My First Psion [Archive] - Wizards Community

My First Psion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Narthon
10-27-07, 10:40 AM So, a new "evil character" campaign is starting soon. I think I want to try a psion for it and need some advice.

The other known characters will be a halfling rogue into assassin and a cleric which may be human or drow. There will be a third 4th character, but the player has given no clue as to what it is.

I think I want a telepath, and my main question is if I should stick with it or go into thralheard. Is the 1st level manafesting loss a big problem?

Also, could you recomend some races to me? Human seems obvious for the bonus feat and lack of stat penalty. None of the races in the XPH seem to be worth taking in the long run.

Finally, is it worth it to get Complete Psionic for the mind flayer legacy feats? They seem like they would be a great addition to this build, but I've heard the book is terrible.

Thank you for your time.
psionichamster
10-27-07, 12:00 PM yes, telepath is an excellent discipline to choose

thrallherd will net you some very nice benefits, mostly the extra actions and support of another character.

it is also quite powerful if you plan ahead...metaconcert, fusion, and having another psionic character that can fill in your weak points is nice.

of course, losing manifesting is never desirable, but for the tradeoffs, I think its worth it.

Psionic Charm (Ex)

At 3rd level, a thrallherd adds psionic charm to her powers known (if she doesn’t already know it). Once per day, she can manifest psionic charm at a reduced power point cost. The cost of psionic charm is reduced by the thrallherd’s level, to a minimum of 1 power point. The effect of this power is still restricted by the thrallherd’s manifester level.
Psionic Dominate (Ex)

At 5th level, a thrallherd adds psionic dominate to her powers known (if she doesn’t already know it) Once per day, she can manifest psionic dominate at a reduced power point cost. The cost of psionic dominate is reduced by the thrallherd’s level, to a minimum of 1 power point. The effect of this power is still restricted by the thrallherd’s manifester level.
Greater Dominate (Ex)

At 7th level and higher, a thrallherd does not have to pay 2 additional power points when she augments psionic dominate to affect animals, fey, giants, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids. This reduced point cost does not increase the save DC of the power as if she had spent the additional power points.
Superior Dominate (Ex)

At 9th level, a thrallherd does not have to pay 4 additional power points when she augments psionic dominate to affect aberrations, dragons, elementals, and outsiders (in addition to the creature types mentioned in the greater dominate ability). This reduced point cost does not increase the save DC of the power as if she had spent the additional power points.
Twofold Master (Ex)

new powers are nice, but as a telepath, that means you're forgoing psionic charm until 9th lvl, and dominate until 11th.

you'll probably want them earlier...i know i would.

Human is probably your best bet, simply because that extra feat could be Inquisitor, a prereq for the class.

If stoutheart halfling is allowed, i'd likely go for that, but i like small races...

Complete Psionic is meh...some things inside are nice (Ardent, some of the new powers, some PrC's for the soulkinfe), but for the most part the book's just not worth it.

Illithid legacy feats aren't worth it, in my opinion, especially if you're comparing them to Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Endowment, Greater Endowment, Psychic Meditation, and the like. Since almost all of your "key" powers are Will Negates type, getting that save DC as high as possible is key.

Also, check out the Mind's Eye Article on Telepaths (Google Search: Mind's Eye Telepath) for this key little tidbit:

Telepathic Communication

You gain the supernatural ability to communicate with any creature with your telepathy.
Level: 5th.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level.
Benefit: You gain the supernatural ability telepathy from page 316 of the Monster Manual. You can communicate telepathically with any other creature that has a language within 5 feet per manifester level. You can address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time.

Harbinger

Your mental attacks have a specific symbolism to them that aids you in your mental combat.
Level: 5th.
Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level.
Prerequisite: You must also take the power false sensory input at 5th level.
Benefit: You have learned to incorporate symbolism into your psionic attacks and defenses. When you manifest powers that specifically target another's mind or defend your mind, you gain an augmentation option.

