Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kronos451 01-10-07, 09:18 AM	Just a Q? If you had t build a Psionic army, How would you list them. What build would you use as your General. (Its very hard to try and translate from my brain to my fingers) Any help is welcome. your friend. Kronos.
ShaRd2000 01-10-07, 09:34 AM	Are you talking an entire army made of only psionic participants, or can said army have other non psionic classes in it? Personally, I'd have fighter and barbarian meatshields interspersed with psionic "squads"... I dunno, something about an all psionic army just tends to say "No" to me. Like having an all cleric army. But with mind bullets!
kronos451 01-10-07, 09:38 AM	Im Planing on non psionic crossclasses for some but other wise its all psionic. (part of my story line)
ShaRd2000 01-10-07, 10:17 AM	I would think that a seer would make an impressive general, as the most successful generals are able to apply information and skill gained from many sources to the battlefield. And the seer is all about info gathering and power through knowledge/foresight. Say your general is high level - Metafac an enemy general or commander, remote view onto him, gather info. Metafac might tell you that he met with his lieutenants not too long ago, and you might be able to hypercognition something in the area of "they meet up 2 times a week" or what not. You could even go so far as to just try to assassinate him through the remote viewing with psychic crush or the like. If he/she's epic level, the higher power save-or-dies will work through remote viewing as well. And that's just one simple example. Having a general with foresight can effect a battle in soooo many ways, it might just end up in having the general's army in the most advantageous position in each and every encounter. I've never really thought about making a General of a character though, as large scale battles in D20 scare me. This might require more thought...
kronos451 01-10-07, 12:44 PM	So a 15th level seer / 14th level PW / 10th level keneticist / 10th level pyrokeneticist / 5th level fighter that would look like a nice build for a General...yes?
Tempest Stormwind 01-10-07, 01:03 PM	It's illegal. Seer and kineticist are the same class (psion). See, step one in building a psionic army is learning the psionic rules. I've got some ideas but 1) your request is hard to follow and 2) you don't seem to understand enough about psionics to follow my suggestions anyway.
kronos451 01-10-07, 01:41 PM	:headexplo I understand plenty about Psionics!! When I went through the XPH My understanding of the Psion class was that it was made up of something like subclasses and multiclassing as a psion more than once, but not reclassing as a previous subclass was considered ok. Now if you want to insult me please do so but I am here for help and CONstructive criticism. The rules are interpreted differently by everyone, You, me, and everyother person the plays. Soo, you can do one of two things 1) being you get off you pedistal for a few minuets and exspress your opinions, witch i am more than open to or 2) you could be courtious not say anything and go along your mary way pigheadishness:rant: :rant: No offence is ment by this but I am not here to be insulted, I have read many of your posts and respect your opinon but dont put your self higher than me because i'm here to learn.
Tempest Stormwind 01-10-07, 02:07 PM	You want constructive, give more information. At the VERY least: 1) Starting level. (By the way, level 54? You'd have better luck on the Epic boards.) 2) Goal of army. 3) Size of army. 4) Books allowed. 5) House rules present. Without this, we're not going to be much help. Oh, and there's no such thing as a subclass in 3.5. Instead, you have the PSION class, which has the DISCIPLINE class feature. This is sort of like wizards with their specializations, chosen at level 1. You can't take level 1 over and over.
kronos451 01-10-07, 03:45 PM	1) You and I wont get into why I need such a high level character. 2) World domination 3)very large to save paper I want to a lot more than one NPC to a sheet 4)My PC's can use any book that is produced by WotC as long as I get to look through it before anything from it is used 5)we follow the books as close as our understanding alows. one thing that I have house ruled on is Natral AC, I let that stack for my own sanity I have four players that are 10-15 the rest are 18-40 and the younger ones like to wine a lot and thats what I did to get them to shut up. so in stead of keneticist make him a seer 20 /PW 14 / Pyro 10 /and fighter 10
Manyfist 01-10-07, 04:12 PM	Why a seer for a General? It doesn't seem very Militaristic, also why so high level? How did this General get so high level? I would go Egoist 20/Psychic Warrior 10/Soulknife 10/Soulbow 4/Pyro 10. For this uber level 54 Psionic General. As my personal rule, I don't go over level 40, but thats me.
kronos451 01-10-07, 05:44 PM	well his high level is due to the fact that I have 10 templated thrugh the roof characters and the only way that I can give them a decent challange when they hit 20th level is to uber high level characters Its all part of my story line. some time after they hit 20th level there is going to be huge out break psions. I have a Necromancer that I'll be cross classing as a psion and a lich that I still have to make that i'll cross class as a psion but I want one of my three leaders to be a psion from the beging and a really high level so that he can push the other two around I guess i dont know all of the particulars about what i want yet. I do know That I want a Psion. I just dont know what class I want to use.
MasonZII 01-10-07, 06:51 PM	Take Thrallherd, there's nothing you can do with a level 54 that you can't do better with a level 54, 53, and 52. Your general would be able to easily afford to get any power he wanted through Chirurgery, so psion discipline won't matter much. If you're looking to waste your PCs, have your general learn Soul Crystal (Incarnum) and Quintessence (make an at-will item, preferably), and spend a few months cranking out crystals of all his most powerful manifestations, and preserving them in quintessence. With a little tinkering (have Fine followers and shrunk crystals, tack hundreds of the little guys to a wall, hyperoptimize one guy to win initiative and open a Gate in front of them pointing at the PCs), you can have your lowbie followers open up with these crystals simultaneously, hitting the party with dozens of applications of every worthwhile offensive power, all augmented to your general's level. Stupid, sure, but it sounds like this game crossed that line a long time ago.
kronos451 01-11-07, 11:35 AM	Take Thrallherd, there's nothing you can do with a level 54 that you can't do better with a level 54, 53, and 52. Your general would be able to easily afford to get any power he wanted through Chirurgery, so psion discipline won't matter much. If you're looking to waste your PCs, have your general learn Soul Crystal (Incarnum) and Quintessence (make an at-will item, preferably), and spend a few months cranking out crystals of all his most powerful manifestations, and preserving them in quintessence. With a little tinkering (have Fine followers and shrunk crystals, tack hundreds of the little guys to a wall, hyperoptimize one guy to win initiative and open a Gate in front of them pointing at the PCs), you can have your lowbie followers open up with these crystals simultaneously, hitting the party with dozens of applications of every worthwhile offensive power, all augmented to your general's level. Stupid, sure, but it sounds like this game crossed that line a long time ago. Ok the Thrallherd is a PrC I need a Base Psion class to go with it.
