Monk and Mindblade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monk and Mindblade [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lseelba
05-26-07, 02:33 PM In the past it has been explained that throwing a mindblade is a special, difficult thing to do. This is the reason cited for a Soulknife not being able to throw two short sword mindblades even if he is holding one in each hand (a stupid ruling IMHO especially if the Soulknife has a high BAB and TWF feats...but I digress).

My question is can a monk with snatch arrows catch a mind blade and throw it back, or is throwing mind blades a Soulknife only thing. If it's soulknife only, can a monk/soulknife catch another soulknifes mindblade and throw it back? Or is a mindblade only usable by the one who creates it? :confused:
forsaken1111
05-26-07, 02:40 PM The mindblade is a semisolid blade of energy, so in theory you COULD catch it. I'd rule against throwing it back though, saying it simply dissipates in your hand.
Tempest Stormwind
05-26-07, 02:48 PM In the past it has been explained that throwing a mindblade is a special, difficult thing to do. This is the reason cited for a Soulknife not being able to throw two short sword mindblades even if he is holding one in each hand (a stupid ruling IMHO especially if the Soulknife has a high BAB and TWF feats...but I digress).

My question is can a monk with snatch arrows catch a mind blade and throw it back, or is throwing mind blades a Soulknife only thing. If it's soulknife only, can a monk/soulknife catch another soulknifes mindblade and throw it back? Or is a mindblade only usable by the one who creates it? :confused:

He can deflect it easily, and if he had the right feat (Return Shot) he could catch it and toss it back as part of the deflection. But he couldn't catch it, pocket it, and throw it later.
Amoris Dendidorm
05-27-07, 03:46 AM A Mindblade can dismiss his mindblade with the speed of thought! The monk that is faster than the mind is yet to be born:P If he exist I believe he/she wouldn't bother with catching and throwing back a silly mindblade.

So yes, I believe a monk could dodge or even catch the Mindblade and if for some miraculous circumstance the blade would not be dissmissed, than it could be thrown, but if that Mindblade should be hit by his own blade he should get maximum damage for being an idiot!
Tempest Stormwind
05-27-07, 04:03 AM A Mindblade can dismiss his mindblade with the speed of thought! The monk that is faster than the mind is yet to be born:P If he exist I believe he/she wouldn't bother with catching and throwing back a silly mindblade.Never heard of Diamond Mind, have ya?

Or, for that matter, precognitive magic? It doesn't matter how fast the attacker is, if the defender knows where the attack is coming from before it happens and moves to intercept...
forsaken1111
05-27-07, 09:36 AM Never heard of Diamond Mind, have ya?

Or, for that matter, precognitive magic? It doesn't matter how fast the attacker is, if the defender knows where the attack is coming from before it happens and moves to intercept...

It would still take time for the mindblade to travel back and hit the soulknife.

The point is... the soulknife should never by hurt by his OWN MIND. And that's all the mindblade is... it takes a throught to dismiss the mindblade, so it could be said to be a free action. Free actions can be taken any time, which would include "ITS ABOUT TO HIT ME IN THE EYE OH NO GO AWAY!" time.
lseelba
05-27-07, 01:17 PM It would still take time for the mindblade to travel back and hit the soulknife.

The point is... the soulknife should never by hurt by his OWN MIND. And that's all the mindblade is... it takes a throught to dismiss the mindblade, so it could be said to be a free action. Free actions can be taken any time, which would include "ITS ABOUT TO HIT ME IN THE EYE OH NO GO AWAY!" time.

Immediate actions can be taken any time. Free actions have to be taken on one's turn. ;)
Amoris Dendidorm
05-27-07, 04:12 PM The thrown knife would still have travelling time to the monk and then back again to the Mindblade. Unless there are extreme effects going on (time acceleration or sum such), the Mindblade should always be able to dissmiss his own creation before impact!

