.
Caterpillar 06-16-07, 12:06 PM	I understood already how the soulbow used the mindarrow but my question was how the soulbow 'fired' the arrow. I suppose it's just a matter of flavor. The thoughts I was thinking is whether or not they would have to 'throw' it or if they could just point and zap. Guess it just depends on the person.
InkBlot 06-16-07, 12:08 PM	It's not quite a zap. You still need one hand free. If you tie up a soulbow, she can't shoot you anymore. If you tie up a wilder, she can still make your head explode with an energy ray.
Karkaras 06-16-07, 05:24 PM	You can use feats such as Point Blank Shot or Precise Shot in conjunction with a mind arrow (see bonus feats provided by the class for further guidance). You can also choose mind arrow for feats requiring a specific weapon choice, such as Weapon Specialization. Powers or spells that upgrade weapons can be used on a mind blade. Any feats previously requiring specific weapon choice (such as Weapon Specialization) for your mind blade also apply to your mind arrow, if applicable. Ok, then feats that specifically state "mind blade" in its text and other class features don't apply to the Mind Arrow.
InkBlot 06-16-07, 05:38 PM	A mind arrow can be charged with a psychic strike as if it were a mind blade. If a soulbow has enough soulknife levels to have the knife to the soul ability, that ability also applies to her mind arrows. So anything that alters Psychic Strike or Knife To The Soul applies to mind arrows as well. Focused Mind Strike and Swift Mind Strike should work fine. Mind Cleave and Mind Empowerment won't work right, you because the arrow used to drop the creature can't be retrieved.
TheKeyofE 06-16-07, 08:25 PM	How exactly does a Soul Bow fire the Mind Arrow anyway? Does he just hold his hand out in any way of his choosing and it just launches outo f his hand. For instance if he were to crouch behind his shield with eyes just over the top of it and his 'firing' arm just to the side palm facing his enemies, would the mind arrow just launch from his palm? You have to have all your fingers extended and then curl your middle and ring fingers in so they touch your palm, so your hand looks like the famous "I Love You" ASL sign. Then the mind arrow shoots out of your wrist.
InkBlot 06-16-07, 08:37 PM	No, you're confusing things. That's the somatic component for entangling ectoplasm.
calronmoonflower 06-16-07, 11:32 PM	So anything that alters Psychic Strike or Knife To The Soul applies to mind arrows as well. Focused Mind Strike and Swift Mind Strike should work fine. Mind Cleave and Mind Empowerment won't work right, you because the arrow used to drop the creature can't be retrieved. What does needing to be retrieved have to do with it? You can do it with a thrown mind blade just fine.
InkBlot 06-16-07, 11:54 PM	Mind Cleave only charges the blade that you used to kill the creature. If you can't get that blade back, then you can't use the charge in it. Mind Empowerment is just an upgrade of Mind Cleave, so the same problem applies.
Azzy 06-17-07, 01:44 AM	You have to have all your fingers extended and then curl your middle and ring fingers in so they touch your palm, so your hand looks like the famous "I Love You" ASL sign. Then the mind arrow shoots out of your wrist. Don't make me beat you until you're TheKeyofEMinor.
calronmoonflower 06-17-07, 03:37 AM	Mind Cleave only charges the blade that you used to kill the creature. If you can't get that blade back, then you can't use the charge in it. Mind Empowerment is just an upgrade of Mind Cleave, so the same problem applies. Acually it says "make it fall", so you don't have to kill it. Also if you throw a mind blade and miis it still retain the psychic strike energy. I do not see any compeling reason for Mind Cleave not to work with a Mind Arrow. From the SRD Psychic Strike (Su): As a move action, a soulknife of 3rd level or higher can imbue his mind blade with destructive psychic energy. This effect deals an extra 1d8 points of damage to the next living, nonmindless target he successfully hits with a melee attack (or ranged attack, if he is using the throw mind blade ability). Creatures immune to mind-affecting effects are immune to psychic strike damage. (Unlike the rogue’s sneak attack, the psychic strike is not precision damage and can affect creatures otherwise immune to extra damage from critical hits or more than 30 feet away, provided they are living, nonmindless creatures not immune to mind-affecting effects.) A mind blade deals this extra damage only once when this ability is called upon, but a soulknife can imbue his mind blade with psychic energy again by taking another move action. Once a soulknife has prepared his blade for a psychic strike, it holds the extra energy until it is used. Even if the soulknife drops the mind blade (or it otherwise dissipates, such as when it is thrown and misses), it is still imbued with psychic energy when the soulknife next materializes it. At every four levels beyond 3rd (7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th), the extra damage from a soulknife’s psychic strike increases as shown on the Table above.
Stumpy_the_Tall 06-20-07, 07:42 AM	Ok since this is being discussed again I figure now is a good time to reask this question from the soulbow opt thread. Since the majority thinks that the arrow is fired from your palm/hand/finger/whatever, can you use it with TWF? For it to work you need a weapon in both hands. This isn't a problem because the text states that if needed, another arrow would materialize for another attack. So it seems that it would be taken care of. The shape mind blade also states that you can shape a mind blade into two short swords. So if you were a soulknife of level 5 or higher I don't see why you couldn't split the arrows as well. Finally there are rules for making arrows improvised melee weapons. They are treated as daggers with a -4 I do believe. All that together it seems that it would be ok. Thoughts? Oh and what about Trikeens? With multiattack or multiweapon fighting can they actually quad weild? O.o
TheKeyofE 06-20-07, 06:11 PM	My initial reaction is to say "No" to the TWF, but that's just a knee-jerk reaction. The rules are rather ambiguous, and it's entirely possible you could. Except how would you determine the TWF penalties? Would a mind arrow be a light weapon or one-handed weapon? As for using mind arrows as melee weapons, why would you want to? A 5th level soulknife has free-draw, so you can manifest your mindblade as a free action and attack. On top of that, a 4th level soulbow can fire in melee with no drawbacks.
forsaken1111 06-21-07, 01:41 AM	My initial reaction is to say "No" to the TWF, but that's just a knee-jerk reaction. The rules are rather ambiguous, and it's entirely possible you could. Except how would you determine the TWF penalties? Would a mind arrow be a light weapon or one-handed weapon? Well it specifically says the arrow is "identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow." so I'd assume they are not considered light weapons. It would be as if you had 4 arms and could fire two longbows with TWF.
