Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 11:57 PM	Minor creation and its counterparts are one of the most single useful powers in dnd, given a choice i would be hard pressed to decide between astral construct and minor creation, its that awesome. However minor creation as presented has little data to support uses for most creative players. So rather than go through the effort of calculating all the numbers each time i use it, i've decided to compile many of the charts into one location. the First block of data is what is presented for minor creation, Volume and its size as a cube.C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6 C7 Level Volume Length Inches Inch^2 Feet ^2 10 Foot Wall Length 1 1 1.00 12.00 41.57 3.46 1.20 2 2 1.25 15.00 58.79 4.90 2.40 3 3 1.44 17.28 72.00 6.00 3.60 4 4 1.58 18.96 83.14 6.93 4.80 5 5 1.70 20.40 92.95 7.75 6.00 6 6 1.81 21.72 101.82 8.49 7.20 7 7 1.91 22.92 109.98 9.17 8.40 8 8 2.00 24.00 117.58 9.80 9.60 9 9 2.08 24.96 124.71 10.39 10.80 10 10 2.15 25.80 131.45 10.95 12.00 11 11 2.22 26.64 137.87 11.49 13.20 12 12 2.28 27.36 144.00 12.00 14.40 13 13 2.35 28.20 149.88 12.49 15.60 14 14 2.41 28.92 155.54 12.96 16.80 15 15 2.46 29.52 161.00 13.42 18.00 16 16 2.51 30.12 166.28 13.86 19.20 17 17 2.57 30.84 171.39 14.28 20.40 18 18 2.62 31.44 176.36 14.70 21.60 19 19 2.66 31.92 181.20 15.10 22.80 20 20 2.71 32.52 185.90 15.49 24.00 Column legend Manifester Level Volume of Created Matter Length of each side in a cube in feet length of the same cube in inches Side Length (L or W) of a one inch thick panel in inches Same panel in Feet Length of a 10 foot tall wall one inch thick (as usual half the width to double the thickness) Thats just the basic Power. Volume Pounds Gallons Quarts Pints Ounces 1 62 7.40 29 59 947 2 124 14.80 59 118 1,894 3 186 22.20 88 177 2,841 4 248 29.60 118 236 3,788 5 310 37.00 148 296 4,736 6 372 44.40 177 355 5,683 7 434 51.80 207 414 6,630 8 496 59.20 236 473 7,577 9 558 66.60 266 532 8,524 10 620 74.00 296 592 9,472 11 682 81.40 325 651 10,419 12 744 88.80 355 710 11,366 13 806 96.20 384 769 12,313 14 868 103.60 414 828 13,260 15 930 111.00 444 888 14,208 16 992 118.40 473 947 15,155 17 1054 125.80 503 1,006 16,102 18 1116 133.20 532 1,065 17,049 19 1178 140.60 562 1,124 17,996 20 1240 148.00 592 1,184 18,944 This chart is based off of water. To keep things simple water is assumed to weigh 62 pounds per cubic feet, also there are 7.4 gallons in the cubic foot (rather than 7.44~~~~blah blah blah). So say at level 5 we want to make some poison, unless the specific gravity of the poison is significantly greater or lesser than water. One can simply take the value from the ounces table and thats how many doses. Plese not that because of rounding the numbers are roughly 5% off but in most cases you don't need that level of accuracy. Once we have this base table it becomes easy to calculate other units. All one needs to do is take the specific gravity value of a material and multiply the pounds value on the table by the specific gravity value. So Apple .66-.83 Ash, black 0.54 Ash, white 0.67 Aspen 0.42 Balsa 0.17 Bamboo .30-.40 Birch (British) 0.67 Cedar, red 0.38 Cypress 0.51 Douglas Fir 0.53 Ebony .96-1.12 Elm ( English ) 0.6 Elm ( Wych ) 0.69 Elm ( Rock ) 0.815 Larch 0.59 Mahogany ( Honduras ) 0.545 Mahogany ( African ) .495-.850 Maple 0.755 Oak .590-.930 Pine ( Oregon ) 0.53 Pine ( Parana ) 0.56 Pine ( Canadian ) .350-.560 Pine ( Red ) .370-.660 Redwood ( American ) 0.45 Redwood ( European ) 0.51 Spruce ( Canadian ) 0.45 Spruce ( Sitka ) 0.45 Sycamore 0.59 Teak .63-.72 Willow 0.42 These are some common wood types Alfalfa, ground .256 Apples .641 Bark, wood refuse .240 Barley .609 Beans, castor .577 Beans, cocoa .593 Beans, navy .801 Beans, soy .721 Beets .721 Bran .256 Brewers grain .432 Buckwheat .657 Cardboard .689 Chocolate, powder .641 Clover seed .769 Coconut, meal .513 Coconut, shredded .352 Coffee, fresh beans .561 Coffee, roast beans .432 Copra, medium size .529 Copra, meal, ground .641 Copra, expeller cake ground .513 Copra, expeller cake chopped .465 Cork, solid .240 Cork, ground .160 Corn, on the cob .721 Corn, shelled .721 Corn, grits .673 Cottonseed, dry, de-linted .561 Cottonseed, dry, not de-linted .320 Cottonseed, cake, lumpy .673 Cottonseed, hulls .192 Cottonseed, meal .593 Cottonseed, meats .641 Cottonwood .416 Flaxseed, whole .721 Flour, wheat .593 Glue, vegetable, powdered .641 Gluten, meal .625 Grain - Maize .760 Grain - Barley .600 Grain - Millet .760-.800 Grain - Wheat .780-.800 Linseed, whole .753 Linseed, meal .513 Malt .336 Oats .432 Oats, rolled .304 Oil cake .785 Oil, linseed .942 Paper, standard 1.201 Peanuts, shelled .641 Peanuts, not shelled .272 Peat, dry .400 Peat, moist .801 Peat, wet 1.121 Pecan wood .753 Rice, hulled .753 Rice, rough .577 Rice grits .689 Rosin 1.073 Rubber, caoutchouc .945 Rubber, manufactured 1.522 Rubber, ground scrap .481 Rye .705 Sawdust .210 Soy beans, whole .753 Starch, powdered .561 Sugar, brown .721 Sugar, powdered .801 Sugar, granulated .849 Sugar, raw cane .961 Sugarbeet pulp, dry .208 Sugarbeet pulp, wet .561 Sugarcane .272 Tobacco .320 Turpentine .865 Walnut, black, dry .609 Wheat .769 Wheat, cracked .673 Copra is the meat of a coconut Turpentine is distilled pine resin (so a plant product) Rosin is remaint after the turpentine is produced from heated resin and is highly flamable. More common uses involve powder forms used to increase friction. (personally i would say its worth a small bonus in climb checks or when you need a better grip) The uses of most of the materials is obvious. Rosin is something i use in place of candles. As beeswax is an animal product. More common uses is to blend it with alchohol (it disolves in it) to produce as sticky firestarter. (think weak alchemist fire we) Aloe Vera is another good plant product. (no real mechanical effect other than we use it as parts of healing kits Check Here (http://www.plantoils.in/) for more plant products CL Radius Shell V Diameter R Feet D Feet Open Vol Amount 1 12 1 24 1.0 2.0 4.1 30.34 2 17 2 34 1.4 2.8 11.9 88.06 3 20 3 40 1.7 3.3 19.3 142.82 4 23 4 46 1.9 3.8 29.4 217.56 5 26 5 52 2.2 4.3 42.6 315.24 6 29 6 58 2.4 4.8 59.1 437.34 7 31 7 62 2.6 5.2 72.2 534.28 8 33 8 66 2.8 5.5 87.1 644.54 9 35 9 70 2.9 5.8 103.9 768.86 10 37 10 74 3.1 6.2 122.7 907.98 11 39 11 78 3.3 6.5 143.7 1063.38 12 41 12 82 3.4 6.8 167 1235.8 13 42 13 84 3.5 7.0 179.5 1328.3 14 44 14 88 3.7 7.3 206.4 1527.36 15 45 15 90 3.8 7.5 220.8 1633.92 16 47 16 94 3.9 7.8 251.6 1861.84 17 48 17 96 4.0 8.0 268 1983.2 18 50 18 100 4.2 8.3 303 2242.2 19 51 19 102 4.3 8.5 321.5 2379.1 20 52 20 104 4.3 8.7 340.8 2521.92 This chart is the maximum size of a one inch thick sphere with the listed internal radius. By caster level 10 (and before) you can can encase someone with say a wooden sphere or something else. Although not needed i restated the gallon volume of the sphere in the last collum. CL V(i) R(i) R(s) V(s) ~Cl 1 1728 7.44 8.44 794.1200 0.46 2 3456 9.38 10.38 1,227.49 0.71 3 5184 10.74 11.74 1,587.64 0.92 4 6912 11.82 12.82 1,907.45 1.10 5 8640 12.73 13.73 2,200.38 1.27 6 10368 13.53 14.53 2,473.57 1.43 7 12096 14.24 15.24 2,731.41 1.58 8 13824 14.89 15.89 2,976.80 1.72 9 15552 15.48 16.48 3,211.84 1.86 10 17280 16.04 17.04 3,438.04 1.99 11 19008 16.56 17.56 3,656.59 2.12 12 20736 17.04 18.04 3,868.42 2.24 13 22464 17.50 18.50 4,074.28 2.36 17 29376 19.14 20.14 4,848.84 2.81 18 31104 19.51 20.51 5,032.29 2.91 19 32832 19.86 20.86 5,212.29 3.02 20 34560 20.21 21.21 5,389.09 3.12 This Data set below this text is a hemisphere with the listed VolumeCL V(i) R(i) R(s) V(s) ~Cl 1 1728 9.38 10.38 613.7400 0.36 2 3456 11.82 12.82 953.7300 0.55 3 5184 13.53 14.53 1,236.79 0.72 4 6912 14.89 15.89 1,488.40 0.86 5 8640 16.04 17.04 1,719.02 0.99 6 10368 17.04 18.04 1,934.21 1.12 7 12096 17.94 18.94 2,137.39 1.24 8 13824 18.76 19.76 2,330.83 1.35 9 15552 19.51 20.51 2,516.15 1.46 10 17280 20.21 21.21 2,694.54 1.56 11 19008 20.86 21.86 2,866.94 1.66 12 20736 21.47 22.47 3,034.07 1.76 13 22464 22.05 23.05 3,196.51 1.85 17 29376 24.12 25.12 3,807.91 2.20 18 31104 24.58 25.58 3,952.76 2.29 19 32832 25.03 26.03 4,094.90 2.37 20 34560 25.46 26.46 4,234.51 2.45 Legend CL=CasterLevel V(i)=Internal Volume (how much it can hold) R(i)=Internal Radius (open air radius) R(s)=Outer Radius of the Shell (Shells are one inch thick) V(s)=The total Volume of the Shell ~Cl=This is the casterlevel needed to spontaneously produce the shell, If we were using link power or call item we would need the listed caster level to produce the bowl/sphere then fill it the next round with a substance [Largest Possible Hemisphere by Shell Volume] CL V(i) R(i) R(s) V(s) ~Cl 485 838080 73.69 74.69 34,584.22 20.01 [Largest Possible Sphere by Shell Volume] CL V(i) R(i) R(s) V(s) ~Cl 340 587520 51.96 52.96 34,580.49 20.01 For Reference. Aside from the uses of wooden spheres, (if only for amusement) the spheres were for sieges Siege Weap Weight Volume Radius Inches Pints AoE Mangonel, Heavy 75 1.210 0.199 2.387 126.000 31 Mangonel, Light 40 0.645 0.088 1.054 55.000 20 Scorpion 75 1.210 0.199 2.387 126.000 31 Trebuchet, Heavy 150 2.419 0.490 5.879 311.000 49 Trebuchet, Light 100 1.613 0.289 3.470 183.000 38 You can pour a pint of oil on the ground to cover an area 5 feet square, provided that the surface is smooth. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 1d3 points of fire damage to each creature in the area. AoE section is calculated as the area idealy covered by the amount of oil/flamable liquid in each sphere. Although the idea never saw use its always good to have siege stats on hand. As a bonus the sphere itself is wooden and can be lit on fire pre launch to help ensure ignition. A1 A2 A3 A4 1 6 1.63 3.26 2 6 7.63 15.26 3 6 4.91 9.82 4 6 6.54 13.08 5 6 8.18 16.36 6 6 9.82 19.64 7 6 11.45 22.90 8 6 13.09 26.18 9 6 14.73 29.46 10 6 16.37 32.74 11 6 18.00 36.00 12 6 19.64 39.28 13 6 21.28 42.56 14 6 22.91 45.82 15 6 24.55 49.10 16 6 26.19 52.38 17 6 27.82 55.64 18 6 29.46 58.92 19 6 31.10 62.20 20 6 32.74 65.48 B1 B2 B3 B4 1 15 0.71 1.42 2 15 7.63 15.26 3 15 2.14 4.28 4 15 2.86 5.72 5 15 3.58 7.16 6 15 4.29 8.58 7 15 5.01 10.02 8 15 5.72 11.44 9 15 6.44 12.88 10 15 7.16 14.32 11 15 7.87 15.74 12 15 8.59 17.18 13 15 9.31 18.62 14 15 10.02 20.04 15 15 10.74 21.48 16 15 11.45 22.90 17 15 12.17 24.34 18 15 12.89 25.78 19 15 13.60 27.20 20 15 14.32 28.64 C1 C2 C3 C4 1 30 0.36 0.72 2 30 7.63 15.26 3 30 1.10 2.20 4 30 1.47 2.94 5 30 1.84 3.68 6 30 2.21 4.42 7 30 2.58 5.16 8 30 2.95 5.90 9 30 3.32 6.64 10 30 3.69 7.38 11 30 4.06 8.12 12 30 4.43 8.86 13 30 4.80 9.60 14 30 5.17 10.34 15 30 5.54 11.08 16 30 5.91 11.82 17 30 6.28 12.56 18 30 6.65 13.30 19 30 7.02 14.04 20 30 7.39 14.78 Legend This tube or Trough is 1 foot in diameter, 5 per square This Tube or Trough is 2.5 Feet in Diameter, 2 per square This Tube or Trough is 5 Feet in diameter, 1 per square This Column is the caster level This Column is the radius of the tube in inches This Column Is the length as a trough (half a tube) As a point, the average width of the human hip is greater than 10 but less than 20 inches so you could create tubes to slide down with little effort. The main problem is time. Currently i'm looking at using Link power and using Call item as the initial power, and Minor Creation as the linked power.
