Mind Seed and Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mind Seed and Monsters [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kam3ham3ha
04-17-07, 10:32 PM I'm not sure if this belongs in the Epic section or here so I'm erring on the side of psionics because it's a psi specific question.

When you mind seed a creature which has racial hit dice how do you figure out what the resultant creature is and its ECL. All the power says is that it becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power, but 8 levels lower. You have their physical abilities and yout mental stats and abilities.

Lets take an Ogre Mage for example.

An Ogre Mage is Mindseeded by a 34th level psion. Do we have. . .

A). A 26th level psion with all the abilities of an Ogre Mage but no racial HD.
B). A 26th level psion with all the SU and EX abilities of the Ogre Mage but no spell like abilities and no racial HD
C). As B but with Racial HD making its CL 31?
D). As A but with racial HD making it CL 31
E). As A but with ONLY Racial HD (the worlds roughest 5HD creature)
F). As B but with ONlY Racial HD (the world's second roughest 5HD creature).

If the answer is B how do you figure level adjustment because you'll be missing some of the abilities of the creature.

I tried to compare magic jar for possible answers but it just muddied the water.

Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

-Allen
saidin0111
04-18-07, 12:05 AM It seems to be "C," but there, unfortunately, is no good way to adjucate a new ECL or LA, the only thing that you can do, is to compare the quick and dirty resulting ECL with things of similar ECL's (ECL-2, ECL-1, ECL, ECL+1, and ECL+2) to determine what it's new ECL should really be
Kam3ham3ha
04-18-07, 02:57 AM Thats what I'm leaning towards too, but it leaves the odd result of a creature who might be mising feats for these racial HD as i believe feats are mental abilities. Right? Wrong? I guess it's something that easily cleared up with psychic reformation.

I want to stat up these pc/npcs and use them in game for some pre-epic people to have to deal with. We do a lot of epic PC's creating situations that lower parties have to deal with run by alternating GMs.

The character is about to go into semi retierment as a background politics NPC who may eventually become the next BBEG.

I think mind seed is a cool way to make players in a campaign paranoid. Stealing a little bit from Jericho (old Teen Titan fame) and Doro from Octavia Butler's "Wild Seed" and "Mind of my Mind". The interesting thing is that the resulting characters will vary from (and possibly even grow to oppose) eac other over time.
munin
04-18-07, 08:33 AM An ogre mage is a Large Giant, not a Medium or smaller Humanoid, so can't be the target of mind seed. But your question is valid for other Medium or smaller Humanoids with racial Hit Dice (bugbear, gnoll, locathah, merfolk, etc.).

I recommend you use the rules for true mind switch as if manifested by yourself with 8 lost levels. You do not gain the target's Hit Dice, racial feats, supernatural or spell-like abilities, etc., but you do gain Str/Dex/Con, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary special attacks and qualities, etc.
Kam3ham3ha
04-18-07, 10:29 AM Good catch. I hadn't noticed that. I had just pulled Ogre Mage off the top of my head. This solves half the problem.

I guess you'd wind up just using a modified level adjustment and not count racial hit dice.

Now for another oddity. A sorcerer psion (or psion with rank in UMD and some scrools) uses simulacrum on himself and then mindseeds the simulacrum. The simulacrum is a valid target as it's the same type as the original creature. Can the resulting creature now gain levels, or is it stuck with no advancement? Do you retain control of the creature as control seems to be something inherent to the spell and not the creature.

This might present an interesting way of doing Doctor Doom style clones that catch players off guard. I don't want to use have the character use true mind switch unless it's absolutely necessary.
AntiDjinn
04-18-07, 12:23 PM The other thing is the subject upon germination is a separate character. You don't need to worry about what your new ECL will be because the new being will not be a PC under your control, it will be an NPC under DM control. If you want to control a mind seed then you need to dominate it. In most cases the seed will be sympathetic to its progenitor (they share memories and history), but not always; if you are self-serving or psychotic and hate all life then it will be too and won't like you more than anyone else.

Most of the time you mind seed won't ever be a threat to you upon germination. It is 8 character levels lower than you; so low that you would not even earn XP for killing it. But if you seed a body with high physical capabilities it could pose an actual threat to you and you could end up creating your own worst enemy.
Kam3ham3ha
04-18-07, 01:12 PM This is true in most cases, but if your DM allows you to play one of the seeded characters if your original character dies or for the fun of arguing with a version of yourself that you've come to hate then the issue needs to be resolved.

These are things that never come up in most peoples miniatures/combat driven games but in ours which is very RP driven (almost like a White Wolf type of campaign) and has been going on for over 19 years with generations of high and low level characters and multiple DMs, odd roleplaying opportunities happen often because everyone can be trusted to do what's in the best interest of the tale and everyone else fun.

The current question on the table however is what happens when you seed a simulacrum. What is the nature of the resulting creature. I'm not worried whether it's a threat or not, just how does that creature function in terms of game rules regardless to its status of PC or NPC.
munin
04-19-07, 08:56 AM A simulacrum is an illusion, but because it's a Shadow illusion, it's partially real. I think it's real enough to have mind seed manifested on it, but not real enough to be a PC. It doesn't have enough independence to gain experience, even with a different mind imposed on it.

I think the mind seed levels replace the simulacrum's levels, but it's still a simulacrum and remains under the caster's control. A simulacrum can't advance itself, but you can "advance" it by mind seeding it (the same way you could manifest any other buff on it).

