Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sir Elton 04-20-05, 11:17 AM	Starting a new thread might be a good idea. So, with Bacris' permission, I posting everything in his first post with this first post about this thread. I advise everyone starting out with psionics to go to this first post and check it out. Besides, whether you are starting out with psionics or an old hand who had a game so terrible that you blamed the concept rather than your players, the XPH is balanced towards the rest of the D&D game. ======================================== === It seems that at least once a week a new thread crops up about something in the XPH being overpowered. Since it has been my personal experience across two campaigns that it is actually very well balanced, I figured I would try to disprove some of these myths on an item by item basis. Feel free to add some or bring up some issues. Note: I would first like to state that Psionics as a system is based upon the premise set down in the Dungeon Master's Guide that the party will face, on average, 3-4 encounters per day of equal challenge rating to the average party level. Further, Psions are not Wizards. Just as Divine magic can do things Arcane magic cannot, Psionics can do things neither of the others can, and vice versa. As with any system, there are areas that need improvement, others that are inferior, and some that simply need clarification. Psionics is by no means perfect, but if you take into account the way the system is intended to run, it has been, in most psionic players' experience, very balanced. How powerful did people think Warlocks were when they first came out? Until somebody actually played it or they read more about it, they were just stuck on the unlimited SLAs per day. It's like that with Psionics. They see scaling DCs, flexible use of "spell slots", energy changes on the fly, etc. and they stick on what they perceive as broken without actually testing that out. That, or they play to a Psionic's strength, one encounter per day, and claim it is broken. How broken would a fighter or warlock be if a party had 20 encounters per day? http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33173.jpg Myths: Myth 1: Psionic characters can do too much damage with one power Answer: The single most important rule in the Expanded Psionics Handbook is that you cannot spend more power points on a power than you have manifester levels in the class the power belongs to. This is absolutely essential to understand. What this means is that a 9th level psion can only spend 9 power points on any one manifestation. There are two, and only two, exceptions to this rule: the Overchannel feat, which causes damage to the Psion, and the Wilder's Wild Surge, which can stun the Wilder and drain more power points than the power was augmented by. Overchannel is discussed in Myth 22. More than this limit, Psionic characters have to pay for every extra point of damage they do. Unlike Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids and Clerics, the Psionic powers do not freely scale in damage. A 10th level psion manifesting the Psionic equivalent of Fireball does not do 10d6 damage as a 10th level wizard does, he does 5d6, unless he pays an extra 5 power points, effectively manifesting that power twice. This type of augmentation is what keeps psionics from being overpowered, as the power point reserve held by manifesting class is finite and, for some classes, extremely limited. Myth 2: Psionic powers are overpowered compared to the magic versions http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/roe_gallery/88219.jpg Answer: The vast majority of Psionic versions of magic spells are identical. Those spells that required monetary items / components instead take a very, very long time to manifest (Identify) or instead cost XP(Greater Metamorphosis). The other powers that are not direct Psionic versions of spells typically give flexibility to the Psionic characters due to their limited options to choose from. Further, augmented powers count as essentially higher powers due to how much the Psionic character is paying to manifest them. It should be noted that augmented powers always cost the base power level, not the level at which a normal power would cost that augmented cost. For example, Energy Ray, a 1st level power, augmented for 8 power points for a final cost of 9 power points, is still a first level power in terms of PR and Globe of Invulnerability (if you use transparency). Myth 3: Psychic Warrior feats are too powerful Answer: The majority of combat-enhancing Psionic feats require the expenditure of Psionic Focus, something the majority of characters will only have one of. It is important to understand that Psionic Focus requires a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity to gain and can only power one feat per focus. Further, to fully utilize these feats, the character must take another feat, Psionic Meditation, to regain their focus in a timely manner, otherwise they are useless for a full round while they refocus. A feat-intensive Psychic Warrior, such as one who utilizes Deep Impact + Greater Psionic Weapon each round must have all of the following feats in order to work: Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation For a total of six feats - and that character only gets to make one attack per round and has to use 3 power points to Hustle and provokes two attacks of opportunity in the process and can only take a five foot step. And he can't even benefit from the extra attack granted by Haste or Haste-like effects. Meanwhile, a non-psionic character with Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Dervish levels or similar, can make 5+ attacks per round and take a 5' step without provoking attacks of opportunity or using power points, and without needing extra feats aside from prestige class and high-tier feat prerequisites.. Myth 4: Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter Answer: It is widely accepted that the fighter as a base class is underpowered after levels 4-6, and possibly before that. Arguing that another class is too strong based upon a widely-accepted weak class is not a valid comparison, for a few reasons: The Psychic Warrior has fewer bonus feats, a lower BAB, very limited powers / power points, and a lower hit dice than the fighter, making the fighter an easier class to use to progress into a Prestige Class. In a straight comparison, a 20th level fighter versus a 20th level Psychic Warrior, the PsyWar is going to come out ahead, but I doubt most fighter characters are going to stay straight fighter, instead opting for prestige classes that grant other benefits. Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33551.jpg Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary. Energy Missile's power of multiple targets is partly balanced by having no two of the targets farther than 15' apart. Lumping enemies together like that opens up the possibility of other powers / spells such as Fireball, Flamestrike. Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. If you do either of these, keep in mind that the power Concussion Blast scales at 1d6 per 2pp and has no save, and can target multiple opponents with augmentation without dividing the damage. For further comparison of usage, if enemies are not bunched up, meaning you can get maybe 2-3 enemies at most with the power, it might actually be better to focus on one and use an Energy Ray - a level 1 general power - which has no save, but requires a touch attack. This means that enemies with Evasion / Improved Evasion / good saving throws are more likely going to take half damage from Energy Missile, halving its effectiveness, while on Energy Ray, with a ranged touch attack, they take full. The downside to the Ray is needing to make the touch attack, or wasting the power points. Some feel, and justifiably so, that 1/2 is better than nothing. But, in the case of Improved Evasion, the best you can hope for is half (unless using cold - as you can see, the logistics of taking all the powers and permutations is pretty intense). The save DC on Energy Missile has been widely contested, but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end. If you are uncomfortable with Energy Missile's save progression, modify it to 1:2 as the normal energy powers progress. An official errata changing the save DC to 1:2 is expected by many, viewed as not terribly unlikely by more, and only argued against by a smaller group. The Energy / Damage portion of this power is explained in Myth6. The targetting powers portion of this power was clarified by the author, Bruce Cordell, in an email response. He stated that the power cannot target attended objects. However, his choice of wording and memory of the game rules left many individuals feeling he was mistaken about game mechanics and, as such, is still up for debate. The spirit of the power as stated by the author, however, is that it can nottarget attended / held objects, and would be a legitimate ruling on those grounds. Myth 6: Energy powers are overpowered Answer: While there are four versions of every energy power, one for cold, fire, electricity and sonic each, the fact is that no matter which version you use, you are still using an energy type, which many creatures become immune to in later levels. While the Psion does have the versatility of 4 options, fire, cold, electricity, and sonic, the two strongest, fire and cold, are also the two most commonly resisted or immune. Electricity is another that is a common immunity, and sonic is balanced by decreasing the damage per die. The option of Force powers tends to halve the damage output of the Energy powers, and comes in much fewer choices. Some argue that the fact that Psionic characters can decide on the fly what energy to use is unbalanced, but the problem with this argument is that the Psionic classes suffers from extreme lack of options. They have very few choices for powers. The Psion only stays slightly ahead of the Sorcerer until later levels, when the Sorcerer has more spells known than the Psion has powers known, and the Wilder has even fewer than that. By giving this flexibility, it keeps the Psion from being a "one trick pony" and making their limited options entirely useless in the wrong situation. The wizard can counter this by preparing new spells (given enough time, granted), but the Psion does not have this option. Myth 7: The Erudite is broken Answer: The Erudite was a class released in Dragon magazine prior to final revision of the XPH. As such, it is not a core or even WotC class and, as such, is to be used at your own risk. The Erudite in and of itself is not a valid argument to use against the balance of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, of which it is not explicitly a part. Myth 8: Metapsionic feats are too powerful, they cost less than metamagic feats http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33180.jpg Answer: Metapsionic feats cost 2 fewer power points than previously, but cost Psionic focus. Psionic focus is something that normally requires a full round action in and of itself to regain and can only be used once per feat pre-epic and is also covered in Myth 3. With yet another feat selected, Psionic Meditation, the manifester can get focus back as a move action and manifest the same round - just like a sorcerer - but has to pay for that in the cost of one of their very, very limited feats. Myth 9: The Metamind is overpowered with Font of Power http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/tn_80456_jpg.jpg Answer: You're kidding, right? Once per day 10 rounds of unlimited power but still restricted to manifester level of power points per manifestation is overpowered? You also lose five manifester levels, which translates into over 150 power points and, if a psion, two bonus feats. You can also never access 9th level powers as a 10th level Metamind or use Expanded Knowledge to access 8th level powers. The Metamind is commonly viewed as one of the weaker Prestige Classes in the XPH. Myth 10: Metamorphosis, Greater is overpowered Answer: Met, Gr is a 9th level Egoist-only power. This may seem like an obvious statement, but it is important to understand that only Egoists or those who paid lots of gp and xp via Psychic Chirurgery, which requires DM intervention anyway, can have access to this power. Further, it costs an XP penalty every time it is manifested and cannot be accessed until 17th level. Myth 11: Schism is overpowered Answer: There are several aspects of Schism that balance its power: 1. Telepath-only: by restricting it to only Telepaths or requiring a 9th level or higher non-Telepath to use a feat, access to this power is limited or costly to a character 2. Manifester level - 6 for manifesting: Powers at -6 Manifester levels will typically not have a high enough saving throw to be useful if using offensive powers, will not do a substantial amount of damage, or are buff/utility-type powers 3. Spellcasting: To cast a spell with the schismed mind, you must have the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats, plus either Eschew Materials feat or a spell that does not require material components. Further, a Sorcerer cannot benefit from Schism at all, as he only gains a standard action, and a Stilled, Silent spell without material components takes a full round to cast. This makeup also requires the manifester, who must be an effective 7th level Psion, also have levels in Wizard and use two feats at the minimum. If the manifester isn't a Telepath, he must be an effective 9th level Psion / Wilder and also have spellcasting levels. 4. Swift actions: The Rules As Written (RAW) do not grant the schismed mind any swift actions. Further, they specifically state that the only action the schismed mind can take is a standard, purely mental action, ruling swift actions out entirely. 5. Regaining Psionic Focus: It is an official ruling until ruled otherwise that, because the Schismed mind cannot normally refocus (as it costs a full round action), they can therefore not refocus even with Psionic Meditation. 6. Limited Power Points: A Psionic character, as stressed above, has an extremely limited amount of power points to draw from. By manifesting this power and then further drawing from the pool to manifest extra powers per round, the Psionic character is burning out at roughly 1.5 the normal rate. In a multiple-encounter per day environment, this character will be nearly worthless in the last encounter if "abusing" this power. Myth 12: Vigor is overpowered Answer: While Vigor has one of the best HP / PP ratios when comparing similar healing-type spells converted into power points, it is offset by the fact that it is a) self only and b) temporary hit points. Temporary hit points do not stack with each other, they overlap. What this means is that unless you manifest a stronger version of Vigor than the temporary HP you have remaining, you gain no benefit, and actually waste PP if you manifest Vigor while still under the effect of a previous manifestation. An example would be having 25 temporary hit points from a 5 pp manifestation of Vigor, then taking 10 points of damage. You would have to manifest at least a 4 pp version of Vigor to gain any benefit, as you still have 15 temporary hit points. With 4 pp, you only gain 5 effective temporary hit points, which is not very efficient. Myth 13: Psychic Reformation is overpowered Answer: Psychic Reformation is one of the most heatedly debated power in the XPH. There are two ways to balance this power if you see it being abused: 1. Make outside sources to purchase the service from unavailable 2. Balance the power if the character takes it themselves Option two can be balanced in a few ways: Make the power cost more xp - 500 xp / level or a scaling xp cost based on the number of times it has been manifested on any one target Make the power take longer to manifest - 1 hour or day instead of 10 min Limit the number of times the power can be manifested on any one target - once per level / five times in the characters life / etc Rule out options - cannot learn or remove Item Creation feats at all [edit]Impose limits on changes - require that changes must be legal at time initially acquired Any one of or the combination of those options above help to balance this power if you, as a DM, feel it is being abused. Myth 14: The Cerebremancer is overpowered http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/tn_80452_jpg.jpg Answer: If you also believe that the Mystic Theurge and Psychic Theurge are overpowered, then you may have an argument. Otherwise, I suggest looking at the Mystic Theurge prestige class which does the same thing for Divine / Arcane that the Cerebremancer does for Arcane / Psionics. One argument against the Cerebremancer is that they have synergy that the other classes don't, since a Psion / Wizard gains multiple benefits from a high intelligence and similarly for a Sorceror / Wilder with Charisma. The important part to note is that at the level a Cerebremancer can be entered, the character is 7th level and only has access to 3rd level spells and powers. Meanwhile, a straight Wizard will have 4th level spells and another bonus feat. The Cerebremancer gives up progression rate and a high caster level for increased flexibility at a lower power. Myth 15: 1st level powers doing 20d6 damage are overpowered Answer: A 1st level power can only do 20d6 damage in the following situations (plus a select few other variants): 20th level manifester paying 20 pp - effectively a 10th level power 15th level manifester utilizing the Empower Power feat and paying 15pp - effectively a 7th level power Empowered 17th level manifester utilizing Overchannel + Talented - effectively a 9th level power 13th level manifester utilizing Overchannel + Talented + Empower Power + Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment and using two foci (5 feats) and possibly utilizing Psionic Meditation to be able to do it more than once every three rounds (6 feats) - effectively a 7th level power Empowered 15th level Wilder Wild Surging - running a 25% chance risk of losing 15 power points. - effectively an 8th level power All of the above are paying for, at the very least, an effective 7th level power with a metapsionic feat tacked on. Psionic powers scale because of the very limited number of powers they can learn. They are not the same effective power level at 20 power points that they are at 1 power point, which is why most have scaling DCs when you augment them. See Myth 2 on why most characters cannot do this sort of thing. Myth 16: Psionics are more powerful than wizards due to their damage powers Answer: While a psion can easily outdamage, on average, a wizard in a single combat due to the way powers are manifested / augmented, the depletion of that psion's power points is so rapid that, in a typical game, the next encounter or the encounter after that, he will be completely drained of power points and useless. The psionic characters were balanced based upon the entry in the Dungeon Master's Guide that parties should have four encounters per day of an equal challenge rating to the average party level, or two encounters per day of a challenge rating two higher than the average party level. In situations where a manifester only has one or two encounters in a day's time, they are going to outdamage the majority of the other characters. However, if that same character has to deal with four or more encounters in a day, or deals with the intended quantity of encounters as set down in the DMG, they are very balanced. If you translate spell slots a wizard gains into power points to manifest an equal level power, you will see that the numbers for the two classes are almost identical, with the Wizard actually slightly favored due to 0th level spells that psions do not gain. This is the basis for the balancing factor of 4 encounters per day. Myth 17: The King of Smack build is overpowered Answer: This build utilizes two expansion books, as well as the Expanded Psionics Handbook. As such, it is not a psionics-only build. Alllowing players access to Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike is the majority of the abuse potential of the King of Smack and, as such, is not a cause for arguing that the XPH, in and of itself, is overpowered. This build also allows the elan access to Rapidstrike, which is a twist of logic and many do not feel is valid due to the nature of monstrous feats. Myth 18: Time Regression is too strong http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80453.jpg Answer: Time Regression is a 9th level power - Nomad only - meaning Psychic Warriors, Wilders, and non-Nomad psions can never access it without DM intervention. Only 17th level and higher Nomads can get it normally. It has a 1000 xp cost and only works for ONE ROUND. Basically, it's a costly last-round redo in case something went horribly fubar and you had a near total-party-kill. Using this power on a regular basis is quickly going to cost you gobs of XP, something most characters would not want to do on a regular basis. Myth 19: Astral Construct is too good for a 1st level power http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33175.jpg Answer: Astral Construct - first and foremost, is Shaper only. All other classes / disciplines must use a feat to access this power. Second, Boost Construct, while nice, is yet another feat a Shaper / Psion must spend of their limited 12 / 13 (if human) feats in their career. The Astral Construct is not all that different from Summon Nature's Ally / Monsters of the same level as the augmented power. You must keep in mind that druids get 9 different Summon Nature's Ally, while the Psion must augment his to get the nicer ones, effectively making a 3 pp Astral Construct equal to Summon Nature's Ally II / Summon Monster II. If you compare apples to apples, Summon Monster V to Astral Construct level 5, you tend to find that, while in some cases, one or the other is better, typically it is not overpoweringly so. Myth 20: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is overpowered Answer: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is Mind-Affecting. This is very, very, very important and usually overlooked. Many, many, many creatures in D&D are immune to mind-affecting effects. Undead, constructs, mindless, innate immunities, buffs, etc. Yes, this power is nice, but it is easily negated by having mindless / immune enemies. Situtationally being very good does not make a power too strong - it means it is situational. Harm type spells, conversely, are Negative Energy - which many, many more creatures are not immune to, making it far more likely to work. Further balancing this power is the fact that the damage dealt is limited to how much damage the manifester themselves is suffering from. A psion / psychic warrior at full health cannot use it, as they have no damage to transfer. As Telepaths tend to not have high number of HP due to d4 hit dice, a 5th level Telepath who manifests this power is probably not going to do the full damage, unless they're near death or higher level. Psychic Warriors, who will have the larger HP pool, but gain this power later in level, are limited in usage of this power by the power point cost and their power point pool. While this is definitely a nice power, and at times can be very devastating, it does have several limiting factors. Myth 21: Elans are overpowered http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cx_gallery/86364.jpg Answer: The Elan racial abilities, at first glance, are quite powerful. However, several things need to be taken into account before deeming them overpowered. First, usage of any of the saving throw / damage negating abilities uses the character's immediate action. Use of an immediate action means the character cannot use another immediate or swift action until after their next turn. So, a character playing an Elan could activate the damage reducing ability and negate 10 hp of damage, but if the next enemy casts a spell on him, he now cannot boost his saving throws - he's already used his one action for that round. Second, the cost of the damage reducing ability is subpar compared to the temporary HP buff of Vigor. A quick Vigor buff will not only save the Elan power points, but grant them better HP usable for more than just a one-shot. Third, unless the character is a psion or wilder, their number of power points is more than likely extremely limited, meaning the number of times per day they can use these abilities can usually be counted on one hand. If the character is a Psion or Wilder, they are then taking away power points used to manifest more efficient powers / offensive powers, taking away from their combat ability. The Elan racial abilities, while nice, are mostly for extreme emergencies than anything else. Use of them on a regular basis will end up with a character who, while hard to kill, won't be able to contribute as much to combat. If you feel that these abilities need to be brought in line, limit the number of power points that can be spent on any of these abilities as 1 / HD or 1 / 2 HD, or something that suits your taste. Myth 22: The Overchannel feat is too strong http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80476.jpg Answer: The Overchannel feat, for those unfamiliar, allows you to boost your effective manifester level by up to 3, thereby letting you spend more power points on powers than would normally be allowed. The downsides to this are that: a) You must spend a feat on Overchannel b) You take damage for using the feat (1d8 for 1 point, 3d8 for 2 points, 5d8 for 3 points) c) The boost is capped at 3 extra manifester levels and no more To avoid taking the damage, you can take yet another feat, Talented, which allows you to avoid the damage - but only up to 3rd level powers - and you must expend psionic focus to do so. What this means is that if you want to Overchannel every round, you need a 3rd feat - Psionic Meditation - to do so, otherwise it's every other round. This boost is offset by the extra power point cost to the already limited power point pool, the need to take anywhere from 1-3 feats out of the 12-13 you get as a (human) psion, and the fact that, for damage-based powers, after 7-8th level, Empower Power is more efficient and costs fewer power points, as well as one-two fewer feats. Myth 23: The Slayer is overpowered http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80455.jpg Answer:No, I don't mean Buffy. There exist two versions of this prestige class, the Illithid Slayer in the XPH and the Slayer in the SRD. The first is balanced by requiring DM intervention to meet the prerequisites, something that can easily be used to keep it out of any game. The second has no RP requirements and is the main focus of this myth. A Psychic Warrior 6 / Slayer 10 / ClassX 4 is not commonly viewed as overpowered. Any hit to the Psychic Warrior's manifester level is huge due to the extremely limited nature that is the Psychic Warrior's manifester chart. However, a Psion 8 / Slayer 10 / Full BAB class 2 has been seen as pretty strong, bordering on the overpowered side. What needs to be taken into account when deciding if this prestige class is acceptable to use would be two things: other sources allowed, who is taking it. If the answer to the second is the Psychic Warrior, I would say it is not going to cause much of a problem. The Psychic Warrior will be somewhat stronger, but not overpoweringly so. Remember, he's also losing out on effectively 2 bonus feats (due to the bonus feats of the Slayer) along with a manifester level. If the answer to the second is a Psion and the Complete series and 3.0 splatbooks are not allowed, I'd rethink allowing the generic SRD Slayer into the game. This class is decidedly stronger than the Core Eldritch Knight and grants far too much for any Psion to be able to enter into it. The psion does lose out on 3 Psion bonus feats (10, 15, 20) and 3 manifester levels, but can get 9th level powers and be considered a strong Gish build. Worst case scenario, stick with the XPH version, as then, unless you have the party hunt an Illithid, they won't be able to get access anyway. Note: It is pointless to compare the Illithid Slayer to the Eldritch Knight because the Eldritch Knight is an impotent example of a prestige class. A PrC that is made obsolete by a 6th level spell (Tenser's Transformation) is a waste of time. http://wizards.com/dnd/images/dmg35_gallery/DMG35_PG187_WEB.jpg Now, divine gishes wouldn't need an Eldritch Knight as clerics get Divine Power as a 4th level spell, and Druids will be making their most powerful attacks as natural attacks, which don't become more numerous with higher BAB. Of course, that didn't stop them from giving the BoED the Fist of Raziel with its d10 HD Myth 24: Split Psionic Ray is too powerful Answer: There are two ways to interpret Split Psionic Ray: 1) You can send the two rays at the same target, thereby doubling the damage or 2) The two targets must be separate, as the feat states two targets and not up to two targets The way to rule on this is if the DM allows the Complete line of expansion books from WotC. Complete Arcane has Split Ray which specifically states it allows you to target the same creature with both rays, thereby making it logical that the psionic version would do the same. If Complete Arcane is not allowed, then it is recommended not to allow it, as it is quite powerful. The power point cost is accurate in that metapsionic feats effectively cost one level less because they require focus expenditure and do not gain free damage scaling. Myth 25: Synchronicity is overpowered Answer: The wording of Synchronicity is actually the problem with this power. Does it grant an extra standard action? By the way it specifies move action + standard action, I'm inclined to say no, and that would be the way to keep it balanced. The overpowered view comes from those who feel that this grants them their normal allotment of moves in a round plus an extra standard action, which the power description does not state is gained. Now, were this power Contingency-ed or Quickened, you would essentially have your first round of full actions (minus your swift) and your second round of actions where you can take the standard anytime you want. This sounds better than it is, since the power never states you get an extra standard action. While this does allow you to change your place on the initiative count based on need, it does not, nor should be thought to, grant you an extra standard action. Even using Anticipatory Strike does not grant an extra standard action. The rules of readying an action, which this power does, clearly state that once you take your action, you have essentially used a new turn's standard action and your initiative count changes. Myth 26: Anticipatory Strike is overpowered Answer: There are a few things about this power that need to be understood. First, immediate actions cannot be taken until your first turn in combat. This is often times overlooked, but you cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed. The basic rules for combat also state that each character starts out flat-footed until they are able to act. So this ability cannot be used on a surprise round or before the character's first turn in initiative. Next, the power does not grant any extra actions, per se, it simply lets you use them earlier. It also uses the swift action up for the next round, eliminating any Quickened-type effects. The next round, you must either spend another 3 pps in order to act or wait until the initiative count recycles. While this is definitely a nice power, if you take into account that it borrows actions, not creates, uses the next swift action, and can't be done before the character would normally be able to do something, it is fairly well balanced. Myth 27: Psions and Sorcerers being alike. http://wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33549.jpg While psions are in essence a spontaneous caster, there are not prepared casters when it comes to psionics, thus the psion is better compared to a wizard. Not counting 0th level spells, a wizard's spells per day converted into the equivalent power point cost he runs pretty much parallel with a psion for casting longevity. A sorcerer however runs well above the per day castings/mainfestings of those two, ending with about 200 equivalent power points (around 90 spell levels) ahead of both the psion and wizard. This is why most people here believe the wizard is a much better comparison than the psion (and if you ever play a psion, you will quickly find out how much power point conservation matters). If you insist on comparing the psion to the sorcerer, then lets get a few points straight before we start. 1) A sorcerer gets around 50% more total spell levels/power points than a psion does, meaning they can last 50% longer spell slinging than a psion, or they can discharge 50% more spells in a combat while lasting the same amount of time. If a player is conserving his casting abilities over the course of the day to remain useful to the party at all times, then a sorcerer will be putting alot more into each fight than a psion will. 2) Spells scale for free, powers don't. A sorcerer gets a scaled effect with his spells based on his caster level, a psion gets scaled effects on his powers based on how many points he spends. No one posting complaints about psionics seems to realize how big a difference this is. Example: Energy Ray vs Scorching Ray. Energy Ray, ML 3, 2nd level power equivalent = 3d6+3 Scorching Ray, CL 3, 2nd level spell = 4d6 Energy Ray, ML 7, 4th level power equivalent = 7d6+7 Sorching Ray, CL 7, 2nd level spell = 8d6 Empowered Scorching Ray, CL 7, 4th level spell equivalent = 12d6 Energy Ray, ML 11, 6th level power equivalent = 11d6+11 Sorching Ray, CL 11, 2nd level spell = 12d6 Twin Spell Scorching Ray, 6th level spell equivalent = 24d6 Energy Ray, ML 20, MORE THAN 10th LEVEL POWER EQUIVALENT = 20d6+20 5 Scorching Rays, CL 20, 10 total spell levels = 60d6 Twin Spell Split Ray Empowered Scorching Ray, CL 20, 10th level spell equivalent = 48d6 The damage comparison isn't the best because it isn't really effective at high levels, but its the most direct. People suggesting a psion should burn 20 pps on a lowly energy ray or crystal shard to do 20d6 is like telling someone to go buy a ferari, then strip the engine and put it in a ford pinto because the pinto will go just as fast. 3) There are more sorc/wizard spells than psion powers. More than twice as many in the PHB alone by the way. There are 162 psion/wilder powers in XPH, compare to 371 sorcerer/wizard spells in the PHB. Even if you count all the disciplines and psychic warriors, and the powers that mimic a bunch of sorc/wizard spells at a time (astral construct, animal affinity, even energy ray as scorching ray and polar ray) you still end up with more spells than powers. Think about this carefully. THERE ARE MORE SORC/WIZ SPELLS IN THE PHB THAN THERE ARE TOTAL POWERS IN THE XPH. There are more 1st - 4th level spells in the PHB than there are psion/wilder powers. That alone means there are at least 200 spell effects that no psion can duplicate with a power. A wizard gets bonus feats and may specialize. Another reason the posters here think wizard is a better comparison than sorc. On a further point, a wizard is not forced to specialize, a psion is. Further all the psion gets for his trouble is access to a subset of powers that otherwise would have existed as regular psion/wilder powers. B. Psions have more diversity than even the diverse SPONTANEOUS spellcaster in the core books, the Sorc . . . The core word is flexibility, since as stated before, there is an impossibly massive difference in the number of spells to chose from and the number of powers to choose from. Sorcerers get more spells per day, this is a marginal difference at best. If you count 0th level spells, the sorc ends up with more known, and everything that was a 0th level power in 3.0 has become a 1st level power in the XPH, meaning a psion spends more to know it and more to manifest it (little useful things like create sound, far hand and detect psionics). 2) A psion can power a lvl 1 spell into a lvl 20 spell. (I have noted this IS easier to protect against than most higher lvl Sorc spells, IN THE CASE THAT, you are currently affected by some form of spell lvl immunity.) He also pays out his ears in power points for it, as I mentioned above, the resources expended to do this are equivalent to firing off 20 first level spells, or a 9th level spell and a 2nd level spell. 3) I see it as the Psion can essentially metamagic any power immediately versus the 1 round it takes the Sorc to due so. Even if I am incorrect & they can't meta them immediately... A wizard doesn't take extra time to metamagic his spells. Although a Psion can metapsionic his spells in one round, he has to expend a psionic focus to do it. A wizard can apply a metamagic feat to a 1st level spell up to three or four times (Maximized, Empowered, and Quicken). A psion can metapsionic a psionic power generally only once because he has to expend his psionic focus. Plus if a psion wants to do it more than once per combat, or use more than one feat at once, it takes at least two other feats to do so, often as many as three (Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Confinement, Psionic Meditation). It still takes him actions to regain focus, too. In effect, if he has NO OTHER FEATS except the metapsi, he has 1/combat instant metamagic, but has to take a full round action PLUS the manifesting time for each subsequent time. If he has more feats, it tends to alter things a bit, since some feats (like Up the Walls) work only when you're focused (so you don't want to metapsi all the time) and others also require you to expend focus (Fell Shot comes to mind for many psions, or possibly Power Penetration if you insist on it). And you have but one focus to spend without a lot of other feats. 4) Isn't empowering a 1st lvl spell by adding power points, in itself, a FREE empowerment feat? Yep, if fireballs never do more than 5d6, or scorching ray more than 3d6, or no greater dispel magic existing. In actuality this is closer to a free heighten spell than a free empower spell. The DCs increase as you spend more points, at the same rate they would for heighten spell, the extra damage is effectively the result of the psion manifesting the power as one of higher level. Don't compare a 20d6 energy ray to a 1st level spell, compare it to a spell(s) that takes equivalent resources to spend (a 9th and a 2nd, an 8th and a 3rd, a 7th and a 4th, etc)
Sir Elton 04-20-05, 11:25 AM	You would rule that the power doesnt work? Or that it just doesnt work on Angels. It just doesn't work on Angels. It's that simple. It is not specified that you get Level Adjustment. So you dont get one. An Fireball does 10d6. If your DM says that it gives you Level Adjustment he could also say that the Fireball does only 6d6. House rules. House rules dont matter on these boards. If house rules don't matter on these boards, then Rule Zero doesn't matter in the D&D game.
Vanamir 04-21-05, 03:14 PM	I don't want to adress every single point especially not those i agree with but a few are IMHO rather flawed in their argumentation. Let me add add that i do not necessarily consider psionics to be overpowered but i do regard them somewhat incompatible or problematic with certain styles of play. Note: I would first like to state that Psionics as a system is based upon the premise set down in the Dungeon Master's Guide that the party will face, on average, 3-4 encounters per day of equal challenge rating to the average party level. Further, Psions are not Wizards. Just as Divine magic can do things Arcane magic cannot, Psionics can do things neither of the others can, and vice versa. As with any system, there are areas that need improvement, others that are inferior, and some that simply need clarification. Psionics is by no means perfect, but if you take into account the way the system is intended to run, it has been, in most psionic players' experience, very balanced. I think that this is a argument is a contradiction in itself. Psionics are balanced if you slavishly adhere to the proposed style of play and it is your fault that they are not if for instance you choose to have only two or three encounter per day? Maybe it is only me but balanced in my definition means that a rule, item, spell, feat or in this case psionics as a whole can be dropped into a game without having to fear that it explodes in your face as soon as you do something creative with it that the designers did not anticipate. Myth 4: Psychic Warrior is stronger than a fighter Answer: It is widely accepted that the fighter as a base class is underpowered after levels 4-6, and possibly before that. Arguing that another class is too strong based upon a widely-accepted weak class is not a valid comparison, for a few reasons: The Psychic Warrior has fewer bonus feats, a lower BAB, very limited powers / power points, and a lower hit dice than the fighter, making the fighter an easier class to use to progress into a Prestige Class. In a straight comparison, a 20th level fighter versus a 20th level Psychic Warrior, the PsyWar is going to come out ahead, but I doubt most fighter characters are going to stay straight fighter, instead opting for prestige classes that grant other benefits. IMHO most PrC have the awful tendency to increase the power level of the game and are therefore more powerful than the standard classes. So i don't think that a fighter/PrC multi-class character should be the yardstick for a PsyWar. The PsyWar is definately one of the more powerful classes in the game and frankly i do not have enough experience with PsyWars in my group to determine if they are really overpowered or not. But i think what many people have problems with is that the PsyWar is a very self-sufficient class and is much less dependant on others. Besides the low reflex and will saves they have no apparent weaknesses and i think that is why so many people are weary of them. Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary. . . . Ok, this will come up some more times but i'll try to make it clear here: No power is ever balanced by the fact that it only appears in a discipline list and not on the general psion list! Balance is about whether a spell is comparably powerful to the other spells a party might have at their disposal at a given level not by the fact that some classes cannot use them. E.g. in 3.0E when you had a standard party (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) the haste spell was only avaibale to the wizard but that did not make it balanced. Likewise spell holy word, which is also widely regarded as being overpowered, is not balanced by being a cleric-only spell. Myth 6: Energy powers are overpowered Answer: While there are four versions of every energy power, one for cold, fire, electricity and sonic each, the fact is that no matter which version you use, you are still using an energy type, which many creatures become immune to in later levels. While the Psion does have the versatility of 4 options, fire, cold, electricity, and sonic, the two strongest, fire and cold, are also the two most commonly resisted or immune. Electricity is another that is a common immunity, and sonic is balanced by decreasing the damage per die. The option of Force powers tends to halve the damage output of the Energy powers, and comes in much fewer choices. Some argue that the fact that Psionic characters can decide on the fly what energy to use is unbalanced, but the problem with this argument is that the Psionic classes suffers from extreme lack of options. They have very few choices for powers. The Psion only stays slightly ahead of the Sorcerer until later levels, when the Sorcerer has more spells known than the Psion has powers known, and the Wilder has even fewer than that. By giving this flexibility, it keeps the Psion from being a "one trick pony" and making their limited options entirely useless in the wrong situation. The wizard can counter this by preparing new spells (given enough time, granted), but the Psion does not have this option. Ok here i completely disagree. First there is the common mistake that energy damage spells are less powerful because they are easier to resist. This has absolutely nothing to do with spell levels or the like. If a monster is resistant to a certain kind of energy then this is reflected in its CR so it cannot be used again as a balancing factor for the spell. Second given that almost no monsters has a complete immunity to energy damage of any kind the psion can usually choose to negate a monster's abilty on the fly which no other class can do easily. Basically they come with four(!!!) free energy substitution feats and therefore are more powerful than wizard/sorcerer spells. Third the energy powers are not only somewhat more powerful in the amount of damage they deal they require different kinds of saves according to the energy type or give other dubious benefits. This is entirely arbitrary and also pure meta-gaming. Why does a energy cone (cold) require a fort save while an cone of cold require a reflex save? Why does an energy bolt (electricity) give +2 to power penetration and save DC while an ordinary lightningbolt does not? Pure nonsense. Fourth saying that psions need this versatility because of their lack of options due to their small numbers of powers is bogus. Sorcerers are much more restricted in this areas, especially if you take into account that through augmentations some powers are equal to several different spells (astral construct / summon monster for instance). Previously sorcerers where the supreme battlefield artillery but psions(kineticists) are clearly superior to them. Not only do their damage spells come with build-in energy substitutions they also get free spell focus and spell penetration feats if they choose to use electricity, additional damage for fire and cold and the ability to switch from reflex to fort saves (cold) for monsters with good reflex saves or evasion abilities This is further enhanced by the fact that psions get bonus feats and sorcerers don't Myth 8: Metapsionic feats are too powerful, they cost less than metamagic feats Answer: Metapsionic feats cost 2 fewer power points than previously, but cost Psionic focus. Psionic focus is something that normally requires a full round action in and of itself to regain and can only be used once per feat pre-epic and is also covered in Myth 3. With yet another feat selected, Psionic Meditation, the manifester can get focus back as a move action and manifest the same round - just like a sorcerer - but has to pay for that in the cost of one of their very, very limited feats. I don't think that metapsionic feats are overpowered but psionic meditation possibly is. Going from a full-round action to a move action is a rather big step. It would have been more logical if it reduced the time to get focused afain to a standard action with maybe an improved psionic meditation for the move action. Myth 10: Metamorphosis, Greater is overpowered Answer: Met, Gr is a 9th level Egoist-only power. This may seem like an obvious statement, but it is important to understand that only Egoists or those who paid lots of gp and xp via Psychic Chirurgery, which requires DM intervention anyway, can have access to this power. Further, it costs an XP penalty every time it is manifested and cannot be accessed until 17th level. Egoist-only is no balancing factor. See above. Myth 11: Schism is overpowered Answer: There are several aspects of Schism that balance its power: 1. Telepath-only: by restricting it to only Telepaths or requiring a 9th level or higher non-Telepath to use a feat, access to this power is limited or costly to a character 2. Manifester level - 6 for manifesting: Powers at -6 Manifester levels will typically not have a high enough saving throw to be useful if using offensive powers, will not do a substantial amount of damage, or are buff/utility-type powers . . . 6. Limited Power Points: A Psionic character, as stressed above, has an extremely limited amount of power points to draw from. By manifesting this power and then further drawing from the pool to manifest extra powers per round, the Psionic character is burning out at roughly 1.5 the normal rate. In a multiple-encounter per day environment, this character will be nearly worthless in the last encounter if "abusing" this power. 1.) Not a balancing factor. See above. 2.) Even rather low powered buffing spells can provide a serious advantage. 3.) In 3.0E the haste spell was considerd overpowered mainly because it allowed casters to cast twice per round and this is exactly what schism does. It is less broken than that spell because it functions at caster level -6 but it is still immensly useful. In general i think that any spell or power that grants you additional actions, probably the most valuable resource characters have in this game, is a bad idea. Myth 12: Vigor is overpowered Answer: While Vigor has one of the best HP / PP ratios when comparing similar healing-type spells converted into power points, it is offset by the fact that it is a) self only and b) temporary hit points. Temporary hit points do not stack with each other, they overlap. What this means is that unless you manifest a stronger version of Vigor than the temporary HP you have remaining, you gain no benefit, and actually waste PP if you manifest Vigor while still under the effect of a previous manifestation. An example would be having 25 temporary hit points from a 5 pp manifestation of Vigor, then taking 10 points of damage. You would have to manifest at least a 4 pp version of Vigor to gain any benefit, as you still have 15 temporary hit points. With 4 pp, you only gain 5 effective temporary hit points, which is not very efficient. Temporary HP and healing are two completely different things and should not be compared to each other. The first one basically provides some sort of damage reduction (until all the the temporary hp are lost) while healing cures damage. Generally speaking temeporary HP drastically increase a characters ability to survive massive amounts of damage which healing does not. Myth 16: Psionics are more powerful than wizards due to their damage powers Answer: While a psion can easily outdamage, on average, a wizard in a single combat due to the way powers are manifested / augmented, the depletion of that psion's power points is so rapid that, in a typical game, the next encounter or the encounter after that, he will be completely drained of power points and useless. The psionic characters were balanced based upon the entry in the Dungeon Master's Guide that parties should have four encounters per day of an equal challenge rating to the average party level, or two encounters per day of a challenge rating two higher than the average party level. In situations where a manifester only has one or two encounters in a day's time, they are going to outdamage the majority of the other characters. However, if that same character has to deal with four or more encounters in a day, or deals with the intended quantity of encounters as set down in the DMG, they are very balanced. If you translate spell slots a wizard gains into power points to manifest an equal level power, you will see that the numbers for the two classes are almost identical, with the Wizard actually slightly favored due to 0th level spells that psions do not gain. This is the basis for the balancing factor of 4 encounters per day. I have already adressed this above in detail. I'll just say that being not a robust class against variations in style of play is also a form of being unbalanced. Myth 18: Time Regression is too strong Answer: Time Regression is a 9th level power - Nomad only - meaning Psychic Warriors, Wilders, and non-Nomad psions can never access it without DM intervention. Only 17th level and higher Nomads can get it normally. ... Nomad-only is not a balancing factor. See above. Furthermore being 9th level does not exclude a spell / power from having to be balanced. Myth 19: Astral Construct is too good for a 1st level power Answer: Astral Construct - first and foremost, is Shaper only. All other classes / disciplines must use a feat to access this power. Second, Boost Construct, while nice, is yet another feat a Shaper / Psion must spend of their limited 12 / 13 (if human) feats in their career. The Astral Construct is not all that different from Summon Nature's Ally / Monsters of the same level as the augmented power. You must keep in mind that druids get 9 different Summon Nature's Ally, while the Psion must augment his to get the nicer ones, effectively making a 3 pp Astral Construct equal to Summon Nature's Ally II / Summon Monster II. If you compare apples to apples, Summon Monster V to Astral Construct level 5, you tend to find that, while in some cases, one or the other is better, typically it is not overpoweringly so. 1.) A first level shaper can create a construct that is considerably more powerful than anything a summon monster I / summon nature's ally I spell can summon. 2.) That druid's get all nature's ally spells is a moot thing, since divine casters have access to all spells anyway. The class against which the psion should be measured is the sorcerer and he has to take all summon monster spells individually. 3.) It is correct that at higher levels there are less problems with astral constructs / summon X comparisons. But at first level astral construct is more powerful. Myth 20: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is overpowered Answer: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is Mind-Affecting. This is very, very, very important and usually overlooked. Many, many, many creatures in D&D are immune to mind-affecting effects. Undead, constructs, mindless, innate immunities, buffs, etc. Yes, this power is nice, but it is easily negated by having mindless / immune enemies. Situtationally being very good does not make a power too strong - it means it is situational. Harm type spells, conversely, are Negative Energy - which many, many more creatures are not immune to, making it far more likely to work. . . . You are constantly falling victim to the idea that powers/spells are balanced by the possibilty that monsters / opponents may have immunities against them, This is wrong! It is already factored into the CR of that monster and has nothing to do with spell / power balance. Myth 21: Elans are overpowered Answer: The Elan racial abilities, at first glance, are quite powerful. However, several things need to be taken into account before deeming them overpowered. First, usage of any of the saving throw / damage negating abilities uses the character's immediate action. Use of an immediate action means the character cannot use another immediate or swift action until after their next turn. So, a character playing an Elan could activate the damage reducing ability and negate 10 hp of damage, but if the next enemy casts a spell on him, he now cannot boost his saving throws - he's already used his one action for that round. Second, the cost of the damage reducing ability is subpar compared to the temporary HP buff of Vigor. A quick Vigor buff will not only save the Elan power points, but grant them better HP usable for more than just a one-shot. Third, unless the character is a psion or wilder, their number of power points is more than likely extremely limited, meaning the number of times per day they can use these abilities can usually be counted on one hand. If the character is a Psion or Wilder, they are then taking away power points used to manifest more efficient powers / offensive powers, taking away from their combat ability. The Elan racial abilities, while nice, are mostly for extreme emergencies than anything else. Use of them on a regular basis will end up with a character who, while hard to kill, won't be able to contribute as much to combat. If you feel that these abilities need to be brought in line, limit the number of power points that can be spent on any of these abilities as 1 / HD or 1 / 2 HD, or something that suits your taste. 1.) That the elan's abilities use up it's immideate action is not a balancing factor. On the contrary it gives the elan such an action when he should normally get none. 2.) Immideate actions are more favourable than quick/swift actions since you can take them when it is not your turn. They can be used as an reaction to something that another character / monster does. Using your example of a quickened vigor the elan has to use that in advance of any damage he might suffer thus possibly wasting PP. The ability to respond to anything unanticipated is immensely useful. 3.) Elan's have a racial ability that is not a fixed bonus / penalty but rather scales with levels in specific classes. This is bad game design. Myth 23: The Slayer is overpowered Answer:No, I don't mean Buffy. There exist two versions of this prestige class, the Illithid Slayer in the XPH and the Slayer in the SRD. The first is balanced by requiring DM intervention to meet the prerequisites, something that can easily be used to keep it out of any game. The second has no RP requirements and is the main focus of this myth. A Psychic Warrior 6 / Slayer 10 / ClassX 4 is not commonly viewed as overpowered. Any hit to the Psychic Warrior's manifester level is huge due to the extremely limited nature that is the Psychic Warrior's manifester chart. However, a Psion 8 / Slayer 10 / Full BAB class 2 has been seen as pretty strong, bordering on the overpowered side. What needs to be taken into account when deciding if this prestige class is acceptable to use would be two things: other sources allowed, who is taking it. If the answer to the second is the Psychic Warrior, I would say it is not going to cause much of a problem. The Psychic Warrior will be somewhat stronger, but not overpoweringly so. Remember, he's also losing out on effectively 2 bonus feats (due to the bonus feats of the Slayer) along with a manifester level. If the answer to the second is a Psion and the Complete series and 3.0 splatbooks are not allowed, I'd rethink allowing the generic SRD Slayer into the game. This class is decidedly stronger than the Core Eldritch Knight and grants far too much for any Psion to be able to enter into it. The psion does lose out on 3 Psion bonus feats (10, 15, 20) and 3 manifester levels, but can get 9th level powers and be considered a strong Gish build. Worst case scenario, stick with the XPH version, as then, unless you have the party hunt an Illithid, they won't be able to get access anyway. Even if you only use the XPH variant this class is overpowered if you play a campaign that focuses on illithids. A PrC that forces you to abbandon one of the most iconic D&D monsters cannot be considered a valid concept.
Bacris 04-21-05, 03:34 PM	I don't have time to address all of that right now. However, a ninth level discipline-specific power is a valid balancing factor, and the fighter is a weak class.
Vharuck 04-21-05, 03:56 PM	Psionics are balanced if you slavishly adhere to the proposed style of play and it is your fault that they are not if for instance you choose to have only two or three encounter per day? Maybe it is only me but balanced in my definition means that a rule, item, spell, feat or in this case psionics as a whole can be dropped into a game without having to fear that it explodes in your face as soon as you do something creative with it that the designers did not anticipate. How about this: I was in a level 20 group and a dracolich and a number of other liches appeared. We knew they were going to teleport in, but I was the only one in the party who had the sense to ready a Greater Dispel Magic. We still destroyed them in a single round. Not everyone in the party got to go. Why? One of us cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction, others attacked, and one basically opened a Gate and sent the dracolich to the positive energy plane. All casters and classes whose abilities are x/day (spells are x/day) are broken if they get to blow them all on one encounter. Also, an encounter includes: -Traps -Difficult diplomacy or NPC interaction -Stealing something -Infiltration -Whatever else you can think of that isn't combat Plus, as a DM, you must tailor your encounters so that your game is balanced. Accept it. A single creature of CR 12 should be equal to two CR 10 creatures, but single creatures tend to do badly. Safety in numbers. Make the psion not go nova on a single creature and win the fight. This is no different than a wizard dumping his highest-level spells immediately. IMHO most PrC have the awful tendency to increase the power level of the game and are therefore more powerful than the standard classes. So i don't think that a fighter/PrC multi-class character should be the yardstick for a PsyWar. Well, then, what? The fighter sucks at higher levels when his feat trees die out and suddenly what once were good feats are really subpar? The PsyWar is definately one of the more powerful classes in the game and frankly i do not have enough experience with PsyWars in my group to determine if they are really overpowered or not. But i think what many people have problems with is that the PsyWar is a very self-sufficient class and is much less dependant on others. Besides the low reflex and will saves they have no apparent weaknesses and i think that is why so many people are weary of them. They have d8 hit die, so they have less hp than a fighter. They have medium BAB, although their class is a straight fighting class. I mean, every other medium BAB class gets something else that helps when not in a fight. Not the psywar. You get powers that are helpful during a fight, but are as limited as a fighter in out-of-combat situations. Ok, this will come up some more times but i'll try to make it clear here: No power is ever balanced by the fact that it only appears in a discipline list and not on the general psion list! Balance is about whether a spell is comparably powerful to the other spells a party might have at their disposal at a given level not by the fact that some classes cannot use them. E.g. in 3.0E when you had a standard party (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) the haste spell was only avaibale to the wizard but that did not make it balanced. Likewise spell holy word, which is also widely regarded as being overpowered, is not balanced by being a cleric-only spell. This was included since there are so many people on the boards who have claimed they find it broken when a psion uses with [insert lvl 9 Egoist power]. Many people refuse to read the rules except for a cursory glance. First there is the common mistake that energy damage spells are less powerful because they are easier to resist. This has absolutely nothing to do with spell levels or the like. If a monster is resistant to a certain kind of energy then this is reflected in its CR so it cannot be used again as a balancing factor for the spell. Second given that almost no monsters has a complete immunity to energy damage of any kind the psion can usually choose to negate a monster's abilty on the fly which no other class can do easily. Basically they come with four(!!!) free energy substitution feats and therefore are more powerful than wizard/sorcerer spells. However, energy resistance is easy to get. Many simple spells and items give it. Also, might I remind you that wizards also get force damage? Third the energy powers are not only somewhat more powerful in the amount of damage they deal they require different kinds of saves according to the energy type or give other dubious benefits. This is entirely arbitrary and also pure meta-gaming. Why does a energy cone (cold) require a fort save while an cone of cold require a reflex save? Why does an energy bolt (electricity) give +2 to power penetration and save DC while an ordinary lightningbolt does not? Pure nonsense. Because you think they should be the same does not make it so. Psionics is [I]different people. Not everything should be copied and pasted. That's boring. Fourth saying that psions need this versatility because of their lack of options due to their small numbers of powers is bogus. Sorcerers are much more restricted in this areas, especially if you take into account that through augmentations some powers are equal to several different spells (astral construct / summon monster for instance). Previously sorcerers where the supreme battlefield artillery but psions(kineticists) are clearly superior to them. Not only do their damage spells come with build-in energy substitutions they also get free spell focus and spell penetration feats if they choose to use electricity, additional damage for fire and cold and the ability to switch from reflex to fort saves (cold) for monsters with good reflex saves or evasion abilities. This is further enhanced by the fact that psions get bonus feats and sorcerers don't. A sorcerer who only chooses the best evocation spells should do poorly. A kineticist, who gets good energy powers, can only learn how to create useful items/minions, mess well with the minds of others, change his body in a decent way, etc, by spending lots of feats. Does your sorcerer want a good illusion spell? Pick it when you level up! It's sort of like becoming a specialist and, although not banned from any school, getting decent powers from those schools is difficult and costly. Oh, and take the single feat Energy Substitution. I don't think that metapsionic feats are overpowered but psionic meditation possibly is. Going from a full-round action to a move action is a rather big step. It would have been more logical if it reduced the time to get focused afain to a standard action with maybe an improved psionic meditation for the move action. Until you have any proof other than "I feel like it," this has no bearing. 2.) Even rather low powered buffing spells can provide a serious advantage. But 1 per turn. At -6 manifester level. After paying for this power. 3.) In 3.0E the haste spell was considerd overpowered mainly because it allowed casters to cast twice per round and this is exactly what schism does. It is less broken than that spell because it functions at caster level -6 but it is still immensly useful. In general i think that any spell or power that grants you additional actions, probably the most valuable resource characters have in this game, is a bad idea. It was overpowered since they could cast another one of their hgihest level spells per turn. Also they kept the full caster level (so same Xd6 for both spells that turn). The schismed mind can only manifest powers that are 3 levels below what the psion can normally manifest. You have a 10th level psion? His schismed mind can only manifest 2nd level powers, and even then only spend 4 pp on each of them. 4d6 and 10d6 damage does not even compare to 10d6 and 10d6. Not to mention the fact that the 10d6 and 10d6 are at the same save DCs, whereas the schismed mind (with its lower-level powers) has lower DCs. Temporary HP and healing are two completely different things and should not be compared to each other. The first one basically provides some sort of damage reduction (until all the the temporary hp are lost) while healing cures damage. Generally speaking temeporary HP drastically increase a characters ability to survive massive amounts of damage which healing does not. I have learned one thing as a DM: if I want to make a creature tougher, I do not add hp. That just makes the complete ownage of it drag on. If you want to survive much longer, you need to raise AC, Str (best defense is a good offense), and such. If a psion wastes his power points constantly on Vigor, he'll sorely regret it. Nomad-only is not a balancing factor. See above. Furthermore being 9th level does not exclude a spell / power from having to be balanced. It lets you go back only 1 round. And then only you have knowledge of what happened. Usually, the round before a TPK, you were screwed anyways. Plus it costs XP, so it won't be done lightly. 1.) A first level shaper can create a construct that is considerably more powerful than anything a summon monster I / summon nature's ally I spell can summon. That's just because Summon Monster I sucks. Compare it to any level 1 spell. To suck at that level is really hard, but it pulls it off. I mean, a friggin' monkey? 2.) That druid's get all nature's ally spells is a moot thing, since divine casters have access to all spells anyway. The class against which the psion should be measured is the sorcerer and he has to take all summon monster spells individually. This is where the flashing red lights go off. Psions are NOT sorcerers. Comparing to the sorcerer (which anyways is a generally agreed low-powered class) is as good as comparing to the cleric or druid or ranger. This is a wholely different class. Heck, it's a whole different system. Direct comparisons will show unequal areas. However, I could turn this right around on you. A sorcerer can make up for lots of evocation and conjuration spells he doesn't know by taking both Greater Shadow Evocation and Shades. Broken? No. Just different. You are constantly falling victim to the idea that powers/spells are balanced by the possibilty that monsters / opponents may have immunities against them, This is wrong! It is already factored into the CR of that monster and has nothing to do with spell / power balance. Protection Against X. Stops all [Mind-Affecting] powers. Plus, many higher-power opponents do have immunity. I was a telepath in an undead fight. I was more useless than the rogue. Firing off my bow randomly, hitting nothing. 1.) That the elan's abilities use up it's immideate action is not a balancing factor. On the contrary it gives the elan such an action when he should normally get none. And the elf gets 3 free feats where he should get none. Oh wait, he should get them, because races get these special abilities. 2.) Immideate actions are more favourable than quick/swift actions since you can take them when it is not your turn. They can be used as an reaction to something that another character / monster does. Using your example of a quickened vigor the elan has to use that in advance of any damage he might suffer thus possibly wasting PP. The ability to respond to anything unanticipated is immensely useful. Useful, yes. However, note that if you use an immediate action, you cannot use a swift or quickened action until after your next turn. It counts towards that. So that quickened or swift power you wanted to fire off? Nope. 3.) Elan's have a racial ability that is not a fixed bonus / penalty but rather scales with levels in specific classes. This is bad game design. Woe be to the elan who uses this ability later in the game. It is a waste of power points. It scales downward, surprisingly. It's just not smart to use your pp on this. It may save you (maybe) for one turn, but then you just blew a bunch of your limited pp pool. Even if you only use the XPH variant this class is overpowered if you play a campaign that focuses on illithids. A PrC that forces you to abbandon one of the most iconic D&D monsters cannot be considered a valid concept. That's cute. How you call the XPH version a "variant." I have yet to run or play in a game with an illithid. Just because you're playing D&D does not make the illithid (or the Beholder or the Forgotten Realms) obligatory.
