Multiclassing and psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Multiclassing and psionics [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JoshuaZ
04-26-07, 09:09 PM A thought occured to me and I was curious was others here thought about it. In general it seems like multiclassing among multiple psionic classes works better than multiclassing among multiple casting classes. I haven't seen this pointed out before, but is possibly one reason the fact that all the power points pool whereas the slots don't pool?
The_Shaman
04-26-07, 09:59 PM I'm not quite sure about that. PP pools tend to grow almost geometrically with levels, and even 1 or 2 manifesting levels can make a significant difference. Compare the difference of a lvl 19 or 20 wizard in terms of spell slots (difference is 1 more lvl 8 and 9 slots) to that of a lvl 19 to 20 psion in terms of PP (33 PP out of 343... practically 10%, just as for a psychic warrior)

It can work well for psy-warriors who choose a PrC with a separate progression, perhaps, but few others really benefit from it. IMO, of course - and I must admit I haven't played too many psions.

However, for casters it can definitely benefit from having the right PrC. Mind you, I've seen prestige classes that hybridize practically any casting.
InkBlot
04-27-07, 02:06 PM I haven't seen this pointed out before, but is possibly one reason the fact that all the power points pool whereas the slots don't pool?
That is pretty much the only good thing about taking levels in multiple manifesting classes.

Compare a 4th level Psion to a 2nd level Lurk/2nd level Psion, both with an 18 Int. The straight-up psion has 25 power points, BAB 2, knows 7 powers, and has access to 2nd level powers. The Lurk2/Psion2 has 15 power points, BAB 2, knows 7 powers, and has access to 1st level powers. The multiclass build losses out on a level of powers, and 10 power points (three 2nd level manifestations and one 1st).

The above was probably the best case scenario for multiclassing two psionic classes. Psion and lurk use the same manifesting stat, and taking levels in lurk first gives you 3 extra HP and 10 extra skill points. The straight up psion still came out ahead, with the power poitns to more than make up for the HP/skills with Vigor (or other defenses) and Precognition (or other utility powers).
Mesiolan
05-03-07, 08:18 AM Just a thought.

If you take a single level in a high-PP class (like Ardent, Wilder or Psion), and slap the feat Practiced Manifester on it, you get up to +4 manifester levels on it. So you get +2 pp base and 5x the bonus pp.

An 8th level PsyWar, who takes a single level Ardent, and the PM feat, adds two powers, two mantles, +2 pp and bonus pp for WIS x5 levels. At WIS 18 this is +10 pp. Total +6 pp more than the PsyWar would get (4 pp + 2pp bonus).

In the long run, the PsyWar loses out on the pp (+12 pp + 1x bonus pp) of 20th level.
sonofdrizzt
05-03-07, 08:59 AM Thats why they gave the Soul Knife class. Why go messing with multiple ability bonuses with the Psi-warrior and the Ardant when you can just add a class that GIVES you a weapon, extra hp, extra skill points, 2 extra PP, and then just MAX out your Psion while giving a LV or 2 to you Soul Knife every so often? That leaves you Gold open to by better armor and magic/psionic items.

Simple:D
The_Geek
05-03-07, 01:44 PM On top of which, there are a variety of feats/PrCs that allow one to combine various spell classes. The UM uses the sum of its Wiz+Sorc lvls for Eff Cstr Lvl. AH goes up in both Arc and Div schools, and gets the added bonus of improving its combined Animal Companion/Familiar. ED is the same, warlock and cleric both improve in the same manner.

What does a poor Psion get? Dragon has one feat (PsioTheurge) which is akin to the UM, except more limited (one school/one discipline). No PrC or multiclass that allows one to increase one's crystals. <bleah> Although there's a new feat out there that stacks Monk and Psion, for determining (most) monk abilities. Still taking the hit on the final Pool size, though.

Although, for multiclassing, I don't think Psi 3/Wiz 3/CM 1/Illithid Savant 5 can be beat :D
InkBlot
05-03-07, 02:01 PM No PrC or multiclass that allows one to increase one's crystals.
Actually, all psionic prestige classes advance your psicrystal. "Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities (XPH p22)." The note in psionic prestige classes refers to a class ability which does not exist.

Even if you take it to reference the feat, it only means that the "+1 level of existing manifesting class" doesn't increase your psicrystal abilities. This is true regardless -- all the levels in the psionic class count towards your psicrystal, not just the ones that give you "+1 level of manifesting."

Spellcasters can take the Obtain Familiar feat to achieve the same benefit of counting all their levels in casting classes towards their familiar's abilities.
CrimsonDeath
05-03-07, 03:56 PM Why go messing with multiple ability bonuses with the Psi-warrior and the Ardant

Umm... Psywar and Ardent both manifest using Wisdom.

