Multiclassing Psion with Psion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Multiclassing Psion with Psion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zappy
02-12-08, 03:56 PM I have a fifth level Psion Kinetisist that I was planning on making Uncarnate. Now because of the campaign that I'm in I was instead thinking of becoming a Thrallheard. The problem is Mindlink is a Telepath power. Now witch would be easier or even possible to do? Should I use expanded knowledge to get Mindlink or could I just multiclass another Psion level 1 to take Telepath as my discipline? He's Human so there'd be no XP penalty for multiclassing so I'm more inclined to multiclass if it's allowed.
AntiDjinn
02-12-08, 04:01 PM You can't muliclass a class with itself. If that were possible, fighters would just go: Fighter2/Fighter2/Fighter2 to get bonus feats at every level.
jbsaff
02-12-08, 04:04 PM Expanded Knowledge is pretty much your only/best option there. IIRC, you could take mindlink next level and see if your DM will allow you to qualify for Thrallherd that same level. Since the feat is independent of the level, some DMs allow it where others don't.
archangel_arcanis_07
02-12-08, 04:10 PM as stated you can't. while it isn't in the SRD i know the XPH explicitly stated that it wasn't possible.

Remember the closest thing to this is a specialized wizard, ie i can't be a diviner giving up necromancy then multi-class into necromancer giving up 2 other schools.

that and it is kind of cheesy to even try it. Just take your feats and see if the DM will let you retrain or get a 'free' reformation so that you can rebuild based off of the changes in the game. Remember it said you can change any choice you made at that level this should include your choice of disciplines at level 1.
deadkoo
02-12-08, 04:20 PM just use expanded knowledge...

using the feat for a spell you don't want just to qualify for a class is a bit irritating, but if you wanna be thrallherd that much...

also, question here,

if you used psychic reformation to gain the feat for the class, then got rid of it, would you lose class levels?
Zappy
02-12-08, 04:24 PM Thank you all very much. I think I'll just take level 6 in kinetisist. With the feat expanded knowledge and use my skill points I can put off the decision till 7th by then I should be qualified for both.
jbsaff
02-12-08, 04:27 PM Deadkoo: I'm pretty sure that if you lose the prerequisites you lose the benefits of the class. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.
AntiDjinn
02-12-08, 04:28 PM Make sure the DM doesn't have certain table rules regarding the leadership skill and related mechanics, before you go thrallherd. Some DMs freak out about the extra work of having to write up thralls and cohorts, but unless you are treating them as cannon fodder (which is an option) it is something that only needs to be done once per NPC.
deadkoo
02-12-08, 04:30 PM ok cheers.

figured that would be how it worked...

cause that'd be a tad simple of a way to break a game:P

thanks
Bacris
02-12-08, 04:54 PM also, question here,

if you used psychic reformation to gain the feat for the class, then got rid of it, would you lose class levels?

My answer is:

Maybe.

Complete Warrior (I believe) explicitly stated this was the situation, but it is not in the "core" rulebooks.

However, there are prestige classes that specifically violate this rule with the class features.

The correct answer?

Ask your DM.
InkBlot
02-12-08, 05:07 PM if you used psychic reformation to gain the feat for the class, then got rid of it, would you lose class levels?

You don't lose the levels, but you lose the class benefits. You keep your hit dice, hit points, skill points, class skills, base saves, base attack bonus, and proficiencies. You lose everything else. Basically, you lose anything in the "Special" column of the class table. I'm not so sure about spellcasting/manifesting, but I think you lose that too.
deadkoo
02-12-08, 06:20 PM ok, next question would be, if you reformationed to regain the feat, would you regain the abilities?

or is it like monk/barbarian where once you leave(or go lawful) your boned?
jbsaff
02-12-08, 06:46 PM I'm pretty sure you get the benefits back. But I'm going off of memory of what I read in the feats portion of the rules.
Zappy
02-12-08, 08:20 PM OK so I've been thinking about this all evening now and was wondering if I'm missing something simple is there anything that would prevent me from taking both Uncarnate and Thrallheard? provided I meet both prereqs? I've been looking and can't find anything against taking two prestige classes.
AntiDjinn
02-12-08, 08:23 PM To date there has been no single unified rule as to what happens if you loose a prereq for a PrC. Base classes yes: If you loose the alignment requirement, when know what happens to a paladin, monk, etc.