MasonZII 01-11-07, 12:35 PM	Yes, but like I said, any psion discipline will work since you'll easily be able to afford purchasing the Psionic Chirurgery to transfer every power to your general. Telepath probably has the most interesting high-end powers for the build (Mind Seed = bump your hundreds of followers up to level 46 megapsions, and of course True Mind Switch the general into some ungodly epic body), so you could easily go with that. But yeah, you should probably do some more reading. This should be easy.
PhaedrusXY 01-11-07, 11:35 PM	THIS (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=327720) might give you some ideas.
Bacris 01-11-07, 11:42 PM	I would honestly say Seer / Thrallherd. Seer CAN take some of the egoist powers :P Seer has the tactical advantage over an egoist when it comes to leading. En egoist makes a better grunt, a seer makes a better general. The seer has insight into what might happen, who might do what, why they might do it, and what to do to avoid such a situation. An egoist can heal himself and dish out damage. Which one would you rather have behind the scenes directing the army? The one who can duel the best or the one who can lead the best?
Crystalforged 01-12-07, 12:44 AM	Honestly I'm not to sure its necessary that the General be a seer. He NEEDS seer and the more he has the better but I'm not sure its all that important that he is gathering this information himself. He can delegate. What I see as what you really should have is someone who can stratagize, organize the troops, keep up morale, build discipline, etc. The general needs needs to interact with people. He can get information from others but he needs his troops to follow HIM. That sounds more like a Telepath to me, particularly if you toss in thrallheard levels.
Tiarn 01-12-07, 01:09 AM	What I see as what you really should have is someone who can stratagize, organize the troops, keep up morale, build discipline, etc. The general needs needs to interact with people. He can get information from others but he needs his troops to follow HIM. That sounds more like a Telepath to me, particularly if you toss in thrallheard levels. Yeah, but if he's the general shouldn't we assume he can boost morale, get people to follow him, etc. without some sort of supernatural means? Frankly if he can't he really isn't a decent leader at all. A decent leader merely needs a decent charisma, not powers.
BluEnigma 01-12-07, 01:37 AM	Sure. And if you're trying to kill someone, you don't need a sword or a gun. You should be able to do it with your bare hands. If you can't, that doesn't make you a very good fighter, now does it?
Tiarn 01-12-07, 01:58 AM	Sure. And if you're trying to kill someone, you don't need a sword or a gun. You should be able to do it with your bare hands. If you can't, that doesn't make you a very good fighter, now does it? That's kind of an extreme of what I was saying. What I was trying to express is that telepath doesn't seem like a good idea for the general of this army. In an army a telepath should be a spy, they are the ones that can infiltrate another army or stronghold, find out information no one even said, and escape undetected (at least with a few modified memories). A general shouldn't need powers to have the loyalty of his men. If that were the case all it takes to defeat this army is a few good dispel psionics.
BluEnigma 01-12-07, 02:11 AM	Fair enough. I agree, though, that telepath is a more "spy" approach. Perhaps seer, making good use of the Missive power?
Tiarn 01-12-07, 08:06 AM	Fair enough. I agree, though, that telepath is a more "spy" approach. Perhaps seer, making good use of the Missive power? Now I agree that this general, whatever discipline he may follow, definitely needs missive, even better: mass missive. Simple way to give orders to the entire battlefield.
Bacris 01-12-07, 08:51 AM	Nah, that would easily be a subcommander. The general needs to know all the information available, not just the information that can be communicated person-to-person. Powers such as Hypercognition and the like would make for great strategists. A seer / thrallherd with a telepath thrall would make a great general.
Tiarn 01-12-07, 08:59 AM	Nah, that would easily be a subcommander.... ...A seer / thrallherd with a telepath thrall would make a great general. Yeah, you're right. I think I agree, this would definitely be the best build for the general. Unless you wanted to go kineticist. :D
MasonZII 01-12-07, 01:57 PM	Again, pointless discussion, as an epic thrallherd can easily and quickly get every power in the game implanted into him from his 17th level telepath thralls (even if you don't provide epic progression for thrallherd, as the general could start this pre-epic). They keep paying the full XP price of Chirurgery, and use Reformation to change their Extended Knowledge feats. If a thrall is tapped out, the general kills him and he's replaced the next day with a fresh one. 9th level powers would have to be researched by the thralls, a bit of a slowdown, but there aren't many of them. Once the general had access to every power, he could then continue leveling himself and his thralls, ending up with a pair of 53rd and 52nd level behemoths (after all the powers were learned, I'd kill the telepath thralls and make the final pair one arcane and one divine). And of course, if the general is mindseeding his followers (into copies of himself when he was level 46), they're ending up with 10 levels of thrallherd as well, letting them each attract more followers, who can in turn be mindseeded as well. If experience is short, use the BoVD sacrifice rules to slaughter unseeded followers and pay for mindseeds. So it wouldn't take much work for this fight to be the heavily-templated (oh noes!) PCs facing every other sentient lifeform in the multiverse, all bumped up to epic levels. So no, discipline doesn't freaking matter. At that level, without using any tricks or loopholes and only minor optimization, it's very simple for any character to transcend virtually any such gameplay limitation.
Yuntil 01-12-07, 03:34 PM	Simply do 1/3 of your army as Psions. Level dependant on need. Do 1/2 as Pyschic Warriors. The rest of your army are basic fighter, rangers, clerics or whats needed. as far as the high general leader guy, any Psion will work. If you are doing 40+ levels. Psions are very powerful. Heck do a Psion20/???
