mind switch and astral seed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

mind switch and astral seed? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kri69
08-23-07, 06:13 PM this my be ignorent of me but how can a lvl 8 shaper use a lvl 6 telepath power.
jbsaff
08-23-07, 07:04 PM If the shaper has 8 character levels and the power is a 6th level power from the telepath list, I don't see how it could be done. I don't even think that an 8th level shaper could cast a power of the highest level available to a 6th level telepath (that would be a 3rd level power) from the telepath list, as the feat opportunities don't work for using expanded knowledge. The only thing might be using a psionic item that allowed you to use the power assuming your ML was high enough.
Tempest Stormwind
08-23-07, 07:23 PM this my be ignorent of me but how can a lvl 8 shaper use a lvl 6 telepath power.

You're reading the levels wrong. Astral Seed is an 8th level power. Would you let an 8th level wizard cast Maze?

Note that since you can't spend more power points on any power than your manifester level, you can actually figure out what level a psion must be to use a power by looking at the power point cost. For Astral Seed, it's 15. Thus, the shaper manifesting Astral Seed is 15th level or higher. And a 15th level psion can easily pick up Mind Switch via Expanded Knowledge.
Kri69
08-24-07, 01:48 PM thank you for clering that up for me
PhaedrusXY
08-24-07, 02:47 PM If his Use Psionic Device skill was high enough, he could use a Power Stone. :D
DracoPhoenix
08-25-07, 06:02 AM If his Use Psionic Device skill was high enough, he could use a Power Stone. :D

Actually, he can't. The SRD states:

Addressing the Stone

A power stone must be “addressed” before a character can use it or know exactly what power it contains. Doing this requires a successful Psicraft check (DC 15 + power level). Once a particular power stone has been addressed, it is not necessary to do so again. Addressing a power stone in advance lets a character proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use it.

Using a stone’s stored power after addressing the stone requires holding the stone and willing the power’s manifestation, as if manifesting a power normally (a standard action). Activating a power stone is subject to disruption just as manifesting a power normally would be.

Additionally, the user must meet the following requirements.

* The user must have the power on his or her class list.
* The user must have the requisite key ability score.

If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure.

My Bold.

So you can't normally use a power on another discipline list to your own.

As for the UPD check - it's actually a manifester level check as detailed in the above.

It's possible for a shaper with the feat that allows you to take 10 on manifester checks can pop a genesis stone at char L10. About the time he gets plane shift & few levels before he can exp. knowledge(Teleport, Psionic).

The stone costs just over 8k, split 4 ways is nothing at that point.
InkBlot
08-25-07, 11:38 AM DracoPhoenix, please read the Use Psionic Device skill on page 38-39 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You are very very wrong.
DracoPhoenix
08-25-07, 11:59 AM DracoPhoenix, please read the Use Psionic Device skill on page 38-39 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You are very very wrong.

D'oh! But if I've read it right (enitrely possible I haven't), you're emulating the (shaper's) mainfester level which is done on 1d20+UPD-20 >= 9 (Teleport is a L5 power).

Effectively a DC 29 check. May or may not be easy depending on your build.
Jaid
08-25-07, 02:32 PM actually, i'm pretty sure it's this function of Use Psionic Device:

Use a Power Stone
Normally, to manifest a power from a power stone, you must have the power stone’s power on your class power list. This use of the skill allows you to use a power stone as if you had a particular power on your class power list. The DC is equal to 20 + the manifester level of the power you are trying to manifest from the power stone. Note: Before you use a power stone, you must first have addressed it to determine what powers it contains. In addition, manifesting a power from a power stone requires a minimum score (10 + power level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a high enough score, you must emulate the ability score with a separate check (see above). This use of the skill applies to other power completion psionic items.
MnemonicSV
08-25-07, 03:12 PM To be honest, I feel that the entire last paragraph of the text of astral seed was worded poorly and leads to many false conclusions:

First, mind switch is a poor example. Even after the switch, smashing the storage crystal which now contains the victim's soul would kill you too. I have to assume they meant true mind switch for this to work. Unless the wording of this power allows a temporary exception to the normal effects of mind switch (which I find unlikely).