If you used magic or powers to create the above mentioned thesis, than it would be (imho) a waste of resources and would bring to much debate at the gametable. So as a DM I would say no! no way! no way in h.!!
forsaken1111
05-28-07, 12:46 AM Immediate actions can be taken any time. Free actions have to be taken on one's turn. ;)

Uh... we're talking about a soulknife throwing a mindblade at someone, thus we're assuming it IS his turn.

I'm sure there's a way to throw something during someone else's turn, but the normal way to do so is by attacking during your turn.

If you want, just call it an immediate action.
Crusher217
05-28-07, 05:15 PM This does seem kind of irrelevant because their is a difference between catching an arrow and a mind blade. An arrow is not semi-solid (it's solid) and piercing not slashing and it would be like catching a semi-solid blade shaped quantity of acid, you would still be hurt by it, and then the mindblade would make it dissipate.
forsaken1111
05-28-07, 05:30 PM This does seem kind of irrelevant because their is a difference between catching an arrow and a mind blade. An arrow is not semi-solid (it's solid) and piercing not slashing and it would be like catching a semi-solid blade shaped quantity of acid, you would still be hurt by it, and then the mindblade would make it dissipate.

There's not really a difference. The Snatch Arrows feat says it can be used on projectiles other than arrows, which would indicate it might work with a mindblade.

And according to the text in the mindblade ability, the mindblade is treated like a weapon for the purposes of feats etc.

It does damage because its sharp, not because the energy disintigrates your flesh. Catching it as one would a dagger or arrow would do no damage to the monk.
Crusher217
05-28-07, 08:24 PM There's not really a difference. The Snatch Arrows feat says it can be used on projectiles other than arrows, which would indicate it might work with a mindblade.

And according to the text in the mindblade ability, the mindblade is treated like a weapon for the purposes of feats etc.

It does damage because its sharp, not because the energy disintigrates your flesh. Catching it as one would a dagger or arrow would do no damage to the monk.
That's a good point, I've always had it stuck in my head as if it was a lightsaber sort of weapon, although I don't like Star Wars, where it kind of sears flesh, although a small cut from a mindblade would be thought of as a sword wound, thanks for correcting me.
Rageheart
05-29-07, 01:53 AM In the past it has been explained that throwing a mindblade is a special, difficult thing to do. This is the reason cited for a Soulknife not being able to throw two short sword mindblades even if he is holding one in each hand...

Whaaa? :confused:

Where is this ruling and what is the rationale?
Malek2991
05-29-07, 01:11 PM There is nothing preventing a soulknife dual wielding mindblades from throwing both of them in a round as a Full Attack in the EPH and the 17th level class feature, Multiple Throw, allows soulknives to throw one mindblade/ melee attack they would be able to perform. The example soulknife was lev 17 and has a BAB of +12/+7 allowing him to throw 2 mind blades, it then states if he was dual wielding mindblades he would be able to throw 4. The Multiple Throw class feature only allows him to throw mindblades based on his BAB, any soulknife should be allowed to throw a pair of mindblades if he is wielding one in each hand. Note it takes a full round action to shape two new mindblades (free action to draw a mindblade and full round action to shape it)

Note: only based on Expanded Psionics Handbook no other source.

Note 2: Nothing in EPH description of Throw Mindblade either confirms nor denies being able to throw 2 mindblades if your dual wielding.
lseelba
05-29-07, 02:15 PM Whaaa? :confused:

Where is this ruling and what is the rationale?

I didn't make the ruling and personally I think it's silly, since all other characters can throw two thrown weapons at level 1 (though with HUGE penalties).

The orignial thread is HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-228597). I'll cut and paste the important sections. This first quote is Q and A from customer service. Any bolding done by me:

There is a question on the throwing of mindblade ability: It says that he cannot throw multiple mind blades until 17th level pg 27 Multiple Throw(Ex), or four if he manifested 2 short swords. This paragraph is causing severl problems.

2nd level soulknife can throw a mindblade 30 feet, following round as a move action he can make a new one
at 5th level, with Free Draw(Su), he can manifest a mind blade as a Free Action.

Question 1: So can he at 5th level manifest a mind blade in round one, and in round 2 throw the first one, manifest a second mind blade as a Free Action, and throw a second?