Some select PrCs spell out exactly what happens. Useful information that the author's of those PrCs thought to include, but not generalizable to other PrCs. For example, the Kensai write-up tells you exactly the consequences of loosing your signature weapon and how to go about replacing it. The Risen Martyr tells you exactly what happens if you loose the exalted status (you cease to exist on the spot; difficult to come back from that one).

The splat books have indicated you loose everything under the "special" column of the PrC, but keep BAB, Save mods, hit points, etc. This is what most DMs are using, it seems. This rule was not included in the Rule Compendium, but that book is devoted to the mechanics of running the game, not character development.

f your PrC is organization-based then it seems pretty clear an organization won't support you if you no longer meet their standards. Of course, it may take an organization a while to notice you no longer qualify so you might replace your requirement before the brethren notice your lapse.
JulesCARV
02-12-08, 08:32 PM Sure. You'll lose manifester levels hand over fist, but otherwise it's fine.

The thrallherd levels might even make it easier to get access to the teachings of the Golden Mind, if your thralls or believers have connections to cool libraries, organizations, etc.
Lycanthromancer
02-12-08, 11:28 PM Instead of using a feat for Expanded Knowledge, try researching mindlink then reformat your character using psychic reformation to switch out the power with one of your less-used and less-useful lower-level ones. After all, you can always use Imprint Stone to make a power stone of a power that's already on your class list (especially things like call to mind, which is pretty much useless on anyone's powers known list unless they use it REALLY frequently). Since level 7 is the time when most of the earlier options become less useful (especially for non-scaling DCs), you might want to use psychic reformation anyway.

Just some food for thought.

Mind showing us your power and feat choices? We might be able to suggest a few things for you.
Zappy
02-13-08, 06:04 PM I'm at work and don't have my sheet with me, but I should be able to come up with everything from memory.
He's human 5th level Kinetisist.
Feats: Light Armor, Psionic Body, Privilaged Energy(fire), Burrowing Power, Combat Manifestation.
Powers:
First: Daze, Energy Ray, Hammer(I now it sucks now be the first to go for PR), Mind Thrust, and My Light
Second: Tongues, Energy Missile, Damp Power, Body Equilibrium
Third: Touchsight, Energy Cone

My plan is for sixth level to go with the first level of Uncarnate. Continue with that till I can get Inquisitor, Mindlink and the ranks in Diplomacy. At that point I'll alternate levels of Uncarnate and Thrallheard till about 3 or 4 of Thrall then finish Uncarnate to 10.
CrimsonDeath
02-13-08, 10:32 PM Feats: Light Armor

At the very least, you don't need that one. There are no drawbacks to wearing armor with -0 check penalty, even if you're not proficient. See if you can retrain or reform it away.
DracoPhoenix
02-14-08, 08:09 AM Pre epic, you'll be looking at something like psion 5 / uncarnate 10 / thrallherd 5.

But, as to your question - you can take as many PrCs as you qualify, they get treated as the class they "build" on for multiclassing purposes (i.e. both are "psion" levels)

Don't take uncarnate unless you plan on taking the full 10 - the hit to ML isn't worth anything less.

Try to take Thrallherd 1 / Uncarnate 1-10 / TH 2-5 if at all possible. The extra pair of hands is going to be invaluable until you're back up to full power. (I've got a Illumian Lock/Psion(shaper) Thurge variant that I'm partial too)

Is the character in play atm? Or in the drafting process?

If it's at all possible, strongly consider telepath over kensist - you have 2 classes that both fluff and mechanically complement the telepath.

Just remember, you're not going to have access to L9, possibly L8 powers - Uncarnate is -4ML, and TH is -2.
Lycanthromancer
02-14-08, 02:33 PM Combat Manifestation isn't as good as Skill Focus: Concentration, unless you're using it as a prereq. +4 to Concentration checks for manifesting defensively isn't as good as +3 to Concentration checks for EVERYTHING. Even better is Psycrystal Affinity (Single-Minded); you get a +3 to Concentration, it's a psionic feat, and you get one of the most useful familiar-like critters in the game.