Augment:If you spend an additional 5 power points, you can add a mental illusionary aspect to your attack. This takes the form of a harbinger, a mental symbol that conveys a confusing or threatening message to the target's mind and momentarily distracts or disables them. The target gets a Will save to negate the effects of the harbinger. If the target fails the Will save, the power you manifest is considered 1d3 levels higher than its actual level for purposes of DC.

The form of the harbinger can vary wildly. An offensive power could have a harbinger of a sword, a flame, or a spider. A defensive power could have a harbinger of a shield, a wall, or brambles with thorns

If you have Telepathy, and the DM allows it, try to get "Mindsight" from Lords of Madness (pg 176, iirc, on a sidebar in the Tsochari section)...detection automatically within your telepathy range is too nice to pass up.

-the hamster
Narthon
10-27-07, 01:33 PM Telepathic Communication seems much more useful than Harbringer, especially if I do go thralheard. Anything from Lords of Madness would probably be allowed, the dm is pretty lenient as far as that goes.

As I find more out about specific rules, I'll add more info.
CrimsonDeath
10-28-07, 04:05 AM Many people believe that Telepath is the worst flavor of Psion for a Thrallherd base. A widely held opinion is that Charm, Dominate, and Schism are the only powers from the Telepath-specific list that are worth getting. If you plan on going into Thrallherd anyway, it could pay off to start out with another primary discipline, use Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge to learn Mindlink, and pick up Schism with another Expanded Knowledge later if you want it. An exception would be if you eventually wanted Psychic Chirurgery. You need to be a Telepath to manage that pre-Epic.
Lokathor
10-28-07, 08:45 AM If the game is planned to last until 8th level powers are available, Mind Seed is also a very very cool Telepath Only power.
Narthon
10-28-07, 10:00 AM I'm not sure about thralheard yet. I may just use psionic dominate to fake it. I'm more into the idea that the character can control the minds of all around him, I'm not sure that I'd even need the thrall and believers. A psionic thrall is pretty much needed to make metaconcert at all worthwhile though.
psionichamster
10-28-07, 10:46 AM Metaconcert
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psychic warrior 5, telepath 5
Display: Visual; see text
Manifesting Time: 1 minute
Range: 20 ft.
Target: You and up to nine other willing psionic creatures in range
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Power Points: 9

You link your psychic might with other psionic creatures, creating an entity more powerful than the sum of its parts.

When you manifest this power, a number of power points you designate flows from each participant into a collective pool. One individual is chosen as the metaconcert conductor by mutual consent of the other participants (this is usually the manifester, but doesn’t have to be). Until the power ends, this conductor directs the efforts of the group. Misty strands of glowing power link the brows of all the participants in a complex and shifting pattern.

All the powers of each participant are known to the mental entity created with metaconcert (which is under the conductor’s command). This entity can’t take any more actions than a normal individual, but it manifests all its powers more effectively. Each participant contributing to the entity provides a cumulative +1 bonus to save DCs that apply when manifesting a power or using a psi-like ability. Likewise, each individual provides a cumulative +1 bonus when the entity makes its own saving throws in response to powers or psi-like abilities.

If the psionic entity takes ability damage from a psionic attack the total is divided among all the members as determined by the conductor.

If the entity manifests a power that has an XP cost, all the participants pay an equal share (the conductor pays the remainder if the cost can’t be divided evenly).

Once linked, the participants must remain within a 20-foot-radius area, and as a group can move at a speed of 10 feet. If a participant moves outside the 20-foot-radius area occupied by the others (whether willingly or involuntarily), that individual drops out of the group, and the power point pool of the metaconcert is instantly recalculated.

All participants who leave before a metaconcert ends or is dismissed reclaim a number of power points equal to the current power point pool divided by the number of members. If the conductor drops out, the power ends. That same number of points is removed from the power point pool.

