Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lycanthromancer 04-29-07, 09:58 PM	Discuss. (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=28&func=showcat&catid=9)
Eikre 04-30-07, 12:28 AM	Ah, hell, menus? This is going to take a while to read.
Boondoggle 04-30-07, 01:22 AM	Don't be lazy: post the thing here.
munin 04-30-07, 09:28 AM	Don't be lazy: post the thing here. He didn't want to crash Wizards' servers. The single power description is longer than the entire Complete Psionic and has an information density capable of generating a singularity. : ) I don't know where to start with comments -- I do have many. This thing has over a hundred paragraphs which each might need comments. Lycanthromancer, how about posting the power description on the d20wiki, so folks can mark it up with comments?
Racinante 04-30-07, 10:40 AM	Too long, too complicated, too unwieldy, and too derivative.
Boondoggle 04-30-07, 12:38 PM	He didn't want to crash Wizards' servers. The single power description is longer than the entire Complete Psionic and has an information density capable of generating a singularity. : ) I don't know where to start with comments -- I do have many. This thing has over a hundred paragraphs which each might need comments. Lycanthromancer, how about posting the power description on the d20wiki, so folks can mark it up with comments? Ever heard of the principle: KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid), or, perhaps, Occam's Razor? If the power is longer than a book, it's not usable.
Khatoblepas 04-30-07, 01:12 PM	I.. don't like it. It's complicated, as user-friendly as 1e lookup tables, and is incredibly... um.. I wouldn't want to take this power simply because of the book keeping. I know that Metamorphosis is already book-keeping ish, but this is ridiculous. Also: You have to spend XP to manifest this power? What?! That's 1000xp for making this power 1hour/level. Or 1100xp for ONE menu E ability. The abilities really aren't good enough to be burning experience points on. =( It's not broken anymore. It's just so.... underwhelming for how complicated it is.
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 01:44 PM	Also: You have to spend XP to manifest this power? What?! That's 1000xp for making this power 1hour/level. Or 1100xp for ONE menu E ability. The abilities really aren't good enough to be burning experience points on. =(You don't have to spend XP, but you can to gain more abilities. I would agree that this seems overly complicated and perhaps underwhelming, however. It gives out a lot of options, but many of them seem relatively weak compared to the investment required. Plus, there are all of two ways to increase ability scores, which are temporary at that. Something in the vein of Animal Affinity (but instead granting insight/competence bonuses) might be appropriate.
ArcTan 04-30-07, 02:14 PM	No. No, no, no. Rich Burlew's well-intentioned polymorph fix was bad enough; this takes that and multiplies it by ten. Powers or spells that take longer to read than the average base class or PrC description are simply *unusable*. I'm sorry.
Fafnir 04-30-07, 04:02 PM	No. No, no, no. Rich Burlew's well-intentioned polymorph fix was bad enough; this takes that and multiplies it by ten. Powers or spells that take longer to read than the average base class or PrC description are simply *unusable*. I'm sorry. I'm sure you put a lot of effort into it, but I'm afraid he's right. I'd rather go with the original one and trust my DM's judgement.
Lycanthromancer 04-30-07, 06:48 PM	That was the only way I could think of to keep Metamorphosis from being broken (as it currently has the potential to be). It also irons out a lot of rules-problems (such as completely screwing over people with templates and racial abilities). I figured tossing out limited menu choices with an unlimited number of superficial changes would be far better than unlimited choices (many of which are utterly broken in the hands of a player). Would it help if I condensed similar menu abilities into "Offensive," "Defensive" and "Miscellaneous" menus, so that abilities such as Adaptation are all together, with stronger versions as a part of the weaker version entries? Most of the abilities ARE simply stronger versions of other abilities. I think, in total, there are only a couple-dozen unique abilities altogether, after all. Condensing down might make it easier to read. Also, I made most of the menu abilities less powerful than I could have. After all, the old version and the new version both can potentially replace a few dozen existing powers. If you want to fly, you can take this version, or you can take Psionic Fly (which is much better) if you like. I went for less powerful, but more versatile. Also, I've doodled-up a feat that allows you to gain ability score improvements at a 1-to-1 augmentation rate (1 Str, Dex, or Con for 1 pp). Another feat increases this to a 2-to-1 augmentation rate (which I may scrap). Otherwise, if nobody likes what I did, how would YOU suggest I make a version of Metamorphosis that is balanced? Hmm. Perhaps I could alter this to make a manifesting base-class. Or a PrC. Hmm.