Vharuck 04-21-05, 03:57 PM	I don't have time to address all of that right now. Hope I did it well enough. :P
Nephlite 04-21-05, 04:44 PM	Ok, this will come up some more times but i'll try to make it clear here: No power is ever balanced by the fact that it only appears in a discipline list and not on the general psion list! Balance is about whether a spell is comparably powerful to the other spells a party might have at their disposal at a given level not by the fact that some classes cannot use them. E.g. in 3.0E when you had a standard party (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) the haste spell was only avaibale to the wizard but that did not make it balanced. Likewise spell holy word, which is also widely regarded as being overpowered, is not balanced by being a cleric-only spell. Maybe you haven't played a Cleric. Domain powers are just like Discipline powers. Clerics get certain spells at lower levels that Wizard/Sorceror/Cleric General list. And many powers only on Discipline are stronger than ones on general. The reason: The spell is balanced by the fact that it only appears in a Domain list and not on the general Cleric list!
CycloneRanger 04-21-05, 06:45 PM	1.) That the elan's abilities use up it's immideate action is not a balancing factor. On the contrary it gives the elan such an action when he should normally get none. You are mistaken here. I am playing an Elan in the campaign I am currently involved in. Making those abilities immediate actions prevents their being used more than once a round. An example: When attacked by what I thought was an effect dealing fire damage (DM described it as feeling an intense heat; whether it actually was fire damage or was not is irrelevent for this discussion) I had a choice: either 1) manifest energy resistance as an immediate action, hoping to absorb twenty points of the damage, or 2) use my racial ability to grant +4 to the saving throw I presumed I would get in the hope of more efficiently avoiding damage. I chose number one, (and got hosed later that round). The point is that you cannot use these abilities in the same round that you have used a quickened power or have used another racial ability requiring an immediate action. This is a serious consideration for me most of the time, and I do not even possess Quicken Power. The elan's racial abilities are balanced in the short-term by being usable 1/round (which restricts use of powers) and balanced in the long-term by being usable x/times per day, where x is completely dependent on power points remaining. It is another ability that drains from the same pool of resources (the psion's time and power points) that other powers drain from. It is useful (adding an extra option), but is not overpowered. 2.) Immideate actions are more favourable than quick/swift actions since you can take them when it is not your turn. They can be used as an reaction to something that another character / monster does. Using your example of a quickened vigor the elan has to use that in advance of any damage he might suffer thus possibly wasting PP. The ability to respond to anything unanticipated is immensely useful. Yes, it is very useful. However, as I explained above, it has serious limitations. As for Vigor vs. Resiliency (if that is the one that lets you ignore damage), resiliency is more useful for dealing with something unexpected. However, it only blocks 2 damage per power point spent. Vigor must be used pre-emptively, but is more efficient if you know you will need it. In any case, I have found that resiliency is only rarely very useful, as hit points are easily restored by clerics or cheap magic items after battle, while power points are lost for an entire day. Still useful (as you can, for instance, avoid a ghoul's paralysis, or prevent just enough damage to keep your character conscious), but not overpowered. 3.) Elan's have a racial ability that is not a fixed bonus / penalty but rather scales with levels in specific classes. This is bad game design. What? Of course it scales with level, but so does almost every other racial ability. Consider a grey elf's +2 intelligence. This adds +1 to all spell DCs at every level (and is just as useful to a high level character as a low-level one). Also, it scales in an exponential fashion for purposes of bonus spells. At low levels, it grants a few more bonus spells, but at high levels, it grants many more. Even a gnome's +2 constitution scales with level. Almost all racial abilities do. An example of one that did not scale with level would be a race that had fire resistance 5. It is more useful at low levels than at high ones. A Dwarf with twenty levels is getting more out of his +2 Constitution than a first level dwarf, just as an elan with twenty levels (note that they must be levels in psionic classes in this case) gets more out of his racial abilities.
Sir Elton 04-21-05, 07:19 PM	You also have to remember that the other bonuses also scale. A +2 to Charisma scales just as nicely, and so does a +2 to strength. A 20th level fighter with a +20 BAB and a +2 strength can hit 105% of the time.
Bacris 04-21-05, 10:06 PM	I really have to ask... action cost, feat cost, and other issues... how do these not constitute balance factors? I don't understand that logic. You can only do it once per round, but that doesn't matter in balance consideration... Only an Egoist can do it, but that doesn't matter in balance consideration... PrCs (even core-only) are overpowered, but that doesn't matter in balance consideration... Healing can't be compared to HP buffing, so that doesn't matter in balance consideration... What constitutes valid for balance consideration? By your logic, 75% of the core spells are overpowered.
CycloneRanger 04-21-05, 11:13 PM	I think I understand... When Vanamir says "balancing factor" he does not mean the same thing that I do when I use the same phrase. I would guess that his "balancing factor" is more what I would call a genuine penalty, one that brings the power of that ability back to 0 (a bonus balanced with an equal penalty). Of course the fact that it is an immediate action for an elan to use Resiliency is not a penalty that brings the net power back to 0. It is a restriction that brings that ability's power to reasonable levels, but not all the way to zero. To me, balancing factor means a restriction that weakens an ability from what it might otherwise be, and prevents it from being overpowered as it would be without said factor. Vanamir means a balancing factor that is an actual penalty; like the elf's -2 penalty to constitution. Balance, however, is not a simple test of a bonus to one area equals a penalty to another. A race that gets +8 constitution and -8 strength is not exactly as powerful as an identical race without ability modifiers. It is, in fact, more powerful. This is because players will pick classes that benefit from a race's strengths and are not harmed by its weaknesses (wizard or psion works in this example). Therefore, a race of humans with +8 constitution and -8 strength is far more powerful than a standard human. In the same way, although to a lesser extent, a race with +2 to one ability score and -2 to another is more powerful than the same race without that ability. Improving one attribute at the expense of another results in a net increase in power. This is important. That is why the elan is balanced compared to other races. The elan gains its power from bonus abilities without equivalent penalties, rather than greater bonuses with greater penalties. It is not balanced in the sense that +2 -2 = 0; the elan has abilities with insufficient penalties to balance them by that logic. It adds up to more than 0 power. It is a power increase. This is not unbalanced because, as we have seen within the realm of Dungeons and Dragons game balance, +2 -2 = more than zero. It is in this context that the elan is balanced. The same thing is true of many of your other balance arguments. You must look at comparative power, not power in terms of simple pluses and minuses. Of course, I could be completely wrong, and you may mean exactly what I mean when I say class balance.
Sir Elton 04-22-05, 08:26 AM	Balance, however, is not a simple test of a bonus to one area equals a penalty to another. A race that gets +8 constitution and -8 strength is not exactly as powerful as an identical race without ability modifiers. It is, in fact, more powerful. This is because players will pick classes that benefit from a race's strengths and are not harmed by its weaknesses (wizard or psion works in this example). Therefore, a race of humans with +8 constitution and -8 strength is far more powerful than a standard human. In the same way, although to a lesser extent, a race with +2 to one ability score and -2 to another is more powerful than the same race without that ability. Improving one attribute at the expense of another results in a net increase in power. This is important. That is why the elan is balanced compared to other races. The elan gains its power from bonus abilities without equivalent penalties, rather than greater bonuses with greater penalties. It is not balanced in the sense that +2 -2 = 0; the elan has abilities with insufficient penalties to balance them by that logic. It adds up to more than 0 power. It is a power increase. This is not unbalanced because, as we have seen within the realm of Dungeons and Dragons game balance, +2 -2 = more than zero. It is in this context that the elan is balanced. The same thing is true of many of your other balance arguments. You must look at comparative power, not power in terms of simple pluses and minuses. I always thought that balance had everything to do with fairness, actually. Balance in the way of comparative power is a proper way of looking at it from a fairness point of view.
Vanamir 04-22-05, 09:25 AM	I think I understand... When Vanamir says "balancing factor" he does not mean the same thing that I do when I use the same phrase. . . . You must look at comparative power, not power in terms of simple pluses and minuses. When i talk about balance i actually always consider comparative balance since balance is always relativ to something else. I think what perhaps seperates me from most other posters here is that i also prominently factor into balance the question whether something is equally powerful/useful in different styles of play. It is often forgotten that game balance is largely dependant on your style of play and if additional rules are balanced on very specific assumptions regarding that style i do not consider them balanced. E.g. the core game has a sort of (sometimes shakey) game balance between its different classes. For instance you have the fighter who is the most durable class in the game (all abilities usable unlimited number of times per day) but arguably low "peak" power due to its lack of limited use abilites like rage, smite or spells. Casters on the other side of the spectrum have a very high peak power but can do so only very limited number of times per day. Enter psionics. Due to the way psionics work they are an even more extreme form of arcane casters with their high peak efficiency for a short duration. So from now on every variation in your style of play regarding numbers and level of encounters per day has to be judged against the fighter on the one end and psions on the other. This does not necessarily make psionics unbalanced but it still changes one of the fundamental cornerstones of game balance. Maybe i should have made it more clear so i want to say it here again: i do not necessarily consider psionics to be overpowered but i do regard them somewhat incompatible or problematic with certain styles of play. I personally tend to have fewer encounters per day than four but those are usually at a higher EL than the party's average ECL. Of course this somewhat favours primary casters but it favours psions even more. So i might say that in regard to my style of play psions are not balanced.
DisposableHero_ 04-22-05, 09:59 AM	Enter psionics. Due to the way psionics work they are an even more extreme form of arcane casters with their high peak efficiency for a short duration. So from now on every variation in your style of play regarding numbers and level of encounters per day has to be judged against the fighter on the one end and psions on the other. This does not necessarily make psionics unbalanced but it still changes one of the fundamental cornerstones of game balance. 1) While true what you say that psions are even more extreme in peak efficiency and short duration, I don't believe that the difference is quite as drastic as you make it out to be. In the past I've run some examples and numbers of how quickly an optimized psion can defeat combat encounters of around his challenege rating and then compared them to the options availble to an optimized wizard and sorcerer now this was done in a manner that was no way comprehensive, but the difference is rarely pronounced or dramatic, and at high levels the wizard and sorcerer expend far fewer resources to accomplish the same thing. In shot, I agree the psion does have high peak efficiency until somewhere around 16th or 17th level, but its not a dramatic one. 2) Any style of play rigidly and blindly adhered to is going to favor one type of character over another. This is inevitable with characters of varried abilities. The cure for this is simple, even if you (as a DM not a player) do not intend to change your style very much, you must at least threaten to, or change occasionally to keep players honest. Psionics, thanks to the power point system, gives a level of control to the player unmatched by other casting systems (this is in fact the thing I like most about psionics). The most dangerous bit of information the psion's player can have is "I will be able to rest and recover my PP unmolested when this encounter is over". If a player knows this, there is no reason for him to leave anything in the tank. Even if its true, a DM has to make sure that its not obvious. A psion is not broken if the player is only trying to use enough power to defeat the encounter at hand, and is concerned with keeping as much of his power as possible for future trouble. The same is true of any character with x/day abilities. You don't have to change your style of play, but you have to let your players know you will if there characters start to get out of hand.
Vharuck 04-22-05, 10:03 AM	Well, then maybe throw in a day where there are 8 encounters, each with an EL of 2 less than the party. I tell you, the fighter will love you! He'll keep plowing through the wealkings like they were nothing, doing as well in the last fight as the first, while the wizard/sorcerer/psion will be shooting their dinky little crossbows after blowing it all on the first and second fight. Then, they might ration better. If not, oh well. You gave the fighter his limelight.
Vanamir 04-22-05, 10:10 AM	I really have to ask... action cost, feat cost, and other issues... how do these not constitute balance factors? I don't understand that logic. You can only do it once per round, but that doesn't matter in balance consideration... Only an Egoist can do it, but that doesn't matter in balance consideration... PrCs (even core-only) are overpowered, but that doesn't matter in balance consideration... Healing can't be compared to HP buffing, so that doesn't matter in balance consideration... What constitutes valid for balance consideration? By your logic, 75% of the core spells are overpowered. Bacris maybe you misunderstood me. I do not necessarily disgree with your conclusions but i often disagree with the way you come to them. A lot of your arguments are based on very specific assumptions and i simply do not share those assumptions. Concerning all those spells i frankly admit that i never played at levels where 9th level spells/powers come into play so i do not know whether some of them are balanced or not. But you constantly claim that certain powers are primarily balanced by the fact that they are only on a specific powers list which is just plain wrong. They have to be compared to other spells, powers and special abilities of similar level. Since psions are conceptually closest to arcane casters their powers should naturally be compared to arcane spells. Besides that comparing temporary HP and healing is like comparing apples to peaches. Even core PrC have the tendancy to be overpowered. Most arguments i have seen so far that claim certain core classes to be underpowered are based on some PrC that are more favourable than core classes at higher levels. All those who claim that fighers are seriously underpowered should consider a day on which the party has six, seven or eight encounters. I do not consider fighters a particularly strong class but as soon as the casters have cast their high level spells, the barbarians have used up all their rages, the paladins have been through with smiting evil the fighter is still at full fighting capacity where the others are not. No not 75% of the core spells are overpowered but still a lot of them are especially for those who have a style of play that does not 100% conform to that the game designers had in mind. What constitutes valid for balance considerations? How about this: It should not change the game dynamics. *]It should not be so strong that it disadvantages those who stick with the core options. It should not be so weak / useless that anyone who takes it is disadvantaged compared to those who did stick with the core options. It should not be something that the GM has to be constantly aware of when designing adventures and encounters. Don't get me wrong I do not dislike psionics. But i think that you cannot easily say that they are balanced or not since they have a strong impact on the way the game is played. If you accomodate to the new options and the strengths and weaknesses associated with psionics you will be just fine but they are not the kind of balanced that you can drop them into any campaign without serious effects on the way the game is played.
DMsDelight 04-22-05, 10:19 AM	Even if you only use the XPH variant this class is overpowered if you play a campaign that focuses on illithids. A PrC that forces you to abbandon one of the most iconic D&D monsters cannot be considered a valid concept. That's cute. How you call the XPH version a "variant." I have yet to run or play in a game with an illithid. Just because you're playing D&D does not make the illithid (or the Beholder or the Forgotten Realms) obligatory. Let us not forget. The Slayer class is way too situational. Yes, if you're fighting Illithids, you'll rock their socks, but anything else, particularly things that don't F with the mind...you suck.
Vharuck 04-22-05, 10:23 AM	All those who claim that fighers are seriously underpowered should consider a day on which the party has six, seven or eight encounters. I do not consider fighters a particularly strong class but as soon as the casters have cast their high level spells, the barbarians have used up all their rages, the paladins have been through with smiting evil the fighter is still at full fighting capacity where the others are not. Here, here, buddy! I understand if there can't be more than one encounter per day for "story reasons," but you're the DM! You write the story! Your job is not to write a story and then shove your players in. It's to write a story suited to all of your players. Make up a story reason for a lot of encounters per day. Meeting different groups in 16 hours isn't that unlikely, especially when travelling. 3. It should not be something that the GM has to be constantly aware of when designing adventures and encounters. Gotta disagree with you here, friend. If my wizard just took Levitate when he hit 3rd level, I will not design a labyrinth with an open top. Instead, I may put a ceiling on. If one of my players makes a psion, some of my villains will have anti-psionic items, feats, or tools (like those nifty diseases). It is your job as a DM to be constantly aware of your players' abilities when designing adventures. Whether it be to limit them from bypassing everything with boring ease or making it so useful to give the player his time in the sun.
DisposableHero_ 04-22-05, 10:47 AM	All of the discussion so far in this thread and for the most part the original thread he centered around balance from a DMs perspective, with the psionic character being a PC. A lot of problems with the system arise when the reverse is true and its a psionic NPC fighting the players. Psionic NPCs by there nature automatically bypass a lot of the factors that go into making the psion a balanced PC class. As mentioned before Psions are, when optimized, usually on the highest available level when it comes to power output and the lowest available when it comes to longevity. But an NPC is only going to have one fight, the one with the party, and if he/she plans to fight to the death (or is not given a choice in the matter as frequently happens in my experience) there is no reason for the NPC to conserve PP. Powers that appear only on a discipline list is a balancing factor for those characters because it means they have to spend additional resources to acquire the power, either being of the appropriate class (and forcing them to take feats for other lists' powers) or by taking a feat and learning the power two levels later. This is not an issue for NPC villains who don't have a running campaign of development to worry about, and who are usually tailored for a single encounter with the PCs. Additionally, the psion NPC doesn't have to focus much on non-combat powers/skills/feats and is more streamlined for fighting, and worse yet, more streamlined for fighting a single encounter. XP costs mean nothing to them unless the DM wants them to. Ultimately a psion makes a much more dangerous NPC than PC because it is the scope of things over an extended time frame that balances psions, and non-recurring NPCs exist outside of that time frame.
Vharuck 04-22-05, 10:54 AM	Well, yeah. But that's called DM metagaming. And it's bad. It's the equivalent of your NPCs magically having the exact foils to every ability of your PCs. Yes, you are privvy to the fact that he is only useful in your campaign for one encounter against these specific opponents, but you still should think about what he has done with the rest of his life.
DisposableHero_ 04-22-05, 11:09 AM	But even in the case where the DM has accounted for the things the NPC needs to be able to do to be function outside the context of the encounter he was made for, if the NPC believes his life is on the line, he's not going to think twice about blasting away with everything he has, and in the case of the psion it can significantly increase how dangerous he is.
CycloneRanger 04-22-05, 11:53 AM	I agree with what Vanamir has said in his last posts. Psionics, as a system, gives more control over resource expenditure to the player of the psionic character. If there are fewer than four encounters per day almost every day of your campaign, then spellcasters will be unbalanced. They will be more powerful than fighter-types. Psions take this to the next level, and will be more unbalanced than spellcasters in this case, because of their greater control. I do not consider this to be a balance issue, because the game is designed for three to five encounters per day. Without that, some classes (wizards and to a greater extent psions) are more powerful than others. So yes, in that particular style of campaign, psionics will be overpowered. So will other caster types however, so my recommendation is still to avoid a campaign that consistently features only a small number of daily encounters.
DisposableHero_ 04-22-05, 12:19 PM	Let us not forget. The Slayer class is way too situational. Yes, if you're fighting Illithids, you'll rock their socks, but anything else, particularly things that don't F with the mind...you suck. I Strongly disagree, a Full BAB, 9/10 manifest levels, d8 hp class applied to a psion is far from situational. The fact that the slayer (or IS depending on the version you're reffering to) gains mind immunity while focused, blast feedback, and a huge favored enemy bonus is pretty much icing on the cake. If eldritch knight were converted for psionics directly (d6 hp full BAB 9/10 manifest levels and an entry requirement of profs with all martial weapons meaning another lost level of psion) it would still be significantly better than the arcane version of eldritch knight because psionics lend themselves better to fighter/caster types than arcane spells do (the ability to cast without failure in any armor alone is huge). This Psionic Knight would make for some very strong character builds and it is purely inferior to the Slayer or IS.
Vanamir 04-22-05, 12:40 PM	Well, yeah. But that's called DM metagaming. And it's bad. It's the equivalent of your NPCs magically having the exact foils to every ability of your PCs. Yes, you are privvy to the fact that he is only useful in your campaign for one encounter against these specific opponents, but you still should think about what he has done with the rest of his life. No, it is not metagaming. Metagaming is when characters no matter whether they are PCs or NPCs make decisions based purely on game mechanics and not on common sense and their personality. Whenever the BBEG is confronted with a life-threatening situation he should do what every sensible person would do: Fight for his life with all means at his disposal, no matter the cost. Unless the BBEG has very good reason to believe that he may be other adversaries nearby he should hold nothing back. After all he does not know that there is some mystic formula written into the fabric of the universe that tells him: There will be four encounter per day and you can do nothing about it. Furthermore i think that the four encounters per day rule is somewhat misunderstood. It does not even mean that characters should have four encounters every day. Rather than that it means that the game is (or should be) balanced in such a way that after four consecutive encounters the characters should have used up so many of their resources that they have to withdraw and regroup before they can proceed with the adventure. Of course as soon as the PCs run low on resources they will try to bail out even if they had only one or two encounters yet so at least to a certain extend the PCs have some influence on the number of encounters per day themselves. You may say that in this case other monsters / NPCs should give chase but this should also be the case after the standard four encounters and would lead us to the rather meta-gamey question how PCs are expected to survive intelligently played opponents at all.
Todd 04-22-05, 12:45 PM	I Strongly disagree, a Full BAB, 9/10 manifest levels, d8 hp class applied to a psion is far from situational. The fact that the slayer (or IS depending on the version you're reffering to) gains mind immunity while focused, blast feedback, and a huge favored enemy bonus is pretty much icing on the cake. If eldritch knight were converted for psionics directly (d6 hp full BAB 9/10 manifest levels and an entry requirement of profs with all martial weapons meaning another lost level of psion) it would still be significantly better than the arcane version of eldritch knight because psionics lend themselves better to fighter/caster types than arcane spells do (the ability to cast without failure in any armor alone is huge). This Psionic Knight would make for some very strong character builds and it is purely inferior to the Slayer or IS. I'm going to disagree. The SRD should have just excluded the Slayer so I'll give you that one. However the IS has major RP restrictions. For most psi-gish characters I would *much* rather have a Psionic Eldritch Knight than an IS, simply so I don't have to worry about things like the GM throwing a Illithid at my PC in time to take the class. I don't think that you can compare the IS to EK on mechanics alone. The RP factor and DM control are too significant to ignore. They help balance out the PrC quite well IMO.
Kaljamaha 04-22-05, 01:26 PM	I don't think the XPH is overpowered, but it does need some work. Also, some of the responses to the points raised in the first post were odd, to say the least. My criticism mostly echoes what Vanamir said. First, as Vanamir said, the fact that a power is on a Discipline list is not a factor when considering whether it is unbalanced. If your group has a Kineticist or Egoist or whatever, those powers are going to show up. Second, the Energy Powers. Bacris said in conjuction with Energy Missiles' DC: "...but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end." :confused: What does this have to do with anything? Either the DC is unbalanced compared to other powers/spells, or it is not. But more importantly, he never adequately explains why it is ok for psions to be able to pick energy type and save type on the fly. This is a huge advantage, that renders most energy resistances useless. This is one thing I'd change, forcing the psion to pick an element when choosing the power. Third, the problem (admittely a small one) with Overchannel is not that is enables the psion to inflict more damage. The problem is that it enables the psion to do things at earlier levels than was intended (my interpretation), for example with powers like Charm and Dominate, or any power that allows new things with augmentations. And lastly, yes Schism is too good. Extra actions, even limited ones, are too good. K.
Vharuck 04-22-05, 01:47 PM	Ok, about metagaming with NPCs. The arguments were: 1) The NPC will fight without restraint, as he knows he is fighting to the death- Ok. With this may I present that a psion has a high Intelligence. With a high intelligence, he will realize that a fight where he knows he will die is not worth it. He will only fight if he thinks he can win. Nobody will blow everything they have if they expect to survive afterwards. They don't want to win only to fall to a dire badger. They need reserve to teleport, call for help, or do anything that requires psionic power. A smart man plans for the worst and hopes for the best. If the PCs are after him, chances are this will not be the last battle he'll ever face if he wins. Plus it is very rare for somebody to fight to the death. Usually they die in a battle they thought they would survive, or the flee a battle they know they can't win. Only the most fervent people will devoutly fight to the death. And even then, it's not tactically sound. 2) The NPC was created for this one battle, and does not need non-combat skills, feats, or powers- I really just don't get this. I mean, the guy did not know from his birth that he was going to only fight during his entire life. I really can't think of any psion without non-combat powers. It's just dumb. This is metagaming. You went from designing a character to a weapon. Yes, the latter is more efficient, but is no longer a character but a bomb with a hastily written backstory. Basically it comes to this: you as a DM are responsible for balance. Many things within the game do not base themselves purely on logic, but on balance. Psionic classes are balanced classes. However, turning them into an opponent is like turning most monsters into players: they don't convert evenly. A Hill Giant is a CR 7 encounter, equal to a level 7 NPC Fighter. However, a Hill Giant PC is equal to a level 16 PC Fighter. Sometimes, you have to use your best judgement. Maybe psions need a CRA (Challenge Rating Adjustment), but I would doubt it since a well-prepared wizard can unload on you as well.
Tempest Stormwind 04-22-05, 01:55 PM	I don't think the XPH is overpowered, but it does need some work. Also, some of the responses to the points raised in the first post were odd, to say the least. My criticism mostly echoes what Vanamir said. First, as Vanamir said, the fact that a power is on a Discipline list is not a factor when considering whether it is unbalanced. If your group has a Kineticist or Egoist or whatever, those powers are going to show up. Yes, but if you have a Kineticist and an Egoist, then your party is going to have to burn feats to get Astral Construct, decent teleportation or flight, or telepathic staples. Your argument is sort of like saying that since you've got a cleric, you have to expect domain spells will show up -- ergo, you must expect EVERY domain spell to show up, ranging from Anyspell to Holy Star. You MUST see the flaw in that connection. Second, the Energy Powers. Bacris said in conjuction with Energy Missiles' DC: "...but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end." :confused: What does this have to do with anything? Either the DC is unbalanced compared to other powers/spells, or it is not. But more importantly, he never adequately explains why it is ok for psions to be able to pick energy type and save type on the fly. This is a huge advantage, that renders most energy resistances useless. This is one thing I'd change, forcing the psion to pick an element when choosing the power. The condition you're missing is that blasting is, by and large, less effective at high levels. Not just due to resistances, but due to high hit points and increasing enemy saves. The way psionic blasting powers have shown up here is probably the best thing that's happened to blasting since... oh, I don't know. With Energy Missile, you can actually expect a reasonable chance of success at high levels -- which means it's not a dead slot like so many sorcerors who pick only blast spells complain about. (This same argument applies to on-the-fly energy/save selection.) Third, the problem (admittely a small one) with Overchannel is not that is enables the psion to inflict more damage. The problem is that it enables the psion to do things at earlier levels than was intended (my interpretation), for example with powers like Charm and Dominate, or any power that allows new things with augmentations. Yes, but he hurts himself in doing so, and it cost him a feat to do. Practiced Spellcaster does the same thing for multiclass casters. All that this means on the part of the DM is that you have to be ready for a psion to trade a feat and either some hit points or another feat (Talented, on low-level powers only) to pull off stunts a wee bit earlier than you'd expected. If the DM can't adapt to the player's choices, then he's not doing his job. (by the way, Charm and Dominate are both Telepath-only powers, meaning only a telepath can get them without spending -- yes, you guessed it -- EVEN MORE FEATS! And they'd have to be at least two levels higher than the telepath to take these feats! And a telepath, in being a telepath, gives up the ability to take Energy Missile, Astral Construct, Psionic Teleport, Metamorphosis, and many of the great Clairsentience powers. This is what we mean when we mention discipline lists as a balancing factor.) And lastly, yes Schism is too good. Extra actions, even limited ones, are too good. K. 1) Schism is limited to Telepaths. 2) Ever tried playing with it? It's just another way to burn through your points faster and faster. It helps in "Oh my god the DM did NOT just triple our level in CR" encounters, but it's not anywhere near as good as 3.0 haste, Shapechange (Choker), or Shapechange (Chronotyrn). Note that these are all mage-cheeses, by the way. Psionics need another feat (Metamorphic Transfer) and either must be egoists or spend ANOTHER feat to even imitate this, and even then they're limited to 3/day.
DMsDelight 04-22-05, 02:50 PM	I Strongly disagree, a Full BAB, 9/10 manifest levels, d8 hp class applied to a psion is far from situational. The fact that the slayer (or IS depending on the version you're reffering to) gains mind immunity while focused, blast feedback, and a huge favored enemy bonus is pretty much icing on the cake. If eldritch knight were converted for psionics directly (d6 hp full BAB 9/10 manifest levels and an entry requirement of profs with all martial weapons meaning another lost level of psion) it would still be significantly better than the arcane version of eldritch knight because psionics lend themselves better to fighter/caster types than arcane spells do (the ability to cast without failure in any armor alone is huge). This Psionic Knight would make for some very strong character builds and it is purely inferior to the Slayer or IS. And...Thats what I get for not being able to buy the book yet and having to rely on knowledge that I gained secondhand and half remember. DidposableHero 1, DMsDelight 0. Thanks for the correction.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-22-05, 05:50 PM	The SRD should have just excluded the Slayer so I'll give you that one. However the IS has major RP restrictions. For most psi-gish characters I would *much* rather have a Psionic Eldritch Knight than an IS, simply so I don't have to worry about things like the GM throwing a Illithid at my PC in time to take the class. RP restrictions aren't balance restrictions. You're also forgetting about PCs created at 10th level or higher from the beginning. RP requirements are meaningless to these PCs since they're just a part of the characters backstory, and he can just say he killed an illithid. Even characters that do have to kill one, so what? If you die, then you just roll up a new character and try over again. Killing the PCs isn't a balancing factor, nor is the idea that the DM can just deny you from taking it. 3.0 haste doesn't become any more balanced simply because the DM won't let me take it. All entry restrictions do is tend to make the class rare. But when someone does get the class they're still every bit as broken as if the entry restrictions didn't apply. The slayer (illithid or SRD) is without a doubt broken. Just compare it to the eldritch knight. It performs unbelievably well against almost anything with no disadvantages. As for the rest of psionics, I can't be completely sure. One thing I am sure about however is that a conclusion won't be reached through theoretical argument. Theoretical argument is simply about handwaving and that's it. If I can show how a psion is better than a fighter, then people are going to hand wave it beacuse the fighter is underpowered. If someone shows the druid is better than the psion, I'm going to hand wave it because the druid is overpowered. Until people can agree to a reasonable balance point, nothing will ever get solved that way.
Bacris 04-22-05, 07:43 PM	I agree with you, AT. My rebuttal is to play with a psion (not an illithid slayer) and see what you think. I've played a tricked-out Kineticist and an optimized PsyWar and they haven't been overpowered. The Eldritch Knight, IMO, sucks, so most classes should be more powerful, in my opinion. I also agree that the Slayer (both versions) tends toward the overpowered side for a Psion, but not for a PsyWar.
Vharuck 04-22-05, 08:34 PM	Starting at 10th level unbalanced EVERYTHING. Suddenly, you get to handpick your items, spells, feats, etc. Surviving as a psion is tough. Very, very tough. d4 hit die, low BAB, light armor (if you wear medium or heavy, you're spending a lot of your starting gold and limiting how fast you can run from that *** ****ed zombie). It works the same way for wizards. Suddenly, taking little feats is pointless. Spell Mastery? Nah, you got 5 copies of your spellbook. Craft Wondrous Item? Nah, you got to pick and choose everything you got anyways. Toughness? Don't make me laugh.
Nephlite 04-22-05, 08:45 PM	I agree with you, AT. My rebuttal is to play with a psion (not an illithid slayer) and see what you think. I've played a tricked-out Kineticist and an optimized PsyWar and they haven't been overpowered. The Eldritch Knight, IMO, sucks, so most classes should be more powerful, in my opinion. I also agree that the Slayer (both versions) tends toward the overpowered side for a Psion, but not for a PsyWar. Would a Divine Eldritch knight be good (sure you don't have arcane problems but you get bonus to manifestor and Bab +1/level)? RP restrictions aren't balance restrictions. You're also forgetting about PCs created at 10th level or higher from the beginning. RP requirements are meaningless to these PCs since they're just a part of the characters backstory, and he can just say he killed an illithid. Even characters that do have to kill one, so what? If you die, then you just roll up a new character and try over again. Killing the PCs isn't a balancing factor, nor is the idea that the DM can just deny you from taking it. 3.0 haste doesn't become any more balanced simply because the DM won't let me take it. Paladin is balanced by roleplay restrictions, thus his code. Clerics aren't balanced much by rp but Clerics are overpowered because WOTC thought no one would close a balanced Cleric and heal people as a living. Um, the DMG says when you roll up a new chasracter it should be one level lowering than highest level character in party. Raising has same effect I assume lol. So you get weaker each time you try to kill a Illithid and die or create a new character.
RadicalTaoist 04-22-05, 09:19 PM	This needs to be put in the first post. It is pointless to compare the Illithid Slayer to the Eldritch Knight because the Eldritch Knight sucks. A PrC that is made obsolete by a 6th level spell (Tenser's Transformation) is a waste of time. Now, divine gishes wouldn't need an Eldritch Knight as clerics get Divine Power as a 4th level spell, and Druids will be making their most powerful attacks as natural attacks, which don't become more numerous with higher BAB. Of course, that didn't stop them from giving the BoED the Fist of Raziel with its d10 HD
Sir Elton 04-23-05, 12:25 AM	Actually . . . The Eldritch Knight is an impotent example of a prestige class. I'll add it to part of the FAQ, since I'm the only one that can change that post. If it is okay with Bacris.
Bacris 04-23-05, 12:35 AM	Sure thing. I like the format you used.
Red_Decker 04-23-05, 03:28 AM	RP restrictions aren't balance restrictions. You're also forgetting about PCs created at 10th level or higher from the beginning. RP requirements are meaningless to these PCs since they're just a part of the characters backstory, and he can just say he killed an illithid. Even characters that do have to kill one, so what? If you die, then you just roll up a new character and try over again. Killing the PCs isn't a balancing factor, nor is the idea that the DM can just deny you from taking it. 3.0 haste doesn't become any more balanced simply because the DM won't let me take it. All entry restrictions do is tend to make the class rare. But when someone does get the class they're still every bit as broken as if the entry restrictions didn't apply. The slayer (illithid or SRD) is without a doubt broken. Just compare it to the eldritch knight. It performs unbelievably well against almost anything with no disadvantages. As for the rest of psionics, I can't be completely sure. One thing I am sure about however is that a conclusion won't be reached through theoretical argument. Theoretical argument is simply about handwaving and that's it. If I can show how a psion is better than a fighter, then people are going to hand wave it beacuse the fighter is underpowered. If someone shows the druid is better than the psion, I'm going to hand wave it because the druid is overpowered. Until people can agree to a reasonable balance point, nothing will ever get solved that way. In City of the Spider Queen, I played a Drow PsyWar6/IS4 [used LA buy off from Unearthed Arcana] and he got killed by a fricken giant spider. It wasn't even demonic, just a huge dumb spider. He was the party fighter, but I didn't have enough PP to keep him going. I was also using Empathic Transfer Hostile all the time just to stay alive and in the end this failed. The PsyWar/IS is not broken, powerful? Yes. Broken, I'm sorry no it's not. You tried anything Mind affecting against him and he was great even with a 16 Wisdom [my monks at the same level average 18-20]. Armor is over rated. I've gotten better AC out of Monks and rangers then I ever have out of fighters, these guys are supposedly low AC characters. A wizard with extended Mage Armor with a few Shield spells in reserve is gonna be fine... In fact I am currently making my first wizard. I love the guy and I haven't even played him yet. He's an Wizard/EK going to go for Argent Savant as well. Force spells are great never worry about Energy Resistance, or Incorporeal things because mage armor works against that and force damage spells work great against them as well. Did you guys forget about force spells? http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Vanamir 04-23-05, 06:46 AM	. . . The Eldritch Knight, IMO, sucks, so most classes should be more powerful, in my opinion. I also agree that the Slayer (both versions) tends toward the overpowered side for a Psion, but not for a PsyWar. Hmm if you view most classes as underpowered or at least even weak you are invalidating all your arguments so far. These 'weak' classes are the yardstick against everything has to be balanced. So this discussion becomes rather moot since your are not not compairing psionics against the power level of the standard classes but against what you personally and in contratiction of the rules as written consider what the average power level should have been. :rolleyes: Besides that the EK is definately not an underpowered PrC. It is horribly bland flavourwise since it is purely what i call a 'fixer-class': A PrC that is designed to work around the disadvantages of the current multi-class system for spellcasters. The problem is that most people have the annoying notion that PrCs are designed to make characters more powerful rather than just giving them more focus when compared to the standard classes .
Vanamir 04-23-05, 06:54 AM	This needs to be put in the first post. It is pointless to compare the Illithid Slayer to the Eldritch Knight because the Eldritch Knight sucks. A PrC that is made obsolete by a 6th level spell (Tenser's Transformation) is a waste of time. Now, divine gishes wouldn't need an Eldritch Knight as clerics get Divine Power as a 4th level spell, and Druids will be making their most powerful attacks as natural attacks, which don't become more numerous with higher BAB. Of course, that didn't stop them from giving the BoED the Fist of Raziel with its d10 HD You could argue that almost any class can be made obsolete with the right selection of spells. And the BoED is hardly a good starting point for balanced rules. Even munchkins agree that is on the rather overpowered side of D&D. Besides that keep the letter size down. It doesn't make your arguments any more or less valid and is not comfortable to read.
Sir Elton 04-23-05, 08:26 AM	I agree with Vanamir on this last point. Making the letter size too big can make it hard to read, even though you are emphasizing your point. :D
Bacris 04-23-05, 09:33 AM	Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Ranger, Paladin, Archmage, Mystic Theurge, and more etc... are all not underpowered from my personal experience. The Eldritch Knight, if you're not playing Core-Only, is weak compared to most other options. As is a straight-fighter built by the average player. (There are exceptions to this, such as Snow's builds) That doesn't invalidate my argument because I view a small handful of core classes as underpowered with or without psionics. Not everything is balanced equally in core. Half-elves are weak compared to dwarves, and I don't mean strength-wise. Humans are one of the best races for optimizing because of their extra skill points and bonus feat. If you bring up an argument with a weak class, I'm going to say such. Notice that I don't say that of the Wizard. I don't think the Wizard is weak. The wizard can actually be built to be one of most powerful characters in a game, and quite easily at that. I just don't personally like the flavor of the wizard. EDIT - Human = race, not class, oops
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-23-05, 12:14 PM	Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue, Ranger, Paladin, Archmage, Mystic Theurge, and more etc... are all not underpowered from my personal experience. The Eldritch Knight, if you're not playing Core-Only, is weak compared to most other options. As is a straight-fighter built by the average player. (There are exceptions to this, such as Snow's builds) Since you agree the paladin is balanced, I'd advise using him as your balance point. A paladin 20 versus a psion 20 or psywar 20. The advantage to the palaidn is that his spells arent' a big deal (and they're a small list) so you don't get into many problems. The paladin also has few selectable abilities beyond his weak spelll list, making a paladin 20 fairly standardized. Further, he doesn't have very many abuseable uses, unlike casters who are loaded with them and even the rogue can abuse UMD for spells like wraith strike. The paladin is a good point of reference since everyone knows what a paladin 20 actually is. I don't advise using primary casters as a balance point, because there are far too many options that each has, and they tend to be based on lots of noncore material. Casters also can run the gamut of power, depending on who is playing them. A blaster evoker may look underpowered, and then you've got another caster abusing the heck out of astral projection and shapechange and being a virtual god. Nobody is really sure what you're talking about when you talk about a wizard or a cleric. So pick something that isn't a primary caster as your balance point, and work from there. Then when you say "The XPH isn't overpowered" you can actually specify what you're comparing it to. Otherwise, there's no point in having a balance debate. If you want to show the XPH is balanced you've got to say sometihng like "a psion is weaker or about equal to a paladin of equal level". Given that you think the paladin is balanced, we can then go and analyze that statement without worrying about some people bringing up the core fighter and others bringing up the core druid.
Bacris 04-23-05, 12:46 PM	A Psion vs a Paladin is hard to compare. One is a divine fighter, the other is a "caster-esque" type. However, balance-wise. Paladin - full BAB, d10 HD, Turning, Smite, minor spell abilities, mount Psion - 1/2 BAB, d4 HD, bonus feats, more powerful casting / manifesting ability Paladins that take advantage of charging-type feats + lances can be devastating in open-range combat. Also against Undead, which Psions have an exceptionally low power against due to Mind-Affecting being worthless, the Paladin will be quite powerful. The paladin, relying less on buffs for defense, is more likely to be ready to rush in to battle immediately. The Psion, on the other hand, can be built in a much more versatile fashion due to more options. He will have a lower to-hit, which is partly compensated by not needing to always roll attack rolls or using touch attacks. Early in his career he will be quite weak against enemies and rely strongly on the paladin for protection, otherwise his manifestations are likely to get interrupted and he is likely to get killed. Later, if caught off-guard, he is at quite a disadvantage, but if given time to prepare, can be a major asset.
Sir Elton 04-23-05, 02:03 PM	:rolleyes: I guess this is the best thread for a balance debate. Psions are different from Paladins. They'd use different tactics, different skills, and see things differently in a tactical situation. In a team of adventurers, psions support fighter types by using long distance casting or troubleshooting. They are closer to rogues in a fight than a paladin. Powerful psions can dominate or confuse foes, make people see things, and provide trouble. Egoists can buff themselves, kineticists through artillery, seers see things, shapers make things, nomads can make a run for it, and telepaths shine outside of battle. When playing psions or psychic warriors, and soulknives and wilders, you have to think like the X-Men psions and how they use their powers. If comics are beyond you, you can watch Akira and other Japanese Anime to see how they operate. Psions usually shine outside of combat. They make great spies, and can get into places where the rogue can't. A psion can get into the upper echelons of an enemy government nation posing as a courtier; some place a rogue would have a difficult time infiltrating without hard work and a lot of double talk.
Lina_Inverse 04-23-05, 07:31 PM	I don't advise using primary casters as a balance point, because there are far too many options that each has, and they tend to be based on lots of noncore material. Casters also can run the gamut of power, depending on who is playing them. A blaster evoker may look underpowered, and then you've got another caster abusing the heck out of astral projection and shapechange and being a virtual god. Nobody is really sure what you're talking about when you talk about a wizard or a cleric. the thing is,if we use a non-caster as a balence point.OF COURSE PSIONS ARE OVERPOWERED.because in D&D spells trump everything. so compared to paladins yes there overpowered.no question. compared to wizards/clerics/druid?there slightly below the wizard,and still not touching the cleric or druid. and psywarriors,are a weak class.why not just be a cleric? so psions are the most balenced except perhaps sorcs of the full level casters in d20.they have less spells/day and less broken cheese.there still amoung the most powerful charecters in the game,but they dont inherently make other charecters worthless.(HUGE diffrence) except blaster sorcs.but sorcs got all kinds of design flaws,that arent in the psion and thats the real diffrence between them.
DisposableHero_ 04-24-05, 12:21 AM	I don't advise using primary casters as a balance point, because there are far too many options that each has, and they tend to be based on lots of noncore material. Casters also can run the gamut of power, depending on who is playing them. A blaster evoker may look underpowered, and then you've got another caster abusing the heck out of astral projection and shapechange and being a virtual god. Nobody is really sure what you're talking about when you talk about a wizard or a cleric. Well its hard to get a decent comparison because the psion is in its nature a primary caster, and subject to the same restrictions on its balance discussion as a primary caster. There are a lot of ways to build a psion, and a lot more ways to play a psion. Its very difficult to judge the power of a Psion 20 build, because Psion 20 tells you close to nothing about the nature of that character. Restricting solely to combat scenarios, there are buffer psions, blaster psions, disabler psions, troubleshooter psions, and thats just putting them into very broad catagories that leave out the subtle aspects that make characters powerful. I've gone so far as to build psion 20s around being a martial artist, the variety is limitless, so the only comparisons that really work a very general mechanical ones (equivalents in casting longevity and efficiency, power/spell selections) and by nature, those only have analogues among Core D&D's primary casters.
RadicalTaoist 04-24-05, 12:44 AM	Might I also nominate the Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, and Monk as balanced classes? Hard to compare in all cases, but if we do need material that is neither too strong nor too weak, it's there. I'd add the Sorceror, but that class is poorly designed.
RadicalTaoist 04-24-05, 01:30 AM	You could argue that almost any class can be made obsolete with the right selection of spells. When you give up at least two caster levels to gain the combat survivability of a Bard and a far-from-overpowered spell is a better option by far, you can call the Eldritch Knight obsolete. Rage (the spell) doesn't make Barbarians obsolete. Nightstalker's Transformation (from Complete Adventurer) doesn't make the Daggerspell Mage or Arcane Trickster obsolete. Mental Pinnacle doesn't make the Cerebremancer obsolete.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-24-05, 02:42 AM	Well its hard to get a decent comparison because the psion is in its nature a primary caster, and subject to the same restrictions on its balance discussion as a primary caster. There are a lot of ways to build a psion, and a lot more ways to play a psion. This is actually why it's important to compare the psion to a class without a heck of a lot of flexibility. Because you are going to have lots and lots of options when comparing the psion to anything. If you compare it to another caster, which has lots and lots of options, you have far too many options to even remotely consider for a balance debate, and nothing ever gets done. Casters are a poor center for determining balance because there's so much they can do and they have too many uses. If you want a balance point you need a relatively simple class to compare. Even the fighter is a poor choice because he has so many choices with his bonus feats. A barbarian is actually the optimal choice, assuming people find the barbarian to be balanced. A paladin is second best.
Lina_Inverse 04-24-05, 12:25 PM	Might I also nominate the Barbarian, Bard, Rogue, Ranger, and Monk as balanced classes? Hard to compare in all cases, but if we do need material that is neither too strong nor too weak, it's there. I'd add the Sorceror, but that class is poorly designed. monk?monk is weaker than a core fighter.you may nominate rogues and barbarians.which are the closest the game has to balenced(about mid curve power wise,about right to CRs etc.)
Sir Elton 04-24-05, 12:52 PM	I guess I'll have to test that with Neverwinter Nights.
RadicalTaoist 04-24-05, 01:48 PM	monk?monk is weaker than a core fighter. In toe to toe combat, yes. In tactical combat, they each have separate strengths. The monk can do other things the fighter can't.
Bacris 04-24-05, 03:57 PM	The monk can be quite an asset. Pure damage output, maybe not top-notch, but that shouldn't be the only measuring stick to determine player balance.
Alienfreak 04-24-05, 05:03 PM	Comparing Fighters to anything won't work in the traditional way. You can't simply compare an Fighter with an Wizard. They both have strengths and weaknesses, but are different as day and night can be.
Lina_Inverse 04-24-05, 05:34 PM	In toe to toe combat, yes. In tactical combat, they each have separate strengths. The monk can do other things the fighter can't. like what? tactics hes strictly worse than a fighter.as he lacks a decent BAB notice all the tactical abilitys require you to HIT stuff.and clearly worse than the mages(wall of force anyone?). his AC is pathetic unless you have 2 18s,and that only EQUALS the AC of platemail armor. he cant actully hurt mages(despite being billed as a caster killer) and he sucks at punching things. but anyways,this isnt a disscussion on monks. if you want to compare to a balenced class. barbarian and rogue both are top billing for balenced. and ill easily admit psions make mince meat of both classes.however so do wizards/clerics/druids moreso and actully can make many charecters worthless in there supposed roles(one of the big things psions arent as good at).so youll need to complain about THEM first.
RadicalTaoist 04-24-05, 07:18 PM	like what? tactics hes strictly worse than a fighter.as he lacks a decent BAB notice all the tactical abilitys require you to HIT stuff.and clearly worse than the mages(wall of force anyone?). his AC is pathetic unless you have 2 18s,and that only EQUALS the AC of platemail armor. he cant actully hurt mages(despite being billed as a caster killer) and he sucks at punching things. but anyways,this isnt a disscussion on monks. Indeed it isn't. Make this claim on one of the monk threads in the Classes board, I'll deal with it there.
The Axeman 04-24-05, 08:32 PM	I expected more from the original post. Outlining how a psionicist would be unbalanced doesn't exactly strengthen your argument. Almost every single one of your "myths" had a conditional modifier that made it true at some point (mainly hinging on feats). Which, you would understand I hope, that if there is any way for a player to exploit a balance issue they will find it and do it (well most would).
Vharuck 04-24-05, 08:38 PM	I expected more from the original post. Outlining how a psionicist would be unbalanced doesn't exactly strengthen your argument. Almost every single one of your "myths" had a conditional modifier that made it true at some point (mainly hinging on feats). Which, you would understand I hope, that if there is any way for a player to exploit a balance issue they will find it and do it (well most would). OK. I'm going to make an example of this reply. Poeple, please, in the future, when discussing the balance of psionics, please use examples. Do not be so general that nobody can make no reply, only because we have NO idea what you are specifically talking about.
Bacris 04-24-05, 08:48 PM	The reason each of those myths seems like a balance problem is because those were the biggest arguments that were on the board for why the system is imbalanced. Each of those myths came from at least 1-2 threads of people complaining about that specific issue. So each became a myth. Some of them are legitimate - psychic reformation, for instance - some of them are not - 17 pp 1st level powers being more powerful than a 1st level spell, for instance. They are not supposed to be all the balance points of psionics. They are the biggest points that have been made as to why the psion (and XPH) is overpowered and counterpoints. Some of them bear toning down. Many do not. A couple badly worded / created examples does not make a bad book or system.