PSICRYSTAL AFFINITY!

Also get rid of Armor Proficiency (Light), my light, hammer, and (possibly) daze. I'd rather have entangling ectoplasm, psionic grease, and mindlink (for the thrallherdy goodness).

You can keep kineticist if you want, though I can think of better ones for your low-level powers (however, high-level kineticists are AWESOME).

And that's all I have to say, 'bout that.
AntiDjinn
02-14-08, 03:05 PM Yeah, never touch Combat Manifestation unless a PrC requires it.
At lower levels your main use for the concentration skill is getting focused (DC 20) and Combat Manifestation doesn't help with that. Once you are focused, if you really need to make a concentration check (such as to manifest on the defensive, or when forced to do so by damage or adverse conditions) you can expend to take 15. Eventually as a primary manifester you will have so many ranks of the skill that the bonus for your feats will be drop in the bucket and you will really want to reform them away.
Zappy
02-14-08, 05:30 PM Wow lots to respond to.
@Lycanthromancer I took Combat Manifesting at level 3 cause I couldn't take Psionic Meditation due to max skill ranks I guess I could ditch it since it won't do much good anyway. But what would I take instead? Could I now reform it since I have the ranks or would that not be possible? It's iffy since I have the ranks now, but didn't then.

As for light armor he's only wearing a chain shirt anyway and once I go uncarnate my 18 CHA will more then make up for it. I can replace it with Psicrystal Affinity. No prob. I was also thinking of Elemental Envoy to go with it. But I may be running out of Feats so we'll have to see.

@DracoPhoenix I am playing this character atm. I was thinking about a 1 dip till I finished Uncarnate anyway. If you think its better that way I agree. Especially since my Leadership score will go up as I go along some anyway. My DM has sad he'd take us to epic if we wanted too, but I'm not sure how high. Our last characters in one of his games only made it to around 16. So I figure the epic assurance is good for at least 21 or so.

After all this advice I think I'll reform thusly (pre)post
Feats:
1: (Light armor)Skill Focus Concentration, , Psionic Body, (Combat Manifestation)Psicrystal Affinity
3: Privileged Energy
5:Burrowing Power
Powers:
1: (Hammer)Grease, Energy Ray, Mind Thrust, Daze, (My Light)Independently Researched Mindlink
2:Body Equilibrium, Energy Missile, Tongues, Damp Power
3:Touchsight, Energy Cone

Unfortunately I won't be able to do this for a while though since PR is a 4th power. I think this is the best option. Not surprising that I hit a few bumps since this is my first Psion, and I'm changing his direction mid stream.
Lycanthromancer
02-14-08, 06:51 PM There's always hiring a psion to manifest it, or using a power stone.
The_Shaman
02-14-08, 06:55 PM I have a fifth level Psion Kinetisist that I was planning on making Uncarnate. Now because of the campaign that I'm in I was instead thinking of becoming a Thrallheard. The problem is Mindlink is a Telepath power. Now witch would be easier or even possible to do? Should I use expanded knowledge to get Mindlink or could I just multiclass another Psion level 1 to take Telepath as my discipline? He's Human so there'd be no XP penalty for multiclassing so I'm more inclined to multiclass if it's allowed.

While this may not be the best option, PGtF has the Cognition Thief PrC - which, among other things, is a way to get a few telepathy powers. The problem is that every level you do so you don't get a manifester level, so maybe you should do a short dip at most. Still, if you want to get several powers or a couple of psi-likes, it might be worth it.
DracoPhoenix
02-15-08, 01:08 PM Oh, nearly forgot.

When you hit Uncarnate 10, pack a handy haversack to assume all your equipment.