NoldorForce 04-30-07, 07:38 PM	Hmm. Perhaps I could alter this to make a manifesting base-class. Or a PrC. Hmm.That might be better, considering how complicated this is. Alternatively...some of the ability trees grant scaling bonuses depending on which tier you get stuff from. Instead of making tiers of effects, organizing things by trees of similar effects would be more appropriate. It would still be long, but more intuitive and easier to read considering the relative lack of backtracking for comparisons. In fact, you could probably list those that grant bonuses as indefinitely scaling effects, in the vein of the various other psionic buffs that do the same thing. The wording on the augments is confusing at times. More specifically, it's the discussion on increasing the duration and changing your size. Are these separate augments, or do their effects depend on spending PP in other ways (as with the save DC of Psionic Charm)?
Lycanthromancer 04-30-07, 07:46 PM	Well, size increases depend on how many power points you spend overall (much like a scaling DC is for some powers - if you spend this number of power points when augmenting Metamorphosis, you can increase or decrease your size category). Duration is a separate augment. Perhaps I should clarify things a bit. -Edited- Check the augments again.
munin 05-01-07, 10:14 AM	Well, size increases depend on how many power points you spend overall... The way the text is worded: "...allows you to increase or decrease your size ... you can alter your size category..." sounds like you can only assume the form of creatures your own size and then apply a compression/expansion effect to that. Was it your intention that this paragraph should allow you to assume the form of creatures with a different size category than your own?
NoldorForce 05-01-07, 07:34 PM	One of the things I've found about the Full Damage Against Objects line is that it's generally useless. Melee attacks do not by default suffer a damage halving against objects; ranged weapons and certain energy effects do, however. Considering that, I'm changing it slightly in my modification of Metamorphosis. All of the mechanics and ability choices will still effectively be there, but I'm streamlining things to make them less messy. This generally means that many of the abilities that are identical except for power level will be rolled into one ability, having the stronger forms of the ability as augmentations of the least potent form. If nothing else, the power will at least be easier to analyze.
Lycanthromancer 05-02-07, 05:20 PM	I've already done that, and it didn't seem that much better, really. I'll get it up within a day or so, and I'll toss it out for you to peruse. However, I don't have the internet at the moment, so I can't Wikki it, and I don't have my copy of Metamorphosis right now, so I can't post it immediately. You might be interested in knowing that after being condensed, the number of menu abilities available are 59 (object and creature), and most of the higher-level abilities are gone.
Lycanthromancer 05-03-07, 02:27 PM	The (new) revamp is here (http://dreamscarredpress.com/main/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=28&func=view&catid=9&id=1270#1270).
kyeudo 05-03-07, 06:01 PM	Interesting Idea, but that power needs a book and a spreadsheet all by itself to understand. Then again, current Metamorphosis takes a book, a spreadsheet, and a subsection of the forum to understand. All in all, I like Lycan's better.