The Axeman 04-24-05, 09:20 PM	I don't have my books here with me so I'll try to give some general examples. I like to keep things simple so as not to be accused of "baffling with bs" as someone might say about the original post :P . I'm going to mention a few very basic things, acknowledging that most of the issues arise more drastically with the addition of a few psionic feats. In general: Lack of availability of a power doesn't make it balanced. Psionicists can use any power they know, at any time, and can enhance it at will. So they already have the edge over other spellcasters simply because they can up the damage and/or DC at will, while not having to pick their powers before encounters. Not to mention overchanneling. I know what you'll say: "But they will run out of power points and wizards have spells/day": this isn't really a good enough excuse considering my group "usually" only has one encounter/day and almost never more than 2. I'm not sure what the "Canon" number of encounters/day is but I'm sure it's not that many. I also believe the psionicists have mechanisms for lowering power point cost, effectively giving them more powers/day. There is no similar mechanisms for other spellcasters, who must use a spell slot if they want any extra spells/slots. A familiar that is tiny enough to get into just about anywhere, has unfettered movement in almost any terrain, can't be suprised or avoided. These are a few at the forefront of my mind I'll post more later. I have a number of others in mind but without checking the books I don't want to post them yet.
Tsuul 04-24-05, 09:36 PM	So they already have the edge over other spellcasters simply because they can up the damage and/or DC at will, while not having to pick their powers before encounters.False. A sorcerer can do the same with the aquisition of one feat; Heighten Spell. The sorcerer has a slight advantage considering ONLY THE ELEMENTS OF THIS ARGUMENT without adding anything else because the sorcerer can choose to not heighten a spell and its damage scales for free and the spell slot cost is drasticaly reduced.
The Axeman 04-24-05, 09:42 PM	False. A sorcerer can do the same with the aquisition of one feat; Heighten Spell. The sorcerer has a slight advantage considering ONLY THE ELEMENTS OF THIS ARGUMENT without adding anything else because the sorcerer can choose to not heighten a spell and its damage scales for free and the spell slot cost is drasticaly reduced. Exactly the point. They must spend a feat to do what a psionicist can do at any time. Not only that but the sorcs feat costs extra spell slots.
Tsuul 04-24-05, 09:47 PM	Exactly the point. They must spend a feat to do what a psionicist can do at any time. Not only that but the sorcs feat costs extra spell slots. Doesn't that directly contradict the point you made a few posts back? Almost every single one of your "myths" had a conditional modifier that made it true at some point (mainly hinging on feats). Which, you would understand I hope, that if there is any way for a player to exploit a balance issue they will find it and do it (well most would). And when psions up their damage/DCs they "up their spellslot cost" as well. [edit: Either feat costs can balance things or they can't. The best I can offer you is a picture of the cake before you ate it. /:edit]
Bacris 04-24-05, 09:49 PM	Canon encounters per day is 3-4 of equal CR, 1-2 of CR 1-2 higher than the party, or 5-6 of 1-2 CR lower, or a mix therein.
Vharuck 04-24-05, 09:52 PM	I don't have my books here with me so I'll try to give some general examples. I like to keep things simple so as not to be accused of "baffling with bs" as someone might say about the original post :P . I'm going to mention a few very basic things, acknowledging that most of the issues arise more drastically with the addition of a few psionic feats. In general: Lack of availability of a power doesn't make it balanced. Psionicists can use any power they know, at any time, and can enhance it at will. So they already have the edge over other spellcasters simply because they can up the damage and/or DC at will, while not having to pick their powers before encounters. Not to mention overchanneling. Here's something in response: for a power to do more damage, a psion MUST spend more pp. A wizard's fireball they got at lvl 5 will do 10d6 damage at level ten and cost the same resources: one third-level slot. A psion has to use an equivalent of a 5th level slot (10 pp) to do 10d6 damage. If he only spends 5 pp (a 3rd level slot), he only deals 5d6. Psions don't get scaling, but instead have to pay for everything. And yes, using an equivalent of 5th level slot will make the save DC equivalent to a wizard with the same ability score using a 5th level slot. I know what you'll say: "But they will run out of power points and wizards have spells/day": this isn't really a good enough excuse considering my group "usually" only has one encounter/day and almost never more than 2. I'm not sure what the "Canon" number of encounters/day is but I'm sure it's not that many. I also believe the psionicists have mechanisms for lowering power point cost, effectively giving them more powers/day. There is no similar mechanisms for other spellcasters, who must use a spell slot if they want any extra spells/slots. OK, let me repeat: if you do something that the game wasn't designed for, yes the game does not account for it. How are you only allowing 1 encounter per day? I have no idea how people only get this. A familiar that is tiny enough to get into just about anywhere, has unfettered movement in almost any terrain, can't be suprised or avoided. Oh yeah, that thing psions gotta spend a feat on and wizards get for the low price of 100 gold? Of course those should be equal.
Tempest Stormwind 04-24-05, 09:53 PM	Lack of availability of a power doesn't make it balanced. Not necessarily that power in and of itself... but the fact that you give up all the other ones that are that powerful. A psion cannot manifest more than two of Energy Missile, Energy Stun, Astral Construct, Metamorphosis (normal or greater), Teleport, Fly, Psychic Chirugery, Mindlink, or Remote Viewing unless they spend feats -- and they can never manifest all of the above, nor can they ever manifest two 9th level discipline powers. Any wizard, sorceror, cleric, druid, etc. can do all of that with no feats. THAT is what the restrictor is. The cost of getting Energy Missile, say, is a precious feat for most, or the need to spend feats to get other staple powers for the kineticist. Psionicists can use any power they know, at any time, and can enhance it at will. So they already have the edge over other spellcasters simply because they can up the damage and/or DC at will, while not having to pick their powers before encounters. Not to mention overchanneling. This was covered above. In addition, upping the damage and DC by spending more power points sounds suspiciously like upping the damage and DC by casting a higher level spell. Oh, look, they're the SAME -- except where spells like Spell Turning and Globe of Invulnerability come into play, where the higher-level spell goes through them but the lower-level power (which was augmented to cost the same as the higher level spell) doesn't. This doesn't rely on Heighten Spell either, although that makes things easier for the mage. I know what you'll say: "But they will run out of power points and wizards have spells/day": this isn't really a good enough excuse considering my group "usually" only has one encounter/day and almost never more than 2. I'm not sure what the "Canon" number of encounters/day is but I'm sure it's not that many. I also believe the psionicists have mechanisms for lowering power point cost, effectively giving them more powers/day. There is no similar mechanisms for other spellcasters, who must use a spell slot if they want any extra spells/slots. It's actually 4 on average of equal CR, if you'll read the DMG. Your group is already bending the power curve toward all forms of caster by keeping it to 1 or 2. Try playing a game with about twelve encounters of lower CR than your party. Your fighters will look damn strong in the end while your casters are all likely to be shooting crossbows. Meanwhile, the 1-encounter-per-day thing is not a good indicator of the game balance either for exactly the same reason that arena combat is considered "abstract" -- and why casters dominate both. A familiar that is tiny enough to get into just about anywhere, has unfettered movement in almost any terrain, can't be suprised or avoided. At the cost of a feat. Furthermore, it CAN be surprised and avoided quite easily. The unfettered movement isn't true either -- he has a land and a climb speed to start, and later a fly speed. Familiars naturally have fly, land, climb, or swim speeds depnding on what they are, and many have more than one. Next, you'll notice that the Raven familiar can carry a command-word activated item and use it, while any familiar can wear magic items, often without any special design considerations (see Tome and Blood). Not true in either case for a psicrystal. Also, the big issue with familiars is that they are Easily Killable Bundles of Your XP. Well, the psicrystal doesn't heal on its own. EVER. These are a few at the forefront of my mind I'll post more later. I have a number of others in mind but without checking the books I don't want to post them yet. I could list off three times as many balance concerns with any full caster except the Sorceror, or with the artificer. And that's without opening my books. It would help if you considered the flipside of your arguments before trolling them here.
Alienfreak 04-25-05, 07:47 AM	Exactly the point. They must spend a feat to do what a psionicist can do at any time. Not only that but the sorcs feat costs extra spell slots. Yep. It costs higher Spell Slots, just like the Psion uses more PPs. Transfers pretty well, doesnt it? Lack of availability of a power doesn't make it balanced. It does not make an power in itself balanced. But it balances the whole character concept. For example well take an Cleric: With the right Domain he has Shapechange, which is one of the most powerfull spells out there. You might say: Hey thats so fkn ubar! But if he would have choosen another domain he would have gained another strength (probably a good ability or so). Sure there are useless Domains out there. But for getting something powerful you will have to abandon other things. If you want that powerful power, you wont even get normal fly or teleport. Or you can use Schism. That makes it balanced. I know what you'll say: "But they will run out of power points and wizards have spells/day": this isn't really a good enough excuse considering my group "usually" only has one encounter/day and almost never more than 2. I'm not sure what the "Canon" number of encounters/day is but I'm sure it's not that many. I also believe the psionicists have mechanisms for lowering power point cost, effectively giving them more powers/day. There is no similar mechanisms for other spellcasters, who must use a spell slot if they want any extra spells/slots. You can Split up Spell Slots via Feat. But if you are having any problems with only 1 Encounter per day i still think a wizard that has in mind that he has only 1 encounter that day will most certainly also go "nova". No big difference here. A familiar that is tiny enough to get into just about anywhere, has unfettered movement in almost any terrain, can't be suprised or avoided. 1. You will have to spend a Feat for it. 2. Except that an floating crystal is somewhat ... conspicuous? An Cat running around or an Raven that sits on a tree isnt something too obvious i think. 3. Ravens are the most powerful Familiars out there. Give them good Magic items with an voice activation. The perfect cohort.
Sir Elton 04-25-05, 10:00 AM	Psionicists can use any power they know, at any time, and can enhance it at will. So they already have the edge over other spellcasters simply because they can up the damage and/or DC at will, while not having to pick their powers before encounters. Not to mention overchanneling. Not exactly at "any time," virtually is the modifier here. And that is part of the flavor of the psion, a part of its "charm." A psion's powers doesn't have free scaling, though, like a druid's or a wizard's spells. A wizard's magic automatically improves (scales in damage) as he gains in experience. The Empower Spell metamagic feat improves the wizard's magic that much more. There is little he has to do, except if you have a rule that every spell cast costs the wizard a bit of his strength (i.e. causes subdual damage). Psions have to expend power points to cause a supernatural effect. The more they expend, the more impotent they will become later. Plus they have to consciously scale their powers to do more damage. A good psion player describes his activities in this way: "I use mind thrust against my foe, and since he has hurt my companions, I'm going to pump more force into my power as a reflection of my Righteous Indignation!" As a result, he expends enough power points for his psion to do considerable damage with his mind thrust. However, through that action, he has made himself much more powerless for the next encounter. A wizard player only has to say, "I'm mad, I'm going to cast a broiling fireball against my foe." And he ends up doing 7d6 damage, for free, against his foe. No detrimental effect to the wizard, but one bad effect to the psion.
Sir Elton 04-27-05, 09:29 AM	I'd better :bump: this.
Omega13 04-28-05, 07:20 PM	Ironically, if we didn't prove to everyone that the XPH was balanced, the debate would continue and we wouldn't have to keep bumping.
Vharuck 04-28-05, 07:53 PM	I see this as a nice eye to the storm or the peace after a war where we should advance the cause of psionics. Or shuffle papers and prepare comebacks for the next person who claims that a lvl 1 psion spending 5 pp on one power is so broken. :D
Riznar 04-28-05, 08:17 PM	Maybe they're just having mercy on the kittens...
Sir Elton 04-29-05, 10:55 AM	Yeah, that's it. They are having mercy on the Kittens.
Questions 04-30-05, 05:32 AM	Let's start this off right; I really like psions and I want to use them in my game (postscript: I don't use any expanded books as of now, and don't intend to, lets please act as comparing the Psion book to the Core books) I don't favor Sorcerer's Wizards or Psions - I like them all & want to compare them, just confused how they're equal and would like some feedback on how I think they are not equal, and, well, how to make them / why they already are equivalent. My Belief: Psions are most alike Sorcerers because they have a limited amount of choices and can change them immediately as desired. Here's my questions: I. Psions get more options than Sorc. A) Psions can wear armor & shield: 1) Psions get class bonus feats & can specialize, the Sorc does not (I think I may have read the Sorc is actually able to specialize in a school in 3.5, but can't find where, so I am going with can NOT, less someone could please point me to that article in the core books). 2) Heavy Armor + Heavy Shield= 2 Feats to gain 12AC -10 movement or Chain Shirt & Heavy Shield= + 6 to AC, no movement penaly (you MIGHT get armor check penalties for swimming etc, but it's an option). 3) A Sorc gets Mage Armor & Shield (which probably even has an equivelant for Psions, but who cares, if you can get it for free with 2 feats and already gain bonus feats), this takes 2 ROUNDS AND 2 SPELLS to cast to achieve, EVERY SINGLE COMBAT, essentially giving the Psion a 2 SPELLS AND ROUNDS EVERY time he is in combat for 2 feats. 4) How does this compare since it's not even an option to the Sorc or Wiz. B) Psions have more diversity than even the most diverse SPONTANEOUS spellcaster in the core books, the Sorc. 1) Compared to the Sorc, they get more powers/spells to choose and get more diversity in their usage... 2) Can power a lvl 1 spell into a lvl 20 spell. (I have noted this IS easier to protect against than most higher lvl Sorc spells, IN THE CASE THAT, you are currently affected by some form of spell lvl immunity.) 3) I see it as the Psion can essentially metamagic any power immediately versus the 1 round it takes the Sorc to due so. Even if I am incorrect & they can't meta them immediately... 4) Isn't empowering a 1st lvl spell by adding power points, in itself, a FREE empowerment feat. II. Need I. answered first, lol! Please, do not attack my questions, I WANT to use and LIKE Psions.
De Batavier 04-30-05, 08:18 AM	Let's start this off right; I really like psions and I want to use them in my game (postscript: I don't use any expanded books as of now, and don't intend to, lets please act as comparing the Psion book to the Core books) I don't favor Sorcerer's Wizards or Psions - I like them all & want to compare them, just confused how they're equal and would like some feedback on how I think they are not equal, and, well, how to make them / why they already are equivalent. My Belief: Psions are most alike Sorcerers because they have a limited amount of choices and can change them immediately as desired. Here's my questions: I. Psions get more options than Sorc. A) Psions can wear armor & shield: 1) Psions get class bonus feats & can specialize, the Sorc does not (I think I may have read the Sorc is actually able to specialize in a school in 3.5, but can't find where, so I am going with can NOT, less someone could please point me to that article in the core books). 2) Heavy Armor + Heavy Shield= 2 Feats to gain 12AC -10 movement or Chain Shirt & Heavy Shield= + 6 to AC, no movement penaly (you MIGHT get armor check penalties for swimming etc, but it's an option). 3) A Sorc gets Mage Armor & Shield (which probably even has an equivelant for Psions, but who cares, if you can get it for free with 2 feats and already gain bonus feats), this takes 2 ROUNDS AND 2 SPELLS to cast to achieve, EVERY SINGLE COMBAT, essentially giving the Psion a 2 SPELLS AND ROUNDS EVERY time he is in combat for 2 feats. 4) How does this compare since it's not even an option to the Sorc or Wiz. B) Psions have more diversity than even the most diverse SPONTANEOUS spellcaster in the core books, the Sorc. 1) Compared to the Sorc, they get more powers/spells to choose and get more diversity in their usage... 2) Can power a lvl 1 spell into a lvl 20 spell. (I have noted this IS easier to protect against than most higher lvl Sorc spells, IN THE CASE THAT, you are currently affected by some form of spell lvl immunity.) 3) I see it as the Psion can essentially metamagic any power immediately versus the 1 round it takes the Sorc to due so. Even if I am incorrect & they can't meta them immediately... 4) Isn't empowering a 1st lvl spell by adding power points, in itself, a FREE empowerment feat. II. Need I. answered first, lol! Please, do not attack my questions, I WANT to use and LIKE Psions. It are valid questions. The lack of arcane spell failure is certainly a boon for psions compared to classes that do have that problem. Though keep in mind that all divine casters also have no problem with arcane spell failure. And the sorcerer and psion are both classes that don't have to prepare spells, so in that point they seem comparable. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that it are different classes. They are not the same. Thing work differently for them. If you compare things that are different, you will notice things in which they are different. Which you did. I also don't understand why you don't use the psion (because you say you want to). Is there someone who won't let you use psions, DM? What is preventing you from liking them if you want to like them? An other thing i noticed is that your points 1.1 and 2.3 would also count in comparing wizards to sorcerers. Which might indicate that the sorcerer is the "problem" class and not the psion or wizard. The cleric, also a casting class, not only doesn't suffer from arcane spell failure, he also actualy gains free use of armor. A psion that doesn't want to suffer penalties must invest feats (which i certainly wouldn't recommend). So you could say that the cleric is even worse than a psion if you compare that certain aspect of the class with the sorcerer. A psions bonus feats must be spent on psionic stuff: psionic feats, psionic item creation and metapsionics IIRC. So they can't, even if they wanted to, spent them on armor or shield feats. I hope this helped you with your questions and cleared some things up. If someone is preventing you from playing psions, based on balance issues, keep in mind that all classes have things in which they shine. A psion is good, very good, in using all of his casting ability in a short time. After that he will not excell at most of the tasks the DM throws at him. Also if one must make a list of power a class has (whether this is correct or not) one will always come on top of it. If it is not the psion (i don't think it is the most powerfull class) than an other will be on top. If you banned all classes on top, you would end up with only one class (some would say fighter ;) ) Happy gaming. :cool:
Bacris 04-30-05, 09:31 AM	First, the Psion is closest to the Wizard, not the sorcerer. Bonus feats, primary stat, and spell / power level progression all match. So comparing it to the sorcerer isn't exactly accurate. Next Heavy Armor + Heavy Shield= 2 Feats to gain Incorrect. That's 4 feats. Heavy Armor requires Light and Medium armor proficiency feats to take. Wizards and psions have the same armor / shield proficiencies - none. They have to multiclass - thereby losing manifester levels - or spend feats to become proficient. There is an option to take low Armor Check penalty armors, but the Wizard / Sorcerer has this option, too. Really, I'm not a fan of ASF and think it should be removed entirely, but it's not nearly as strong as you're making it sound because you don't have all the correct information. B) Psions have more diversity than even the most diverse SPONTANEOUS spellcaster in the core books, the Sorc. Your problem is the sorcerer, not the psion. As I said, look at the mechanics of Psion, Wizard and Sorcerer. The Psion has the Wizard's spell / power level progression, feat progression, and same base stat. None of this matches with the sorcerer. IMO, the psion is the way the wizard SHOULD have been developed.
Bacris 04-30-05, 09:34 AM	Oh, and lastly: ) Isn't empowering a 1st lvl spell by adding power points, in itself, a FREE empowerment feat. No. Empower Power costs 2 pp and focus. Augmenting can take anywhere from 1pp to 22pp. That seems to be a lot more costly. You're then spending from 2pp to 23pp for one power. Empower also scales in a curve, whereas augmentation scales linearly. After 6th level, it's more cost effective to use the Empower Power feat than to use straight augmentation.
DisposableHero_ 04-30-05, 12:41 PM	Psions are most alike Sorcerers because they have a limited amount of choices and can change them immediately as desired. While psions are in essence a spontaneous caster, there are not prepared casters when it comes to psionics, thus the psion is better compared to a wizard. Not counting 0th level spells, a wizard's spells per day converted into the equivalent power point cost he runs pretty much parallel with a psion for casting longevity. A sorcerer however runs well above the per day castings/mainfestings of those two, ending with about 200 equivalent power points (around 90 spell levels) ahead of both the psion and wizard. This is why most people here believe the wizard is a much better comparison than the psion (and if you ever play a psion, you will quickly find out how much power point conservation matters). If you insist on comparing the psion to the sorcerer, then lets get a few points straight before we start. 1) A sorcerer gets around 50% more total spell levels/power points than a psion does, meaning they can last 50% longer spell slinging than a psion, or they can discharge 50% more spells in a combat while lasting the same amount of time. If a player is conserving his casting abilities over the course of the day to remain useful to the party at all times, then a sorcerer will be putting alot more into each fight than a psion will. 2) Spells scale for free, powers don't. A sorcerer gets a scaled effect with his spells based on his caster level, a psion gets scaled effects on his powers based on how many points he spends. No one posting complaints about psionics seems to realize how big a difference this is. Example: Energy Ray vs Scorching Ray. Energy Ray, ML 3, 2nd level power equivalent = 3d6+3 Scorching Ray, CL 3, 2nd level spell = 4d6 Energy Ray, ML 7, 4th level power equivalent = 7d6+7 Sorching Ray, CL 7, 2nd level spell = 8d6 Empowered Scorching Ray, CL 7, 4th level spell equivalent = 12d6 Energy Ray, ML 11, 6th level power equivalent = 11d6+11 Sorching Ray, CL 11, 2nd level spell = 12d6 Twin Spell Scorching Ray, 6th level spell equivalent = 24d6 Energy Ray, ML 20, MORE THAN 10th LEVEL POWER EQUIVALENT = 20d6+20 5 Scorching Rays, CL 20, 10 total spell levels = 60d6 Twin Spell Split Ray Empowered Scorching Ray, CL 20, 10th level spell equivalent = 48d6 The damage comparison isn't the best because it isn't really effective at high levels, but its the most direct. People suggesting a psion should burn 20 pps on a lowly energy ray or crystal shard to do 20d6 is like telling someone to go buy a ferari, then strip the engine and put it in a ford pinto because the pinto will go just as fast. I. Psions get more options than Sorc. 3) There are more sorc/wizard spells than psion powers. More than twice as many in the PHB alone by the way. There are 162 psion/wilder powers in XPH, compare to 371 sorcerer/wizard spells in the PHB. Even if you count all the disciplines and psychic warriors, and the powers that mimic a bunch of sorc/wizard spells at a time (astral construct, animal affinity, even energy ray as scorching ray and polar ray) you still end up with more spells than powers. Think about this carefully. THERE ARE MORE SORC/WIZ SPELLS IN THE PHB THAN THERE ARE TOTAL POWERS IN THE XPH. There are more 1st - 4th level spells in the PHB than there are psion/wilder powers. That alone means there are at least 200 spell effects that no psion can duplicate with a power. A) Psions can wear armor & shield: That said, I conceed that the armor bit is an advantage of a psion, I also conceed that a psion gets a free silent spell, still spell and eschew materials over arcane casters and gets to apply them all for free to all his powers. 1) Psions get class bonus feats & can specialize, the Sorc does not (I think I may have read the Sorc is actually able to specialize in a school in 3.5, but can't find where, so I am going with can NOT, less someone could please point me to that article in the core books). A wizard gets bonus feats and has to specialize too. Another reason the posters here think wizard is a better comparison than sorc. On a further point, a wizard is not forced to specialize, a psion is. Further all the psion gets for his trouble is access to a subset of powers that otherwise would have existed as regular psion/wilder powers. B) Psions have more diversity than even the most diverse SPONTANEOUS spellcaster in the core books, the Sorc. I think you mean flexibility, since as stated before, there is an impossibly massive difference in the number of spells to chose from and the number of powers to choose from. 1) Compared to the Sorc, they get more powers/spells to choose and get more diversity in their usage... And sorcerers get more spells per day, this is a marginal difference at best. If you count 0th level spells, the sorc ends up with more known, and everything that was a 0th level power in 3.0 has become a 1st level power in the XPH, meaning a psion spends more to know it and more to manifest it (little useful things like create sound, far hand and detect psionics) 2) Can power a lvl 1 spell into a lvl 20 spell. (I have noted this IS easier to protect against than most higher lvl Sorc spells, IN THE CASE THAT, you are currently affected by some form of spell lvl immunity.) He also pays out his ears in power points for it, as I mentioned above, the resources expended to do this are equivalent to firing off 20 first level spells, or a 9th level spell and a 2nd level spell (say meteor swarm and scorching ray vs energy ray, I wonder who gets the short end of that stick? :nonono: ) 3) I see it as the Psion can essentially metamagic any power immediately versus the 1 round it takes the Sorc to due so. Even if I am incorrect & they can't meta them immediately... Hmmm, a wizard doesn't take extra time to metamagic his spells does he? I wonder why we keep saying a wizard is a better comparison to a psion... 4) Isn't empowering a 1st lvl spell by adding power points, in itself, a FREE empowerment feat. Yep, if fireballs never do more than 5d6, or scorching ray more than 3d6, or no greater dispel magic existing. In actuality this is closer to a free heighten spell than a free empower spell. The DCs increase as you spend more points, at the same rate they would for heighten spell, the extra damage is effectively the result of the psion manifesting the power as one of higher level. Don't compare a 20d6 energy ray to a 1st level spell, compare it to a spell(s) that takes equivalent resources to spend (a 9th and a 2nd, an 8th and a 3rd, a 7th and a 4th, etc) Please, do not attack my questions, I WANT to use and LIKE Psions. I don't mean to attack, merely to inform, I apologise for sarcasm that may have slipped through as I, like everyone else here have been through this debate numerous times. Your point about armor is an advantage of the psion, but not a big one, and not without disadvantages that put it in check. Hope this helps :D
Alienfreak 04-30-05, 03:28 PM	3) I see it as the Psion can essentially metamagic any power immediately versus the 1 round it takes the Sorc to due so. Even if I am incorrect & they can't meta them immediately... A Sorcerer can use more than one Metamagic feat per round.
Tempest Stormwind 04-30-05, 03:32 PM	Plus if a psion wants to do it more than once per combat, or use more than one feat at once, it takes at least two other feats to do so, often as many as three (Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Confinement, Psionic Meditation). It still takes him actions to regain focus, too. In effect, if he has NO OTHER FEATS except the metapsi, he has 1/combat instant metamagic, but has to take a full round action PLUS the manifesting time for each subsequent time. If he has more feats, it tends to alter things a bit, since some feats (like Up the Walls) work only when you're focused (so you don't want to metapsi all the time) and others also require you to expend focus (Fell Shot comes to mind for many psions, or possibly Power Penetration if you insist on it). And you have but one focus to spend without a lot of other feats.
Questions 04-30-05, 04:44 PM	Thanks everyone for your help with my questions. Until I can think of some more... Take care, -jsb
TheDarkestOfAngels 04-30-05, 05:35 PM	I think all this should be added to the Myths that have already been dismantled via the very intelligent statements made by the relevant people who started these threads. >Stuff< :D
Bacris 04-30-05, 05:49 PM	I think all this should be added to the Myths that have already been dismantled via the very intelligent statements made by the relevant people who started these threads. I think I'd agree. He did a great job.
DisposableHero_ 04-30-05, 07:19 PM	thanks :D glad to help
Sir Elton 05-01-05, 09:04 AM	I think I'd agree. He did a great job. Okay. Adding it in. :D
Red_Decker 05-08-05, 02:22 AM	Okay ihave an actual play experience that will help this topic. I was recently in a situation that favored the Spellcaster/Psion in combat. Playing a Wizard that specialized in force spells standing next to a psion we went nova against a room full of Rogues. [I think 13 in all]. First my Wizard laid down a Evard's Black Tenticles so melee wasn't an option for anyone. This blocked them in and allowed the two to just unload. [At the end both of us still had a little power left just in case.] Using Orb of Force, Ball of Fangs [basically fireball only force damage and 10' burst], and a binding Shadows spell I did alot to slow down the rogues. The psion used energy cone [cold], an Astral Construct, death urge and Recall agony. We stood on par with each other. We all thought the Energy Cone [cold] was gonna end it because she was able to hit all of them in the cone but unfortunately they had armor with cold resistance on it. All in all I'd say they're equal. Both have advatages and disadvantages and the other party members sat back and twitled their thumbs. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Sir Elton 05-08-05, 09:15 AM	That's because they got the same results. :D Nice story on what happened in your game. It's too bad the others didn't get a chance to do anything.
Red_Decker 05-08-05, 09:32 AM	That's because they got the same results. :D Nice story on what happened in your game. It's too bad the others didn't get a chance to do anything. At first it was a three person party a Ranger/Bloodhound[My character], a druid, a rogue/wizard. The guy playing the rogue/wizard had no idea od how to do it so we let him bail out and play a strait up rogue instead [he enjoys it much more] but then we lacked the magical punch we needed so I voluntered to play a wizard for the first time while playing the ranger. My characters were linked to being old friends so the first interaction was quite humorous with me doing both characters dialogue. Anyway that night we had an extra [the psion] and threw her in and voila instant Wizard/Psion competition. The druid threw out a few spells also but the wizard and Psion toasted them. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Sir Elton 05-08-05, 11:03 PM	Wow! That is great! Sounds like you guys basically shut up and played. If that happened all the time, imagine how much fun everyone would have!
Omega13 05-11-05, 08:46 PM	Only problem now is we have to bump this thread constantly.
De Batavier 05-13-05, 08:02 AM	Maybe if we ask nicely Mark will add this thread to the Master Index ;)
Sir Elton 05-13-05, 11:06 AM	Yes. That would work. I'd like to add another section on soulknives. Try to answer the question: Why doesn't the soulknife have a full BAB, since a soulknife's only mental power has to do with his mind blade?
cvazi 05-13-05, 11:15 AM	Yes. That would work. I'd like to add another section on soulknives. Try to answer the question: Why doesn't the soulknife have a full BAB, since a soulknife's only mental power has to do with his mind blade? Game Balance issues: They need to balance out all that flavor :rolleye2:
Sir Elton 05-13-05, 12:55 PM	Game Balance issues: They need to balance out all that flavor :rolleye2: Oh. Can you elaborate?
cvazi 05-13-05, 02:02 PM	IMHO Soulknives are pimp. Thier weapons are made of pure intention. How cool is *that*. Which is cooler: Scene 1: You enter the dark alley and behind you steps a figure cloacked in shadows. He draws a knife . His gravelly voice pierces the preternatural silence. "You killed my family. I have hunted you for years. Justice will be mine." or Scene 2: You enter the dark alley and behind you steps a figure cloacked in shadows. A blade made of hatred given form coalesces in his hand . His gravelly voice pierces the preternatural silence. "You killed my family. I have hunted you for years. Justice will be mine." Sure, if we are talking about intent made into a weapon, you could argue that a sorc or psion or wilder can do the same thing (and are probably better at it). But this is a guy who doesn't just want to kill, he wants to feel you die. He wants to feel you blood flow over his hands. He doesn't want to stand far away and blast you, he wants to hear your death rattle, revel in your spilled innards and savor the knowledge that he is the last thing you see before you enter the afterlife. The soulkife doesn't just want you dead, he wants to make your death personal. There is something viscerally satisfing about playing someone (or using someone as a BBEG) who is so focused, that the world isn't just black in white or good and evil- it is a you and me mentality. More precisely it is a "You or me" mentality. It is a point of view that is so pure that it can only exist in a DnD. As a PC, it is a mentality that is both compelling and disturbing to portray. The portion of you who is role-playing finds the psychotic thought patterns elegant and efficient, while the portion of you who is grounded in real life is simply horrified by the brutality of your character's thoughts. That is what i meant by "flavor."
Norhg 05-13-05, 02:14 PM	Often Psionic characters seem much more powerfull than their core class counterparts, why is that?
cvazi 05-13-05, 02:25 PM	Often Psionic characters seem much more powerfull than their core class counterparts, why is that? I dunno, why don't you tell us why you think they are more powerful?
Norhg 05-13-05, 04:55 PM	I dunno, why don't you tell us why you think they are more powerful? Me? You better read my question again... I'm sure someone might have a theory to answer my question... maybe? or not? your pick.
PhaedrusXY 05-13-05, 05:37 PM	Me? You better read my question again... I'm sure someone might have a theory to answer my question... maybe? or not? your pick.Reread your own question.Often Psionic characters seem much more powerfull (to me) than their core class counterparts, why is that?cvazi's response makes perfect sense to me. Or do you want us to guess what it is about your own experiences (which we know nothing about) that makes you think psionic characters appear stronger than other characters?
Norhg 05-13-05, 05:58 PM	Edit: Removed and exchanged content, read what I said below. Trolling is bad, don't do it. Frankly, I was thinking on this whole thread's topic. If all myths actually don't carry any merit, why do many people (who have had all of their gaming experience from 3rd edition) still get the impression during play that psions are more powerfull than other basic classes? This mostly carters to psychic warriors, wilders and psions. Never seen anyone who have dared to play a soulknife yet.
Senchal 05-13-05, 06:04 PM	"Just because something should be doesn't mean it will be, is or shall ever happen and sometimes... you aren't even correct" -The World Crash Course 101 ok that was relevant. there are so many people here who love to talk about psionics. If you can't help them help you then please move to another forum. there was nothing wrong with either of the other two posters remarks or questions. they can't discuss the reasons why you think that psionics characters are more powerful than their core class counterparts if you don't tell them your reasons for thinking that way.
Tsuul 05-13-05, 06:50 PM	If all myths actually don't carry any merit, why do many people (who have had all of their gaming experience from 3rd edition) still get the impression during play that psions are more powerfull than other basic classes?Same reason stereotypes persist. You're from Sweden, are you a 7' tall, blond hair, blue eyed adonis, who may or may not be on a swim team? The "Where there is smoke there must be fire." philosophy is not always true. Especially true when it comes to false smoke.
lovehater 05-13-05, 07:13 PM	guys come on, psoins are not overpowered! wizard, cast fly, fireball. game over. and psoins have power points so in some cases it can only be manifested once or twice a day.
Norhg 05-13-05, 07:16 PM	To further augment my point I'll give you one of the many things people have deemed... What? Can psions do that? Here we have Decker, a level 1 strongheart halfling psion. He is a silly little halfling only knowing 3 powers. Those are, force screen, inertial armor and energy ray. Because Decker is a little meanie. at 5 power points a day. You see, he has 14 points of intelligence and a psionic talent! Quite clever little guy actually. And he really knows what he can do... He joins the fighting club! There he boasts and boasts, I can take any other rookie! A rookie answers his challenge. That rookie is a level 1 fighter named "Odd Guy". Quite generic he is, got a bastard sword or whatever. Weapon doesn't matter and Decker knows that. The minute of the battle comes and Decker starts prepairing. Step One, Inertial armor! Power points at 4, Step two, Force screen! Power points at 3 oh, and the battle starts. Raaarrrhh! screams Odd guy. Decker Yawns and lets Odd Guy charge at him. Woaha! Attack roll 16! +1 from weapon focus! +1 from bab! +3 from strength... that is huge... Oh, and two from charge!!! 23. Who can survive that? You guess... Decker dodges. With an ac 10+4(force screen)+4(inertial armor)+1(size)+4(dex! Odd Guy had 16 str, fair that isn't it?)+2 from dodging(he has psionic dodge!) total is... 25 ac. Ugh, that is a shame... So what goes? Odd Guy gets burned! 1d6+1 to be excact... lets see... excactly 4 fire damage? That leaves Odd guy with 9 left "Why you little!" Odd Guy screams and rolls a 19. Miss! Damn! Decker owns a Heavy Crossbow... it is drawn. Decker has a +5 on his attack roll... Chances favour Decker over Odd Guy. Decker will burn Odd Guy if this Bolt hits. Chances favour Decker. (I didn't bother with AoOs and concentration, who wants to read 100 words that don't prove anything? I was going to do Weapon finessed Unarmed strikes at first but that required bab+1.) Ok, I'll leave it at this. But I'll say that at level 20 any egoist Psion can have an ac of at least 71!!!=10+20 (True Metamorphosis Natural armor from generic dragon) +13(inertial armor)+7(precognition defensive)+7(thicken skin)+8(force screen)+8(mental barrier, but I recommend against it. Not as if you need it)-2(size). I bet this could be bumped too if I had known any good shape. I don't, unfortunately. This is one of the many things that seem "unfair" to others as it puts psions in an unique advantage.
Norhg 05-13-05, 07:21 PM	Same reason stereotypes persist. You're from Sweden, are you a 7' tall, blond hair, blue eyed adonis, who may or may not be on a swim team? The "Where there is smoke there must be fire." philosophy is not always true. Especially true when it comes to false smoke. This is just another fluke but.... All of that is true, except I play Tennis and am 6'5". Swimming doesn't involve enough killing.
PhaedrusXY 05-13-05, 07:24 PM	You could insert wizard in your example instead of psion, and nothing would change, except the wizard would use Magic Missle instead, and have no chance at all of missing. And many people feel low level wizards are weaker than low level fighters. You also heavily biased the fight in favor of the psion by giving him all the time he wanted to pre-cast his "buffs". And further, your fighter is dumb. If he stands there swinging repeatedly over and over against an opponent with an obviously superior Armor Class until he's nuked to death, he deserves to die. He could have grappled the psion, instead. Or taken cover behind a tower shield. Or alot of other things. And the psion is now useless for the rest of the day, because he burned all his power points. Better hope your DM doesn't use more than one encounter per day, or he's as useful as a commoner.
RadicalTaoist 05-13-05, 07:27 PM	Odd Guy is pretty freaking Odd for giving our Decker three whole rounds to prepare instead of kicking his halfling heiny like a masochistic soccer ball. Decker's pretty odd too if he thinks his psion career is going to be long when he spends more than half his power points on his first encounter of the day. And that 20th level psion AC example is too laughable. Power Point cost? Duration? Please. EDIT: Wait a second. Thicken Skin isn't one of our 3 powers known at 1st level, or did you decide against Energy Ray (which will probably be his only chance of hurting Odd)? Why doesn't Odd just sunder Decker's crossbow?
lovehater 05-13-05, 07:27 PM	To further augment my point I'll give you one of the many things people have deemed... What? Can psions do that? Here we have Decker, a level 1 strongheart halfling psion. He is a silly little halfling only knowing 3 powers. Those are, force screen, inertial armor and energy ray. Because Decker is a little meanie. at 5 power points a day. You see, he has 14 points of intelligence and a psionic talent! Quite clever little guy actually. And he really knows what he can do... He joins the fighting club! There he boasts and boasts, I can take any other rookie! A rookie answers his challenge. That rookie is a level 1 fighter named "Odd Guy". Quite generic he is, got a bastard sword or whatever. Weapon doesn't matter and Decker knows that. The minute of the battle comes and Decker starts prepairing. Step One, Inertial armor! Power points at 4, Step Two, Thicken skin! Power points at 3 Step three, Force screen! Power points at 2 oh, and the battle starts. Raaarrrhh! screams Odd guy. Decker Yawns and lets Odd Guy charge at him. Woaha! Attack roll 16! +1 from weapon focus! +1 from bab! +3 from strength... that is huge... Oh, and two from charge!!! 23. Who can survive that? You guess... Decker dodges. With an ac 10+4(force screen)+4(inertial armor)+1(size)+4(dex! Odd Guy had 16 str, fair that isn't it?)+2 from dodging(he has psionic dodge!) total is... 25 ac. Ugh, that is a shame... So what goes? Odd Guy gets burned! 1d6+1 to be excact... lets see... excactly 4 fire damage? That leaves Odd guy with 9 left "Why you little!" Odd Guy screams and rolls a 19. Miss! Damn! Decker owns a Heavy Crossbow... it is drawn. Decker has a +5 on his attack roll... Chances favour Decker over Odd Guy. Decker will burn Odd Guy if this Bolt hits. Chances favour Decker. (I didn't bother with AoOs and concentration, who wants to read 100 words that don't prove anything? I was going to do Weapon finessed Unarmed strikes at first but that required bab+1.) Ok, I'll leave it at this. But I'll say that at level 20 any egoist Psion can have an ac of at least 71!!!=10+20 (True Metamorphosis Natural armor from generic dragon) +13(inertial armor)+7(precognition defensive)+7(thicken skin)+8(force screen)+8(mental barrier, but I recommend against it. Not as if you need it)-2(size). I bet this could be bumped too if I had known any good shape. I don't, unfortunately. This is one of the many things that seem "unfair" to others as it puts psions in an unique advantage. but a 20 always hits..........fireball. fireball. fireball. fireball. fireball, say i wonder how many fireballs a wizard could cast at lvl 20? or how many freakin magic missisles! sheesh.
Norhg 05-13-05, 07:46 PM	All other base < psion. be it on the fly or prepared. See argument ^. Besides, a psion is better at nuking than a wizard. I know the Sorcerer was designed to be. Some of that "spontaneous casters should throw more damagezzzz!" carried over to the psion. Oh, and the point was... what other caster can go toe to toe with, these defenses, at level one against a fighter with any wanted amount of preparation? Cleric with a full plate, hold on. level one anyone? Gold is a factor.
PhaedrusXY 05-13-05, 07:52 PM	All other base < psion. be it on the fly or prepared. See argument ^. See refutation ^. Oh, and the point was... what other caster can go toe to toe at level against a fighter whit any amount of preparation? Cleric with a full plate, hold on. level one anyone? Gold is a factorAll of them. All they have to do is win initiative, and cast a spell that requires a Will save. The cleric could just stomp the fighter in melee. Even at level 1. All it takes is good spell/domain selection. He's only a tiny bit behind the fighter as far as hit points, weapon selection, and attacks anyway, and is equal as far as armor choices.
Norhg 05-13-05, 08:42 PM	Nuking, the art of nuking. Here is a wizard at level 20 The average amount of damage a wizard can get from any spell at any given spell level. A wizard has 4 spells of each level. (correct me if I am not using most optimal spell) lvl 1 12,5 (5d4+5 mag missile) lvl 2 22,5 (5d8 many) lvl 3 35 (lightning bolt/fireball) lvl 4 35 (still lightning bolt/fireball) lvl 5 52,5 (cone of cold) lvl 6 70 (chain lightning) (disintegrate perhaps? I count it as save/die spell) lvl 7 78,75 (empowered cone of cold) lvl 8 90 (max cone of cold or horrid wilting) lvl 9 120 (max chain lightning) 480+360+314+280+210+140+140+90+50=2064da mage a day, all spells locked up. Psion Level 20 = 363 power points. optimal use of 20 power points, augmented energy ray maxed. damage = 16*7 (cold or fire) 360/20=18 3 left, 4.5 damage each 18*16*7+4.5*3=2029,5, no powers "locked up" Slight win for wizard here, add in abilty boni +1 12,5 2076,5 +2 25 2091,5 +3 35 2126,5 +4 35 2161,5 +5 64,5 2226,5 +6 95 2309 +7 113,75 2422,75 +8 125 2547,75 +9 184,5 2733,25 a psion gets 10 pp per ability point bonus. for every uneven ability increase total damage increases by a 10d6+10energy ray at every even ability the last 10 pp + these new become 16*7 damage +1 2074,5 +2 2141,5 +3 2186,5 +4 2253,5 +5 2298,5 +6 2365,5 +7 2410,5 +8 2477,5 +9 2522,5 Summary = Psions and Wizards are quite even; at +7 ability mod they are almost equal. But the Psions can fire 112 damage a round rays all day. Wizards can at most do 120 damage in a round, on the top of their careers (+9 to +13 int) 5 times a day! The psion can at the same time deal their full damage 23 times a day. Also, that is what spells a psion can cast any day. I want to hear the wizard who can say that with a honeset face. (the sorcerer can throw spells worth +1032 more damage a day than wizards of the same master abilty mod plus at level 20 if anyone is interested in knowing, they can deal full damage 7 rounds a day). Also, psions can instantly shape their spells to carter to different saving throws, areas or whatever they want! Proof? Psions is übar nuker as friend Nietzsche would have said it.
DisposableHero_ 05-13-05, 09:05 PM	Proof? Psions is übar nuker as friend Nietzsche would have said it. And your point? A 20th level wizard has literally hundreds of better options that dealing damage to an enemy. What use is there for nuking when you can crumple reality in to a marble sized ball and stuff it in your back pocket. Seriously, even if you consider nuking to be a strategy that stands anywhere close to optimal, a simple contingent spell turing or reactive counterspell + reaving dispel will cause the psion to reduce himself to a fine mist instead of his arcane opponent. I don't even have to read the numbers to know you've missed the point. Consequently this ties in nicely to your first question. Often Psionic characters seem much more powerfull than their core class counterparts, why is that? Because psionic characters are flashier than their core counterparts. People are more easily impressed by a psion mimicing an ICBM than a wizard tactically reducing twice his CR in enemies to a hopeless situation in 3 seconds. Similarly, Odd Guy the fighter with his bastard sword doesn't do half the cool stuff that a soul knife or psychic warrior could do, but with a few good feats and tactics, he could own members of those classes because he has some fundamental advantages over them that just aren't as flashy as manifesting a blade of pure hatred to attack with.
RadicalTaoist 05-13-05, 09:16 PM	Actually, getting to the high levels Odd Guy can't do anything cool anymore, but that's a different argument. :(
DisposableHero_ 05-13-05, 09:24 PM	Nobody said odd guy didn't spend his first level as fighter in order to pick up some requirements for a gish build :D
Rolk Flameraven 05-13-05, 10:39 PM	anyone go take a look at that halfing's ac and Mr odd's attack... I think that dumass 6 hp halfling is dead to that nice d10+3 sword in the first round WITH all that crap on. take a look. 10 base +4 shield +4 armor +4 dex +1 size and thats 23 right? what did our dear Mr. Odd get on his charge? *gasp* a 23! sure Psi-dodge works but you have to have Dodge as well and this is a level one Psi who has Psionic Talent... so just how does a halfling have three feats at level one? Of corse Decker is going to win he's cheating! If this is the kind of Psi's you've been playing with then I can see why you think they don't work... Lose one of the feats and your AC drops by one and you get hit maybe not on the charge provided that you go first to USE dodge in the first place... hell that works even with him cheating, but on that 19; or your PP drop to 3 and he is taped for powers one of wich only lasts for a min/lvl all in all this little "fight" doesn't show much of anything.
Kuraito 05-13-05, 10:59 PM	Ok, i'm not sure if this was covered by anyone else, but the one problem I have with Psionics is it makes Arcane pretty dumb. I mean, between divine and psionic, theres no advantage arcane really has. Its gotten to the point where the new arcane classes have to resort to new tricks or supplemental abilities (warlock, spellthief, Hexblade) to keep up. The only thing arcane does that the others don't is illusions. Arcane is really starting to stink up the room as theres no real reason to play it. Most things accomplished by arcane is accomplished better by psionics and/or divine. That does **** me off a little. P.S. By "arcane" i am refering mostly to Wizards and Sorcerers.
DisposableHero_ 05-13-05, 11:18 PM	Ok, i'm not sure if this was covered by anyone else, but the one problem I have with Psionics is it makes Arcane pretty dumb. I mean, between divine and psionic, theres no advantage arcane really has. Its gotten to the point where the new arcane classes have to resort to new tricks or supplemental abilities (warlock, spellthief, Hexblade) to keep up. The only thing arcane does that the others don't is illusions. Arcane is really starting to stink up the room as theres no real reason to play it. Most things accomplished by arcane is accomplished better by psionics and/or divine. That does **** me off a little. P.S. By "arcane" i am refering mostly to Wizards and Sorcerers. Care to be a little more specific? Thats a lovely opinion, but most of the people on the boards will tell you its not the case. If you don't believe me, read this thread all the way through. If you're still not convinced read this (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253). If you're still not convinced, come back and tell us why, and we'll try to share some insight on the subject. The comparison of psionics to arcane magic has been argued many times in depth on these two threads, I'm sure you'll find at least some satisfactory answers to your concerns there.
Arterion 05-13-05, 11:34 PM	Ok, I'll leave it at this. But I'll say that at level 20 any egoist Psion can have an ac of at least 71!!!=10+20 (True Metamorphosis Natural armor from generic dragon) +13(inertial armor)+7(precognition defensive)+7(thicken skin)+8(force screen)+8(mental barrier, but I recommend against it. Not as if you need it)-2(size). I bet this could be bumped too if I had known any good shape. I don't, unfortunately. This is one of the many things that seem "unfair" to others as it puts psions in an unique advantage. And that would be their trick for the day.
Rolk Flameraven 05-13-05, 11:45 PM	And that would be their trick for the day. and they loose EXP for that too while all the Wiz has to do for something like it is use gold. They might not get as high but they don't have to deal with EXP loss EVERYTIME I'd rather get hit and have my Clr buddy heal me after I kill them then lose 200 exp everytime I use the power. 200 might not be all that much but it adds up. Shapechange costs 1500 gp at a one shot for the headdress 200 exp is 1000 gp per casting if you go by the 1exp=5gp used in the DMG. so the WIZ comes out ahead after only two castings.
Arterion 05-13-05, 11:49 PM	Ok, i'm not sure if this was covered by anyone else, but the one problem I have with Psionics is it makes Arcane pretty dumb. I mean, between divine and psionic, theres no advantage arcane really has. Its gotten to the point where the new arcane classes have to resort to new tricks or supplemental abilities (warlock, spellthief, Hexblade) to keep up. The only thing arcane does that the others don't is illusions. Arcane is really starting to stink up the room as theres no real reason to play it. Most things accomplished by arcane is accomplished better by psionics and/or divine. That does **** me off a little. P.S. By "arcane" i am refering mostly to Wizards and Sorcerers. First, I agree that Divine Magic is too powerful in comparison to Arcane Magic. So I don't need to make that argument. As for the Psion, I can pretty easily throw together a sorcerer who can outdamage one. (Though a cleric is easier, actually.) The wizard has much more versatility in respect to available powers/spells. Granted, he does have to prepare them, which is strictly limiting, but one of the things about a wizard that's a given is that he's very powerful is able to prepare for a situtation, and weak if not. There are some ups and down to the Psion. One is augmentation. But this is a double edged sword. If the Psion goes nova, he's going to do a lot of damage, but be useless beyond a couple rounds, because he's burned all his PP. On the bright side, it means he has to know less powers than a sorcerer who would need to know better damage spells or summon spells, buff spells, etc. I still say the cleric is better. Their base damage with inflect spells is higher than any wizard spells or psion powers of equal level, and once they get harm, it's just insane.
Nephlite 05-14-05, 12:02 AM	Ok, i'm not sure if this was covered by anyone else, but the one problem I have with Psionics is it makes Arcane pretty dumb. I mean, between divine and psionic, theres no advantage arcane really has. Its gotten to the point where the new arcane classes have to resort to new tricks or supplemental abilities (warlock, spellthief, Hexblade) to keep up. The only thing arcane does that the others don't is illusions. Arcane is really starting to stink up the room as theres no real reason to play it. Most things accomplished by arcane is accomplished better by psionics and/or divine. That does **** me off a little. P.S. By "arcane" i am refering mostly to Wizards and Sorcerers. There are more (some say better) save or die Arcane spells than Psionic or Divine. Arcaner has illusions, more Save/die, Presitigidation (no divine or psionic equivalent), Full manifestor Prc, spell book (love em or not, they got em), ASF, choice to specialize if wizard (psions have to), and some other stuff.
Arterion 05-14-05, 12:18 AM	and they loose EXP for that too while all the Wiz has to do for something like it is use gold. They might not get as high but they don't have to deal with EXP loss EVERYTIME I'd rather get hit and have my Clr buddy heal me after I kill them then lose 200 exp everytime I use the power. 200 might not be all that much but it adds up. Shapechange costs 1500 gp at a one shot for the headdress 200 exp is 1000 gp per casting if you go by the 1exp=5gp used in the DMG. so the WIZ comes out ahead after only two castings. I personally think XP penalties are the stupidest thing to ever come from WoTC. It just irks me beyond beleif when a Wizard has to drop half a level wish, but a Cleric can Miracle for free, so long as he's using one of the lesser effects of the spell (such as duplicating another spell -- arguably the most useful feature.) Oh and the 100gp Identify for Wizard and only DF for clerics is cute. Really cute.