Lokiyn 11-29-06, 11:58 PM	*Reserved for both other posters ideas and for minerals (major creation) as well as possible knowledge Dc's for odd chemicals. Alchemical (http://www.levity.com/alchemy/substanc.html) Substances. More Substances (http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/chemistry.htm) what i propose is that we limit our discussions to substances discovered by alchemists. One possible Dc set is a Knowledge Nature check Dc 10 for alchemical substances that are found in nature (ores and such) A Dc 15 Alchemy Check to produce items that are one step extractions (soak seaweed for iodine) Multiple step chemicals are a dc25 an only if the items can be produced with basic tools (Heating with flame, Cooling to distill, and such) anything a classic beaker/ coal fire and water cooling system can make. No electrical processes or anything beyond say 1500's at the latest. This second post is going to be rambly as I research alchemy in my spare time for this One interesting thing I’ve already turned up is that gunpowder as produced in the ancient times did not explode, rather it was an incendiary. Gunpowder with sufficient power for what we consider a proper explosion required a process known as corning(1429). Actual exploding gunpowder appears to have been developed around 1240 or so. One possible interpretation of Smokepowder in dnd is that gunpowder hasn't been discovered as gnomes and inventors are working with Gold hydrazine or some other exotic explosive. After all nothing says that science progresses the same everywhere. While in our world we discovered gunpowder early and Fulminating gold and silver late (1600's) there is not reason that in another they discovered these substances the other way around, and without any sort of science they just muddle through trying to improve what they have. ResinResin is a hydrocarbon secretion of many plants, particularly coniferous trees, valued for its chemical constituents and uses such as varnishes, adhesives, as an important source of raw materials for organic synthesis, or for incense and perfume. Fossilized resins are the source of amber. Products Amberof course as a gem amber can simply be sold off. Other than that amber as amber is only good as a static generator TurpentineFractionally distilled from Resin. This is a highly effective lice treatment, cleaning agent, and of course burns. N~HeptaneFlammable, doesn't dissolve in water CopalIts an incense and a cheap amber substitute for jewels Dammarused in foods to preserve them longer Sandaracmore incense FrankincenseMore incense, often used in religious ceremonies Rosin, formerly called colophony or Greek pitchAfter heating the resin to get the more volatile compounds out you get a Semitransparent cake like substance. Very flammable it burns with a Smokey flame, and works as a pitching agent to stop leaks in casks. Poppy (Papaver somniferum or Opium Poppy)The opium poppy, Papaver somniferum, is the type of poppy from which opium and all refined opiates such as morphine (up to 20%), thebaine (5%), codeine (1%), papaverine (1%), and narcotine (5-8%) are naturally present and extracted from the poppy. Opium:Dried, the brownish Raw Opium is heated and the gasses inhaled. a pea sized Dollop is sufficient for about an hour If we assign a "pea sized dose" to 1/8th x 1/8th x 1/8th of an inch that’s 884,736 Doses per Cubic Foot. Morphine[1804]Orally, it comes as an elixir, concentrated solution, powder (for compounding) or in tablet form. Taken orally (as we will assume in dnd) is 1/6th - 1/3 as strong as other methods. A small dose provides relaxation and slight euphioria [-1 init?], a medium dose relieves pain[+2 to con based checks?], larger dose puts one to sleep[Fort [sleep 1 min/sleep 1 hour]?], and an even larger dose kills [Con Damage?[1d10/1d10]?] ThebaineA Stimulant, rather than a depressant (like morphine) used in production of other chemicals, naturally occurring CodeineSlight addiction, Moderate to severe pain relief, Slight depressive (drowsiness), kills sex drive.... Kobolds on Codeine! papacerineBasically this drug is used to treat muscle spasms NarcotineReduces spasms in involuntary muscle systems (aka Coughing) [give it to that horse that keeps giving you away] LaudanumA Tincture of Opium, Basically Raw opium mixed with alcohol and sugar, same effects as opium with a slightly diluted virtue Deadly nightshade, BelladonnaDeadly nightshade or belladonna (Atropa belladonna) is a well-known perennial shrub, with leaves and berries that are highly toxic. It is in the nightshade family (Solanaceae), Children have been poisoned by eating as few as three berries. Ingestion of a leaf of the Belladonna can be fatal to an adult. The root of the plant is generally the most toxic part, though this can vary from one specimen to another. Belladonna is an entirely poisonous plant, for the purposes of dnd it is safe to assume that the plant is dried, ground and then seeped to produce a liquid form of belladonna. The main active ingredient of Belladonna is Atropine.Atropine OphthalmicUsed topically a single drop of Diluted Belladonna causes the pupil to dilate, this lasts for 2-3 days and often results in blurred visions. Other than that Belladonna is a poison and works to suppress the parasympathetic nerve system.DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Strength damage. One minute later, the character must succeed on a second DC 13 save or take an additional 2d6 points of Strength damage. Belladonna Ingested, Fort 13 [1d6 Str]/[2d6 Str] Calabar bean The Calabar bean is the seed of a leguminous plant. Highly poisonous the been has few beneficial uses. It contracts the pupil (possibly acting as a counter to light sensitivity) in small topical doses to the eye, however its main importance (for our purposes) is that it is a counter to Belladonna, Equivalent doses cancel each other out, however according to the 1911 encyclopedia Britannica, in 1/4 cases the two drugs combine to hasten death. Understand however that this is something that could be considered extremely high level alchemy, Knowledge of the ability of one deadly poison to counteract another is not something that would be widely known. Calabar Ingested, Fort 13 [1d6 Str]/[2d6 Str], (heals strength damage dealt by Belladonna, then deals remainder of damage) ? Something like this? Nepeta, CatnipNepeta cataria (Catnip, True Catnip, Catmint or Field Balm) is a 50–100 cm tall herb resembling mint in appearance, with greyish-green leaves; the flowers are white, finely spotted with purple. Although there are many species of "catnip" the species of interest is the cataria species. Feline CrackIts most famous property, Catnip affects roughly 2/3 cats, for a few minutes after first comming into contact the cats full attention is on the catnip, in which it plays with it, rolls in it and generally focuses its attention on it. After words the cat needs up to two hours before it will be affected again. Larger cats are more sensitive than smaller cats. Oil of catariaWhen the plant is rendered into an oil the lions share of the chemicals is the substance Nepetalactone, Its basic properties are as follows. In humans, the compound has a number of very mild effects; it is a weak sedative, antispasmodic, febrifuge and antibacterial. In high doses it also has an emetic effect. It also has an effect on some insects, repelling the cockroach and mosquito, poisonous to some common flies, but a sex pheromone to aphids. The Following are an attempt to catalog the Herbs and plants presented in the Arms and Equipment Guide I Should mention that half or more of this information is from Wikipedia, i['m just consolidating it here and suggesting possible uses for them as i see them, Some of its quite obvious such as the different pain killers counteracting some of the penalties induced by effects that are "pain" based, or used to counter effects that keep you awake by putting you in a deep deep sleep, such as countering nightmare for a time. AniseAnise; Anise is one of the herbs presented in the Arms and Equipment guide, while we aren't certain is all herbs or what herbs are present in dnd, we are certain of the herbs listed in the Arms and equipment guide as being "in the game"Anise has the following uses Culinary Medicinal Digestive Aid Toothache relief As an oil, to treat lice and Scabies Other possible uses Anise is Known to attract fish It is used to Flavor many alcohols In some breeds of dog has the same effect as catnip, while cats are also attracted to Anise oils, though not as much as catnip Monarda didymaBergamot Herb: Monarda didyma (Bergamot, Scarlet Beebalm, Scarlet Monarda, Oswego Tea, or Crimson Beebalm) is an aromatic herb in the family Lamiaceae, native to eastern North America from Maine west to Ohio and south to northern Georgia. Its name is derived from its odor which is considered similar to that of the bergamot orange. The scientific name comes from Nicolas Monardes, who described the first American flora in 1569.This plant has no known uses other than as a flavoring or scenting ingredient, however since it was a little difficult to find the herb i thought i'd include it here for fun. CarawayCaraway[/B]: Persian cumin (Carum carvi) is a biennial plant in the family Apiaceae, native to Europe and western Asia. The plant is similar in appearance to a carrot plant, with finely divided, feathery leaves with thread-like divisions, growing on 20–30 cm stems. The main flower stem is 40–60 cm tall, with small white or pink flowers in umbels. Caraway fruits, (erroneously called seeds) are crescent-shaped achenes, around 2 mm long, with five pale ridges. This plant is used to expel internal worms when brewed and drunk as a tea. Although this doesn’t have an in game effect its something that a dm might use for those rare monsters that are parasitic (the Gutworm FF) for one.
tacoronte 11-30-06, 03:50 AM	Great job ! this can certianly help out a lot for playing Shapers. Gotta print some of those tables to bring to a game :)
Ichor Spellka 11-30-06, 10:39 AM	Very nice job. And very nice research. Using minor creation to create wooden spheres to hold liquids for siege engines is awesome.
RunSuckerRun 11-30-06, 01:37 PM	This chart is based off of water. To keep things simple water is assumed to weigh 62 pounds per cubic feet, also there are 7.4 gallons in the cubic foot I think that's off by quite a bit. Should be 1.* gallons in a cubic foot or water. -RSR
RadicalTaoist 11-30-06, 01:58 PM	Black Lotus Extract at low, low level
Lokiyn 11-30-06, 02:51 PM	This chart is based off of water. To keep things I think that's off by quite a bit. Should be 1.* gallons in a cubic foot or water. -RSR ???? basic chemistry here water's properties: Weight: 62.416 pounds per cubic foot at 32°F Weight: 61.998 pounds per cubic foot at 100°F Weight: 8.33 pounds/gallon, 0.036 pounds/cubic inch Density: 1 gram per cubic centimeter (cc) at 39.2°F, 0.95865 gram per cc at 212°F water is the foundational unit of comparison for most materials so its best for a starting point (specific gravity is key) As for black lotus, remember craft checks Dc 35 is a little diffcult to reach at level 1
gooddragon1 11-30-06, 03:00 PM	gnomish shaper +2 racial +2 artisans tools +4 max ranks +4 18 int +3 skill focus feat +15 total taking 20 gives you the time you need if you can take 20 on that check 35 total Duration of power is 1hr/lvl and 20 rounds is 2 minutes, you have 58 minutes to do whatever you are going to do.
Tempest Stormwind 11-30-06, 03:10 PM	First, amazing guide. I'll be using it when designing some new tricks with this power myself. GoodDragon1: You don't create the raw materials, you create the substance itself. Reread Minor Creation: To take 20 on manifesting it, you'd have to manifest it 20 times, which a first-level character cannot do. (Oh, and the gnome's bonus is on Craft(ALCHEMY) checks, not the required Craft(Poisonmaking). water's properties: Weight: 62.416 pounds per cubic foot at 32°F Weight: 61.998 pounds per cubic foot at 100°F Weight: 8.33 pounds/gallon, 0.036 pounds/cubic inch Density: 1 gram per cubic centimeter (cc) at 39.2°F, 0.95865 gram per cc at 212°F water is the foundational unit of comparison for most materials so its best for a starting point (specific gravity is key)Ah, the Imperial system. I like seeing things like this just so I can remind myself how byzantine it is. I mean, weight as a fundamental dimension, rather than mass? And how were some unit conversion ratios decided, by hucking darts? :p (Of course, since D&D uses Imperial, someone's gotta deal with it... or just replace the whole thing with SI.)
gooddragon1 11-30-06, 03:14 PM	Ah, I wasn't sure with the taking 20 bit, but I did originally think craft(alchemy) worked for poisons too ... I guess not. Do natural 20's count on skill rolls tho?
Lokiyn 11-30-06, 03:28 PM	If i recall, Craft (Poison) can be replicated with craft Alchemy at a -4 penalty. The interesting thing is that once you have the water table the rest is simply multiplying the table by the specific gravity value of the material in question. I think the majority of the rest of the things added to the guide will be various materials and discussions of in game effects as well as craft Dc's. For example Fulminating Gold is a alchemical product, but how much damage per ounce, what craft dc should we use, and how much does it normally cost to make. One option is to examine the alchemical substances that explode thenThawing Ice: One cubic foot of ice can be converted to water for every 10 points of fi re damage dealt to it. Using frostburn rules we could get a calorie value per point of fire damage then convert the energy release of a chemical reaction into damage. Lot of effort that i'll wait to do.
Kiklio 11-30-06, 08:01 PM	1ft^3=28316cm^3 28316cm^3=25965g 25965g=8672567J 86725667J=2072743 thermochemical calories 207274 thermochemical calories per point of fire damage, given the below assumptions. Or 207 nutritional calories. Double-check it if you want. This is one spectacular guide, Lokiyn. I'd appreciate Craft DC's most of all. Assumptions Most importantly, the ice starts at 0 degrees Celsius 1ft^3=28316cm^3 Density is 1g=.917cm^3 Heat of Fusion 1g=334J 1J=.239C I truncated at the decimal place after each conversion
Psychokinetic 11-30-06, 08:28 PM	This is fantastic, thanks for working all that out and posting it. Someone should add it to a sticky under the POWERS list or something on the master index. It will be very handy for in game use.:)
Lokiyn 11-30-06, 10:12 PM	Lets double check things (just for accuracy) Ok So Cubic Foot of Water =62 pounds Taking that we multiply by the Specific gravity of Ice (.917) Cubic Foot of Ice = ~56.85 Pounds / 2.2 Divide By 2.2 to convert pounds to Kilograms Cubic Foot of Ice = ~25.84 Kilograms or ~25842.72 Grams Heat of Fusion = 335.5 Joules So only considering phase changes we then we use 8,670,235 Joules or 8,670.24 k Joules Take this value and divide by 10 (the amount of fire damage) We then get 867.02 K Joules per Point of Fire damage or 207 K Calories. So we seem to at least be on the same page with the numbers. So for comparison we take Nitroglycerin. 4 C3H5(NO3)3 -> 12 CO2 + 6 N2 + 10 H2O + O2 + 5656 kJ (1488 cal/g) So we get 1.488 K Calories per Gram of nitro which is 6.225792 K Joules per Gram of energy The average stick of dynamite is 1 inch in diameter and 8 inches long. So a volume of 6.28 cubic inches, ¾ of which is nitroglycerin from what I can gather. So about 4.712 cubic inches. Nitro’s specific gravity lends it to ~70.06 Pounds per cubic foot, so / 1728 to get pounds per inches .040544 pounds per cubic inch so about 0.191059 Pounds or about 2.9 ounces. Let’s make it three. Pounds to grams gives us about 86.84 (87) Grams of nitro. So the average stick of dynamite deals 540 K Joules or .62 points of fire damage…… That can’t be right. Hmmm finding a proper value is going to be difficult if we only use energy for one degree C per Cu Feet 56.854 Pounds Ice per Cubic Foot 25.84272727 Kilograms 25842.72727 Grams 25842.72727 Joules 25.84272727 K Joules 6.176560056 K Cal 2.584272727 K Joules per Point of Fire Damage Uh 208.956 Points of damage for a stick of dynamite.... Well anyway i thinking we are going to need to abandon the Damage points to Joules conversion as fairly unworkable. So what i was thinking about for Dc's was something like this Dc Material 10 Common Base Materials 15 Uncommon Base Materials 20 Rare Base Materials/Common Extracts 25 Uncommon extracts 30 Rare Extracts/Common multisteps 35 Uncomon Multisteps 40 Rare Multisteps Since its impractical to list a dc for every single material in existance we generalize So we have 6 categories of item. CommonSomething like pine or oak in a temporate zone, apples or other common foodstuffs uncommonSomething thats not mass cultivated or grows in abundance, like many spices or woods that are not normally avalible in abundance (like fruit tree wood) Rarethings like Cocoa beans, or ebony wood, or such BaseSomething that is naturally occuring and simply has to be grasped, woods, plants, foodstuffs and such ExtractsThings that are extracted from base plants, Surgars, resins, honey, and such Multisteps Complicated substances that require significant alchemical equipment to produce as well as other ancilary chemicals and steps to produce the end product, while the creation powers allow you to produce the end result one still needs the knowledge to produce it before the power can work So we have a "creation check" and a "knowledge check" The creation check would only apply to using the power to create something The knowledge check is 5 less than the creation check and represents if the character knows about the substance. Not everyone knows about say, chocolate, and of those that do few would know all the steps to refine it from the bean. So for example we take the arms and equipment guide Borage 0.02 Caraway 0.02 Chives 0.02 Anise 0.03 Bergamot 0.03 Costmary 0.03 Cumin 0.03 Dillweed 0.03 Mint 0.03 Horehound 0.04 Parsley 0.04 Angelica 0.05 Hyssop 0.05 Marjoram 0.05 Mustard seed 0.05 Clary 0.08 Basil 0.1 Coriander 0.1 Fennel seed 0.1 Garlic 0.1 Horseradish 0.1 Lovage 0.1 Sage 0.1 Salt 0.1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Sweet cicely 0.1 Thyme 0.1 Woodruff 0.1 Woodruff 0.1 Lemon balm 0.2 Oregano 0.2 Fenugreek 0.3 Juniper 0.3 Liquorice root 0.4 Rosemary 0.5 Cardamon 1 Cinnamon 1 Tarragon 1 Laurel 4 Rose hips 5 Poppy seed 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ginger 10 Cubeb 15 Cloves 20 Mace 25 Turmeric 25 Turmeric 25 Nutmeg 30 Pepper 30 Saffron 65 . . . . . . . . . So sort by cost. Half the List is Common the next third is Uncommon and the last sixth is rare. Since these are (mostly) plants the Dc would range from 10/15/20 and 15/20/25 for extracts
RadicalTaoist 12-01-06, 01:39 PM	Use any race besides gnome, make up for the lack of racial bonus by someone using Aid Another on your Craft (Poisonmaking) check. Problem solved.