Second, if you possess the qualities of a psicrystal while you inhabit the storage crystal, you are now a construct and are no longer subject to mind-affecting effects, such as mind switch. DMs might be generous here and allow it anyway (since you are still a "normal" mind in a construct's body), or perhaps use the example in this paragraph to justify a unique exception.

Third, if you used mind switch to usurp someone's body, their soul would now occupy the storage crystal. So why does the text state smashing your own "temporarily empty" storage crystal when it can't possibly be empty? This has to be a typo. (Either that, or the text implies the crystal is only empty of your soul, but not someone else's.)
AntiDjinn
08-25-07, 08:07 PM The section of Astral Seed that mentions Mind Switch is a legacy error: A chunk of text from the previous edition that wasn't cleaned up in the switch to 3.5. In 3.0 Mind Switch functioned more like True Mind Switch does now, and it interacted differently with Mind Store (3.0 Astral Seed). This is much like the way Metaconcert mentions dealing with stat damage from Mind Thrust. Such errors are generally holdover bits from the old edition, or they represent a transitional form of the given mechanic from some step in development or play testing that was incompletely revised. In most cases, this time of error means an editor or proofreader was asleep at the switch.
ArcTan
08-25-07, 08:40 PM DracoPhoenix, please read the Use Psionic Device skill on page 38-39 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You are very very wrong.

It's essentially the same as the rule for specialist Wizards and scrolls. An Enchanter who's banned Necromancy can't use a scroll of animate dead the normal way but he damn well can UMD it.