I'd never thought of it, but Mesiolan's idea has a good deal of merit, if you don't mind having two extra level 1 powers (at ML 5) and reducing your PsyWar ML by 1, instead of having an extra level 6 power. At Wis 20, you break even on PP; if your Wis is any higher, you actually gain PP by multiclassing in this manner. Unfortunately, because of how the Ardent class is worded, your first two powers must have a cost of 1 PP each, which limits you to level 1 powers... I'd probably go for Mantle abilities. Take Conflict for a free Weapon Focus (and grab Offensive Prescience) and maybe Freedom for +10 speed (and learn Dimension Hop).
Mesiolan
05-04-07, 01:57 AM Umm... Psywar and Ardent both manifest using Wisdom.

I'd never thought of it, but Mesiolan's idea has a good deal of merit, if you don't mind having two extra level 1 powers (at ML 5) and reducing your PsyWar ML by 1, instead of having an extra level 6 power. At Wis 20, you break even on PP; if your Wis is any higher, you actually gain PP by multiclassing in this manner. Unfortunately, because of how the Ardent class is worded, your first two powers must have a cost of 1 PP each, which limits you to level 1 powers... I'd probably go for Mantle abilities. Take Conflict for a free Weapon Focus (and grab Offensive Prescience) and maybe Freedom for +10 speed (and learn Dimension Hop).

If you take my example and add the PM feat and the Ardent level at 9th, you are immediately able to pick 3rd level powers. An Ardent may take any power of his mantles, which he can afford. With PM, he can afford 5 pp. I don't have the book in front of me, so it can be, that the first two picks must be 1st level powers.

Take the Force mantle for AC goodies. Or the Energy mantle for a nice 5d6+5 fire bolt once in a while, and minor energy resistance.