NoldorForce 05-03-07, 11:00 PM	That's easier to look at and analyze. It's still long, but that's not as much of a problem for me. I've read through the Silmarillion, after all. :P (I agree with kyeudo that the old line of polymorphing effects actually required more reading in an implicit manner.) Considering the new text on the size-increase effect, the power got a bit of a boost. This is because the current version added a mention of page 291 of the Monster Manual...the one with the table on Changing Statistics by Size. So a size increase or decrease may be quite useful. It preempts Giant Size/Minute Form to a certain extent, but no one cares that much about Wu Jen. ;) Other stuff: -Natural Attack allows you to increase a natural weapon in effective size. It would probably be appropriate to make a note that this effect can only be used once per natural weapon, for otherwise you might see exponential (yes, TS, it really is exponential) damage scaling in the hands of an unscrupulous player. -Prehensile Limb needs a way to grant the ability to use multiple extra limbs at once, either through an augment or a "you can take this multiple times" clause. -The Rock Throwing ability could probably be summed up more easily with a properly worded augment. In fact, I had made an unlimited-scaling augment with an implicit cap:Augment: For every three additional power points (or two for the first increment) you spend, the range increment for the rocks you hurl increases by 30 ft., and the base damage with them increases by one size. You may only gain the benefit of one such increase per size category you are above Medium. -Spine Attack is inconsistent in that the base text states that damage is taken if the spines are removed in any way other than a successful Heal check; the augments increase the damage for a failed Heal check. What about those people who don't care about making Heal checks? -Why does Tremorsense not have an augment but instead have an ability to take it multiple times? -As Engulf can theoretically affect multiple targets at once, a static 50% chance to hit the wrong creature seems inappropriate. Rather, perhaps that should be "an equal chance of targeting you or the creature(s) within you". -Why does Metatoxin have to be so wonky? Nonlethal Constitution damage, ability damage that isn't actually ability damage on multiple counts, no stacking unless you pay extra for it, a short duration, etc. What's so wrong with regular poison that deals relatively small amounts of ability damage? -Morphic Resonance is fine, but you'll need to find some way to go around the OGL (in a web enhancement, public notice on the book's page, etc.) to account for living constructs and deathless. -Rake should be renamed, considering that there's a monster ability of the same name (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#rake) that works differently. Alternatively, you may wish to tweak the ability to conform to the standard version. -Why does Webbing require both a failed save and a ranged touch attack to connect? Most magical effects that work at range require one or the other, not both. Touch-range effects require both, but they have the consolatory effect of Holding the Charge - unlike with ranged effects, you can try again with no resource expenditure if you fail. Additionally, changing the first augment to simply state that it doubles the range increment and maximum range should shorten things. No DC for Escape Artist or bursting is specified. -Why are you flat-footed after using Attach? Dire weasels aren't. (This implies a loss of attacks, seemingly contradicting other text that follows it.) -Perhaps an exception on Corrosion would be in order? Otherwise, following the RAW, you're liable to destroy your own armor if you're wearing a suit thereof. -As with Webbing, Adhesive requires a Strength check but mentions no DC. -Fast Healing is inappropriately named considering that there is another ability of the same name that operates differently. Swift Healing sounds reasonable. I've noticed other abilities that have the same names as various special abilities, but the others seem to consistently follow the stock WotC abilities. Fast Healing and Rake were the exceptions. -This version of Objective Resilience is shorter but still carries the same effect:Objective Resilience: You gain 1 hit point per manifester level you have per size category you are above Tiny. Hit points gained in this way (even from augmentation) are treated like the hit points gained through a temporary increase in Constitution. For instance, if you are a 4th-level manifester, and emulate a Medium object, you gain 8 hit points. Despite these being actual hit points, they dissipate at the end of the power’s duration. Augment: For every 3 additional power points you spend on this menu ability, you gain an additional hit point per manifester level you have, per size category you are above Tiny.First, there's no need to call them temporary hit points if you're not treating them that way; the line on treating them similar to hit points gained through Constitution is mostly sufficient. Secondly, temporary hit points from different sources stack, so that particular line was unnecessary regardless of the other text. Thirdly, "per size category above Tiny you are" seemed to be a bit mangled. That's all the issues I have for now. Though that's a lot of text, and thus the previous sentence is misleading. With the ability to apply moderate ability score buffs through size increases or decreases, this seems like a viable power. One of the good things about the augmenting is that it allows for an ability to be improved at a rate appropriate to it; some things needed to scale more quickly then at a rate of 3 PP per increase.
Lycanthromancer 05-04-07, 05:16 PM	Thank you for the very insightful comments. I shall make those particular changes forthwith. :D I suppose having support can make all the difference, else I would have completely missed those. Say, NoldorForce, would you like to see what I'm doing on the XPH revamp? Preferably when I'm finished, but still...
Lycanthromancer 05-05-07, 04:39 PM	The DCs are already handled by the portion of the metamorphosis power that says that DCs are the same as that of metamorphosis, which increases at a rate of 4pp of augmentation per +1 to DC. Other than that, I have the rest of the fixes ready (which I don't have with me...again...). I'll get them up pretty soon.