Bacris 01-12-07, 04:04 PM	But it's not a pointless discussion if you want to have a character that is realistic to believe they came into that situation... I really dislike when people only look at the end result as opposed to the time it took to get there... Even if we're talking extremes of level 54 - that's still 53 levels to get there - and if that person has been a general for an extended period of time, it would make more sense (as realistic as that term is to use in this discussion) as a seer. I don't care that the end result can be changed based upon X, Y, Z, what about the journey it took to get there?
MasonZII 01-12-07, 05:43 PM	I don't care that the end result can be changed based upon X, Y, Z, what about the journey it took to get there? The above discussion of psion discipline was mechanical in nature. Mechanically, it doesn't matter, for the reasons I outlined. The OP asked for mechanical advice, not roleplaying advice. I kind of take the view that everyone should be trusted to come up with their own roleplaying. If the OP needs to resort to epic enemies in order to challenge his players, he's clearly in need of some optimization advice, not flavor. Any psion discipline could be used as a thematic back-history for a rising warlord. So even if we feel it's useful to give unsolicited roleplaying advice, it's a pointless discussion. I don't get the "makes more sense as a seer" bit, anyways. Thrallherd is basically a telepath-oriented PrC, and telepath 5 is the "normal" lead-in. Beyond thrallherd, a dip in mindbender is the next highest recommendation, as telepathically ordering one's troops is of unique value. Telepath 9/mindbender 1/thrallherd 10 would be the simplest way to acquire these core abilities pre-epic; everything else can be attained after that. The two most relevant seer abilities, remote viewing and metafaculty, both have 1 hour manifesting times. What sense would it make for a leader to give such things so much of his undivided attention, when he could delegate it to an underling so easily? Actually, decking out a few low-level followers (preferably with somehow amazing Spot/Listen checks) with sense third eyes would be a great way to keep tabs on things. They could track enemy forces 24/7 (if working in shifts, they can move the scrying sensor once a round), and a moving army would require hundreds of castings of screen a day to avoid being tracked. Cheap and handy compliment to some seer underlings.
Lyric 01-13-07, 07:40 AM	Thrallherd is a great idea, consider also perhaps Uncarnate (the defensive boons are wonderful) and if you want to be rather irritating, declare magic/psionic transparency in your campaigns, play a 20 soulknife / 10 kinetic / 10 uncarnate / 10 thrallherd / 4 kinetic and toss an anti-psionic shell over yourself.. your uncarnate ability "&" some or all of your mindblade abilities remain intact while those you fight against are left with mundane weaponry completely inefective against you. Use your epic abilities through your followers to expand that effect and protect vs other epic enchantments.. or.. merely create a 20 soulknife / 20 lurk / 10 soulbow / 4 order of the bow initiate and send him out to assassinate everyone in the world one or two rounds at a time.. (incidently, a 20 soulknife / 20 lurk combo alone, with two weapon style, a few feats, and striking with his primary and offhand shortsword mind blades, before additional attacks... can do (depending) somewhere in the ballpark of, 41d6 + 12d8 + 2d4 + 34 + (Str Bonus * 1.5) x 2 or min: 89 / max: 384 before strength in damage... again, before that 2nd and 3rd (non-offhand) attack come into play from your class BAB.) I shuld note that listing was for opponents of good or evil alignment (see lurk augment: planar attack). using just sneak attack vs anyone (including undead if you're smart enough to take 5 levels of Illumine Soul) comes to a mere 30d6 + 12d8 + 2d4 + 34 + (Str Bonus * 1.5) x 2 or 318 + (Str * 1.5) x 2. All using 1 augment and 1 psionic power. This could be very repetative.. how many hp does the party have as a whole?? :duel: :plotting: Edit: Oh, I should mention, the above #'s were from a Gestalt build, a true 40 lvl character will do much more damage with the aid of epic feats and a higher BAB and stats.... heck, just toss a few of these guys into your follower tree and sick them on the players, they'll sneak up on them and bam!! be real evil, make the lurk/soulknives uncarnate as well :) grant them anti-psionic field items and let them go to town. :)
Lycanthromancer 01-13-07, 12:36 PM	The uncarnate's ability to go incorporeal is negated by a Null Psionics Field.
MasonZII 01-13-07, 02:15 PM	Shed Body (Su) Yehp. Not legal. Besides, an item of constant Ghostform would be a tiny bit of the dude's epic wealth, so it certainly isn't worth 10 levels to achieve the same effect.
Manyfist 01-13-07, 02:43 PM	Yehp. Not legal. Besides, an item of constant Ghostform would be a tiny bit of the dude's epic wealth, so it certainly isn't worth 10 levels to achieve the same effect. At 10th level: Uncarnate (Ex) So it is worth 10 levels for incorporeal that you don't wink out when an Anti-Magic/Psionic field comes to play. I don't think there is an item for Ghostform, I am not sure theres even a spell/power like that. Besides the guy is 50+ 10 levels and he still has 40 other levels.
MasonZII 01-13-07, 09:55 PM	Uh, it's way worse when you gain the incorporeal subtype permanently. Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. With Shed Body you could at least just hope for a ruling that the supernatural ability would simply stop working, returning you to your body. Uncarnate, you wink out, no questions asked. Ghostform is Spell Compendium, 8th level, 1 round of incorporeality per caster level.
Lyric 01-14-07, 07:50 PM	The uncarnate's ability to go incorporeal is negated by a Null Psionics Field. Not the 10th lvl version it's not, that is an EX ability, not SU :) therefore, he remains uncarnate. ;) Quote from the SRD on AntiMagic Field: Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.) 1) I'm not undead 2) The effect that made me incorporeal could very well be considered instantaneous since it never stops and I actually use a separate ability (SU) to become physical again.. I don't think that was intending to work against PC's making them 'wink out' ;) You are pure thought, not imbued with any planar energies that would be severed by the field. It's entirely inherant..
