Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sarlax 05-24-07, 01:56 PM	Mind Switch: You gain the type of your assumed body. Mind Seed: One touched Medium or smaller humanoid ... You impress the totality of your psyche into a subject’s subconscious. I don't know if this has been covered, hence the post. It looks like Mind Switching with a target will allow a humanoid to Mind Seed a creature of any type (which is susceptible to mind-affecting abilities).
kyeudo 05-24-07, 05:43 PM	Odd idea, but sounds resonable for making a dragon into a carbon copy of your mind. Don't know why you'd want to do that, since keeping a dragon under control long enough for it to completely change to you is ridiculously hard.
CrimsonDeath 05-24-07, 05:57 PM	Like, "I'm going to mind-switch with that War Troll, and then when he's in my body, I'm going to mind-seed him"?
InkBlot 05-24-07, 06:01 PM	More like "I'm going to mind switch with that War Troll, infiltrate his tribe, mind seed enough of them to lead a coup against the War Troll chief, and then march my small army of psychic War Trolls on the capital Karnath! I'll be unstopable! Muahahahahah!"
AntiDjinn 05-24-07, 06:21 PM	Mind Seed says: Target: One touched medium or smaller humanoid. It does not say: One creature of your type. Even a dragon manifester may not target another dragon. So if you mind switch into a dragon, an outsider, or Hello Kitty, and then open your copy of the XPH, Mind Seed will still say it targets a medium or smaller humanoid.
The Livewire 05-24-07, 08:20 PM	Ok, so if I mind switch into a dragon, seed the dragon in my (Humanoid) body. Wait a week then switch back/dispel the effect, will there be a copy of me in the dragon?
Think0028 05-24-07, 09:19 PM	So if you mind switch into a dragon, an outsider, or Hello Kitty, and then open your copy of the XPH, Mind Seed will still say it targets a medium or smaller humanoid. You don't mind seed another dragon, you mind seed the dragon that's now in your body.
AntiDjinn 05-24-07, 09:46 PM	Which will accomplish what, except to replace the dragon personality with a psion personality that is not under your control (explicitly stated in Mind Seed) but is based off a reduced version of you? It might be sympathetic to your cause, but it is not a PC, hireling, follower, thrall, or any such. It is a character in its own right under the control of the DM and begins immediately to diverge from the point of its germination. You would be better off dominating the dragon and just pushing the DC and duration up to the point where it is more or less under your thumb permanently.
Sarlax 05-25-07, 12:57 AM	It is a character in its own right under the control of the DM and begins immediately to diverge from the point of its germination. This case is exactly identical to using Mind Seed on a humanoid without first using Mind Switch. You're just arguing against the use of Mind Seed in general. Since the duplicate has your personality, it's still probably going to be helpful to have, and the Mind Seed trick helps. You can have dragons, beholders, or mind flayers with goals identical to your own (and the abilities of at least an 8th-level psion). Better still, Switch and Seed an aboleth. It will obtain your memories and personality, which will be passed to all of its offspring. As far as controlling the duplicate: subject yourself to all of the mind-warping stuff you like to distort your own personality (Modify Memory, Programmed Amnesia, Mindrape, etc.). You can voluntarily fail your saving throw so that your identity changes into that of a being who will completely obey any creature which created you through the use of the Mind Seed power.
Choon 05-25-07, 01:08 AM	As far as controlling the duplicate: subject yourself to all of the mind-warping stuff you like to distort your own personality (Modify Memory, Programmed Amnesia, Mindrape, etc.). You can voluntarily fail your saving throw so that your identity changes into that of a being who will completely obey any creature which created you through the use of the Mind Seed power. But would you retain enough of yourself to know to turn the real you back to normal once all the necessary modifications were made? I don't know.... I guess that would work, but it's really far out there. Props for being unique...:w00t:
Sarlax 05-25-07, 01:14 AM	But would you retain enough of yourself to know to turn the real you back to normal once all the necessary modifications were made? Why would you want or need to change back? Consider this: I am now my original self (Self-A). Using powers or spells (say Programmed Amnesia) I become Self-B. The only thing different about Self-B is that Self-B will obey any creature who creates Self-B through the Mind Seed power. There's nothing wrong with being Self-B. You're identical to your original self, except that now you'll obey psions who make you with Mind Seed - but since you are the original and are not a mind seed, that doesn't matter to you. It's really only a problem for your duplicates, since they will inherit that trait from you (but they won't mind, since it's their personality).