When a metaconcert ends normally or is dismissed, remaining power points in the pool are divided among all the participants (the conductor receives the remainder if the points can’t be divided evenly).
Augment

For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 minute.

so, get yourself about 10 psionic thralls...they don't have to be high level, just enough to throw in about 3-4 pp each...

manifest Psionic Dominate on say, a dragon, or something else big and hella-scary. DC goes WAY up (+10 from metaconcert, + int, + augment, + etc) and you get a happy new friend with bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail attack routine.

for real cheatery, find a Roc, do this to him. You now have the equivalant of an attack helicopter that can fly @ 100' for 8 hours a day, for practically forever.

yes, thrallherd is very fun, especially if you use your minions with care and style.

plus, having a large, scary psychic warrior bodyguard (or hell, shaper bodyguard) is nice.

-the hamster
Narthon
10-28-07, 07:01 PM In a mostly non-psionic campaign, I wonder if I can count on that many, or any, psionic beleivers. Aren't they most likely to be commoners or other NPC classes?
Lokathor
10-28-07, 10:46 PM The Thrallherd (Ex) ability uses the rules for Leadership except where specified otherwise. The Followers (believers) use the rules for Cohorts (Thralls) except where specified. You can attract a Cohort "of a particular race, class, and alignment". Followers do not list any exceptions to this. So, you can select the race, class, and alignment of the followers you get.

In 3.0 it was different from this, but the 3.5 rules let you select the race, class, and alignment for each follower as well as for your cohort.
Sagetim
10-29-07, 02:14 AM So, a new "evil character" campaign is starting soon. I think I want to try a psion for it and need some advice.

The other known characters will be a halfling rogue into assassin and a cleric which may be human or drow. There will be a third 4th character, but the player has given no clue as to what it is.

I think I want a telepath, and my main question is if I should stick with it or go into thralheard. Is the 1st level manafesting loss a big problem?

Also, could you recomend some races to me? Human seems obvious for the bonus feat and lack of stat penalty. None of the races in the XPH seem to be worth taking in the long run.

Finally, is it worth it to get Complete Psionic for the mind flayer legacy feats? They seem like they would be a great addition to this build, but I've heard the book is terrible.

Thank you for your time.

go Elan if you want an immortal telepath badguy, and go Elan Telepath/Thrallherd if you want an immortal king of an army that worships him as if he were a god. Elan immortality is very nice in the long run. When you're evil buddies croak from old age, you'll be going strong. When that drow cleric (who will HAVE to be a female drow to be a drow cleric) dies of old age at 750, you'll be going strong. If that unknown other person goes wizard then lich, you'll still outlast the bugger. Because when you both turn 5000, he'll be dust, and you'll be walking around. That, and think about it...have evil plans that take longer than the lifetimes of your minions ever fail? the hero's die of old age before they can twart you. If you take things slow you can build up the most uber and complex defensive system around by making profession checks and pretending to be the local scribe or something.

oh, and:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a359/Sagetim/thrallherdposter.jpg

minotaur psychic warrior/pyrokineticist. mmmmm
Behaigo
10-29-07, 12:01 PM I'm working on making a elan telepath/thrallheard with the plan in mind of making an artificial city as a base of opperations, making all my beleivers pretend to be normal citizens in a normal city completley under my controll until I finaly launch my master plan :devil:
DracoPhoenix
11-05-07, 10:30 AM Slightly freaky - something similar for our up & coming campaign.

Though:
1) I'm looking at using more of the telepaths powers to manipulate people (dupe someone (a king...) into thinking we were childhood friends, once in-separable). I might investigate an egoist or shaper though (as you get charm & dom).

2) I'm packing Landlord - Aiming for a shaper thrall (Planar base via Genesis power stone + cheaper construction (telekinesis / fabricate etc)).

Lemme see, @PC L10, you'll have 2x L9 manifesters at PC L15 you'll have x2 ML13s (you + #2) and one ML14 (the 1st Thrall :uh-huh:). Meta concert would be useful, as would fusion.