MasonZII 01-14-07, 11:34 PM	Read my above quote, taken from the special abilities listing. By that passage, "incorporeal creatures" wink out. Further, it isn't an instantaneous conjuration, so #2 has no relevance. The rules frequently discuss incorporeality in the context of the undead ("Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies."), but their spotty overspecificity on the topic should be overlooked when it is directly contradicted elsewhere. If you can convince a DM that a living incorporeal is completely unaffected by an antimagic field, please post about it, we could all use the laugh.
Manyfist 01-15-07, 12:19 AM	Read my above quote, taken from the special abilities listing. By that passage, "incorporeal creatures" wink out. Further, it isn't an instantaneous conjuration, so #2 has no relevance. The rules frequently discuss incorporeality in the context of the undead ("Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies."), but their spotty over specificity on the topic should be overlooked when it is directly contradicted elsewhere. If you can convince a DM that a living incorporeal is completely unaffected by an antimagic field, please post about it, we could all use the laugh. Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm You're still living as an Uncarnate in the sense you're NOT UNDEAD. At 10th level, a psion uncarnate becomes a being of pure psionic consciousness. This ability is similar to shed body, except the character is permanently incorporeal (and gains that subtype). If the character desires, he can become corporeal once per day for up to 1 minute, but he spends the rest of his time as an entity of mind untethered by the physical world. You're not UNDEAD. You don't "Wink out" when you encounter a Anti-Magic/Psionic field. edit: A Living Incorporeal example: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm Unbodied: - Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Incorporeal, Psionic) Str -, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 15 An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see. Nothing about winking out.
Lyric 01-15-07, 01:46 AM	Thank you. :) What's that? Do you hear? Yes, that's right. Silence.. no laughter. :) Though I think I heard a player snickering in the corner somewhere as he yet again walked incorporeal through an antimagic/null psionic field.. ;)
MasonZII 01-15-07, 02:20 AM	Guess I'll say it again: Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal creatures, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic) Haveagoodday. And to preempt the expected response, yes, this rule wins. The text of the arcane AMF spell is mute on what happens to living incorporeals, so this is the only text dealing with the issue. And according to it, they wink out.
Tiarn 01-15-07, 04:25 AM	Wow, the rules blatantly contradict each other. I feel like I'm reading an Old World of Darkness book.
Manyfist 01-15-07, 07:42 AM	ANTIMAGIC An antimagic field spell or effect cancels magic altogether. An antimagic effect has the following powers and characteristics. • No supernatural ability, spell-like ability, or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities still work). • Antimagic does not dispel magic; it suppresses it. Once a magical effect is no longer affected by the antimagic (the antimagic fades, the center of the effect moves away, and so on), the magic returns. Spells that still have part of their duration left begin functioning again, magic items are once again useful, and so forth. • Spell areas that include both an antimagic area and a normal area, but are not centered in the antimagic area, still function in the normal area. If the spell’s center is in the antimagic area, then the spell is suppressed. • Golems and other constructs, elementals, outsiders, and corporeal undead, still function in an antimagic area (though the antimagic area suppresses their spellcasting and their supernatural and spell-like abilities normally). If such creatures are summoned or conjured, however, see below. • Summoned or conjured creatures of any type, as well as incorporeal undead, wink out if they enter the area of an antimagic effect. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. • Magic items with continuous effects do not function in the area of an antimagic effect, but their effects are not canceled (so the contents of a bag of holding are unavailable, but neither spill out nor disappear forever). • Two antimagic areas in the same place do not cancel each other out, nor do they stack. • Wall of force, prismatic wall, and prismatic sphere are not affected by antimagic. Break enchantment, dispel magic, and greater dispel magic spells do not dispel antimagic. Mage’s disjunction has a 1% chance per caster level of destroying an antimagic field. If the antimagic field survives the disjunction, no items within it are disjoined. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html Contradicts http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic Also btw D20srd.org hasn't been updated since 2/20/06. Since the 1st one is from WoTC's own site, you can't argue anymore. Face it you've lost.
Lycanthromancer 01-15-07, 11:10 AM	You do realize that the pretty much the ONLY creatures with incorporeality as an [Ex] ability when that was written were undead, yes? And they wink out in an AMF. You're arguing on semantics now; after all, being undead alone isn't enough justification to make something wink out in an AMF, since corporeal undead function exactly like living creatures do when exposed to one. And why would an AMF function any differently with a living creature?
DwarvinJedi 01-15-07, 11:53 AM	My DMG says Incorporeal Undead and the Errata has no mention of a change to this, so the d20SRD.org people must have missed a word
MasonZII 01-15-07, 05:21 PM	Since the 1st one is from WoTC's own site, you can't argue anymore. Face it you've lost. As I pointed out way at the top, the core rules frequently discuss incorporeality solely in the context of the undead. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. A sentence like this conflates incorporeal undead with incorporeal creature. As Lyc points out, it's nonsense, as the winking out is clearly due to incorporeality rather than being undead. The justification that this is because the rules try not to let players get winked out is further nonsense. The Ghost template can be taken by PCs, making them incorporeal undead. Outside of the XPH, non-undead incorporeals just don't exist in core. And in the XPH, Null Psionics Field doesn't wink out anything other than Astral Constructs and summons, and yet the text takes care to specify that corporeal undead are unaffected, making it seem like it's sure missing some text. In short, the rules are stupidly inconsistent on this point. I'd still be happy to point and laugh at any DM who lets their players game incorporeality in this fashion. But in any case, even if one allows Uncarnates to exist in an AMF, their equipment has become corporeal and they can't pass through matter unless they shed all their belongings. They can't use any of their incorporeal abilities, and none of their worn armor functions (Uncarnate Armor is disabled, and Shed Body references Uncarnate Armor as the reason why the material armor still works, so Uncarnate (ex) won't provide this functionality on its own). Oh yeah, and they have no Strength score, so they can't move in all that corporeal equipment. So an Uncarnate is an immobile and unarmored (it's on them, but they receive no armor bonus) sitting duck in an AMF (people outside the field can fire certain spells into it which could easily kill the Uncarnate), unless they either try to take their minute of corporeality (a single casting of AMF can outlast this of course) or drop all their equipment.