Jaid 12-01-06, 05:49 PM	Use any race besides gnome, make up for the lack of racial bonus by someone using Aid Another on your Craft (Poisonmaking) check. Problem solved.how do you assist someone in the process of drawing material from the astral plane and shaping it according to your desires?
Lokiyn 12-01-06, 07:34 PM	(Minor creation doesn't draw on the astral) Anywho can someone with better link-fu check this out for me. I use link power, expend my focus, Chose power A and B, Power B goes off on the next round. The Target for Power B is the Same As Power A (Unless Power A has no target) Now if i read this correctly, Even though the Target changes Range is unaffected. If range was affected then one could say, 3pp Control Flames (torch Medium Range away) Linked to Minor Creation (something Flammable) to Snag control of a torch then Dump (CL*7.4) Gallons of something flammable or explosive onto the torch. But although its not mentions i assume it still uses the power of (b) rather than A. Something i saw that looked amazing was Call Item (no target) linked to Fabricate (choose target) for some insanely fast fabrication for 8pp. So it looks like that with Psicrystal Affinity(gain Psicrystal) + Bonus Essentia (Gain one point of Essentia) + Psicrystal Containment (hold a second Focus) + Midnight augmentation (call item) Use call item to call a block of wood (1 pp gets you up to 40 cubic feet, 3pp gets you up to 4000 cubic Feet) Linked to fabricate which then targets the (4.4-5.8)^3 block of wood and its instantly shaped into the desired form (firewood 1cp per 20lb, shrugs closest i could find) Call item wood amount C(i) Gp(v) Units Pounds Volume dimension 1 1 100 2000 40 3.419951893 3 100 10000 200000 4000 15.87401052 5 1000 100000 2000000 40000 34.19951893 Fabricate EffectsCL Vol Dimensions 9 90 4.481404747 10 100 4.641588834 11 110 4.791419857 12 120 4.932424149 13 130 5.065797019 14 140 5.192494102 15 150 5.313292846 16 160 5.428835233 17 170 5.539658257 18 180 5.646216173 19 190 5.748897079 20 200 5.848035476 So in game this might look like a psion Uses Call item to create a Wall of wood 15 feet by 10 feet tall by about 2.16 inches thick (27 cubic feet), this stops enemy x temporrarily. The next round the fabricate kicks in and then encases something in a 10 foot diameter sphere You spend 1pp+7pp= 8pp total and one Foci, and Link power and the sphere persists for 10 min per level or until you stop gripping it for more than one round. The biggest complaint with this would be about the item calling. If thats two much of an issue one could simply build said pannel before hand so that a representative example of the item exists, then you delare, i want a handled wood wall. So for all you FMA fans here you go. for the Fanatics, go away. Self note (http://www.reade.com/Particle_Briefings/spec_gra2.html)
smrtgmp 12-01-06, 08:29 PM	Black Lotus Extract at low, low levelI assume you'd still need to make the neccessary craft check, so at the lower levels it would still be difficult to obtain.
InkBlot 12-02-06, 02:51 PM	how do you assist someone in the process of drawing material from the astral plane and shaping it according to your desires? By reciting the recipe (as best you remember) for the poison. What with concentrating on shaping ectoplasm into the right materials, it's easy to forget exactly how the poison is made and accidentaly create an entirely inert substance. So get a friend to help you. "It's three parts sodium carbinate, right?" "I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be calcium carbinate." "Oh, right. Thanks."
Lokiyn 12-02-06, 04:23 PM	Which now screams we need to develop a type of Schema. Craft Geode You can create a unique Geode Prerequisite:Access to any (Creation) power or spell. Benefit: You can create a Geode of a given material. Etching a minor Geode takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. The base price of a creation Geode is is caster level × 400 gp). To etch a Creation Geode, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price. in addition you must pay for The cost of one dose or sample of the material to be embeded into the Geode.ML (Variable); [i]Creation Geode; Minor Creation or Major Creation or Fabricate, or Greater Fabricate; Price (Varies); Weight 1 lb. Each Geode when used negates the need for a craft check to produce the item or material. However the maximum caster level of the power or spell when in use is limited to the caster level/manifester level of the geode. For example a Launch has the dimensions of 15/5/7.5 For a volume of 562.5 Cubic Feet, Now that has a displacement of 187.75 Cu Feet water or 11,625 lb, the ships weight is Displacement less cargo So 3625 (seems a lot doesn't it) So now we take oak which seasoned is .59-.93 So the cubic feet of wood needed is 63-99 Cubic Feet.so turn that into an item Launch Geode:CL/ML 10; Craft Geode; Fabricate; Market Price 4500gp; Cost to Create 2500 Gp + 160 Xp. So with this item and access to a pile of wood you can cast fabricate with the item as a focus and convert the wood into launch without needing to make the Dc 15 Craft (Boatbuilding) [stormwrack pg84] check. but is limited to Manifester level 10 on fabricate while using that item http://www.geoclassics.com/chrysocolla_sphere_$235_front.jpg
Artifax 12-02-06, 07:33 PM	Assuming that your average strand of adventuring rope is 1 inch in diameter, you would be able to create 183.3 ft/CL of rope with Minor Creation. If you wanted some 1/2 inch diameter cord, you could create 733.3 ft/CL of it. If you wanted to make a hemisphere with a 1-inch thick shell, just look at Lokiyn's Sphere Diameter chart. Your hemisphere will have dimensions of your CL + 1 according to the chart. For example, a hemisphere with CL 1 will have a radius of 17 inches and an open volume of 2.05 cubic feet, or 44.03 gallons. You can use the hemisphere as a bowl to carry liquids that you create out of Minor Creation. Not too shabby.
Lokiyn 12-02-06, 08:47 PM	Thanks for reminding me of that. Added a Spheres/Hemispheres By Internal Volume Chart Ok, So here is what i need from everyone. What Common Geometric Shapes (Other than Those Listed) Does everyone want or need with this in terms of shapes. Also what does everyone want Information wise on Minor/Major creation and the Fabricate powers. Also what does everyone think about the rough Dc table above (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10786356&postcount=14) Cubes, Spheres, Hemisphers, Cylinders, Tubes, ...??? For example Link power allows for instantaneous shaping of material (A Powers manifesting time is the time a power need to to come into effect. Link power states that The power is manifested on your next turn. This basically means that the link power (due to its vague wording) allows the manifesting time to drop to zero) So if we start at manifester level 8 (the minimum level necessary to pull off a linked fabricate) one can so something like summon a wooden block (a la call item up to the necessary size for manifester level) then the next round create a conical spike the listed length, Instantly (as far as my understanding of link power goes.) Then we get the following TableCL Length of Spike 8 25.46479089 9 28.64788976 10 31.83098862 11 35.01408748 12 38.19718634 13 41.3802852 14 44.56338407 15 47.74648293 16 50.92958179 17 54.11268065 18 57.29577951 19 60.47887837 20 63.66197724
castlemike 12-03-06, 01:52 AM	Some really nice points. Minor creation is useful but you seem to be forgetting it lasts one hour per level and the Effect description: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter up to 1 cubic foot a level. Some of your descriptions seem to be exceding the Fabricate limitations. You create "a" nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter, linen clothes, a hemp rope, a wooden ladder, and so forth. (Linen clothes the only plural description). Attempting to use any created object as a material component in a spell causes the spell to Fail. So you can't use Minor Creation to Make Raw Materials for Fabricate or Major Creation because that is the component material. Read the last part of the spell description for Minor Creation and Fabricate in both books. Even crafting magical items has a daily limitation of 1,000 GP a day. A good common sense guideline is limiting the effects to a day or a week's worth of one man's work. A simple ladder to climb an obstacle, a simple bridge to cross a gully, a simple raft or boat to cross a river or lake. Linen clothes not a Noble's Outfit. Your PC starts selling bad alchemical substances to NPCs it should have a Bad Effect on the PCs in the campaign world.... Reputation (Untrustworth Thieves so much fewer patrons and jobs, Enemies (Relatives, Hirelings, Public Officials, Minor and Greater Lords, Law Enforcement (Public and Private) you are messing up economies).
Tempest Stormwind 12-03-06, 01:55 AM	Even crafting magical items has a daily limitation of 1,000 GP a day.Right, and the GP limit doesn't apply to minor creation at all.
Lokiyn 12-03-06, 02:25 AM	i'm trying to see what you are declaring as a problem. Minor creation doesn't last; Doesn't matter items don't need to last long, just long enough. Fabricate, No its more complicated and simpler than that You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material. Thus, you can fabricate a wooden bridge from a clump of tress, a rope from a patch of hemp, clothes from flax or wool, and so forth. Creatures or magic items cannot be created or transmuted by the fabricate spell. Product, Products, such as ladders, and rope can be made of multiple parts as long as the whole is in the cubic foot limit. Also psionics has Greater Fabricate. Fabricate (b): Sigh Fabricate, Psionic Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 4 Display: Material Manifesting Time: See spell text Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: Up to 10 cu. ft./level; see spell text Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 7 As fabricate (page 229 of the Player’s Handbook), except as noted here. Notice something missing? Psionics hasn't material Components, Matter is a target not a component, of the psionic version. when did i ever advocate producing alchemical compounds? I didn't, what i said was that for the purpose of this thread, knowledge of chemistry is limited to the knowledge of alchemists. They don't know what sulphuric acid is, atoms and chemical bonds are beyond them, they do know however about Oil of Vitriol, to us its sulphuric acid, to them they got it by distilling Green Vitrol, an extract of iron vitriol and brimstone. and if they didn't explode they got a nasty smelling liquid that could etch metal or maybe explode. Your not making alchemist fire, your making alchemical substances, like paint. as for npc's i direct you towards this Link (http://www.zogonia.com/zogoniaarchive/zogonia062.html) As for Gp limit, i can't even guess as to where you are getting that.
Artifax 12-03-06, 03:37 AM	Here are some useful minor creations that don't require alchemy or poisonmaking: Adhesive: Resin Clear solid: Amber. It's not quite as good as glass, but it gets the job done. Disguise bonus: Cameleoweave clothing Flammable substance: Rosin Hindering substance: Molassas Itching powder: Rose hips Lubricant: Rapeseed oil Painkiller: Poppy extract Rope: Hemp Rubber: Latex Sleep drug: Henbane Waterproofing: Birch or Spruce Weapons and armor: Bronzewood Here's a quesion for you, Lokiyn: How many yards of linen cloth would fit in a cubic foot?
castlemike 12-03-06, 03:48 AM	Probably should have quoted separate posts. Post #17 You can not "Fabricate" items from "Minor Creation" material attempts would automatically fail as per description regarding failure of spells (Psionic Power) for attempting it. The psionic minor creation material would be the fabricate "spell component" material in the fabricate spell and so the psionic power would fail No wooden walls from Minor Creation Material you would have to use existing natural wood. Second IMO difficulty would probably be harder than trying to create a "Wall of Stone" around opponents since that spell doesn't require a skill check to make the wall and as per page 300 of PHB opponents would be entitled to a Reflex save to avoid. Depending on the size unsupported 1" wooden walls could probably be easily breached by most fighters. Personally I prefer limiting it to one week's worth of work for a single individual craft check working 8 hours for a day or for a week. IMO that is pretty reasonable for something taking less than a minute. Regardless of how many cubic feet of material left particularly Druidic Infusions to hold a spell and Druids as Alchemists using Herbalism in Masters of the Wild. Things like Vegative Alchemist's Fire at 20 GP a Flask, Antitoxin at 50 GP a flask are open to abuse by interpretation. All the examples were simple items. Linen clothes, Wooden Bridges). Even crossing a simple bridge you are not going to want much less than 2" by 4" boards so every cubic foot gives you 4" Deep, 1 " Wide, 4' Long piece of bridge because you will need load bearing weight and supports will cut down from material to span at 20' or less going longer would require support (arching and buttressing as per Wall of Stone spell to bear the weight of travellers crossing it without breaking as the midpoint would be the weakest spot). 7 - 12" wide is a DC10 Balance check, 2-6" is a DC 15 Balance Check.
castlemike 12-03-06, 04:18 AM	i'm trying to see what you are declaring as a problem. Minor creation doesn't last; Doesn't matter items don't need to last long, just long enough. Fabricate, No its more complicated and simpler than that Product, Products, such as ladders, and rope can be made of multiple parts as long as the whole is in the cubic foot limit. Also psionics has Greater Fabricate. I disagree. In Psionic Fabricate the display is what you are creating from the Raw "Material" but which cannot be from Minor Creation in Post #17 In the Fabricate Spell the Raw Material is the spell component. As per description in psionic and magical minor creation the Spell (and thus the psionic power Fabricate) Fails when using material created by minor creation (Magical or Psionic). You can't use Minor Creation to create lumber so you can use Fabricate to make it into something else which is what it looked like one of the recent posts was alluding to #17 and the Call Item (I'm aware of call weaponry or armor but not Item and probably shouldn't have assumed you meant Minor Creation). Sure you could make a wooden wall with Minor Creation a skill check but I would think it would be harder than trying to trap some one with a Wall of Stone (No Skill Check but target or targets still receive a Reflex Save)
castlemike 12-03-06, 04:52 AM	Here are some useful minor creations that don't require alchemy or poisonmaking: Adhesive: Resin Clear solid: Amber. It's not quite as good as glass, but it gets the job done. Disguise bonus: Cameleoweave clothing Flammable substance: Rosin Hindering substance: Molassas Itching powder: Rose hips Lubricant: Rapeseed oil Painkiller: Poppy extract Rope: Hemp Rubber: Latex Sleep drug: Henbane Waterproofing: Birch or Spruce Weapons and armor: Bronzewood Here's a quesion for you, Lokiyn: How many yards of linen cloth would fit in a cubic foot? I can see some minor uses but this is a temporary power mostly in a pinch. No clothes or weapons or rope make some. IMO it would be nice for making a small wooden shelter possibly surround by a small wall. How often do they need to make glass/amber (I could be mistaken but it sounds like jars for cheap flammable liquids for attacking on the fly) or waterproofing. Why aren't the PCs wearing camo clothing? It should have better modifiers than the linen clothes you can make on the fly. Same for weapons and armor except in a pinch they should have better. How much is molasses going to really hinder movement? Just have a sorcerer or wizard take grease or sticky or cast web or shadow conjuration. Minor creation has a range of 0' and it sounds like you are trying to be creative with attacks. So how much extra damage does your PC take when the NPCs Fireball him after creating Rosin or Gust of Winding the PCs after they make itching powder? IMO making jars fillled with itching powder or flammables would be separate power uses, three if they have rubber seals.