Lycanthromancer 05-07-07, 03:10 PM	Done.Natural Attack: You gain a single natural (melee) attack with which you are proficient. This may be a bite, tentacle, slam, claw, sting, gore, tail slap, or armor spikes (use the damage rating of a claw attack), as appropriate to the form you are using (though some creatures, such as dragons, have other attacks; if so, substitute the closest of the aforementioned attack forms for the new attack). You can only gain natural attacks according to the physiology of the form you are using, so a creature without a mouth, for example, could not have a bite attack. You can only use limbs that the form you are using has. The exception to this is for forms that are usually amorphous (such as oozes), in which you can grow a bashing pseudopod for slam or bite attacks. When you choose this menu option, you designate a single natural weapon or multiple identical natural weapons (such as a pair of claws) as your primary natural attack. All others are considered secondary. The reach of your attacks depends upon your size. You can gain this menu ability multiple times and its effects stack. Each time you take this option, you either receive a new natural attack, or one of your existing natural weapons counts as one size category larger for damage purposes (you can gain the latter effects only once natural weapon). See the tables on pgs 296 and 314 of the Monster Manual for information on natural attacks based on size. Augment: For every 3 additional power points you spend on this augment, you can gain 4 additional natural attacks. Prehensile Limb: You gain fine motor control over one of the superficial limbs of your new form (for a form that has more limbs than your standard one), giving you the ability to make skill checks and use manufactured weapons with that limb (but not natural attacks, unless you use the appropriate menu ability). This can be a claw, tail, tongue, and so on. You can use the new limb to make additional multi-weapon attacks (treat as an off-hand for two-weapon fighting, but at a cumulative -1 penalty to all attacks for the round for each additional hand used), and you can wield multiple 2-handed weapons, a 2-handed weapon and a shield, and so on. You also gain a +1 bonus to any skill checks requiring fine motor control, such as Open Lock checks, as well as to grapple checks, for every pair of additional limbs you improve. You can take this option multiple times. Each time you do, an additional limb you have can be affected by this menu ability. Rock Throwing: If you are Small size or larger, you can hurl rocks, fallen masonry, and so on that have a range increment of 80 ft, and deal 1d8 points of damage + your Str modifier with no penalties to your attack roll. Throwing a rock is a standard action. Augment: For every 3 additional power points you spend on this augment (or 2 for the first increment), the range increment for the rocks you hurl increases by 30 ft, and the base damage with them increases to the next size category: 2d6 (Large), 2d8 (Huge), 3d6 (Gargantuan), 4d6 (Colossal).You may only gain the benefits of this augment up to your actual size category. Spine Attack: You grow a dense coat of bristling spines that you can fire at a distant foe as a swift action (range increment 20 ft, maximum range 100 ft). If they hit (treat as a primary natural weapon), they deal 1 point of damage + 1 point per 5 manifester levels, and the stricken foe must succeed on a Reflex save or have the quills break off in its flesh. Lodged quills impose a -1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks. Quills can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check; otherwise, removing the quills deal an extra 1d4 points of damage (they also deal this damage if not removed by the time metamorphosis expires). Unlike with most body parts that are separated from you during metamorphosis’ duration, quills remain lodged in the target’s flesh until they are removed or until the power ends. Augment: 1. If you spend 2 additional power points on this menu ability, your spines deal 1 point of damage + 1 point per 3 manifester levels, impose a -2 penalty to attacks, saves, and checks, and deal 1d6 points of damage if a Heal check is not made successfully. 2. If you spend 4 additional power points on this menu ability, your spines deal 1 point of damage + 1 point per 2 manifester levels, impose a -3 penalty to attacks, saves, and checks, and deal 1d8 points of damage if a Heal check is not made successfully. 