Dumat 01-16-07, 04:01 PM	I agree with the Seer suggestion. Metafaculty your opponent. Now you know everything needed to prepare a defense or attack against him specifically, who he met with (potentially exposing traitors in your midst) etc. Seer hands down would annihilate any other class in command of an army. he doesn't have to do the damage stuff himself. That's what the army is for. Seer knows what you're going to do and can control a battle even better than a telepath, because while a telepath can find out what you're planning to do, a seer can find out what you're going to do regardless of your plan at any given moment. And to intone a trusty cliche, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. You don't want your enemy's plan. You want his future action.
Lyric 01-16-07, 04:26 PM	somebody is a little irked that someone else came up with a clever use of the uncarnate(ex) ability and the AMF. Considering the easiest combo is a kinetic of at least 15th level, I'm surprised there is such a big uproar... after all, someone who is 'not' a soulknife, or who does not have some other (ex) ability to work inside an AMF will be purely defensive in such a situation when not winking out. So for most people not gestalting, it's not going to be a good combo under epic levels, and in a magic/psionics are different campaign, that makes it even worse... basically the combo enhances the characters defense and wipes out a lot of his apponents buffs.. if you aren't clever enough to change tactics in the face of a close range advantage, that's your prob. :P though I formally apologize to the author of this web for bringing up a tactic that derailed his thread for so long do to the nitpicking of grouchy people. ;)
kronos451 01-17-07, 09:28 AM	somebody is a little irked that someone else came up with a clever use of the uncarnate(ex) ability and the AMF. Considering the easiest combo is a kinetic of at least 15th level, I'm surprised there is such a big uproar... after all, someone who is 'not' a soulknife, or who does not have some other (ex) ability to work inside an AMF will be purely defensive in such a situation when not winking out. So for most people not gestalting, it's not going to be a good combo under epic levels, and in a magic/psionics are different campaign, that makes it even worse... basically the combo enhances the characters defense and wipes out a lot of his apponents buffs.. if you aren't clever enough to change tactics in the face of a close range advantage, that's your prob. :P though I formally apologize to the author of this web for bringing up a tactic that derailed his thread for so long do to the nitpicking of grouchy people. ;) No thats fine I've accually been reading the whole scuffle. When you referance a book that I can get my hands on I go and read what may be in question. I agree with the Seer suggestion. Metafaculty your opponent. Now you know everything needed to prepare a defense or attack against him specifically, who he met with (potentially exposing traitors in your midst) etc. Seer hands down would annihilate any other class in command of an army. he doesn't have to do the damage stuff himself. That's what the army is for. Seer knows what you're going to do and can control a battle even better than a telepath, because while a telepath can find out what you're planning to do, a seer can find out what you're going to do regardless of your plan at any given moment. And to intone a trusty cliche, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. You don't want your enemy's plan. You want his future action. The seer may be what I'll use my general for. Seer 20/ thrallherd 10/ psion Uncarnate 10/ war mind 10 I like this it'll do nicely. I'll beable to spy on my enemy attract more pisonic thrall and the war mind I can pass off as part of his underling days (and it looks like it can kick some a$$) BUT 1) taking the PrC Thrallherd, that won't interfear with the leadership feat will it? 2) A cohort(s) that will accent his/their general
Tempest Stormwind 01-17-07, 10:15 AM	No thats fine I've accually been reading the whole scuffle. When you referance a book that I can get my hands on I go and read what may be in question. The seer may be what I'll use my general for. Seer 20/ thrallherd 10/ psion Uncarnate 10/ war mind 10 I like this it'll do nicely. I'll beable to spy on my enemy attract more pisonic thrall and the war mind I can pass off as part of his underling days (and it looks like it can kick some a$$) BUT 1) taking the PrC Thrallherd, that won't interfear with the leadership feat will it? 2) A cohort(s) that will accent his/their general 1) Take War Mind pre-epic. You'll net a higher base attack bonus (it's one of the things that doesn't go up post-epic). 2) Reread the thrallherd ability; it explicitly says what happens with Leadership. Note that Thrallherd is better than Leadership in the same role.
kronos451 01-17-07, 10:28 AM	thats a bummer oh well. thanx
Lyric 01-17-07, 03:42 PM	Indeed, take the Warmind pre-epic, it's not decent enough post epic, if post epic, I'd say go for the Psychic warrior instead. :) You may also consider the powers you want access to when deciding if you want a Seer or not. If metafaculty is the only power you want, you might seek other ways to gain it. You could use a feat and be an Egoist (which fits better with the Warmind) but not so well with the uncarnate, also keep in mind when uncarnate you won't have a Str score, some of the warmind's abilities are Str bonuses. but for the one minute a day you're physical again :) it works fine. You might also be a Telepath, if you like the 'controlling masses' theme.. You couuld also go Ardent, you'd get fewer powers, but a nice spread to choose from, as well as some interesting additional powers on top. You'd have the same power points as a psion though. :) I do like the Thrallherd/Uncarnate mix :) You'll be basically imortal and have followers who think of you as a "Great Spirit" type of divinity :) Basically you are a thought beacon ;)
Tempest Stormwind 01-17-07, 03:59 PM	Lyric: Uncarnates aren't immortal. Second, a society mind fits that bill far more. Unlike any other base class, it can actually fill the "distant benefactor" role needed for such a character. It'd work interesting with thrallherd as well, although it isn't necessary.
Lyric 01-18-07, 12:20 AM	I tend to think of beings of pure thought as ageless... somewhat the way a living construct needn't worry about age. Might be a non rulebook side effect, but to me it just makes sense.. and in this instance, immortality is referred to as agelessness, not the incapacity of dying. ;)
kronos451 01-18-07, 01:56 PM	what about an ardent?