castlemike 12-03-06, 05:27 AM	Lets double check things (just for accuracy) Ok So Cubic Foot of Water =62 pounds Taking that we multiply by the Specific gravity of Ice (.917) Cubic Foot of Ice = ~56.85 Pounds / 2.2 Divide By 2.2 to convert pounds to Kilograms Cubic Foot of Ice = ~25.84 Kilograms or ~25842.72 Grams Heat of Fusion = 335.5 Joules So only considering phase changes we then we use 8,670,235 Joules or 8,670.24 k Joules Take this value and divide by 10 (the amount of fire damage) We then get 867.02 K Joules per Point of Fire damage or 207 K Calories. So we seem to at least be on the same page with the numbers. So for comparison we take Nitroglycerin. 4 C3H5(NO3)3 -> 12 CO2 + 6 N2 + 10 H2O + O2 + 5656 kJ (1488 cal/g) So we get 1.488 K Calories per Gram of nitro which is 6.225792 K Joules per Gram of energy The average stick of dynamite is 1 inch in diameter and 8 inches long. So a volume of 6.28 cubic inches, ¾ of which is nitroglycerin from what I can gather. So about 4.712 cubic inches. Nitro’s specific gravity lends it to ~70.06 Pounds per cubic foot, so / 1728 to get pounds per inches .040544 pounds per cubic inch so about 0.191059 Pounds or about 2.9 ounces. Let’s make it three. Pounds to grams gives us about 86.84 (87) Grams of nitro. So the average stick of dynamite deals 540 K Joules or .62 points of fire damage…… That can’t be right. Hmmm finding a proper value is going to be difficult if we only use energy for one degree C per Cu Feet 56.854 Pounds Ice per Cubic Foot 25.84272727 Kilograms 25842.72727 Grams 25842.72727 Joules 25.84272727 K Joules 6.176560056 K Cal 2.584272727 K Joules per Point of Fire Damage Uh 208.956 Points of damage for a stick of dynamite.... Well anyway i thinking we are going to need to abandon the Damage points to Joules conversion as fairly unworkable. So what i was thinking about for Dc's was something like this Dc Material 10 Common Base Materials 15 Uncommon Base Materials 20 Rare Base Materials/Common Extracts 25 Uncommon extracts 30 Rare Extracts/Common multisteps 35 Uncomon Multisteps 40 Rare Multisteps Since its impractical to list a dc for every single material in existance we generalize So we have 6 categories of item. CommonSomething like pine or oak in a temporate zone, apples or other common foodstuffs uncommonSomething thats not mass cultivated or grows in abundance, like many spices or woods that are not normally avalible in abundance (like fruit tree wood) Rarethings like Cocoa beans, or ebony wood, or such BaseSomething that is naturally occuring and simply has to be grasped, woods, plants, foodstuffs and such ExtractsThings that are extracted from base plants, Surgars, resins, honey, and such Multisteps Complicated substances that require significant alchemical equipment to produce as well as other ancilary chemicals and steps to produce the end product, while the creation powers allow you to produce the end result one still needs the knowledge to produce it before the power can work So we have a "creation check" and a "knowledge check" The creation check would only apply to using the power to create something The knowledge check is 5 less than the creation check and represents if the character knows about the substance. Not everyone knows about say, chocolate, and of those that do few would know all the steps to refine it from the bean. So for example we take the arms and equipment guide Borage 0.02 Caraway 0.02 Chives 0.02 Anise 0.03 Bergamot 0.03 Costmary 0.03 Cumin 0.03 Dillweed 0.03 Mint 0.03 Horehound 0.04 Parsley 0.04 Angelica 0.05 Hyssop 0.05 Marjoram 0.05 Mustard seed 0.05 Clary 0.08 Basil 0.1 Coriander 0.1 Fennel seed 0.1 Garlic 0.1 Horseradish 0.1 Lovage 0.1 Sage 0.1 Salt 0.1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Sweet cicely 0.1 Thyme 0.1 Woodruff 0.1 Woodruff 0.1 Lemon balm 0.2 Oregano 0.2 Fenugreek 0.3 Juniper 0.3 Liquorice root 0.4 Rosemary 0.5 Cardamon 1 Cinnamon 1 Tarragon 1 Laurel 4 Rose hips 5 Poppy seed 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Ginger 10 Cubeb 15 Cloves 20 Mace 25 Turmeric 25 Turmeric 25 Nutmeg 30 Pepper 30 Saffron 65 . . . . . . . . . So sort by cost. Half the List is Common the next third is Uncommon and the last sixth is rare. Since these are (mostly) plants the Dc would range from 10/15/20 and 15/20/25 for extracts Take a minute and reread the psi power and minor creation the spell descriptions again. You need a material component of the material you are creating. A bit of hemp to make rope and so forth. You are interpreting it as a Temporary Skill based power that is more powerful than Limited Wish (1,500 GP or 30 pounds of Pepper) or True Creation a Level 9 Spell losing 1 Exp per 5GP of created materials Sure the created material is the "Material" Display but the power functions as the spell Minor Creation and you need a material component of the the material you are creating (Your Focus). There are No Skill checks for manifesting except for Making Complex Items with the material. The power intent was not for a PC to make lots of cubic feet of cocoa beans at 50 GP a pound from a single cocoa bean and sell them to a NPC before they disappear or Sturdy, Sealed, Non leaking JARS of Vegetative based Greek Fire from an amber, rubber stopped kerosene jar so your PC wouldn't have to purchase Greek Fire by rolling a Skill check. Unfortuneately the power doesn't specifically prohibit it either just common sense reading the Limited Wish/Bend Reality and True Creation (Psionic and Magical) Spell/Power Limitations. There is no Gunpowder in ECS maybe DC100 to discover it.
Jaid 12-03-06, 11:27 AM	Castlemike, you aren't getting it. minor creation, psionic, is a PSIONIC POWER. it has no material components. it requires no focus. so is psionic fabricate. no focus required, no material components required. in both cases, the finished product is not the material display. material displays can be suppressed so that they cannot be detected... unless you wish to suggest that psionic fabricate can create undetectable objects, then clearly the resulting object is *not* the material display. and they are not trying to dig up ways to ruin the game or make the DM cry. they are just trying to make a guide to what you could possibly do with minor creation. you can help, or you can tell them all it's a bad idea, whichever you choose, but sitting there telling them that in your campaign you would screw over people for being creative and imaginative is not particularly pertinent to this discussion. they're not asking for social, economic, or other consequences to the use of minor creation... they're saying "hey, look at all the cool stuff we can do." and in any event, imo PCs should never be arbitrarily punished for their actions. sure, if they walk down the streets shouting at the top of their lungs that they have poison for sale, their rep will take a hit. but if they conceal the fact that it's them, there would be no effect... this isn't a video game where action X gets you reputation - 1 no matter if anyone was there to see it or not... if people have no way of finding out (and to people capable of making the DC 35 check, it's probably not too hard to disguise themselves in some way or another), then there is no reputation penalty.
Lokiyn 12-03-06, 11:36 AM	POWERS DO NOT REQUIRE MATERIAL COMPONENTS Secondly, read the books psionic powers are not fancy spells, they are separate and have thier own rules and governings. Display When a power is manifested, a display may accompany the primary effect. Simple rules here, the material is not the display the material is the effect. You say look at the power? Please do Minor Creation, Psionic Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 1 Display: Material Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: 0 ft. Effect: Unattended, nonpsionic, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 1As the minor creation spell, except as noted here. Level: Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 minute Range: 0 ft. Effect: Unattended, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Notice the Difference, Material components do not exist in the psionic paradigm. Powers do not use arcane dances and babbleing, they operate by pure will alone. Thats 99% of your arguement shattered on the cold hard facts of reality. and please don't quote enormous amounts of text when your only looking at a line or so. Also in your examples (vegetable based greek fire) you underestimate the complexity of some materials, thats the purpose of this thread, Can i make greeks fire? No you can't. however there are some materials made from plants that are flammable and stick and might work in a pinch but aren't necessarily as good as the item "Alchemist Fire"
Artifax 12-03-06, 12:10 PM	No clothes or weapons or rope make some. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that you cannot make clothing, weapons, or rope from Minor Creation? In that case, I would have to disagree. Clothing, weapons, and rope could be considered complex items, and thus could be created during the casting of Minor Creation with a successful skill check. How often do they need to make glass/amber (I could be mistaken but it sounds like jars for cheap flammable liquids for attacking on the fly) or waterproofing. An event where my party needed waterproofing once came up. You simply never know when you will need something. It is impossible to make glass with Minor Creation as it is made mostly from sand. Amber is similar to glass in that it is transparent, a good insulator, and rather fragile. Amber jars certainly could be useful. Why aren't the PCs wearing camo clothing? It should have better modifiers than the linen clothes you can make on the fly. Same for weapons and armor except in a pinch they should have better. Indeed, you could create a Forester's Cloak (from A&E) with Minor Creation to use with hide checks. Cameleoweave clothing provides a bonus to disguise checks, not hide checks, and can be found in ECS. Bronzewood is superior to normal steel and can be used to make breastplates, banded mail, splint mail, half-plate, and full-plate. Bronzewood can also be used to make metal weapons. How much is molasses going to really hinder movement? Just have a sorcerer or wizard take grease or sticky or cast web or shadow conjuration. It's up to your DM. Many good DMs reward creativity and humor. Minor creation has a range of 0' and it sounds like you are trying to be creative with attacks. Bingo. I am trying to be creative. Minor Creation is an extremely versatile power and can be used in nearly any situation. If your party somehow lost all their equipment, create some bronzewood weapons and armor until your party can retrieve their original equipment. Since Minor Creation has a casting time of 1 minute and a range of 0, its better used out of combat to prepare for whatever you might face, or to create the right tool for the job. So how much extra damage does your PC take when the NPCs Fireball him after creating Rosin or Gust of Winding the PCs after they make itching powder? IMO making jars fillled with itching powder or flammables would be separate power uses, three if they have rubber seals. Again, it's up to your DM. Making jars filled with another substance, of course, requires more than one casting, and I never said otherwise. Try to have fun with this power. Here's a challenge: You, along with a collection of 100 NPC warriors, must defend a small farm against a seige until such time as reinforcements can arrive. The warriors know how to fight, but have no equipment of their own at all, but you have been given a Rod of Minor Creation with a CL 10. Per casting, that's 10 cubic feet of substance that lasts 10 hours. The enemies are a band of 100 orcs as found in the MM. You have 8 hours to prepare before the attack. Sounds like fun.
Lokiyn 12-03-06, 02:28 PM	Here's a challenge: You, along with a collection of 100 NPC warriors, must defend a small farm against a seige until such time as reinforcements can arrive. The warriors know how to fight, but have no equipment of their own at all, but you have been given a Rod of Minor Creation with a CL 10. Per casting, that's 10 cubic feet of substance that lasts 10 hours. The enemies are a band of 100 orcs as found in the MM. You have 8 hours to prepare before the attack. Sounds like fun. i've done this, I and a warlock (both level 7ish) in three days eliminated approximately 75,000 members of an army with guerilla tactics. Basically we where hire to help defend a city from a 100k man army, 4 members of the party decided to wander off and examine the town, i and the warlock looked at each other and hightailed with remounts to get the 60 miles to the army and start delaying the army. Fire solves many many problems Tactics Invisible warlock slips minor creationed poisons into food supplies and water. Morydan Tea proved to be fatal as cubic feet of powder was seeped in water then flash boiled (flat pans over oil to produce clouds of poisonous smoke) Oil soaked fields, Grass Fires Ariel Raids with Contact Poisons, It was a slaughter, the only thing that kept us from finishing them off was the dm ruled that after being awake for 60 hours we were about to pass out even with drinking coffee ectract (grind Boil and filter, Boil off water till you get a sort of super expresso) *edit Aerial raids, mermaids were not directly harmed in this game.
InkBlot 12-03-06, 04:28 PM	No clothes or weapons or rope make some. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. He's saying "[if you have] no clothes or weapons or rope [then] make some."
Kiklio 12-03-06, 06:16 PM	Wouldn't a masterwork tool grant a +2 circumstance bonus to your Craft check? Assuming you can form the material around normal tools that ordinary craftsmen may slave away at, and that any information regarding a substance is useful, here're some suggestions for tools. The schema/geode idea is an appropriate idea for complex items or truly secret recipes if they are only activated by a certain command word. I can envision rival families of shaper alchemists or shaper chefs hunting for the other's crystal-inscribed secrets. Adventure hook? Masterwork Tools -Botanist's Fieldguide -Apothecary's Tome -Alchemist's Lab -Smithy's Schematics -Smithy's Anvil -Bowyer's Vise -Carpenter's Rule -Trapsmith's Gearlog -Spicer's Samplebook -Farmer's Almanac -Molds and Crucibles for Goldsmiths, Silversmiths, Cast Iron Workers, Bellmakers, etc. -Baker's Implements (Cups, Sifters, etc.) -Perfumist's Samplebook -Brewer's/Baker's/Cook's Secret Recipe -Distillation Coop -Inventor's Sketchbook -Engineer's Calculus -Carpenter's Bob -Medical Toxicology Manual
castlemike 12-04-06, 12:14 AM	Both Psionic Minor Creation and Fabricate refer to spells for the guidelines on how they work. In the Minor creation spell description it states you need a small sample of the material you are creating, a thread of hemp for your rope example. (It also states that created material cannot be used in another spell or it will Fail. (You guys are ignoring this by creating raw material to be used with psionic fabricate to make other items) Magic and Psionics are supposed to be basically interchangeable in most worlds look at the text for Magic Mantle in Complete Psionic) That is why you do not need to make Alchemy or Herbalism or Knowledge Nature Skill Checks. PCs only need Craft checks for Complex Items. Your PC is duplicating existing material. He doesn't need to know what it is made of. He just needs a small sample to duplicate it temporarily with ectoplasm. Lastly there is no example of creating a pricey valuable item just things like linen, rope Not Flammable Oils or other Exotic Substances which is how you are making the two powers better than Limited Wish or True Creation. Fabricate You convert material of one sort intop a product that is of the same material. A wooden bridge from trees, a rope from a patch of hemp. Creatures or magic items cannot be created. The quality of the items is commensurate with the quality of the material used. Material The original material which costs the same amount as the raw materials to craft the item to be created. (No Freebies Here to prevent abuse like this board) If you guys are going to abuse the power descriptions at least penalize your PC 1 EXP per GP of value. The intent of the power is not so you can get creative and excede the power of a Limited Wish or True Creation. Sure then it is probably the greatest first level power.
Tempest Stormwind 12-04-06, 12:21 AM	Both Psionic Minor Creation and Fabricate refer to spells for the guidelines on how they work. In the Minor creation spell description it states you need a small sample of the material you are creating, a thread of hemp for your rope example. (It also states that created material cannot be used in another spell or it will Fail. (You guys are ignoring this by creating raw material to be used with psionic fabricate to make other items) Magic and Psionics are supposed to be basically interchangeable in most worlds look at the text for Magic Mantle in Complete Psionic)Except NO PSIONIC POWER EVER INVOLVES A COMPONENT. I do not need a leather thong to manifest Psionic Freedom of Movement. Do note that this doesn't limit Fabricate either, since while the raw materials are the component of the spell, they're the *target* in the power.That is why you do not need to make Alchemy or Herbalism or Knowledge Nature Skill Checks. PCs only need Craft checks for Complex Items. Your PC is duplicating existing material. He doesn't need to know what it is made of. He just needs a small sample to duplicate it temporarily with ectoplasm.No, he doesn't. Powers have no components. The power reaches into the astral and condenses plant matter from it.Lastly there is no example of creating a pricey valuable item just things like linen, rope Not Flammable Oils or other Exotic Substances which is how you are making the two powers better than Limited Wish or True Creation.Except they're not permanent and we aren't selling them. Likewise, it's limited in what it can do.Fabricate You convert material of one sort intop a product that is of the same material. A wooden bridge from trees, a rope from a patch of hemp. Creatures or magic items cannot be created. The quality of the items is commensurate with the quality of the material used. Material The original material which costs the same amount as the raw materials to craft the item to be created. (No Freebies Here to prevent abuse like this board)Do note that it's the TARGET in the power, man. If you can understand any form of polymorph, why can't you understand this?If you guys are going to abuse the power descriptions at least penalize your PC 1 EXP per GP of value.Oh, sure, houserule it while we're at it.The intent of the power is not so you can get creative and excede the power of a Limited Wish or True Creation.1) You're not a designer. 2) We aren't using it to do ANY OF THAT. Get that through your skull. Clever use of a low-level power isn't the same as using a high-level power.Sure then it is probably the greatest first level power.It's up there. If for no other reason than the magic version is significantly higher level.