You can UPD anything and UMD anything, if your check is high enough. That's the point of the skill.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kri69 08-23-07, 06:13 PM	this my be ignorent of me but how can a lvl 8 shaper use a lvl 6 telepath power.
jbsaff 08-23-07, 07:04 PM	If the shaper has 8 character levels and the power is a 6th level power from the telepath list, I don't see how it could be done. I don't even think that an 8th level shaper could cast a power of the highest level available to a 6th level telepath (that would be a 3rd level power) from the telepath list, as the feat opportunities don't work for using expanded knowledge. The only thing might be using a psionic item that allowed you to use the power assuming your ML was high enough.
Tempest Stormwind 08-23-07, 07:23 PM	this my be ignorent of me but how can a lvl 8 shaper use a lvl 6 telepath power. You're reading the levels wrong. Astral Seed is an 8th level power. Would you let an 8th level wizard cast Maze? Note that since you can't spend more power points on any power than your manifester level, you can actually figure out what level a psion must be to use a power by looking at the power point cost. For Astral Seed, it's 15. Thus, the shaper manifesting Astral Seed is 15th level or higher. And a 15th level psion can easily pick up Mind Switch via Expanded Knowledge.
Kri69 08-24-07, 01:48 PM	thank you for clering that up for me
PhaedrusXY 08-24-07, 02:47 PM	If his Use Psionic Device skill was high enough, he could use a Power Stone. :D
DracoPhoenix 08-25-07, 06:02 AM	If his Use Psionic Device skill was high enough, he could use a Power Stone. :D Actually, he can't. The SRD states: Addressing the Stone A power stone must be “addressed” before a character can use it or know exactly what power it contains. Doing this requires a successful Psicraft check (DC 15 + power level). Once a particular power stone has been addressed, it is not necessary to do so again. Addressing a power stone in advance lets a character proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use it. Using a stone’s stored power after addressing the stone requires holding the stone and willing the power’s manifestation, as if manifesting a power normally (a standard action). Activating a power stone is subject to disruption just as manifesting a power normally would be. Additionally, the user must meet the following requirements. * The user must have the power on his or her class list. * The user must have the requisite key ability score. If the user meets these requirements and has a manifester level at least equal to the power’s manifester level, she can automatically manifest the stored power without a check. If she meets both requirements but her own level is lower than the power stone’s manifester level, she has to make a manifester level check (1d20 + user’s level), against a DC equal to the power stone’s manifester level +1, to manifest the power successfully. On a failure, the user must succeed on a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid brainburn (see below). A natural roll of 1 on this check is always a failure. My Bold. So you can't normally use a power on another discipline list to your own. As for the UPD check - it's actually a manifester level check as detailed in the above. It's possible for a shaper with the feat that allows you to take 10 on manifester checks can pop a genesis stone at char L10. About the time he gets plane shift & few levels before he can exp. knowledge(Teleport, Psionic). The stone costs just over 8k, split 4 ways is nothing at that point.
InkBlot 08-25-07, 11:38 AM	DracoPhoenix, please read the Use Psionic Device skill on page 38-39 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You are very very wrong.
DracoPhoenix 08-25-07, 11:59 AM	DracoPhoenix, please read the Use Psionic Device skill on page 38-39 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You are very very wrong. D'oh! But if I've read it right (enitrely possible I haven't), you're emulating the (shaper's) mainfester level which is done on 1d20+UPD-20 >= 9 (Teleport is a L5 power). Effectively a DC 29 check. May or may not be easy depending on your build.
Jaid 08-25-07, 02:32 PM	actually, i'm pretty sure it's this function of Use Psionic Device: Use a Power Stone Normally, to manifest a power from a power stone, you must have the power stone’s power on your class power list. This use of the skill allows you to use a power stone as if you had a particular power on your class power list. The DC is equal to 20 + the manifester level of the power you are trying to manifest from the power stone. Note: Before you use a power stone, you must first have addressed it to determine what powers it contains. In addition, manifesting a power from a power stone requires a minimum score (10 + power level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a high enough score, you must emulate the ability score with a separate check (see above). This use of the skill applies to other power completion psionic items.
MnemonicSV 08-25-07, 03:12 PM	To be honest, I feel that the entire last paragraph of the text of astral seed was worded poorly and leads to many false conclusions: First, mind switch is a poor example. Even after the switch, smashing the storage crystal which now contains the victim's soul would kill you too. I have to assume they meant true mind switch for this to work. Unless the wording of this power allows a temporary exception to the normal effects of mind switch (which I find unlikely). Second, if you possess the qualities of a psicrystal while you inhabit the storage crystal, you are now a construct and are no longer subject to mind-affecting effects, such as mind switch. DMs might be generous here and allow it anyway (since you are still a "normal" mind in a construct's body), or perhaps use the example in this paragraph to justify a unique exception. Third, if you used mind switch to usurp someone's body, their soul would now occupy the storage crystal. So why does the text state smashing your own "temporarily empty" storage crystal when it can't possibly be empty? This has to be a typo. (Either that, or the text implies the crystal is only empty of your soul, but not someone else's.)
AntiDjinn 08-25-07, 08:07 PM	The section of Astral Seed that mentions Mind Switch is a legacy error: A chunk of text from the previous edition that wasn't cleaned up in the switch to 3.5. In 3.0 Mind Switch functioned more like True Mind Switch does now, and it interacted differently with Mind Store (3.0 Astral Seed). This is much like the way Metaconcert mentions dealing with stat damage from Mind Thrust. Such errors are generally holdover bits from the old edition, or they represent a transitional form of the given mechanic from some step in development or play testing that was incompletely revised. In most cases, this time of error means an editor or proofreader was asleep at the switch.
ArcTan 08-25-07, 08:40 PM	DracoPhoenix, please read the Use Psionic Device skill on page 38-39 of the Expanded Psionics Handbook. You are very very wrong. It's essentially the same as the rule for specialist Wizards and scrolls. An Enchanter who's banned Necromancy can't use a scroll of animate dead the normal way but he damn well can UMD it. You can UPD anything and UMD anything, if your check is high enough. That's the point of the skill.