Red_Decker 05-14-05, 04:26 AM	I'm board and at work so I'm gonna disect something that smells a little fishy.To further augment my point I'll give you one of the many things people have deemed... What? Can psions do that? Here we have Decker, a level 1 strongheart halfling psion. He is a silly little halfling only knowing 3 powers. Those are, force screen, inertial armor and energy ray. Because Decker is a little meanie. at 5 power points a day. You see, he has 14 points of intelligence and a psionic talent! Quite clever little guy actually. And he really knows what he can do... He joins the fighting club! Three very good powers two of which readily translate into arcane spells, Mage armor and Shield. Okay he has 5 pp thus can manifest 5 powers at first level. One feat gone. What is his other feat? Nothing seems overpowered yet but we'll continue to see if you might have something. There he boasts and boasts, I can take any other rookie! A rookie answers his challenge. That rookie is a level 1 fighter named "Odd Guy". Quite generic he is, got a bastard sword or whatever. Weapon doesn't matter and Decker knows that. Weapon matters a great deal a spiked chain user would trash this guy for example but we'll go with bastard sword since that's what you said. He really should have a better name. You give the halfling a cool name like Decker and the fighter a generic name like "Odd Guy". We'll call him OG for short however. The minute of the battle comes and Decker starts prepairing. Step One, Inertial armor! Power points at 4, Step Two, Thicken skin! Power points at 3 Step three, Force screen! Power points at 2 oh, and the battle starts. Raaarrrhh! screams Odd guy. Decker Yawns and lets Odd Guy charge at him. Woaha! Attack roll 16! +1 from weapon focus! +1 from bab! +3 from strength... that is huge... Oh, and two from charge!!! 23. Who can survive that?okay first he now has a different power then listed above so what did you mean? My math says he hit dead on against a 23 ac. But wait?? You guess... Decker dodges. With an ac 10+4(force screen)+4(inertial armor)+1(size)+4(dex! Odd Guy had 16 str, fair that isn't it?)+2 from dodging(he has psionic dodge!) total is... 25 ac. Ugh, that is a shame... Hold the phone here? Psionic dodge so he has three feats? He has to have dodge for psi dodge so his AC is 24. Alright I can handle that. So what goes? Odd Guy gets burned! 1d6+1 to be excact... lets see... excactly 4 fire damage? That leaves Odd guy with 9 left "Why you little!" Odd Guy screams and rolls a 19. Miss! Damn!So now Decker has 4 powers? which one do you get rid of? Thicken skin makes it so the first attack is a hit Energy Ray takes away any serious offense. With the hit you're takin 1d10+4 [2 handed sword]an average of 9.5 damage. I guess we give up Energy ray or your whole arguement is already gone, no you know what OG has a feat or two available so we'll give him power attack so he actually does miss. So, the psion hits the fighter with fire damage. No problem. OG's turn and that'd be a hit even by your math also it's a threat. Now halfling has what 5 HP, 6? Decker owns a Heavy Crossbow... it is drawn. Decker has a +5 on his attack roll... Chances favour Decker over Odd Guy. Decker will burn Odd Guy if this Bolt hits. Chances favour Decker. (I didn't bother with AoOs and concentration, who wants to read 100 words that don't prove anything? I was going to do Weapon finessed Unarmed strikes at first but that required bab+1.)Decker is already dying or plain dead from the critical hit he just took but we'll say there was some type of miss chance in there for OG. Ok, I'll leave it at this. But I'll say that at level 20 any egoist Psion can have an ac of at least 71!!!=10+20 (True Metamorphosis Natural armor from generic dragon) +13(inertial armor)+7(precognition defensive)+7(thicken skin)+8(force screen)+8(mental barrier, but I recommend against it. Not as if you need it)-2(size). I bet this could be bumped too if I had known any good shape. I don't, unfortunately. This is one of the many things that seem "unfair" to others as it puts psions in an unique advantage. 71 with mental barrier up for few rounds, 65 without. Alright he's fried by anything that attacks a touch ac. Alot of wizards do that. Okay now we'll do what you did with the Psion only I'll do it better with the wizard. Based on a 32 point system. I'm a human and I'll specialize with conjuration because I like that school, forbidden schools Enchantment and Nerco. Familar Hedgehog [DMG alternate familiars][Grants +1 to Natural Armor] My stats are: Str 10, dex 14, Con 12, Int 18, wis 12, Cha 8 HP are 5 Resting AC of 13. [10+2dex+1NA] My feats: Echrew Materials, Dodge, Scribe Scroll. He's first level. Prepared spells: 3/3-Acid Splash x2, Ray of frost. 1st-Mage Armor, Shield, Colorspray. Equipment: Quarterstaff, Light crossbow, Backpack, waterskin, Scroll of Colorspray. 11 gp [based on average gold for a wizard] [we'll use what you did primarily until it comes to Red Decker's turn] Prefight: Mage Armor, Designate OG as dodge recipient. [AC: 18] Round 1:RD casts shield fighting defensively for RD [AC: 24], OG Charges whifs against an Attack roll of 23 [22 with power attack] Round 2: RD steps back 5' and casts Colorspray on OG [DC: 15 will save]. Odds are OG fails the save. If he does he's as good as dead. Unconscious for 2d4 rounds. Have a nice day. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Norhg 05-14-05, 07:27 AM	anyone go take a look at that halfing's ac and Mr odd's attack... I think that dumass 6 hp halfling is dead to that nice d10+3 sword in the first round WITH all that crap on. take a look. 10 base +4 shield +4 armor +4 dex +1 size and thats 23 right? what did our dear Mr. Odd get on his charge? *gasp* a 23! sure Psi-dodge works but you have to have Dodge as well and this is a level one Psi who has Psionic Talent... so just how does a halfling have three feats at level one? Of corse Decker is going to win he's cheating! If this is the kind of Psi's you've been playing with then I can see why you think they don't work... Lose one of the feats and your AC drops by one and you get hit maybe not on the charge provided that you go first to USE dodge in the first place... hell that works even with him cheating, but on that 19; or your PP drop to 3 and he is taped for powers one of wich only lasts for a min/lvl 1 feat, level one 2 feats, one racial 3 feats, level one psion And that would be their trick for the day. Seriously? 19 pp for Inertial armor, Precongition Defensive, Mental Barrier. 17 pp for Force screen, Thicken Skin and Greater Metamorphosis. 108 pp. 343-108 = 235. +80 from a generic +8 ability mod. 315 pp, enough for 15 level 9 equailents. and they loose EXP for that too while all the Wiz has to do for something like it is use gold. They might not get as high but they don't have to deal with EXP loss EVERYTIME I'd rather get hit and have my Clr buddy heal me after I kill them then lose 200 exp everytime I use the power. 200 might not be all that much but it adds up. Shapechange costs 1500 gp at a one shot for the headdress 200 exp is 1000 gp per casting if you go by the 1exp=5gp used in the DMG. so the WIZ comes out ahead after only two castings. Seriously, I don't get your point. Are you trying to prove how the Psion's Shapechange is better than the Wizard's in that it costs 33% less to cast or that there is a drawback to getting a +30 ac from shapechanging into say a... pit fiend ... which will let you tank a tarrasque with 5% chance of being hit per attack? A Point I Heard, Wizards would Nuke the Psion away from earth/oerth/toril whatever. +7 insight bonus to saves favor the Psion. If Spell resistance works against Powers than the Power Resistance Power favors the Psion yet again. Reputedly, expanded knowledge (energy missile) is a feat that makes your nuke so much more powerfull than the Wizard's. Save vs Die spells are fairly equal. Decerbate on our side, finger of death on your. But our saves rock yours. okay first he now has a different power then listed above so what did you mean? My math says he hit dead on against a 23 ac. But wait?? QUOTE] Nope, he wasn't hit. Decker's ac still is 25. Removed thicken skin. Because that is one of the powers Decker is gonna take at level 2, perhaps three. Besides, I promise you. Decker is the world's most alive d4 base classer in any situation. Oh, you can do Complete Defensive manuver? I too, my ac is 29. Mine is higher. And I will be much higher at higher levels too. [QUOTE=Red_Decker]Decker is already dying or plain dead from the critical hit he just took but we'll say there was some type of miss chance in there for OG. Just to be nice I'll give you two options for what Odd Guy could have been / done. Option one. Go back in time, make his parents orcs, put him a forest, give big weapon. This version keeps weapon focus but gets rage from being a barbarian and a +2 to attack from orc strength. +9 attack bonus on his 16 str. +11 when charging. that is a 25% chance to hit on a normal attack. 35% on charge. Add in Complete Defense. 5% on attack, 15% on charge. Ouch, headache. Highest possible attack at one has a 5% chance of hitting Decker. What else? Give him a chain, train him with it. New feats= exotic weapon profiency (spiked chain), combat experitise, improved trip. +4 attack roll now. Decker's touch ac is 17 40% chance of touching. Now trip... +3 vs +4/-4 = 65% chance of trip. Then, attack. 15% of hitting. +a 5% chance of hit AoO. Add together. 0.4*0.65*(0.15+05)= 0.052. Woaha, nice! Every 20th round Decker should die! Defensive stance screw these numbers up for Odd Guy.
Arterion 05-14-05, 01:30 PM	I'm not sure I believe a Psion can out-nuke a Warmage. Let's compare the Psion to the warmage. ^_^ And while there are a lot of ways a Psion can buff himself, each buff takes a known power slot -- which severely limits the Psion in flexibility. If he's going to specialize in going nova or AC or attack bonuses, he's going to be good at it. I don't think anyone questions that. The real issue becomes, how balanced is that character overall? We know we can build a mounted charger character to do thousands of damage in a single charge, but that doesn't mean the character is very useful in casual play. Might I remind you that combat is only one aspect of the game. If you throw a Nova Psion into a city-based campaign based on intrigue, he suddenly becomes pretty useless, or much less useful than a well-balanced Psion. I think the issue here is that it's easier to min/max a Psion than it is a Wizard or Sorcerer. For one, you don't need to diversify into prestige classes to be powerful, as you do with a Wiz/Sor -- all the gimpy stuff for the Psion is right there in the XPH. In that aspect, maybe the XPH is overpowered. :-)
Alienfreak 05-14-05, 01:41 PM	In terms of damage per rounds for sure. But not at total damage dealt.
Kuraito 05-14-05, 02:14 PM	1. Every Psion that I have played with has "gone Nova" and I have only seen the psion run out of PP at a bad time ONCE out of 3 different Psions. 2. Augmentation is a strength, especially when you consider the HUGE number of PP a psion starts getting(using just dase power points, you can launch 17 fully augmented powers at level 20. ouch). Also, the lack of powers known dosn't mean alot as Psion powers are often many spells in one. Also, the fact that energy resist and power resist means little to a Psion (energy ray, Crystal Shard, ect.) while still doing the same or MORE damage is unfair. 3. save or Die= Dumb. The DCs are so pathetic for the level that by the time you get it if you kill anything GOOD, thank your lucky stars he rolled low. Sitting in combat throwing All or Nothing spells at the enemy that more often or not do nothing dosn't seem fun at all. Compared to a Psion who can lay some Smack regardless of what the enemy has (power resist? Energy resist? see above) and both psions and clerics do have some of those precious Save or Dies(or things that mimick save or die, or are save ordies, but BETTER), so its a moot point anyway. 4. Wizards are versitale, except not really. They got a great spell list that they have to spend so much time and moeny learning its ridiculous. clerics has a nice spell list to, they know it all. Psions have a set number of powers but they are each so flexible the psion will almost never be unable to be useful (enemy has fire resist?Psion, Cold energy ray.Cleric: Buff or move up and lay some smack. Wizard/Sorcerer: Curse the fhe fact you prepared/learned fireball and try to figure out a way for your other spells to do SOMETHING.) Finally, as i said. Arcane can do stuff. The problem is they don't do much of it better, and the few things they do better, isn't worth it. Give me a job a wizard/sorcerer is suposed to do, and I can point to another class and say "They can do it better." THATS my problem.
RadicalTaoist 05-14-05, 02:48 PM	Arcane Mages own in summoning. Druids can get the bruiser melee creatures faster, and Clerics can summon pretty good as well, but when you get down to it a lack of alignment restriction (and the occasional Shadow Conjuration) makes the sorc and wiz kings of the hill. It gets worse when Gate comes in and all of a sudden, you can win a CR of 3 higher than your effective party level for an XP cost. As for the Save-or-Dies vs. Blasting argument...I do not see all this smack the psion lays down. His blasting increases by d6 per level, the few exceptions being Psionic Disentigrate and Mind Thrust, both of which are single target and have a save. Enemy HPs increase by d8, d10, d12 per level, including Con. The Sorc, Warmage, and Wizard do not have to pay as much to add extra d6s on, whereas the Psion must pay for every single d6. The fact that the psion can make blasting useful at all at the higher levels is a good sign. Warmage and metabreath focused sorcerors (obscure build using stuff from the Draconomicon and Complete Arcane) can match that kind of damage. Meanwhile, if you're not impressed by the Arcane Save-or-Dies - Transmute Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Color Spray, Sleep, etc. - then try some of the Arcane No-Save-Just-Dies - Touch of Idiocy, Otto's Irresistable Dance, the Power Words, etc. Lastly: 17 fully augmented powers means 4 fully augmented powers per encounter plus some spare power points in a 4 encounter day, or 5 fully augmented powers per encounter plus roughly twice as many spare power points in a 3 encounter day (which should have all three encounters at about CR 1 above the party's ECL). Hmm. If you're using stunts like Schism or Quicken Power to get your effects out faster, you're gonna run dry REAL quick. On the plus side, this thread is alive again.
Norhg 05-14-05, 03:16 PM	Hello everyone, I did something quite irritating with my last "art of nuking" thread. You see, I only used the Wizard's optimal spells, not the Psion's. In this Spoiler goes Wizard at 20. Here is a wizard at level 20 The average amount of damage a wizard can get from any spell at any given spell level. A wizard has 4 spells of each level. (correct me if I am not using most optimal spell) lvl 1 12,5 (5d4+5 mag missile) lvl 2 22,5 (5d8 many) lvl 3 35 (lightning bolt/fireball) lvl 4 35 (still lightning bolt/fireball) lvl 5 52,5 (cone of cold) lvl 6 70 (chain lightning) (disintegrate perhaps? I count it as save/die spell) lvl 7 78,75 (empowered cone of cold) lvl 8 90 (max cone of cold or horrid wilting) lvl 9 120 (max chain lightning) again, this is the optimal placement of spells Psion Level 20 = 363 power points. optimal use of 20 power points, twinned augmented energy ray/energy missile. damage = 28*4,5 (cold or fire) 360/20=18 3 left, 4.5 damage each 18*28*4,5+4.5*3=2255.5, no powers "locked up" Now the Psion deals more damage a day at higher DCs and the wizard throws all of his spells as damage, to the last magic missile. (-rays of frost) Lvl 20 Wizard effective damage bonus at different ability scores +1 12,5 2076,5 +2 25 2091,5 +3 35 2126,5 +4 35 2161,5 +5 64,5 2226,5 +6 95 2309 +7 113,75 2422,75 +8 125 2547,75 +9 184,5 2733,25 a psion gets 10 pp per ability point bonus. for every uneven ability increase total damage increases by a 10d6+10energy ray at every even ability the last 10 pp + these new become 28*4,5 damage +1 2300.5 +2 2381.5 +3 2426.5 +4 2507.5 +5 2552.5 +6 2633.5 +7 2678.5 +8 2759.5 +9 2804.5 New calculations show that the psion is ahead of the wizard in pure damage a day, pure damage a round and preparations needed. Amount of feats invested are the same but... spontaneous casting beats prepare casting. Arcane Mages own in summoning. Druids can get the bruiser melee creatures faster, and Clerics can summon pretty good as well, but when you get down to it a lack of alignment restriction (and the occasional Shadow Conjuration) makes the sorc and wiz kings of the hill. It gets worse when Gate comes in and all of a sudden, you can win a CR of 3 higher than your effective party level for an XP cost. Also, the wilder beats all other when it comes to summoning. 9TH-Level Astral Construct at level 11? Yes please! (overchannel feat and class ability for +6 manifester levels) As for the Save-or-Dies vs. Blasting argument...I do not see all this smack the psion lays down. His blasting increases by d6 per level, the few exceptions being Psionic Disentigrate and Mind Thrust, both of which are single target and have a save. Enemy HPs increase by d8, d10, d12 per level, including Con. The Sorc, Warmage, and Wizard do not have to pay as much to add extra d6s on, whereas the Psion must pay for every single d6. The fact that the psion can make blasting useful at all at the higher levels is a good sign. Warmage and metabreath focused sorcerors (obscure build using stuff from the Draconomicon and Complete Arcane) can match that kind of damage. Meanwhile, if you're not impressed by the Arcane Save-or-Dies - Transmute Flesh to Stone, Circle of Death, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Color Spray, Sleep, etc. - then try some of the Arcane No-Save-Just-Dies - Touch of Idiocy, Otto's Irresistable Dance, the Power Words, etc. As shown above ^ psions are better (marginally) than a wizard at laying smack down. Our spells have much higher dcs, adaptability and damage/round. I don't see where a wizard would be as good. Save/die? We have no-save-you-die spells too. Microcosm anyone? And of the Save-Or-Die spells you listed you didn't list a single Will based save/die spell. We have got that, Decerebrate and others. Disintegrate I would call a save-die spell too. Now, compare to this. Psion's have True Metabolism to heal 100 hp/level. (fast healing 10 power that lasts for 1min./level.) With Empathic Transfer they can heal a whole party. How does the Wizard compare?
Tsuul 05-14-05, 03:33 PM	On the plus side, this thread is alive again.It's a ploy by the Moon Rats to depopulate the world of cats. Beware! Norhg, sorcerer's out nuke wizards, does that make them broken too? Ranger's cast spells that far out strip anything a warrior can cast. Burn them too, burn them too!!!
Norhg 05-14-05, 03:40 PM	It's a ploy by the Moon Rats to depopulate the world of cats. Beware! Norhg, sorcerer's out nuke wizards, does that make them broken too? Ranger's cast spells that far out strip anything a warrior can cast. Burn them too, burn them too!!! Tsuul, please. Read the thread's topic. We are discussing overpowered, not broken. Then read the last posts and answer them.
Tsuul 05-14-05, 03:46 PM	Norhg, sorcerer's out nuke wizards, does that make them overpowered too?
Alienfreak 05-14-05, 04:07 PM	Here is a wizard at level 20 The average amount of damage a wizard can get from any spell at any given spell level. A wizard has 4 spells of each level. (correct me if I am not using most optimal spell) lvl 1 12,5 (5d4+5 mag missile) lvl 2 22,5 (5d8 many) lvl 3 35 (lightning bolt/fireball) lvl 4 35 (still lightning bolt/fireball) lvl 5 52,5 (cone of cold) lvl 6 70 (chain lightning) (disintegrate perhaps? I count it as save/die spell) lvl 7 78,75 (empowered cone of cold) lvl 8 90 (max cone of cold or horrid wilting) lvl 9 120 (max chain lightning) again, this is the optimal placement of spells lvl 1 22,5 (lesser orb of xxx) lvl 2 42 (scorching ray) lvl 3 42 (scorching ray) lvl 4 63 (empowered scorching ray) lvl 5 72 (maximized scorching ray) lvl 6 77 (empowered orb of xx) lvl 7 108 (empowered maximized scorching ray) lvl 8 108 (") lvl 9 132 (maximized empowered orb of xx) This is just what came up in my mind...if i would work over it i would definatly find some ways to push the damage further. 2666 dmg the psion does only 2255.5 NOTE: Scorching Ray, which i used occasionaly, doesnt even allow a save for half ... so dont come up with the DC argument. And high stats favor the Wizard, not the Psion. The wizard clearly outdamages the Psion.
Norhg 05-14-05, 04:09 PM	Often Psionic characters seem much more powerfull than their core class counterparts, why is that? Psions has capabilities that far exceed most other classes. The class it is easiest to compare with, due to bonus feat progression, is the wizard. I'm giving points to why the Psion is better than its base book counterpart. The sorcerer is, in essence, a Wizard who got spontaneous casting, more spells per day, and advantageos weapon profiencies by sacrifing int as a main casting score as well as some bonus feats and spell access. If I see them in this light I deem them fairly balanced compared to each other. So if Wizard is = Sorcerer. Then if Psion > Wizard. Psion should also be > Sorcerer. I hope you understand what train of though I'm trying to convey.
Alienfreak 05-14-05, 04:11 PM	Save/die? We have no-save-you-die spells too. Microcosm anyone? And of the Save-Or-Die spells you listed you didn't list a single Will based save/die spell. We have got that, Decerebrate and others. Disintegrate I would call a save-die spell too. Microcosm = **** = Power word Kill ... Disintegrate isnt a Save or Die spell. And this one clearly favors the Wizard.
carnivore 05-14-05, 04:12 PM	the Wizard or Sorceror can Go a lot Higher......they get to Use Metamagic Rods for free, there is no psionic Equilivant to them. this simply shows that the Psionic classes have been Nerfed too much and Arcane and Divine casters get far too much :(
Norhg 05-14-05, 04:35 PM	lvl 1 22,5 (lesser orb of xxx) lvl 2 42 (scorching ray) lvl 3 42 (scorching ray) lvl 4 63 (empowered scorching ray) lvl 5 72 (maximized scorching ray) lvl 6 77 (empowered orb of xx) lvl 7 108 (empowered maximized scorching ray) lvl 8 108 (") lvl 9 132 (maximized empowered orb of xx) NOTE: Scorching Ray, which i used occasionaly, doesnt even allow a save for half ... so dont come up with the DC argument. Wow, I must start using Scorching Ray. No save or nothing... really nothing to complain about here other than how you calculated your spells... I recall a "faq" once stating that when you maximized and empowered a spell's total damage would in reality be, if the spell at first did xdy damage, x*y + 50% of xdy. Minor but also... what insane wizard would anticipate having to go up against 2666 hps worth of single enemies? Weird that and another point to further prove the Psion's worth. Oh and besides, the Wizard will still be down to lower damage spells quite soon whereas the Psion deals all of his damage in 18 rounds, compared to the wizard's 36 rounds. By your model the Wizard will have done 528 damage after 4 rounds. The psion 504. After 8 rounds the psion will have done 1008, Wizard 960 a couple rounds later and the psion will lead by even more.
Tsuul 05-14-05, 04:53 PM	So if Wizard is = Sorcerer. Then if Psion > Wizard. Psion should also be > Sorcerer. I hope you understand what train of though I'm trying to convey. You are compairing the strengths of the psion class versus the "strengths" of other classes and trying to prove why the psion is overpowered. But you are cherrypicking. You pointed out that psions can out defense the strongest melee class, the fighter. And claim that is overpowered because it can do so. You made the claim that weapons made no difference in the equation. FALSE. Had the fighter used alchemist fire he would have had to hit agains an AC of 17. Not difficult. Had the Fighter sundered the psions x-bow in attack one, he could have pulled up a lawn chair and ordered the psion to get him lemonaid on round two. I've seen clerics bust out 156+AC at level 20; 71 is laughable. You point out that a psion can out nuke a wizard and claim that it is overpowered. Then you say that sorcerers can do the same but are not overpowered compaired to wizards because they have other things that balance them out. ok here we go. Metamagic rods. Multiple metamagic applications. FULL spellcaster progression in PrCs Better Save or Die spells. Ability to know every spell. Better summons (for psions, wilders have alot of other problems) better No Save and Die spells
Norhg 05-14-05, 05:12 PM	You are compairing the strengths of the psion class versus the "strengths" of other classes and trying to prove why the psion is overpowered. But you are cherrypicking. You pointed out that psions can out defense the strongest melee class, the fighter. And claim that is overpowered because it can do so. You made the claim that weapons made no difference in the equation. FALSE. Had the fighter used alchemist fire he would have had to hit agains an AC of 17. Not difficult. Had the Fighter sundered the psions x-bow in attack one, he could have pulled up a lawn chair and ordered the psion to get him lemonaid on round two. I've seen clerics bust out 156+AC at level 20; 71 is laughable. You point out that a psion can out nuke a wizard and claim that it is overpowered. Then you say that sorcerers can do the same but are not overpowered compaired to wizards because they have other things that balance them out. ok here we go. Metamagic rods. Multiple metamagic applications. FULL spellcaster progression in PrCs Better Save or Die spells. Ability to know every spell. Better summons (for psions, wilders have alot of other problems) better No Save and Die spells Ac, but not maxed yet. 133 atm (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=428658) I'm proving how no other class compares to the many uses of Psion. XX can do that better than Psion! But YY is just as good at is as Psion! -You say. And as I see it... I'm not comparing the materials the different classes have access to. Rather, I say that the psion has an ability that no other class. It can always do what 'it' takes. They don't need splatterbook y or a cleric healing them. They can Charm if they want, they can heal the whole party if need be (True metabolism + empathic transfer, cheap to use too... especially at epic). Nothing slows a psion down. Whereas the Cleric can in-combat heal a little bit better the Psion can lay mayor smackdown with his on the run nukes and after battle he can greater teleport anywhere. He can do insta will save or die against big monsters. If meeting a foe of legends, like a great dragon or the tarrasque, he can meet it at even terms. Isn't being able to do everything an unique role? Especially as they do it so well.
Tsuul 05-14-05, 05:42 PM	Nothing slows a psion downChoosing a finite list of powers known helps. Tarrasques need wishes and miracles to die.
Norhg 05-14-05, 05:49 PM	Choosing a finite list of powers known helps. Tarrasques need wishes and miracles to die. I had call Reality Revision that. Otherwise, just let your party's wizard take care of that part when you have tanked the Tarrasque into submission.
Norhg 05-14-05, 06:02 PM	So I managed to get a crapload of AC. 180 to be excact, nya. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=6178498#post6178498)
Tsuul 05-14-05, 06:46 PM	I counted 142 with 159 for one attack. How much damage did the psion take for overchaneling? How many PPs were spent? It matters. A cleric would probably have more spells left.(Just a guess) [edit: perhaps double defending weapons are legal. 147/164 :edit]
Bacris 05-14-05, 07:05 PM	You're still cherry-picking in your comparisons. Refusing to accept downsides because you want to blow them off doesn't make them any less applicable as downsides.
RadicalTaoist 05-14-05, 07:20 PM	Also, the wilder beats all other when it comes to summoning. 9TH-Level Astral Construct at level 11? Yes please! (overchannel feat and class ability for +6 manifester levels)First order of business: Overchannel and Wild Surge don't stack. Second order: do you really want to compare a single Astral Construct to all the combat options in outsiders the Wizard can summon or Planar Bind? Not to mention, I thought your complaint was that Psionic Characters had too many options. I don't know if a Wilder qualifies as a "too many options" class, for obvious reasons. As shown above ^ psions are better (marginally) than a wizard at laying smack down. Our spells have much higher dcs, adaptability and damage/round. I don't see where a wizard would be as good.Your example used stilled fireballs as optimal blasting spells. Nuff said. I'll let others deal with this argument. Save/die? We have no-save-you-die spells too. Microcosm anyone? And of the Save-Or-Die spells you listed you didn't list a single Will based save/die spell. We have got that, Decerebrate and others. Disintegrate I would call a save-die spell too.Ah yes, psionic save-or-dies, like Crisis of Breath and it's -4 to save DC? I take your Decerebrate and Microcosm and raise you by an Imprisonment. Or maybe the Dimensional Anchor/Maze combo. Phantasmal Killer and it's buddy Weird, Mind Fog and Feeblemind to soften foes up, the list goes on. In targeting multiple foes and in versatility, arcane magic is so far ahead of psionics it's laughable to compare. Plus, y'know, a mage doesn't have to choose between his Spell Focus feat and his metamagic feats on any spell. Now, compare to this. Psion's have True Metabolism to heal 100 hp/level. (fast healing 10 power that lasts for 1min./level.) With Empathic Transfer they can heal a whole party. How does the Wizard compare? The Wizard casts Polymorph from his 4th level spell slots, using considerably less resources and helping far before level 15, when Psions learn TM. By the time the psion learns TM, the wizard summons outsiders with healing SLAs. Both classes should definitely leave healing to bards and divine casters.
Kuraito 05-14-05, 07:30 PM	People seem to be overlooking alot of stuff again. the question is, What do Wizards do that no one else can do better? Lets check. Damage: Wizards are no slouches, but sorcerers, Warmages, Wilders, Psions and a few other beat the crap out of them. Buff: Psions and Wilders do well here, Clerics and their brethren beat the crap out them. Troubleshoot: Wizards "strong point" . Clerics do a DAMN good job at this to, sometimes even better then the wizard and Artificers rock here. A Hewards Handy haversack filled with scrolls, potions and wands of any spell the party may need, EVER, trumphs the wizards big time in this. Save-or-Die: Not bad, but again, if you can point me to a Save or Die spell that will consistantly kill something thats an appropriate challenge for you, then i shall be very surprised and grateful. Even IF this is good, this is not the wizards sole domain. Most over classes get some Save or Die action to. Summon: Not bad, but sadly, I give this one to druids. The smack they lay is superior and dropping for it is nice. Clerics can do it just as good, if not better as they have more spells and can convert uneeded summons to Cure spells. Versatility: Wizard WOULD win this one....if they prepared like clerics do. As it is, the spellbook limits there effective spellpool, making clerics the real champions here. Wizards are near the bottom in this area sadly and while they can move up, the resources required is not worth it. Divination: Finally, something wizards are...oh, wait. Stupid Clerics. Psions arn't slouches in this area either. Sidekicks: Familiar vs. Animal Compaion.....yea. Familiar vs Psicrystal.....yea. Hey, at least they beat clerics in something. Illusions: Something the wizard does best. Its pretty nifty to. But does it make up for the suckyness of the rest? Nope. Healing: If i really need to explain why wizards loses to almos everyone at this might i suggest a copy of "D&D for Dummies" for you. Item Creation: Wizard are near the top of the food chain here. Artificers beat them and an argument can be made for Warlocks and Clerics. How ever, Item creation is flawed in the fact that in the D&D realm, XP > GP. Go craft happy and start counting the levels you fall behind the party by. 1, 2, 3, it'll keep going. Leave this to the people who arn't screwed in the long term by it. Melee: ....um, Wizards have Tensers Transformation! That counts for something right? Wizards, whats his job? What does he do better then any other class? Really, nothing. If you wanna be an illusionist, be a wizard. Anything else, go cleric or psion. Atleast they dont cry when someone burns their books.
RadicalTaoist 05-14-05, 07:33 PM	Hmm...well, there's a lot to say there...but you're more about the Wizard class, and not Psionic balance, which deserves it's own thread. Make a thread on the weak little wizard in the classes and PrCs forum. I'll see ya there;)
Alienfreak 05-14-05, 08:26 PM	Damage: Wizards are no slouches, but sorcerers, Warmages, Wilders, Psions and a few other beat the crap out of them. Ill have to correct you here: Only Sorcerers and Warmages will outdamage the Wizard. And the Sorcerer only as it comes to total damage. In damage/round you will beat him up. The Warmage is equal at damage/round and superior as it comes to total damage. True. (look at my P.S. for further comments regarding classes like the Warmage) Buff: Psions and Wilders do well here, Clerics and their brethren beat the crap out them. Unfortunatly there are some veeeery good buffs that only the Wizard has. Clerics are the best buffers out there. Psions have their advantages and Wizards have. A tie here. Save-or-Die: Not bad, but again, if you can point me to a Save or Die spell that will consistantly kill something thats an appropriate challenge for you, then i shall be very surprised and grateful. Even IF this is good, this is not the wizards sole domain. Most over classes get some Save or Die action to. It is easily doable to have an DC 42 Finger of Death at level 17. If the target has no more HPs than you it raises to DC 52. Reroll if he succeeds. Thatll drop almost every CR 20 encounter you can imagine (except Dragons ... probably) Summon: Not bad, but sadly, I give this one to druids. The smack they lay is superior and dropping for it is nice. Clerics can do it just as good, if not better as they have more spells and can convert uneeded summons to Cure spells. The Wizard is clearly the best out there as it comes to summoning. Planar Binding can give you an army of fiends. Glabrezus anyone? Versatility: Wizard WOULD win this one....if they prepared like clerics do. As it is, the spellbook limits there effective spellpool, making clerics the real champions here. Wizards are near the bottom in this area sadly and while they can move up, the resources required is not worth it. Only the Druid and the Cleric are superior. Divination: Finally, something wizards are...oh, wait. Stupid Clerics. Psions arn't slouches in this area either. Wizards and Clerics are equal here. Everybody has its own strengths and weaknesses. (i guess your Cleric will miss the See Invisibility?) Sidekicks: Familiar vs. Animal Compaion.....yea. Familiar vs Psicrystal.....yea. Hey, at least they beat clerics in something. The Familiar kicks the ass of every Animal Companion. And an Psicrystal isnt really worth the feat. Illusions: Something the wizard does best. Its pretty nifty to. But does it make up for the suckyness of the rest? Nope. Illusions can turn the outcome of an whole battle pretty easily. Healing: If i really need to explain why wizards loses to almos everyone at this might i suggest a copy of "D&D for Dummies" for you. Probably you should give me one copy ... if im not totally wrong there ARE healing spells for Wizards ;) And if not Arcane Disciple (Healing Domain) and Archmage Spell Like (Heal) is just waiting for you ... 1 Feat 1 Level and 1 Spellslot to give you Heal 3/day. Melee: ....um, Wizards have Tensers Transformation! That counts for something right? You still remember the Touch spell that drains Dex and is commonly known as the Dragon killer? I guess he isnt 2 bad at melee after all ... Wizards, whats his job? What does he do better then any other class? Really, nothing. If you wanna be an illusionist, be a wizard. Anything else, go cleric or psion. Atleast they dont cry when someone burns their books. Illusions, Summoning, Versality, Utility Spells and ... TADA ... lichdom ... P.S. And for the people that really need the "D&D for Dummies" book: A class doesnt have to be the best at anything to be very good! If you can be just 80% as good as someone else in 5 Fields the one that is 100% in one and about 65% in the others will be looking up to you.
Vloorshad 05-15-05, 12:12 AM	Edit: Removed and exchanged content, read what I said below. Trolling is bad, don't do it. Frankly, I was thinking on this whole thread's topic. If all myths actually don't carry any merit, why do many people (who have had all of their gaming experience from 3rd edition) still get the impression during play that psions are more powerfull than other basic classes? This mostly carters to psychic warriors, wilders and psions. Never seen anyone who have dared to play a soulknife yet. How powerful did people think Warlocks were when they first came out? Until somebody actually played it or they read more about it, they were just stuck on the unlimited SLAs per day. It's like that with Psionics. They see scaling DCs, flexible use of "spell slots", energy changes on the fly, etc. and they stick on what they perceive as broken without actually testing that out. That, or they play to a Psionic's strength, one encounter per day, and claim it is broken. How broken would a fighter or warlock be if a party had 20 encounters per day? Here's something I haven't seen posted yet and I wonder how much merit it has. Could the perception of Psionics being broken stem from many of the people playing a Psionic character are more experienced gamers that want to try something new, as opposed to the newer, more inexperienced gamers playing the other classes and not having them as optimized as the Psi player? Anyway, just some food for thought. EDIT: Gah, for some reason I thought I was at the end of this thread. I need more sleep...
DisposableHero_ 05-15-05, 12:26 AM	2. Augmentation is a strength, especially when you consider the HUGE number of PP a psion starts getting(using just dase power points, you can launch 17 fully augmented powers at level 20. ouch). Also, the lack of powers known dosn't mean alot as Psion powers are often many spells in one. Also, the fact that energy resist and power resist means little to a Psion (energy ray, Crystal Shard, ect.) while still doing the same or MORE damage is unfair. :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead: Does NO ONE actually read the threads before they post their complaints? I can't count how many times it has been explained that augmentation is a well designed and implemented WEAKNESS of psions. For those who haven't taken the time to read the MASSIVE number of posts where this is explained, augmentation suffices to replace the wizards "free scaling". A delayed blast fireball is a 7th level spell, energy wave or ultra blast are 7th level powers. The cost to use a 7th level spell is a 7th level spell slot, and a 7th level power is 13 power points. When the 20th level wizard casts his delayed blast fireball, it does 20d6 damage. When a 20th level psion spends the same amount (13 power points) on his ultrablast or energy wave, it does 13d6 damage. Only if he expends more resources does he attain the same damage. Augmentation is only advantageous in allowing some powers to remain useful throughout the psion's career. Similarly, a sorcerer, gets to swap out his lower levels spells to attain ones that remain useful at higher levels, a balanced pair when it comes to preventing limited spell/power selection hindering but not crippling. Psions get what they pay for, a truely optimized 20th level psion has 483 power points at level 20 (343 base + 120 int bonus (int 34, 18 + 5 [tome] +5 [levels] +6 [headband]) +20 (kalashtar racial)). Meaning they can fire off 24 fully augmented powers and have 3 power points left. If he's blasting, he's getting 20d6 out of his blasty powers for each one, and he has 24 of those to toss. Effectively, he gets a d6 for every power point. A total 483d6 per day. If we go kineticist, and use 1 7d6 energy missile and 28 tornado blasts, we get 707d6 damage over the day. An optimized arcane blaster (int/cha 36, 18 + 5 [tome] +5 [levels] +6 [item] + 2 [racial]) has spells per day like this at 20th: spell level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Wizard 8 7 7 7 7 6 6 6 6 Sorcerer 10 9 9 9 9 8 8 8 8 A wizard or sorcerer gets 32d6 out of their 9th levels (meteor swarm), 20d6 out of their 8th levels (polar ray), 20d6 out of their 7th levels (delayed blast fireball), 15d6 out of their 6th levels (chain lighting), 15d6 out of their 5th levels (cone of cold), 18d6 out of their 4th levels (empowered scorching rays), 10d6 out of their 3rd levels (fireball/lightning bolt), 12d6 out of their 2nd levels (scorching ray), and 5d6 out of their first levels (shocking grasp) a handy table to tally that up: caster 32d6 20d6 18d6 15d6 12d6 10d6 5d6 total d6 wizard 6 12 7 12 7 7 8 932 sorcerer 8 16 9 16 9 9 10 1226 The blasting potential over a day favors sorcs, wizards second, psions third. All three can be more effective at it than I have listed here, since only the 4th level spells have any metamagic applied to them. If you count metamagic rods, the wizard and sorcerer blow the psion out of the water. Even in this comparison, heavily weighted in the psion's favor (no metamagic rods, no spell power, no incantatrix, none of that stuff), a psion's blasting over a day falls more than 200d6 (700 average damage!) behind a wizard (he's only 519d6 [1816.5 average damage!] behind the sorcerer) And thats just blasting, the one thing it can be remotely argued that a psion is better at than a wizard. You want things that a wizard can do that a psion can't, pick up your PHB and browse some of the 150 to 200 spells the wizard has for which there are no psionic equivalents (even if you count astral construct as mimicing all 9 summon monsters, and the scalable blasty powers at mimicing every blasty spell with the same area of effect) Any comparison not heavily stacked in the wizard/sorc's favor is one failing to take into account the full potential of those two classes, it surpasses the full potential of psion's easily.
Tempest Stormwind 05-15-05, 01:36 AM	How powerful did people think Warlocks were when they first came out? Until somebody actually played it or they read more about it, they were just stuck on the unlimited SLAs per day. It's like that with Psionics. They see scaling DCs, flexible use of "spell slots", energy changes on the fly, etc. and they stick on what they perceive as broken without actually testing that out. That, or they play to a Psionic's strength, one encounter per day, and claim it is broken. How broken would a fighter or warlock be if a party had 20 encounters per day? Here's something I haven't seen posted yet and I wonder how much merit it has. Could the perception of Psionics being broken stem from many of the people playing a Psionic character are more experienced gamers that want to try something new, as opposed to the newer, more inexperienced gamers playing the other classes and not having them as optimized as the Psi player? Anyway, just some food for thought. That was a truly great post. I'm calling for sections of it to be added to the main myth frontposts.
Red_Decker 05-15-05, 02:11 AM	apparently people missed my post about a Wizard and a Psion nuking it out against 13 rogues. I won, playing the wizard. Using wizard spells which have no comparison to psion powers. A Evard's black tenticles basically blocks anything from getting to the two. A shadow binding spell eliminated much of the threat the rogues held when they chose not to advance within range of the tenticle spell. Shadow Binding for those that don't know is a Illusion spell with a 10' burst anything caught by it has to make a will save or be dazed for a round and entagled until they escape or the spell ends in 1 rd/level. The reduction to dex helped me with an area effect with a dex save for half. Force spells will penetrate energy resistance and DR the only possibility to block them is SR. My wizard specialized in Conjuration, a good school with many good spells. While Evocation has more force spells I didn't want to go that route. The best thing the Psion did was a cone of energy [cold] to deny reflex saves. The rogues were protected with energy resistant armor. [Plot device not a direct power blocking scheme. My DM doesn't put anything in to try and trump any class. Her campaigns are very difficult despite this.] Now @ Norhg, the point of my post with the wizard was not to out do your psion but to show the wizard could do the same, just as easily and less optimization. [Also, to skew more in your favor you should have done Sidestep charge rather then Psionic dodge.] Also with OG as the Orc Barbarian. Decker would be what's for dinner. Even with the fighting defensively. Infact the only way he couldn't of hit is if you did total defense but when you do that you can't do anything else. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Vharuck 05-15-05, 02:12 AM	Ok, arguing that a psion can be a great blaster, diviner, telepath, summoner, fighter, and save-or-dier, you forget one thing: YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE A FREAKING DISCIPLINE! Just one. And I don't want to hear crap about "Oh, you can get Expanded Knowledge!" Guess what? You can't learn a new power until it's one level below your highest, aka not as good as what else you could learn. If a psion's a good diviner, he probably can't nuke with the wizard. If he can use save-or-dies (let's say telepath here), he can't become a tank. A wizard wants to be a good diviner on Monday, no problem. Look those up in your book. A save-or-die on Tuesday? Whatever, that's simple. Just flip the page to your Save-or-Die chapter. Wanna take Wednesday? It's in chapter 6, Buff 'ems. Wizards don't have to specialize, can learn so many various spells, and can know more spells than a psion knows powers.
Norhg 05-15-05, 05:51 AM	How powerful did people think Warlocks were when they first came out? Until somebody actually played it or they read more about it, they were just stuck on the unlimited SLAs per day. It's like that with Psionics. They see scaling DCs, flexible use of "spell slots", energy changes on the fly, etc. and they stick on what they perceive as broken without actually testing that out. That, or they play to a Psionic's strength, one encounter per day, and claim it is broken. How broken would a fighter or warlock be if a party had 20 encounters per day? Here's something I haven't seen posted yet and I wonder how much merit it has. Could the perception of Psionics being broken stem from many of the people playing a Psionic character are more experienced gamers that want to try something new, as opposed to the newer, more inexperienced gamers playing the other classes and not having them as optimized as the Psi player? Anyway, just some food for thought. EDIT: Gah, for some reason I thought I was at the end of this thread. I need more sleep... Umm, right. No. you are on time... Aside from this being an answer I wanted to hear earlier. Add in that the Psion has all the material he needs in one book, compared to the wizard who needs to look into many, and we have a first pager.
Red_Decker 05-15-05, 06:31 AM	Umm, right. No. you are on time... Aside from this being an answer I wanted to hear earlier. Add in that the Psion has all the material he needs in one book, compared to the wizard who needs to look into many, and we have a first pager. Not true, wizards is adding new psionic content to the books they produce. I'm not sure about Races of Destiny but the other three races books have new stuff for Psions/PsyWars. Both of the terrain books have psionic stuff, and this trend will likely continue. I just realized I forgot to mention, the above character has 4 levels of Eldritch knight as well, so he's not even at the same CL/ML as the psion. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Norhg 05-15-05, 08:53 AM	Not true, wizards is adding new psionic content to the books they produce. I'm not sure about Races of Destiny but the other three races books have new stuff for Psions/PsyWars. Both of the terrain books have psionic stuff, and this trend will likely continue. I just realized I forgot to mention, the above character has 4 levels of Eldritch knight as well, so he's not even at the same CL/ML as the psion. Yes, there is 4 new Psion and One Psychic Warrior power in Races of Destiny. 1 Psion, 2 shared 5 Psychic Warrior in RoS. One each of shared, for psion and for pyschic warrior in RoW. Out of these Perfect Riposte and Perfect archery are such that I would consider taking them. Only Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity are such that it positvely augments more than one aspect of the Psion's nature. Synchronicity- Ready any action to be used during the next round. "oh wait, the wizard is throwing a spell? Damn, I interrupt it with a fully augmented energy missile". Otherwise... really, no. You don't need the races books to build a succesfull psion. (Comments on Races of Eberron? I don't have access to it.) Anyway, I don't know everything about how your Rogue encounter played out. I understand that neither the Wizard or Psion was absolutely favored over the other, with Evasion going on with the Wizard's spell and Resistance against the Psion's. But if the Psion could cover all enemies with most spells? I know that is the best way to rake up damage... But then he would have been dead much sooner if not for Black Tentacles.
Red_Decker 05-15-05, 09:11 AM	Yes, there is 4 new Psion and One Psychic Warrior power in Races of Destiny. 1 Psion, 2 shared 5 Psychic Warrior in RoS. One each of shared, for psion and pyschic warrior in RoW. Out of these Perfect Riposte and Perfect archery are such that I would consider taking them. Only Anticipatory strike and Synchronicity are such that it positvely augments more than one aspect of the Psion's nature. Synchronicity- Ready any action to be used during the next round. "oh wait, the wizard is throwing a spell? Damn, I interrupt it with a fully augmented energy missile". Otherwise... really, no. You don't need the races books to build a succesfull psion. It's still more. (Comments on Races of Eberron? I don't have access to it.) I don't have it I just know there was plenty of psi for the Kalashtar including some SK stuff. Anyway, I don't know everything about how your Rogue encounter played out. I understand that neither the Wizard or Psion was absolutely favored over the other, with Evasion going on with the Wizard's spell and Resistance against the Psion's. But if the Psion could cover all enemies with most spells? I know that is the best way to rake up damage... But then he would have been dead much sooner if not for Black Tentacles. Limiting their Reflex saves with Shadow binding a little bit helped reduce that and my Ball of Fangs [Basically fireball except Force damage and smaller burst] helped clean them up. She did Death Urge successfully kiling one guy, recall pain was her opener [Telepath]. her Energy cone was able to hit all of them which really sucked [I had to be to work shortly after that encounter] because of the Resistance. Overall they were equal. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Tempest Stormwind 05-15-05, 09:17 AM	(Comments on Races of Eberron? I don't have access to it.) Only two new powers (neither particularily nifty -- one is impressively named as Primal Fear but is nigh useless since it doesn't stack with other fear effects, and the other is essentially a Suggestion with a delayed event trigger). Quite a few new psionic feats, many being quite interesting, but all of them require you to be playing a kalashtar. Two psionic prestige classes, both are for kalashtar (one of them works with Inspired as well, and it was mentioned during the Gearing Up for Eberron articles -- the Quori Nightmare -- which means it was cut from the first Eberron book for space. It's good to see it here, with the full, many-page Races writeup). One of them is the first WotC soulknife class, too (its levels stack with Soulknife or Monk for unarmed strikes or mind blades). Two kalashtar TACTICAL feats, one of which is only for soulknives. A few other feats for soulknives only. Psionic racial substitution levels (changeling egoist, shifter wilder, kalashtar telepath, kalashtar soulknife). Some are pretty good (i.e. kalashtar soulknife 1), others are odd (kalashtar soulknife 6), and others seem WAY TOO GOOD (shifter wilder 1 -- add all the egoist powers to the wilder list? At NO COST?). By and large, very good.
Norhg 05-15-05, 09:39 AM	Limiting their Reflex saves with Shadow binding a little bit helped reduce that and my Ball of Fangs [Basically fireball except Force damage and smaller burst] helped clean them up. She did Death Urge successfully kiling one guy, recall pain was her opener [Telepath]. her Energy cone was able to hit all of them which really sucked [I had to be to work shortly after that encounter] because of the Resistance. Overall they were equal. Ugh... well, that was a save-vs-die spell in effect anyway... still in that situation? I don't know but, if you knew about the resistances beforehand wouldn't fire have been a better choice? You had already limited their saves and her Energy Cone should be higher DC than a fireball. Glad to hear you were equal anyway.
Vloorshad 05-15-05, 09:56 AM	That was a truly great post. I'm calling for sections of it to be added to the main myth frontposts. Add away. I'm just glad that I was able to contribute something. Umm, right. No. you are on time... Aside from this being an answer I wanted to hear earlier. Add in that the Psion has all the material he needs in one book, compared to the wizard who needs to look into many, and we have a first pager. Psionics is getting a trickle of new powers, feats, and PrCs in newer books, but nothing to write home about yet. As for the Arcane variety of spells, most would consider that a boon. That, and they'd just pick the spells most useful for the day to day and only go digging if they had a really special job or situation. Or, they could take the initiative to document the location (I did this when I played Arcane) of all those spells or compile them in one place. Either way, organizing them so that they're all easy to locate.
Red_Decker 05-15-05, 10:08 AM	Ugh... well, that was a save-vs-die spell in effect anyway... still in that situation? I don't know but, if you knew about the resistances beforehand wouldn't fire have been a better choice? You had already limited their saves and her Energy Cone should be higher DC than a fireball. Glad to hear you were equal anyway. That was actually the first energy she used. She poped out an AC on around round 3. We played it like a competition too it was great. Me the arrogant force knight [eldritch knight] her the shadowmind that loved to display the powers of her mind. [BTW I just remembered the shadowmind so I guess we were equal CL/ML] http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Rolk Flameraven 05-16-05, 02:27 AM	1 feat, level one 2 feats, one racial 3 feats, level one psion um... am I missing something this is a Halfling right? And Halflings don't get dodge as a feat at level one... so I'm still looking for the three feats one for level one and one for lvl1 psi. Your a lightfoot, so going with that your the base Halfling even in FR so were the hell are you getting this feat, I would really like to know as a three feat small Psi would kick so much ass. Ok G. Metamorphosis lasts for a min/lvl and you lose 200 exp, can only go to a 25HD monster due to the errata... Shapechange give you it for 10min/level and has a onetime cost of 1500gp and you can only go to a 25HD monster due to errata... Herm, I'd rather go for the 10/min that I only have to pay for once but thats just me I guess.
Talen Lee 05-16-05, 02:53 AM	Strongheart Halfling. Forgotten realms Campaign Sourcebook.
Vharuck 05-16-05, 03:25 AM	Ok, the halfling example was weak, but it brings up a good point: We are discussing the XPH's power level in the context that itis only being used with the other Core books (PHB, DMG, MM). Using material from other sources may actually be proof that the outside material is bad (and if it's from FR, chances are it will be overpowered outside of that Campaign Setting).
Norhg 05-16-05, 08:01 AM	one for level one and one for lvl1 psi. Your a lightfoot, so going with that your the base Halfling even in FR so were the hell are you getting this feat, I would really like to know as a three feat small Psi would kick so much ass. Ok G. Metamorphosis lasts for a min/lvl and you lose 200 exp, can only go to a 25HD monster due to the errata... Shapechange give you it for 10min/level and has a onetime cost of 1500gp and you can only go to a 25HD monster due to errata... Herm, I'd rather go for the 10/min that I only have to pay for once but thats just me I guess. I'm still going by the race i stated in Decker's writeup... strongheart halfling... who gets a bonus feat at level 1. There! That's your "kickass" psion. For the record, I don't think Blue fits at la+1. Ugh, wasn't Shapechange material component back in 3.0? Checked the SRD and it says focus... well anyway, what is "overpowering" about Greater metamorphosis is how the psion gets to keep his manifesting abilities. While the Wizard doesn't get to keep his spellcasting when changed. Then one can discuss if both spells aren't "unnecessarily good". Cool spell, cool power but why are they so defining for high level manifester/casters? Throw it and leave it going. "Whoops" Says the wizard, "too close to the enemies". Gogo supershape! "Whoops" says psion, accidently stomping an enemy into the ground. Ok, the halfling example was weak, but it brings up a good point: We are discussing the XPH's power level in the context that itis only being used with the other Core books (PHB, DMG, MM). Using material from other sources may actually be proof that the outside material is bad (and if it's from FR, chances are it will be overpowered outside of that Campaign Setting). That is my sentiment too. But I also wanted to point out what AC the psion can get from stacking powers. As a single class it is unsurpassed in attaining these heights of ac. Ugh, Decker is stupid. There, got it out of me :P. I think I hate him. Guess why? ... I'll explain another day. When at home. or such.