Lokiyn 12-04-06, 01:04 AM	Minor Creation Minor Creation, Psionic Conjuration (Creation) --VS-- Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Sor/Wiz 4 --VS-- Level: Shaper 1 Components: V, S, M --VS-- Display: Material Casting Time: 1 minute --VS-- Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: 0 ft. --VS-- Range: 0 ft. Effect: Unattended, nonmagical --VS-- Effect: Unattended, nonpsionic, object of nonliving nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level 1 cu. ft./level Duration: 1 hr/level (D) --VS-- Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None --VS-- Saving Throw: None SR: No --VS-- Power Resistance: No Power Points: 1 Display When a power is manifested, a display may accompany the primary effect. This secondary effect may be auditory, material, mental, olfactory, or visual. No power’s display is significant enough to create consequences for the psionic creatures, allies, or opponents during combat. The secondary effect for a power occurs only if the power’s description indicates it. If multiple powers with similar displays are in effect simultaneously, the displays do not necessary become more intense. Instead, the overall display remains much the same, though with minute spikes in intensity. A Psicraft check (DC 10 + 1 per additional power in use) reveals the exact number of simultaneous powers in play. There is no way i can make it any clearer p.s. Dc Material 10 Common Base Materials 15 Uncommon Base Materials 20 Rare Base Materials/Common Extracts 25 Uncommon extracts 30 Rare Extracts/Common multisteps 35 Uncomon Multisteps 40 Rare Multisteps Since its impractical to list a dc for every single material in existance we generalize So we have 6 categories of item. CommonSomething like pine or oak in a temporate zone, apples or other common foodstuffs uncommonSomething thats not mass cultivated or grows in abundance, like many spices or woods that are not normally avalible in abundance (like fruit tree wood) Rarethings like Cocoa beans, or ebony wood, or such BaseSomething that is naturally occuring and simply has to be grasped, woods, plants, foodstuffs and such ExtractsThings that are extracted from base plants, Surgars, resins, honey, and such Multisteps Complicated substances that require significant alchemical equipment to produce as well as other ancilary chemicals and steps to produce the end product, while the creation powers allow you to produce the end result one still needs the knowledge to produce it before the power can work So we have a "creation check" and a "knowledge check" The creation check would only apply to using the power to create something The knowledge check is 5 less than the creation check and represents if the character knows about the substance. Not everyone knows about say, chocolate, and of those that do few would know all the steps to refine it from the bean. This material was an attempt to formalize some sort of rough guidelines for minor creation for dm's. While a player does not need to make a craft check for basic materials like wood or foods, the player must make a craft check for complex items. The intent of the chart above is to produce a reasonable chart for a dm to use (as a houserule of course) to gauge the difficulty of an item that has neither craft check nor knowledge check. So taking the guidelines in the phb as a start Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions). We start with 10 as a base for most plants and then raise the dc by 5 for each step of rarity. Not everyone knows about Luhix weed or the rarer woods (like mahogany). Then we add in a extra to dc based on the complexity of the alchemical reactions needed to represent the increasing levels of skill need to extract more purified compounds using alchemical processes. +10 for Single step extractions and +20 for complex multistep reactions often involving multiple reagents. Then we use that same result as a rough meterstick for craft checks for complex chemical substances. Its not reasonable to need a craft check for a lantern and not a craft check for asprin. For example Willow is a common tree so everyone should know it (unless its not native to the area) Dc 10 Its inner bark is an extract of the tree so Dc 15 to know and craft just the bark (or less depending on if the dm considers inner bark to be unique enough to justify complex item checks) The active extract Salacin is a 25 owing to its complex multilayerd production process and Asprin would be worth an ad hoc +5 for 30 since its an even more complicated process to convert Salacin into a product that doesn't cause intestinal complications. Or as the dm sets it. Its probably worth noting that willow bark is probably already included in healers kits and doesn't need an individual write up. however large doses of asprin are poisones, and concentrated non toxic doses might be worth noting as giving a slight bonus (+2) to resist inflamitory diseases, such as Cackle Fever Demon Fever, Filth Fever, Mindfire, Red Ache. However should exacerbate (-2) diseases that affect the digestive tract (when used as willow bark or Salacin)
castlemike 12-04-06, 01:31 AM	Minor Creation Minor Creation, Psionic Conjuration (Creation) --VS-- Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Sor/Wiz 4 --VS-- Level: Shaper 1 Components: V, S, M --VS-- Display: Material Casting Time: 1 minute --VS-- Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: 0 ft. --VS-- Range: 0 ft. Effect: Unattended, nonmagical --VS-- Effect: Unattended, nonpsionic, object of nonliving nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level 1 cu. ft./level Duration: 1 hr/level (D) --VS-- Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None --VS-- Saving Throw: None SR: No --VS-- Power Resistance: No Power Points: 1 There is no way i can make it any clearer Let me make it clearer. The three of you are being very selective in how you interpret how Psionic Minor Creation and Psionic Fabricate work. You forgot to include and apparently do not bother to read further for Psionic Minor Creation (PSI): As minor creation (page 233 of the Player's Handbook), except as noted here. Sure there will be a Material Display but simply reading the Magical Minor Spell description it indicates you need some of the material you are creating (an original source your power is copying) and that material can not be used as a spell component. (An excellent example is Fabricate which uses raw materials as the spell component both Minor Creation and Fabricate were written with specific limitations you guys choose to ignore). The basic premise is magic and psionics are interchangeable. See the text description under Magic for a Divine Mind. In the end it's your game and if you want to abuse the power definitions hey have fun. It would be interesting to see if you guys could convince an experienced DM that the powers works the way you say it does in tournament play though. I'll stop posting here.
Lokiyn 12-04-06, 02:06 AM	In the end it's your game and if you want to abuse the power definitions hey have fun. It would be interesting to see if you guys could convince an experienced DM that the powers works the way you say it does in tournament play though. I'll stop posting here. So basically, you have decided to cut and run, calling on the mythical powers of "experienced dm's". I'm an experienced dm, and Tempest i know has stated that he dm's as well (although if i recall prefers to play). the psion Ialdabode merely needs to concentrate to manifest his inborn powers, drawing on his abilities by tapping a reservoir of mental strength. He has no need for messy material components, verbal cues, or awkward gestures. With the mental allocation of a few power points, he can draw fi re from thin air, move a boulder without touching it, catch a glimpse of the future, and communicate with others who are miles away. Psi-Like Abilities (Ps): The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures). Usually, a psionic creature’s psi-like ability works just like the power of that name. A few psi-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally. Armor never affects a psi-like ability’s use. A psi-like ability has a manifesting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability description. In all other ways, a psi-like ability functions just like a power. However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost BEHIND THE CURTAIN: POWER XP COSTS Some powers have experience point requirements although an equivalent spell might not. Powerful spells are often balanced by costly material component requirements. For powerful psionic powers, experience points are the balancing factor, under the assumption that 1 XP is roughly equivalent to 5 gp. Ah but you say, surely your quote is in error, for is powers are psi like abilities then they shouldn't have to pay the exp costs. Thats true except, as compared to spells xp isn't a component cost. Its an extra cost tacked on to the pp expenditure. XP Cost (XP): On the same line that the power point cost of a power is indicated, the power’s experience point cost, if any, is noted. Particularly powerful effects (such as bend reality and true creation) entail an experience point cost to you. No spell or power can restore XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot manifest a power with an XP cost unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you can, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for manifesting a power rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are expended when you manifest the power, whether or not the manifestation succeeds True psi like abilties on the other hand never pay power points, and thus never need to spend xp. Look, you were 13 when TSR published Dungeons and Dragons, And assuming you've been playing since 8th grade in junior high that means that you've been playing for 32 years. Now is it that hard to accept that in this instance you are wrong and possible using a shallow surface level understanding to base your judgements off of. As for transparency you clearly don't understand the concept The standard psionics system treats psionic energy and magic as mutually and equally vulnerable to a dispel magic spell or a dispel psionics power. Spell resistance protects against powers just as it protects against spells, while power resistance protects against spells as it does against powers. For example, a dragon with spell resistance 18 also has power resistance 18 against any power. Likewise, spells that protect against mind-affecting effects work against mind-affecting powers and vice versa. For a more detailed explaination see Psionics–Magic Transparency: Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions in the Player’s Handbook or the magic item descriptions in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics (unless the DM uses the Psionics Is Different option described later in this chapter). When the rule about psionics–magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications. Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.) All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa. The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura). Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.That is the extent of psionics equals magic. You are confusing Psionic effects (the rules) For Psionic Mechanics (your misunderstanding)
Tempest Stormwind 12-04-06, 02:22 AM	In the end it's your game and if you want to abuse the power definitions hey have fun. It would be interesting to see if you guys could convince an experienced DM that the powers works the way you say it does in tournament play though. I'll stop posting here. There haven't been official D&D Tournaments since... gods, I don't know when. The closest you can get nowadays is the RPGA, and if I wanted things like that, I'd just play Magic. (Lokiyn's correct: I have DMed, but I'm uncreative when in the hot seat and thus, regardless of my mechanical proficiency, I'm a lacklustre DM. I prefer to play -- and so long as I'm playing but a single character at a time, I get believable and comprehensive results there. Ask any of my table buddies -- several of them post here.) Psionic powers DO NOT have material components. It's just that simple. Lokyin provided an excellent and comprehensive proof of that. Now, look at Fabricate. Yes, the raw materials are the component -- but they're also the target. The power transforms them from one form to the other. Thus, the part about the component really doesn't seem necessary -- the magical fabricate makes them go *pfft* and suddenly you get your bridge. Meanwhile, the psionic version has no component -- BUT IT SHARES THE SAME BLOODY TARGET. Thus, instead of it going *pfft*, it transforms from one form to the next without an intermediate *pfft* phase. It's essentially a limited form of Polymorph Any Object if you look at it that way, limited only to effects that normal workers could produce. Why is this that hard to follow?
smilingcyclops2002 12-19-06, 09:34 PM	Well, now that we've cleared the room of nay-sayers and ego-heads, I have a few questions dealing with minor creation. I'd like to continue this very useful thread in the original intent--to help players understand this very useful power. 1) What mundane equipment requires a craft check? The power description is very clear that arrows require a weaponsmithing check, so if we are crafting items out of bronzewood, then any weapon or armor would likely need a weaponsmithing check. But what about an amber lantern? Or a wooden grapple? What is sufficiently complex to require a check? 2) Once we figure out if an item requires a check, which craft check should be used? Weaponsmithing/armorsmithing is pretty obvious. But What about a lantern made of amber? Assuming you wanted to make something like that, and it required a check, what check would you use? I would suggest that craft(Sculpting) would be the best check for any mundane item not specifically spelled out in the craft skill description. This makes sense in my imagination of what minor creation is like: the psion closes her eyes, visualizes the item to be made, and draws out a blob of ectoplasm. She then begins to slice away material, much like carving wood or clay, only in a mental way. Then, a minute of crafting later, viola! A lantern. Thoughts? Is craft(sculpture) what you are thinking? I, unlike some people I won't mention, am open to opposite opinions and will regard your statements on its own merits, not the merits of my own D&D ego. Many thanks.
Lokiyn 12-19-06, 11:22 PM	I'm fairly certain it would fall underVery simple item (wooden spoon) Varies 5 Typical item (iron pot) Varies 10 High-quality item (bell) Varies 15 Complex or superior item (lock) Varies 20 For the Dc and the Craft Check would fall under (blacksmithing[for metal non specialty items]) and Carpentry[for wooden non specialty items]) There isn't really any set formula for determining the craft check. I believe most dm's look at it historicaly and think "did this item support an independent craft" In other words could someone make a living off of only that item and its varients (cooper, Wagoneer, Bowmaker) are all subsets of Carpentry. I've even seen this house rule. There are "main" categories of Crafts, Alchemy/Stonemasonry/Blacksmithing/Carpentry/etc (broad categories) Any skill which could fall under these categories can be made at a -4 check (non proficiency) if you don't have the exact skill (poisonmaking) but have the general knowledge (Alchemy) If you have the specific skill you may use that if it is higher than your general -4
carnivore 12-20-06, 04:32 PM	excellent guide....great resource thank you :D
Lokiyn 12-31-06, 11:00 PM	Added Opium Poppy to the Second post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10777330&postcount=2) Note that Morphine, Thebaine, Codeine, Papaverine, and Narcotine. Were all isolated After 1804 and are not suitable for most games. On the other hand they are distillable from milk of poppy by alchemical means and can be added, Laudanum on the other hand is almost as old as opium itself I'm trying to Write up substances based on the BoVD Drugs, however in a world with magical healing most of them are rather pointless, mechanically, although many of them have excellent Rp roles. And example of this is the Barbarian who carries a wineskin of laudanum to help offest the fatiuge of rage, Dammar on the other hand has been used once (by me) with salt to help preserve meat. I'm trying to get some texts on alchemy to see what substances they could actually produce with alchemy and convert that into dnd terms, But right now i'm trying to figure out how to convert an umbrella into a magic item and keep game balance. Its on the to do list though. Example Milk of Poppy: Milk of Poppy is a fluid runny sap derived from the seedpods of certain flowers. This comes in three forms MilkThe base raw form Seeda dried form in pellets LaudanumA diluted version mixed with wine, often called dreamwine, the dose for laudanum is a pint rather than an ounce. The Substance is fairly easy to obtain and available from most alchemical herbalists. Initial effect: Lethargy, -2 to initiative for the duration Secondary Effect: The character ignores the effects of fatigue, Stronger effects like exhaustion are not ignored.Side Effects: If more than one dose is taken in the thirty minute effect the character Gains their constitution bonus times their level in False hit points, These hit points count only for determining unconsciousness from nonlethal damage Side effects (cont.): Three or more doses in a 1 hour period act as a poison dealing (sleep 1 min/Sleep one hour) Fort 15 Overdose: If four or more doses are taken in an hour the character must make a fort save versus sleep as above in addition to another for save for poison damage (Con 1d10/Con 1d0) This New fort saves are 20 and each additional dose beyond four raises the dc by 2 Edit Belladonna vs Calabar bean *note* Added Catnip Note that i'm only adding plants that have proven biological/chemical effects.
hovnarr 01-04-07, 04:37 AM	Very cool guide Lokiyn, nicely done. :) Two questions: *What rank distribution in the Craft skill have you found adequate? It seems Craft (Poisonmaking) and Craft (Woodworking) would be of greatest interest. How many ranks do you devote to the craft skill to make this work well? Btw, can you take ranks in Craft (Alchemy) as a psion? *How certain can we be that the flora and fauna in a d&d world is exactly the same as "our own world plus fantasy elements", so to speak? Naturally, gross biochemical qualities shouldn't differ much - it should be very possible to derive some sort of liquid combustible from wood for example - but how can we be sure that all these species that you have researched exist and/or have the same effect in an environment with elves and dragons? As soon as you add something to an ecosystem or change a parameter, the whole is impacted, which could lead to the extinction or differentiation of entire species. Part of the recurring problem scientific exactness in a fantasy environment I suppose.