AntiDjinn 05-25-07, 03:51 AM	I'm not arguing against Mind Seed, just pointing out the text it contains and arguing against the notion that it will automatically be on your side. It may or may not be helpful, it is a DM call because he controls the character. If you have always had the goal of taking the throne and making yourself emperor then the seed probably shares these goals (at least initially) but that doesn't mean it wants to put you on the throne; it will want the throne for itself (you don't want it for another, even another version of you, so why should it?). In some cases you may be making your own worst enemy or creating security problems for yourself. It knows everything you knew at the moment the power was manifested, but is 8 levels lower. So if your enemies can't beat your Will save or defenses, they can target your seed and learn all your secrets. Yes, you can Dominate your own seed; it is so low level compared to you that you would not even get XP for killing it. But if you are going to have to dominate it, why not just open with that on the dragon? If you think you can beat the Will save of your dragon target with Mind Switch (6th level, Mind-Affecting, Will negates, 100 XP) and again with Mind Seed (8th level, Mind-Affecting, Evil, Will Negates, no DC augmentation, 3000 XP) then why not just open with Domination (4th level, Mind-Affecting, Will negates, augmentable for type, DC, and days of duration)? You can boost the DC of Domination higher than Mind Seed, you only allow a single saving throw, spend no XP, and have control of a dragon at full dice instead of one 8 levels lower than your current ML.
cymbolik 05-25-07, 05:07 AM	Why would you want or need to change back? Consider this: I am now my original self (Self-A). Using powers or spells (say Programmed Amnesia) I become Self-B. The only thing different about Self-B is that Self-B will obey any creature who creates Self-B through the Mind Seed power. There's nothing wrong with being Self-B. You're identical to your original self, except that now you'll obey psions who make you with Mind Seed - but since you are the original and are not a mind seed, that doesn't matter to you. It's really only a problem for your duplicates, since they will inherit that trait from you (but they won't mind, since it's their personality). At most Self-B would be aware that it had the intention of manifesting mind seed moments before, but when it comes into cognition it will believe itself to be the original, since it is an exact (mental) replica of Self-A, completely negating your personality trait. Possibly the only way to convince it otherwise would be to hold a mirror up to it but even so, never underestimate the mind's ability to deny the truth. Imagine someone who speaks and behaves identically to you coming up to you and saying that you're an intellectual clone of them and, as such, you are forced to obey that person's every command. Now imagine your response. I predict the use of a particular four letter word in that response.
The Livewire 05-25-07, 08:40 AM	For (twisted) uses of Mindseed, I strongly recomment Lisa Smedman's Venom Trillogy. Realms Specific fiction, but the first heavy psionic book
Sarlax 05-25-07, 09:36 AM	At most Self-B would be aware that it had the intention of manifesting mind seed moments before, but when it comes into cognition it will believe itself to be the original, since it is an exact (mental) replica of Self-A, completely negating your personality trait. You manifest Mind Seed after you have become Self-B. This makes your duplicate have a Self-B personality as well. Imagine someone who speaks and behaves identically to you coming up to you and saying that you're an intellectual clone of them and, as such, you are forced to obey that person's every command. Now imagine your response. That's not how it would be. The duplicate has perfect knowledge of everything the original knew and thought at the moment of manifestation As the Self-B duplicate, you'd be waiting around to meet the original so you could follow its orders. Then along comes an individual who is the original. This individual cannot fail any testing of its identity because it is the one. As an 8th-level telepath (at least), you probably have a lot of options to verify the original's identity. Just use Read Thoughts or Mind Probe (if you're 9th as a duplicate) on the original, who will of course voluntarily fail its saving throw. It shouldn't have to be said, but if you're altering yourself to have Self-B personality type prior to manifesting Mind Seed, you will of course design the Self-B personality to accept the original as its creator. The issue of disobeying the original won't come up.
cymbolik 05-25-07, 10:40 AM	Self-A: "I manifest mind seed on my target." Manifestation ends and a week goes by. Self-A: "I manifested mind seed on my target a week ago." Self-B: "I manifested mind seed on my target a moment ago. That's odd...Where is my target? I need to find my target...Who are you, and why do you look like me?!" Self-A: "I don't look anything like you. I look like the me you believe yourself to be." I know it's a bit of an abstract thought-process, but try and wrap your head around the concept of divergences. It's a mental replica, which means that at the end of the manifestation it means that Self-B is thinking exactly what you are, i.e. that it is the original manifester and that it's just finished manifesting mind seed. It has no concept of being the replica because it's identity is your identity and it doesn't believe itself to be a copy because Self-A doesn't percieve itself to be a copy. It even thinks, when it comes to cognition, that it still looks exactly the same way Self-A does (think of the way Neo still has hair when goes back into the Matrix - that whole residual imagery thing), until it starts noticing strange things about its new body, but given the power of the mind to deny everything it depends on how likely Self-A was prepared to accept that it's actually a mind seed of Self-A. Would Self-A really believe that it was mind seeded by Self-A, or would it disregard that statement, since it believes itself to be the original? I don't feel that I'm explaining this as effectively as I could do, but at its core what I'm driving at is the power of personal identity and the ego to force the mind to cope with challenging situations, even to change old ways of thinking to adapt and cope with trauma. Finding out you're a clone certainly qualifies as trauma. It would be best to mind seed someone and then use the programmed amnesia or whatever to make the mind seed subservient. Building it into your own personality is flawed and is highly unlikely to work. Essentially you'd have to prove to the mind seed that it is, in fact, a mind seed, since the power itself doesn't make it aware of this fact.