Answer: -No, he can manifest a mind blade, throw it, and manifest another mind blade, but not throw it. So they only get the single throw, however, they still threaten the squares adjacent to them.

Question 2: Shape Blade (su): A soulknife can shape a blade into different forms as a full round action. he can shape 2 short swords. To use the above example he manifests a mind blade in round one, splites them in round 2, throws 2 in round three, manifests as a Free Action another blade, then throwing that, all at 5th level?

Answer: -They may manifest the mind blade, shape it into 2 short swords, and throw one of them, while keeping the other ready for combat. However, they couldn't throw both at this time.

Question 3: At 8th level, his BAB goes to +6/+1: How does this affect his throwing of mind blades?

Answer: -As the soulknife may not throw multiple mind blades until 17th-level, it has no affect on the number of mind blades they may throw in a single round.

Question 4: Here is where it gets nasty: 17th level, The BAB for 17th has been errated on the boards by WOTC_Mark (many thanks to him for his excellent work)
Multiple Throw (Ex): Using the corrected 17th BAB gives 3 attacks (+12/+7/+2), not 2 as listed in the description. What is to prevent him from having a second mind blade in his hand and how would that affect his throwing of blades?

Answer:-Once you get to 17th-level, having 2 mind blades (one in each hand) and throwing them, is the same as using Two-Weapon Fighting with any other thrown weapon. Rules for this can be found in the Player's Handbook v.3.5. However, keep in mind that the Shape Mind Blade ability takes a full round to complete. So, if they start the round with two short sword type mind blades ready, they can throw them both, then manifest and throw a 3rd mind blade, and then manifiest, and throw a 4th one.

This is Bruce Cordell's comments on the above answers...yeah that guy:

(Q1)
BRC: Based on the class table, why would he be able to throw two blades at 5th level? Regardless of the fact that he can use one free action to acquire a new mind-blade (Free Draw), he is not given the ability to make iterative attacks with a mind blade. More importantly, throwing the mind blade requires an effort of psionic will greater than what it would take to throw a mundane spear or dagger. Not until 17th level can a soulknife launch two in one round, regardless of starting conditions.

(Q2)
BRC: That's correct--see my point above--a mind-blade is a focus of psionic energy with some aspects of materiality, but it is not a material weapon--throwing two mind-blades is not like throwing two material objects. Even at 8th level (when iterative attacks are gained), the soulknife can not launch more than one mind-blade as a ranged attack in one round, even were he holding several dozen.

(Q3)
BRC: Right.

(Q4)
BRC: That's correct, the BAB printed omitted the final iterative attack beginning at 15th level. And, CS is correct in its interpretation of the rules.

(Q5)
BRC: There is no error in Shape Mind Blade--Multiple throw doesn't require Shape Mind Blade, in any event. The Mind Blade (Su) ability allows the soulknife to manifest a mind-blade as a move-equiv action. The Free Draw (Su) ability gives the soulknife the ability to manifest another blade as a free action. That's two mind blades per round, each of which can be thrown once the Multiple Throw ability is gained.
Rageheart
05-29-07, 03:02 PM sigh... as if Soulknives werent gimped enough.
lseelba
05-29-07, 03:53 PM sigh... as if Soulknives werent gimped enough.