Lokiyn 01-04-07, 12:58 PM	Craft Alchemy works for almost any chemical compound, Poison can also be made with alchemy at a -4 penalty. So i normally do not take Craft Poison. So normally i choose Craft(Alchemy) Craft(Woodworking) Profession(Apothecary) Survival (if i can) Knowledge(Nature) (if i can) Profession(Apothecary) helps justify an extensive knowledge of herbals drugs and poisons was well as Knowledge(Nature). thats just *my* personal choice though. as for the question How certain can we be that the flora and fauna in a d&d world is exactly the same as "our own world plus fantasy elements", so to speak? We can't. Belledonna for example, in the real world is incredibly lethal. One leaf will kill the average human. In the dnd world however it deals strength damage which can not kill a human. At worst he is in bed for a Tenday healing. he's up and about by the 1st day. So basically all i can do is list the real world effects of materials and suggest optional rules that govern thier uses in the dnd world. In many cases the exact species isn't needed. For example Nepeta cataria Is the ideal plant for the production of Nepetalactone the main ingredient of its oils, however other members of the same Genus (Nepeta) also produce this chemical in differing amounts, so the exact species isn't important as you simply need more or less of the base matter to refine. Basically in the Second post, i'm gathering info Listing the real world effects, and occasionally suggesting possible in game adapatations. For example Above i took what i knew of poppy and its traditional uses and converted it into a dnd style drug. Which follows the real worlds effects. Pain Relief -> Sleep -> Death.
hovnarr 01-04-07, 02:46 PM	Seems reasonable. Besides, many supplements have info on poison and even drugs (I believe you mentioned BoVD before). You have never encountered trouble with non-spellcasters (i.e. manifesters) taking Craft(Alchemy)? I was thinking of the clause: 1 You must be a spellcaster to craft any of these items. (The Craft skill in the PHB) Strictly speaking, a spellcaster and a manifester are not the same thing, but in a world of magic/psionic transparency, there is little reasonable support to maintaining that any generic cleric can brew acid on his spare time, while a psion couldn't. (If I were the DM, I'd waiver the spellcaster requirement in its entirety though). Just wondering if any DMs ever raised their eyebrows re: this. Btw, I noticed that you don't seem to need a Craft check if the item is simpler to accomplish with Minor Creation than a complex item (DC 20). Any such gross plant extracts or wooden structures (walls) that have previously been discussed should be on or below par with acid and composite longbows as far as difficulty is concerned (DC 15, or "high-quality items"). What poisons are generally available at 15 craft difficulty? Anything useful at all (lethal food poisioning, anything contact) at that level, or are you forced to roll a skill check if you want to mean business as far as poison is concerned?
BenSan 01-04-07, 05:11 PM	The SRD does not say that you must be a spellcaster to gain ranks in Craft (alchemy), only that you must be to make items with it. For example, there's no reason anyone couldn't take five ranks in Craft (alchemy) to get a +2 synergy bonus to Appraise alchemical items. Since Minor Creation doesn't use the Craft system to make an item, but rather requires a successful skill check to manifest appropriately, you're not violating any rules by doing so without spellcasting ability.
cog_n_taz 01-05-07, 01:39 AM	First, amazing guide. I'll be using it when designing some new tricks with this power myself. GoodDragon1: You don't create the raw materials, you create the substance itself. Reread Minor Creation: To take 20 on manifesting it, you'd have to manifest it 20 times, which a first-level character cannot do. (Oh, and the gnome's bonus is on Craft(ALCHEMY) checks, not the required Craft(Poisonmaking). Ah, the Imperial system. I like seeing things like this just so I can remind myself how byzantine it is. I mean, weight as a fundamental dimension, rather than mass? And how were some unit conversion ratios decided, by hucking darts? :p (Of course, since D&D uses Imperial, someone's gotta deal with it... or just replace the whole thing with SI.) You gave TS help with using minor creation.....run, now.:P
Lokiyn 01-08-07, 04:44 PM	Three out of four Mental Treatment Drugs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm#sampleDrugs) from Unearthed Arcana are Plant Based. Mertoran Leaf provides a +2 to charisma for 1 hour and supresses personality disorders for 13, Each dose. All for 1 point of dex damage. If you want a character with multiple personalities this stuff is great. for example a Paladin who takes Mertoran Lead every morning when he prays and every night. While On the Leaf he is Paladin 11, When the leaf runs out he is Blackguard 10 Ex paladin 1, Neighter with any memory of the time spent as the other. (something odd for fun)
Diplominator 01-08-07, 05:16 PM	So, how many people have played in a game where the "you must be magical to make alchemical items" rule is actually enforced? Also, since that is the RAW case, why does pyrokineticist require C:A ranks if he most likely cannot use them?
BenSan 01-08-07, 05:21 PM	Out of curiousity, is ironwood still around as a special material anymore (rather than just a spell)? I recall seeing it back in the 3.0 days, but I don't know if 3.5 still has it. The potential usefulness of this with Minor Creation should of course be obvious.
Lokiyn 01-08-07, 05:36 PM	Material Source % Weight of Woood Paper PhB Rope PhB Leafweave RotW Darkwood DMG 50% Soarwood Eb 75% Wood PhB Livewood Eb 150% Densewood Eb 200% Bronzewood Eb 90% Listed Vegitative Materials (that i can find)
Jaid 01-08-07, 06:19 PM	i remember there were some in 3.0 faerun. most of them i thought were ridiculous, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. did any of that nonsense get into 3.5?
PhaedrusXY 01-09-07, 01:38 AM	I was just putting together a psion for the Core Colliseum, and decided to go with a Shaper and use this to make poisons (and maybe other stuff) before the fights. So I looked in here, and was horrified and shocked at just how much poison you can make with one manifestation of this power. Then I started thinking of what to do with it.... How about filling a barrel full of poison, with javelins sitting in it, and using Telekinesis to stab someone with 15 poisoned javelins every round? Or you could just throw 15 vials full of contact poison. I think they will hate me soon over there, if I ever make it to 5th level. :D
Lokiyn 01-09-07, 01:52 AM	oh yes its fairly horrific. Try Great Fortitude + Poison Healer My suggestion Shaper X/ Binder 1 (For Naberius) Naberius heals ability damage for you. While Poison healer allows you to consume minor poisons (Belledonna or any low save poison) to heal your Con modifier in damage. While its not much its main useful ness is a weird sort of fast healing. See anytime you are exposed to a poison you make a save then and 10 rounds later, If you take doses of poison that you are all but sure to save on (barring that 5% chance) you can get a wierd effect where you heal on rounds without doing anything. Its a wierd and largely pointless effect. Caltrops are fun, and Poison immunity (Champions of Ruin) is avalible at level 1.
PhaedrusXY 01-09-07, 12:40 PM	It is core only (SRD, XPH, PHB, DMG, MM1). Great idea with the caltrops, though. I'll certainly be loading up on those now. They should work very well when covered in poison, and dropped in the middle of a cloud from a Smokestick. :D
hovnarr 01-10-07, 07:33 AM	How about filling a barrel full of poison, with javelins sitting in it, and using Telekinesis to stab someone with 15 poisoned javelins every round? Or you could just throw 15 vials full of contact poison. Actually, this is what I use in my present psion build to overcome Anti magic/null psionics (I otherwise rely on constructs and metamorphosis). TK thrust offers a remarkable flexibility in effects depending on which projectiles you use (magical ones with a duration are ruled out here of course, but still). Just a simple barrage of 15 bottles of alchemist's fire, straight from your handy haversack, coming soon to a magic immune caster near you, is quite spiffy. You can also throw nets, acid, tanglefoot bags, poison coated weapons or caltrops as mentioned etc. And that's just the in-combat uses. All in all a great power that I had previously underestimated, and that has nice synergy with Minor Creation too.
psiphre 01-23-07, 12:26 PM	1ft^3=28316cm^3 28316cm^3=25965g 25965g=8672567J 86725667J=2072743 thermochemical calories 207274 thermochemical calories per point of fire damage, given the below assumptions. Or 207 nutritional calories. Double-check it if you want. This is one spectacular guide, Lokiyn. I'd appreciate Craft DC's most of all. Assumptions Most importantly, the ice starts at 0 degrees Celsius 1ft^3=28316cm^3 Density is 1g=.917cm^3 Heat of Fusion 1g=334J 1J=.239C I truncated at the decimal place after each conversion I was a little curious about this, so i did some maths of my own. 1ft^3=28316cm^3 right so far 28316cm^3=25965g right here too and then: The small calorie or gram calorie approximates the energy needed to increase the temperature of 1 gram of water by 1 °C. This is about 4.184 Joules. 25965g of water [edit: frozen water] raised 1 degree = 25965 calories = 108640.79 joules one "nutritional calorie", more commonly called a "kilocalorie, is (oddly enough) one thousand small calories. 25969 calories / 1000 = 25.969 kcal but that was for 10 points of fire damage. 25.969 / 10 = 2.5969 kcal per point of fire damage. or am I way, way off base here?
Kiklio 01-23-07, 05:22 PM	Raising the temperature of ice and melting it are two distinct physical changes. Raising the temperature of ice 1 degree requires approximately 2.09 Joules of energy per gram. This is the specific heat of the ice. Melting ice (which normally occurs at 0 degrees) requires approximately 334 Joules of energy per gram. This is the heat of fusion of ice. Melting does not change a material's temperature, just its phase. So, looking at that, your correction to my third step is incorrect because you're assuming that melting ice requires 1 calorie per gram because you assumed that melting means "raise the material's temperature by 1 degree". My analysis "melts" the ice by stating the amount of energy (in Joules) needed to melt the ice based on the pertinent value: the heat of fusion. I then convert Joules to thermochemical calories on a 4.18:1 basis. I then converted thermochemical calories to nutritional calories on a 1000:1 basis. I'm glad you're interested in this science, as it's relatively painless and has numerous applications (though not in D&D, apparently). You just didn't know about one concept. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer them.
psiphre 01-23-07, 05:48 PM	Raising the temperature of ice and melting it are two distinct physical changes. Raising the temperature of ice 1 degree requires approximately 2.09 Joules of energy per gram. This is the specific heat of the ice. Melting ice (which normally occurs at 0 degrees) requires approximately 334 Joules of energy per gram. This is the heat of fusion of ice. Melting does not change a material's temperature, just its phase. [...] I'm glad you're interested in this science, as it's relatively painless and has numerous applications (though not in D&D, apparently). You just didn't know about one concept. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer them. aha, thanks for the clarification. I obviuosly haven't taken any science since high school.:blush:
Shalaska 03-28-07, 02:42 PM	The beauty of Phase changes, for an instant the specific heat of the substance goes to infinity and then the phase has changed and the specific heat returns to a real number. That is actually what the computers that search for the exact melting and vapor point of a chemical do. I loved Organic Chemistry for facts like that!
Kiklio 03-28-07, 08:20 PM	Infinity is a real number. The Omnisificer counted to infinity...twice.
ravidubey 05-09-07, 10:14 PM	You can not use Minor Creation to create poison. Poison is an alchemical substance derived from plant matter, it is no longer plant matter. The fibrous tissues that qualified it as "plant" are long gone by the time you get poison. I mean after all, crude oil is just decayed plant matter and diamonds could have been plant matter decayed and compressed over centuries. I should be able to create diamonds, right :rolleyes: ? Sure they only last a short while, but I can do a lot during that short while. The cheese could literally never end. The intent of the spell, in case it actually matters to anyone posting on this thread, is to produce items made of plant fibers like hemp, cotton and of course wood.
Tempest Stormwind 05-09-07, 10:44 PM	You can not use Minor Creation to create poison. Poison is an alchemical substance derived from plant matter, it is no longer plant matter. The fibrous tissues that qualified it as "plant" are long gone by the time you get poison.Poison is not alchemical in D&D terms. When you get a poison such as black lotus extract (or a real-world drug like opium), it's just a plant product in the same way that a cotton shirt would be. The only difference is the nature of the tools and process used to construct it. I mean after all, crude oil is just decayed plant matter and diamonds could have been plant matter decayed and compressed over centuries. I should be able to create diamonds, right :rolleyes: ? Sure they only last a short while, but I can do a lot during that short while. The cheese could literally never end.With the exception that no process that can be subsumed with a Craft check could decay, fossilize, compress, and restructure a plant into a diamond. Minor Creation allows you to create complex things with a Craft check, and no Craft check can substitute in for millions of years of geological processes.The intent of the spell, in case it actually matters to anyone posting on this thread, is to produce items made of plant fibers like hemp, cotton and of course wood.You're the spell's original author now? Is that how you know its intent? If I write a spell saying that it "creates a bird" and do not specify anything else, even if I intended it to create a sparrow, someone could use it to create a diatryma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatryma), and it would function just fine unless the DM houseruled it. Unless I was involved somewhere with the person casting that spell, they would have no way whatsoever of knowing if it was what the intent of the spell was or not. (Perhaps I *did* intend it to create diatryma.) Intent is communicated through rules. Minor Creation comes from earlier editions. Unless you are E. Gary Gygax or Dave Arneson, which I sincerely doubt, do not speak of intent, for there is no way of knowing this. Speak only of rules. The rules say you can create vegetable matter, and that complex creations require Craft checks. In the case of, say, Black Lotus Extract, it is, by name, an extraction from the black lotus (likely from the seed or stem, or even possibly by grinding the leaf). The ONLY fundamental differences between using Minor Creation to make black lotus extract and using minor creation to create a black lotus (which you then use the Craft skill to create black lotus extract from) would be when you use the Craft check, and if you need a source of water and/or heat (it's evident that Minor Creation can create water, as I can use it to create a flower which will react the way it does because it stores water). With one, you use your hands. With the other, you use your mind. You don't complain about things like Telekinesis, do you? Or do you seriously have your manifesters walk over to rocks, pick them up, throw them, and say "I moved it with my brain!"? (I'm being hostile because you were both dismissive and condescending. People on this thread know what they're talking about, and this is NOT about breaking the rules or bending the game or anything of the sort. It's about making optimal use of the rules provided with us through the application of intelligence and knowledge about the world.)
leomunds_assistant 05-09-07, 10:48 PM	Hmmmm, If I fly overhead and drop 12 cubic feet of wood do you think that would hurt just a tad bit? I will have to work out a splinter damage system, Just kidding. Very nice ideas for uses with a level 1 power. I am not sure on this, but could you create a psionic item? It isn't magic now is it.. If that is the case you could make near epic shields and staffs at a very low level. DISCLAIMER: I wouldn't do this, just throwing it out their ;) :Edit: zomg I am nub, I really need to make educated posts. It specifically says you can't /kills self
CrimsonDeath 05-10-07, 04:24 AM	I am not sure on this, but could you create a psionic item? It isn't magic now is it.. Only if you use the "Psionics Is Different" variant... which I'm told nobody in his right mind does. Not twice, anyway.
leomunds_assistant 05-10-07, 07:40 AM	Me and my group actually do use the psionics is different. Hmmm. I think I can have some fun with this spell. :devil:
z_joker 05-17-07, 09:17 PM	This thread is great. I hadn't though about making poison with Minor Creation before. This will be really helpful, since I'm about to start playing as a 4th level warforged shaper. And since warforged are immune to poison... I can make it without worry. There are some interesting possibilities with this: create contact poison, then rub on oneself to teach grapplers a lesson, for instance. :cool:
Gavinfoxx 05-26-07, 04:35 PM	There are some interesting poisons that you can make with psionic minor creation... What I would do would be create, at low levels, some of the easy to create contact poisons, whatever you can find thats dc 20 and under... wraith sheen from arms and equipment guide, sassone leaf residue from dmg, malyss root paste from DMG, sleeping weed from arms and equipment guide, nitharit from dmg, anemis from arms and equipment... when you can reach dc 25, start adding oakdeath from dragon 301 to poisons, and you can start making terinav root from dmg and horror weed extract from arms and equipment, all the while adding oakdeath to them... of course when you can make a dc 35 check, you can make black lotus extract, of course enhanced with oakdeath. Also, see if you can get assassination weapons from the cityscape web enhancement, those help your poisons! And there are various other things to make poisons more effective... the poison-friend pod from dragon 322 is useful too... Edit: make that an asssassination (+1) toxic (+1) weapon. A toxic weapon keeps poisons for *two* attacks instead of one. its from drow of the underdark.