Lyric 01-19-07, 01:05 AM	what about an ardent? An ardent gets the same number of power points as a Psion, but they don't have disciplines like Psions do, and about half as many powers (a.ka. a 10th lvl Psion has the same number of powers as a 20th lvl Ardent). However, an Ardent gets his powers by selecting Mantles over time. (And certain feats can gain additional mantles). Certain mantles grant access to powers at lower levels (and thus lower power costs) than a psion or even a psychic warrior would have access to. Also, certain powers are only available through ardent mantles (without that is, spending a feat on them) however, Ardent's are exceptionally proficient at certain powers, gaining augments not normally available to others using that power. Such as the a few of the following examples. Mantle Power Additional Augment Light & Darkness Control Light Effect of a Daylight or Darkness spell. Life True Metabolism Affect one additional creature touched. Fate Fate of One Reroll a third time. The listed effects here cost a few additional power points and the results listed are truncated, see the book for full details. The cool thing about mantles is that they are structured to slap together a variety of powers that fit a theme. (Magic, Knowledge, Light & Dark, Life, Law, Chaos, Protection, etc) Much like priestly domains. And like priestly domains, each mantle known grants the character a certain special ability. A few examples... Mantle Power Light & Dark Choose either Low Light vision or Darkvision for yourself. Life Use powers from this mantle as 1 ML higher. Magic Use Magic Device as class skill, gain additional ranks as if always a class skill. Magic/Psionics transparancy, i.e. dispel psionics or null psionics field works on spells too. Power For purposes of power points for this class, treat wis as 2 higher. Freedom +10 bonus (no type) to speed while psionically focused, expend focus to add ML to resist grapple or escape grapple checks. Again, these are just random mantles, you might wanna take some time to look them over and see which if any might work for your character. Depending on your character's mindset or philosphies, this might work better. I believe the freedom bonus would stack with the speed of thought bonus also for base speed. :) It's got a medium BAB range, if that's any benefit, Psion's only have a low BAB (+10 rather than +15).
Particle_Man 01-20-07, 10:36 AM	Getting away from the powerz stuff, here are some "cool factor" ideas: Part of the army should be SoulKnives. Another part should have a lot of Shapers (perhaps Shaper/Constructors) to create Droids...er, Astral Constructs. One Bard, to play the Star Wars theme song. And you are good to go! :)
Lyric 01-21-07, 01:20 AM	How about a group of soulknife lurks? I like that idea of shaper construct users :) Also uncarnate shapers :D "which is the real me? not that one, he's ghosty" ;) lol maybe some psychic warrior warforged :) then give them all bite of the wolf, claws of the beast, and the various upgrades for those powers... have your artificers augment them all (there are psionic artificers right?) and bam, instant droid/werewolf/assassin/beastwars movie :P they would be 'tough' to beat!
megageek12 01-22-07, 01:06 AM	My general would be a telepath/thrallherd, With ton's of warforged Ardent's(maybe divine minds...for the auras), and psionic artificers to buff them. Man, I love Eberron.
kronos451 01-22-07, 09:34 AM	An ardent gets the same number of power points as a Psion, but they don't have disciplines like Psions do, and about half as many powers (a.ka. a 10th lvl Psion has the same number of powers as a 20th lvl Ardent). However, an Ardent gets his powers by selecting Mantles over time. (And certain feats can gain additional mantles). Certain mantles grant access to powers at lower levels (and thus lower power costs) than a psion or even a psychic warrior would have access to. Also, certain powers are only available through ardent mantles (without that is, spending a feat on them) however, Ardent's are exceptionally proficient at certain powers, gaining augments not normally available to others using that power. Such as the a few of the following examples. Mantle Power Additional Augment Light & Darkness Control Light Effect of a Daylight or Darkness spell. Life True Metabolism Affect one additional creature touched. Fate Fate of One Reroll a third time. The listed effects here cost a few additional power points and the results listed are truncated, see the book for full details. The cool thing about mantles is that they are structured to slap together a variety of powers that fit a theme. (Magic, Knowledge, Light & Dark, Life, Law, Chaos, Protection, etc) Much like priestly domains. And like priestly domains, each mantle known grants the character a certain special ability. A few examples... Mantle Power Light & Dark Choose either Low Light vision or Darkvision for yourself. Life Use powers from this mantle as 1 ML higher. Magic Use Magic Device as class skill, gain additional ranks as if always a class skill. Magic/Psionics transparancy, i.e. dispel psionics or null psionics field works on spells too. Power For purposes of power points for this class, treat wis as 2 higher. Freedom +10 bonus (no type) to speed while psionically focused, expend focus to add ML to resist grapple or escape grapple checks. Again, these are just random mantles, you might wanna take some time to look them over and see which if any might work for your character. Depending on your character's mindset or philosphies, this might work better. I believe the freedom bonus would stack with the speed of thought bonus also for base speed. :) It's got a medium BAB range, if that's any benefit, Psion's only have a low BAB (+10 rather than +15). I understand how they work I'm trying figure out what would make the better general. Lyric: Uncarnates aren't immortal. Second, a society mind fits that bill far more. Unlike any other base class, it can actually fill the "distant benefactor" role needed for such a character. It'd work interesting with thrallherd as well, although it isn't necessary. Is the Society mind in the XPH or the CP If not where can I read up on that. My general would be a telepath/thrallherd, With ton's of warforged Ardent's(maybe divine minds...for the auras), and psionic artificers to buff them. Man, I love Eberron. the telepath has been weeded out (OOC)sorry its been a few days my computer at home has like 1000 :censored: viruses and my wife wont let me do anything to :censored: fix it :banghead: :hoppingma :headexplo so please bear with me if im not here (/OOC)
Tempest Stormwind 01-22-07, 01:38 PM	Is the Society mind in the XPH or the CP If not where can I read up on that.Untapped Potential, actually, but you can see most of it in my sig. The UTP version is the "official" version, though, and has far more support.