Alienfreak 05-16-05, 08:31 AM	what is "overpowering" about Greater metamorphosis is how the psion gets to keep his manifesting abilities. While the Wizard doesn't get to keep his spellcasting when changed. Then one can discuss if both spells aren't "unnecessarily good". Cool spell, cool power but why are they so defining for high level manifester/casters? Throw it and leave it going. "Whoops" Says the wizard, "too close to the enemies". Gogo supershape! "Whoops" says psion, accidently stomping an enemy into the ground. So you have only dumb Wizard players. Pitty you. This is why you take certain forms. Like Dragons, Giants or anything that is capable of spellcasting. Dragons can cast spells. And it is not stated that they do it without Verbal/Somatic Components. A Dragon is able to speak and seems to be capable of doing gestures with his claws.
carnivore 05-16-05, 09:11 AM	as Alienfreak said, or take construct forms...like Zodar, or Inevitable Quarut,etc... or the always fun..Chronotyrn(get to cast 2 spells per round(it has 2 voices)) :D
Norhg 05-16-05, 10:16 AM	So you have only dumb Wizard players. Pitty you. Ugh, should get "smarter" Wizards. Bet I could still screw them over anyway. One shouldn't be oblivious to the nerfpower of DM's . That is, if my martials won't start designing better powerguys too. (Actually, my martials are better at designing powerguys. But that extends to Frezied Berserker Monster Class guys. I get to take the caster power role... whenever I play, and then I am preferably psion. That or druid. I DM more than play.) Incorporeal would seem good. Grappling protection, flying and the ability to stay inside & away from enemies. Though. of course, one can always switch shape as a free action with shapechange! And the shape one would then get is preferably... the Chronotyrn. So if the Psion doesn't have this as the sole class any longer... what other pros does it have... Those obvious things like flexibility? Augmentation... I'll still consider us semi-balanced with the Wizards. Unparalled when it comes to nopreparation needed "extreme effects" ... like spamming damage in a round. And we have our self heals... Choosing discipline hurts us. That is it. Many psions are prepared for most situations with the ability to attack all 3 saves, guaranteed damage and many kinds of defenses. Add self-healing, our teleports, save/dies and utility (I love time hop) and I had call us upper tier of the classes. of course, people can work wonder with other classes too. Like Druid and others... (I have been a defender of the druid a long long time.), still we suffer from having access to less full manifesting prcs compared to wizards and their caster prcs. But that is the worst part of being a psion. The good parts outshine the bad ones.
Vharuck 05-16-05, 02:05 PM	I hope the good outshines the bad. Otherwise the class would just blow.
Norhg 05-16-05, 03:24 PM	I hope the good outshines the bad. Otherwise the class would just blow. Umm, fighter... fighter... and fighter... did I mention bard? You don't need the bard to be a good bard. (/jk...)
Vharuck 05-16-05, 03:48 PM	Well, the fighter can be good if done well, if the DM tailors some encounters to fit the fighter better (most encounters fit casters better almost by default), and at low levels the fighter rocks. Don't go bashing the bard. It wasn't meant to be a combat class or the best at anything. He can just do everything.
Omega13 05-16-05, 07:47 PM	While the Wizard doesn't get to keep his spellcasting when changed. Noticing a wizard polymorphing into a shape that forbids spellcasting leads me to question the player's ability to convincingly RP a character of genius intelligence, if you get my drift.
smrtgmp 05-17-05, 06:34 AM	Especially since there are a multitude of forms that are condusive to casting (war troll anyone?). Once they get PaO and Shapechange, they can assume the shape of various outsiders and become far stronger in the process while their casting abilities reamin unhampered. I've never seen anyone claim that arcane shapechanging is underpowerd. Quite the contrary.
Norhg 05-17-05, 09:53 AM	Especially since there are a multitude of forms that are condusive to casting (war troll anyone?). Once they get PaO and Shapechange, they can assume the shape of various outsiders and become far stronger in the process while their casting abilities reamin unhampered. I've never seen anyone claim that arcane shapechanging is underpowerd. Quite the contrary. No, now I'm starting to think it "overpowered"... Something like the Caster's Apotheosis.
Alienfreak 05-17-05, 12:15 PM	Shapechange is just as overpowerd as the power Greater Metamorphosis. But GM costs 200 exp. Shapechange has a focus of 1500 gp. What is a 1500 gp focus for an lvl 17 character!?
Aracor 05-17-05, 07:53 PM	I'm going to go for a few points that I don't think have been addressed yet, and I'm going to reiterate a few things that I agree with. I'll also focus mostly on the psion/wilder because I don't know nearly as much about the psychic warrior. More than this limit, Psionic characters have to pay for every extra point of damage they do. Unlike Wizards, Sorcerers, Druids and Clerics, the Psionic powers do not freely scale in damage. A 10th level psion manifesting the Psionic equivalent of Fireball does not do 10d6 damage as a 10th level wizard does, he does 5d6, unless he pays an extra 5 power points, effectively manifesting that power twice. This type of augmentation is what keeps psionics from being overpowered, as the power point reserve held by manifesting class is finite and, for some classes, extremely limited. I keep seeing this as a disadvantage. However, I don't agree with that entirely. While I agree that in some ways it's a disadvantage, it's also a huge advantage in other ways. You're right that most casters have spells that freely scale, but they only scale to a certain point. Eventually, the lower-level spells just don't hold water to really affecting high-level opponents. Eventually, a 17.5 damage magic missile just isn't going to really affect an opponent, in which case the low-level slots are sitting there unused or once the caster has used up all of their big guns. With the psion's ability to augment powers, even if they've only got 20 PP left, they can still channel it into a single hard hit. If a caster only has a few spell levels left, it's a few magic missiles, a scorching ray or two, and while they'll do a lot of damage eventually; the psion can still unleash it in one blast. Basically, this gives a psion a great deal more control over how much power they put in, which makes it tougher judgement to decide precisely how much power to put in, and they don't need to blast maximum power every time. But they can control it. This flexibility also means that if necessary, a psion can actually use their highest-level powers more than once or twice a day the first time they get them, unlike a wizard, who will generally be limited to one slot, plus one bonus for having a high intelligence if they have that; and then they're done. A 13th level psion who just got decerebrate can use it until they run out of power points. I chose that one just because I like the name. :) The other powers that are not direct Psionic versions of spells typically give flexibility to the Psionic characters due to their limited options to choose from. Further, augmented powers count as essentially higher powers due to how much the Psionic character is paying to manifest them. True. But this also keeps even low-level powers useful to the end. As I said, a first-level really doesn't help a level 20 wizard much, but as long as a psion has the power points, they can make even a first level energy ray painful. It should be noted that augmented powers always cost the base power level, not the level at which a normal power would cost that augmented cost. For example, Energy Ray, a 1st level power, augmented for 8 power points for a final cost of 9 power points, is still a first level power in terms of PR and Globe of Invulnerability (if you use transparency). This is definitely more of a mixed blessing than a disadvantage. While you're right, an energy way, no matter how well augmented, won't actually penetrate a globe of invulnerability, it's still considered a 1st level power for being grappled. Which means that the concentration DC to use an energy ray point-blank in someone's face when they're grappling you is still only 21, and it can deal 20d6 damage. If another caster wants to do that much damage, they'll need to a higher concentration check. Admittedly, it's generally easy at level 20, but mid-levels that makes a big difference. Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary. I won't reiterate this every time you said it, but the fact that it's only available to a specific discipline does NOT make it balanced. All this means is that they won't get access to every really good discipline power, but they'll still get at least one. It should still be compared fairly to other abilities of a comparable level, rather than saying "since only this discipline gets it, it's ok for it to be significantly more powerful than everything else of its level". Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. That's twice now you've suggested house rules to this power. While I'll admit that one thing too powerful does not make an entire book broken, it sounds as if you're AGREEING that this power is too much RAW. The save DC on Energy Missile has been widely contested, but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end. If you are uncomfortable with Energy Missile's save progression, modify it to 1:2 as the normal energy powers progress. An official errata changing the save DC to 1:2 is expected by many, viewed as not terribly unlikely by more, and only argued against by a smaller group. Whether most saving throws are too low at the high end isn't the purpose of this thread. This is a question of overpowered compared to the rest of the core rules, and the scaling of that particular power IS. As I said, I don't think one power alone makes the entire system overpowered, but it certainly appears that this particular power is, and even Bacris appears to agree. While there are four versions of every energy power, one for cold, fire, electricity and sonic each, the fact is that no matter which version you use, you are still using an energy type, which many creatures become immune to in later levels. While the Psion does have the versatility of 4 options, fire, cold, electricity, and sonic, the two strongest, fire and cold, are also the two most commonly resisted or immune. Electricity is another that is a common immunity, and sonic is balanced by decreasing the damage per die. The option of Force powers tends to halve the damage output of the Energy powers, and comes in much fewer choices. What this means is that you're effectively getting four powers for the price of one. Notwithstanding the fact that the commonly resisted elements are stronger for psionics than they are magic, i.e. +1 damage per die on fire, and you can at will change the save from a reflex to a fortitude save to deal with evasive enemies simply by changing the element. And just to add insult to injury, according to the new FAQ, psionic sonic damage is the ONLY damage that completely ignores hardness. Some argue that the fact that Psionic characters can decide on the fly what energy to use is unbalanced, but the problem with this argument is that the Psionic classes suffers from extreme lack of options. They have very few choices for powers. The Psion only stays slightly ahead of the Sorcerer until later levels, when the Sorcerer has more spells known than the Psion has powers known, and the Wilder has even fewer than that. By giving this flexibility, it keeps the Psion from being a "one trick pony" and making their limited options entirely useless in the wrong situation. The wizard can counter this by preparing new spells (given enough time, granted), but the Psion does not have this option. And yet resistance and/or immunity to ALL elements is all-but unheard of. Which means that if the wizard has the wrong element, he's screwed, barring feats and special abilities, whereas the psion should pretty much always have the right element for the job. This also allows the wilder to get away with one or two energy powers to do their entire job, making them a lot more flexible. The sorcerer needs to have several, and since the sorcerer's spells only scale to a limited extent, they need to keep getting better ones as they get higher level, otherwise they'll fall behind the curve. Once again, it's making what's seemingly limited more versatile. 1. Telepath-only: by restricting it to only Telepaths or requiring a 9th level or higher non-Telepath to use a feat, access to this power is limited or costly to a character 2. Manifester level - 6 for manifesting: Powers at -6 Manifester levels will typically not have a high enough saving throw to be useful if using offensive powers, will not do a substantial amount of damage, or are buff/utility-type powers REGARDLESS of being limited, it's still more actions. Someone said that 10d6 followed by 10d6 (with 3.0 haste, etc) was not nearly as useful as 10d6 + 4d6. However, that's still 14d6 as opposed to 10d6 if you're not getting any extra actions, increasing damage potential by almost 50%. This still isn't taking into effect that you can still use a quickened power with your main mind, increasing damage even more. 6. Limited Power Points: A Psionic character, as stressed above, has an extremely limited amount of power points to draw from. By manifesting this power and then further drawing from the pool to manifest extra powers per round, the Psionic character is burning out at roughly 1.5 the normal rate. In a multiple-encounter per day environment, this character will be nearly worthless in the last encounter if "abusing" this power. Yes, you'll suffer burnout faster, but you'll also in some ways use less resources because your enemies won't be able to do as much damage to you or your party members. If it would normally take you 4 rounds to do enough damage to kill someone, and you can do it in 2 round instead, that's still going to result in less damage being dealt, less problems being caused, and in the end, you'll probably have burned about the same number of power points, the difference being that you haven't taken as much damage, punishment, dispels, etc; probably saving you some resources in the long run. Answer: While Vigor has one of the best HP / PP ratios when comparing similar healing-type spells converted into power points, it is offset by the fact that it is a) self only and b) temporary hit points. Temporary hit points do not stack with each other, they overlap. What this means is that unless you manifest a stronger version of Vigor than the temporary HP you have remaining, you gain no benefit, and actually waste PP if you manifest Vigor while still under the effect of a previous manifestation. I'm missing the place where this is a disadvantage. Temporary hit points can easily be seen as better than healing, because it will help you to absorb a hit that would flat out kill you normally, because temporary hit points are deducted first. And while you can't use vigor several times to get sickening numbers of temporary hit points, you can simply make more of them when they run out, while still protecting yourself from real damage. Myth 13: Psychic Reformation is overpowered Answer: Psychic Reformation is one of the most heatedly debated power in the XPH. There are two ways to balance this power if you see it being abused: So...is this one actually a myth, or is this another one where you're actually agreeing that it's overpowered? Once again, you're suggesting fixes to it, and I would assume that's because you actually see it as broken. Correct me if I'm wrong. Answer: If you also believe that the Mystic Theurge and Psychic Theurge are overpowered, then you may have an argument. Otherwise, I suggest looking at the Mystic Theurge prestige class which does the same thing for Divine / Arcane that the Cerebremancer does for Arcane / Psionics. One argument against the Cerebremancer is that they have synergy that the other classes don't, since a Psion / Wizard gains multiple benefits from a high intelligence and similarly for a Sorceror / Wilder with Charisma. The important part to note is that at the level a Cerebremancer can be entered, the character is 7th level and only has access to 3rd level spells and powers. Meanwhile, a straight Wizard will have 4th level spells and another bonus feat. The Cerebremancer gives up progression rate and a high caster level for increased flexibility at a lower power. Yet that's true of the mystic theurge and psychic theurge as well, and they still don't have the synergy by only needing either int or charisma instead of both. Wouldn't that mean that this one IS more powerful? Answer: Astral Construct - first and foremost, is Shaper only. All other classes / disciplines must use a feat to access this power. Second, Boost Construct, while nice, is yet another feat a Shaper / Psion must spend of their limited 12 / 13 (if human) feats in their career. The Astral Construct is not all that different from Summon Nature's Ally / Monsters of the same level as the augmented power. You must keep in mind that druids get 9 different Summon Nature's Ally, while the Psion must augment his to get the nicer ones, effectively making a 3 pp Astral Construct equal to Summon Nature's Ally II / Summon Monster II. Yet once again, due to augmentation, this is one power whereas if the sorcerer or wizard want to keep up, they need to get 9 distinct ones. But this is not specifically a problem with Astral Construct, as I said above, it's an advantage of augmentation, which is apparently entirely a 'weakness'. Answer: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is Mind-Affecting. This is very, very, very important and usually overlooked. Many, many, many creatures in D&D are immune to mind-affecting effects. Undead, constructs, mindless, innate immunities, buffs, etc. Yes, this power is nice, but it is easily negated by having mindless / immune enemies. Situtationally being very good does not make a power too strong - it means it is situational. Harm type spells, conversely, are Negative Energy - which many, many more creatures are not immune to, making it far more likely to work. I think you'll find that the majority of creatures are NOT immune to mind-affecting spells. And if you run into some that are, you simply don't use Hostile Empathic Transfer. There are other options to use. However, when it works, it's REALLY nice. I also feel compelled to mention that negative energy spells are completely negated by a fourth level spell (Death Ward) whereas it takes a level 8 spell to actually stop Hostile Empathic Transfer for someone other than yourself. That's costly even for a level 20 caster to put on the entire party; just like it's costly for a psion to use all of the buff powers they have to maximum effect. Which makes it not bloody likely to find EVERYTHING immune to mind-affecting powers. Further balancing this power is the fact that the damage dealt is limited to how much damage the manifester themselves is suffering from. A psion / psychic warrior at full health cannot use it, as they have no damage to transfer. As Telepaths tend to not have high number of HP due to d4 hit dice, a 5th level Telepath who manifests this power is probably not going to do the full damage, unless they're near death or higher level. Psychic Warriors, who will have the larger HP pool, but gain this power later in level, are limited in usage of this power by the power point cost and their power point pool. While this is definitely a nice power, and at times can be very devastating, it does have several limiting factors. Let me get this straight. You're saying that the balance to this power is the fact that if you use it too much, you'll run out of power points?!?! That's a balance to ANY power!! It doesn't negate the fact that this particular power is not only healing you, but it's harming the enemy at the same time. Basically you're getting double the effectiveness out of this power. And while I'll admit that a 5th level telepath probably won't get full effectiveness out of it, it's still a way to combine healing yourself with hurting your enemy. On a further point, a wizard is not forced to specialize, a psion is. Of course, there isn't ANY disadvantage to a psion specializing, so isn't that kind of a moot point? And, I think I'm spent on your myths. Although I'm not sure where anticipatory strike or synchronicity are, so I wasn't able to comment on those. However, it looks like I took exception to about 2/3 of the myths you were attempting to debunk that I wasn't ignoring due to their involvement of mostly psychic warriors, which as I said, I haven't seen in action so I'm not sure about how they work. But yeah, it certainly appears that psionics have their problems. ~Aracor
DisposableHero_ 05-17-05, 10:31 PM	I keep seeing this as a disadvantage. However, I don't agree with that entirely. While I agree that in some ways it's a disadvantage, it's also a huge advantage in other ways. You're right that most casters have spells that freely scale, but they only scale to a certain point. Eventually, the lower-level spells just don't hold water to really affecting high-level opponents. Eventually, a 17.5 damage magic missile just isn't going to really affect an opponent, in which case the low-level slots are sitting there unused or once the caster has used up all of their big guns. There are a number of low level spells that do not lose a lot of effectiveness as the character proceeds into later levels, and scale quite nicely into something effective at every point in a 20th level progression. It is not a terribly strenuous process for a wizard who has used his work horse low levels spells to the extent of their usefullness to learn the more open ended low level spells like Silent Image (although it is strong at any level) and Ray of Enfeeblement. And while these may not compare to a psion's low level powers fully augmented, they shouldn't as they use an inconsequentially small number of the wizard's daily resources. Similarly a sorcerer is afforded the luxury of switching his lower level spells known to allow him to get the maximum use out of his spells regardless of their level. Furthurmore, as far as damage is concerned even high level wizards and sorcerers get a monumental amount of damage out of their 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells where a psion/wilder is, as stated before, forced to pay for every point. Low level powers with augment are strong at the later levels to ensure that a psion doesn't fall behind in selecting his low level powers to ensure they are useful later. If damage worries you, these threads have sported numerous sets of damage per spell, per day, per equivalent resources spent comparisons between arcane magic and psionics (I've done several myself), the arcane magic usually comes out marginally ahead (in optimized cases) which serves to balance the psion's unquestionably greater flexibility. With the psion's ability to augment powers, even if they've only got 20 PP left, they can still channel it into a single hard hit. If a caster only has a few spell levels left, it's a few magic missiles, a scorching ray or two, and while they'll do a lot of damage eventually; the psion can still unleash it in one blast. Basically, this gives a psion a great deal more control over how much power they put in, which makes it tougher judgement to decide precisely how much power to put in, and they don't need to blast maximum power every time. But they can control it. This flexibility also means that if necessary, a psion can actually use their highest-level powers more than once or twice a day the first time they get them, unlike a wizard, who will generally be limited to one slot, plus one bonus for having a high intelligence if they have that; and then they're done. A 13th level psion who just got decerebrate can use it until they run out of power points. I chose that one just because I like the name. :) No real argument here, this is a tempting trap that often causes players unfamiliar with psions to misuse their woefully limited resources and tends to be more of a burden to new players than an advantage. With experienced players though, you are right, but if psionics didn't have some advatages of arcane magic, it would hardly be worth playing. I conceed this is an advatage that psions have, they are more flexible, and a well played psion is a thing of beauty and precision, but their raw power is slightly lacking of an arcane caster, and their options are certainly less. True. But this also keeps even low-level powers useful to the end. As I said, a first-level really doesn't help a level 20 wizard much, but as long as a psion has the power points, they can make even a first level energy ray painful. As I stated above, there are a number of effects (though none of them direct damage) that translate well from low level spells into high level games, a wizard, being able to learn an unlimited number of spells, and a sorcerer being able to trade in his low levels when they've past their expiry date aren't that far behind a psion slinging 20d6 energy rays, and their high level damage spells pack just as much omph, and give more bang for the buck invested in them. This is definitely more of a mixed blessing than a disadvantage. While you're right, an energy way, no matter how well augmented, won't actually penetrate a globe of invulnerability, it's still considered a 1st level power for being grappled. Which means that the concentration DC to use an energy ray point-blank in someone's face when they're grappling you is still only 21, and it can deal 20d6 damage. If another caster wants to do that much damage, they'll need to a higher concentration check. Admittedly, it's generally easy at level 20, but mid-levels that makes a big difference. Actually, its easy at mid levels. The highest level spell you can cast is half your level minus one. The number of ranks you can have in maxed out concentration is your level plus three. Thus: DC = 20 + spell level = 20 + 1/2 level = (a) Concentration check = ranks + con mod + others + X where X is what you must roll to succeed assuming there is nothing else.... Concentration check = level + 3 + con (we'll assume a worst case of 0) + X = (b) success occurs when (a) = (b) so... 20 + level/2 = level + 3 + X X = 17 - level/2 where X is the roll needed to concentrate on your highest level spell in a grapple the formula to concentrate on a 1st level power is: X = 18 - level At level 1 they are obviously both 17, at level 10 the psion has 8, the wizard 12, at level 20 the psion has -2, the wizard has 7. Thats the length and breadth of the difference in a not at all optimized case. If either is worried about the con score (and why not with their hit points being a weakness) and willing to take skill focus, then a concentration check is childs play at level 10 and above (arguably before). And a wizard never has to cast more than freedom of movement to get himself out of a grapple anyway, which further shrinks the difference I won't reiterate this every time you said it, but the fact that it's only available to a specific discipline does NOT make it balanced. All this means is that they won't get access to every really good discipline power, but they'll still get at least one. It should still be compared fairly to other abilities of a comparable level, rather than saying "since only this discipline gets it, it's ok for it to be significantly more powerful than everything else of its level". First, energy missile is not so terribly out of whack with its peers as everyone seems to beleive. Scorching Ray keeps up pretty much fine in single target use. The targeting of energy missile is perhaps its greatest strength, and while this puts it a cut above in some situations, it will not always be the case. This makes it situationally powerful, not overpowered. The fact about it that gets everyone up in arms is the DC, which although potent, is not tied to a game over effect, its tied to taking full damage, which while signifcant, is not the be all and end all of high level play (far from it) and until high level play, it functions on a roughly equal level with high powered (but not overpowered) damaging spells. Its targeting makes it situationally awsome, but that alone does not making overpowered, the single target damaging effects are all situationally awsome (when you have only one target) as are ray effects (when you have an easy to hit touch AC) which don't have saves tied to their damage. Situationally strong, not overpowered. Second, the arguments about discipline powers and restricted aspects seem to be misinterpereted a lot. They are first and formost there to address the constant arguments from people who do not read the rules, and come to these boards complaining of cross-discipline power combinations that are either impossible (with 9th levels) or require the expenditure of feats and come in at later levels than they expect. Furthermore, forcing a psion to choose a discipline and giving them only a subset of the powerful powers (as discipline powers tend to be and SHOULD be, at least a small cut above the rest, or there would be no reason to take them over a general spell that performs a similar function) and requiring them to take feats to get power on other lists is balancing. It limits powerful combinations, by forcing the psion to expend non-refundable resources (feats) to acquire them. Not overpowered combinations, just powerful ones. A discipline power is usually a cut above the non-discipline powers of its level, but that doesn't mean it is a cut above the arcane spells of that level either. Note how teleport, fly, charm, and dominate's psionic versions all appear as discipline powers. They are perhaps a cut above the other psion powers of their level, but they are all replications of arcane spells, almost exactly. That's twice now you've suggested house rules to this power. While I'll admit that one thing too powerful does not make an entire book broken, it sounds as if you're AGREEING that this power is too much RAW. One of the reasons for this thread and its ancestor is to provide a basis for DMs new to the system who may have played into the strengths of a psionic character their first time around without realizing it to adjust their thinking with regards to psionics to keep them from getting soured to the system. Pointing out that a power is strong (not overpowered, just strong) and suggesting ways it might be toned down if the DM finds it a little too good is not admitting that the power has too much going for it. It merely admits that it may not fit in some peoples games, and there are some ways to adjust so those people do not abandon psionics because of one or two bad experiences. Whether most saving throws are too low at the high end isn't the purpose of this thread. This is a question of overpowered compared to the rest of the core rules, and the scaling of that particular power IS. As I said, I don't think one power alone makes the entire system overpowered, but it certainly appears that this particular power is, and even Bacris appears to agree. Again, strong does not mean overpowered. Psion's are strong as direct damage casters, it doesn't make them overpowered, it just means thats one of the things they can do. A barbarian is strong at melee combat, doesn't make him overpowered, just good at something. Energy missile is a strong direct damage power, it is a contributing factor to psion's being strong damage dealers. Its saving throw is high, and that makes it a strong choice in some situations (like when facing monks, who have very good saves, evasion and a high touch AC making them hard to pin down with direct damage). How often those situations come up is up to the DM. I am DMing currently, and one of my players is playing a kineticist, and her main offense is energy missile. At level 5, it toasted an entire CR 5 encounter in one shot, not a big deal though, as a fireball would have done the same thing, she recognized a good time to let fly an energy missile and made the most of it. A level later when they faced a 7th level wizard, his lesser globe of invulnerability made her energy missile look pretty silly. What this means is that you're effectively getting four powers for the price of one. Notwithstanding the fact that the commonly resisted elements are stronger for psionics than they are magic, i.e. +1 damage per die on fire, and you can at will change the save from a reflex to a fortitude save to deal with evasive enemies simply by changing the element. And just to add insult to injury, according to the new FAQ, psionic sonic damage is the ONLY damage that completely ignores hardness. And yet resistance and/or immunity to ALL elements is all-but unheard of. Which means that if the wizard has the wrong element, he's screwed, barring feats and special abilities, whereas the psion should pretty much always have the right element for the job. This also allows the wilder to get away with one or two energy powers to do their entire job, making them a lot more flexible. The sorcerer needs to have several, and since the sorcerer's spells only scale to a limited extent, they need to keep getting better ones as they get higher level, otherwise they'll fall behind the curve. Once again, it's making what's seemingly limited more versatile. If a psion couldn't do at least something that an arcane caster could not, he would be both bland and underpowered in relation to the arcane caster. Psionic energy powers offer the choice of energies for a number of reasons. First, their power selection is limited, and unlike sorcerers they were not given the option to trade out powers for other powers when they leveled up, they were given augmentation and the energy switching instead. Second, psionic energy powers, because of the nature of augmentation are not stronger than magic equivalent, they are weaker. For the same amount of resources, wizard/sorc free scaling gives them a vast edge in the damage catagory. Even comparing maximum damages favors the wizards because of the existance of metamagic rods, spell power abilities, and a host of other spellcasting enhancers that have no psionic equivalents. An energy missile at 3d6+3 is about the same as a scorching ray at 4d6 for single targets. The missile gets more peripheral benefits (better targeting prospects, better scaling if you don't consider the extra cost involved, a higher damage cap) and the scorching ray gets the benefit of not taking extra power for a mid level wizard to toast his foes with. This makes them different, but does not make the psionic power overpowered. Third, while the on the fly energy choice is appealing and an advantage of the psion, it is not the be all and end all for this power. If a DM lets players know the exact strengths and weaknesses of the enemies they are facing he's asking for trouble weather there is a psion in his campaign or not. If you don't let your players metagame, these advantages are best guess advantages (yeah, they will likely figure out to hit that white dragon with a fire missile, but the no brainer's aren't the issue, since the wizard's not about to hit him up with a cone of cold now is he). REGARDLESS of being limited, it's still more actions. Someone said that 10d6 followed by 10d6 (with 3.0 haste, etc) was not nearly as useful as 10d6 + 4d6. However, that's still 14d6 as opposed to 10d6 if you're not getting any extra actions, increasing damage potential by almost 50%. This still isn't taking into effect that you can still use a quickened power with your main mind, increasing damage even more. You're really hung up on the damage here. Psions make decent blasters, no argument, but being a blaster is not all that unbalancing as well optimized warrior types can do similar amounts of damage to their foes, and do it all day long. Schism isn't just an extra limited action, its a severly limited extra action. Schisms manifest at manifester level minus six. That means their spells expire faster, don't do as much damage, don't have as much range etc. It means they flat out can't manifest the psion's best powers, their prospects of overcoming spell resistance/power resistance are terrible... Do I really have to go on. Schism is near worthless. WORTHLESS. It can't come up with one tenth the advantages of taking the leadership feat and taking a psionic cohort, if it appears on a power list it is a waste of space as its only really good for wasting your power points and wasting the round in which you manifest it. I don't know what the heck people get so worked up about schism for. If you can find a power that is meaningful in combat, has no important level dependant effect, and costs 6 power points less than your max manifester level... QUICKEN IT and save yourself the wasted power points. Yes, you'll suffer burnout faster, but you'll also in some ways use less resources because your enemies won't be able to do as much damage to you or your party members. If it would normally take you 4 rounds to do enough damage to kill someone, and you can do it in 2 round instead, that's still going to result in less damage being dealt, less problems being caused, and in the end, you'll probably have burned about the same number of power points, the difference being that you haven't taken as much damage, punishment, dispels, etc; probably saving you some resources in the long run. If schism were anywhere near meaningful, I'd be inclined to agree, and this is the one problem with nova strikes. They do save resources by limiting the potential for enemies to respond. That said, show me the DM that doesn't at least ocasionally use diversions, illusions, decoys, traps, or other strategic maneuvers to expend some of the parties expendable resources once in a while, and I'll ask him if I can join his campaign :D I'm missing the place where this is a disadvantage. Temporary hit points can easily be seen as better than healing, because it will help you to absorb a hit that would flat out kill you normally, because temporary hit points are deducted first. And while you can't use vigor several times to get sickening numbers of temporary hit points, you can simply make more of them when they run out, while still protecting yourself from real damage. There is no disadvantage at low levels, which is where this power is good. Heck it can save your arse from time to time, and certainly make up for a poorly thought out situation, it is easily replaced at higher levels by good strategy. The second a psion has to start spending actions and power points on vigor, he is forgoing precious actions he needs to use to disable the enemies. This is even hinted at in your previous point about defeating enemies quickly being a good way to conserve resources. As soon as a psion starts trading hits for vigor he is entering into a war of resource exhausion with his opponent, and because of the extremely limited nature of power points at every level, it is a war he is ill equipped to fight. So...is this one actually a myth, or is this another one where you're actually agreeing that it's overpowered? Once again, you're suggesting fixes to it, and I would assume that's because you actually see it as broken. Correct me if I'm wrong. This one is probably not a myth, its a case of really good flavor, combined with really crappy mechanics. The problem is that its potential for abuse, while not extreme, is the sum function of the power. If someone is using this power, they are abusing it, because there is not practical need where a character should want to re-write his previous levels, none. Its a great concept with terrible execution, similar to previous incarnations of psionics. The things bracis mentions are not ways to balance it, they are ways to discourage players from using (abusing) it without straight up banning it. Yet that's true of the mystic theurge and psychic theurge as well, and they still don't have the synergy by only needing either int or charisma instead of both. Wouldn't that mean that this one IS more powerful? More powerful, but again not overpowered. The dual caster bridge classes mentioned here are all weak. They require silly tricks involving prestige classes that are actually overpowered (like Ur-Priest) to actually produce characters that are stronger than single casters of equal level, and even then they don't compare to single full casters with prestige classes like incantatrix, archmage, and a number of others. Being more powerful than an underpowered class does not making something overpowered, in fact, I believe the cerebromancer is underpowered as well. As a further note, Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurges have the same single ability synergy, and have the benefit of other classes like geomancer to help patch up the last couple of levels. Yet once again, due to augmentation, this is one power whereas if the sorcerer or wizard want to keep up, they need to get 9 distinct ones. But this is not specifically a problem with Astral Construct, as I said above, it's an advantage of augmentation, which is apparently entirely a 'weakness'. Augmentation is not entirely a weakness, but powers designed to limit this weakness are not overpowering. The weakness of augmentation is more fundamental. And a wizard is not limited in the number of spells he can learn in his career, and the versatility of astral construct pales in comparison to that. I think you'll find that the majority of creatures are NOT immune to mind-affecting spells. And if you run into some that are, you simply don't use Hostile Empathic Transfer. There are other options to use. However, when it works, it's REALLY nice. It works really nice if you're dumb enough to let the tar get kicked out of you before you use it. Remember that the damage it deals is limited by the damage you've taken, a psion has a very limited budge of hit points and thus is much less capable of using this power to the effectiveness it portrays from one reading than a psychic warrior, who has a significantly more limited budge of power points than the psion, and will still, very rarely get the full effect from this power. I also feel compelled to mention that negative energy spells are completely negated by a fourth level spell (Death Ward) whereas it takes a level 8 spell to actually stop Hostile Empathic Transfer for someone other than yourself. That's costly even for a level 20 caster to put on the entire party; just like it's costly for a psion to use all of the buff powers they have to maximum effect. Which makes it not bloody likely to find EVERYTHING immune to mind-affecting powers. Just plain wrong. It takes a 4th level spell (Lesser Glove of Invulnerability) to stop a hostile empathic transfer dead in its tracks. Furthermore, when facing a psion, planning against this power specifically is easy, just plan to break the psion's glass jaw hit point total the first time to hit him. H.E.T won't help very much against a quickened dispel magic (for any lingering death wards) and a finger of death. Let me get this straight. You're saying that the balance to this power is the fact that if you use it too much, you'll run out of power points?!?! That's a balance to ANY power!! It doesn't negate the fact that this particular power is not only healing you, but it's harming the enemy at the same time. That is not the point of that section at all. He is saying that psychic warriors have an extremely limited budget of power points to work with, and they have better things to do with them than going to get beat up so they can gotcha their opponent with a well placed Hostile Empathic Transfer. On the psychic warrior side of things, vampiric blade will in most cases do a better job of keeping you hit points up while you smack around your enemy than H.E.T. will. I'd rather be crushing my opponents under the blade of my Expansioned Vampiric Great Sword than waiting for them to kick the crap out of me, but thats just my opinion. Of course, there isn't ANY disadvantage to a psion specializing, so isn't that kind of a moot point? No, the fact that 5/6ths of psions have to spend a feat to charm, dominate, fly, or teleport while every wizard or sorcerer can at no real cost has nothing to do with game balance at all. And, I think I'm spent on your myths. Although I'm not sure where anticipatory strike or synchronicity are, so I wasn't able to comment on those. However, it looks like I took exception to about 2/3 of the myths you were attempting to debunk that I wasn't ignoring due to their involvement of mostly psychic warriors, which as I said, I haven't seen in action so I'm not sure about how they work. But yeah, it certainly appears that psionics have their problems. Would have helped if you'd read the rest of the thread and the original thread so I wouldn't have to reiterate all this (which has btw been reiterated to the tune of 7 or 8 times per point at least) but I don't blame you, thats about 40 pages of debate to hash through.
Vharuck 05-17-05, 11:26 PM	A balancing factor of the Cerebramancer is the fact that Metamagic feats, while applicable to both arcane and divine spells, are not usable with powers. Same with Metapsionic feats. You basically have to take each feat twice to get the same effect as a Mystic Theurge. And yes, a 20 pp Energy Missile should be painful if I spent 20 friggin power points on it. It should hit the enemy, make me a sandwich, and do a dance for that cost. Some things about psionics are different. Being able to choose between four energy types is useful and different (not really, a simple feat allows wizards to do this). This thread was created to dispel myths, then we realized that some arguments over a power or two had a good basis. We then sucked it up, bit the bullet, admitted that it was abusable, and offered help. No need to rub our faces in the fact that we're big enough to admit some mistakes. Schism will cost you a lot of pp. A 10th level Telepath, to do the most damage in a round, does this: Round 1: Schism Round 2: Quickened power for 4d6, schism power for 4d6, normal power for 10d6. Wow. 18d6 damage in a round. Nice. Now let's look at the cost: 9+10+4+10= 33 power points! 33 power points to deal 18d6 damage. Plus the expenditure of a psionic focus. Let's look at it this way... Round 1: Quickened power for 4d6, normal power for 10d6. Move action to regain focus (requires a feat, or 2 if you have the psicrystal containment). Round 2: Quickened power for 4d6, normal power for 10d6. 28d6 damage over the same two rounds. Granted, it cost 40 pp, but it's a higher damage-to-cost ratio.
Bacris 05-17-05, 11:40 PM	So if I were to point out how broken Gate, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and other spels were and give options to bring them in line balance-wise, that means all spellcasting is broken? I'd suggest reading the rest of the thread. I've re-hashed most of this to death already. My main suggestion has always been to play, knowing how the rules actually work, and use 3-4 encounters per day (not combats, encounters). you'll find they are pretty darn well balanced.
carnivore 05-18-05, 07:15 AM	now with some new feats...arcane casters can focus on only one energy type and still affect everything: feats: Searing Spell(sandstorm)....allows any fire based spell to damage creatures immune to fire damage, double normal damage to cold creatures Piercing cold(frostburn)......allows cold spells to damage creatures immune to cold damage, double normal damage to fire creatures now and Arcane or Divine caster does not need to have any variety or energy types at all, just focus on ONE type and make sure it affects everything........there is no psionic equivilant to this feat. another reason Psionics are UNDERPOWERED :D
Alienfreak 05-18-05, 10:55 AM	Searing Spell(sandstorm)....allows any fire based spell to damage creatures immune to fire damage, double normal damage to cold creatures Piercing cold(frostburn)......allows cold spells to damage creatures immune to cold damage, double normal damage to fire creatures Those honestly suck. Try: Lord of the Uttercold (CA): Turns half of the Cold damage any spell with the [Cold] subscriptor does into negative energy damage. And it even takes a slot of the same level. There is truly no reason why not to do it ;)
Alienfreak 05-18-05, 11:00 AM	This works just fine with the Elemental Spellcasting (Cold) Feat and the Elemental Savant (Cold) Prestige Class ;)
Aracor 05-18-05, 11:07 AM	Shapechange has a focus of 1500 gp. What is a 1500 gp focus for an lvl 17 character!? Oh Oh! I know the answer! One sunder away from no shapechange? Low level powers with augment are strong at the later levels to ensure that a psion doesn't fall behind in selecting his low level powers to ensure they are useful later. If damage worries you, these threads have sported numerous sets of damage per spell, per day, per equivalent resources spent comparisons between arcane magic and psionics (I've done several myself), the arcane magic usually comes out marginally ahead (in optimized cases) which serves to balance the psion's unquestionably greater flexibility. Like I said, my main point here is that everyone kept saying that the fact psions have to keep paying for their powers to keep up is a disadvantage, and I wouldn't entirely agree with that. It's a mixed blessing at worst, not entirely a disadvantage. And like I said, this still gives even the wilder an advantage over the sorcerer, because while the sorcerer can switch out ONE spell every two levels starting with 4, (assuming they don't prestige) they still need to choose their spells just as carefully as you your powers; in some ways moreso because most of their lower-level spells need to stay flexible throughout. Like I said, if a sorcerer wants to stay as flexible as your simple psionic construct in regards to summons, they need to have NINE separate spells, or they need to use their entire selection of swaps to keep upgrading it. That leaves no flexibility for other spells that aren't working out for them. As I stated above, there are a number of effects (though none of them direct damage) that translate well from low level spells into high level games, a wizard, being able to learn an unlimited number of spells, and a sorcerer being able to trade in his low levels when they've past their expiry date aren't that far behind a psion slinging 20d6 energy rays, and their high level damage spells pack just as much omph, and give more bang for the buck invested in them. I'll reiterate, barring prestige classes, the sorcerer can swap out ONE spell every 2 levels starting at 4. Most of their spells can't have an expiration date, effectively one per level can. At level 1 they are obviously both 17, at level 10 the psion has 8, the wizard 12, at level 20 the psion has -2, the wizard has 7. Thats the length and breadth of the difference in a not at all optimized case... And a wizard never has to cast more than freedom of movement to get himself out of a grapple anyway, which further shrinks the difference A difference between 40% and 60% is certainly enough to be worthwhile IMHO, especially since a caster isn't great on hit points, so that one round may make the difference between success and failure. And you DO know that wizards/sorcerers are the only primary caster WITHOUT freedom of movement on their list, right? The fact about it that gets everyone up in arms is the DC, which although potent, is not tied to a game over effect, its tied to taking full damage, which while signifcant, is not the be all and end all of high level play (far from it) and until high level play, it functions on a roughly equal level with high powered (but not overpowered) damaging spells. Its targeting makes it situationally awsome, but that alone does not making overpowered, the single target damaging effects are all situationally awsome (when you have only one target) as are ray effects (when you have an easy to hit touch AC) which don't have saves tied to their damage. Situationally strong, not overpowered. Yes, the ability to target multiple creatures with it IS situationally powerful. However, having a DC substantially higher than than any other power or spell of a comperable level is not. Combine both of those together and it's not just situationally powerful any more. It's powerful in a situation that's not optimal for it (just attacking one target), and it's disturbingly powerful when in an optimal situation (attacking up to 5), especially when you're attacking something with a high touch AC. Combine that with the fact that you can negate evasion, it's starting to look a bit over the top compared to anything else. Third, while the on the fly energy choice is appealing and an advantage of the psion, it is not the be all and end all for this power. If a DM lets players know the exact strengths and weaknesses of the enemies they are facing he's asking for trouble weather there is a psion in his campaign or not. If you don't let your players metagame, these advantages are best guess advantages (yeah, they will likely figure out to hit that white dragon with a fire missile, but the no brainer's aren't the issue, since the wizard's not about to hit him up with a cone of cold now is he). All it really takes to metagame is a bunch of knowledge skills. And the point is that a wizard may only HAVE a cone of cold when they're up against a white dragon. A psion doesn't have that problem, because they can use any type of energy that's convenient. When you've got 4 out of 5 bundled into a single power, there's a real good chance that at least one of them is going to work. You're really hung up on the damage here. Psions make decent blasters, no argument, but being a blaster is not all that unbalancing as well optimized warrior types can do similar amounts of damage to their foes, and do it all day long. Schism isn't just an extra limited action, its a severly limited extra action. Schisms manifest at manifester level minus six. That means their spells expire faster, don't do as much damage, don't have as much range etc. It means they flat out can't manifest the psion's best powers, their prospects of overcoming spell resistance/power resistance are terrible... Do I really have to go on. I used damage because it was the example given. Barring that, you can blast with your main mind while still popping off a vigor as a buffer, or concealing amorpha, or some other random buff...I'm at work so I don't have my books; or I could get more specific. If you're targeting yourself, resistance doesn't matter, and short-duration powers it doesn't seem a huge deal for it to last a couple of rounds or minutes shorter if it will save your bacon or allow you to end the fight faster. Yes, I will admit that quicken is better. But that's the difference between a FEAT and a POWER. And as I said, yes, you'll burn yourself out, but that's still getting three actions per round. That's DANGEROUS. If schism were anywhere near meaningful, I'd be inclined to agree, and this is the one problem with nova strikes. They do save resources by limiting the potential for enemies to respond. That said, show me the DM that doesn't at least ocasionally use diversions, illusions, decoys, traps, or other strategic maneuvers to expend some of the parties expendable resources once in a while, and I'll ask him if I can join his campaign Hey, I never said it would work all the time. There is NO strategy that will work all the time under a good DM, simply because situations change. However, saying that you 'could' be wasting those power points on a decoy does not make the power balanced. I'm sorry, but extra actions are good, regardless of the cost. Augmentation is not entirely a weakness, but powers designed to limit this weakness are not overpowering. The weakness of augmentation is more fundamental. And a wizard is not limited in the number of spells he can learn in his career, and the versatility of astral construct pales in comparison to that. I specifically mentioned sorcerers vs wilders here, but I'll run with this anyway, because this particular argument is starting to bug me. Wizards ARE limited. They're limited by time, money, and availability of spells. To be fair, that's campaign dependent, but when a wizard is paying 100 gp per page to scribe a spell into his spellbook, ASSUMING that they find the spell instead of buying it, that adds up fast. As a wizard player who loves versatility, trust me; that adds up incredibly fast. In a campaign where scrolls were readily available, I've had characters blow over 10,000 gold pieces on scrolls and and spend weeks scribing them into my book. If the time and money isn't available, wizards are going to be almost as limited as psions. As I said, that's campaign dependent, but it's not like wizards can just blink and have all the spells ever made in their spellbooks. That's for divine casters... It works really nice if you're dumb enough to let the tar get kicked out of you before you use it...That is not the point of that section at all. He is saying that psychic warriors have an extremely limited budget of power points to work with, and they have better things to do with them than going to get beat up so they can gotcha their opponent with a well placed Hostile Empathic Transfer. This seems kind of a bad example to me. Dumb enough to let the tar get kicked out of you? It sounds as if you're saying that someone capable of dealing out incredible damage but can't take much (glass cannon) is dumb if they take damage...despite the fact that they're probably going to be a priority target BECAUSE of their capability of wrecking things so badly, and the fact that they can die if you focus on them. I'm suggesting that it's probably too powerful as a "Oh no I'm hurt really bad spell through no fault of my own and what should I do?" spell. It allows you to heal yourself AND hurt the enemy at the same time. As I said, this is part of a balancing act again, how badly can you get hurt before the next hit will kill you kind of thing, but it's still doubly effective than healing yourself or simply hurting the enemy. On the psychic warrior side of things, vampiric blade will in most cases do a better job of keeping you hit points up while you smack around your enemy than H.E.T. will. I'd rather be crushing my opponents under the blade of my Expansioned Vampiric Great Sword than waiting for them to kick the crap out of me, but thats just my opinion. As I said, I'm not as familiar with the warrior, so you could be right here. I play mostly casters and rogues, not up-front fighters. No, the fact that 5/6ths of psions have to spend a feat to charm, dominate, fly, or teleport while every wizard or sorcerer can at no real cost has nothing to do with game balance at all. Before I respond to this, I'll admit that I'm doing the same thing...but: I keep hearing about how psionics are different than magic, and then here's the complaint when the different goes a direction that doesn't give the psion more power. Although I hadn't considered that, it basically means that a psion should almost be compared more to a specialist wizard than a normal wizard, because they are losing out on a few staples. Although they DO get greater teleport without being specifically nomads. It's a few levels higher, but they still get the movement staple. The rest I'm not sure, as I said, I don't have my books available at the moment. Would have helped if you'd read the rest of the thread and the original thread so I wouldn't have to reiterate all this (which has btw been reiterated to the tune of 7 or 8 times per point at least) but I don't blame you, thats about 40 pages of debate to hash through. Actually I did, I was bored at work. While I happily admitted that some of what I posted was a rehash because I agreed with it, and some because I didn't think they'd been answered, a great deal of my complaints hadn't been addressed as of yet. And yes, a 20 pp Energy Missile should be painful if I spent 20 friggin power points on it. It should hit the enemy, make me a sandwich, and do a dance for that cost. But why should it be BETTER than other powers and spells that have the same or similar cost? That's the question I'm trying to figure out. Some things about psionics are different. Being able to choose between four energy types is useful and different (not really, a simple feat allows wizards to do this). I'm talking about core here. And it's FOUR feats, not one. And a wizard STILL can't do it on the fly. This thread was created to dispel myths, then we realized that some arguments over a power or two had a good basis. We then sucked it up, bit the bullet, admitted that it was abusable, and offered help. No need to rub our faces in the fact that we're big enough to admit some mistakes. The only reason I brought that up is that they're still labeled as myths. If it's true, wouldn't that make it not a myth? Especially psychic reformation, the entire 'answer' is how to fix it. Round 1: Schism Round 2: Quickened power for 4d6, schism power for 4d6, normal power for 10d6. Wow. 18d6 damage in a round. Nice. Now let's look at the cost: 9+10+4+10= 33 power points! 33 power points to deal 18d6 damage. Plus the expenditure of a psionic focus. Let's look at it this way... Round 1: Quickened power for 4d6, normal power for 10d6. Move action to regain focus (requires a feat, or 2 if you have the psicrystal containment). Round 2: Quickened power for 4d6, normal power for 10d6. You mean like how a wizard wastes four spell slots (i.e. quicken) to deal damage or accomplish things faster? And that a sorcerer can't do it at ALL? Yes, higher action rates cost more. It's up to you to decide in an individual situation whether or not it's worth it. The point I believe I was trying to make is that psions seem to have more options available in that regard than other casters. In the first example, you're spending almost twice as many power points on the second chunk of damage than normal, for doing it almost twice as fast at that level. That's not bad at all, considering that you can keep the rate going as long as you can use your move action to regain focus. Another feat, but that's impressive damage for the level. In the second, you're managing 14d6 in one round, at the cost of only an extra 6 power points, and once again the rate can keep going. Obviously sticking with quicken is more efficient, but extra actions are still extra actions. And as I said, those extra actions could still be used for other things than just turning yourself into a PP to damage converter. So if I were to point out how broken Gate, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, and other spels were and give options to bring them in line balance-wise, that means all spellcasting is broken? I have stated more that once that a few things broken don't invalidate the entire system. Why start suggesting the same about magic? I'd suggest reading the rest of the thread. I've re-hashed most of this to death already. I'm glad that DisposableHero_ at least felt it worth his time to respond seriously. I had brought up several points that weren't addressed before. now with some new feats...arcane casters can focus on only one energy type and still affect everything: These aren't core feats...I'm talking about core. Of course they keep raising the bar with each new book. They want to keep people interested, and apparently WotC feels the best way to do that is to make things better, not new and interesting. now and Arcane or Divine caster does not need to have any variety or energy types at all, just focus on ONE type and make sure it affects everything........there is no psionic equivilant to this feat. another reason Psionics are UNDERPOWERED I'm going to assume that's a joke... Now, to be fair, I'm at least partially playing devil's advocate. I haven't decided on whether psionics are balanced, because I haven't seen them really played to their full extent from low to high levels; but I think mostly they are. Some of the frustrations in reading this included people pointing to the Wish and the Word (neither of which were legal, by the way), and saying that since magic can do that and psionics can't, that psionics must be balanced. I feel that has more to do with the fact that more supplements exist for magic than specifically because magic is more powerful. I hadn't considered that psions are more like specialists than generalists; you might actually want to put that in the first post. And it might be a good idea to switch at least a couple of those from being myths, if you don't truly feel they are. I will reiterate that I don't think a few broken powers or abilities invalidates the entire system, but I was addressing some concerns that I had. I think several of my concerns have even been addressed, and there are more that I need to think about; that last statement about psions not necessarily getting staples is worth considering. Of course, the sorcerer can suffer from the same limit simply by being limited to a number of spells known, but it's something I hadn't considered. ~Aracor
cvazi 05-18-05, 11:31 AM	You mean like how a wizard wastes four spell slots (i.e. quicken) to deal damage or accomplish things faster? And that a sorcerer can't do it at ALL? Yes, higher action rates cost more. It's up to you to decide in an individual situation whether or not it's worth it. The point I believe I was trying to make is that psions seem to have more options available in that regard than other casters. In the first example, you're spending almost twice as many power points on the second chunk of damage than normal, for doing it almost twice as fast at that level. That's not bad at all, considering that you can keep the rate going as long as you can use your move action to regain focus. Another feat, but that's impressive damage for the level. In the second, you're managing 14d6 in one round, at the cost of only an extra 6 power points, and once again the rate can keep going. Obviously sticking with quicken is more efficient, but extra actions are still extra actions. And as I said, those extra actions could still be used for other things than just turning yourself into a PP to damage converter. ~Aracor Erm, actually Wizards can beat the 14d6 damage per round at level 10. Dalamar's Lance (Wiz lvl 4) (Dragonlance CS) Ranged touch attack (medium range) Effect: Creates 1 lance per 5 levels (max 3). Each lance does 3d6 impact plus 1d6 per level (max 10) electricity (Ref for half on the Electricity damage) Round 1: Dalamar's Lance: 26d6 damage Round 2: Dalamar's Lance: 26d6 damage 2 round total: Wizard: 52d6 damage (x2 4th level spell slots => 14pp equivalent) Psion: 14d6 damage (33pp => x4 4th level spell slot + x1 3rd level spell slot)
RadicalTaoist 05-18-05, 12:34 PM	*copied into later post, please delete WizOs*
cvazi 05-18-05, 01:18 PM	Like I said, my main point here is that everyone kept saying that the fact psions have to keep paying for their powers to keep up is a disadvantage, and I wouldn't entirely agree with that. It's a mixed blessing at worst, not entirely a disadvantage. And like I said, this still gives even the wilder an advantage over the sorcerer, because while the sorcerer can switch out ONE spell every two levels starting with 4, (assuming they don't prestige) they still need to choose their spells just as carefully as you your powers; in some ways moreso because most of their lower-level spells need to stay flexible throughout. Like I said, if a sorcerer wants to stay as flexible as your simple psionic construct in regards to summons, they need to have NINE separate spells, or they need to use their entire selection of swaps to keep upgrading it. That leaves no flexibility for other spells that aren't working out for them. I'll reiterate, barring prestige classes, the sorcerer can swap out ONE spell every 2 levels starting at 4. Most of their spells can't have an expiration date, effectively one per level can. Hmmm. . . Sorceror spells known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-5; 3-4; 4-4; 5-3; 6-3; 7-3; 8-3; 9-3 Wilder powers known: 1-2; 2-1; 3-1; 4-1; 5-1; 6-1; 7-1; 8-1; 9-2 yeah- I am seeing a real discrepency of known powers. . . and to that one earlier comment about cone of cold being useless vs. white dragons: Any wizard dumb enough to prepare cold spells in the tundra where White Dragons live is a idiot who deserves to get eaten by said dragon.
