Monks and Psions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Monks and Psions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sonics020
07-07-07, 12:48 AM Im a Psion and wish to put levels in Monk, but i read that there was a special restriction on monks. If I take levels in anything other than monk i cannot gain levels in monk again so if i multiclass in monk will i be able to gain levels in psion again and still be able to gain levels in monk.
Tempest Stormwind
07-07-07, 12:51 AM Get rid of the monk's multiclass restrictions. They were put in there to appease playtesters who were still drunk on 2e's, er... eccentricities.

That said, Aescetic Psion and Monastic Training do exactly what you want. Both are in Secrets of Sarlona. Monastic Training also leads to Talashatora, which is one of the best feats evar for monk players.
Nephallim
07-07-07, 01:06 AM Its already been said...but...if you grab Tashalatora, you only ever need one monk level.
InkBlot
07-07-07, 01:10 AM If you want all the awesome of the monk, but none of the shoe-horning, pigeon-holing, or other vaguely dirty sounding bad bits of the monk class, try the Sword Sage.

Just take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike as character feats. The Swordsage, despite the name, is a marvelous unarmed fighter. Swordsages don't require feats to be awesome, so don't worry about having to spend two feats to make your unarmed strikes deal decent damage. Really it's the Swordsages manuevers that do that, the feats are just gravy.
Tempest Stormwind
07-07-07, 01:27 AM If you want all the awesome of the monk, but none of the shoe-horning, pigeon-holing, or other vaguely dirty sounding bad bits of the monk class, Agreed completely. I've likened the monk to an I-beam, a few Lego bricks, a Meccano wrench, and K'nex connectors. Each can be useful building blocks for other things, but they DO NOT work well together. The best thing you can do for your monk is multiclass. try the Sword Sage.

Just take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike as character feats. The Swordsage, despite the name, is a marvelous unarmed fighter. Swordsages don't require feats to be awesome, so don't worry about having to spend two feats to make your unarmed strikes deal decent damage. Really it's the Swordsages manuevers that do that, the feats are just gravy.Even better if you use the unarmed swordsage variant (grants it the monk's Unarmed Strike, which comes with Improved Unarmed Strike and class level damage), I might add. But I do second this wholeheartedly. That class is what the monk should have been.
Sonics020
07-07-07, 02:52 AM This feat Tashalatora it appears in secret of sarlona
ck2001wendt
07-07-07, 07:52 AM Agreed completely. I've likened the monk to an I-beam, a few Lego bricks, a Meccano wrench, and K'nex connectors. Each can be useful building blocks for other things, but they DO NOT work well together. The best thing you can do for your monk is multiclass. Even better if you use the unarmed swordsage variant (grants it the monk's Unarmed Strike, which comes with Improved Unarmed Strike and class level damage), I might add. But I do second this wholeheartedly. That class is what the monk should have been.

I keep hearing about this variant. Where is it?

Edit: NM.
vahju
07-07-07, 11:35 AM What book is the swordsage in and which page talks about the variant?
Tempest Stormwind
07-07-07, 11:47 AM What book is the swordsage inWe get this a lot, despite it being common knowledge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists)...and which page talks about the variant?The part at the very beginning of the class, under the heading "adaptation".
PhaedrusXY
07-07-07, 11:47 AM What book is the swordsage in and which page talks about the variant?Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.
Vasily
07-07-07, 12:55 PM Tempest or Inkblot (or anyone else that might know),

Is there any way that the swordsage can do two attacks per round (without two weapon fighting) similar to the monk's flurry? Thanks!
Tempest Stormwind
07-07-07, 12:59 PM Tempest or Inkblot (or anyone else that might know),

Is there any way that the swordsage can do two attacks per round (without two weapon fighting) similar to the monk's flurry? Thanks!

Snap Kick, ToB. When you make one or more melee attacks in a round, you make an additional unarmed attack at your highest attack bonus (only half strength on the damage, though). If you use this feat, all attacks that round suffer an additional -2.