I know huh? If I ever run a game where a PC is a Soulknife, I'm gonna ignore that rule and the level 17 ability and say they can throw their mindblades just like a rogue with quickdraw could throw knives. :rolleyes:
CrimsonDeath
05-29-07, 04:03 PM He can deflect it easily, and if he had the right feat (Return Shot) he could catch it and toss it back as part of the deflection. But he couldn't catch it, pocket it, and throw it later.
According to the "Throw Mind Blade" class feature, the mind blade dissipates after the attack is made, whether the mind blade hits or not. It seems reasonable to say that a character with Return Shot would catch the mind blade, then the mind blade would dissipate in his hand before he got the opportunity to throw it back. Since the Soulknife's attack had been resolved by that point (as a failure), the mind blade no longer has any business existing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lseelba 05-26-07, 02:33 PM	In the past it has been explained that throwing a mindblade is a special, difficult thing to do. This is the reason cited for a Soulknife not being able to throw two short sword mindblades even if he is holding one in each hand (a stupid ruling IMHO especially if the Soulknife has a high BAB and TWF feats...but I digress). My question is can a monk with snatch arrows catch a mind blade and throw it back, or is throwing mind blades a Soulknife only thing. If it's soulknife only, can a monk/soulknife catch another soulknifes mindblade and throw it back? Or is a mindblade only usable by the one who creates it? :confused:
forsaken1111 05-26-07, 02:40 PM	The mindblade is a semisolid blade of energy, so in theory you COULD catch it. I'd rule against throwing it back though, saying it simply dissipates in your hand.
Tempest Stormwind 05-26-07, 02:48 PM	In the past it has been explained that throwing a mindblade is a special, difficult thing to do. This is the reason cited for a Soulknife not being able to throw two short sword mindblades even if he is holding one in each hand (a stupid ruling IMHO especially if the Soulknife has a high BAB and TWF feats...but I digress). My question is can a monk with snatch arrows catch a mind blade and throw it back, or is throwing mind blades a Soulknife only thing. If it's soulknife only, can a monk/soulknife catch another soulknifes mindblade and throw it back? Or is a mindblade only usable by the one who creates it? :confused: He can deflect it easily, and if he had the right feat (Return Shot) he could catch it and toss it back as part of the deflection. But he couldn't catch it, pocket it, and throw it later.
Amoris Dendidorm 05-27-07, 03:46 AM	A Mindblade can dismiss his mindblade with the speed of thought! The monk that is faster than the mind is yet to be born:P If he exist I believe he/she wouldn't bother with catching and throwing back a silly mindblade. So yes, I believe a monk could dodge or even catch the Mindblade and if for some miraculous circumstance the blade would not be dissmissed, than it could be thrown, but if that Mindblade should be hit by his own blade he should get maximum damage for being an idiot!
Tempest Stormwind 05-27-07, 04:03 AM	A Mindblade can dismiss his mindblade with the speed of thought! The monk that is faster than the mind is yet to be born:P If he exist I believe he/she wouldn't bother with catching and throwing back a silly mindblade.Never heard of Diamond Mind, have ya? Or, for that matter, precognitive magic? It doesn't matter how fast the attacker is, if the defender knows where the attack is coming from before it happens and moves to intercept...
forsaken1111 05-27-07, 09:36 AM	Never heard of Diamond Mind, have ya? Or, for that matter, precognitive magic? It doesn't matter how fast the attacker is, if the defender knows where the attack is coming from before it happens and moves to intercept... It would still take time for the mindblade to travel back and hit the soulknife. The point is... the soulknife should never by hurt by his OWN MIND. And that's all the mindblade is... it takes a throught to dismiss the mindblade, so it could be said to be a free action. Free actions can be taken any time, which would include "ITS ABOUT TO HIT ME IN THE EYE OH NO GO AWAY!" time.
lseelba 05-27-07, 01:17 PM	It would still take time for the mindblade to travel back and hit the soulknife. The point is... the soulknife should never by hurt by his OWN MIND. And that's all the mindblade is... it takes a throught to dismiss the mindblade, so it could be said to be a free action. Free actions can be taken any time, which would include "ITS ABOUT TO HIT ME IN THE EYE OH NO GO AWAY!" time. Immediate actions can be taken any time. Free actions have to be taken on one's turn. ;)