carnivore 05-18-05, 01:47 PM	A comparison of Magic VS Psionics To make an accurate comparison, we need to find a common ground…..heres my attempt. First convert spells or spell slots to PP, exa: 5th level spell slot = 9PP. For all comparisons, assume 30 for main casting attribute(30 Int or 30 Cha) 20th Wizard(variable Spells Known or Prepared)(unlimited known spells,5 bonus feats+ summon familiar=1 feat) 4+1 9th lvl = 85PP 4+1 8th lvl = 75PP 4+1 7th lvl = 65PP 4+2 6th lvl = 66PP 4+2 5th lvl = 54PP 4+2 4th lvl = 42PP 4+2 3rd lvl = 30PP 4+3 2nd lvl = 21PP 4+3 1st lvl = 7PP total power available per day 445 PP 20th Sorceror(Fixed Spells Known, semi variable Cast)(34 spells known+9 0-level spells, summon familiar=1 feat) 6+1 9th lvl = 119 6+1 8th lvl = 105 6+1 7th lvl = 91 6+2 6th lvl = 88 6+2 5th lvl = 72 6+2 4th lvl = 56 6+2 3rd lvl = 40 6+3 2nd lvl = 27 6+3 1st lvl = 9 total power available per day 607 PP 20th Psion(fixed powers known, variable Manifesting)(36 known powers,5 bonus feats) 343+100=443PP total power available per day 443 PP now on top of this………Wizards and Sorcerors can Add metamagic feats for Free with metamagic Rods psionics have been beaten with a Nerf stick a bit too hard, or Magic is a bit unbalanced. to go along with cvasi.......im seeing a discrepancy in RAW power edit:this is incorrect it is far worse, just look down at post#190 and see why :D
RadicalTaoist 05-18-05, 01:58 PM	I'll beat 14d6 a round with a single spell. Twinned Scorching Ray. Even if you don't buy the measly orange ioun stone to get that third ray, it's still 16d6. As for saving spell slots... K, let's try a Lightning Bolt or Fireball with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Empower. 15d6 for a 3rd level spell slot. Only costs 9k gp, well within the expenses of a tenth level character. Saves a problem? Well, the mage can apply his Greater Spell Focus feat and a metamagic feat to a spell at the same time, now can't he? Now, try a Summon Monster V to summon 1d4+1 celestial bisons. Yeah, it takes a round and those puppies will die soon ... but first count up the charge damage they can do. This is all playing to the psion's strength, which is direct damage. The mage's strength is battlefield control. Often a lot more mileage can be gained, even in the high levels, out of combos like ETentacles + Rock to Mud + Acid Fog, etc. etc. Oh Oh! I know the answer! One sunder away from no shapechange? Still costs less. Besides, 1.5k gp is nothing to a 17th level character. Take a spare. And it can't be sundered once the mage casts the spell (melds into form). Of course, once he casts the spell you're dead anyway, but... Hold on a second...can you sunder circlets? If you can, I'd be going after his headband of intelligence first, drop those save DCs a bit. Like I said, my main point here is that everyone kept saying that the fact psions have to keep paying for their powers to keep up is a disadvantage, and I wouldn't entirely agree with that. It's a mixed blessing at worst, not entirely a disadvantage. And like I said, this still gives even the wilder an advantage over the sorcerer, because while the sorcerer can switch out ONE spell every two levels starting with 4, (assuming they don't prestige) they still need to choose their spells just as carefully as you your powers; in some ways moreso because most of their lower-level spells need to stay flexible throughout. Like I said, if a sorcerer wants to stay as flexible as your simple psionic construct in regards to summons, they need to have NINE separate spells, or they need to use their entire selection of swaps to keep upgrading it. That leaves no flexibility for other spells that aren't working out for them. Or they can take Shades (and the Shadow Conjuration spells), those along with the Shadow Evocations are awesome for sorcs. Or they can get high enough level to Gate, which is the single most broken spell in the game. Or they can Planar Bind ahead of time, or if you allow out of core, take the Sorceror 13th planar substitution level and learn all the Summon Monsters for the cost of one 6th level spell known. Besides, SMs suck until level 3. Take SM3, 5, and 8 if you don't want the shadow summons. I'll reiterate, barring prestige classes, the sorcerer can swap out ONE spell every 2 levels starting at 4. Most of their spells can't have an expiration date, effectively one per level can. One of the design flaws, make something like Psychic Reformation a class feature, switch out a spell known for an xp cost and a week of downtime. Frankly I think that should replace the Psychic Reformation power too, all spontaneous casters and manifesters switch out a spelll/power for xp and a week. A difference between 40% and 60% is certainly enough to be worthwhile IMHO, especially since a caster isn't great on hit points, so that one round may make the difference between success and failure. And you DO know that wizards/sorcerers are the only primary caster WITHOUT freedom of movement on their list, right? They also lack a bunch of stuff the Cleric gets (Silence, Spell Resistance, etc.). Which is stupid. Add it to the Wizard list, it's not like it's something he can't do with Contingency+Dimension Door anyway. Yes, the ability to target multiple creatures with it IS situationally powerful. However, having a DC substantially higher than than any other power or spell of a comperable level is not. Combine both of those together and it's not just situationally powerful any more. It's powerful in a situation that's not optimal for it (just attacking one target), and it's disturbingly powerful when in an optimal situation (attacking up to 5), especially when you're attacking something with a high touch AC. Combine that with the fact that you can negate evasion, it's starting to look a bit over the top compared to anything else. It doesn't start to get overpowered until you start augmenting it up to the equivalent of a 6th level power. At which point it's surpassing what even GSF can offer, but by only by two points. Also to note: if your DM's not a tactical fool, your optimal situation will be an impossible situation. How often do you have adjacent foes all within 15 ft. of each other? You'll be fighting massive hordes of mob creatures (in which case, you wouldn't need to augment it much anyways, and stuff like Energy Cone would be better even with lower save DCs). Or maybe you'll hit two Huge creatures with it. Whoopee. The very very optimal use of Energy Missile, getting a bunch of high-saving opponents together in 15 ft. of eachother (example: enemy NPC party) would require at least 4 rounds of consistent, coordinated use of all the battlefield control abilities in the book. Telekinetic Thrust, summoned monsters and fighters and wildshaped druid bullrushing, the works. Which makes me ask, why not just kill the foes in those 4 rounds with other powers? The truly unholy saves with EM occur at levels at which All it really takes to metagame is a bunch of knowledge skills. And the point is that a wizard may only HAVE a cone of cold when they're up against a white dragon. A psion doesn't have that problem, because they can use any type of energy that's convenient. When you've got 4 out of 5 bundled into a single power, there's a real good chance that at least one of them is going to work. Mobs of Foes with different energy immunites/vulnerabilities = sign of a smart DM. Take the half-White Dragon Sorceror with summoned Fire Elementals. Secondly, wizards power in exponentially proportional to their preparation. Why didn't our boy scout ahead with spells and have that Cone of Cold fire substituted ahead of time? Now if he's caught off guard, that's a problem, but it's a problem of the prepared spells system, and I'll address that later. And as I said, yes, you'll burn yourself out, but that's still getting three actions per round. That's DANGEROUS. Hey, I never said it would work all the time. There is NO strategy that will work all the time under a good DM, simply because situations change. However, saying that you 'could' be wasting those power points on a decoy does not make the power balanced. I'm sorry, but extra actions are good, regardless of the cost.emphasis mine The entire psionics concept is balanced by the idea that you can have craziness if you pay through the nose for it. You can own the epic encounter, if you're willing to be a featless commoner with a good Will save for the rest of the day. I personally like it. The wizard preparation idea is that with a little planning, ownage is easy. Now I feel the psionic idea got implemented in a hell of a lot better and easier way, whereas the Wizard idea needs tweaking. I have an idea for replacing the Vancian system with a different system. My point is that this is not so much a matter of balance as poor design. The restrictions on the wizard do not prevent or fight potential abuse, it merely makes the game awkward. I specifically mentioned sorcerers vs wilders here, but I'll run with this anyway, because this particular argument is starting to bug me. Wizards ARE limited. They're limited by time, money, and availability of spells. To be fair, that's campaign dependent, but when a wizard is paying 100 gp per page to scribe a spell into his spellbook, ASSUMING that they find the spell instead of buying it, that adds up fast. As a wizard player who loves versatility, trust me; that adds up incredibly fast. In a campaign where scrolls were readily available, I've had characters blow over 10,000 gold pieces on scrolls and and spend weeks scribing them into my book. If the time and money isn't available, wizards are going to be almost as limited as psions. As I said, that's campaign dependent, but it's not like wizards can just blink and have all the spells ever made in their spellbooks. That's for divine casters...Again, poor design really, not balancing. When wizards can port off to safe places (or in the high levels, their own freaking demiplanes), then ward it up like a fortress, and scry, and prepare, and destroy some poor bastards in a few rounds without leaving the safety of their sanctum, it's not a balance issue. It's an irritation for players who want to have fun playing wizards. I know where you're coming from man. And divine casters....:nonono: This seems kind of a bad example to me. Dumb enough to let the tar get kicked out of you? It sounds as if you're saying that someone capable of dealing out incredible damage but can't take much (glass cannon) is dumb if they take damage...despite the fact that they're probably going to be a priority target BECAUSE of their capability of wrecking things so badly, and the fact that they can die if you focus on them. I'm suggesting that it's probably too powerful as a "Oh no I'm hurt really bad spell through no fault of my own and what should I do?" spell. It allows you to heal yourself AND hurt the enemy at the same time. As I said, this is part of a balancing act again, how badly can you get hurt before the next hit will kill you kind of thing, but it's still doubly effective than healing yourself or simply hurting the enemy.Lessee, from level 5 to level 9, when ET:H is first gained (assuming you're a Telepath; rest of you disciplines wait till 7 and spend a feat please) up until where it is fully damage augmented, the psion will simply have less hit points than it offers. I mean, what level 9 psion has 90 hitpoints? Even for 50 hitpoints, if your psion needs to heal that badly, he's pretty screwed. Secondly, you can NEVER increase the save DC of ET:H through augmentation. Best you can hope for is +2 out of Greater Psionic Endowment for the cost of your focus. So at the higher levels when a psion may regularly need the healing and damage, even low-will foes can be reducing that damage to 5 per power point spent. Not very efficient. Not to mention the enemies at the high levels will turn your sorry caster tush to hamburger in a single full attack. This is all assuming you were not fighting, undead, plants, constructs, or high Will foes with Mettle. Mind Blank=icing on the cake. Before I respond to this, I'll admit that I'm doing the same thing...but: I keep hearing about how psionics are different than magic, and then here's the complaint when the different goes a direction that doesn't give the psion more power. Although I hadn't considered that, it basically means that a psion should almost be compared more to a specialist wizard than a normal wizard, because they are losing out on a few staples. Although they DO get greater teleport without being specifically nomads. It's a few levels higher, but they still get the movement staple. The rest I'm not sure, as I said, I don't have my books available at the moment. They are similar, kind of how Arcane and Divine are similar. But why should it be BETTER than other powers and spells that have the same or similar cost? That's the question I'm trying to figure out. Hard to come up with equivalent cost. You just don't pay that much, spending extra resources is not how the arcane casters work, as I've noted above, but imagine a sorceror with the Draconic Breath feat from CA and the metabreath spell Breath Weapon Admixture from the Draconomicon can spend a 9th level spell slot (breath weapon) and an 8th level spell slot (spell) to whack foes in a 30 radius cone with a two-element 36d6 blast of energies, save DC as a 9th level spell (add Charisma). That's 32 equivalent power points, and one standard action. Only Artificers can come close, and not often for a single standard action. How's that for similar cost? I'm talking about core here. And it's FOUR feats, not one. And a wizard STILL can't do it on the fly. Four? You'd take all four? Take one, maybe two, maybe a rod of energy substitution on top. The only reason I brought that up is that they're still labeled as myths. If it's true, wouldn't that make it not a myth? Especially psychic reformation, the entire 'answer' is how to fix it. Well, the problem is with replacing feats in my opinion. Now to be honest I think that characters should have a means to fix the mistakes of previous levels for a price though, so that they don't end up totally jacked in the higher levels because of poor feat and PrC choices. However, there should be a general means open to all characters, not just manifesters. You mean like how a wizard wastes four spell slots (i.e. quicken) to deal damage or accomplish things faster? And that a sorcerer can't do it at ALL? Yes, higher action rates cost more. It's up to you to decide in an individual situation whether or not it's worth it. The point I believe I was trying to make is that psions seem to have more options available in that regard than other casters. In the first example, you're spending almost twice as many power points on the second chunk of damage than normal, for doing it almost twice as fast at that level. That's not bad at all, considering that you can keep the rate going as long as you can use your move action to regain focus. Another feat, but that's impressive damage for the level. In the second, you're managing 14d6 in one round, at the cost of only an extra 6 power points, and once again the rate can keep going. Obviously sticking with quicken is more efficient, but extra actions are still extra actions. And as I said, those extra actions could still be used for other things than just turning yourself into a PP to damage converter. More cost, more effect. Sorcs have their own design issues. See top of my post. They want to keep people interested, and apparently WotC feels the best way to do that is to make things better, not new and interesting. Could. Not. Agree. More. I'm going to assume that's a joke... It's an opinion, no less a joke than thinking that psionics are overpowered. Now, to be fair, I'm at least partially playing devil's advocate. I haven't decided on whether psionics are balanced, because I haven't seen them really played to their full extent from low to high levels; but I think mostly they are. Some of the frustrations in reading this included people pointing to the Wish and the Word (neither of which were legal, by the way), and saying that since magic can do that and psionics can't, that psionics must be balanced. I feel that has more to do with the fact that more supplements exist for magic than specifically because magic is more powerful. I hadn't considered that psions are more like specialists than generalists; you might actually want to put that in the first post. And it might be a good idea to switch at least a couple of those from being myths, if you don't truly feel they are. I will reiterate that a few broken powers or abilities invalidates the entire system, but I was addressing some concerns that I had. I think several of my concerns have even been addressed, and there are more that I need to think about; that last statement about psions not necessarily getting staples is worth considering. Of course, the sorcerer can suffer from the same limit simply by being limited to a number of spells known, but it's something I hadn't considered. ~Aracor You made a typo in the second paragraph, disagreeing with yourself, I bolded it. All in all, watch them in actual play, with a lot of mixed encounters and basic sense tactics, and they're fine.
Alienfreak 05-18-05, 02:14 PM	Oh Oh! I know the answer! One sunder away from no shapechange? By WotC rules you cant sunder it. All it really takes to metagame is a bunch of knowledge skills. And the point is that a wizard may only HAVE a cone of cold when they're up against a white dragon. A psion doesn't have that problem, because they can use any type of energy that's convenient. When you've got 4 out of 5 bundled into a single power, there's a real good chance that at least one of them is going to work. Lord of the Uttercold? Arch Mage? Rod of Energy Substitution? Not really hard to get, huh? I'll beat 14d6 a round with a single spell. Twinned Scorching Ray. Even if you don't buy the measly orange ioun stone to get that third ray, it's still 16d6. Bloodline of Fire, Elemental Spellcasting, Spell Thematics? Im not motivated to answer to anything else ;)
cvazi 05-18-05, 02:39 PM	the problem with carnivore's comparison is that it is not a 1 for one comparison between pp and spell slots because spell slots are free scaling. 3pp(energy ray)=3d6+3 2nd level slot (scorching ray:lvl 3 caster)=4d6 2nd level slot (scorching ray:lvl 10 caster)=8d6 2nd level slot (scorching ray:lvl 15 caster)=12d6 5pp(energy burst)=5d6 +5 damage 3rd level slot (fireball: lvl 5 caster)=5d6 3rd level slot (fireball: lvl 10 caster)=10d6 7pp()=7d6+7 4th level slot(twin scorching ray lvl 10 caster)=16d6 4th level slot(Dalamar's lance lvl 10 caster)=26d6 4th level slot(Dalamar's lance lvl 15 caster)=39d6 sorry carnivore, but I think the analogy breaks down. Edit: honestly I am tempted to start spamming the magic boards about how overpowered arcane is compared to psionics :D
carnivore 05-18-05, 02:46 PM	opps you are right...its worse than i thought i cannot see how anyone could possibly believe that Psionics as they are currently, in 3.5 XPH ,are overpowered........as i said before Compared to Arcane or Divine Magic....Psionics are Underpowered :D
Alienfreak 05-18-05, 04:25 PM	I know ... my winged elven Wizard specialiced in cold spells (lord of the uttercold feat) keeps kickin' the ass of nearly everything there is. And if everything else fails, my wizboy still has his elemental mastery. Oh ... and did i mention the Heal 3/day Spell Like ? :rolleyes: HELP PSIONICS!!! NERV DIVINE AND ARCANE MAGIC!!!
Nephlite 05-18-05, 04:41 PM	I know ... my winged elven Wizard specialiced in cold spells (lord of the uttercold feat) keeps kickin' the ass of nearly everything there is. And if everything else fails, my wizboy still has his elemental mastery. Oh ... and did i mention the Heal 3/day Spell Like ? :rolleyes: HELP PSIONICS!!! NERV DIVINE AND ARCANE MAGIC!!! I'm going to assume you mean "Nerf" because NERV is a word I don't know :D
Alienfreak 05-18-05, 06:30 PM	I always thought it refers to the german word "nerven". But i might be wrong :rolleyes: :eek: :) I really dunno. But you know what i mean ;)
Aracor 05-18-05, 07:32 PM	Erm, actually Wizards can beat the 14d6 damage per round at level 10. Dalamar's Lance (Wiz lvl 4) (Dragonlance CS) Ranged touch attack (medium range) I was still talking core, which dragonlance most certainly is NOT. Hmmm. . . Sorceror spells known: 0-9; 1-5; 2-5; 3-4; 4-4; 5-3; 6-3; 7-3; 8-3; 9-3 Wilder powers known: 1-2; 2-1; 3-1; 4-1; 5-1; 6-1; 7-1; 8-1; 9-2 And like I said, construct is effectively 9 different powers compared to a sorc, an energy power is effectively 4, etc. To be fair, that looks like a big difference, but I'm guessing that if someone wanted to optimize a wilder for versatility, it would be closer than you'd suspect from those numbers. However, that IS a big difference for trying to get staples, and I have to admit that. and to that one earlier comment about cone of cold being useless vs. white dragons: Any wizard dumb enough to prepare cold spells in the tundra where White Dragons live is a idiot who deserves to get eaten by said dragon. Ah. And you've NEVER heard of a dragon out of its preferred territory for any reason whatsoever. Makes sense. The worst thing I ever saw similar to this was when my DM had us taking on a blue dragon back in 3.0. We found out the hard way that it was a red dragon with alter self cast upon itself. Guess what? The fireballs didn't do much that battle, nor did the Protection from Elements: Lightning spells that were up on everyone. I'm sure other people have had nasty surprises like that from clever DMs, just to make sure planning isn't always a sure thing. I'll beat 14d6 a round with a single spell. Twinned Scorching Ray. Even if you don't buy the measly orange ioun stone to get that third ray, it's still 16d6. Twin isn't core...but quicken could do the same thing. Hold on a second...can you sunder circlets? If you can, I'd be going after his headband of intelligence first, drop those save DCs a bit. Why yes. Yes you can. 3.5 PHB, page 158, Sundering a Carried or Worn object. One of the design flaws, make something like Psychic Reformation a class feature, switch out a spell known for an xp cost and a week of downtime. Frankly I think that should replace the Psychic Reformation power too, all spontaneous casters and manifesters switch out a spelll/power for xp and a week. Not a bad idea, but it's not core. Core they can only swap out one every two levels, and since that's sorcerer only, they can't drop them when they prestige. Not that I wouldn't allow them to anyway, but by the rules they can't. They also lack a bunch of stuff the Cleric gets (Silence, Spell Resistance, etc.). Which is stupid. Add it to the Wizard list, it's not like it's something he can't do with Contingency+Dimension Door anyway. Once again, we're talking about what is, not what should be. House rules are house rules, this thread is about core psionics vs (I thought) core magic. It doesn't start to get overpowered until you start augmenting it up to the equivalent of a 6th level power. At which point it's surpassing what even GSF can offer, but by only by two points. Also to note: if your DM's not a tactical fool, your optimal situation will be an impossible situation. How often do you have adjacent foes all within 15 ft. of each other? You'll be fighting massive hordes of mob creatures (in which case, you wouldn't need to augment it much anyways, and stuff like Energy Cone would be better even with lower save DCs). This one goes both directions. It SUCKS when your party is ambushed while at a table eating, or while walking and not necessarily suspecting a threat, and you get fireballed, etc. I'll be honest and admit my problem with this power is the save, even though it still gives free twin power if there happens to be another target close. That's nice, but it's not the end of the world. The save is where it starts getting ugly when you pump a lot of points into it. Why didn't our boy scout ahead with spells and have that Cone of Cold fire substituted ahead of time? Now if he's caught off guard, that's a problem, but it's a problem of the prepared spells system, and I'll address that later. Then I'll await my comment until then. The entire psionics concept is balanced by the idea that you can have craziness if you pay through the nose for it. You can own the epic encounter, if you're willing to be a featless commoner with a good Will save for the rest of the day. I personally like it. The wizard preparation idea is that with a little planning, ownage is easy. Now I feel the psionic idea got implemented in a hell of a lot better and easier way, whereas the Wizard idea needs tweaking. I have an idea for replacing the Vancian system with a different system. My point is that this is not so much a matter of balance as poor design. The restrictions on the wizard do not prevent or fight potential abuse, it merely makes the game awkward. We're talking about what is, not what should be. In this case, what IS is that the wizard can get caught with his pants down much more easily than the psion, who is supposed to be the equivalent. Again, poor design really, not balancing. When wizards can port off to safe places (or in the high levels, their own freaking demiplanes), then ward it up like a fortress, and scry, and prepare, and destroy some poor bastards in a few rounds without leaving the safety of their sanctum, it's not a balance issue. It's an irritation for players who want to have fun playing wizards. I know where you're coming from man. I would say that design is a large part of balance, poor or not. Saying that the the wizard is weaker due to poor design (I'm not saying this, by the way, it's an example) doesn't change the fact that the wizard is weaker. So blaming balance issues on poor design is kind of a cop-out. So at the higher levels when a psion may regularly need the healing and damage, even low-will foes can be reducing that damage to 5 per power point spent. Not very efficient. Not to mention the enemies at the high levels will turn your sorry caster tush to hamburger in a single full attack. It's still twice as effective as vigor, because you're hurting the enemy by the same amount that you're healing. Yes, if they use that on a melee monster that then gets a full attack, that's a stupid tactical move on the psion's part. But that's not the only way to use it. Using it to finish someone off and heal yourself is great, because then you don't need to make the choice which to do. And I would assume that the telepath is smart enough to realize if a creature type is immune to mind-affecting effects and wouldn't use it on them. Hard to come up with equivalent cost. You just don't pay that much, spending extra resources is not how the arcane casters work, as I've noted above, but imagine a sorceror with the Draconic Breath feat from CA and the metabreath spell Breath Weapon Admixture from the Draconomicon can spend a 9th level spell slot (breath weapon) and an 8th level spell slot (spell) to whack foes in a 30 radius cone with a two-element 36d6 blast of energies, save DC as a 9th level spell (add Charisma). That's 32 equivalent power points, and one standard action. Only Artificers can come close, and not often for a single standard action. How's that for similar cost? Even looking at equivalent cost of other xd6 per level or per point spells, the DC of energy missile at level 20 ends up being 29 + stat modifier rather than any other power or spell's best of 19 + stat modifier. A difference of 10 is more than considerable. As I said, my only real problem with that particular power is the save. Four? You'd take all four? Take one, maybe two, maybe a rod of energy substitution on top. I said to do the same thing as the psionic powers get for FREE you'd need to take four. And all except for sonic are better than an equivalent spell, because they're either better damage, different save, or better penetration and DC. Well, the problem is with replacing feats in my opinion. Now to be honest I think that characters should have a means to fix the mistakes of previous levels for a price though, so that they don't end up totally jacked in the higher levels because of poor feat and PrC choices. However, there should be a general means open to all characters, not just manifesters. Another good idea, but this isn't about what should be. Currently, this is the only method to accomplish feat changing by RAW, and as such it's abusable. More cost, more effect. Sorcs have their own design issues. See top of my post. I have my own solutions for sorcerers not getting quicken. If not for that weakness, I honestly think the class is fine. I've seen too many peole in my campaigns use it successfully to think otherwise. You made a typo in the second paragraph, disagreeing with yourself, I bolded it. All in all, watch them in actual play, with a lot of mixed encounters and basic sense tactics, and they're fine. I corrected it above. Should have read: "I will reiterate I don't think that a few broken powers or abilities invalidates the entire system" By WotC rules you cant sunder it. Yes you can. You can disarm it too. Lord of the Uttercold? Arch Mage? Rod of Energy Substitution? Not really hard to get, huh? I'll beat 14d6 a round with a single spell. Twinned Scorching Ray. Even if you don't buy the measly orange ioun stone to get that third ray, it's still 16d6.Bloodline of Fire, Elemental Spellcasting, Spell Thematics? Im not motivated to answer to anything else The only thing there that's core is archmage. But yeah, it seems that with that one spell (which even many arcane fans consider overpowered) the arcane caster can get close to a psion's sheer damage potential. And scorching ray still requires three touch attacks, per spell, and energy resistance applies three times. A single resist elements spell or power cuts the nuts off of that spell in pretty much any incarnation. But yeah, sheer damage it's close. I think I'm definitely leaning toward psionics not being overpowered except for a couple things that can easily be houseruled. I think the only thing left that REALLY bothers me is the fact that psionic sonic damage specifically says it ignores hardness, and is therefore the only damage that does. But once again, a house rule can take care of that. I look forward to seeing one getting played from low to high and see what happens over the course of an entire campaign. ~Aracor
Nephlite 05-18-05, 08:23 PM	I think I'm definitely leaning toward psionics not being overpowered except for a couple things that can easily be houseruled. I think the only thing left that REALLY bothers me is the fact that psionic sonic damage specifically says it ignores hardness, and is therefore the only damage that does. But once again, a house rule can take care of that. I look forward to seeing one getting played from low to high and see what happens over the course of an entire campaign. ~Aracor Bards and Wizards get sonic attacks. Bards get more I think, but still. Both magical and psionic sonic attacks ignore hardness.
DisposableHero_ 05-18-05, 08:50 PM	Aracor, rather than post another long, quote filled rant with specific cases of your arguments and where I disagree, only to have you respond again in kind, I'll say this. You are hitting on the most questionable sections of the XPH, and all we can really tell you is, try it, observe it in play with the varied encounter and 4 encounter per day suggestions and see for yourself. Most of the regulars on the Psi-Boards have played in numerous campaigns as or with psions and have seen where they work and where they break down. We can rehash all your points and our counters ad nauseum without anyones opinions wavering in the slightest, trust me, there are more than 1100 posts on the two threads combined to attest to this. Just two clarifactions before I begin. When I talked about reading the threads, I mean this one AND this one (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253). I don't doubt you read this whole thread, but I'm skeptical about you having the time to read all 1000+ posts on the original. If you did you deserve a medal for your determination :D. Second, I was not aware (and thuroughly shocked to discover) that freedom of movement does not appear on the Sorc/Wiz spell list. What I will say is that your comparisons are spotlights on the sections of psionics that push the envelope the most and exclusive of the sections of arcane magic (core or not) that do the same. Shapechange has been mentioned, Gate has been mentioned, metamagic rods have been mentioned, shades was mentioned, shadow evocation and shadow conjuration were mentioned, but you have not responded to any of those claims. We won't make the claim that a psion or wilder can't do some things a wizard or sorcerer is not capable of. But don't claim the XPH is overpowered because you can do some things you could not before, and some things more reliably than before, because we've only dipped our foot in the tip of a small lake fed by the ocean of arcane magic, and not even set foot within 100 miles of the depths of divine magic. As you no doubt read from a post a submitted earlier on this thread, there are 371 sorcerer wizard spells in the PHB, and less than 170 psion/wilder powers in the XPH, less than 250 if you include the 6 disciplines' power lists. Even if energy powers count as 4 each, and astral construct counts as 9, and dominate counts as 2, you are still not going to make up the 150 or so spells that still separate psionics from CORE arcane magic. You dislike schism and energy missile and think they are too good. Thats fine, I dislike gate, mirror image, scorching ray, wall of force, planar binding, power word kill, power word stun, silent image, the entire line of bigby's hand spells, the shadow conjurations, the shadow evocations, shades, meteor swarm, horrid wilting, finger of death, the metamagic rods, and the archmage, and I think they are too good. When you can explain to me how none of those can be overpowered, I'll go back over your arguments and try to do the same. I share the opinion that psionics are underpowered. However, I am of the opinion that this is because they lack the incredibly powerful spells that wizards, sorcerers, clerics and druids have access to. Were powers and spells equal, the psion would be stronger, because quite simply, the psionic system is designed better than the vancian casting system. Power points are more fluid, they give the player more control, they are new player friendly, more intuitive, using them right takes more skill, they are more fun, this list could go on, but it doesn't need to, you get the picture. There is a massive discrepancy in the strength of the spells versus the strength of the powers, and it leans heavily in favor of arcane and divine. That said, there are a couple of things I find I must point out with you analysis of psionics. Regarding energy missile. The Save DC is distrubingly effective at high levels when direct damage is distrubingly ineffective. This makes a high level blaster a more viable choice for a psion than it does for an arcane caster, but it doesn't make it inherently viable overall. IMO only the artificer really accomplishes this, and even then, only with the help of complete arcane. My last point is on augmentation. A point that hasn't been mentioned is that augmentation, combined with the manifester level cap severly weakens metapsionics against their arcane counterparts. Each point used for metapsionics is a point that is not used for augmentation. This is a big difference, it means to apply metapsionics, you must sacrifice power effect (or at very least save DCs). The free scaling or arcane and divine spells is not at all related to how much metamagic is applied to it. To make it equivalent, quicken spell would read: A quickened spell uses up a spell slot 4 levels higher than normal, and is considered to have a caster level 6 levels lower than normal.
DisposableHero_ 05-18-05, 08:52 PM	I think I'm definitely leaning toward psionics not being overpowered except for a couple things that can easily be houseruled. I think the only thing left that REALLY bothers me is the fact that psionic sonic damage specifically says it ignores hardness, and is therefore the only damage that does. I'm personally bothered that arcane sonic damage doesn't (although arcane sonic damage doesn't come with a generic -1 attached to every die, but thats another issue)
RadicalTaoist 05-19-05, 11:04 AM	Twin isn't core...but quicken could do the same thing. Should be, so should Split Ray, so should all the Complete Warrior feats and a lot of other things, this is a question of "everyone should have it" instead of "psionics shouldn't". Psions can twin core, afterall Not a bad idea, but it's not core. Core they can only swap out one every two levels, and since that's sorcerer only, they can't drop them when they prestige. Not that I wouldn't allow them to anyway, but by the rules they can't. Once again, we're talking about what is, not what should be. House rules are house rules, this thread is about core psionics vs (I thought) core magic. Ah ah ah, you are functioning on the idea that core=balanced. I point to the Cleric class, the Druid class, and the Gate spell. In some areas the XPH is better balanced than the PHB. This one goes both directions. It SUCKS when your party is ambushed while at a table eating, or while walking and not necessarily suspecting a threat, and you get fireballed, etc. I'll be honest and admit my problem with this power is the save, even though it still gives free twin power if there happens to be another target close. That's nice, but it's not the end of the world. The save is where it starts getting ugly when you pump a lot of points into it. As has been noted, it's only ugly in points of the game where dd just plain sucks. Remember that monster mobs increase their hp by d8 to d10 plus Con for free, while Energy missile increases by d6, d6+1 sometimes, and you pay more for every dice. And that's all before saves, and energy/spell resistance. And, god forbid, regeneration. Honestly, I'm not that upset about letting psions be crazy with the damage dealing. That was never the wiz/sorc's tactical forte anyway, they dealt in summons, save-or-dies, and deathtrap construction (battlefield control tactics forcing a foe into a situation where it's impossible to survive). We're talking about what is, not what should be. In this case, what IS is that the wizard can get caught with his pants down much more easily than the psion, who is supposed to be the equivalent. What should not be is the idea of the psion and wizard having the same tactical weaknesses. As I said, psions are balanced by high cost, wizards are balanced by needing time to prepare. Equivalent means similar, not identical. I would say that design is a large part of balance, poor or not. Saying that the the wizard is weaker due to poor design (I'm not saying this, by the way, it's an example) doesn't change the fact that the wizard is weaker. So blaming balance issues on poor design is kind of a cop-out. Who said the wizard was weaker? Hindered, not weaker. The irritations I speak of aren't balance restrictions. They're speed bumps. All they do is make the total ownage of the rest of the game boring, so as to discourage wizard players who actually want to have fun from annihilating game balance. It's still twice as effective as vigor, because you're hurting the enemy by the same amount that you're healing. Yes, if they use that on a melee monster that then gets a full attack, that's a stupid tactical move on the psion's part. But that's not the only way to use it. Using it to finish someone off and heal yourself is great, because then you don't need to make the choice which to do. And I would assume that the telepath is smart enough to realize if a creature type is immune to mind-affecting effects and wouldn't use it on them. It's twice as effective but half as efficient and half as safe, therefore balanced. And the psion's still STOL when the undead come for him - your white dragon argument, remember? I'd rather spend the power points on an Astral Construct to crush the foes at a nice safe distance rather than having to ETH them at arm's reach. Even looking at equivalent cost of other xd6 per level or per point spells, the DC of energy missile at level 20 ends up being 29 + stat modifier rather than any other power or spell's best of 19 + stat modifier. A difference of 10 is more than considerable. As I said, my only real problem with that particular power is the save. At levels when direct damage is pretty much useless, and the power's affecting one or two foes at a time at most, why not Energy Ray? I see your point though, I have a houserule in place that gives all the energy powers like this (Cone, Ball, Wave, etc.) two choice of augment. You can augment damage with a 2 for 1 DC augment, or you can augment DC with a 2 for 1 damage augment. So you can choose between DC and damage, and balance those two priorities as you see fit. I don't feel my houserule is necessary, but I wanted to make the other energy powers stronger, and I weakened Energy Missile to compensate. I said to do the same thing as the psionic powers get for FREE you'd need to take four. And all except for sonic are better than an equivalent spell, because they're either better damage, different save, or better penetration and DC. And I'm saying two out of those four are redundant benefits. The big choice for psions is the secondary benefits as you state, and that's a mixed blessing. What if your foe is lightning immune but has insane PR (dragons, yugoloths, etc.)? Or is immune to cold but has evasion and good reflex? Or is cold vulnerable - but has a high Fort save and mettle? Another good idea, but this isn't about what should be. Currently, this is the only method to accomplish feat changing by RAW, and as such it's abusable. True. Then again, I never see any threads in the CO boards about abusing Psychic Reformation. And can't think off the top of my head exactly what would be an optimal abuse for it's use. It's abuseable but not that abuseable - my only concern would be the XP cost not being high enough, but I've never seen that in a campaign. Hell, the 1st level spell Mount offers more abuse than this. I have my own solutions for sorcerers not getting quicken. If not for that weakness, I honestly think the class is fine. I've seen too many peole in my campaigns use it successfully to think otherwise. If you nerfed all the PrCs granting +1 spellcasting per day then it'd be fine, what bothers me about the sorc is all the dead levels. But that's poor design rather than balance.
Aracor 05-19-05, 01:36 PM	Both magical and psionic sonic attacks ignore hardness. Not according to the new FAQ: "Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks. These attacks deal normal damage both to creatures and to objects, and thus would deal normal damage to an animated object (less the effect of the hardness)." That's something that bugged me since they changed it. Just two clarifactions before I begin. When I talked about reading the threads, I mean this one AND this one. I don't doubt you read this whole thread, but I'm skeptical about you having the time to read all 1000+ posts on the original. If you did you deserve a medal for your determination . Second, I was not aware (and thuroughly shocked to discover) that freedom of movement does not appear on the Sorc/Wiz spell list. Nope, I read them both. I found the old thread first in someone's sig, and that led to this one. Like I said, I was bored at work. And I was also surprised that freedom of movement didn't appear on the arcane list. What I will say is that your comparisons are spotlights on the sections of psionics that push the envelope the most and exclusive of the sections of arcane magic (core or not) that do the same. To be fair, I was just addressing the examples that were given in the first posts of both of these threads. And I have to admit psionics have been improved so much since the 2nd edition ones it's not even funny. THAT was broken. Shapechange has been mentioned, Gate has been mentioned, metamagic rods have been mentioned, shades was mentioned, shadow evocation and shadow conjuration were mentioned, but you have not responded to any of those claims. Shapechange can get sick real fast if the DM gives you access to any shape in any book as long as it fits in the hit die limit. However, it does have the qualifier of 'familiar', and it's up to the DM to decide what exactly that means. I'm not sure where the problems with gate even are, to be honest. It's never come up as something terribly abusable in any of my games, and I've seen some broken things. I'll happily admit that shadow evocation and shadow conjuration give flexibility to a sorcerer, but those come at a cost of being weaker than the normal spells. Metamagic rods are poweful, that I'll admit. Probably overpowered. Thats fine, I dislike gate, mirror image, scorching ray, wall of force, planar binding, power word kill, power word stun, silent image, the entire line of bigby's hand spells, the shadow conjurations, the shadow evocations, shades, meteor swarm, horrid wilting, finger of death, the metamagic rods, and the archmage, and I think they are too good. When you can explain to me how none of those can be overpowered, I'll go back over your arguments and try to do the same. Wow, heck of a list. A few of those I'll agree are overpowered, most I won't. (Silent Image? That's certainly an unusual one in the overpowered list). But I'll address this a bit better further down. I share the opinion that psionics are underpowered. However, I am of the opinion that this is because they lack the incredibly powerful spells that wizards, sorcerers, clerics and druids have access to. Were powers and spells equal, the psion would be stronger, because quite simply, the psionic system is designed better than the vancian casting system. Power points are more fluid, they give the player more control, they are new player friendly, more intuitive, using them right takes more skill, they are more fun, this list could go on, but it doesn't need to, you get the picture. There is a massive discrepancy in the strength of the spells versus the strength of the powers, and it leans heavily in favor of arcane and divine. I'll admit that this isn't core, but I've seen arguments before that simply suggest this to people who say 'this or that power is overpowered compared to magic': Make a spell out of it. Well, I see no reason that can't go in reverse. It would take a bit more tweaking to be fair, but there are a lot of spells that could have equivalent powers. Admittedly, that makes them less unique, but it's a thought. Either that, or I would see no reason why a psion couldn't just make up their own powers just like a wizard makes up their own spells. Regarding energy missile. The Save DC is distrubingly effective at high levels when direct damage is distrubingly ineffective. This makes a high level blaster a more viable choice for a psion than it does for an arcane caster, but it doesn't make it inherently viable overall. IMO only the artificer really accomplishes this, and even then, only with the help of complete arcane. This I don't agree with. And I think the reason for it is that there's a misconception of what direct damage is supposed to do. Especially at high levels, I don't think it's intended to be completely maul everything in sight for the simple reason that it's generally more dependable than spells that are 'save negates' because barring special abilities, SOMETHING will get through. Also, the system was built around a party. Even if you can't completely obliterate something with direct damage, you can soften it up the point where a melee character can take it out better, maybe even making it into cleave-bait. If you use direct damage as support, I can attest from a friend of mine's style of play that it works very well and effectively in a group. A friend of mine plays a sorcerer who happily starts out the fight with a fireball, ice storm, cone of cold, whatever else he happens to have that he thinks will be effective, and then the fighter charges in and starts knocking them down. After the punishment the direct damage dealt the ones who failed their saves, a stiff breeze will knock them down, and a fighter or barbarian dedicated to melee fighting can manage substantially more than a stiff breeze. This is a big difference, it means to apply metapsionics, you must sacrifice power effect (or at very least save DCs). The free scaling or arcane and divine spells is not at all related to how much metamagic is applied to it. To make it equivalent, quicken spell would read: A quickened spell uses up a spell slot 4 levels higher than normal, and is considered to have a caster level 6 levels lower than normal. True, but with the free scaling only to a certain point on spells, and the fact that you can only use a spell 4 levels lower, I think you'll find that's not as much of a gulf as you'd think. At level 9, a psion could throw a 9d6 energy ray and a quickened 3d6 energy ray, for a total of 12d6 damage; average 42. A wizard could throw a 13.5d6 empowered lightning bolt and a quickened magic missile, 5d4+5, average damage 65ish. But then the wizard would most likely be completely out of 5th level spell slots in general, a specialist would have one left, and they couldn't do that damage again. The psion could do 42 damage per round until they ran out of power points. But the caster level isn't considered lower, at least for the purposes of breaking power resistance. But as everyone said, that's just different, not imbalanced. Which I'm starting to agree with more and more. I'm personally bothered that arcane sonic damage doesn't (although arcane sonic damage doesn't come with a generic -1 attached to every die, but thats another issue) True, but it gets less dice worth of free scaling. It usually ends up being pretty close to the same average. It's twice as effective but half as efficient and half as safe, therefore balanced. And the psion's still STOL when the undead come for him - your white dragon argument, remember? I'd rather spend the power points on an Astral Construct to crush the foes at a nice safe distance rather than having to ETH them at arm's reach. I'm missing how it's half as efficient. It's half as efficient as it COULD be if they didn't make their save? And yes, if he tries to use it against undead he's S.O.L., but (usually) they'll know better. There can be trickery going on, like my example, but in general they'll choose to use a different power in that situation. Mind blank is a better example for that, because you may not know until too late that there's a mind blank going on. At levels when direct damage is pretty much useless... See my above post about direct damage. What if your foe is lightning immune but has insane PR (dragons, yugoloths, etc.)? Or is immune to cold but has evasion and good reflex? Or is cold vulnerable - but has a high Fort save and mettle? True, but this is still more options than a prepared caster, or even a spontaneous caster. True. Then again, I never see any threads in the CO boards about abusing Psychic Reformation. And can't think off the top of my head exactly what would be an optimal abuse for it's use. The main abuse is getting yourself an item creation feat, making what you want with it, and then switching to another item creation feat, or even a metamagic feat for adventuring and then a creation feat for downtime. Like I said, I'm certainly finding fewer and fewer reasons to think that psionics is overpowered, and I'm almost certain it isn't overpowered as a system, although it does offer a great deal of flexibility, and flexibility is power. I would say that's the main advantage of the psionic system though. Thanks for the debate though, it was fun. ~Aracor
carnivore 05-19-05, 01:47 PM	Aracor, i have a question for you .........just out of curiosity.......do you only play with 3 books...PHB,DMG,MM :D
Alienfreak 05-19-05, 02:02 PM	Most come up with that ridiculous Core only discussion ... 1. XPH isnt Core 2. Nobody plays just core (at least noone that plays with XPH) so in my eyes it is just useless to discuss Core only ...
Aracor 05-19-05, 02:23 PM	Aracor, i have a question for you .........just out of curiosity.......do you only play with 3 books...PHB,DMG,MM You've got me. In the game I play with the lowest number of books, we use 5 books. PHB, DMG, MM, MM2, MM3. Of course, only the DM is allowed in the monster books and the DMG, so that should technically be a moot point, but no, the minimum number of books I use is 5. In other games, we have less stringent requirements, and those end up being higher-powered games, including the complete books and races books, and most WotC books that were released for 3.5...except the XPH. But we also played in 2nd edition, when the psionics were so terribly shattered that some of our players still twitch when they're even mentioned, so I was trying to gather ammunition to get people to actually try them out again, because I like the idea of psionics. 1. XPH isnt Core 2. Nobody plays just core (at least noone that plays with XPH) Depends on how you look at it. If you're looking for just core, the XPH could in a way be considered the core psionics book. And if you consider it that way, then it should probably be balanced against the other core books rather than the complete books, which most DEFINITELY raise the bar. As I said, WotC seems to like releasing more powerful stuff rather than new and interesting stuff to keep people buying their books. ~Aracor
carnivore 05-19-05, 02:32 PM	ok......i would think that WotC seems to believe that Psionics are Core to the Game if they included them in the SRD. but if you are the DM, you can include or Exclude anything you like....just have fun :D
cvazi 05-19-05, 02:52 PM	True, but with the free scaling only to a certain point on spells, and the fact that you can only use a spell 4 levels lower, I think you'll find that's not as much of a gulf as you'd think. At level 9, a psion could throw a 9d6 energy ray and a quickened 3d6 energy ray, for a total of 12d6 damage; average 42. A wizard could throw a 13.5d6 empowered lightning bolt and a quickened magic missile, 5d4+5, average damage 65ish. But then the wizard would most likely be completely out of 5th level spell slots in general, a specialist would have one left, and they couldn't do that damage again. The psion could do 42 damage per round until they ran out of power points. ~Aracor FYI: The wizard (specialist) is completely out of 5th level spells, unless they have 20+ int. In which case they have one 5th level spell slot left Psion can 42 damage 4 time before only having stat point bonus points left (14-15: 9, 16-17: 13, 18-19: 18 (1 more time)) and then is completely spent for the day.
DisposableHero_ 05-19-05, 08:44 PM	Nope, I read them both. I found the old thread first in someone's sig, and that led to this one. Like I said, I was bored at work. And I was also surprised that freedom of movement didn't appear on the arcane list. WOW :eek: thats some bored! Shapechange can get sick real fast if the DM gives you access to any shape in any book as long as it fits in the hit die limit. However, it does have the qualifier of 'familiar', and it's up to the DM to decide what exactly that means. I'm not sure where the problems with gate even are, to be honest. It's never come up as something terribly abusable in any of my games, and I've seen some broken things. I'll happily admit that shadow evocation and shadow conjuration give flexibility to a sorcerer, but those come at a cost of being weaker than the normal spells. Metamagic rods are poweful, that I'll admit. Probably overpowered. Well, in most cases, if someone out to break the game is going out of their way to abuse shapechange they're going to stock up on their knowledges to get "familiarity" no matter how strict a DM is. I don't let my players go hog wild, but I'd rather make the fights tougher than argue what "famliarity" is in terms of polymorph effects. Gate is both an incredibly flexible utility spells, powerful summoning spell, and powerful resource gatherer. Over on the CO boards it tends to get used in about 1 of 4 of the higher end builds, and frequently the less powerful builds list gate as a major asset of their build when they can use it. For the worst abuse, see the H.I.V.E. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=386506) to which gate is used to gather resources for producing the hivemind. Perhaps not the worst use of gate, but the worst build I've seen gate be a big part of. Wow, heck of a list. A few of those I'll agree are overpowered, most I won't. (Silent Image? That's certainly an unusual one in the overpowered list). But I'll address this a bit better further down. Silent Image is tossed in there so level 1 spells are represented. While it doesn't do anything overpowering directly, it is far too flexible and useful to merrit being a first level spell. At low levels it can be used to render several low will save opponents useless, or put them in a very bad spot. "I silent image a sack over the fighter's head, he must make a will save or he can't see". At worst if he fails, he spends his time hopelessly attempting to remove it, at best he staggers around blind. "I use silent image to create a wall of unworked stone around us to hide in". A failed will save lets a silent image mimic wall of stone or iron for combat purposes. It can create a squad of phantom paladins to distract opponents, a phantom monster to flank with your rogue, any number of things, just depends on how creative you are and how much the DM is willing to put up with. Not really deserving of being on that list, but I wanted to have a first level spell on there :). This I don't agree with. And I think the reason for it is that there's a misconception of what direct damage is supposed to do. Especially at high levels, I don't think it's intended to be completely maul everything in sight for the simple reason that it's generally more dependable than spells that are 'save negates' because barring special abilities, SOMETHING will get through. Also, the system was built around a party. Even if you can't completely obliterate something with direct damage, you can soften it up the point where a melee character can take it out better, maybe even making it into cleave-bait. If you use direct damage as support, I can attest from a friend of mine's style of play that it works very well and effectively in a group. A friend of mine plays a sorcerer who happily starts out the fight with a fireball, ice storm, cone of cold, whatever else he happens to have that he thinks will be effective, and then the fighter charges in and starts knocking them down. After the punishment the direct damage dealt the ones who failed their saves, a stiff breeze will knock them down, and a fighter or barbarian dedicated to melee fighting can manage substantially more than a stiff breeze. At the levels I'm talking about (14+) a fighter or barbarian optimized for melee combat can do a lot more damage on his full attack than a horrid wilting, without dipping into frenzied berserker or dervish and hiking the stakes again. A good melee character can churn through the hit points of anything of its CR or less (excluding maybe dragons if you're talking core only) and doesn't need direct damage to soften up his targets for him. In this regard a caster wanting to play a support role is going to be best isolating and negating his opposition's offense to make sure that the baddies stare down the party's walking woodchipper in the fair fight they are destined to lose. This is why wall type spells are very powerful, and why you'll hear about battlefield control wizards from a lot of the people here. Furthermore, I probably get more bang for my buck casting haste on the melee guy than firing a spell that will do 1/2 of my level in d6s. Now the strategy you mention, is more useful for a psion with energy missile, because the save is likely to be failed, and they can script it to their opponent, like we said, it helps make a psion a better blaster than a wizard or sorc, but it doesn't make them better or more powerful than a wizard or sorc. True, but with the free scaling only to a certain point on spells, and the fact that you can only use a spell 4 levels lower, I think you'll find that's not as much of a gulf as you'd think. At level 9, a psion could throw a 9d6 energy ray and a quickened 3d6 energy ray, for a total of 12d6 damage; average 42. A wizard could throw a 13.5d6 empowered lightning bolt and a quickened magic missile, 5d4+5, average damage 65ish. But then the wizard would most likely be completely out of 5th level spell slots in general, a specialist would have one left, and they couldn't do that damage again. The psion could do 42 damage per round until they ran out of power points. But the caster level isn't considered lower, at least for the purposes of breaking power resistance. Again, I don't like this comparison, because its: A) Always tilted heavily towards the perspective of the person psoting B) I'd rarely find the situation where the course of action laid out was one I'd consider smart C) No one ever posts something truely optimal At least let the psion toss and empowered energy ray for 10.5d6 and follow with a Quickened Energy Ray for 3d6, spend a move to regain one of his foci, then next round fire another empowered for 10.5d6, move action to gain focus, hustle swift, use that move to regain his psicrystal's focus And that wizard could do that if he wanted. But even then, he's still tossing 12d6 empowered scorching rays when he runs out of 5th levels, and 9d6 lightning bolts with his 3rds, and 8d6 scorching rays with his 2nds. He tails off a little, but he lasts a lot longer. I think thats all that was directed at me :D Thanks for the debate though, it was fun. ~Aracor Any time, thanks for keeping it logical and civil.