Millenia 05-26-07, 06:16 PM	I have a small question.... Would soil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil) be able to be made with minor creation despite minerals, or would major creation be a more appropriate power?
Kiklio 05-28-07, 02:28 PM	It depends. You can make part of soil. Much of soil can easily be described as non-living plant matter. However, soil is also comprised of things which were never parts of plants: rocks and metals. Minor Creation can create the detritus and refuse, and create some really useful materials, like peat. It cannot create sand, mud, dust, pebbles, or the like. Good question.
Lokiyn 05-28-07, 03:11 PM	I think Humus is what you are talking about, i think that technically you can create that.
Millenia 05-28-07, 03:57 PM	I see. Thanks.
Ralp 05-28-07, 04:53 PM	it's evident that Minor Creation can create water, as I can use it to create a flower which will react the way it does because it stores water I actually came to this thread looking for a way that a psion (or psychic warrior for that matter) can create water. I agree that minor creation can create plant matter with water in it, but not even major creation or true creation seem to be able to just make plain old water. (Although come to think of it, I suppose ice may qualify as a "mineral".) The closest effect I can figure out is to minor-create a chunk of cactus or something and squeeze the water out of it by some mundane means, but I don't even want to speculate what will happen to my desert-traveling party who quench their thirst this way, only to have the power's duration expire. Is there any psionic power that approximates the orison create water?
Millenia 05-28-07, 05:06 PM	Is there any psionic power that approximates the orison create water? Nope. However, you can try asking your DM to allow you to research an augmentation to Minor/Major Creation that would allow you to do so.
Lokiyn 05-28-07, 05:40 PM	ah, well what do you need the water for, there may be a way to work the effect another way Edit Ah, now i remember, Athas.org Darksun power Psychokinesis Level: Psion/Wilder 2 Display: Material and visual Manifestation Time: 1 round Range: 30ft Area: 30-ft radius burst centered on you Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 3 You draw all moisture within the area of effect as water in a single container. The amount collected depends on the local terrain type. Sandy wastes, dust sink, or salt flats: 1d3 -2 gallons (minimum 0). Rocky badlands, stony barrens, or boulder fields: 1d4 -1 gallons (minimum 1). Mountains or scrub plains: 1d6 -1 gallons (minimum 1). Verdant belts or forest: 1d8 +1 gallons. The manifester must hold the container while manifesting this power. If the container is too small to hold the water collected, or if it is leaky, the excess spills onto the ground. The power only collects uncollected vapor and droplets around the caster. Free standing water in a glass, pool, or other container is not collected. It does not adversely affect plants or animals in the area. The drying effect on any local flora becomes evident in the next few days, but most plants can survive the temporary loss of ground moisture.
Magon 06-28-07, 11:04 AM	http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i10/magon_p/lolcatsdotcomii3o5tqyqzkqa4gb.jpg
baltasar_basilius 06-28-07, 12:39 PM	Wow, i really dont know why some people get up on the wrong side of the bed. You can post your best argument against something, but if someone doesn't agree with you after a few posts... dont expect any change soon. You're just yelling for the purpose of yelling- if they want to call it/not call it components... its their fault. Anyway, thanks for the ideas guys. When I realized how much you can do with X cubic feet, and then went back and looked at greater psionic fabricate i was shocked. What are you looking to make with that power? Whole castles?
Gavinfoxx 06-28-07, 02:11 PM	I edited my post some! there are tons of things you can do with poisons... muahaha, contact poisons come mostly from plants! :D
PhaedrusXY 09-06-07, 12:39 PM	What about using Craft: Trapmaking with this power? What kinds of traps are made entirely of plant matter? I can think of a simple snare, but what else?
CrimsonDeath 09-06-07, 03:38 PM	What about using Craft: Trapmaking with this power? What kinds of traps are made entirely of plant matter? I can think of a simple snare, but what else? Swinging log on a rope? Falling spike trap? Crossbow with poisoned bolts? (I forget how complex you can make the item...)
PhaedrusXY 09-06-07, 04:43 PM	Swinging log on a rope? Falling spike trap? Crossbow with poisoned bolts? (I forget how complex you can make the item...)I think the difficulty is that the power says it makes an item. So it becomes a tricky question of when something is considered to be a single item, or a collection of items. So while a lenient DM might let you make a complicated trap that fires a spike that is coated in poison with one manifesting, a more strict one might not. And while we're at it: what are the ways to reduce the manifesting time of this? I know Link Power has been suggested, but in one thread on that feat, the consensus reached seemed to be that it didn't actually lower the manifesting time of the second power. Crawling Tattoos would work, but that could get expensive.
Nabuchadnezzar 12-24-07, 12:02 PM	I have a level 1 Human Shaper. Intelligence is 15, and with the +3 bonus granted by the right psicrystal, I have a +5 bonus on all craft check (+9 sculpting) If I had a +10 I could take 10 and create dc20 poisons automatically. Is there any item or clue to gain a +5 bonus, except spending points in craft (poisonmaking)? Or is it better to roll the dice every minute and hope for luck? Is there any interesting dc15 vegetal poisons?
Gavinfoxx 12-24-07, 12:16 PM	Blue Whinnis is an injury poison that is probably plant based... look at crystalkeep... it has a list of 3.0 and 3.5 poisons...
Nabuchadnezzar 12-24-07, 12:44 PM	crystalkeep? what is it?
InkBlot 12-24-07, 12:53 PM	Crystalkeep is a website. Google it.
Lycanthromancer 12-25-07, 02:54 PM	+4 - Int 18 +3 - Skill Focus: Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Poison) +3 - Psicrystal Affinity: Artiste +2 - Aid Another (Psicrystal) +2 - (MW) My Little Book o' Poisons +4 - Ranks in Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Poison) ------- +18 on Craft checks at level 1. Of course, you can also use other things to help, as well. +2 - Animal affinity +2 - Precognition Reroll Once - Second chance +4 - Greater precognition +2 - Aid another (schism) +2 - Skill synergy with Survival?
archerpwr 12-25-07, 02:59 PM	+4 - Int 18 +3 - Skill Focus: Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Poison) +3 - Psicrystal Affinity: Artiste +2 - Aid Another (Psicrystal) +2 - (MW) My Little Book o' Poisons +4 - Ranks in Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Poison) ------- +18 on a craft checks at level 1. MW tool and aid another... Files away notes for his own shaper (unfortunately my psicrystal is a nimble one and I'm not spending feats on skill focus).
DracoPhoenix 01-04-08, 02:44 PM	Daft question, but is there anything on the temperature of the product made? I mean, boiling sunflower oil would probably for a slightly more malevolent "bucket over the door" "prank" to play on the pursuing guard bad guys.
InkBlot 01-04-08, 02:49 PM	Nope. The power says nothing about the temperature of created items. I normally assume things come out at room temperature, regardless of how much heat/energy would be required to create the object you're pulling from thin air.
Lokiyn 01-06-08, 12:07 AM	Blast, thanks for reminding me to add a chart listing the heat needed to set some materials on fire. And some materials from faerun i gathered up Quick overview there is a fungus that raises the temperature within 20 feet of it by 10 Degree's Fahrenheit (~5.5 Degrees to Celsius), also it explodes if an open flame comes within 40 feet of it. Multiple patches could have a cumulative effect, since the effect is non magical and untyped Just as a quick note in addition, it looks like Dnd is more Linnaeus when it comes to kingdoms, rolling fungus and such under vegetative matter.
Lokiyn 01-19-08, 04:25 PM	Minor Creation and Faerun Books Cleared, Waterdeep Magic of Faerun Players Guide to Faerun 3.5 I’ll add more as I go through Faerun’s books, then start on Eberron Faerun as one of the oldest campaign settings has several unique materials that are available for minor creation One of the more unique materials available are the items known as Extraordinary Natural Items These items are naturally occurring plants and substances that are unique in that [qoute=MoF, Pg180]Unless otherwise noted, the special abilities inherent in these substances and items are extraordinary abilities, and they remain in effect even in areas where magic does not function.[/quote] Which is basically to say that these are natural and more importantly Nonmagical substances that produce effects similar to magic, but extraordinary in nature. I’ll list these below with the non mechanical sentences stripped out and exclude any items that are not valid minor creation materials, there are other materials that are equally valid but need a major creation at least to create, or only work in conjuction with other spells. However the only real item for interest is the fog rock which produces a fog cloud (not the spell but a mist that provides some concealment) Darkberry: Darkberries actually contain shadowstuff within their skins. When a ripe darkberry is broken or crushed, it creates a 5-foot-diameter circle of blackness for 2 rounds. Felsul Flower Oil: When the trees flower in early spring (and not all trees flower every year), the crushed petals can be made into a fragrant perfume that adds a +1 competence bonus on any Charisma-based checks made to persuade another (such as Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate) for 10 minutes. A single ounce of the oil provides 10 uses, and a typical tree provides 1d4–1 (minimum 0) ounces of perfume per year. Mule Pollen: When inhaled, the pollen grants a +2 bonus to the character’s Strength but inflicts a –2 penalty to his Intelligence and Wisdom. The effects last for 1d410 minutes. Mule pollen is mildly addictive. Each time a character inhales mule pollen, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 12). If he fails, he is effectively fatigued whenever he is not under the influence of mule pollen. This addiction can be removed with neutralize poison. Shadowtop Torch: The wood of the shadowtop tree burns more slowly (and cleanly) than normal wood. A torch of shadowtop wood burns for 2 hours and gives off very little smoke. Silverbark Sap: The sap of the silverbark tree is clear and slightly sticky. It acts as a (minor) natural antitoxin, granting anyone who consumes at least one ounce a +2 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison for 1 hour. Sleepweed Pod: Striking a target with a thrown sleepweed pod requires a ranged touch attack (range increment 5 feet). A target struck by a sleepweed pod must make a Will save (DC 12) or fall into a slumber for 1 minute. Weirwood: Any weirwood (or item created of weirwood) within an area illuminated by a magical light source (such as dancing lights, light, or continual flame) emits a gentle magical glow equivalent to a candle for 1d4+1 rounds after leaving the area of illumination. Also i'll put in tables for all the platonic solids for my own amusement.
Screams 02-29-08, 09:17 PM	So do I interpet all this as I can not make poison grenades and carry them forever. Meaning I will have to carry the materials...amber and poison material on me , then create in preperation of a fight, then make sure I use said poison and or grenade before the druation time is up. I am ok with that , just want clairification. So say the group needs to cross a chasim and a rope bridge would be nice. Do I need all the amount of rope required to produce a bridge or just the PP to make the bridge big enough?... or wooden bridge or whatever? Do I have to have enough material to make the specific item size... 1 yard of rope is a little short of a span of 25 feet to cross.
Screams 02-29-08, 09:27 PM	So do I interpet all this as I can not make poison grenades and carry them forever. Meaning I will have to carry the materials...amber and poison material on me , then create in preperation of a fight, then make sure I use said poison and or grenade before the druation time is up. I am ok with that , just want clairification. So say the group needs to cross a chasim and a rope bridge would be nice. Do I need all the amount of rope required to produce a bridge or just the PP to make the bridge big enough?... or wooden bridge or whatever? Do I have to have enough material to make the specific item size... 1 yard of rope is a little short of a span of 25 feet to cross.
CrimsonDeath 03-01-08, 12:32 AM	You only need the materials if you're using Fabricate. Minor Creation creates objects out of nothing (well, ectoplasm, but there's no practical difference). (Even the Minor Creation spell only needs a tiny amount of material, so you'd only need a few strands of hemp fibers to make a rope bridge.)
Screams 03-01-08, 03:00 AM	Ok sorry I'm still a ltiile lost here... So I can creat things out of thin air. Fire? it does have substance Water? same anything non living? isnce an Astral Construct is not really a living being, or is it? Couldn't I just use Minor creation to create a Minor astral construct? back to grenades... If I want to make poison grenades. what would be the alotted time necessary to create X amount? Amber container, with poison inside? How is it determined what I actually would know? Knowledge Poison? Knowledge Alchemy? Knowledge craft item? I mean I'm level 2 and it seems like if I can throw grenades at a monster or npc it could do more damage then a light crossbow bolt inless the bolt has the poison on it. The do I need Knowledge apply poison to put poison on something? sorry if this is rambling but I will need to explain this to the DM and make him agree with the process and result there of.
CrimsonDeath 03-01-08, 03:38 AM	Psionic Minor Creation can only create nonmagical objects. A Construct is a creature, so you can't create one. It can only create objects made of plant matter. Which means that fire and pure water are probably out of the question. (I'm not even sure those qualify as objects anyway.) If you want to create something complex, you need to make a skill check, which will probably be a Craft check. You should probably ask your DM which skill is relevant. For poison, it would probably be Craft (poisonmaking). Anyone can put poison on a weapon. However, unless you have the Poison Use ability (from the Ninja or Assassin classes, for example), you risk poisoning yourself. I think there's also a feat from Drow of the Underdark that lets you apply poison without the risk of poisoning yourself. I'm not sure what you mean by "grenade".
Screams 03-01-08, 04:30 AM	Ok so where is a full description of Minor creation Psionic? The one I have says it creates out of air. Nothing about needing any sample. It just makes 1 cubic foot per manifester level " unattended, nonpsionic, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter up to 1 cu. ft./ level " So I answer my construct ( magical) Nothing about only out of plant matter. I really would like to see the original intent of the spell. lol as I am reading all interpetations. If I read this correctly and by the description I have I can make ANYTHING, other then unattended( whatever that means), nonpsionic, or nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter as long as it does not create more then the limited amount per level. My interpitation of Nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter would be: I can create glass as it is nonliving plant matter, and nonmagical. Fire as it is nonmagical, nonpsionic, and nonliving plant matter. Not sure about the unattended. I better look that word up. Attend: To exercise attention : To pay heed. To be present, to be in readiness: to wait;followed by on or upon. To stay; to wait; to delay...heed, listen,give regard to, observe So Unattended? I'll need help here.... Not observe? not pay attention to? not be present? not wait? nonliving: Dead. as in dead plant material nonmagical: not having magical properties So a nonmagical object that is dead and has the base core atoms of plant material? So can a bridge of any solid matter ( since this is basically ectoplasm )( or nonliving plant matter) be created, formed and built, as long as I have the levels to produce enough material to create said bridge? As for grenades: I want to " Minor Creation, Psionic" an object ( container ), made of amber or glass or some thin material that will contain a contact poison that can be thrown at a npc or monster or whatever and break spilling the poison contents on said reciever of "grenade".
Screams 03-01-08, 04:37 AM	I am going to assume unattended means I don't have to hang around and take care of it or watch it or give a hoot what happens to it. I am sure I can hold it throw it or walk on it or even surround some one or thing with it. Nonpsionic: not sure here what they mean as it is created with psionic power from ectoplasm. Nonmagical nonliving plant material: no magical properties for sure. Nonliving plant material: so steel is out of the question? glass? amber? what is off the list here? Please break it down to the core products avaiable as I am seeing poison can be made as it is a nonliving plant material but the container will have to be of something if creating a "grenade" as opposed to a vat of poison you dip a javelin into, or a arrow or sword. Tired and I am losing it.