Psychic Chirgery would be a must though :smirk:

Race wise, I've taken Elan. Yes the bonus human feat is good. But the Immortal thing is better for 3 psions with a taste for power. Just how many epic characters can the DM send after yours?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Narthon 10-27-07, 10:40 AM	So, a new "evil character" campaign is starting soon. I think I want to try a psion for it and need some advice. The other known characters will be a halfling rogue into assassin and a cleric which may be human or drow. There will be a third 4th character, but the player has given no clue as to what it is. I think I want a telepath, and my main question is if I should stick with it or go into thralheard. Is the 1st level manafesting loss a big problem? Also, could you recomend some races to me? Human seems obvious for the bonus feat and lack of stat penalty. None of the races in the XPH seem to be worth taking in the long run. Finally, is it worth it to get Complete Psionic for the mind flayer legacy feats? They seem like they would be a great addition to this build, but I've heard the book is terrible. Thank you for your time.
psionichamster 10-27-07, 12:00 PM	yes, telepath is an excellent discipline to choose thrallherd will net you some very nice benefits, mostly the extra actions and support of another character. it is also quite powerful if you plan ahead...metaconcert, fusion, and having another psionic character that can fill in your weak points is nice. of course, losing manifesting is never desirable, but for the tradeoffs, I think its worth it. Psionic Charm (Ex) At 3rd level, a thrallherd adds psionic charm to her powers known (if she doesn’t already know it). Once per day, she can manifest psionic charm at a reduced power point cost. The cost of psionic charm is reduced by the thrallherd’s level, to a minimum of 1 power point. The effect of this power is still restricted by the thrallherd’s manifester level. Psionic Dominate (Ex) At 5th level, a thrallherd adds psionic dominate to her powers known (if she doesn’t already know it) Once per day, she can manifest psionic dominate at a reduced power point cost. The cost of psionic dominate is reduced by the thrallherd’s level, to a minimum of 1 power point. The effect of this power is still restricted by the thrallherd’s manifester level. Greater Dominate (Ex) At 7th level and higher, a thrallherd does not have to pay 2 additional power points when she augments psionic dominate to affect animals, fey, giants, magical beasts, and monstrous humanoids. This reduced point cost does not increase the save DC of the power as if she had spent the additional power points. Superior Dominate (Ex) At 9th level, a thrallherd does not have to pay 4 additional power points when she augments psionic dominate to affect aberrations, dragons, elementals, and outsiders (in addition to the creature types mentioned in the greater dominate ability). This reduced point cost does not increase the save DC of the power as if she had spent the additional power points. Twofold Master (Ex) new powers are nice, but as a telepath, that means you're forgoing psionic charm until 9th lvl, and dominate until 11th. you'll probably want them earlier...i know i would. Human is probably your best bet, simply because that extra feat could be Inquisitor, a prereq for the class. If stoutheart halfling is allowed, i'd likely go for that, but i like small races... Complete Psionic is meh...some things inside are nice (Ardent, some of the new powers, some PrC's for the soulkinfe), but for the most part the book's just not worth it. Illithid legacy feats aren't worth it, in my opinion, especially if you're comparing them to Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Endowment, Greater Endowment, Psychic Meditation, and the like. Since almost all of your "key" powers are Will Negates type, getting that save DC as high as possible is key. Also, check out the Mind's Eye Article on Telepaths (Google Search: Mind's Eye Telepath) for this key little tidbit: Telepathic Communication You gain the supernatural ability to communicate with any creature with your telepathy. Level: 5th. Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level. Benefit: You gain the supernatural ability telepathy from page 316 of the Monster Manual. You can communicate telepathically with any other creature that has a language within 5 feet per manifester level. You can address multiple creatures at once telepathically, although maintaining telepathic conversation with more than one creature at a time is just as difficult as simultaneously speaking and listening to multiple people at the same time. Harbinger Your mental attacks have a specific symbolism to them that aids you in your mental combat. Level: 5th. Replaces: The bonus feat at 5th level. Prerequisite: You must also take the power false sensory input at 5th level. Benefit: You have learned to incorporate symbolism into your psionic attacks and defenses. When you manifest powers that specifically target another's mind or defend your mind, you gain an augmentation option. Augment:If you spend an additional 5 power points, you can add a mental illusionary aspect to your attack. This takes the form of a harbinger, a mental symbol that conveys a confusing or threatening message to the target's mind and momentarily distracts or disables them. The target gets a Will save to negate the effects of the harbinger. If the target fails the Will save, the power you manifest is considered 1d3 levels higher than its actual level for purposes of DC. The form of the harbinger can vary wildly. An offensive power could have a harbinger of a sword, a flame, or a spider. A defensive power could have a harbinger of a shield, a wall, or brambles with thorns If you have Telepathy, and the DM allows it, try to get "Mindsight" from Lords of Madness (pg 176, iirc, on a sidebar in the Tsochari section)...detection automatically within your telepathy range is too nice to pass up. -the hamster
Narthon 10-27-07, 01:33 PM	Telepathic Communication seems much more useful than Harbringer, especially if I do go thralheard. Anything from Lords of Madness would probably be allowed, the dm is pretty lenient as far as that goes. As I find more out about specific rules, I'll add more info.
CrimsonDeath 10-28-07, 04:05 AM	Many people believe that Telepath is the worst flavor of Psion for a Thrallherd base. A widely held opinion is that Charm, Dominate, and Schism are the only powers from the Telepath-specific list that are worth getting. If you plan on going into Thrallherd anyway, it could pay off to start out with another primary discipline, use Hidden Talent or Expanded Knowledge to learn Mindlink, and pick up Schism with another Expanded Knowledge later if you want it. An exception would be if you eventually wanted Psychic Chirurgery. You need to be a Telepath to manage that pre-Epic.
Lokathor 10-28-07, 08:45 AM	If the game is planned to last until 8th level powers are available, Mind Seed is also a very very cool Telepath Only power.
Narthon 10-28-07, 10:00 AM	I'm not sure about thralheard yet. I may just use psionic dominate to fake it. I'm more into the idea that the character can control the minds of all around him, I'm not sure that I'd even need the thrall and believers. A psionic thrall is pretty much needed to make metaconcert at all worthwhile though.
psionichamster 10-28-07, 10:46 AM	Metaconcert Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] Level: Psychic warrior 5, telepath 5 Display: Visual; see text Manifesting Time: 1 minute Range: 20 ft. Target: You and up to nine other willing psionic creatures in range Duration: 1 min./level (D) Power Points: 9 You link your psychic might with other psionic creatures, creating an entity more powerful than the sum of its parts. When you manifest this power, a number of power points you designate flows from each participant into a collective pool. One individual is chosen as the metaconcert conductor by mutual consent of the other participants (this is usually the manifester, but doesn’t have to be). Until the power ends, this conductor directs the efforts of the group. Misty strands of glowing power link the brows of all the participants in a complex and shifting pattern. All the powers of each participant are known to the mental entity created with metaconcert (which is under the conductor’s command). This entity can’t take any more actions than a normal individual, but it manifests all its powers more effectively. Each participant contributing to the entity provides a cumulative +1 bonus to save DCs that apply when manifesting a power or using a psi-like ability. Likewise, each individual provides a cumulative +1 bonus when the entity makes its own saving throws in response to powers or psi-like abilities. If the psionic entity takes ability damage from a psionic attack the total is divided among all the members as determined by the conductor. If the entity manifests a power that has an XP cost, all the participants pay an equal share (the conductor pays the remainder if the cost can’t be divided evenly). Once linked, the participants must remain within a 20-foot-radius area, and as a group can move at a speed of 10 feet. If a participant moves outside the 20-foot-radius area occupied by the others (whether willingly or involuntarily), that individual drops out of the group, and the power point pool of the metaconcert is instantly recalculated. All participants who leave before a metaconcert ends or is dismissed reclaim a number of power points equal to the current power point pool divided by the number of members. If the conductor drops out, the power ends. That same number of points is