RadicalTaoist 05-20-05, 02:17 PM	I'm missing how it's half as efficient. It's half as efficient as it COULD be if they didn't make their save? And yes, if he tries to use it against undead he's S.O.L., but (usually) they'll know better. There can be trickery going on, like my example, but in general they'll choose to use a different power in that situation. Mind blank is a better example for that, because you may not know until too late that there's a mind blank going on. The lost efficiency comes from the tactical costs, the most glaring being the combination of a touch range and needing to be seriously injured in the first place. Only way around that is to augment for the burst effect, but that makes it way more pp-intensive than Vigor by far. And with a nonaugmentable DC, you'll see the great majority of foes saving against it easily. With all the mitigating factors, ET:H is good, but just not that uber. I highly doubt you'll see any non-telepaths spending an Expanded Knowledge on it. See my above post about direct damage. I'll let Disposable deal with the calculations, but note that you are saying it's best as a team tactic. Which means it's not overpowered. If direct damage was the end all be all own the game tactic at high levels, then the Psions would be overpowered because of their superiority in this field (and Warmages even more so). As is, direct damage is not strong enough to make the Psion's advantage at it unbalanced. Psions are good at dd. Mages are better at save or dies, deathtrap construction, and summons. Wheee. True, but this is still more options than a prepared caster, or even a spontaneous caster. Options at a tactical price, redundant options (are you really gonna need all the elemental substitutions?), not overpowered at all. The main abuse is getting yourself an item creation feat, making what you want with it, and then switching to another item creation feat, or even a metamagic feat for adventuring and then a creation feat for downtime. Hmm. Admittedly, I would allow this in my game if the XP costs for Reformation were high enough. *runs off to check XPH* Thanks for the debate though, it was fun. ~Aracor Indeed. I want to echo DH here and say that a pleasant, friendly debate, sometimes the exception rather than the rule sadly, is a joy to see on the boards. Feeling Groovy,:ayyyy!: The Radical Taoist
Kuraito 05-21-05, 10:08 AM	I've dropped the whole "wizards suck thing". Your right, this isn't the place to discus it, maybe i'll start a thread but I doubt it. To much annoyance as I tend to feel obligated to read threads I start and I know how it'll turn out. Anywho, I am seeing a flaw in alot of peoples defense of psionics. The Warlock class was based on the principle that the average spellcaster would have enough spell slots by 5th level where it wasn't the spells per day that effects him, but the number of rounds he has to use them(hence the "no limit" invocations). If you understand what I'm saying here, then you will see why I think of Augmentation as a strength, not a weakness as it lets Psionics get more per round then wizards can. Even if Wizards and Sorcerers do more damage over all, the real question of a spellcaster is how well do they do PER ROUND. In this area, I give it to Psionics, because on average they have more per round impact then any other spellcaster and the reason they have this impact is mainly AUGMENTATION. Other factors are there (being able to choose different elements, No Power Resist powers, ect) but augmentation is what lets Psionics get in a heavy punch round after round. A psionic dosn't drop off as time goes by, there last hit is prolly as good as there first, and by the above therory, they SHOULD have the PP to go the alloted encounters per day. THAT is why i think Psionics are better.
Sir Elton 05-21-05, 10:14 PM	That was a truly great post. I'm calling for sections of it to be added to the main myth frontposts. Done. Although at the top. I'll change it if I can think of a more suitable place. Maybe a new myth entry. :D
Sir Elton 05-21-05, 10:16 PM	Even if Wizards and Sorcerers do more damage over all, the real question of a spellcaster is how well do they do PER ROUND. In this area, I give it to Psionics, because on average they have more per round impact then any other spellcaster and the reason they have this impact is mainly AUGMENTATION. Other factors are there (being able to choose different elements, No Power Resist powers, ect) but augmentation is what lets Psionics get in a heavy punch round after round. A psionic dosn't drop off as time goes by, there last hit is prolly as good as there first, and by the above therory, they SHOULD have the PP to go the alloted encounters per day. THAT is why i think Psionics are better. Just remember that the psion gives up more strength in order to augment his power.
RadicalTaoist 05-21-05, 11:08 PM	I've dropped the whole "wizards suck thing". Your right, this isn't the place to discus it, maybe i'll start a thread but I doubt it. To much annoyance as I tend to feel obligated to read threads I start and I know how it'll turn out. Anywho, I am seeing a flaw in alot of peoples defense of psionics. The Warlock class was based on the principle that the average spellcaster would have enough spell slots by 5th level where it wasn't the spells per day that effects him, but the number of rounds he has to use them(hence the "no limit" invocations). If you understand what I'm saying here, then you will see why I think of Augmentation as a strength, not a weakness as it lets Psionics get more per round then wizards can. Even if Wizards and Sorcerers do more damage over all, the real question of a spellcaster is how well do they do PER ROUND. In this area, I give it to Psionics, because on average they have more per round impact then any other spellcaster and the reason they have this impact is mainly AUGMENTATION. Other factors are there (being able to choose different elements, No Power Resist powers, ect) but augmentation is what lets Psionics get in a heavy punch round after round. A psionic dosn't drop off as time goes by, there last hit is prolly as good as there first, and by the above therory, they SHOULD have the PP to go the alloted encounters per day. THAT is why i think Psionics are better. So how does an avg damage of somewhere from 0-8 a round sound? It's probably going to be what you've got with your crossbow if you try going nova too often.
Kuraito 05-21-05, 11:49 PM	So how does an avg damage of somewhere from 0-8 a round sound? It's probably going to be what you've got with your crossbow if you try going nova too often. Um, Did you read my post? That shouldn't happen. You should have the PP to go "Nova" for the 3-5 encounters per day. True at 7 or 8th encounter you are hurting, but 1. This is an extrodinary day, likely to tax even the melee people to there limit, 2. While the other spellcastrers have stuff left, its dropped off substantially. If you ever run out of power points it was either from a overpowered challenge or teammates not pulling there weight. Other then those two scenarios, your PP should MORE then last you going Nova for 3-5 encounters. Example: at 5th level a wizard has 2 3rd level spells and 3 2nd level spells. Sorcers have no 3rd but 5 2nd. Psions and Wilders have 35 PP, enough to Nova 7 time, equal to 7 3rd level spells (higher in the wilders case). So in the course of a 4 encounter day, you can nova 7 times, impacting combat more then your other spell slinging pals and ending combat sooner, saveing everyone resources (spells, HP, Items, ending combat sooner=good). With how much impact you have per round and assuming your other party members pull there weight, your PP should go all 4 encounters. And if heaven forbid you had to use an extra nova on number 3 and were 1 short for 4, the resources you've saved that party ensures they can more then handle the problem. this also assumes that you don't play smart like letting melee people finish off weakened enemies and using half powered shot to kill weak enemies. both Conserve PP ensuring you even MORE milage. I'm not seeing a flaw here.
Alienfreak 05-22-05, 05:17 AM	Um, Did you read my post? That shouldn't happen. You should have the PP to go "Nova" for the 3-5 encounters per day. So you have 100 PPs per Encounter. For Buffs/Attacks/Heals. Have fun trying to go Nova with that. Go play an wizard.
RadicalTaoist 05-22-05, 09:20 AM	Precisely. The most crazy minmaxed-for-pps character I can think of, level 20 kalashtar psion with 34 Int and nothing but Psionic Talent feats will have roughly 540 pp a day, or 135 power points per encounter of equal CR. This is giving up Overchannel, Empower Power, and all Expanded Knowledges - he's got none of those. How nova can you go with 135 pps an encounter? Really? It seems like a lot of pps, but it's not that much. Somewhere back in the old thread I did a pp expenditure layout to counter an argument that as a gish a psion could become invincible, crazy resistances, mind blank, better saves than a pally with defensive prescience, unholy ac, etc. etc. etc. And he could have it all up quick with temporal acceleration. Did the numbers and turns out to have all that, our psion was using something over 200 pp an encounter, not counting the hour-long buffs (inertial armor, for example) he'd cast at the beginning of the day. I don't know how it goes for blasting rather than buffing, someone can do an expenditure analysis. What's the most damage you can get out of 135 pps, and what's the quickest damage (fewest rounds) you can get out of 135 pps. I suspect that it will turn out to be not that uber.
Arterion 05-22-05, 04:28 PM	It's not ALL about having more PP's. It's more efficient to use Maximize Power and Empower Power (max damage*1.5), but that requires you to take a few other feats in order to be able to pull it off easily. 20 PP = 20d6 (avg 70) 20 PP = 96 flat (maximized) 20 PP = 126 flat (maximized and empowered) Having a huge pool of PP isn't always the most efficient method, you're going to get more damage per PP by using metapsionic feats. This also leads to doing more damage per round, meaning you prevail more quickly. And don't forget, the Dweomer of Transference is your best friend. It converts a spell into PP equal to the number of PP rqeuired to manifest a same level power minus one. Get a magic item that casts the spell at will. Then you cast it on yourself, then each round thereafter, cast it again to give you 6 PP a round. Market Price would be 50,400 gp. ;-p
Suldarr'essalar 05-22-05, 05:16 PM	It's not ALL about having more PP's. It's more efficient to use Maximize Power and Empower Power (max damage*1.5), Just a reminder. You maximize only the base damage, not the bonus dice for empower power. So it's (maximize base dice+1.5 base dice) rather than (maximize*1.5). For example: crystal shard damage 10d6 maximized: 60, empowered: 10d6 (base)+5d6 (empowered) maximized and empowered: 60+5d6
Arterion 05-22-05, 05:27 PM	Sorry, I overlooked that.
Lord Schpungus 05-22-05, 05:33 PM	Because that's how it works. max base dice +.5*base dice.
Alienfreak 05-22-05, 05:38 PM	It's not ALL about having more PP's. It's more efficient to use Maximize Power and Empower Power (max damage*1.5), but that requires you to take a few other feats in order to be able to pull it off easily. 20 PP = 20d6 (avg 70) 20 PP = 96 flat (maximized) 20 PP = 126 flat (maximized and empowered) Having a huge pool of PP isn't always the most efficient method, you're going to get more damage per PP by using metapsionic feats. This also leads to doing more damage per round, meaning you prevail more quickly. And since you got only 1 Psionic Focus per round ... you can get 96 out of it. If you use your 120 PPs (average ... if you got about 34 Int) for getting the most damage out of it you can do 96 damage for 6 rounds = 576 damage. If you try to go Nova with it you can get roughly 150 damage per round. But it will screw your PPs up in about 3 rounds. And remember: You havent even healed you once or even used one buff. If you want to do it that way, just play an wizard. He can deal the same damage but for longer.
Bacris 05-22-05, 05:41 PM	A teen psion can maximize and empower one power. Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment + Psionic Meditation + Hustle
Alienfreak 05-22-05, 05:43 PM	A teen psion can maximize and empower one power. Psicrystal Affinity + Psicrystal Containment + Psionic Meditation + Hustle With that you will have a hard time having all the feats you need. And your PPs will drop to about 420. Thatll be not to many PPs for each encounter.
Arterion 05-22-05, 05:43 PM	So that would mean. 20 PP = 84+7d6 (avg. 108) Still a more efficient spending of powerpoints, but I don't think that's quite worth it, having to gain two focuses. An better option: 20 PP = 120 (twin maximized)
Suldarr'essalar 05-22-05, 06:05 PM	An better option: 20 PP = 120 (twin maximized) IIRC you cannot applay the same metapsionic/metamagic feat more than once.
Tempest Stormwind 05-22-05, 06:40 PM	IIRC you cannot applay the same metapsionic/metamagic feat more than once. Twin and Maximize are different feats. But yes, you're right.
Arterion 05-22-05, 08:26 PM	IIRC you cannot applay the same metapsionic/metamagic feat more than once. How is that applying it more than once? And you CAN have two psionic foci. You have one, and with the rights feats, your Psicrystal can have the other one.
Alienfreak 05-22-05, 10:22 PM	And then you have: 463 PPs. Thats about 110 PPs per encounter. If you do an maximum Schism + Overpower + Hustle Nova you spend: 44 PPs per round and 7 for Schism. So you can do that for 2 rounds dealing not that much damage. My wizard can do that, 2. Without that many Feats and with a longer overall standing power. And you dont even have a single buff runing ...
Kuraito 05-23-05, 02:25 AM	100 pp isn't enough? THATS 5 9TH LEVELS SPELLS! Can a wizard drop 5 9th level spells an encounter, for 3-5 encounters? Further more, This assumes your not using a non-damage power, which will often not need the full 20 points for its effect. You have the equivilant of 9th levels spells, which means more impact per round, which means quicker combat which equals good. Unless your party is sitting on there ass, 5 9th level spells is MORE then enough per encounter. Over all, In 17 rounds, you let fly 17 9th le el powers. A Wizard has to use alot more rounds then you to equal that power and the key to spellcasters isn't Times per Day, its Impact per Round. all you keep saying is that you'll run out of power points, but i'm telling you, YOU WON'T. Not as long as your party isn't sitting on there ass. 5 9th level spells? Not enough for an encounter? Is no one READING this? I apologize. But all I keep hearing is that you'll run out of PP, but the math and my experiance says otherwise. I have only seen a psion run out of PPs at a bad time once before and she still killed most of the enemies before it happened, so it wasn't a problem. I mean honestly, I think my example from my early post explained what I'm talking about rather well, did no one read it? 7 3rd level spells vs 2 3rd, 3 2nd, 4 1st level spells/4 2nd 7 1st, keeping in mind the that Impact per round means more? Who wins? If you can't go through 4 combats with 7 of the best spells a caster can cast at this point, what the hell? Most creatures drop to 2 3rd level spells easily at this point, you got a one spell cushion here.
Alienfreak 05-23-05, 07:24 AM	100 pp isn't enough? THATS 5 9TH LEVELS SPELLS! Can a wizard drop 5 9th level spells an encounter, for 3-5 encounters? Further more, This assumes your not using a non-damage power, which will often not need the full 20 points for its effect. You have the equivilant of 9th levels spells, which means more impact per round, which means quicker combat which equals good. Unless your party is sitting on there ass, 5 9th level spells is MORE then enough per encounter. Over all, In 17 rounds, you let fly 17 9th le el powers. A Wizard has to use alot more rounds then you to equal that power and the key to spellcasters isn't Times per Day, its Impact per Round. all you keep saying is that you'll run out of power points, but i'm telling you, YOU WON'T. Not as long as your party isn't sitting on there ass. 5 9th level spells? Not enough for an encounter? Is no one READING this? Before claiming that other peoples cant read you should probably read my post first and comprehend it. Ok. 1st round: Temporal Acceleration (3rds) 18 PPs Accelerated 1: Various protection power 1 15 PPs Accelerated 2: Various protection power 2 15 PPs Accelerated 3: Extended Schism 9 PPs & Regain Focus. 1st round: twined maxed overchanneled Energy Ray (Fire) 182 DMG 23 PPs 1st round schism: overchanneled Energy Ray (fire) 16d6+16 (62 DMG) 16 PPs 1st round move: regain Focus 1st round: 96 PPs 244 DMG dealt and 8d8 damage taken 2nd round: maxed overchanneled Energy Ray (Fire) 133 DMG 23 PPs 2nd round schism: overchanneled Energy Ray (Fire) 16d6+16 (62 DMG) 16 PPs 2nd round: Hustle 7 PPs 2nd round move & hustle: Regain both Foci 2nd round: 195 DMG dealt and 46 PPs spend After 2 rounds you have now schism still running, 2 protection spells and dealt a total of 439 DMG and spend 142 PPs (more than you are allowed per encounter). Yeah ... your direct damage "roxx" A wizard with 34 Int has: 1: 7 7 2: 7 14 3: 7 21 4: 7 28 5: 6 30 6: 6 36 7: 6 42 8: 6 48 9: 5 45 Thats 271 Spell Levels. Tahts 67,5 Spell Levels per encounter. And i can easily match the damage of the Psion and still have more reserves left. I just miss to see how the Psion outshines the Wizard here.
Suldarr'essalar 05-23-05, 10:18 AM	Twin and Maximize are different feats. But yes, you're right.Sorry. My mistake. It was late in the evening and I thought that it was twice maximized. Cheers.And you CAN have two psionic foci. You have one, and with the rights feats, your Psicrystal can have the other one.You can also use more than one psi focus at a time using a feat from Races of Eberron (IIRC), but I don't remember what was its name.
Tempest Stormwind 05-23-05, 10:37 AM	Sorry. My mistake. It was late in the evening and I thought that it was twice maximized. Cheers.You can also use more than one psi focus at a time using a feat from Races of Eberron (IIRC), but I don't remember what was its name. It's an epic feat in the XPH called Epic Psionic Focus. Nothing in Races of Eberron lets you do what you describe, so it must still be late for you. :D
Suldarr'essalar 05-23-05, 12:23 PM	I'm sure there was a feat that worked something like this: You make a concentration check. If you make it, you can use one feat that requires you to expend psionic focus as if it required having a psi focus. The DC is increased by 5 for every other feat you want to use that way this day. A 8h rest (4h in case of elans/elves) resets the DC to normal. It had narrow mind as the prerequirement (maybe it wasn't from Races of Eberron)
Alienfreak 05-23-05, 12:46 PM	I'm sure there was a feat that worked something like this: You make a concentration check. If you make it, you can use one feat that requires you to expend psionic focus as if it required having a psi focus. The DC is increased by 5 for every other feat you want to use that way this day. A 8h rest (4h in case of elans/elves) resets the DC to normal. It had narrow mind as the prerequirement. Sounds utterly overpowered ....
Suldarr'essalar 05-23-05, 01:56 PM	Ok. Found it. It's on www.planewalker.com Flowing Focus [Psionic; Faction-Dependent] An enlightened spirit allows the mind to remain unhindered by common disruptions. Faction : Transcendent Order Prerequisite : Wis 13, Narrow Mind Benefit: You must be psionically focused to use this feat. While attempting to activate a psionic feat that requires the expenditure of your psionic focus, you can attempt a Concentration check to successfully activate the feat and still remain focused. The initial DC of the check is 15, but it is increased by +5 for each time you had previously attempted this check. Resting for 8 hours resets the DC to 20. Is it overpowered? I don't know. Also: is planewalker.com, or athas.org concidered official?
Arterion 05-23-05, 02:01 PM	Psicrystal containment. It's in the XPH.
Alienfreak 05-23-05, 02:06 PM	Also: is planewalker.com, or athas.org concidered official? Those are Fanprojects ... so NO.
Sir Elton 05-24-05, 03:28 PM	Those are Fanprojects ... so NO. Yes, they are.
cvazi 05-24-05, 03:48 PM	Yes, they are. They are no more official than Athas.org- Meaning that they are not WotC published and are therefore not official.
Sir Elton 05-24-05, 08:25 PM	They are no more official than Athas.org- Meaning that they are not WotC published and are therefore not official. All material on Athas.org and all the other official dead campaign setting websites are considered official. Except material published on the Dragonlance Nexus. Dragonlance Campaign Setting material is published by Soveriegn Stone. But material found on Athas.org is simply official for all intents and purposes. After all, Athas.org is the official website of the Dark Sun campaign setting on the web.
Tempest Stormwind 05-24-05, 08:32 PM	All material on Athas.org and all the other official dead campaign setting websites are considered official. Except material published on the Dragonlance Nexus. Dragonlance Campaign Setting material is published by Soveriegn Stone. But material found on Athas.org is simply official for all intents and purposes. After all, Athas.org is the official website of the Dark Sun campaign setting on the web. They are considered official only for games using their respective settings. So yes, it's official, but only in a given context.
player1 05-25-05, 01:29 AM	Well, FR is official, but people still avoid using their spells and feats when making wizard balance discussiosns, becaue those feats and abilities are supposed to be used in that setting.
Alienfreak 05-25-05, 04:53 AM	Those pages are official by no means. They are "core" if you play in their setting, but they are NOT official. Thea fall under the OGL, but they still have nothing to do with WotC. FR is made by WotC so its official WotC stuff. But its still campaign specific.
Sir Elton 05-25-05, 08:07 AM	So, you will not be moved from your position then? Despite what you say, the material on those pages are official.
Bane's hand 05-25-05, 08:34 AM	Sir Elton, are you hterefore suggesting that the material i have submitted to planewalker.com (as Bane) is official? :cheer: I am an official writer!!! Think of the fame, the fortune, the chicks...... Take time to read the Planewalker FAQ (http://www.planewalker.com/about/faq.php?PHPSESSID=a0cf64f5bd6206d965ec6b 20b8abf8dd) and the Athas.org FAQ (http://www.athas.org/faq/) and do not test our common sense please.
Alienfreak 05-25-05, 08:59 AM	Those are FANPROJECTS since WotC didnt want Planescape any more. So if i open another Fanproject all i do is considered official? ...
Suldarr'essalar 05-25-05, 01:11 PM	Those are FANPROJECTS since WotC didnt want Planescape any more. So if i open another Fanproject all i do is considered official? ...The problem with those fan projects is that they have WotC licence for those settings (Dark Sun for athas.org, and Planescape for planewalker.com). But anyway, let's get back to the topic.
Sir Elton 05-26-05, 03:17 PM	Yes, lets.
Snowbones 05-30-05, 06:53 PM	Longtime DM but rookie with psionics 3.5. I have a guy in my group who is 11th level (psion 1/psychic warrior 7/Illithid Slayer 4). 1. He has a 36 armor class (all legit). I treat psionics as magic. When you do this, do you subject the character to the same armor check penalties and arcane casting percentages that other spellcasters are subject to? I mean this character is unbalancing the game. 2. I'm having trouble calculating his power points. He has a +3 intel bonus but is showing 69 power points. I'm not seeing where he gets this. 3. How am I calculating his manifester level since he's a split class? Sock it to me. Snowbones
Tsuul 05-30-05, 07:48 PM	His manifester levels for Psion and psywar are seprate. The ilithid slayer adds manifester levels to one of the two(his choice). All his power points are in one big pool. He has two ability modifiers. Inteligence and wisdom for psion and psywar classes respectivly. We will need both to figure out his PPs. Also is he 11 or 12? You show 12 levels of classes. Psionics never has armor check penalties for casting. The "magic and psionics are the same" rules basicly only mean that detect magic will detect psionics and so on. Exactly the same way that a divine caster casting detect magic can detect arcane magic. Spells interact the same with powers as they do with other spells.
Votan 05-30-05, 08:28 PM	1. Every Psion that I have played with has "gone Nova" and I have only seen the psion run out of PP at a bad time ONCE out of 3 different Psions. I've done this frequently as a low level psion. It's not too hard to go dry in a single encounter if the opponents are numerous. In my case, it was a horde of zombies and energy push that leeched the psion dry. 3. save or Die= Dumb. The DCs are so pathetic for the level that by the time you get it if you kill anything GOOD, thank your lucky stars he rolled low. Sitting in combat throwing All or Nothing spells at the enemy that more often or not do nothing dosn't seem fun at all. Compared to a Psion who can lay some Smack regardless of what the enemy has (power resist? Energy resist? see above) and both psions and clerics do have some of those precious Save or Dies(or things that mimick save or die, or are save ordies, but BETTER), so its a moot point anyway. Sadly, reflex save spells turn into this agaisnt anything with evasion. :( There is always a siccors, paper, stones element in D&D. Psions are nice but I can do more with a well built wizard specialist or sorcerer without the risks of going dry (which seems to happen to me frequently).
DisposableHero_ 05-30-05, 08:37 PM	Longtime DM but rookie with psionics 3.5. I have a guy in my group who is 11th level (psion 1/psychic warrior 7/Illithid Slayer 4). 1. He has a 36 armor class (all legit). I treat psionics as magic. When you do this, do you subject the character to the same armor check penalties and arcane casting percentages that other spellcasters are subject to? I mean this character is unbalancing the game. 2. I'm having trouble calculating his power points. He has a +3 intel bonus but is showing 69 power points. I'm not seeing where he gets this. 3. How am I calculating his manifester level since he's a split class? Sock it to me. Snowbones 1. If he has an armor class like this, he likely gets sucker punched by a dispel magic, if not, I'd like to see what he is using. His base attack is +9, so the lack of a third attack should keep his offense a little below the party warriors (maybe not depending on how they are done) 2. Did he apply his 3 Illithid Slayer increases to Psion or Psychic Warrior? If psion, than his PP is 15 + 17 + 6 + 3.5 times his wisdom mod so to have 69 PP he would need... [69-15-17-6]/3.5 = about a +9 wisdom modifier If Psychic Warrior it would be 2 + 27 + 1 + 5*Wis mod [69-2-27-1]/5 = means he would need about a +8 wisdom modifier Since none of those work out evenly, if 69 is right he must have racial or feat based power points The most these could account for would be 55 points (kalashtar with psionic talent 8 times and track for his feats). So it is certainly possible for him to have 69 power points at that level. 3. His manifester level for the powers he learned with psion is between 1 and 4 depending on where he put his illithid slayer increases. His manifester level for the powers he learned with psychic warrior is between 7 and 10 again depending on where the Illithid Slayer levels went. The Illithid Slayer gish is perhaps the most powerful thing that can be done with 3.5 psionics, and if not it is certainly up there. If your player is an optimized case he likely has power attack, expansion, and a two handed weapon running his offense, and the massive AC running his defense. Potentially he could be using a king of smack claw build, but that is not as good at this level as the two handed weapon route and is even more vulnerable to dispelling. Combating this brute is a matter of selective tactics. Some hints: 1) He walks around with a big "Dispel Me" sign painted on his back. At that level he can't possibly be using Temporal Acceleration to buff up instantly because no Illithid Slayer of his level (and no pure psywarrior at all) can use temp accel naturally, so he likely has to spend a good deal of time setting up. If he isn't make sure you force him to spend that time and more importantly those power points. Use 3 or 4 encounters per day to keep him on his toes, and start some of them off with a dispel when he buffs himself up, this might not seem to change things in that encounter, but if you make sure to keep careful track of his power point total you'll realise how fast he'll exhaust his resources. 2) If his AC is a problem, ignore it. That character is level 11 and has 3 classes, all of which are low reflex save classes. His base reflex save is +3. He might rock in melee, but when a fireball hits all he can do is stand their and take it like a man. Similarly, Psionics has a number of solid options, the best of the best being energy missile (fire), which should have him crying home to mommy in no time flat. Also, I'll bet the largest chunks of that AC come from his armor and force screen, and I'm willing to bet that touch attacks will have an easy time against him. A wilder specializing in dissipating touch, or a scorching ray toting wizard, or an archer with psionic shot, or a grappler, or any number of other things that circumvent his enormous AC should cut him down to size. 3) He likely doesn't have the hit points. He has a character that demands solid contributions from 5 of 6 stats, con is likely not his highest attribute, and he's taken a level of a d4 hp class. Wearing his hit points down shouldn't take too long (and if he starts using vigor, all the better, he's wasting his time and power points because you can just hit him with another damage spell) A poster on these boards named Tempest Stormwind once described these builds as being like an arrow, very powerful in a single direction, the trick as a DM is to know the direction and attack from somewhere else. Hope that helps :D
Rahie_Leios 05-30-05, 09:11 PM	Longtime DM but rookie with psionics 3.5. I have a guy in my group who is 11th level (psion 1/psychic warrior 7/Illithid Slayer 4). 1. He has a 36 armor class (all legit). I treat psionics as magic. When you do this, do you subject the character to the same armor check penalties and arcane casting percentages that other spellcasters are subject to? I mean this character is unbalancing the game. 2. I'm having trouble calculating his power points. He has a +3 intel bonus but is showing 69 power points. I'm not seeing where he gets this. 3. How am I calculating his manifester level since he's a split class? Sock it to me. Snowbones And hey, if you cant find any other way to hurt him, just through a few psion killers made by a powerfull wizard with a lot of reflex based damaging spells. trust me he will go down ((Rahie Leios, long time dm with a lot of Psionics exp))
Votan 05-30-05, 11:06 PM	Further, to fully utilize these feats, the character must take another feat, Psionic Meditation, to regain their focus in a timely manner, otherwise they are useless for a full round while they refocus. A feat-intensive Psychic Warrior, such as one who utilizes Deep Impact + Greater Psionic Weapon each round must have all of the following feats in order to work: Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation Something else worthy of note is that Psionic Meditation requires a 13 wisdom. Not a big deal for a pyschic warrior but anybody else who wants to take this feat needs to invest points in an ability that does not directly add much. With the elite array, it's possible for a psion or a wilder but rarely the ideal choice. With rolled stats it can become actively hard to do. Let me tell you the stroy of the day I rolled 15 14 12 8 8 8 and decided to play a psion with a wisdom of 13+. It was pretty grisly. This is a major balance factor for the psionic feats that is often overlooked.
Lord Schpungus 05-31-05, 01:29 AM	Well, with an average ability score of 10.8, you're a bit on the underside of most campaign ability spreads, I'd wager. The average of the elite array is 12. With a 15 14 12 8 8 8 and a burning desire for psionic meditation, I'd go Int 15, Con 14, Wis 12, str/dex/cha 8, put my 4th level point into Wisdom and take psionic meditation at 5th, your first opportunity to take it. You're weak, grumpy, and uncoordinated, but you've got powers of the mind, an uncanny fortitude wrought from mountain dew/dorito subsistence, and the wisdom to make it on the streets.
Votan 05-31-05, 01:36 AM	Well, with an average ability score of 10.8, you're a bit on the underside of most campaign ability spreads, I'd wager. The average of the elite array is 12. With a 15 14 12 8 8 8 and a burning desire for psionic meditation, I'd go Int 15, Con 14, Wis 12, str/dex/cha 8, put my 4th level point into Wisdom and take psionic meditation at 5th, your first opportunity to take it. You're weak, grumpy, and uncoordinated, but you've got powers of the mind, an uncanny fortitude wrought from mountain dew/dorito subsistence, and the wisdom to make it on the streets. Sadly, I did the reverse and put the 14 into wisdom so that I could take another feat at first level as well (Inquistor). It did not go well. But even with the elite array, it isn't a "no-brainer" to drop a 13 into wisdom as a psion may have uses for strength and/oir charisma. Str 12 (10 if telepath) Dex 13 Con 14 Int 15 Wis 8 Cha 10 (12 if telepath) is closer to my ideal distribution for a psion. For a wilder (where they have good class skills and mroe melee options) I actually like Str 12 (10 if archer) Dex 10 (12 if archer) Con 14 Int 13 Wis 8 Cha 15 as the array. Certainly you can take psionic mediation but it has an indirect cost and these costs help with balance.
Sir Elton 06-01-05, 09:23 AM	Something else worthy of note is that Psionic Meditation requires a 13 wisdom. Not a big deal for a pyschic warrior but anybody else who wants to take this feat needs to invest points in an ability that does not directly add much. With the elite array, it's possible for a psion or a wilder but rarely the ideal choice. With rolled stats it can become actively hard to do. Let me tell you the stroy of the day I rolled 15 14 12 8 8 8 and decided to play a psion with a wisdom of 13+. It was pretty grisly. This is a major balance factor for the psionic feats that is often overlooked. :)
Red_Decker 06-02-05, 02:36 AM	Does anyone else feel like this thread is like a game of Wack-a-Mole? One psionics repressor comes on to fight his battle and foolishly believe we haven't possibly talked about the same thing a dozen times already, we wack'em down and then another one pops up. I'm not being very productive today. For Slayer problems add grappling. Yes I know they can still use powers but it's an AoO for each try or forcing a bunch of concentration checks. Unless he has Grip of Iron, then forget what I just said. But if he doesn't. A monk with a necklace of natural weapons enhanced with mindcrusher will cause him to hemorage PP, and if he's using Powers while grappled they will go even quicker. A Monk deals Unarmed damage with each successful grapple check. Monks that are truely dedicated to grappling will have around +20 at this time given weapon focus +1, BAB +8, Str will be around 20 for +5, 4 for Imp.Grapple, +5 or +8 for grapple improving items [gloves of Fearsome +5grip S&F or Gloves of Titan's grip +8]for a grapple check of +23/26, if you make him either a half-giant, goliath, or human with Jotenbrud add another +4 onto it. Which will be around 1d10+5+1d12 on successful pin [Earth's Embrace] The average damage is 17 points halved to 8 PP or 5 for each successful grapple check. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/lady1raven/meepo/Meepo_02.gif
Thramzorean 06-02-05, 03:16 AM	Something else worthy of note is that Psionic Meditation requires a 13 wisdom. Not a big deal for a pyschic warrior but anybody else who wants to take this feat needs to invest points in an ability that does not directly add much. With the elite array, it's possible for a psion or a wilder but rarely the ideal choice. With rolled stats it can become actively hard to do. Let me tell you the stroy of the day I rolled 15 14 12 8 8 8 and decided to play a psion with a wisdom of 13+. It was pretty grisly. This is a major balance factor for the psionic feats that is often overlooked. :) Or, has been pointed out previously, this is actually rather a poor, mechanically speaking, feat and probably would have been better built into the classes in some manner.
DisposableHero_ 06-02-05, 08:01 AM	Does anyone else feel like this thread is like a game of Wack-a-Mole? One psionics repressor comes on to fight his battle and foolishly believe we haven't possibly talked about the same thing a dozen times already, we wack'em down and then another one pops up. :heehee Yes, thats exactly how it feels!
Sir Elton 06-02-05, 08:43 AM	Does anyone else feel like this thread is like a game of Wack-a-Mole? One psionics repressor comes on to fight his battle and foolishly believe we haven't possibly talked about the same thing a dozen times already, we wack'em down and then another one pops up. Maybe we should have a new sound effect. Everytime we defeat a psionics repressor, someone should go *WHACK!*
Tempest Stormwind 06-02-05, 11:12 AM	Maybe we should have a new sound effect. Everytime we defeat a psionics repressor, someone should go *WHACK!* Hmmmm..... since this is very much a stereotype now (the "OMGWTFLOLBBQSAUZ psiconics r teh broken!!!11!!11!!!oneone!!eleven!" stereotype), I propose a resurrection. From this day forth, the sound effect of knocking a misguided antipsi paladin off his high horse and schooling him shall be the ubiquitous *WHAM!* *dig dig dig*. Any objections?
CycloneRanger 06-02-05, 01:22 PM	From this day forth, the sound effect of knocking a misguided antipsi paladin off his high horse and schooling him shall be the ubiquitous *WHAM!* *dig dig dig*. I think defeating an anti-psionics myth already has a sound effect. It is mraow! [KABOOM] Someone said that everytime you repeat [insert tired anti-psi line of reasoning here] God kills a kitten. Thus was born the sound effect.
DisposableHero_ 06-02-05, 01:41 PM	From this day forth, the sound effect of knocking a misguided antipsi paladin off his high horse and schooling him shall be the ubiquitous *WHAM!* *dig dig dig*. Any objections? I second this motion I think defeating an anti-psionics myth already has a sound effect. It is mraow! [KABOOM] Nah, this is the sound effect of the challenge being issued, *WHAM!* *dig dig dig* shall be the sound effect of victory
Vloorshad 06-02-05, 06:09 PM	I second this motion Nah, this is the sound effect of the challenge being issued, *WHAM!* *dig dig dig* shall be the sound effect of victory Sounds good to me. Now all we need is a Constructor to make all those ACs with shovels.
RadicalTaoist 06-02-05, 07:54 PM	Yeah, that sounds about right. Don't forget *moobak* WOARM for every time we make a psionic conversion. :D
serow_#R 06-08-05, 01:09 PM	i realise this might be not the proper thread, but still i don't think starting a new thread is worthwhile for a simple question. i've been reading through this thread and only just started on the 1st few pages of the other myth thread, and i've been wondering. most of the comparisons have only involved the psion vs whoever, and not many are made of the fighting classes. i have gathered from the 1st post and various posts all over that the slayer is generally considered one of the best gish prcs available for psionic characters... but i want to ask why? are there no other prcs comparable to the slayer? from what i see, for a fighting prc, it has full bab but it's expected. it has only 1 good save. it adds 9 manifester levels so it's quite a bonus compared to other supernatural abilities etc, but there are prcs that give full progression. it cannot be detected through powers/spells and is immune to mind-affecting but there are still plenty of ways to take out a slayer. or is it considered good because it's just the overall best deal compared to all the other psionic prcs? secondly and most importantly, how does the slayer compare to other non-psionic prcs? i mean without resorting to munchkinning, just some basic min/maxing. i gather from all posted that the slayer blows the eldritch knight out of the water but surely that isn't all the non-psionic can offer? how about others like the blackguard, or the dragon disciple? they all sound promising. of course, this is only based on what is available in the SRD, i really don't know what other prcs from other supplements are capable of. i would appreciate it if someone could help me here. *i admit i'm in love with the flavour of psionics, although i'm still very new to the system and only just got the XPH like a week ago, never played a psionic character before either*
RadicalTaoist 06-08-05, 02:05 PM	Well, for starters there are no psionic PrCs that grant full progression, in fact the IS grants the best progression I can think of at the moment. There are nonpsionic PrCs to match the IS though. Fochlucan Lyrist and Sacred Exorcist come to mind (screw full BAB, turning is amazingly useful).
Red_Decker 06-09-05, 01:58 AM	Just like all casting/manifesting classes if they have time to buff they can beat just about anything. If they don't have time to buff, they will do exceptionally well with combat ability and can throw some powers down range but against anything that's either not psionic or mindless they will have troubles. Some theories were listed but no build were ever presented to show a truely unstoppable IS, in fact a few of us even showed monk builds that could beat it with ease. Bottom line just as any class it will only be as good as the person playing it. Depending on the player an Eldritch knight can seem overpowered. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/lady1raven/meepo/Meepo_02.gif
serow_#R 06-10-05, 08:49 AM	agreed! so just what's wrong with the slayer? why would a psion/slayer be considered near overpowered? arcane and divine classes seem more powerful somehow, what with the insane number of choices they have compared to psionic classes
DisposableHero_ 06-10-05, 09:56 AM	agreed! so just what's wrong with the slayer? why would a psion/slayer be considered near overpowered? arcane and divine classes seem more powerful somehow, what with the insane number of choices they have compared to psionic classes The comparison most often drawn was a Psion/Slayer to an Arcane Gish build. That comparison favors the psion slightly for a few reasons. 1) Psionics have no arcane spell failure. Probably a minor point in the run of most things, but that fact that a Psi-Gish can wear heavy armor without affecting their manifesting is fair significant. 2) Psionics have better buff spells. This is a myth, but a common one. Arcane casters have better buff spells, they just don't buff their caster's AC/Hit Points/Attack Bonus directly in the way the buff powers do. People Look at Inertial Armor, Vigor, and Force Screen against Mage Armor, False Life, and Shield, rather than against mirror image, improved blink, haste, stoneskin, Fire Shield, and so on. 3) Slayer directly compares favorably to eldritch knight. Having higher hit points and better special abilities, this is true but not the issue. The true comparison of gish is not slayer vs eldritch knight, its Slayer and Sanctified Mind vs Dragon Slayer, Spell Sword, Eldritch Knight, Sacred Exorcist, Green Star Adept, Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist, Fist of Raziel, .... (you get the picture). On a one for one comparison the slayer tends to come out ahead. Its just too bad its not a one for one comparison. The slayer is a powerful tool for building a psi-gish, it almost single handedly makes psi-gish compete with arcane ones. If the slayer weren't everything you could reasonably expect to get from a gish PrC the psi-gish would not even come close to the arcane ones. 4) People aren't ready to accept the fact that a character concept they don't like (in this case the psi-gish) will get played for any reason other than pure powergaming let alone get played for flavor. As a fighter/caster hybrid, a Ranger/Psion/Slayer is weaker than a pure cleric. Its been argued numerous times that this doesn't make it balanced, since the cleric is overpowered as is, but its a notch in the slayer's favor because the bottom line remains he can still be out performed in what he's built for by a PHB class. The Slayer pushes the envelope for what a Gish PrC should be, and it might cross the line by the smallest of margins, but it is not as bad as people seem to think. You're right on the money, the slayer is not as powerful as what can be garnered from the multitude of options availble to magic using gish.
Votan 06-10-05, 02:27 PM	4) People aren't ready to accept the fact that a character concept they don't like (in this case the psi-gish) will get played for any reason other than pure powergaming let alone get played for flavor. As a fighter/caster hybrid, a Ranger/Psion/Slayer is weaker than a pure cleric. Its been argued numerous times that this doesn't make it balanced, since the cleric is overpowered as is, but its a notch in the slayer's favor because the bottom line remains he can still be out performed in what he's built for by a PHB class. And I think that this says it all. While the clericv may be overpowered, that does not mean that all other concepts need to be drastically sub-cleric in overall optimality. One thing that also needs to be noted with Slayer is that it is not just a prestige class for psions but also for pyschic warriors and wilders. Making it as weak as an eldritch knight would amke it unusable for these classes.
RadicalTaoist 06-10-05, 03:12 PM	Frankly, there's only one way I really think the Slayer needs to be altered: grant full Ranger (and only Ranger) spellcasting, all levels. That would reward the Rangers who took Wild Talent to enter the class. To become some kind of Psychic Fochlucan Lyrist, a manifester would have to take at least 4 levels of ranger (you have no spellcasting to advance otherwise, which means at best 8th level powers gained at level 20. I have a few other minor design issues with the Slayer (switch 9th and 10th level abilities, up BAB requirement to 6 just to shut people up) but nothing I feel is a balance problem.
Votan 06-10-05, 05:20 PM	I have a few other minor design issues with the Slayer (switch 9th and 10th level abilities, up BAB requirement to 6 just to shut people up) but nothing I feel is a balance problem. Increasing BAB criterion would be good for both the Wilder (Ranger 1/Wilder 6)and the Psychic Warrior (PsyWar 8) who really benefit from this class and make it a lot harder on the pure or nearly pure psion (Psion 12) to exploit (Ranger 1/Psion 10). I like this adaption.
player1 06-11-05, 07:43 AM	Agreed about higher BAB requirement (+6). As it stands Illithid Slayer is balanced if used with psiwarrior, which this PrC was really intended to. On the other hand, I would also add a prerequisite of being proficient with marital weapons, just to lower number of psion/slayer exploits.
DisposableHero_ 06-11-05, 11:43 AM	Agreed about higher BAB requirement (+6). As it stands Illithid Slayer is balanced if used with psiwarrior, which this PrC was really intended to. On the other hand, I would also add a prerequisite of being proficient with marital weapons, just to lower number of psion/slayer exploits. There was a thread tossing this around a while ago, I think the consensus there was to make the BA requirement +7, that way you couldn't actually get +16 BA/9th level powers with a psion/slayer. Also, adding martial weapon profs to this list won't do much as most of these builds are dipping one level in ranger to meet the base attack req sooner and pick up track for free.
the Horc 06-11-05, 12:27 PM	Personally, I would make it so that it would require 8 ranks in a psi-warrior exclusive class skill, or make them take some extra psionic feat like Psionic Weapon, or other feat that a class with a lot of bonus feats can afford. Also add Heavy Armor Proficiency as a pre-req, just to screw those who tried to Ranger-dip.
Suldarr'essalar 06-11-05, 01:08 PM	I don't know if this is a good place to post this, but would it be overpowered if I would change the prereqs of elocator from: "ability to manifest 1st level powers" to "ability to manifest 1st level powers, or ability to shape mindblade", and allow elocator (and Slayer) classes to stack with soulknife levels (except for levels where those classes don't gain ML increase) for purpose of determing mindblade enhancement bonus, and the bonus to hit&damage? BTW: What does heavy armor have to do with slayer?
DisposableHero_ 06-11-05, 02:09 PM	I don't know if this is a good place to post this, but would it be overpowered if I would change the prereqs of elocator from: "ability to manifest 1st level powers" to "ability to manifest 1st level powers, or ability to shape mindblade", and allow elocator (and Slayer) classes to stack with soulknife levels (except for levels where those classes don't gain ML increase) for purpose of determing mindblade enhancement bonus, and the bonus to hit&damage? BTW: What does heavy armor have to do with slayer? I think allowing soul knives to qualify for those prestige classes and having them stack in the same way arcane classes stack for warlock eldritch blast is an awsome idea, and hardly overpowered. Frankly the soul knife needs all the help he can get, and the ability to go into manifester prestige classes and have them enhance his mind blade would be a great way to do that. As for heavy armor, it has nothing to do with the slayer, but adding it to the prereqs would "allegedly" make it harder for a psion to enter without eliminating the psychic warrior's ability to qualify. I don't think it would, it would just change the dip from ranger to fighter, they would have to take track, but they would get a bonus fighter feat to make up for it.
Suldarr'essalar 06-11-05, 02:24 PM	As for heavy armor, it has nothing to do with the slayer, but adding it to the prereqs would "allegedly" make it harder for a psion to enter without eliminating the psychic warrior's ability to qualify.Yes I know, but the prereqs should somehow reflect the practise one need to take a PrC. I'd suggest martial weapon proficiency and let say proficiency with at least two exotic weapons (in 3.0 slayer gain proficiency in all weapons including all exotic ones).
the Horc 06-11-05, 05:10 PM	Then I would recommend making Autohypnosis a pre-req and dropping Autohypnosis as a class skill from Wilder, all the while increasing BAB requirements for the Slayer. Autohypnosis seems something an Illithid Slayer might have to use, like to counter the mind-f***ing abilities of Illithids. But really, there should be more psionic feats that a character whose primary concern is his intelligence wouldn't be likely to have. How bout making Psionic Meditation, Psionic Weapon, and Autohypnosis 8 ranks Pre-reqs also? Would require higher than normal stats from a class that traditionally dumps one of the stats. The Autohypnosis has been covered, while Psionic Weapon because it is a martial based prestige class, and Psionic Meditation for its applications as someone whose quick with his mind? PS: I only mentioned AP: Heavy because I was throwing random ideas on how to restrict the class from Psions and Wilders.
RadicalTaoist 06-11-05, 06:03 PM	Am I the only person who feels that the IS doesn't need such prereqs? It's a strong PrC, yes - but so are the Dervish and the Warmind, and a bunch of other PrCs. +6 BAB prereq is all it needs, and frankly that's fine. Is a Psion6/Elocator4/IS10 or a Psion8/Ranger2/IS10 or a Wilder/IS so bad?
Elgonn 06-11-05, 06:09 PM	Am I the only person who feels that the IS doesn't need such prereqs? No. Personally all I do to the class is remove ALL profs. Then if they really want them they'll have to drop a ML.
DisposableHero_ 06-11-05, 06:12 PM	Am I the only person who feels that the IS doesn't need such prereqs? It's a strong PrC, yes - but so are the Dervish and the Warmind, and a bunch of other PrCs. +6 BAB prereq is all it needs, and frankly that's fine. Is a Psion6/Elocator4/IS10 or a Psion8/Ranger2/IS10 or a Wilder/IS so bad? Certainly not. I don't feel the Illithid Slayer, or the Slayer from the SRD are in any way as bad as people seem to think. But they are pushing the line of where too good is, so its worth discussing for people who think they are that bad.
RadicalTaoist 06-11-05, 09:08 PM	No. Personally all I do to the class is remove ALL profs. Then if they really want them they'll have to drop a ML. LOL, I didn't even know it gave proficiencies. Yeah, removing that's a good idea.
Votan 06-11-05, 10:44 PM	No. Personally all I do to the class is remove ALL profs. Then if they really want them they'll have to drop a ML. The most logical way into the class for a wilder involves a level of ranger anyway so no big deal. A psychic warrior already has them. Psions won't be as likely to wander into this class with a +6 BAB requirement. At this point we are way before the "it's too good threshold" and standing strictly in "competent PrC territory".
Elgonn 06-11-05, 11:39 PM	Psions won't be as likely to wander into this class with a +6 BAB requirement. Except it only has a +4 BAB requirement.
Votan 06-12-05, 02:21 AM	Except it only has a +4 BAB requirement. My apologies. The sentance above should be preceded by: "If you think theat the Slayer is overpowered, increasing the BAB to +6 will have the following consequences on entering the class:" Ranger/Wilders can still do it easily Psychic Warriors are also able to enter easily Pure Psions will only be able to enter at high levels and it's a much more difficult thing to really pull off. Other balancing factors, besides this, would likely do more harm than good.
Red_Decker 06-12-05, 02:43 AM	Since we're back on the topic of slayers. One such slayer build that was brought to our attention was about how the psion/slayer could own in combat with ease. Many will remember that it had extensive use of the precognition powers to boost both saves and AC. Well, there is a feat that is fairly accessable called Neraph's Charge. For those that don't know it. It basically allows matrix style bullet time movement. Your character knows how to look like he's not moving when he really is. Once per combat per opponent you can make a charge that denies Dex to AC. This also denies those save/ac increases by defensive precognition. A monk using this feat could make the psion/Slayer have an incredibly bad day. Hitting him every round with a stunning attack with a save in the high 20's when he's got around a +3 fort save. Basically what I'm saying is, for every perceived Achillies they each have a heel. My monks have to get very creative when fighting fighters otherwise they are done. Wizards need a few blockers to ensure their survival. Psions need to have discipline and patience otherwise they turn into a commoner with a crossbow. Taking a single feat can spell doom for the psi-slayer. You get the idea. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v353/lady1raven/meepo/Meepo_02.gif
Elgonn 06-12-05, 03:35 PM	Other balancing factors, besides this, would likely do more harm than good. This is where I disagree. I think it is much much easier to just remove the granted proficiencies and keep every else exactly how it is done. Increasing the BAB needed just level inflates the class. It would be like adding "survival 13 ranks". It doesn't "fix" your issues with the class it just places the PrC higher out of reach to where you think it does less harm.
Udnamtam 06-13-05, 12:39 AM	if you *really* dont want abuse of the IS class, then dont give the player the opportunity to fight the Illithid until you feel its appropriate
TheDarkestOfAngels 06-13-05, 12:56 AM	if you *really* dont want abuse of the IS class, then dont give the player the opportunity to fight the Illithid until you feel its appropriate Of course that is part of the balance of the class. One highly campaign/DM dependant variable. If that isn't enough, you could just give it the "full martial/armor/shield proficiency" requirement - just like what the Eldritch Knight has without further fiddling. That way, a psion could still take the PrC and all of the levels in it, but would still have to multiclass with a frontline meleeist. Just like the eldritch Knight. That's what I would do, but I don't care either which way. All I know is that if the PC wants to fight illithids, I'll let him. All he has to do is spend weeks or months searching the underdark and hopefully won't be outnumbered or find himself outnumbered against a group of illithids that already know of his presence. This is assuming that the PC actively searches for the illithid and has enough in-game time to search for one. But that doesn't appear to be enough deterrance for some people, I guess. But that's ok. I guess I'm just a little more sadistic a DM than others. (I should write a paper for Redgar's Repository called "Fun with Illithids and other hyper-intelligent beings." That would amuse my palate. :D)
GlitterBoy 06-15-05, 04:02 PM	Very good read.
4-armed kobold 06-15-05, 07:40 PM	Hmm, I wonder. Which will come first - that the myth that psionics (XPH) is overpowered or that WotC will now realize that psionics can be core? :rolleyes:
cvazi 06-28-05, 10:19 AM	Well, Thanks to Complete Adventurer, arcane/divine spellcasters can now do something else that used to be the domain of psions-concentrating on a power and simulcasting. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=454560
Thanatos-Omega 06-29-05, 12:28 PM	Tch, I didn't even start playing this till I found the XPH. I'n both my teams the high level group i play in and the one I DM for I spread Psionics into anything, cause it's diffgerent ya know, people think of arcane and devine but lots of times i have gotten kids and guys to join and start just by letting em look at the XPH. and generally most didn't even say a word bout this whole myth, wich I was very glad about since I have had very spirited discussions with folks bout this much like we have here :mage:
De Batavier 08-18-05, 08:42 AM	Seeing that the old thread is being used again, i thought i should give this one a :bump: :cool:
DisposableHero_ 08-18-05, 09:15 AM	Sir Elton, this is cross posted from the original myth thread, I have to propose a change to one of the myths: Myth 25: Synchronicity is overpowered Answer: The wording of Synchronicity is actually the problem with this power. Does it grant an extra standard action? By the way it specifies move action + standard action, I'm inclined to say no, and that would be the way to keep it balanced. The overpowered view comes from those who feel that this grants them their normal allotment of moves in a round plus an extra standard action, which the power description does not state is gained. Now, were this power Contingency-ed or Quickened, you would essentially have your first round of full actions (minus your swift) and your second round of actions where you can take the standard anytime you want. This sounds better than it is, since the power never states you get an extra standard action. While this does allow you to change your place on the initiative count based on need, it does not, nor should be thought to, grant you an extra standard action. Even using Anticipatory Strike does not grant an extra standard action. The rules of readying an action, which this power does, clearly state that once you take your action, you have essentially used a new turn's standard action and your initiative count changes. A number of things: 1) You've got Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike backwords. Anticipatory strike borrows your next round of actions. It can be used to take two full rounds in one round (minus the swift of one round) but you must use it after you take your normal actions and this removes your ability to act in the following round. 2) Synchronicity doesn't grant any actions on its own, but grants them if you quicken or twin it, twinning being the real problem. 3) It needs to be mentioned that neither of these powers are in the XPH, and one off powers from splatbooks that cross the line don't make a system broken. Last but not least, though I have tried to defend these powers for a long long time, and I think anticipatory strike is pretty well fine as is, synchronicity is broken. shamelessly (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6648140) unquestionably (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=484859) irrevocably (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7002368) unforgivably (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=457351) broken
Tempest Stormwind 08-18-05, 09:26 AM	I've added a simple houserule after your nova threads, by the way -- "Synchronicity cannot be affected by metapsionics." I'm pretty sure it was written without considering them. Besides, no one complained.