Then pack an Skin of the Proteus. Don't assume that, while you wear it, among other things, you can assume yourself in corporeal form and still retain your telekinesis at will. Just put it in your HH when you want to be incorporeal again.
deadkoo
02-15-08, 01:25 PM 10th lvl uncarnate=awesome

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zappy 02-12-08, 03:56 PM	I have a fifth level Psion Kinetisist that I was planning on making Uncarnate. Now because of the campaign that I'm in I was instead thinking of becoming a Thrallheard. The problem is Mindlink is a Telepath power. Now witch would be easier or even possible to do? Should I use expanded knowledge to get Mindlink or could I just multiclass another Psion level 1 to take Telepath as my discipline? He's Human so there'd be no XP penalty for multiclassing so I'm more inclined to multiclass if it's allowed.
AntiDjinn 02-12-08, 04:01 PM	You can't muliclass a class with itself. If that were possible, fighters would just go: Fighter2/Fighter2/Fighter2 to get bonus feats at every level.
jbsaff 02-12-08, 04:04 PM	Expanded Knowledge is pretty much your only/best option there. IIRC, you could take mindlink next level and see if your DM will allow you to qualify for Thrallherd that same level. Since the feat is independent of the level, some DMs allow it where others don't.
archangel_arcanis_07 02-12-08, 04:10 PM	as stated you can't. while it isn't in the SRD i know the XPH explicitly stated that it wasn't possible. Remember the closest thing to this is a specialized wizard, ie i can't be a diviner giving up necromancy then multi-class into necromancer giving up 2 other schools. that and it is kind of cheesy to even try it. Just take your feats and see if the DM will let you retrain or get a 'free' reformation so that you can rebuild based off of the changes in the game. Remember it said you can change any choice you made at that level this should include your choice of disciplines at level 1.
deadkoo 02-12-08, 04:20 PM	just use expanded knowledge... using the feat for a spell you don't want just to qualify for a class is a bit irritating, but if you wanna be thrallherd that much... also, question here, if you used psychic reformation to gain the feat for the class, then got rid of it, would you lose class levels?
Zappy 02-12-08, 04:24 PM	Thank you all very much. I think I'll just take level 6 in kinetisist. With the feat expanded knowledge and use my skill points I can put off the decision till 7th by then I should be qualified for both.
jbsaff 02-12-08, 04:27 PM	Deadkoo: I'm pretty sure that if you lose the prerequisites you lose the benefits of the class. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.
AntiDjinn 02-12-08, 04:28 PM	Make sure the DM doesn't have certain table rules regarding the leadership skill and related mechanics, before you go thrallherd. Some DMs freak out about the extra work of having to write up thralls and cohorts, but unless you are treating them as cannon fodder (which is an option) it is something that only needs to be done once per NPC.
deadkoo 02-12-08, 04:30 PM	ok cheers. figured that would be how it worked... cause that'd be a tad simple of a way to break a game:P thanks
Bacris 02-12-08, 04:54 PM	also, question here, if you used psychic reformation to gain the feat for the class, then got rid of it, would you lose class levels? My answer is: Maybe. Complete Warrior (I believe) explicitly stated this was the situation, but it is not in the "core" rulebooks. However, there are prestige classes that specifically violate this rule with the class features. The correct answer? Ask your DM.
InkBlot 02-12-08, 05:07 PM	if you used psychic reformation to gain the feat for the class, then got rid of it, would you lose class levels? You don't lose the levels, but you lose the class benefits. You keep your hit dice, hit points, skill points, class skills, base saves, base attack bonus, and proficiencies. You lose everything else. Basically, you lose anything in the "Special" column of the class table. I'm not so sure about spellcasting/manifesting, but I think you lose that too.
deadkoo 02-12-08, 06:20 PM	ok, next question would be, if you reformationed to regain the feat, would you regain the abilities? or is it like monk/barbarian where once you leave(or go lawful) your boned?
jbsaff 02-12-08, 06:46 PM	I'm pretty sure you get the benefits back. But I'm going off of memory of what I read in the feats portion of the rules.