3. If you spend 6 additional power points on this menu ability, your spines deal 1 point of damage + 1 point per manifester level, impose a -4 penalty to attacks, saves, and checks, and deal 2d6 points of damage if a Heal check is not made successfully. Tremorsense: You gain the tremorsense special quality out to 30 ft. You are sensitive to vibrations in the ground, and can automatically pinpoint the location of anything that is in contact with the ground (or anything tightly anchored to it, such as a wall). If you are in a liquid environment, you can also sense the location of creatures that are also moving through the fluid medium. Augment: For every additional power point you spend on this menu ability, you can increase its range by 10 ft. Engulf: You must also have the Amorphous special quality in order to take this menu option. You can make an engulfing attack against creatures at least one size category smaller than you on a successful grapple check. The creatures remains grappled, and cannot escape the grapple unless they succeed in making two checks in a row that would otherwise allow it to escape the grapple. You are not considered grappled, but you are considered entangled so long as the creature is within your body. Any creature that targets either you or the creatures within you, with attacks, spells, spell-like abilities, and so on, has an equal chance of hitting any one of you. You both also automatically take damage from any special qualities the other might have, such as the Energy Burn menu ability. You automatically take damage from any attacks they make against you, however, even on a natural roll of 1 (this vulnerability does not apply to the engulfed creature). You can hold a maximum of 1 creature of one size category smaller than you, 2 creatures two size categories smaller than you, 4 creatures three size categories smaller than you, and so on. You can eject any given creature from your body as a free action during your turn. Creatures that you eject or that are within your body when the metamorphosis power ends appear in a space adjacent to yours. Augment: If you spend 3 additional power points on this menu ability, you need not grapple a creature in order to engulf it. You can attempt to engulf a creature at least one size category smaller than you as a standard action (Reflex negates). If you have the Trample special quality, you can attempt to mow down creatures you trample, engulfing them on a successful trample instead of dealing damage. Metatoxin: Choose one of your natural attacks to poison, and one type of ability score (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, or Cha). Once per round, you can deal 1 point of damage to that ability score if you damage your target and it fails a Fortitude save (for physical scores) or a Will save (for mental scores). Otherwise, the effect fails. This damage can be cured in any way that normal ability damage can be cured, though it can also be dispelled as if it were a psionic effect. If you take this option more than once, it affects another natural attack, and can affect any single ability score, though you cannot add it to an attack that is already affected by this ability. Ability damage immediately goes away when the metamorphosis power ends, and cannot reduce any ability score below 1. Augment: 1. If you spend 3 additional power points on this menu ability, the damage increases to 1d4. If you spend 5 additional power points instead, the penalty increases to 1d6+1. 2. If you spend 4 additional power points on this menu ability, the penalty your target takes on a failed save is halved, rather than negated (minimum 1). Morphic Resonance: You can assume one of the following creature types, temporarily replacing your actual type with your chosen type, regardless of the form you take: Animal, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid. You are treated as that type for the purposes of powers, spells, and effects. Your form is altered somewhat to reflect this; for example, if you take a humanoid form with animal as your type, you look feral and wild, and you gain the suggestion of fur, feathers, or scales, though you are recognizably humanoid. You do not gain any weapon or armor proficiencies from assuming the new type, but you do get all other applicable immunities and special qualities (though since you are not mindless, you do not gain this special quality regardless of your form or type). Opponents may make the appropriate Knowledge checks to determine your actual type and any subtypes you may assume; the DC for this check equals the DC of metamorphosis + the modifiers you have on your Disguise skill. If you have some, but not all, of the qualities of your own type (such as through a template or class, or if you are elan), and choose that type for your own, you gain all of the standard qualities of that type. If you have no Constitution score, you gain a Con score of 10 for the duration of metamorphosis. Augment: If you spend 3 additional power points on this menu ability, you can also assume the following types: Aberration, Magical Beast, Ooze (blind, but with blindsight 30 ft, and does not deal acid damage), Plant, or Vermin. You also gain any subtype of your choice, except for Aquatic, Chaotic, Cold, Evil, Extraplanar, Fire, Good, Lawful, Incorporeal, and Swarm. If you spend an additional 3 power points on top of this, you can also assume one of the following types: Construct, Dragon, Elemental, Outsider, or Undead. If you choose the Construct or Undead types, you temporarily lose your Con score, though your HD temporarily change to d10 (for Constructs) or d12 (for Undead), which means that you reroll your hit points to suit your new form. The hit point total you lose returns once you no longer have that type, though any damage you have taken remains in effect. You also gain any one of the