It's an *awesome* feat if you know how to apply it.
InkBlot
07-07-07, 02:12 PM Besides Snap Kick, there are some maneuvers that give extra attacks. This is not a comprehensive list. These are just the ones from the Tiger Claw school.

Dancing Mongoose: "You make a flurry of deadly attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield ..."

Pouncing Charge: "As part of initiating this maneuver, you make a charge attack. Instead of making a single attack at the end of your charge, you can make a full attack."

Raging Mongoose: "You make a flurry of deadly attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield ..."

Wolf Fang Strike: " You must fight with two weapons to use this maneuver. If you carry only one weapon, you can choose to make an unarmed strike with your off hand (as an unarmed attack) if you so wish. As part of this maneuver, you make an attack with both weapons you wield against one opponent.

The Mongoose boosts are swift actions enhance your normal attack routine. Pouncing Charge is a full round action. Wolf Fang Strike is a standard action. Snap Kick works with all of these, giving you yet another extra attack.

Maneuvers can only be used once per encounter, unless you spend a full round action meditating to get them back (to gather your ki, regain your balance, whatever). You learn a whole lot of maneuvers, but you can only have a few ready to go at a time. You can change which ones you have ready with a few minutes of meditation/exercise/katas/whatever.

Maneuvers have levels, like spells do. For example, Raging Mongoose is an 8th level manuever so you can't learn it until you're 16th level.

There are extra-attack maneuvers in just about every school. Some of them are counter attacks - you get an extra attack when your enemy leaves an opening. Some of them come with special effects attached, like fire damage or a trip attempt.

Of note is Avalanche Of Blades, from the Diamond Mind school: "As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against an opponent. If that attack hits, ... you continue to make additional attacks, each one with an additional -4 penalty, until you miss or your opponent is reduced to -1 hit points or fewer. You must direct all these attacks at a single foe."

Note that all maneuvers can be performed with unarmed strikes (or any other weapon) despite the name of the maneuver.

Swordsages have access to the following martial arts styles, and they can mix and match between them.

Desert Wind: Speed, mobility, and fire
Diamond Mind: European fencing, iaijutsu, and concentration checks
Setting Sun: Tripping, throwing, anticipating enemy moves, and counter attacking
Shadow Hand: Ninja necromancer
Stone Dragon: Defense, DR, strong single strikes, keeping your enemy where you want him
Tiger Claw: Speed, mobility, jumping, mobility, critical hits, extra attacks, animal ferocity

Diamond Mind is particularly good for psionic characters, because expending psionic focus allows you to take 15 on any Concentration check. If you wanted to make a monk/psion who always knows his enemy's next move, you should try a Diamond Mind/Setting Sun Swordsage.

Desert Wind has maneuvers that create fire, whether to breath a cone of fire, to throw fireballs around, leave a blazing trail in your wake as you dash across the battlefield, or simply lite your weapon up for extra fire damage. If you wanted to create a monk/psion so you could toss around energy missiles, you might want to try a Desert Wind swordsage.

Shadow Hand has maneuvers that inflict status ailments on enemies, has some short-range teleport moves, and has some limited invisibility/incorporeality. If you wanted to make a monk/psion who used his psionic powers to instill paralyzing fear in his enemies minds, to slip between dimensions, or to cloud men's minds, then you might want to try a Shadow Hand swordsage.

Of course there's nothing preventing you from taking a little from each available school. There is even a prestige class for that concept, the Master Of Nine, which helps revert the normal rule of D&D that the specialist is always stronger.

Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are the only two schools which are mostly supernatural. All the other schools can be entirely described as normal real-world fighting, albeit at later levels they are taken to fantastic extremes (just like everything else in D&D). Or you could describe them with mystical overtones. The flavor is very flexible. Even the standard flavor text provided in the book spans a broad spectrum of themes, from the knight in shining armor to Dan Hibiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hibiki).