Zappy 02-12-08, 08:20 PM	OK so I've been thinking about this all evening now and was wondering if I'm missing something simple is there anything that would prevent me from taking both Uncarnate and Thrallheard? provided I meet both prereqs? I've been looking and can't find anything against taking two prestige classes.
AntiDjinn 02-12-08, 08:23 PM	To date there has been no single unified rule as to what happens if you loose a prereq for a PrC. Base classes yes: If you loose the alignment requirement, when know what happens to a paladin, monk, etc. Some select PrCs spell out exactly what happens. Useful information that the author's of those PrCs thought to include, but not generalizable to other PrCs. For example, the Kensai write-up tells you exactly the consequences of loosing your signature weapon and how to go about replacing it. The Risen Martyr tells you exactly what happens if you loose the exalted status (you cease to exist on the spot; difficult to come back from that one). The splat books have indicated you loose everything under the "special" column of the PrC, but keep BAB, Save mods, hit points, etc. This is what most DMs are using, it seems. This rule was not included in the Rule Compendium, but that book is devoted to the mechanics of running the game, not character development. f your PrC is organization-based then it seems pretty clear an organization won't support you if you no longer meet their standards. Of course, it may take an organization a while to notice you no longer qualify so you might replace your requirement before the brethren notice your lapse.
JulesCARV 02-12-08, 08:32 PM	Sure. You'll lose manifester levels hand over fist, but otherwise it's fine. The thrallherd levels might even make it easier to get access to the teachings of the Golden Mind, if your thralls or believers have connections to cool libraries, organizations, etc.
Lycanthromancer 02-12-08, 11:28 PM	Instead of using a feat for Expanded Knowledge, try researching mindlink then reformat your character using psychic reformation to switch out the power with one of your less-used and less-useful lower-level ones. After all, you can always use Imprint Stone to make a power stone of a power that's already on your class list (especially things like call to mind, which is pretty much useless on anyone's powers known list unless they use it REALLY frequently). Since level 7 is the time when most of the earlier options become less useful (especially for non-scaling DCs), you might want to use psychic reformation anyway. Just some food for thought. Mind showing us your power and feat choices? We might be able to suggest a few things for you.
Zappy 02-13-08, 06:04 PM	I'm at work and don't have my sheet with me, but I should be able to come up with everything from memory. He's human 5th level Kinetisist. Feats: Light Armor, Psionic Body, Privilaged Energy(fire), Burrowing Power, Combat Manifestation. Powers: First: Daze, Energy Ray, Hammer(I now it sucks now be the first to go for PR), Mind Thrust, and My Light Second: Tongues, Energy Missile, Damp Power, Body Equilibrium Third: Touchsight, Energy Cone My plan is for sixth level to go with the first level of Uncarnate. Continue with that till I can get Inquisitor, Mindlink and the ranks in Diplomacy. At that point I'll alternate levels of Uncarnate and Thrallheard till about 3 or 4 of Thrall then finish Uncarnate to 10.
CrimsonDeath 02-13-08, 10:32 PM	Feats: Light Armor At the very least, you don't need that one. There are no drawbacks to wearing armor with -0 check penalty, even if you're not proficient. See if you can retrain or reform it away.
DracoPhoenix 02-14-08, 08:09 AM	Pre epic, you'll be looking at something like psion 5 / uncarnate 10 / thrallherd 5. But, as to your question - you can take as many PrCs as you qualify, they get treated as the class they "build" on for multiclassing purposes (i.e. both are "psion" levels) Don't take uncarnate unless you plan on taking the full 10 - the hit to ML isn't worth anything less. Try to take Thrallherd 1 / Uncarnate 1-10 / TH 2-5 if at all possible. The extra pair of hands is going to be invaluable until you're back up to full power. (I've got a Illumian Lock/Psion(shaper) Thurge variant that I'm partial too) Is the character in play atm? Or in the drafting process? If it's at all possible, strongly consider telepath over kensist - you have 2 classes that both fluff and mechanically complement the telepath. Just remember, you're not going to have access to L9, possibly L8 powers - Uncarnate is -4ML, and TH is -2.