Lycanthromancer 03-01-08, 10:16 AM	Alright, Screams, I assume you don't have the Expanded Psionics Handbook. However, you can look mostly everything having to do with psionics and the Core 3 rulebooks (Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual, and the Player's Handbook) up in the System Reference Document, located in this link (http://www.d20srd.org). I'd suggest reading at least the Player's Handbook in full, if you know someone who has it, as it has the basic rules that the non-DM (Dungeon Master) players need to know. Here is:Metacreativity (Creation) Level: Shaper 1 Display: Material Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: 0 ft. Effect: Unattended, nonpsionic, nonmagical object of nonliving plant matter, up to 1 cu. ft./level Duration: 1 hour/level (D) Saving Throw: None Power Resistance: No Power Points: 1 You create a nonmagical, unattended object of nonliving, vegetable matter [out of solidified ectoplasm that you draw from the Astral Plane]. The volume of the item created cannot exceed 1 cubic foot per caster level. You must succeed on an appropriate skill check to make a complex item. Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail. This means you can create solid, liquid, or (possibly) gaseous materials made from nonliving plant matter. When you manifest psionic minor creation, the object you create appears at your feet or in some container you specify that is right next to you (unattended means you can't create something in your hand or in someone else's hand, or anywhere else on their body, such as in their backpack). You can create rope, wood (in pretty much any shape you like), plant-based poisons, pitch, coal, cloth, beer, plant-foods, and so on. You CAN create amber because it's solidified tree sap. You CAN'T create glass because it's not plant-based (it's made out of silicon, generally from melted sand), and you can't create fire because 'fire' isn't technically an object. You can set something flammable you create on fire, however. 'Nonmagical and nonpsionic' refers to the fact that you can't create an item with inherently supernatural properties, such as a +1 club of disruption or a bag of holding. It's basically mundane, magically inert material. Anything derived from plants is fair game. You could make something akin to water (such as aloe vera juice, which is very high in water content). Anything else is pretty much limited by your imagination and some common sense.
Screams 03-01-08, 04:50 PM	Thank you. That is basically the answer I am looking for. So 1 last question with parts. When you create something... Amber containers, of which I can specify the amount and size of. Or can I create only 1 up to a certain size. Can I create a combine of the object. Say a amber glass/container filled with something, beer or contact poison. Or must these be created on their own with a new manifesting of the power, then manually placed together or in this case into the amber container? Or say crossbolts with tips of a poison. Separate manifesting power usage or all in 1 casting?
Lycanthromancer 03-01-08, 10:12 PM	It does say a single object, so you're limited to one (created with a single substance, though composite objects *might* be possible), but you can create an object shaped like several bowls together, perforated for easy breakage at the right points to make several smaller bowls. You *might* be able to create, say, poisoned crossbow bolts, though that's subject to DM fiat.
turalisj 03-02-08, 02:07 AM	Major creation is a bit more usefull. Case in point, creating a bomb to blow open a building. Step 1: Use Psionic Major Creation to create a 9ft cube of sodium Step 2: Pour a little water on it. Step 3: Back away a bit and cover your ears.
Lokiyn 03-02-08, 02:50 AM	As an aside to the above Minor creation and its bretheren suffer a lot in that most items have no volume only weight. As a result use the following Choose the items primary component, Wood/Stone/Metal If the item is wood Divide the items weight by 31 pounds to get the volume of the item itself in cubic feet. If the item is Stone Divide the items weight by 156 pounds to get the volume of the items If the item is Metal Divide the item by 500 pounds to get the volume of the item. (these are rounded rough averages of the most common stones/metals/woods for their pound per cubic foot weight.) For the above "rope bridge" we assume that we are using three rope strands for support with 4 foot long link pieces in a "V" arrangement to keep the lower rope on hold. The "V"'s are positioned every two feet. So that plus the volume of rope per length means that boiled down the formula for a rope bridge thus described would be about. (576*ML)/(7*Pi)= the length of any rope bridge per manifester level. Of course the bridge is unsecured and a pile of rope. and you need to calculate the tension force so that the weight combined with the pull doesn't exceed the ropes limits. For ease of calculations assume that the strength check to break is the same as exerting as much force as a "drag" by that strength. so to break the hemp rope you would need to exert 3000 pounds and a silk rope 3500 pounds. I don't care to do the equations for tensile stress but lets assume that your character isn't dumb enough to try and cross a bridge that won't support him. .... Also sodium doesn't work "quite" like that
CrimsonDeath 03-02-08, 03:29 AM	Silk? Can you even make silk with Minor Creation?
Lokiyn 03-02-08, 03:42 AM	no, but i think "somewhere" in one of the books or dragon magazines there was mention of a type of rope made from a plant that was "as strong as silk" so i tossed it in there.
Lycanthromancer 03-02-08, 10:44 AM	Silk is made by silk worms, though you can make cotton, flax, hemp, linen, manila, etc. Ya can't make wool, either, which is kind of a shame, since wool is almost impossible to burn. Even firefighters use it, because it might scorch a bit, but it doesn't sustain a flame.
Screams 03-02-08, 03:05 PM	So basically Minor is nice untill the level 5 Major version. where stone and metal are added. What is the best Minor Creation, Psionic that you think is the most useful for offense or defense or just to have around for X hours or less? Amber grenades with poison in them seem god, but contact poison is a slow poison? or is it considered a instant damage?
Lycanthromancer 03-02-08, 03:16 PM	Depends on the poison. Most poisons have immediate damage (say, paralyzation or 1d4 Con damage, for instance), and secondary damage (the same, or different) 1 minute later. Psionic creation (all versions) has innumerable uses. Giant Wooden Hamster Ball (tm), toolbox, moneysaver, quick and dirty create food and water, weapons, clothes, disguises, rope, keys, containers, blankets, pillows, jewelry (amber, HO!), and so on. Depends on what you want and what you want it for.
Lokiyn 03-02-08, 03:23 PM	Also as a free Suggestion spell effect as an extraordinary ability. Mordayn Vapor (“Dreammist”)'s secondary effect is that When the dose wears off, the user must succeed at a Will save (DC 17) or fall under a compulsion to do whatever is necessary to repeat the dreammist dose (treat this as a compulsion similar to that of a suggestion spell). This compulsion lasts for 1d4 hours before fading. Its not terribly useful, but when combined with a bard putting on a show and strategically placed devices to waft steam among the crowd you could in theory get quite the soccer hooligan effect. (realistically you are probably going to kill people through OD on the steam.)
CrimsonDeath 03-02-08, 04:58 PM	no, but i think "somewhere" in one of the books or dragon magazines there was mention of a type of rope made from a plant that was "as strong as silk" so i tossed it in there. Well, there's Earthsilk ropes, from Races of Stone, which is made from Maiden's Hair fungus and is actualy stronger and thinner than silk rope (although heavier and not as flexible).
The_Mess 03-02-08, 10:50 PM	For the record, sodium isn't as explosive as its reputation. Mixing sodium and water will blow your hand off, but it won't blow a hole in a wall. This led to an embarassing incident when a British science series (i forget the name) was disappointed with the actual results of sodium explosions and had to "spruce up" their footage by adding some nastier bangs. Now, the heavier elements in the sodium family have a bit more bang. Potassium is the next down and a bit bigger, but if you really want to make things go boom, you'll need rubidium, caesium, or francium. Mind you, those last two are both significantly radioactive, so if cancer occurs in your campaign, beware! Francium doesn't occur in nature but must be technologically created, so whether minor creation could produce it is a DM call. And now you know.
turalisj 03-03-08, 06:59 PM	Well, the spell says any element and francium is an element. Of course, that saying you could theoretically produce 9 cubic feet worth of plutonium. :D
Lokiyn 06-17-08, 08:16 PM	Not for any real reason other than a bump with a table for fabricate's largest dimensions for the following solids. Fabricate (Ft) ML Cube Sphere 7 4.12 2.55 8 4.3 2.67 9 4.48 2.78 10 4.64 2.87 11 4.79 2.97 12 4.93 3.05 13 5.06 3.14 14 5.19 3.22 15 5.31 3.29 16 5.42 3.36 17 5.53 3.43 18 5.64 3.5 19 5.74 3.56 20 5.84 3.62 Greater Fabricate (Ft) ML Cube Sphere 11 10.32 6.4 12 10.62 6.59 13 10.91 6.77 14 11.18 6.93 15 11.44 7.1 16 11.69 7.25 17 11.93 7.4 18 12.16 7.54 19 12.38 7.68 20 12.59 7.81 Also as an added aid, for those of you who use fabricate a lot you can use the following to quickly gauge your creation ability using a material. Long story short if you determine composition of the item (easy since fabricate works off of a base material) you can ballpark it's volume with a fair degree of accuracy. The following table lists the maximum size workable by fabricate by weight, rather than volume, for the three major materials. (of course this is the average, some materials need modification from the base as noted in their material entries) Fabricate Tons ML Wood Stone Metal 7 1.092 5.46 17.472 8 1.248 6.24 19.968 9 1.404 7.02 22.464 10 1.56 7.8 24.96 11 1.716 8.58 27.456 12 1.872 9.36 29.952 13 2.028 10.14 32.448 14 2.184 10.92 34.944 15 2.34 11.7 37.44 16 2.496 12.48 39.936 17 2.652 13.26 42.432 18 2.808 14.04 44.928 19 2.964 14.82 47.424 20 3.12 15.6 49.92 Greater fabricate Tons ML Wood Stone Metal 11 17.16 85.8 274.56 12 18.72 93.6 299.52 13 20.28 101.4 324.48 14 21.84 109.2 349.44 15 23.4 117 374.4 16 24.96 124.8 399.36 17 26.52 132.6 424.32 18 28.08 140.4 449.28 19 29.64 148.2 474.24 20 31.2 156 499.2 Note that the limits on the material effected are based on the initial casting for the raw materials, depending on the views of the user, the products final dimensions may or may not be beyond the initial range of the power.
turalisj 06-17-08, 09:38 PM	Does anyone know the amount of radiation 9cubic feet of plutonium would give off? :D
CrimsonDeath 06-17-08, 10:20 PM	I'm no nuclear physicist, but I'm guessing that nine cubic feet of plutonium would be a supercritical mass (which means an atomic explosion).
turalisj 06-17-08, 10:54 PM	That works too. Anyone know the damage a nuke would cause?
CrimsonDeath 06-18-08, 03:01 AM	Enough.
Lycanthromancer 06-18-08, 03:25 AM	Probably less than the locate city bomb.
CrimsonDeath 06-18-08, 04:10 AM	Plutonium has a density of about 19 grams per cubic centimeter. Nine cubic feet of it would weigh about five tons-- over ten thousand pounds. A critical mass is about thirty-five pounds. For the sake of comparison, Fat Man (the bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki) had about fourteen pounds of plutonium (albeit under significant compression), about 1/780 the amount of plutonium we're talking about. I wouldn't be surprised if the explosion could destroy the crust of an Earth-like planet. But like I said, I'm not a nuclear physicist, so I don't know just how big a boom we're talking about here.
turalisj 06-18-08, 07:57 PM	Probably less than the locate city bomb. Except this would put a whole new spin on 'nuking'. :D I wonder if you could manifest a quickened 'Telekinetic Sphere' before the blast goes off :P
Jaid 06-21-08, 08:54 PM	Except this would put a whole new spin on 'nuking'. :D I wonder if you could manifest a quickened 'Telekinetic Sphere' before the blast goes off :P be on the safe side: start with a telekinetic sphere, and then burrowing power out of it. honestly, given the result of failure to do so, i think it's worth 2 powerpoints, 1 feat, and your psionic focus ;)
turalisj 06-21-08, 09:56 PM	Good point... I can't wait to try this! :D Wait, it is legal right (in the game sense)?
Jaid 06-23-08, 08:11 PM	that is a legitimate tactic, if that's what you're asking.
turalisj 06-23-08, 08:30 PM	Oh yes, time to bring the hell. Atomic hell that is. If I used Quintessence on the plutonium, would it freeze it in time enough to keep it from going off so I could, say, stick it in the sewer system of a city?
Lycanthromancer 06-23-08, 08:48 PM	1.) Use psionic major creation to create 15 cubic feet of plutonium inside a shell of quintessence. 2.) Bury under a city. 3.) Microwave for 8.5 billion years. Careful; contents may be hot.That said, no you can't manifest psionic major creation inside a shell of quintessence. If you're outside the quintessence, your line of effect is blocked, so you can't manifest the power inside of it. If you allow for a 1' hole (the minimum needed to successfully manifest through), the plutonium would explode the instant you finished manifesting the power, and you wouldn't have time to close up the hole, even with someone readying an action. If you tried manifesting from inside the quintessence shell, you'd be cut off from the timestream, and you'd be stuck inside until someone let you out. Furthermore, you'd be hard-pressed to escape in time to avoid being vaporized unless you had a contingency or fiery discorporation going. The only way I could see for this to work is if you were incorporeal when you manifested it on the material plane, inside the shell. Whether it had the 50% miss-chance or not would depend on if your DM counted time-stoppage and radiation as magical (as it likely would be in, say, Krynn).
turalisj 06-23-08, 09:41 PM	Either way, it'd be fun to unleash....
Lokiyn 06-24-08, 07:04 PM	Just to point out, "undergoes fission" and "Explode" are not synonymous terms. The critical mass of plutonium would not explode, as far as i understand the physics involved, but would rapidly decay under it's own base radiation each atom affected producing more heat and more radiation, but not at a rate to produce an explosion. As far as i can tell you would wind up with an incredibly incredibly hot ball of plutonium that would swiftly heat up to about 3200 Degrees celsius and proceed to melt a hole as deep as possible until the molten metal disperses and it drops below critical mass, probably poisoning the local ground water with plutonium isotopes for generations. However with further thought, it is possible to generate the pressure needed for a density increase for supercritical reactions needed for fission or even fusion. Using Resilient Sphere or Telekinetic sphere you can combine multiple castings to produce a double shelled container. as in the above, say you produce a 15 kg mass of plutonium you have a Homunculus hold it (or place some fine sized creature on it to target, then encase the metal in the smallest sphere you can. Then you can encase the sphere with a second sphere with a Homunculus in the outer zone. Have the creature activate a decanter of endless sand or water that is constructed from riverine. The outer region will rapidly fill up with sand (or water) At absolute minimum (Resilient Sphere) you have 7 minutes before each shell collapses. the first shell collapses 1 round before the outer, exposing the center to the effects of say, 350 cu feet of sand compressed into a 3.6 cubic foot area. The Sand compressed far beyond its natural values will have rapidly heated up and became a dense dense superheated gas. the rapid expansion into the new area will create a pressure spike increasing the density of the material presumably in a manner almost identical to a standard explosive. the whole stew has 1 more round to boil and bubble before the second shell collapses releasing the whole brew to the environment. Of course the real problem is that minor and major creation don't last as long as the sphere's but there are multiple ways around that. If any player did do this and you as a dm let them pull it off, i suggest using the rules from "When the Sky Falls" (http://montecook.com/mpress_Sky.html) subsitution the device for the meteor for damage.
turalisj 06-24-08, 07:19 PM	Ok, if I get it straight, it goes like this: Have pixie hold plutonium manifest telekinetic sphere around pixie create a shell of plutonium around telekinetic sphere rinse and repeat for increased effects dismiss each sphere at the same time That about it?
Lokiyn 06-24-08, 09:00 PM	Not Quite Create/obtain Plutonium/fissile material below it's critical mass Place tiny creature (insect/mouse/etc) with plutonium. Create minimum sphere (1 ft diameter) in the next round have a hommonculus/expendable minion stand next to the sphere with a riverine Bottle of endless sand/ Decanter of endless water Sphere them with the smallest sphere possible. the minion activates the unbreakable item flooding the area around the first sphere with Sand/Water/Salt water 1 round before failure of the external shell the internal shell falls. Because of the pressure caused by compressing (CL*40) cubic feet of water or (CL*50) Cubic feet of sand into a roughly 3-15 cubic foot area, the materials involved are under immense pressure and likely have undergone a phase change to a gas or higher state The inner sphere collapses, as the materials rush in to the area the matter in the first sphere is immediately compressed, rather than over time, increasing the density pushes the fissile material from subcritical to supercritical, causing much if not all of the material to undergo fission. During that round it's possible that beyond fission, the excess heat would induce fusion (more likely with water, as hydrogen and oxygen are easier to fuse than silicon, although its still possible for silicon) Round X+1; The outer sphere collapses releasing the witches brew of super heated materials and the energy contained by the sphere resulting in at the very minimum an immense shockwave as highly compressed material decompresses all at once.