removed from the power point pool. When a metaconcert ends normally or is dismissed, remaining power points in the pool are divided among all the participants (the conductor receives the remainder if the points can’t be divided evenly). Augment For every additional power point you spend, this power’s duration increases by 1 minute. so, get yourself about 10 psionic thralls...they don't have to be high level, just enough to throw in about 3-4 pp each... manifest Psionic Dominate on say, a dragon, or something else big and hella-scary. DC goes WAY up (+10 from metaconcert, + int, + augment, + etc) and you get a happy new friend with bite/claw/claw/wing/wing/tail attack routine. for real cheatery, find a Roc, do this to him. You now have the equivalant of an attack helicopter that can fly @ 100' for 8 hours a day, for practically forever. yes, thrallherd is very fun, especially if you use your minions with care and style. plus, having a large, scary psychic warrior bodyguard (or hell, shaper bodyguard) is nice. -the hamster
Narthon 10-28-07, 07:01 PM	In a mostly non-psionic campaign, I wonder if I can count on that many, or any, psionic beleivers. Aren't they most likely to be commoners or other NPC classes?
Lokathor 10-28-07, 10:46 PM	The Thrallherd (Ex) ability uses the rules for Leadership except where specified otherwise. The Followers (believers) use the rules for Cohorts (Thralls) except where specified. You can attract a Cohort "of a particular race, class, and alignment". Followers do not list any exceptions to this. So, you can select the race, class, and alignment of the followers you get. In 3.0 it was different from this, but the 3.5 rules let you select the race, class, and alignment for each follower as well as for your cohort.
Sagetim 10-29-07, 02:14 AM	So, a new "evil character" campaign is starting soon. I think I want to try a psion for it and need some advice. The other known characters will be a halfling rogue into assassin and a cleric which may be human or drow. There will be a third 4th character, but the player has given no clue as to what it is. I think I want a telepath, and my main question is if I should stick with it or go into thralheard. Is the 1st level manafesting loss a big problem? Also, could you recomend some races to me? Human seems obvious for the bonus feat and lack of stat penalty. None of the races in the XPH seem to be worth taking in the long run. Finally, is it worth it to get Complete Psionic for the mind flayer legacy feats? They seem like they would be a great addition to this build, but I've heard the book is terrible. Thank you for your time. go Elan if you want an immortal telepath badguy, and go Elan Telepath/Thrallherd if you want an immortal king of an army that worships him as if he were a god. Elan immortality is very nice in the long run. When you're evil buddies croak from old age, you'll be going strong. When that drow cleric (who will HAVE to be a female drow to be a drow cleric) dies of old age at 750, you'll be going strong. If that unknown other person goes wizard then lich, you'll still outlast the bugger. Because when you both turn 5000, he'll be dust, and you'll be walking around. That, and think about it...have evil plans that take longer than the lifetimes of your minions ever fail? the hero's die of old age before they can twart you. If you take things slow you can build up the most uber and complex defensive system around by making profession checks and pretending to be the local scribe or something. oh, and: http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a359/Sagetim/thrallherdposter.jpg minotaur psychic warrior/pyrokineticist. mmmmm
Behaigo 10-29-07, 12:01 PM	I'm working on making a elan telepath/thrallheard with the plan in mind of making an artificial city as a base of opperations, making all my beleivers pretend to be normal citizens in a normal city completley under my controll until I finaly launch my master plan :devil:
DracoPhoenix 11-05-07, 10:30 AM	Slightly freaky - something similar for our up & coming campaign. Though: 1) I'm looking at using more of the telepaths powers to manipulate people (dupe someone (a king...) into thinking we were childhood friends, once in-separable). I might investigate an egoist or shaper though (as you get charm & dom). 2) I'm packing Landlord - Aiming for a shaper thrall (Planar base via Genesis power stone + cheaper construction (telekinesis / fabricate etc)). Lemme see, @PC L10, you'll have 2x L9 manifesters at PC L15 you'll have x2 ML13s (you + #2) and one ML14 (the 1st Thrall :uh-huh:). Meta concert would be useful, as would fusion. Psychic Chirgery would be a must though :smirk: Race wise, I've taken Elan. Yes the bonus human feat is good. But the Immortal thing is better for 3 psions with a taste for power. Just how many epic characters can the DM send after yours?