Lycanthromancer 02-14-08, 02:33 PM	Combat Manifestation isn't as good as Skill Focus: Concentration, unless you're using it as a prereq. +4 to Concentration checks for manifesting defensively isn't as good as +3 to Concentration checks for EVERYTHING. Even better is Psycrystal Affinity (Single-Minded); you get a +3 to Concentration, it's a psionic feat, and you get one of the most useful familiar-like critters in the game. PSICRYSTAL AFFINITY! Also get rid of Armor Proficiency (Light), my light, hammer, and (possibly) daze. I'd rather have entangling ectoplasm, psionic grease, and mindlink (for the thrallherdy goodness). You can keep kineticist if you want, though I can think of better ones for your low-level powers (however, high-level kineticists are AWESOME). And that's all I have to say, 'bout that.
AntiDjinn 02-14-08, 03:05 PM	Yeah, never touch Combat Manifestation unless a PrC requires it. At lower levels your main use for the concentration skill is getting focused (DC 20) and Combat Manifestation doesn't help with that. Once you are focused, if you really need to make a concentration check (such as to manifest on the defensive, or when forced to do so by damage or adverse conditions) you can expend to take 15. Eventually as a primary manifester you will have so many ranks of the skill that the bonus for your feats will be drop in the bucket and you will really want to reform them away.
Zappy 02-14-08, 05:30 PM	Wow lots to respond to. @Lycanthromancer I took Combat Manifesting at level 3 cause I couldn't take Psionic Meditation due to max skill ranks I guess I could ditch it since it won't do much good anyway. But what would I take instead? Could I now reform it since I have the ranks or would that not be possible? It's iffy since I have the ranks now, but didn't then. As for light armor he's only wearing a chain shirt anyway and once I go uncarnate my 18 CHA will more then make up for it. I can replace it with Psicrystal Affinity. No prob. I was also thinking of Elemental Envoy to go with it. But I may be running out of Feats so we'll have to see. @DracoPhoenix I am playing this character atm. I was thinking about a 1 dip till I finished Uncarnate anyway. If you think its better that way I agree. Especially since my Leadership score will go up as I go along some anyway. My DM has sad he'd take us to epic if we wanted too, but I'm not sure how high. Our last characters in one of his games only made it to around 16. So I figure the epic assurance is good for at least 21 or so. After all this advice I think I'll reform thusly (pre)post Feats: 1: (Light armor)Skill Focus Concentration, , Psionic Body, (Combat Manifestation)Psicrystal Affinity 3: Privileged Energy 5:Burrowing Power Powers: 1: (Hammer)Grease, Energy Ray, Mind Thrust, Daze, (My Light)Independently Researched Mindlink 2:Body Equilibrium, Energy Missile, Tongues, Damp Power 3:Touchsight, Energy Cone Unfortunately I won't be able to do this for a while though since PR is a 4th power. I think this is the best option. Not surprising that I hit a few bumps since this is my first Psion, and I'm changing his direction mid stream.
Lycanthromancer 02-14-08, 06:51 PM	There's always hiring a psion to manifest it, or using a power stone.
The_Shaman 02-14-08, 06:55 PM	I have a fifth level Psion Kinetisist that I was planning on making Uncarnate. Now because of the campaign that I'm in I was instead thinking of becoming a Thrallheard. The problem is Mindlink is a Telepath power. Now witch would be easier or even possible to do? Should I use expanded knowledge to get Mindlink or could I just multiclass another Psion level 1 to take Telepath as my discipline? He's Human so there'd be no XP penalty for multiclassing so I'm more inclined to multiclass if it's allowed. While this may not be the best option, PGtF has the Cognition Thief PrC - which, among other things, is a way to get a few telepathy powers. The problem is that every level you do so you don't get a manifester level, so maybe you should do a short dip at most. Still, if you want to get several powers or a couple of psi-likes, it might be worth it.
DracoPhoenix 02-15-08, 01:08 PM	Oh, nearly forgot. When you hit Uncarnate 10, pack a handy haversack to assume all your equipment. Then pack an Skin of the Proteus. Don't assume that, while you wear it, among other things, you can assume yourself in corporeal form and still retain your telekinesis at will. Just put it in your HH when you want to be incorporeal again.
deadkoo 02-15-08, 01:25 PM	10th lvl uncarnate=awesome