Sarlax 05-25-07, 11:23 AM	Self-A: "I manifest mind seed on my target." The first problem may be that you're using my terminology incorrectly. Self-A isn't the one who manifests the Mind Seed. Self-A is what the psion was like before he altered himself to accept the commands of his mind seed creator. After the alteration, Self-A ceases to exist. The single psion, before any Mind Seed is used, is Self-B (the variant, creator-obeying personality). Self-B #1 then uses Mind Seed on some mook, who then becomes Self-B #2, the weak duplicate of Self-B #1, both of whom will obey any orders given by their creator. Since only Self-B #2 has a creator (#1), #2 will obey all of #1's orders. It's a mental replica, which means that at the end of the manifestation it means that Self-B is thinking exactly what you are, i.e. that it is the original manifester and that it's just finished manifesting mind seed. And it instantly disabuses itself of this notion. It's not stupid. It's an 7th-level telepath. It is just as smart as the original. It will instantly be aware it is the mindseed: It has lost a week of time, it's in a new body, it's 8 levels lower than it used to be, and by means of Programmed Amnesia, has a personality specifically designed to accept its role as a seeded entity. Finding out you're a clone certainly qualifies as trauma. No it doesn't - not when the first psion altered his own personality prior to using Mind Seed so that he would accept his identity as a clone. Building it into your own personality is flawed and is highly unlikely to work. You haven't demonstrated this; you're just saying it. With Programmed Amnesia, you alter yourself to have any traits necessary for your duplicate to obey you. You just eliminate in yourself the possibility of feeling trauma, disobedience of the original, confusion about identity, etc. None of these things will occur because the original can eliminate them as possibilities. There's a good reason to not use Programmed Amnesia after creating the Mind Seed. PA is permanent while MS is instantaneous. If you use PA on your duplicate after the fact so it will obey you, you lose control as soon as it's hit with a dispel. However, if you use PA on yourself as the original, the duplicate will inherit the subservient personality as its own, which cannot be dispelled, since the duplicate's personality is created through an instantaneous effect. And here's the best incarnation of the trick: Have a wizard friend use PA on you as the original psion, call him Primo. Your new personality is the same with this addition: "I will obey any command given by Primo." Altered Primo uses Mind Seed. The duplicate also will "Obey any command given by Primo." The wizard friend then dispels PA on the original, restoring the original Primo. Primo is now his original self with a duplicate who will do anything he says.
Varl 05-25-07, 11:32 AM	With all this Self-A and Self-B stuff going on, I'm trying to figure out what practical uses Mind Seed might allow you to do. It says that the Self-B is not your slave or servant, so what's the point of giving your "thought clone" all your memories, mannerisms, and powers 8 levels lower than you are now? I can't figure out any practical uses for this power that the psionicist would want to try and create. The two personalities even converge eventually, so any attempt to try and gain an ally that has powers and skills similar to your own is moot, and why would you even want that anyway? For an 8th level power, it sure seems underwhelming to me.
Sarlax 05-25-07, 11:44 AM	With all this Self-A and Self-B stuff going on, I'm trying to figure out what practical uses Mind Seed might allow you to do. Well, you can totally destroy an enemy. The power changes a person's soul. Even when the new entity dies, the original being will not be restored. Even without using the Program/Switch/Seed system, a mind seed is a good ally to have. Unless you are a real self-hating or sociopathic type, you can probably get along with your duplicate. It's like getting a cohort with all of the same goals as you. It's not as strong as if you took Leadership or became a Thrallherd, but there's no limit to how many you can create, and if you use epic advancement, 3000 XP quickly becomes a trivial amount. A 40th-level psion should be able to think of a lot of fun uses for a basically free army of 32nd-level psions. If you use the Switch/Seed trick, you get a lot of power from Mind Seed. Normally you just seed humanoids, which don't have much initial power. But if you seed other types who already have a lot of power, you get a lot more from the ability. A mind seeded dragon is "only" a 7th-level psion, but it's also a dragon, with all of its fun attacks, sorcery, etc. Here's the absolute best system: Hunt down a deepspawn and use the Program/Switch/Seed trick. You now have a monster factory which can duplicate (at full power, including class abilities) any creature it eats any number of times. Start seeding other monsters for it to eat; I suggest a beholder. For 6000 XP (a bargain!), you can have a deepspawn loyal to you producing an army of beholder psions. Every entity in the mix will have much of your power, your personality, and be totally loyal to you (through your enslaved, mind seeded deepspawn).