Stumpy_the_Tall 06-21-07, 07:21 AM	I have to find it again in the rules but it is quoted in the soulbow opt thread as well. When an arrow is wielded as an improvised melee weapon it is considered light.
Caterpillar 06-21-07, 08:51 AM	Why would the arrow ever be wielded in the first place when they can just make a new mind blade?
SlanderPanic 06-21-07, 10:16 AM	Psychic strike energy is stored in your mind. The mind blade or mind arrow makes contact between your mind and your enemy's mind because the blades and arrows are extensions of your thoughts. This allows you to shove that energy right into them, bypassing their defenses and causing synaptic overload. I'd imagine that draining the energy of consciousness to recharge a mind blade is just using that connection in a different way. You overload the enemy's mind with your own mental energy and then steal some of theirs to replace it.
InkBlot 06-21-07, 02:36 PM	The Soulbow class specifically states that you only need one hand to project a mind arrow, so it's theoretically usable with TWF rules. The problem is that it doesn't state if the mind arrow is light or one-handed. In a game I ran shortly after ComPsi came out, I allowed a player playing a gestalt Xeph soulknife/soulbow//ranger to dual-wield mind arrows. I decided to treat mind arrows as one-handed weapons, because their damage and critical are on-par with a longsword. The player decided to use a shortsword-mindblade for his character's off-hand weapon, and the mindarrow as his on-hand weapon. Once a soulknife has prepared his blade for a psychic strike, it holds the extra energy until it is used. Even if the soulknife drops the mind blade (or it otherwise dissipates, such as when it is thrown and misses), it is still imbued with psychic energy when the soulknife next materializes it. Thanks. I had forgotten about that passage. With that same Xeph soulbow, I allowed Mind Cleave to recharge mind arrows, but I forgot why and assumed it had been a houserule.
SunBolt 07-01-07, 04:29 PM	Just want to check and make sure I'm reading this right - the final answer only please. If you have weapon focus mind blade or weapon specialization mind blade does it effect your mind arrow as if you had weapon focus/specialization mind arrow? OR Do you have to take weapon focus mind arrow and weapon focus mind blade separately to get the effect for both?
InkBlot 07-01-07, 04:44 PM	If you have weapon focus mind blade or weapon specialization mind blade does it effect your mind arrow as if you had weapon focus/specialization mind arrow? Yes
Jimmeh42 07-01-07, 09:03 PM	the TWF feats are melee only in 3.5 so TWF with mind arrow isnt going to give you much of an advantage...
calronmoonflower 07-01-07, 09:06 PM	the TWF feats are melee only in 3.5 so TWF with mind arrow isnt going to give you much of an advantage... Those feats do not mention melee only off-hand weapons. They work just fine with thrown weapons and should work with mind arrows.
Azzy 07-01-07, 09:26 PM	the TWF feats are melee only in 3.5 so TWF with mind arrow isnt going to give you much of an advantage... Um, no. As you see by its entry in the SRD, the entries for the Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting), Two-Weapon Defense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponDefense), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTwoWeaponFighting) and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greaterTwoWeaponFighting) feats do not specify that they applies only to melee weapons. Furthermore, the description entries for crossbows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#crossbowHand) reference the rules for making two-weapon fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting) attacks when using a crossbow in each hand.
Jimmeh42 07-01-07, 09:42 PM	now thats interesting, i swear i read that somewhere, but now i go to the SRD and my PHB and it reads as i always remembered it...till i wanted a TWF ninja/master thrower I'm sorry for the confusion i may have caused, now i just have to figure out where i read 'melee' in the TWF feats...
Senshu 07-01-07, 10:42 PM	i dont know if this question is already up, but for the question of how a mind arrow is fired....may i point you to this AMV made form a very cliche song? http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPgz_VAb6CU
Azzy 07-01-07, 11:16 PM	now thats interesting, i swear i read that somewhere, but now i go to the SRD and my PHB and it reads as i always remembered it...till i wanted a TWF ninja/master thrower I'm sorry for the confusion i may have caused, now i just have to figure out where i read 'melee' in the TWF feats... Meh, this is the sort of thing that we're all guilty of at some point or another. :)
forsaken1111 07-01-07, 11:21 PM	Meh, this is the sort of thing that we're all guilty of at some point or another. :) Yeah true that.
TheKeyofE 07-02-07, 12:16 AM	i dont know if this question is already up, but for the question of how a mind arrow is fired....may i point you to this AMV made form a very cliche song? http://youtube.com/watch?v=bPgz_VAb6CU No, no, no...THIS (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xph1qLGVgVg) is the original mind arrow.
Jimmeh42 07-02-07, 03:18 AM	i still find it strange that you can use manyshot with mind arrows, but i guess its not unreasonable, especially since you can used ranged pin and that feat is far sillyer than manyshot...