Amoris Dendidorm 05-27-07, 04:12 PM	The thrown knife would still have travelling time to the monk and then back again to the Mindblade. Unless there are extreme effects going on (time acceleration or sum such), the Mindblade should always be able to dissmiss his own creation before impact! If you used magic or powers to create the above mentioned thesis, than it would be (imho) a waste of resources and would bring to much debate at the gametable. So as a DM I would say no! no way! no way in h.!!
forsaken1111 05-28-07, 12:46 AM	Immediate actions can be taken any time. Free actions have to be taken on one's turn. ;) Uh... we're talking about a soulknife throwing a mindblade at someone, thus we're assuming it IS his turn. I'm sure there's a way to throw something during someone else's turn, but the normal way to do so is by attacking during your turn. If you want, just call it an immediate action.
Crusher217 05-28-07, 05:15 PM	This does seem kind of irrelevant because their is a difference between catching an arrow and a mind blade. An arrow is not semi-solid (it's solid) and piercing not slashing and it would be like catching a semi-solid blade shaped quantity of acid, you would still be hurt by it, and then the mindblade would make it dissipate.
forsaken1111 05-28-07, 05:30 PM	This does seem kind of irrelevant because their is a difference between catching an arrow and a mind blade. An arrow is not semi-solid (it's solid) and piercing not slashing and it would be like catching a semi-solid blade shaped quantity of acid, you would still be hurt by it, and then the mindblade would make it dissipate. There's not really a difference. The Snatch Arrows feat says it can be used on projectiles other than arrows, which would indicate it might work with a mindblade. And according to the text in the mindblade ability, the mindblade is treated like a weapon for the purposes of feats etc. It does damage because its sharp, not because the energy disintigrates your flesh. Catching it as one would a dagger or arrow would do no damage to the monk.
Crusher217 05-28-07, 08:24 PM	There's not really a difference. The Snatch Arrows feat says it can be used on projectiles other than arrows, which would indicate it might work with a mindblade. And according to the text in the mindblade ability, the mindblade is treated like a weapon for the purposes of feats etc. It does damage because its sharp, not because the energy disintigrates your flesh. Catching it as one would a dagger or arrow would do no damage to the monk. That's a good point, I've always had it stuck in my head as if it was a lightsaber sort of weapon, although I don't like Star Wars, where it kind of sears flesh, although a small cut from a mindblade would be thought of as a sword wound, thanks for correcting me.
Rageheart 05-29-07, 01:53 AM	In the past it has been explained that throwing a mindblade is a special, difficult thing to do. This is the reason cited for a Soulknife not being able to throw two short sword mindblades even if he is holding one in each hand... Whaaa? :confused: Where is this ruling and what is the rationale?
Malek2991 05-29-07, 01:11 PM	There is nothing preventing a soulknife dual wielding mindblades from throwing both of them in a round as a Full Attack in the EPH and the 17th level class feature, Multiple Throw, allows soulknives to throw one mindblade/ melee attack they would be able to perform. The example soulknife was lev 17 and has a BAB of +12/+7 allowing him to throw 2 mind blades, it then states if he was dual wielding mindblades he would be able to throw 4. The Multiple Throw class feature only allows him to throw mindblades based on his BAB, any soulknife should be allowed to throw a pair of mindblades if he is wielding one in each hand. Note it takes a full round action to shape two new mindblades (free action to draw a mindblade and full round action to shape it) Note: only based on Expanded Psionics Handbook no other source. Note 2: Nothing in EPH description of Throw Mindblade either confirms nor denies being able to throw 2 mindblades if your dual wielding.