Zaistars69 05-25-07, 11:54 AM	The first problem may be that you're using my terminology incorrectly. Self-A isn't the one who manifests the Mind Seed. Self-A is what the psion was like before he altered himself to accept the commands of his mind seed creator. After the alteration, Self-A ceases to exist. The single psion, before any Mind Seed is used, is Self-B (the variant, creator-obeying personality). Self-B #1 then uses Mind Seed on some mook, who then becomes Self-B #2, the weak duplicate of Self-B #1, both of whom will obey any orders given by their creator. Since only Self-B #2 has a creator (#1), #2 will obey all of #1's orders. And it instantly disabuses itself of this notion. It's not stupid. It's an 7th-level telepath. It is just as smart as the original. It will instantly be aware it is the mindseed: It has lost a week of time, it's in a new body, it's 8 levels lower than it used to be, and by means of Programmed Amnesia, has a personality specifically designed to accept its role as a seeded entity. No it doesn't - not when the first psion altered his own personality prior to using Mind Seed so that he would accept his identity as a clone. You haven't demonstrated this; you're just saying it. With Programmed Amnesia, you alter yourself to have any traits necessary for your duplicate to obey you. You just eliminate in yourself the possibility of feeling trauma, disobedience of the original, confusion about identity, etc. None of these things will occur because the original can eliminate them as possibilities. There's a good reason to not use Programmed Amnesia after creating the Mind Seed. PA is permanent while MS is instantaneous. If you use PA on your duplicate after the fact so it will obey you, you lose control as soon as it's hit with a dispel. However, if you use PA on yourself as the original, the duplicate will inherit the subservient personality as its own, which cannot be dispelled, since the duplicate's personality is created through an instantaneous effect. And here's the best incarnation of the trick: Have a wizard friend use PA on you as the original psion, call him Primo. Your new personality is the same with this addition: "I will obey any command given by Primo." Altered Primo uses Mind Seed. The duplicate also will "Obey any command given by Primo." The wizard friend then dispels PA on the original, restoring the original Primo. Primo is now his original self with a duplicate who will do anything he says. It wouldn't seem that any permenant spells/powers would transfer to the clone. Strictly speaking would a permenant Tongues spell transfer to the new mind clone? Probably not so neither would the Programmed Amnesia
Sarlax 05-25-07, 12:19 PM	It wouldn't seem that any permenant spells/powers would transfer to the clone. Strictly speaking would a permenant Tongues spell transfer to the new mind clone? Probably not so neither would the Programmed Amnesia It's a valid concern. I believe PA would work, since it changes the target personality and it's the personality that is copied. Tongues doesn't change personality, so it doesn't get copied. I believe Mindrape is instantaneous, though, so it'd work just fine. The other possibility is to just condition yourself through mundane methods, deliberately prepping yourself psychologically to accept your role as a mind seed.
Zaistars69 05-25-07, 01:11 PM	It's a valid concern. I believe PA would work, since it changes the target personality and it's the personality that is copied. Tongues doesn't change personality, so it doesn't get copied. In that case it would be the PA that is being copied not the actual personality so it would be subject to dispel magic. Doesn't mind seed allow the target to speak all of the same languages you speak? So using your logic the tongues would transfer. It says "the totality of your psyche." If you are including PA ( a permanent effect) then you would have to include other permanent effects that interact with your brain (tongues, comprehend languages, etc). I think it would be easier to not allow permanent magical (psionic) effects.
kyeudo 05-26-07, 01:14 AM	This is why we need errata. Personaly, use whatever logic loop on your DM you want and see if he lets it swim. I would love to have an ally who is a Great Wyrm Red Dragon Psion (telepath) 8. Who wouldn't?
Sarlax 05-26-07, 09:33 AM	So using your logic the tongues would transfer. It says "the totality of your psyche." If you are including PA ( a permanent effect) then you would have to include other permanent effects that interact with your brain (tongues, comprehend languages, etc). That's not my logic. Tongues doesn't change personality. Effects which actually change personality (which is the copied element) would be duplicated.