You lose on +1 BAB in the long run, if you pluck one Ardent level. But the second level of Ardent is nice too (another mantle, with a 3rd level power to boot, and +4 base pp).
CrimsonDeath
05-04-07, 04:11 AM If you take my example and add the PM feat and the Ardent level at 9th, you are immediately able to pick 3rd level powers. An Ardent may take any power of his mantles, which he can afford. With PM, he can afford 5 pp. I don't have the book in front of me, so it can be, that the first two picks must be 1st level powers.
As I said in the post you quoted, the class description specifically states that each mantle contains at least one power that costs 1 PP, and your first two picks must be from among these powers. So, if you want a level 3 Ardent power, you need at least two levels, which defeats the purpose of multiclassing for extra PP.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JoshuaZ 04-26-07, 09:09 PM	A thought occured to me and I was curious was others here thought about it. In general it seems like multiclassing among multiple psionic classes works better than multiclassing among multiple casting classes. I haven't seen this pointed out before, but is possibly one reason the fact that all the power points pool whereas the slots don't pool?
The_Shaman 04-26-07, 09:59 PM	I'm not quite sure about that. PP pools tend to grow almost geometrically with levels, and even 1 or 2 manifesting levels can make a significant difference. Compare the difference of a lvl 19 or 20 wizard in terms of spell slots (difference is 1 more lvl 8 and 9 slots) to that of a lvl 19 to 20 psion in terms of PP (33 PP out of 343... practically 10%, just as for a psychic warrior) It can work well for psy-warriors who choose a PrC with a separate progression, perhaps, but few others really benefit from it. IMO, of course - and I must admit I haven't played too many psions. However, for casters it can definitely benefit from having the right PrC. Mind you, I've seen prestige classes that hybridize practically any casting.
InkBlot 04-27-07, 02:06 PM	I haven't seen this pointed out before, but is possibly one reason the fact that all the power points pool whereas the slots don't pool? That is pretty much the only good thing about taking levels in multiple manifesting classes. Compare a 4th level Psion to a 2nd level Lurk/2nd level Psion, both with an 18 Int. The straight-up psion has 25 power points, BAB 2, knows 7 powers, and has access to 2nd level powers. The Lurk2/Psion2 has 15 power points, BAB 2, knows 7 powers, and has access to 1st level powers. The multiclass build losses out on a level of powers, and 10 power points (three 2nd level manifestations and one 1st). The above was probably the best case scenario for multiclassing two psionic classes. Psion and lurk use the same manifesting stat, and taking levels in lurk first gives you 3 extra HP and 10 extra skill points. The straight up psion still came out ahead, with the power poitns to more than make up for the HP/skills with Vigor (or other defenses) and Precognition (or other utility powers).
Mesiolan 05-03-07, 08:18 AM	Just a thought. If you take a single level in a high-PP class (like Ardent, Wilder or Psion), and slap the feat Practiced Manifester on it, you get up to +4 manifester levels on it. So you get +2 pp base and 5x the bonus pp. An 8th level PsyWar, who takes a single level Ardent, and the PM feat, adds two powers, two mantles, +2 pp and bonus pp for WIS x5 levels. At WIS 18 this is +10 pp. Total +6 pp more than the PsyWar would get (4 pp + 2pp bonus). In the long run, the PsyWar loses out on the pp (+12 pp + 1x bonus pp) of 20th level.
sonofdrizzt 05-03-07, 08:59 AM	Thats why they gave the Soul Knife class. Why go messing with multiple ability bonuses with the Psi-warrior and the Ardant when you can just add a class that GIVES you a weapon, extra hp, extra skill points, 2 extra PP, and then just MAX out your Psion while giving a LV or 2 to you Soul Knife every so often? That leaves you Gold open to by better armor and magic/psionic items. Simple:D
The_Geek 05-03-07, 01:44 PM	On top of which, there are a variety of feats/PrCs that allow one to combine various spell classes. The UM uses the sum of its Wiz+Sorc lvls for Eff Cstr Lvl. AH goes up in both Arc and Div schools, and gets the added bonus of improving its combined Animal Companion/Familiar. ED is the same, warlock and cleric both improve in the same manner. What does a poor Psion get? Dragon has one feat (PsioTheurge) which is akin to the UM, except more limited (one school/one discipline). No PrC or multiclass that allows one to increase one's crystals. <bleah> Although there's a new feat out there that stacks Monk and Psion, for determining (most) monk abilities. Still taking the hit on the final Pool size, though. Although, for multiclassing, I don't think Psi 3/Wiz 3/CM 1/Illithid Savant 5 can be beat :D
InkBlot 05-03-07, 02:01 PM	No PrC or multiclass that allows one to increase one's crystals. Actually, all psionic prestige classes advance your psicrystal. "Psicrystal abilities are based on the owner’s levels in psionic classes. Levels from other classes do not count toward the owner’s level for purposes of psicrystal abilities (XPH p22)." The note in psionic prestige classes refers to a class ability which does not exist. Even if you take it to reference the feat, it only means that the "+1 level of existing manifesting class" doesn't increase your psicrystal abilities. This is true regardless -- all the levels in the psionic class count towards your psicrystal, not just the ones that give you "+1 level of manifesting." Spellcasters can take the Obtain Familiar feat to achieve the same benefit of counting all their levels in casting classes towards their familiar's abilities.
CrimsonDeath 05-03-07, 03:56 PM	Why go messing with multiple ability bonuses with the Psi-warrior and the Ardant Umm... Psywar and Ardent both manifest using Wisdom. I'd never thought of it, but Mesiolan's idea has a good deal of merit, if you don't mind having two extra level 1 powers (at ML 5) and reducing your PsyWar ML by 1, instead of having an extra level 6 power. At Wis 20, you break even on PP; if your Wis is any higher, you actually gain PP by multiclassing in this manner. Unfortunately, because of how the Ardent class is worded, your first two powers must have a cost of 1 PP each, which limits you to level 1 powers... I'd probably go for Mantle abilities. Take Conflict for a free Weapon Focus (and grab Offensive Prescience) and maybe Freedom for +10 speed (and learn Dimension Hop).
Mesiolan 05-04-07, 01:57 AM	Umm... Psywar and Ardent both manifest using Wisdom. I'd never thought of it, but Mesiolan's idea has a good deal of merit, if you don't mind having two extra level 1 powers (at ML 5) and reducing your PsyWar ML by 1, instead of having an extra level 6 power. At Wis 20, you break even on PP; if your Wis is any higher, you actually gain PP by multiclassing in this manner. Unfortunately, because of how the Ardent class is worded, your first two powers must have a cost of 1 PP each, which limits you to level 1 powers... I'd probably go for Mantle abilities. Take Conflict for a free Weapon Focus (and grab Offensive Prescience) and maybe Freedom for +10 speed (and learn Dimension Hop). If you take my example and add the PM feat and the Ardent level at 9th, you are immediately able to pick 3rd level powers. An Ardent may take any power of his mantles, which he can afford. With PM, he can afford 5 pp. I don't have the book in front of me, so it can be, that the first two picks must be 1st level powers. Take the Force mantle for AC goodies. Or the Energy mantle for a nice 5d6+5 fire bolt once in a while, and minor energy resistance. You lose on +1 BAB in the long run, if you pluck one Ardent level. But the second level of Ardent is nice too (another mantle, with a 3rd level power to boot, and +4 base pp).
CrimsonDeath 05-04-07, 04:11 AM	If you take my example and add the PM feat and the Ardent level at 9th, you are immediately able to pick 3rd level powers. An Ardent may take any power of his mantles, which he can afford. With PM, he can afford 5 pp. I don't have the book in front of me, so it can be, that the first two picks must be 1st level powers. As I said in the post you quoted, the class description specifically states that each mantle contains at least one power that costs 1 PP, and your first two picks must be from among these powers. So, if you want a level 3 Ardent power, you need at least two levels, which defeats the purpose of multiclassing for extra PP.