following subtypes: Chaotic, Cold, Evil, Fire, Good, or Lawful. If you choose an alignment subtype, it overrides your actual alignment, though detect alignment spells and similar register a faint aura of your original alignment. If you spend an additional 3 power points on top of this, you can take on as many subtypes as you wish, so long as they are not diametrically opposed. You cannot, for instance, take the Fire and Cold subtypes, or the Good and Evil subtypes simultaneously. Raking Frenzy: You can attack twice instead of once while grappling a foe with your primary natural weapon(s). These attacks are made at your full base attack bonus, and don’t suffer the normal -4 penalty for attacking during a grapple. You cannot rake on a turn in which you begin a grapple. Webbing: You can throw a sticky web once every 1d4 rounds. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a range increment of 10 ft, and a maximum range of 50 ft, and is effective against targets your size or smaller. The web anchors ground-bound targets in place, allowing no movement. Flying and swimming creatures are merely entangled. The webbing melts away within 1 minute. An entangled creature can escape with an Escape Artist check, or they can burst the web with a Strength check (this check is made with a -4 penalty). The web has 2 hit points + 1 hit point per manifester level, hardness 0, and takes double damage from fire. This webbing dissolves at the end of the metamorphosis power. Augment: 1. If you spend 2 additional power points on this menu ability, you double its range increment and maximum range. 2. For every 2 additional power points you spend on this menu ability, you can target creatures one size category larger, and the web’s hit points increase by 1 hp per manifester level. 3. If you spend 4 additional power points, you can create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 30 ft square, which you can spin instead of making a webbing attack. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web, or they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing receive a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5 ft section has the same hardness and hit points as a single shot of webbing. You can move freely over any webbing that you spin yourself. Attach: If you have a bite attack and successfully hit an opponent with it, you can latch onto its body with your jaws. You lose your Dexterity bonus to AC, but you automatically deal bite damage once per round until you release your opponent or are removed. You can still make attacks against the creature you are attached to, and you can be struck with weapons or grappled without penalty. In order to be forcefully removed through grappling, an opponent (not necessarily the one you are attached to) must achieve a pin against you during a grapple attempt. Corrosion: Choose one of your natural attacks, natural limbs, or a limb that you have as the beneficiary of the Prehensile Limb ability. This body part exudes a thick, gummy substance that corrodes metal or crystalline objects on a successful touch attack. The substance can destroy up to a 5 ft cube instantly, causing it to corrode and fall to pieces, becoming useless immediately. Magic and psionic armor and weapons and other items made of metal or crystal must succeed on a Reflex save or be dissolved. Weapons that deal damage to you corrode immediately when exposed to your ichorous blood on a failed Reflex save. Your own equipment, wood, stone, and other nonmetal, noncrystalline substances are unaffected. If you use this ability against a creature made of the appropriate materials, treat it as though affected by the rusting grasp spell (caster level = your manifester level). Swift Healing: You gain a special form of the fast healing special quality for 1 round per manifester level upon manifesting Metamorphosis, so long as you spend actions rebuilding your damaged body. As a swift action, you can heal 2 hit points per 3 manifester levels. As a move action, you can heal 3 hit points per 3 manifester levels. As a standard action, you can heal 4 hit points per 3 manifester levels. As a full-round action, you can heal 5 hit points per 3 manifester levels. This ability does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow a creature to regrow or reattach severed body parts. Objective Resilience: You gain 1 hit point per manifester level you have per size category you are above Tiny. Hit points gained in this way are treated like the hit points gained through a temporary increase in Constitution. For instance, if you are a 4th-level manifester, and emulate a Medium object, you gain 8 hit points. Despite these being actual hit points, they dissipate at the end of the power’s duration. Augment: For every 3 additional power points you spend on this menu ability, you gain an additional hit point per manifester level you have, per size category you are above Tiny.
Lycanthromancer 05-11-07, 02:58 PM	Is that better, or no?
ArcTan 05-11-07, 05:07 PM	Man, the fact that you have to go to this level of complexity to balance polymorph/metamorphosis only confirms my initial urge to simply ban that kind of magic altogether.