Used in this way, mind seed might not be Evil, since the simulacrum is an illusion. House call, depending on how real you think shadow illusions are.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kam3ham3ha 04-17-07, 10:32 PM	I'm not sure if this belongs in the Epic section or here so I'm erring on the side of psionics because it's a psi specific question. When you mind seed a creature which has racial hit dice how do you figure out what the resultant creature is and its ECL. All the power says is that it becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power, but 8 levels lower. You have their physical abilities and yout mental stats and abilities. Lets take an Ogre Mage for example. An Ogre Mage is Mindseeded by a 34th level psion. Do we have. . . A). A 26th level psion with all the abilities of an Ogre Mage but no racial HD. B). A 26th level psion with all the SU and EX abilities of the Ogre Mage but no spell like abilities and no racial HD C). As B but with Racial HD making its CL 31? D). As A but with racial HD making it CL 31 E). As A but with ONLY Racial HD (the worlds roughest 5HD creature) F). As B but with ONlY Racial HD (the world's second roughest 5HD creature). If the answer is B how do you figure level adjustment because you'll be missing some of the abilities of the creature. I tried to compare magic jar for possible answers but it just muddied the water. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. -Allen
saidin0111 04-18-07, 12:05 AM	It seems to be "C," but there, unfortunately, is no good way to adjucate a new ECL or LA, the only thing that you can do, is to compare the quick and dirty resulting ECL with things of similar ECL's (ECL-2, ECL-1, ECL, ECL+1, and ECL+2) to determine what it's new ECL should really be
Kam3ham3ha 04-18-07, 02:57 AM	Thats what I'm leaning towards too, but it leaves the odd result of a creature who might be mising feats for these racial HD as i believe feats are mental abilities. Right? Wrong? I guess it's something that easily cleared up with psychic reformation. I want to stat up these pc/npcs and use them in game for some pre-epic people to have to deal with. We do a lot of epic PC's creating situations that lower parties have to deal with run by alternating GMs. The character is about to go into semi retierment as a background politics NPC who may eventually become the next BBEG. I think mind seed is a cool way to make players in a campaign paranoid. Stealing a little bit from Jericho (old Teen Titan fame) and Doro from Octavia Butler's "Wild Seed" and "Mind of my Mind". The interesting thing is that the resulting characters will vary from (and possibly even grow to oppose) eac other over time.
munin 04-18-07, 08:33 AM	An ogre mage is a Large Giant, not a Medium or smaller Humanoid, so can't be the target of mind seed. But your question is valid for other Medium or smaller Humanoids with racial Hit Dice (bugbear, gnoll, locathah, merfolk, etc.). I recommend you use the rules for true mind switch as if manifested by yourself with 8 lost levels. You do not gain the target's Hit Dice, racial feats, supernatural or spell-like abilities, etc., but you do gain Str/Dex/Con, natural armor, natural attacks, extraordinary special attacks and qualities, etc.
Kam3ham3ha 04-18-07, 10:29 AM	Good catch. I hadn't noticed that. I had just pulled Ogre Mage off the top of my head. This solves half the problem. I guess you'd wind up just using a modified level adjustment and not count racial hit dice. Now for another oddity. A sorcerer psion (or psion with rank in UMD and some scrools) uses simulacrum on himself and then mindseeds the simulacrum. The simulacrum is a valid target as it's the same type as the original creature. Can the resulting creature now gain levels, or is it stuck with no advancement? Do you retain control of the creature as control seems to be something inherent to the spell and not the creature. This might present an interesting way of doing Doctor Doom style clones that catch players off guard. I don't want to use have the character use true mind switch unless it's absolutely necessary.
AntiDjinn 04-18-07, 12:23 PM	The other thing is the subject upon germination is a separate character. You don't need to worry about what your new ECL will be because the new being will not be a PC under your control, it will be an NPC under DM control. If you want to control a mind seed then you need to dominate it. In most cases the seed will be sympathetic to its progenitor (they share memories and history), but not always; if you are self-serving or psychotic and hate all life then it will be too and won't like you more than anyone else. Most of the time you mind seed won't ever be a threat to you upon germination. It is 8 character levels lower than you; so low that you would not even earn XP for killing it. But if you seed a body with high physical capabilities it could pose an actual threat to you and you could end up creating your own worst enemy.
Kam3ham3ha 04-18-07, 01:12 PM	This is true in most cases, but if your DM allows you to play one of the seeded characters if your original character dies or for the fun of arguing with a version of yourself that you've come to hate then the issue needs to be resolved. These are things that never come up in most peoples miniatures/combat driven games but in ours which is very RP driven (almost like a White Wolf type of campaign) and has been going on for over 19 years with generations of high and low level characters and multiple DMs, odd roleplaying opportunities happen often because everyone can be trusted to do what's in the best interest of the tale and everyone else fun. The current question on the table however is what happens when you seed a simulacrum. What is the nature of the resulting creature. I'm not worried whether it's a threat or not, just how does that creature function in terms of game rules regardless to its status of PC or NPC.
munin 04-19-07, 08:56 AM	A simulacrum is an illusion, but because it's a Shadow illusion, it's partially real. I think it's real enough to have mind seed manifested on it, but not real enough to be a PC. It doesn't have enough independence to gain experience, even with a different mind imposed on it. I think the mind seed levels replace the simulacrum's levels, but it's still a simulacrum and remains under the caster's control. A simulacrum can't advance itself, but you can "advance" it by mind seeding it (the same way you could manifest any other buff on it). Used in this way, mind seed might not be Evil, since the simulacrum is an illusion. House call, depending on how real you think shadow illusions are.