Strikes are almost always a standard, involve hitting your enemy, and either deal extra damage, or just do something cool. They give you a reason to do something other than stand in place doing a full attack round after round. Most leave you your move action, making you more mobile by default.

Boosts are always a swift action, are always some sort of self-buff, and never last more than a round.

Counters are always an immediate action, and usually let you counterattack in some way, but some are more like self buffs.
The_Shaman
07-07-07, 05:09 PM @Sonic: while I suppose swordsage is notably stronger, if you have to stay monk (no ToB, DM does not like initiates etc.) consider getting the Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine monk variants. Since you are a psion, I suppose getting your monk abilities to run off intelligence will be much better.

As for flurry... The only way a swordsage can get real flurry is through monk PrCs or possibly EWM with a double weapon/chain. Mind you, I do not know how worthwhile these may be, although I like the Shou Disciple PrC.
QuarianRex
07-07-07, 09:14 PM If you can you might want to pick up Universal Monk from DriveThruRPG.com as it gives you a selectable breakdown of all the monk abilities and more options. The way it is broken down makes it compatible with Tashalatora, PrCs that progress some monk abilities and not others, etc.

I mentioned this in another thread but I just wanted to pimp a cool find.
Nom
07-08-07, 11:56 PM Get rid of the monk's multiclass restrictions. They were put in there to appease playtesters who were still drunk on 2e's, er... eccentricities.The really silly thing about those restrictions is that they have the opposite effect of their flavour text. They are claimed to enforce "discipline and commitment". While they do make it very difficult for a monk to pick up cross-class levels, they do almost nothing to stop other classes dipping for a level or two of monk.

"Being a monk requires dedication and commitment, but we'll teach some of our best secrets to anyone who believes in tradition and stops by for a cuppa."
carnivore
07-09-07, 09:17 AM look here also:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=822311

:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sonics020 07-07-07, 12:48 AM	Im a Psion and wish to put levels in Monk, but i read that there was a special restriction on monks. If I take levels in anything other than monk i cannot gain levels in monk again so if i multiclass in monk will i be able to gain levels in psion again and still be able to gain levels in monk.
Tempest Stormwind 07-07-07, 12:51 AM	Get rid of the monk's multiclass restrictions. They were put in there to appease playtesters who were still drunk on 2e's, er... eccentricities. That said, Aescetic Psion and Monastic Training do exactly what you want. Both are in Secrets of Sarlona. Monastic Training also leads to Talashatora, which is one of the best feats evar for monk players.
Nephallim 07-07-07, 01:06 AM	Its already been said...but...if you grab Tashalatora, you only ever need one monk level.
InkBlot 07-07-07, 01:10 AM	If you want all the awesome of the monk, but none of the shoe-horning, pigeon-holing, or other vaguely dirty sounding bad bits of the monk class, try the Sword Sage. Just take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike as character feats. The Swordsage, despite the name, is a marvelous unarmed fighter. Swordsages don't require feats to be awesome, so don't worry about having to spend two feats to make your unarmed strikes deal decent damage. Really it's the Swordsages manuevers that do that, the feats are just gravy.
Tempest Stormwind 07-07-07, 01:27 AM	If you want all the awesome of the monk, but none of the shoe-horning, pigeon-holing, or other vaguely dirty sounding bad bits of the monk class, Agreed completely. I've likened the monk to an I-beam, a few Lego bricks, a Meccano wrench, and K'nex connectors. Each can be useful building blocks for other things, but they DO NOT work well together. The best thing you can do for your monk is multiclass. try the Sword Sage. Just take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike as character feats. The Swordsage, despite the name, is a marvelous unarmed fighter. Swordsages don't require feats to be awesome, so don't worry about having to spend two feats to make your unarmed strikes deal decent damage. Really it's the Swordsages manuevers that do that, the feats are just gravy.Even better if you use the unarmed swordsage variant (grants it the monk's Unarmed Strike, which comes with Improved Unarmed Strike and class level damage), I might add. But I do second this wholeheartedly. That class is what the monk should have been.
Sonics020 07-07-07, 02:52 AM	This feat Tashalatora it appears in secret of sarlona
ck2001wendt 07-07-07, 07:52 AM	Agreed completely. I've likened the monk to an I-beam, a few Lego bricks, a Meccano wrench, and K'nex connectors. Each can be useful building blocks for other things, but they DO NOT work well together. The best thing you can do for your monk is multiclass. Even better if you use the unarmed swordsage variant (grants it the monk's Unarmed Strike, which comes with Improved Unarmed Strike and class level damage), I might add. But I do second this wholeheartedly. That class is what the monk should have been. I keep hearing about this variant. Where is it? Edit: NM.
vahju 07-07-07, 11:35 AM	What book is the swordsage in and which page talks about the variant?
Tempest Stormwind 07-07-07, 11:47 AM	What book is the swordsage inWe get this a lot, despite it being common knowledge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/lists)...and which page talks about the variant?The part at the very beginning of the class, under the heading "adaptation".
PhaedrusXY 07-07-07, 11:47 AM	What book is the swordsage in and which page talks about the variant?Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords.
Vasily 07-07-07, 12:55 PM	Tempest or Inkblot (or anyone else that might know), Is there any way that the swordsage can do two attacks per round (without two weapon fighting) similar to the monk's flurry? Thanks!
Tempest Stormwind 07-07-07, 12:59 PM	Tempest or Inkblot (or anyone else that might know), Is there any way that the swordsage can do two attacks per round (without two weapon fighting) similar to the monk's flurry? Thanks! Snap Kick, ToB. When you make one or more melee attacks in a round, you make an additional unarmed attack at your highest attack bonus (only half strength on the damage, though). If you use this feat, all attacks that round suffer an additional -2. It's an awesome feat if you know how to apply it.
InkBlot 07-07-07, 02:12 PM	Besides Snap Kick, there are some maneuvers that give extra attacks. This is not a comprehensive list. These are just the ones from the Tiger Claw school. Dancing Mongoose: "You make a flurry of deadly attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make one additional attack with each weapon you wield ..." Pouncing Charge: "As part of initiating this maneuver, you make a charge attack. Instead of making a single attack at the end of your charge, you can make a full attack." Raging Mongoose: "You make a flurry of deadly attacks. After initiating this boost, you can make two additional attacks with each weapon you wield ..." Wolf Fang Strike: " You must fight with two weapons to use this maneuver. If you carry only one weapon, you can choose to make an unarmed strike with your off hand (as an unarmed attack) if you so wish. As part of this maneuver, you make an attack with both weapons you wield against one opponent. The Mongoose boosts are swift actions enhance your normal attack routine. Pouncing Charge is a full round action. Wolf Fang Strike is a standard action. Snap Kick works with all of these, giving you yet another extra attack. Maneuvers can