lseelba 05-29-07, 02:15 PM	Whaaa? :confused: Where is this ruling and what is the rationale? I didn't make the ruling and personally I think it's silly, since all other characters can throw two thrown weapons at level 1 (though with HUGE penalties). The orignial thread is HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-228597). I'll cut and paste the important sections. This first quote is Q and A from customer service. Any bolding done by me: There is a question on the throwing of mindblade ability: It says that he cannot throw multiple mind blades until 17th level pg 27 Multiple Throw(Ex), or four if he manifested 2 short swords. This paragraph is causing severl problems. 2nd level soulknife can throw a mindblade 30 feet, following round as a move action he can make a new one at 5th level, with Free Draw(Su), he can manifest a mind blade as a Free Action. Question 1: So can he at 5th level manifest a mind blade in round one, and in round 2 throw the first one, manifest a second mind blade as a Free Action, and throw a second? Answer: -No, he can manifest a mind blade, throw it, and manifest another mind blade, but not throw it. So they only get the single throw, however, they still threaten the squares adjacent to them. Question 2: Shape Blade (su): A soulknife can shape a blade into different forms as a full round action. he can shape 2 short swords. To use the above example he manifests a mind blade in round one, splites them in round 2, throws 2 in round three, manifests as a Free Action another blade, then throwing that, all at 5th level? Answer: -They may manifest the mind blade, shape it into 2 short swords, and throw one of them, while keeping the other ready for combat. However, they couldn't throw both at this time. Question 3: At 8th level, his BAB goes to +6/+1: How does this affect his throwing of mind blades? Answer: -As the soulknife may not throw multiple mind blades until 17th-level, it has no affect on the number of mind blades they may throw in a single round. Question 4: Here is where it gets nasty: 17th level, The BAB for 17th has been errated on the boards by WOTC_Mark (many thanks to him for his excellent work) Multiple Throw (Ex): Using the corrected 17th BAB gives 3 attacks (+12/+7/+2), not 2 as listed in the description. What is to prevent him from having a second mind blade in his hand and how would that affect his throwing of blades? Answer:-Once you get to 17th-level, having 2 mind blades (one in each hand) and throwing them, is the same as using Two-Weapon Fighting with any other thrown weapon. Rules for this can be found in the Player's Handbook v.3.5. However, keep in mind that the Shape Mind Blade ability takes a full round to complete. So, if they start the round with two short sword type mind blades ready, they can throw them both, then manifest and throw a 3rd mind blade, and then manifiest, and throw a 4th one. This is Bruce Cordell's comments on the above answers...yeah that guy: (Q1) BRC: Based on the class table, why would he be able to throw two blades at 5th level? Regardless of the fact that he can use one free action to acquire a new mind-blade (Free Draw), he is not given the ability to make iterative attacks with a mind blade. More importantly, throwing the mind blade requires an effort of psionic will greater than what it would take to throw a mundane spear or dagger. Not until 17th level can a soulknife launch two in one round, regardless of starting conditions. (Q2) BRC: That's correct--see my point above--a mind-blade is a focus of psionic energy with some aspects of materiality, but it is not a material weapon--throwing two mind-blades is not like throwing two material objects. Even at 8th level (when iterative attacks are gained), the soulknife can not launch more than one mind-blade as a ranged attack in one round, even were he holding several dozen. (Q3) BRC: Right. (Q4) BRC: That's correct, the BAB printed omitted the final iterative attack beginning at 15th level. And, CS is correct in its interpretation of the rules. (Q5) BRC: There is no error in Shape Mind Blade--Multiple throw doesn't require Shape Mind Blade, in any event. The Mind Blade (Su) ability allows the soulknife to manifest a mind-blade as a move-equiv action. The Free Draw (Su) ability gives the soulknife the ability to manifest another blade as a free action. That's two mind blades per round, each of which can be thrown once the Multiple Throw ability is gained.
Rageheart 05-29-07, 03:02 PM	sigh... as if Soulknives werent gimped enough.
lseelba 05-29-07, 03:53 PM	sigh... as if Soulknives werent gimped enough. I know huh? If I ever run a game where a PC is a Soulknife, I'm gonna ignore that rule and the level 17 ability and say they can throw their mindblades just like a rogue with quickdraw could throw knives. :rolleyes:
CrimsonDeath 05-29-07, 04:03 PM	He can deflect it easily, and if he had the right feat (Return Shot) he could catch it and toss it back as part of the deflection. But he couldn't catch it, pocket it, and throw it later. According to the "Throw Mind Blade" class feature, the mind blade dissipates after the attack is made, whether the mind blade hits or not. It seems reasonable to say that a character with Return Shot would catch the mind blade, then the mind blade would dissipate in his hand before he got the opportunity to throw it back. Since the Soulknife's attack had been resolved by that point (as a failure), the mind blade no longer has any business existing.