Khan the Destroyer 01-22-07, 02:29 PM	With a Thrallherd of that level, have one of your thralls be an Erudite, and the other as a Telepath I suppose. The Telepath can have Leadership (to take advantage of Epic Commander and Epic Leadership, that will be your psionic army). Like someone else suggested, this guy can have every power available, through his Erudite thrall, Psychic Cheurgery (sp?), and Thought Bottles.
Lyric 01-22-07, 02:43 PM	ooh, warforged divine minds sounds awesome :) (anything warforged sounds great ;)) but especially the idea of mechanical beings giving off an aura :) (am I glowing?!? :eek: ) I'd say.. warforged soulknife Lurks, epic level, as scouts and assassins.. warforged shaper/psychic warriors as the "I'm a tank, and I brought my own army" guys. :) (plus they could repair or heal themselves, always a plus) ;) A few Ardent/Sanctified mind's or Lurk/Slayers would be good for anti-psionic warfare:) And a few Uncarnate Tk'ers for general destruction, give them a few telepath powers to make use of the uncarnate's +1 to DC on his powers. :) A few clairsentient types might be good also, though you may prefer to have someone simply take a feat to learn metafaculty :)
kronos451 02-08-07, 12:27 PM	:bump:
Lyric 02-08-07, 09:31 PM	oooh, a shameless bump... AND taking over my spot as the last person who posted! any updates on this thread? did the army get used? reused? recycled?
kronos451 02-12-07, 11:06 AM	Im still trying to get a second put together so that I can introduce them both a once into the game im thinking an ardent would accent the gengeral well.
Lyric 02-12-07, 02:19 PM	Im still trying to get a second put together so that I can introduce them both a once into the game im thinking an ardent would accent the gengeral well. tell us more about this ardent :)
kronos451 02-14-07, 09:46 AM	Just an ardent with a thrallherd PrC and maybe some levels in wizard/sorcerer (still on my mind notlikely to happen) Thier race Githanki ( there angry with every thing or drow.
ninja1 02-14-07, 02:31 PM	Random Thoughts: There is no game-mechanics described in how an Elan is reborn into his new creature type (abberation). There is flavor text about how a council of Elder Elans, blah, blah, blah... I'd think an epic psionic Elan should know how it is done. As the DM you can rule what type of ritual mumbo jumbo goes into creating an Elan. I'd suggest having the general convert new recruits (from thrallherd) into Elans. Then you wouldn't have to worry about food and water for a whole army.
kronos451 02-15-07, 12:44 PM	wha.. :confused: :ahem: that was compleatly off the topic of what is currently being disscused.
ninja1 02-15-07, 03:10 PM	Just a Q? If you had t build a Psionic army, How would you list them. What build would you use as your General. (Its very hard to try and translate from my brain to my fingers) When you wrote "How would you list them"... I thought that it asked how would I build my army (soldier-wise). Sorry, I had a hard time trying to translate your post to my brain. ;) That being said, I have a similar story line (non-epic) that uses Elan Thrallherds that convert their recruits into Elans. Because they are self-sufficient it makes managing an army much easier IMHO.
kronos451 02-21-07, 10:41 AM	lol sorry I forgot about my first post. I was thinking most if not all of my soldiers would more than likly be humans. Just a Q? If you had t build a Psionic army, How would you list them. What build would you use as your General. (Its very hard to try and translate from my brain to my fingers) It also says (in bold print above) What build would you use as your general? If I remember correctly the privious posters and my self figured that one out Seer 20/ thrallherd 10/ psion Uncarnate 10/ war mind 10. Now Im asking if an ardent would make a good second in command? give him the leadership feat/ or thrallherd PrC and my army will grow much larger.
kronos451 02-22-07, 11:08 AM	:bump:
Lyric 02-22-07, 05:22 PM	why in the world would you take Warmind in epic levels?? Most of his abilities are replicatable with a few feats, or a psionic power. His powers he learns have a really low manifester level with only 10 levels in the build, and they don't mix well with uncarnate, though they could be minorly handy when transformed back into physical form for one minute/day. Did you take those levels pre-epic? even if you did, I highly doubt that was worth it, even with the full bab progression.
Syrkres 02-23-07, 04:50 PM	Well, just to put my opinion in. 1-10th Fighter (BAB, Feats - Weapon Specialization, etc) 11-20th Some Fighter base PrC - (Good BAB, saves, powers, etc) 21-30th Erudite (Learn all the powers you want) 31-40th ThrallHeard (This will give you followers and continue your Psionic powers). 41-54 what ever you want.... So at 54th level you will be at least a 20th level manifestor and a 20th level fighter. During your advancement you should put all stat advanment into INT probably. So you will have lots of powers as YOU CAN Learn any power from any creature you come across, and if you can't mentally take him over you can probably physically beat him to a pulp, especially since you can probably buff yourself up with your powers. Your Thralls will give you a very good supporting cast of troops. If you take the Epic Thrallheard (that was developed on the boards) you can even have more Thralls. Your powers are not limited to a specific school like a Psion so you are MUCH more powerful. It would be a very strong cross-class build. The only thing I would think about changing is the second half of the fighter progression to Druid so you can get shapechanging in there. That would give you Wildshape (Large) 3/day with the ability to cast Druid Spells (good healing) at a cost of 3 BAB, but would increase your Will saves a lot and your Fort Saves by 1. You would still have bad Reflex saves.