only be used once per encounter, unless you spend a full round action meditating to get them back (to gather your ki, regain your balance, whatever). You learn a whole lot of maneuvers, but you can only have a few ready to go at a time. You can change which ones you have ready with a few minutes of meditation/exercise/katas/whatever. Maneuvers have levels, like spells do. For example, Raging Mongoose is an 8th level manuever so you can't learn it until you're 16th level. There are extra-attack maneuvers in just about every school. Some of them are counter attacks - you get an extra attack when your enemy leaves an opening. Some of them come with special effects attached, like fire damage or a trip attempt. Of note is Avalanche Of Blades, from the Diamond Mind school: "As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack against an opponent. If that attack hits, ... you continue to make additional attacks, each one with an additional -4 penalty, until you miss or your opponent is reduced to -1 hit points or fewer. You must direct all these attacks at a single foe." Note that all maneuvers can be performed with unarmed strikes (or any other weapon) despite the name of the maneuver. Swordsages have access to the following martial arts styles, and they can mix and match between them. Desert Wind: Speed, mobility, and fire Diamond Mind: European fencing, iaijutsu, and concentration checks Setting Sun: Tripping, throwing, anticipating enemy moves, and counter attacking Shadow Hand: Ninja necromancer Stone Dragon: Defense, DR, strong single strikes, keeping your enemy where you want him Tiger Claw: Speed, mobility, jumping, mobility, critical hits, extra attacks, animal ferocity Diamond Mind is particularly good for psionic characters, because expending psionic focus allows you to take 15 on any Concentration check. If you wanted to make a monk/psion who always knows his enemy's next move, you should try a Diamond Mind/Setting Sun Swordsage. Desert Wind has maneuvers that create fire, whether to breath a cone of fire, to throw fireballs around, leave a blazing trail in your wake as you dash across the battlefield, or simply lite your weapon up for extra fire damage. If you wanted to create a monk/psion so you could toss around energy missiles, you might want to try a Desert Wind swordsage. Shadow Hand has maneuvers that inflict status ailments on enemies, has some short-range teleport moves, and has some limited invisibility/incorporeality. If you wanted to make a monk/psion who used his psionic powers to instill paralyzing fear in his enemies minds, to slip between dimensions, or to cloud men's minds, then you might want to try a Shadow Hand swordsage. Of course there's nothing preventing you from taking a little from each available school. There is even a prestige class for that concept, the Master Of Nine, which helps revert the normal rule of D&D that the specialist is always stronger. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand are the only two schools which are mostly supernatural. All the other schools can be entirely described as normal real-world fighting, albeit at later levels they are taken to fantastic extremes (just like everything else in D&D). Or you could describe them with mystical overtones. The flavor is very flexible. Even the standard flavor text provided in the book spans a broad spectrum of themes, from the knight in shining armor to Dan Hibiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Hibiki). Strikes are almost always a standard, involve hitting your enemy, and either deal extra damage, or just do something cool. They give you a reason to do something other than stand in place doing a full attack round after round. Most leave you your move action, making you more mobile by default. Boosts are always a swift action, are always some sort of self-buff, and never last more than a round. Counters are always an immediate action, and usually let you counterattack in some way, but some are more like self buffs.
The_Shaman 07-07-07, 05:09 PM	@Sonic: while I suppose swordsage is notably stronger, if you have to stay monk (no ToB, DM does not like initiates etc.) consider getting the Kung Fu Genius or Carmendine monk variants. Since you are a psion, I suppose getting your monk abilities to run off intelligence will be much better. As for flurry... The only way a swordsage can get real flurry is through monk PrCs or possibly EWM with a double weapon/chain. Mind you, I do not know how worthwhile these may be, although I like the Shou Disciple PrC.
QuarianRex 07-07-07, 09:14 PM	If you can you might want to pick up Universal Monk from DriveThruRPG.com as it gives you a selectable breakdown of all the monk abilities and more options. The way it is broken down makes it compatible with Tashalatora, PrCs that progress some monk abilities and not others, etc. I mentioned this in another thread but I just wanted to pimp a cool find.
Nom 07-08-07, 11:56 PM	Get rid of the monk's multiclass restrictions. They were put in there to appease playtesters who were still drunk on 2e's, er... eccentricities.The really silly thing about those restrictions is that they have the opposite effect of their flavour text. They are claimed to enforce "discipline and commitment". While they do make it very difficult for a monk to pick up cross-class levels, they do almost nothing to stop other classes dipping for a level or two of monk. "Being a monk requires dedication and commitment, but we'll teach some of our best secrets to anyone who believes in tradition and stops by for a cuppa."
carnivore 07-09-07, 09:17 AM	look here also: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=822311 :D