Zaistars69 05-29-07, 10:41 AM	That's not my logic. Tongues doesn't change personality. Effects which actually change personality (which is the copied element) would be duplicated. PA doesn't permenantly change your personality, it overwrites it with another one which can easily be removed with any number of spells. If it was an instantanious effect than I would say yes copy it and have fun but since it is an ongoing magical effect it shouldn't copy.
Sarlax 05-29-07, 12:24 PM	PA doesn't permenantly change your personality, it overwrites it with another one which can easily be removed with any number of spells. If it was an instantanious effect than I would say yes copy it and have fun but since it is an ongoing magical effect it shouldn't copy. Duration: Permanent ... Persona rebuilding: By erasing the subject's previous personality and implanting a false set of memories, you can build a new persona for the creature, altering its alignment, beliefs, and personality traits. Permanently altering personality is exactly what the spell does. It also erases the previous personality; it doesn't store it somewhere else. If such an entity manifested Mind Seed, there's only one personality that could be copied - the current one. Consider this: A psion uses Programmed Amnesia on someone to make them remember being attacked by an orc when it was actually a kobold. Another psion asks the person, "What attacked you?" while subjecting them to Read Thoughts. Will the Read Thoughts reveal that the target thinks it was an orc or a kobold? Do you believe that other powers and spells just ignore these modifications? The fact that the effect of Programmed Amnesia can be undone with a single spell doesn't affect how other spells react to it right now because there are only the present memories that can be read, copied, or influencing the subject's behavior.
Zaistars69 05-29-07, 04:56 PM	Permanently altering personality is exactly what the spell does. It also erases the previous personality; it doesn't store it somewhere else. If such an entity manifested Mind Seed, there's only one personality that could be copied - the current one. Consider this: A psion uses Programmed Amnesia on someone to make them remember being attacked by an orc when it was actually a kobold. Another psion asks the person, "What attacked you?" while subjecting them to Read Thoughts. Will the Read Thoughts reveal that the target thinks it was an orc or a kobold? Do you believe that other powers and spells just ignore these modifications? The fact that the effect of Programmed Amnesia can be undone with a single spell doesn't affect how other spells react to it right now because there are only the present memories that can be read, copied, or influencing the subject's behavior. it depends on the spell. If the spell is making a copy of the "Characters" mind then yes it would ignore spell effects (or psionic effects) that are ongoing. If the spell (power) is asking the character's opinion of something (like a truth spell) then of course the programmed or altered state of mind would take effect. But the power in question (mind seed) is making a copy of the character's mind not the psionic powers currently running on the character. Would you allow someone to manifest that power that splits your mind so you get multiple actions and then manifest mind seed and have the seeded character develope two personalities (or whatever they are called)? Now all of this is irrelevant if they errat the duration to instantanious.
Sarlax 05-29-07, 05:07 PM	But the power in question (mind seed) is making a copy of the character's mind not the psionic powers currently running on the character. Programmed Amnesia changes the character's personality to something else. There's no other personality for Mind Seed to duplicate (the original is erased, see the spell description). Would you allow someone to manifest that power that splits your mind so you get multiple actions and then manifest mind seed and have the seeded character develope two personalities (or whatever they are called)? No, I would not allow Schism to be carried indefinitely. Why? Because Mind Seed copies levels (and associated learned abilities), personality, and mental ability scores. It doesn't copy over things like spell-like or supernatural abilities.
Zaistars69 05-29-07, 06:01 PM	Programmed Amnesia changes the character's personality to something else. There's no other personality for Mind Seed to duplicate (the original is erased, see the spell description). No, I would not allow Schism to be carried indefinitely. Why? Because Mind Seed copies levels (and associated learned abilities), personality, and mental ability scores. It doesn't copy over things like spell-like or supernatural abilities. Ahh but Programmed Amnesia is a spell-like ability (ie. psionic). Since it's duration is permanent instead of instantaneous and a dispel magic will cancel the ability obviously the original personality isn't completely erased. Looks like you need to make a house rule, as will many people. Also Schism also copies mental ability scores, personality and such because it allows you to do the same things with the other personality as with the primary
zzakk2to2 06-04-07, 01:11 PM	1.do the switch thing. 2.have psionic contingency that when you cast mind seed the power psionic dispell will activate on you . 3.use a power to make you think you are the mind seed and that you need to follow the original completely. 4.cast the mind seed on your body with the otherthings concius in it. 5.the dispell will go off and the mind effects on you are canceled and you are switched back to your body. that is how you do it. I advise that you be of a level so that the mindseeded thing will not be able to mind seed you.