Mooncalf 02-26-07, 07:53 PM	You're level 54. What, exactly, do you need an army for, really? Seriously, at that power level you will have close to no use for a bunch of piddly low-level characters. They're at best a cosmetic feature. You should be able to deal with whatever might offer them a challenge by simply glaring at it. You wanna rule the world? Ingratiate yourself into the high society of the local kingdom and dominate the leaders. Teleport to neighbouring kingdom and repeat. Keep doing it until everyone dances to your tune. Laugh manically. Besides, rule the world? Why would you want to waste your time with that at your level? Shouldn't you be unseating gods and sinking continents? I hear Lolth's got an ECL of 40; if you're 54, you've been putting off your emergent godhood for too long. This is just my two cents, mind you, but I personally don't see the point of playing the war game at this level. There's no challenge. It might be fun at lower levels, when low-level soldiers have their use, but at level 54...?
mato_hibiki 02-26-07, 09:45 PM	Man, has this thread given me some ideas. Bad, bad, evil, naughty ideas. Really, I must will myself not to use them... Willing, willing, will- ah screw it. Time to take over the planet! A mild suggestion for any epic characters you may use, is to add enough arcane magic user levels to qualify for the Arcane Strike feat. If you know about it, it's deliciously evil. I believe it's in the complete arcane warrior, my bad. And, on a note, using Thrallheard and mindseeding all your minions... When this general confronts the PCs, he must wear all black, dark goggles, and say- "Mister (PC's name) welcome back... We missed you." XD Anyone to get that one get's a free 'Kudos!' from me.
kronos451 02-27-07, 12:12 PM	Man, has this thread given me some ideas. Bad, bad, evil, naughty ideas. Really, I must will myself not to use them... Willing, willing, will- ah screw it. Time to take over the planet! A mild suggestion for any epic characters you may use, is to add enough arcane magic user levels to qualify for the Arcane Strike feat. If you know about it, it's deliciously evil. I believe it's in the complete arcane warrior, my bad. And, on a note, using Thrallheard and mindseeding all your minions... When this general confronts the PCs, he must wear all black, dark goggles, and say- "Mister (PC's name) welcome back... We missed you." XD Anyone to get that one get's a free 'Kudos!' from me. The matrix Revolutions when all the agent smiths were waiting for him in the matrix!! come on Too easy!!!
Kurama Youko 02-27-07, 08:18 PM	removing this post because I didnt see what you meant OP. So sorry didnt realize the scope of level you were talking about.
mato_hibiki 02-28-07, 10:22 AM	Easy? Heck yeah, but then, you're the only one who answered it, and you seemed so excited when you did it too. So here it is, in easy to sig format. Kudos to you, Kronos451. Kudos! :D It's brand new and shiny, so take good care of it. Now, nobody mentioned how evil arcane strike is for a clone army? *Thunder rumbles.* Aw crap, Attack of the Clones. *Flees from Lu-cas the Destroyer.*
kronos451 03-05-07, 09:53 AM	(OOC)Im a huge matrix fan (/OOC) Ok, back on topic. No, Ideas for a second in comand?
kronos451 04-19-07, 11:09 AM	Im beeing selfish i know but :bump:
periscope 04-20-07, 08:02 PM	1) You and I wont get into why I need such a high level character. 2) World domination 3)very large to save paper I want to a lot more than one NPC to a sheet 4)My PC's can use any book that is produced by WotC as long as I get to look through it before anything from it is used 5)we follow the books as close as our understanding alows. one thing that I have house ruled on is Natral AC, I let that stack for my own sanity I have four players that are 10-15 the rest are 18-40 and the younger ones like to wine a lot and thats what I did to get them to shut up. so in stead of keneticist make him a seer 20 /PW 14 / Pyro 10 /and fighter 10 You may want to make it a Fighter 10/PW 14/seer 20/Pyro 10 reason being if you do it this way you gain the more favorable BAB since, once you hit level 21 your BAB does not get better. You get an epic bonus to attack rolls but you dont actually get a higher BAB. This nets you more attacks if you get into melee (Claws of the Beast + Form of Doom+Bite of the Wolf+Psionics Lion Charge+Hustle=WTF!:eek: ) A couple thrallherds might be needed to gain and run the army quickly and efficiently. Also that PRC in XPH thats the warrior one (i dont know the name, its the last prestige class in the book, you have to get some text, Talaric I think) might be good for a Body Guard.
PinkPanther 04-23-07, 12:09 PM	I would'nt lvl just one class at a time it would be shared by all classes example 1 seer 1 2 seer 1/ ftr 1 3 seer 1/ ftr 1/ PW 1 4 seer 2/ ftr 1/ PW 1 so on and so forth till I can take the Pyro prestige class and at full lvl
Rusher 04-23-07, 06:57 PM	psion20(telepath)/Thrallherd 10/Wilder20 or epic thrall/psion (does it really matter?) I would suggest that your general would be better served being a telepath since he will have the social skills needed to lead and make alliances with enemy nations etc... Throw in the Wilder's charisma and you have an evil overlord that inspires through fear AND fanaticism. Surging on your big powers is fun for everyone isn't it? Charisma to saves is good too. Have your key henchman as a Seer. You don't want to spend your own valuable time/power points remote viewing/metafaculty/hypercog'g your enemies? Of course not! Hypercognition to find out where your enemies hail from, and who their loved ones are, is a great hobby for your minions. It is beneath a god however. Consider using metaconcert to subvert PC/heads of state via domination. Really with a character this level and resources if the lvl 20th PC's become known foes they are just toast right?
kronos451 04-25-07, 10:02 AM	If Im not going to use Seer as my general I'd use ardent. now Id like to work on his second in comand
kronos451 05-02-07, 10:24 AM	:bump: slowly attempts to breath life back into thread.
ninja1 05-03-07, 12:32 PM	Hmmm, I'm looking at making a Thrallherd-type character for a Gestalt game and I thought about using the Thralls as Bodyguards during actual combat. I was looking at the Miniatures Handbook, and found the Tactical Soldier PrC. I also like the Shieldmate and Improved Shieldmate feats. Through those options you can have Thralls that can grant you shield bonuses to AC freeing you up to use a two-handed melee or ranged weapon, dodge bonuses to AC just by being near them, and they have a special ability that allows them to take the damage you would have normally received 3x per day.... For your application I'd still try to fit in enough psionic levels so that you can use them to access all the powers you would want to Pyschic Reformation / Psychic Churgury into yourself.