DisposableHero_ 08-18-05, 09:31 AM	I've added a simple houserule after your nova threads, by the way -- "Synchronicity cannot be affected by metapsionics." I'm pretty sure it was written without considering them. Besides, no one complained. yeah that would about cover it. You'd have to use some silly overlapping affinity field + share power psicrystal nonsense to leverage any actions out of it then :D
Sir Elton 08-18-05, 04:16 PM	Sir Elton, this is cross posted from the original myth thread, I have to propose a change to one of the myths: A number of things: 1) You've got Synchronicity and Anticipatory Strike backwords. Anticipatory strike borrows your next round of actions. It can be used to take two full rounds in one round (minus the swift of one round) but you must use it after you take your normal actions and this removes your ability to act in the following round. 2) Synchronicity doesn't grant any actions on its own, but grants them if you quicken or twin it, twinning being the real problem. 3) It needs to be mentioned that neither of these powers are in the XPH, and one off powers from splatbooks that cross the line don't make a system broken. Last but not least, though I have tried to defend these powers for a long long time, and I think anticipatory strike is pretty well fine as is, synchronicity is broken. shamelessly (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6648140) unquestionably (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=484859) irrevocably (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6996594&postcount=9) unforgivably (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=457351) broken Wow. Thanks. I'll get it fixed. :)
RadicalTaoist 08-18-05, 04:39 PM	yeah that would about cover it. You'd have to use some silly overlapping affinity field + share power psicrystal nonsense to leverage any actions out of it then :D Could you use some Quicken/Twin/Delay Power and psicrystal affinity field silliness to share practically unlimited (limited only by your pp mind you) Synchronicities with your party?
Thanosquest 09-13-05, 03:46 PM	I'm a new D&D player. Started about two month ago. Party members have come and go but one of the ones that stayed so far is an Elan. I've been reading things from both sides but I wanted to add my perspective from playing with a Psion for the last two months. I admit, the first couple of meetings it was quite interesting to see all the different powers that the Elan had. Watching a guy with 30 HP go tearing into a group of monsters and going head to head with the tanks. At first I thought he was a powered up spell caster. After a couple of weeks of this though it started to get quite boring. In our 4 hour meetings we have approx two to three encounters. One usually is a room full of monsters (World's Largest Dungeon). I'm talking 10 to 15 beasts vs a party of 6. No problem. We usually just sit back in the hallway and watch the Elan go tearing into the room and killing everything in it. At first I used to try to support with cover fire, and spells, but I've since given up and just ready action, ready action, ready action, round after round after round. The Elan doesn't need healing most of the time because he can instantly reduce the damage he takes, if he takes any at all. He has 30+ AC with his buffs that last for something like 6 hours. So most of the stuff at our level (level 6 party) doesn't even touch him. Oh and if they do, he can usually turn on Energy Retort for a mere 5 points out of 40 that lasts for the entire encounter, dealing anything that actually hits him, once per round, 4d6. He also uses his Energy Burst from the center of the room, boosting with a few additional power points of course to get the extra d6's, to clear out the entire room. Enemy or party members in the way? No problem, just run up the wall and go behind them, leaving the party to fend for themselves. I mean balanced or not, I still have a party of 6 where 5 of us just sit in the hall doing nothing for an hour. One or two brave ones might venture into the room while the Elan is slaying thigs but the last guy that did that was invisible and was disintegrated with an Energy Burst upon stepping into the room. I think it's either time to switch gaming groups or ask the guy to retire his character. I mean why waste my time sitting around in hallways? What would you guys do if you were in my shoes?
Scion of Coldshard 09-13-05, 04:04 PM	Considering just how many pp this would take I'd have to say that he might be cheating. Between ignoring the pp cap and giving himself about 10x as many pp as he should actually have and ignoring the amount of actions he gets in a turn (talking about the swift actions that he would need to be making several times a turn to keep thatup) of course he would be powerful ;) What level is he? with 30 hp I'd guess around level 7, which gives him a total pp pool of 46+bonus. Definately not enough to keep himself alive in such a situation.. especially if he tries to use the elans DR at all.
Nephlite 09-13-05, 04:07 PM	I'm a new D&D player. Started about two month ago. Party members have come and go but one of the ones that stayed so far is an Elan. I've been reading things from both sides but I wanted to add my perspective from playing with a Psion for the last two months. I admit, the first couple of meetings it was quite interesting to see all the different powers that the Elan had. Watching a guy with 30 HP go tearing into a group of monsters and going head to head with the tanks. At first I thought he was a powered up spell caster. What level was he? Level 6: Hmm, 1d4 + con (maybe 3 mod) averages almost 5. 6 times that is 30. Anyway,tell us more about his levels. What type of Psion? Are you sure he wasn't a Psi-warrior? What weapon did he use? Did he wear no armor? Inertial armor/mage armor stuff? After a couple of weeks of this though it started to get quite boring. In our 4 hour meetings we have approx two to three encounters. One usually is a room full of monsters (World's Largest Dungeon). I'm talking 10 to 15 beasts vs a party of 6. No problem. We usually just sit back in the hallway and watch the Elan go tearing into the room and killing everything in it. At first I used to try to support with cover fire, and spells, but I've since given up and just ready action, ready action, ready action, round after round after round. Sheesh, what does he use to fight with? If he a caster with damage dealing powers? Is he a buffer and attacks after buffs? The Elan doesn't need healing most of the time because he can instantly reduce the damage he takes, if he takes any at all. He has 30+ AC with his buffs that last for something like 6 hours. So most of the stuff at our level (level 6 party) doesn't even touch him. Oh and if they do, he can usually turn on Energy Retort for a mere 5 points out of 40 that lasts for the entire encounter, dealing anything that actually hits him, once per round, 4d6. He also uses his Energy Burst from the center of the room, boosting with a few additional power points of course to get the extra d6's, to clear out the entire room. Enemy or party members in the way? No problem, just run up the wall and go behind them, leaving the party to fend for themselves. One small error: You can only use his ability 1/round. So he would only block damage against one attack every round. 30? Base 10 + Dex I'll guess 16(+3) + Inertial armor (level 6, so augmented 4 times:+6 instead of +4 base=19 AC. What else does he use to boost AC? Inertial armor is only buff that lasts 1/level hours. I mean balanced or not, I still have a party of 6 where 5 of us just sit in the hall doing nothing for an hour. One or two brave ones might venture into the room while the Elan is slaying thigs but the last guy that did that was invisible and was disintegrated with an Energy Burst upon stepping into the room. I think it's either time to switch gaming groups or ask the guy to retire his character. I mean why waste my time sitting around in hallways? What would you guys do if you were in my shoes? Only best thing I must make sure: You can't spend more PP than you manifestor level! This doesn't apply to Resilence, but than again it is 1/round. Energy Burst at level 6 deals at most 6d6 +6. Also is dangerous and can hurt you guys. If he is only level 6, he can't augment beyond 1 point. Energy retort: Only helpful if you get hit.
Sir Elton 09-13-05, 06:43 PM	Who was the GM? Did he read and understand the rules? :)
Thanosquest 09-13-05, 07:04 PM	Ok, I'll try my best to answer your questions given what I gathered so far. Don't shoot me if I make a mistake. What level was he? Level 6: Hmm, 1d4 + con (maybe 3 mod) averages almost 5. 6 times that is 30. Anyway,tell us more about his levels. What type of Psion? Are you sure he wasn't a Psi-warrior? What weapon did he use? Did he wear no armor? Inertial armor/mage armor stuff? If I remember correctly, he just turned 7th level two meetings ago. I'm not certain about the armor, but he does use buffs that last for 7 hours. I know it's 30 or more AC because our GM has to role crits to even touch him using Barghests (Bite +9). I think he's a Psion Sould Knife because I seen him use Entangling Ectoplasm, Concusion Blast, Swarm of Crystals, Energy Retort. All Psion abilities right? His weapon is a Soul Knife thing. Sheesh, what does he use to fight with? If he a caster with damage dealing powers? Is he a buffer and attacks after buffs? One small error: You can only use his ability 1/round. So he would only block damage against one attack every round. 30? Base 10 + Dex I'll guess 16(+3) + Inertial armor (level 6, so augmented 4 times:+6 instead of +4 base=19 AC. What else does he use to boost AC? Inertial armor is only buff that lasts 1/level hours. I can check on particulars but the DM supposedly audited his stuff after his first couple of weeks with the party. He does buff then attacks after buffs but because his buffs last so long he usualy only buffs the first encounter and then can keep it up for three or more encounters. He is stronger than our half-dragon tank and with only 30 or so hp's. True about the ability 1/round but it is rare that a Barghest even touches him once a round. I'll be sure to bring it up next time he uses his power.
player1 09-13-05, 07:08 PM	I mean balanced or not, I still have a party of 6 where 5 of us just sit in the hall doing nothing for an hour. One or two brave ones might venture into the room while the Elan is slaying thigs but the last guy that did that was invisible and was disintegrated with an Energy Burst upon stepping into the room. I think it's either time to switch gaming groups or ask the guy to retire his character. I mean why waste my time sitting around in hallways? What would you guys do if you were in my shoes? Just let him die. Going all alone with energy burst could seem like a good tacitc with alone player, but in group, it just means in case it goes bad, he would have no help since nobody wants to go near "explosive device". Personally, I think something is wrong if enemies just go and attack him. I mean, he is functioning like tank, not blaster, and in combat tanks should be avoided and other characters should be attacked. That would at least, give him a choice to either be total bastard and use energy burst and injure whole party (when atacked by monsters instead of him), or force him to use something else then burst and help a party.
Thanosquest 09-13-05, 08:01 PM	Considering just how many pp this would take I'd have to say that he might be cheating. Between ignoring the pp cap and giving himself about 10x as many pp as he should actually have and ignoring the amount of actions he gets in a turn (talking about the swift actions that he would need to be making several times a turn to keep thatup) of course he would be powerful ;) What level is he? with 30 hp I'd guess around level 7, which gives him a total pp pool of 46+bonus. Definately not enough to keep himself alive in such a situation.. especially if he tries to use the elans DR at all. Could you please elaborate more? I'm trying my best to understand this stuff but I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with how combat works and magic too. From my understanding of Psionics they have extra actions such as Swift and Immediate? Already that's an advantage to a cleric heal spells because I would have to wait my turn to heal someone while the Psionic can use an immediate action to do so right? Ok, so anyway. His powers only cost 5pp to do so why wouldn't he be able to do all that with around 15 or so pp? Energy Retort (5pp for 7 rounds) Energy Blast (5pp for 5d6's to every creature in the area and type chosen on the fly AND 1d6 for each additional 1pp) Inertial Armour (1pp for +4 for 7 hours and can be upped to +7 if using 7pp) I don't know how he gets Wall Walker but it's only 3pp for 7mins. At 45pp like you said he should be good for 2 hard encounters. If we can fit 1 major encounter in a 4 hour game, then I should be able to get involved once every other gaming session. I don't know about you but I hate sitting around for 8 hours just to play for 1 hour. Any feedback is appreciated cause I'm about to give up after two months of this.
Thanosquest 09-13-05, 08:07 PM	Considering just how many pp this would take I'd have to say that he might be cheating. Between ignoring the pp cap and giving himself about 10x as many pp as he should actually have and ignoring the amount of actions he gets in a turn (talking about the swift actions that he would need to be making several times a turn to keep thatup) of course he would be powerful ;) What level is he? with 30 hp I'd guess around level 7, which gives him a total pp pool of 46+bonus. Definately not enough to keep himself alive in such a situation.. especially if he tries to use the elans DR at all. Oh, and I forgot to mention, he can create his weapon as a free action, his crystal sees invisible creatures for free (no pp), he can see through walls for 5pp, he can communicate with ANY creature through his crystal of any language for free. Actually we don't need a spell caster because this guy can do it all. :)
Vloorshad 09-13-05, 10:22 PM	Oh, and I forgot to mention, he can create his weapon as a free action, his crystal sees invisible creatures for free (no pp), he can see through walls for 5pp, he can communicate with ANY creature through his crystal of any language for free. Actually we don't need a spell caster because this guy can do it all. :) Dear lord, you need to get your hands on this guy's character sheet and post what he has on it ASAP. From the sounds of it, something is very wrong with this guy's character, and it's not Psionics.
Thanosquest 09-13-05, 10:33 PM	Dear lord, you need to get your hands on this guy's character sheet and post what he has on it ASAP. From the sounds of it, something is very wrong with this guy's character, and it's not Psionics. Ok, I'll see if he let's me audit his character. I won't see him till next week though.
Sir Elton 09-14-05, 08:28 AM	Yeah, we need to examine whats going on here. :)
Scion of Coldshard 09-14-05, 11:38 AM	Could you please elaborate more? I'm trying my best to understand this stuff but I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with how combat works and magic too. From my understanding of Psionics they have extra actions such as Swift and Immediate? Already that's an advantage to a cleric heal spells because I would have to wait my turn to heal someone while the Psionic can use an immediate action to do so right? Everyone has swift and immediate actions, but the psion has more of them as they were a relatively new way of looking at the way timing works. Sorry if everything is overwhelming :( I know how that goes, especially at the beginning. Stick around here for awhile and we'll get you fixed up ;) Ok, so anyway. His powers only cost 5pp to do so why wouldn't he be able to do all that with around 15 or so pp? Energy Retort (5pp for 7 rounds) Energy Blast (5pp for 5d6's to every creature in the area and type chosen on the fly AND 1d6 for each additional 1pp) Inertial Armour (1pp for +4 for 7 hours and can be upped to +7 if using 7pp) I don't know how he gets Wall Walker but it's only 3pp for 7mins. First off, he is an elan so everytime he wants to absorb some damage that is 1pp/2 damage. If he gets hit for 10 there goes his swift action for the round and 5pp. Next, if he has an AC 30 or higher he'll be needing a 'lot' more buffs. If it is true that he is only useing 1hour/level buffs for ac then that means he is putting 20+pp into inertial armor alone (which is against the rules for his character). Even if that isnt the case then he is putting up several buffing powers. Inertial armor for 7pp (+7 armor bonus, 1hour/level), force screen 5pp (+5 shield bonus, 1min/level), possibly thicken skin 7pp (+3 enhancement bonus to armor, 10min/level), possibly defensive precognition 7pp (+3 insight bonus to ac and saves, 1min/level) Those with a 14 or higher dex will get him into the 30 range. Of course it takes about 3 rounds before combat and 26 pp and at least half will be gone before the next combat and this is only for a good defense and no offense at all. If he then also puts up energy retort (5pp) and does an energy blast to try to soften guys up (7pp) and uses his elans ability to absorb a hit (lots of pp) then he wont even be lasting for 'one' battle given that his offensive ability in melee combat is pretty close to nil. At 45pp like you said he should be good for 2 hard encounters. If we can fit 1 major encounter in a 4 hour game, then I should be able to get involved once every other gaming session. I don't know about you but I hate sitting around for 8 hours just to play for 1 hour. Any feedback is appreciated cause I'm about to give up after two months of this. If they are two encounters right in a row, with no delay time between them, and the psion has lots of time to prep up, and none of the opponents use tactics which can bypass a high, nontouch AC (grapple anyone? trip?) and the psion somehow rolls really well to even be able to do anything useful in melee.. then sure, it could seem powerful. But then any caster could do the same thing in that situation.. it is simply favoring the pc so heavily that most anyone could come out on top of that scenario ;) Of course though, if the monsters can use tactics and/or there is a time delay of some sort (searching for traps maybe?) and/or one cannot get unlimited time to prebuff (maybe you dont know if there are any enemies nearby, maybe there are but you are trying to be quiet, who knows?) then the situation becomes much more problematic for the caster type. Do you guys get to sleep after every battle? Oh, and I forgot to mention, he can create his weapon as a free action, his crystal sees invisible creatures for free (no pp), he can see through walls for 5pp, he can communicate with ANY creature through his crystal of any language for free. Actually we don't need a spell caster because this guy can do it all. So he is a multiclassed character? We are looking at even 'less' pp available. Unless of course you are in a gestalt game. Also, he appears to either be misunderstanding some of the abilities that a psicrystal has or cheating. The psicrystal entry says specifically that it cannot see invisible. It sees just like a sighted person except that darkness is irrelevant. See through walls? Sounds like remote viewing, but that is a fourth level, seer only power. Of course it can be a way of communicating with a creature with a language.. it is like playing telephone, you tell the crystal something, it tells the guy.. then he tells the crystal something and he tells you.. better make sure the crystals personality is one that he will tell things accurately;)
Nephlite 09-14-05, 12:15 PM	Also, he appears to either be misunderstanding some of the abilities that a psicrystal has or cheating. The psicrystal entry says specifically that it cannot see invisible. It sees just like a sighted person except that darkness is irrelevant. See through walls? Sounds like remote viewing, but that is a fourth level, seer only power. Of course it can be a way of communicating with a creature with a language.. it is like playing telephone, you tell the crystal something, it tells the guy.. then he tells the crystal something and he tells you.. better make sure the crystals personality is one that he will tell things accurately;) Scion is right you can't see invisible: Sighted (Ex): Although it has no physical sensory organs, a psicrystal can telepathically sense its environment as well as a creature with normal vision and hearing. Darkness (even supernatural darkness) is irrelevant, as are areas of supernatural silence, though a psicrystal still can't discern invisible or ethereal beings. A psicrystal's sighted range is 40 feet. I think you player has mislead you.
Gilliard DeRosan 09-14-05, 12:32 PM	This whole situation sounds like one person has a copy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and no one else does (or no one else has really bothered to read it and crunch the info), and so that one person is taking advantage by not disclosing (or just not being aware himself) of the limitations and restrictions on such. Like, spending no more than your ML in PP on any given power. Like, one swift/immediate action per round. Like, not bothering to learn (or relate) that discipline list powers can only be chosen by Psions of that Discipline. I agree, in that this person's character sheet needs to be posted up here to be reviewed and analyzed by the experts (us) to find out just what this guy is doing wrong, so that we can correct the matter and keep other's opinions of Psionics from being tainted by this one guys bending of the rules (if in fact, there is a bending of the rules).
Scion of Coldshard 09-14-05, 12:46 PM	I just thought of something. Is this guy wearing armor 'and' counting a benefit from inertial armor? That would likely make the guys AC very high for a good portion of the day. Of course, that is against the rules in nearly every case (I can only think of one instance where it could stack) and so should be remedied immediately if so ;)
Nephlite 09-14-05, 01:09 PM	Like, not bothering to learn (or relate) that discipline list powers can only be chosen by Psions of that Discipline. I agree, in that this person's character sheet needs to be posted up here to be reviewed and analyzed by the experts (us) to find out just what this guy is doing wrong, so that we can correct the matter and keep other's opinions of Psionics from being tainted by this one guys bending of the rules (if in fact, there is a bending of the rules). Actually you could choose a power on a discipline list by Researching: Just costs 1 week per power level and 200 Xp per week. It isn't the best way because you are wasting exp, but one can as a Telepath choose Astral construct at level 1 (well after a few battles). But yeah this guy sounds like he either didn't know the rules enough or is a munchinkin (knows the rules and is cheating). I hope the former.
Thanosquest 09-14-05, 07:25 PM	You guys rock! I'll try to get a hand on his char sheet next meeting. If he doesn't let me I'll just ask him to retire his character straight out. Our DM has been playing for 25 years but I don't think he's been in a campaign with Psionics before so he's still catching up on it. He's a really smart guy though and will probably figure out the mechanics soon. To answer some questions: AC - What if he has 20 Dex? Wouldn't that give him a possible 30 AC after buffs? He also might have a ring of prot but I'm not sure. I don't think he's wearing armor. But I'll check that as well. Elan's ability - He usually doesn't need it with his 30 AC. Maybe once every other encounter. So it doesn't suck up too much of his pp. Offensive ability - His psyblade kicks butt so far. He usually hits on every turn. Plus with his boots of haste he can double hit if he needs to. Encounters - We do not rest between encounters. We usually go two to three encounters before getting rest. That's why I'm usually useless after the first two encounters, seeing as how I'm a Wiz. But the Psion keeps going. He even wants to continue after the rest of us are spent. If the monsters could actually get through his AC he would probably think differently, but the rest of us would probably be dead as well.
Sir Elton 09-14-05, 08:14 PM	Encounters - We do not rest between encounters. We usually go two to three encounters before getting rest. That's why I'm usually useless after the first two encounters, seeing as how I'm a Wiz. But the Psion keeps going. He even wants to continue after the rest of us are spent. If the monsters could actually get through his AC he would probably think differently, but the rest of us would probably be dead as well. Something's wrong. He keeps going when everyone else is spent. Something is definitely wrong with his character. He should be keeping track of his power points, fairly. :ahem: This is the time when somebody should buy your DM a copy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook and ask him to read it before the next session, so he can enforce how many Power Points the psion is actually spending. This guy's playing style with his psion is jacked.
Tealgorthian 09-14-05, 08:28 PM	Something's wrong. He keeps going when everyone else is spent. Something is definitely wrong with his character. He should be keeping track of his power points, fairly. :ahem: This is the time when somebody should buy your DM a copy of the Expanded Psionics Handbook and ask him to read it before the next session, so he can enforce how many Power Points the psion is actually spending. This guy's playing style with his psion is jacked. Not to mention if he has a psyblade (which I assume is a mindblade) he is a multiclass psion, and has fewer PPs.
Bacris 09-15-05, 12:26 AM	You guys rock! I'll try to get a hand on his char sheet next meeting. If he doesn't let me I'll just ask him to retire his character straight out. Our DM has been playing for 25 years but I don't think he's been in a campaign with Psionics before so he's still catching up on it. He's a really smart guy though and will probably figure out the mechanics soon. To answer some questions: AC - What if he has 20 Dex? Wouldn't that give him a possible 30 AC after buffs? He also might have a ring of prot but I'm not sure. I don't think he's wearing armor. But I'll check that as well. Elan's ability - He usually doesn't need it with his 30 AC. Maybe once every other encounter. So it doesn't suck up too much of his pp. Offensive ability - His psyblade kicks butt so far. He usually hits on every turn. Plus with his boots of haste he can double hit if he needs to. Encounters - We do not rest between encounters. We usually go two to three encounters before getting rest. That's why I'm usually useless after the first two encounters, seeing as how I'm a Wiz. But the Psion keeps going. He even wants to continue after the rest of us are spent. If the monsters could actually get through his AC he would probably think differently, but the rest of us would probably be dead as well. It sounds to me like he's not properly tabulating or keeping track of his power points. Further, if it's the soulknife's Mindblade, that means he's multiclass. Multiclass non-prestige class levels don't stack for Power Point progression - the two levels are considered independent and Soulknife doesn't get power point progression - only 2 upon entering the level. DEX 20 would mean his base AC is 15. That's still 15 AC points to make up. Inertial Armor bumps that up to 19. Psion 7 has probably around 62 pp with bonus pps and Elan bonus. 7pp for Inertial Armor is 1/9 of his pps. Inertial Armor lasts 7 hours total, so it's entirely possible to last the majority of the day depending on how far apart the encounters are. That would put his AC as 22. Ring of Protection +2 - would bump to 24. Where is he getting the other 6+? If he's wearing armor, it doesn't stack with Inertial Armor. That leaves him roughly 55 pps for 3 encounters. 18 pps per encounter. At max augmentation, that gives him 2 powers per encounter, or 3 at 5pp. I'd like to know how he's able to go all out that frequently given the very finite number of power points he has. Further, if he has 1 level of soulknife for the Mindblade, that bumps him down to around 50 power points, leaving him only 40ish for the day after Inertial Armor. I'd want to see his char sheet. Further, why the heck does a 7th level psion have Boots of Speed? Also remember that they're only usable for 10 rounds out of the entire day. I think you have a case of someone not reading or following the rules.
Thanosquest 09-15-05, 03:06 AM	Ok. Spoke with the DM. Here is what he told me so far from what he remembers. Overall - Overchannel Feat, Dual Class Psion (5lvls), SoulKnife (2lvls) AC - Force Screen 5pp - +5AC - Inertial Armor 5pp - +6AC - Possible Ring of Prot +1 or +2 - Animal Affinity 5pp - +4Dex Strength - 20 after Animal Affinity 3pp He's not sure how he's keeping up the Force Screen and Animal Affinity longer than 5 minutes. He didn't know about the Psycrystal not seeing invis, we researched Touchsight and found out that it does not see through walls. It sounds like he would be spent after 1 encounter! Especially since he dual classed and I think he only has around 30pp. So we are making progress thanks to you guys. :)
Vloorshad 09-15-05, 04:36 AM	Ok. Spoke with the DM. Here is what he told me so far from what he remembers. Overall - Overchannel Feat, Dual Class Psion (5lvls), SoulKnife (2lvls) AC - Force Screen 5pp - +5AC - Inertial Armor 5pp - +6AC - Possible Ring of Prot +1 or +2 - Animal Affinity 5pp - +4Dex Strength - 20 after Animal Affinity 3pp He's not sure how he's keeping up the Force Screen and Animal Affinity longer than 5 minutes. He didn't know about the Psycrystal not seeing invis, we researched Touchsight and found out that it does not see through walls. It sounds like he would be spent after 1 encounter! Especially since he dual classed and I think he only has around 30pp. So we are making progress thanks to you guys. :) Psionics gets enough of a bad rap with the rules in place, we don't need players like this totally screwing everyone over. I'm glad we could help you with your problem.
Votan 09-15-05, 09:29 AM	Ok. Spoke with the DM. Here is what he told me so far from what he remembers. Overall - Overchannel Feat, Dual Class Psion (5lvls), SoulKnife (2lvls) AC - Force Screen 5pp - +5AC - Inertial Armor 5pp - +6AC - Possible Ring of Prot +1 or +2 - Animal Affinity 5pp - +4Dex Strength - 20 after Animal Affinity 3pp He's not sure how he's keeping up the Force Screen and Animal Affinity longer than 5 minutes. He didn't know about the Psycrystal not seeing invis, we researched Touchsight and found out that it does not see through walls. It sounds like he would be spent after 1 encounter! Especially since he dual classed and I think he only has around 30pp. So we are making progress thanks to you guys. :) Going NOVA is a way to make a psion extremely powerful at the cost of being useless after one encounter. If you could go NOVA all day long the psion would be the best class in the game by far. This appears to be what he is pulling off. I've done it and then hated the useless feeling afterwards.
Rhonin the Big 09-15-05, 03:47 PM	All spellcasting/manifesting classes have their drawbacks as well as their strengths. Wizards have some of the best damage potential as well as a few good boost spells, but they can't wear armor because they suck with it. Clerics are the best at healing, boosting and otherwize putting the party back together but they have alignment restrictions that reduce their flexibility. I cant remember how many times my LG cleric was screwed with summon monster because he could only summon a few of the creatures on the list. Psions have great damage potential and are versatile in so many ways that wizards can never top, and what permanent restrictions do they face? They can wear armor without interference, be of any alignment, and manifest metapsionic powers without preparing them as such or take a fullround action to do so (assuming they have Psionic Meditation, and if you dont why dont you?) Individual cases of spells and powers do NOT, in my opinion, deem a class as overpowered. What determines whether a class is overpowered is what they pay for it. A High level psion with high int and a psycrystal has much fewer weaknesses than a high level sorcerer with high cha, even fewer than a high level wizard both with familiars. Even with all the bonus spells/day a wizard would have, once he casts fireball he forgets all about it. Psions not only "cast" without preparing, but Psion's powers cannot be counter-spelled and do not have components (which means he can manifest any power he wants while being grappled compared to the wizard who cant cast spells with somatic components while being grappled, and doesnt need to pay 50,000gp for any diamonds like clerics do). Not to mention psions can take a fullround or move action to quicken a power without preparing anything. Beats the **** out of sorcerers to me! The question for all of you is, why play anything else? I'm surprized there isnt a Psion in every campaign by now!
Scion of Coldshard 09-15-05, 04:20 PM	If you are going to compare cleric vs psion the cleric is ahead in so many ways it is ludicrious. A specialist wizard vs a psion (specialist without choice) the wizard has more total equivalent pp per day, the ability to wear certain types of armor without restriction, auto familiar, selection from a list of spells much, much larger than the psions list of choices of powers and the ability to have literally thousands of total spells known. So yes, each has their tradeoffs. But if we are coming down to who is more powerful overall the cleric is a clear winner.
RadicalTaoist 09-15-05, 04:41 PM	Psions have great damage potential and are versatile in so many ways that wizards can never top You may want to go back through the Myth threads. We did damage calculations. Wizard is only slightly behind per round, far ahead per day. They can wear armor without interference, be of any alignment, and manifest metapsionic powers without preparing them as such or take a fullround action to do so (assuming they have Psionic Meditation, and if you dont why dont you?) They have to take feats for the armor, mages can be of any alignment, and the full round action is a sorceror-jacking problem. Fix the Sorc, don't nerf the Psion. A High level psion with high int and a psycrystal has much fewer weaknesses than a high level sorcerer with high cha, even fewer than a high level wizard both with familiars. He has two important weaknesses. Meta restrictions through focus (less of a problem with Psicrystal containment, but still far behind when it comes to stuff like Spell Focus and Spell Penetration, for example) and running out of pp due to the need to augment in order to be effective. Other than that, he's just like a wizard or sorc, except more fun to play. Even with all the bonus spells/day a wizard would have, once he casts fireball he forgets all about it. This is the stupidity of the Vancian system. The fact that I still see a lot of people playing wizards, and playing them more powerfully than many psions, indicates something. Fix the wizard, don't nerf the psion. Psion's powers cannot be counter-spelled Incorrect. They can't counterspell each other's powers. You can counterspell a power with the Dispel Magic spell, just not the other way around. An interesting quirk of transparency. do not have components (which means he can manifest any power he wants while being grappled compared to the wizard who cant cast spells with somatic components while being grappled The components matter has been argued out before, check out the earlier pages on this and the older thread. Likewise, he still has to make the same Concentration check that the wizard does, and the Wizard has a number of spells (namely Dimension Door) without somatic components. doesnt need to pay 50,000gp for any diamonds like clerics do Because the psion pays an XP cost. Do you like paying XP costs? I, for one, do not. Not to mention psions can take a fullround or move action to quicken a power without preparing anything. Beats the **** out of sorcerers to me! I repeat, fix the sorceror, don't nerf the psion. The question for all of you is, why play anything else? I'm surprized there isnt a Psion in every campaign by now! Well, that is the question, isn't it? Tell me: Why play something besides the Psion? Why isn't there a Psion in every campaign? A hint: don't weigh the Psion's advantages so heavily against that of other classes in comparison. And you may want to go through these threads.
Thanosquest 09-15-05, 06:30 PM	In response to Radical Taoist. I guess from a player's perspective, the Psionic seems to be built as a self-dependent class. They don't need healers, they are their own tank, they don't need spell casters because they can buff themselves, they don't need to eat if they are an Elan, do they even need sleep? I think I heard that they only meditate for an hour and they are good to go. So basically why would they even need to adventure with other people? It makes the Psionic quite boring to play with IMHO. I can help the Barbarian by buffing him with strength or dex or giving him the ability to climb up walls or healing him. And it would behoove me to do so so that the Barbarian can keep the baddies off of me and help me in return. So I have something to offer the Barbarian and he has something to offer me. The Psionic on the other hand can run off into combat and buff himself (sometimes even better than I could do it, think Animal Affinity buffing two stats in one action) as he goes or heal himself or whatever. He doesn't need anyone else. But isn't that the whole point of adventuring? To find your place in the group and help each other out? Cover each other's weaknesses? When I play with the Psionic I feel like it's every man for himself.
Scion of Coldshard 09-15-05, 06:44 PM	If you feel that the healing power is any good (incredibly pp inefficient) or that animal affinity is any good (1min/level? gah ;/ enhancement bonus as well? wonderful, the stats I want buffed will likely already have an item on them anyway..) then there are already issues that are likely to be unresolveable ;)
Thanosquest 09-15-05, 07:18 PM	If you feel that the healing power is any good (incredibly pp inefficient) or that animal affinity is any good (1min/level? gah ;/ enhancement bonus as well? wonderful, the stats I want buffed will likely already have an item on them anyway..) then there are already issues that are likely to be unresolveable ;) That's true. Maybe I have to see a Scionic played correctly before I pass judgement on the class. :P
Bacris 09-15-05, 07:42 PM	The question for all of you is, why play anything else? I'm surprized there isnt a Psion in every campaign by now! Gate The Incantatrix The Arch Mage Save or Dies More damage per day potential Polymorph Any Object should I continue?
Scion of Coldshard 09-15-05, 07:50 PM	yes, you missed a huge one. Illusions. Those are simply incredible and extremely versitile and the psion gets none of it :(
Nephlite 09-15-05, 08:31 PM	In response to Radical Taoist. I guess from a player's perspective, the Psionic seems to be built as a self-dependent class. They don't need healers, they are their own tank, they don't need spell casters because they can buff themselves, they don't need to eat if they are an Elan, do they even need sleep? I think I heard that they only meditate for an hour and they are good to go. So basically why would they even need to adventure with other people? It makes the Psionic quite boring to play with IMHO. I can help the Barbarian by buffing him with strength or dex or giving him the ability to climb up walls or healing him. And it would behoove me to do so so that the Barbarian can keep the baddies off of me and help me in return. So I have something to offer the Barbarian and he has something to offer me. The Psionic on the other hand can run off into combat and buff himself (sometimes even better than I could do it, think Animal Affinity buffing two stats in one action) as he goes or heal himself or whatever. He doesn't need anyone else. But isn't that the whole point of adventuring? To find your place in the group and help each other out? Cover each other's weaknesses? When I play with the Psionic I feel like it's every man for himself. Every platyed a Red Mage in Final Fantasy 11? Psions are closer to them. They are great Enfeeblers: Level 1 Power: Decelereate cuts speed of 1 enemy in half. If you have a few archers, you can get many attacks before enemy gets too close. Lefel 2 power: Inflict Pain: reduces enemies hit by 2 if make save or 4 if they fail save. They aren't exactly buffers (they have some), but they are great enfeeblers.
Rusher 09-15-05, 09:41 PM	Just a side note since so much has beed covered on the Psion/Soulknife. Soulknifes can't materialize their weapons as a free action until 5th lvl. Sounds like this person was using a Psion7/Soulknife7 instead of a 5/2. Just a thought... Good luck :)
Egres 09-16-05, 04:38 AM	Just a side note since so much has beed covered on the Psion/Soulknife. Soulknifes can't materialize their weapons as a free action until 5th lvl. Sounds like this person was using a Psion7/Soulknife7 instead of a 5/2. Just a thought... Good luck :) Maybe he was using the Soulblade Warrior feat.
RadicalTaoist 09-16-05, 12:42 PM	In response to Radical Taoist. I guess from a player's perspective, the Psionic seems to be built as a self-dependent class. They don't need healers, they are their own tank, they don't need spell casters because they can buff themselves, they don't need to eat if they are an Elan, do they even need sleep? I think I heard that they only meditate for an hour and they are good to go. So basically why would they even need to adventure with other people? It makes the Psionic quite boring to play with IMHO. I can help the Barbarian by buffing him with strength or dex or giving him the ability to climb up walls or healing him. And it would behoove me to do so so that the Barbarian can keep the baddies off of me and help me in return. So I have something to offer the Barbarian and he has something to offer me. The Psionic on the other hand can run off into combat and buff himself (sometimes even better than I could do it, think Animal Affinity buffing two stats in one action) as he goes or heal himself or whatever. He doesn't need anyone else. But isn't that the whole point of adventuring? To find your place in the group and help each other out? Cover each other's weaknesses? When I play with the Psionic I feel like it's every man for himself. This is a double edged sword - with his pp pool, the Psion will run out very very fast if he tries to do everything by himself. He's better off saving pp and accepting help. It's also notable that the downside is that the Psion finds it harder to contribute to the party tactically, which he will need to do in order to conserve power points. Take the following example: Schism+Telekinetic Manuver+Co-Opt Concentration (you just manifested TM and handed the concentration off to your Schismed mind)+Brain Lock+Solicit Psicrystal (you just manifested BL and handed the concentration off to your psicrystal)+Control Flame. You're now running three concentration effects, a pretty standard concentration mini-nova that takes three to four rounds to set up. End result? One enemy with a low Will save is now drooling and immobile, another is being grappled by an invisible force, and a third is slowly burning to death. You're barely doing any damage at all, but this is great party support. I'd love to play in a party with this Psion. He's making my job a hell of a lot easier.
Rhonin the Big 09-16-05, 03:32 PM	I read about 80% of the myths discussed in the first part of this debate, and in my opinion none of them prove or disapprove that psions are overpowered. What would prove that psions are or arent overpowered is if somebody stated the trade-offs for the psions strengths. Having 400 power points a day and being forced to use them sparingly, having powers not accessible to you because of discipline, and being forced to make a DC20 concentration check (which at about level 14ish with high con you can make without rolling) to use many of your feats doesnt prove that you are or arent overpowered. What would is proving or disapproving that the overall cost of the class < the gain Sorcerer/wizard: You can blast opponents into oblivion with your memorized spells, force them to save or die, but you cant wear armor because you suck with it. Cleric/favored soul: You can put the party back together, give your allies a great advantage with your spells, but you cant cast spells opposed to your alignment because you dont believe in them. Psion: You can blast your opponents into oblivion, boost yourself and heal yourself a little bit, but you have a one-track mind and a limited use of strong powers. Now I dont HATE the psion for all of his advantages, thats actually the reason I like them. Vs an abjurer with great counter-spelling feats the Psion would own him because you cant ready an action to counter-spell a power. Sorcerer grappled vs Psion grappled I would rather be the psion, although both have to concentrate a sorcerer can only cast a spell to get him out of there (since most good offensive sorcerer spells do have somatic components) while a Psion, who doesnt have somatic components, can still blast the grappler off. Sorcerers in a Party vs Psions in a party, I'd rather adventure with a sorcerer. Sorcerers can cast more nukes a day then psions can manifest nukes a day, and if a psion has to manifest something to keep him and/or his party going ya get what ya pay for. Clerics/Favored souls have cure spells which can heal everybody in range, sorcerers/wizards have repair spells which are useful when they need to be used, but Psions have Body adjustment which has to be augmented and is a personal target. So personally I'd welcome a sorcerer into my adventuring party more than a Psion Psionic damage vs Sorcerer damage: Almost equal. A 20th level psion manifesting energy ray and augmenting all the way does as much damage as a 20th level sorcerer's polar ray. While the psion can easily choose his choice of energy, he's spending more on a low level power than it does to manifest an unaugmented 9th level power; whereas all a sorcerer loses is one 8th level spell, with a higher save dc but the same cold damage. It seems like a fair trade to me, extreme magic-versatility and damage comparable to a sorcerer for higher cost. So if a psion tries to outnuke a sorcerer or outboost a cleric he will lose, but what he's good at is doing things a sorcerer/cleric cant do. First example I could think of: I dont know of any spell more damaging to an opponents bad-ass mystique than ego-whip, augmented enough it could set the opponent up for a coup-de-grace (especially against Tempest and his uberERcharger!. Speaking of Psionics: Did anybody notice in the XPH they have psionic displacement written twice?
Tealgorthian 09-16-05, 03:50 PM	Vs an abjurer with great counter-spelling feats the Psion would own him because you cant ready an action to counter-spell a power. This is only true if you are not using Magic-Psionic Transparacy. Otherwise you can Counterspell a Power with Dispel Magic, just like you can a Spell. For the same reason that SR and PR are the samething with different names. Now, if you don't use M-PT, that's a different story, and a different can of worms.
DisposableHero_ 09-16-05, 05:15 PM	I read about 80% of the myths discussed in the first part of this debate, and in my opinion none of them prove or disapprove that psions are overpowered.They aren't meant to. They are meant to put a light on the myths that have arisen about psions and manifesters in general that are looked at by many without considering the downsides. Common ones include looking at nova type numbers and forgetting about stamina, going off about combination X Y or Z without considering how many feats/powers known/whatever are spent to produce them, and considering they might be in line with combinations for other casting classes and so on. If you've ready 80% of the myths in the first post, you've read 0.238% of this thread, and about 0.05% of the two myth threads put together. You've read a post, or most of one, but that hardly encompasses the discussion. A lot of what you said has been asked an answered already, have a look, its only 50 pages all put together :D Sorcerer/wizard: You can blast opponents into oblivion with your memorized spells, force them to save or die, but you cant wear armor because you suck with it. Cleric/favored soul: You can put the party back together, give your allies a great advantage with your spells, but you cant cast spells opposed to your alignment because you dont believe in them. Psion: You can blast your opponents into oblivion, boost yourself and heal yourself a little bit, but you have a one-track mind and a limited use of strong powers.Conceptually sure, but the question is, who is better at what, and what is more important during the run of a game. You can summarize strengths and weaknesses all you like. Having the most strengths doesn't make you stronger, having the most weaknesses doesn't make you weaker. I find the psion to be much weaker in many important areas for my play style than the caster types, and I find the casters more versatile even if only due to mass of material to draw from. Psionic damage vs Sorcerer damage: Almost equal. A 20th level psion manifesting energy ray and augmenting all the way does as much damage as a 20th level sorcerer's polar ray. While the psion can easily choose his choice of energy, he's spending more on a low level power than it does to manifest an unaugmented 9th level power; whereas all a sorcerer loses is one 8th level spell, with a higher save dc but the same cold damage.Impossible to tell. Damage in a round? Damage in a day? Damage with a single spell/power? Damage efficiency? Targeting/Type options for damage dealing? I would say an arcane caster is a clear winner in every catagory other than the damage in a round catagory. In that catagory, its really about who is willing to use the most cheeze. If you're talking the highest of the high end, than a sorcerer would win, because built right, both psions and sorcerers can expend their entire daily allotment of spells/powers in a single round. If you're talking in reasonable doses, then perhaps a psion, as nova attacks come a little easier for them (at least with synchronicity around). People who claim a psion can out damage a sorcerer in any other catagory of damage I listed there usually haven't considered metamagic (and usually have considered metapsionics IME) It seems like a fair trade to me, extreme magic-versatility and damage comparable to a sorcerer for higher cost. So if a psion tries to outnuke a sorcerer or outboost a cleric he will lose, but what he's good at is doing things a sorcerer/cleric cant do.Thats the size of it. But you could make a good case for arcane or divine casters in just about any catagory compared to a psion. Versatility for example, belongs to a psion once the game starts, but belongs to a sorcerer by a wide margin during character creation. Its all in the build, and there are a lot more blocks to build a sorcerer or wizard with than there are to build a psion with.
Bacris 09-16-05, 06:08 PM	There is no myth, you will note, that the Psion is better than the Wizard. Why? Ask anyone at the CO boards why and you'll get your answer. The wizard has better spells, better PrCs, and more options available than a Psion. A Psion, on the other hand, has flexibility in how to use his powers and is the effective be-all, end-all of one-shot wonders. You can burn out in 5 rounds and pull off some amazing tricks - but the other 23 hours, 59 minutes and 30 seconds of the day, you're useless.
Thramzorean 09-16-05, 10:22 PM	A Psion, on the other hand, has flexibility in how to use his powers and is the effective be-all, end-all of one-shot wonders. You can burn out in 5 rounds and pull off some amazing tricks - but the other 23 hours, 59 minutes and 30 seconds of the day, you're useless. Which will break some encounters/adventures planned by DMs for parties they are more accustomed to. But you should always add the caveat. A novice DM with an experienced druid player in the group is going to struggle, psionics is no different except that until they get a good grip on things both players and DMs tend to exacerbate the bad points. The main weakness with the nova ability of psionics is that they can be a pain in games and campaigns that are played without ever the intention of running multiple encounters per day, and this is a fair comment, you shouldn't have to get the old balance mallet out to have to beat one class back into line just because of campaign style x. However in the bigger picture you can always find exceptions and any class that will have specific advantages in different situations and game styles. Most complaints about psionics are because of specific instances that are aggravated examples, that people have stumbled into unaware, are duly shocked, and then get up on a soap box about. So energy missile made the WotC published adventure a stroll? Well, heck, adamantine armored 1st level warforged will do the same. Don't look at one or two specialized examples. 1st level warforged are no excuse to throw out your Eberron books and the same thing applies to the XPH.
DisposableHero_ 09-17-05, 05:37 PM	So energy missile made the WotC published adventure a stroll? Well, heck, adamantine armored 1st level warforged will do the same. Don't look at one or two specialized examples. 1st level warforged are no excuse to throw out your Eberron books and the same thing applies to the XPH.Quoted for emphasis. I recently ran a party through the eberron prefabs. The party had a warlock, and breezed through a lot of it because of him, as a lot of the enemies were heavy armor types, how have a low touch AC and use DR as a primary form of defense. Naturally, that caters to the strength of a warlock. The warlock isn't broken, but he's a lot better against adamantine body warfoged than a fighter with a long sword is.
Rhonin the Big 09-18-05, 02:01 AM	They aren't meant to. They are meant to put a light on the myths that have arisen about psions and manifesters in general that are looked at by many without considering the downsides. Common ones include looking at nova type numbers and forgetting about stamina, going off about combination X Y or Z without considering how many feats/powers known/whatever are spent to produce them, and considering they might be in line with combinations for other casting classes and so on. If you've ready 80% of the myths in the first post, you've read 0.238% of this thread, and about 0.05% of the two myth threads put together. You've read a post, or most of one, but that hardly encompasses the discussion. A lot of what you said has been asked an answered already, have a look, its only 50 pages all put together :D People who say **** like a 1st level power doing 20d10 damage is overpowered is like saying Power Word Kill is overpowered because you can kill an entire army of 1st level kobolds by telling them off. People who complain about all these gigantic combinations of psionic feats and powers is like saying a widened maximized empowered fireball is overpowered; it probably is but you sacrifice 3 feats on 1 spell to do so. Conceptually sure, but the question is, who is better at what, and what is more important during the run of a game. You can summarize strengths and weaknesses all you like. Having the most strengths doesn't make you stronger, having the most weaknesses doesn't make you weaker. I find the psion to be much weaker in many important areas for my play style than the caster types, and I find the casters more versatile even if only due to mass of material to draw from. Actually it sorta does. The most strengths compared to a statistic equal pretty much means you're stronger. The most strengths and fewer drawbacks compared to a statistic equal DOES prove you are overpowered. Until somebody proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that psions have more strengths and fewer drawbacks than sorcerers, then the XPH is NOT overpowered. Thats the size of it. But you could make a good case for arcane or divine casters in just about any catagory compared to a psion. Versatility for example, belongs to a psion once the game starts, but belongs to a sorcerer by a wide margin during character creation. Its all in the build, and there are a lot more blocks to build a sorcerer or wizard with than there are to build a psion with. Well maybe because there's only 1 book for psionic stuff, only 2 PrC I actually like and not much psionic-specific material. Thats like saying apples are better than grapes because you see more apple trees than grape trees. Maybe once we see books like "Complete Psionics" and "Races of the Mind" we can finally put this debate/"My dad can beat your dad" argument to its grave.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-18-05, 08:27 AM	Well maybe because there's only 1 book for psionic stuff, only 2 PrC I actually like and not much psionic-specific material. Thats like saying apples are better than grapes because you see more apple trees than grape trees. Maybe once we see books like "Complete Psionics" and "Races of the Mind" we can finally put this debate/"My dad can beat your dad" argument to its grave. Honestly I think Complete psionics will likely undoubtably mark psionics as being broken. Right now, we have been comparing essentially "core" psionics versus normal classes with splatbooks. Already, there is flat out no reason to ever make a fighter type when you can make a psywarrior or psion/slayer. Aside from a few PrCs which are crazy broken, like the frenzied berserker, psionics blows the others away, and if you compare core fighter/barb versus core psionics, there is absolutely no contest at all. Psionics is right now IMO better than a core wizard/sorc as well as a core cleric. Even the core druid can probably be matched by a good psionics build. Granted there are various cheese exploits like simulacrums, planar binding, fabricate or gating for cheap wishes or infinite money and similar things that can put the core casters over the top, but I don't count those since it's assumed they'll be nerfed or disallowed by any reasonable DM. Already, psionics has all the little advantages. You can't really ever prevent a psionic from using powers by grappling him as you can a wizard. The psionic is immune to silence spells as well as a series of other common spell counters. He can cast in armor like a cleric but has firepower comparable to a wizard. You don't have to even worry about having a hand free which normally prevents a caster from wielding a two handed weapon or carrying a shield. All the little things are in psionics favor and while they may seem trivial individually add them up and combine them with psionics innate potency and things are crazy. Cleric buffs like spikes, divine metamagic, and other splatbook abilities are all that keeps the cleric and druid on top right now, and I suspect that will change when the complete psionic is published. The only real disadvantage psionics has is that it needs to get into the later levels before it truly blooms into super power. Due to the bonus accumulation/scaling power paradigm psionics uses, it's just not very useful at all at lower levels. In fact, at lower levels, anyone would pretty much rather have a wizard who can cast web and invisibility. The high level psionic character is truly a power monster and very little if anything compares to him.
Bacris 09-18-05, 08:39 AM	Already, there is flat out no reason to ever make a fighter type when you can make a psywarrior or psion/slayer. Purely opinion. PsyWar has Average BAB, fewer feats and worse HD. Psionics is right now IMO better than a core wizard/sorc as well as a core cleric. Even the core druid can probably be matched by a good psionics build. I call BS on this one. The Core Druid is disgusting in its abilities. The core Wizard may not suit the concept you like, but it is also stronger. Already, psionics has all the little advantages. You can't really ever prevent a psionic from using powers by grappling him as you can a wizard. The psionic is immune to silence spells as well as a series of other common spell counters. Oh no, he's immune to a 2nd level spell and a situation that no caster worth his salt should be in. He can cast in armor like a cleric but has firepower comparable to a wizard. He also has no proficiency in armor, so any ranged touch attacks take AC penalty. You don't have to even worry about having a hand free which normally prevents a caster from wielding a two handed weapon or carrying a shield. All the little things are in psionics favor and while they may seem trivial individually add them up and combine them with psionics innate potency and things are crazy. From personal game experience, I have to disagree. Cleric buffs like spikes, divine metamagic, and other splatbook abilities are all that keeps the cleric and druid on top right now, and I suspect that will change when the complete psionic is published. A core elven cleric archer is nasty. The only real disadvantage psionics has is that it needs to get into the later levels before it truly blooms into super power. Due to the bonus accumulation/scaling power paradigm psionics uses, it's just not very useful at all at lower levels. In fact, at lower levels, anyone would pretty much rather have a wizard who can cast web and invisibility. Oh, let's not take into account that most of the good powers are mind-affecting, so about 1/3 of the enemies are immune. Or that the save or dies are pretty weak compared to core save or die spells, or that as they progress, the damage output is less effective and doesn't scale. The high level psionic character is truly a power monster and very little if anything compares to him. Core Druid, Core Cleric and Core Specialist Wizard still beat the pants off the Psion. Simply because you want to write off Core-only combinations that you don't like does not make them less powerful - it means you choose flavor over power. A Core-only wildshaping druid or a Core-only Polymorph Any Object caster or a Core-only Elven Cleric archer could easily stand toe to toe with a Psion.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-18-05, 10:31 AM	Purely opinion. PsyWar has Average BAB, fewer feats and worse HD. Vigor is good enough to negate any HD problems. In fact you'll make even the toughest barbarian cry. Defensive Prescience puts your AC and saves to crazy levels, putting you on par with divine grace. Offensive Prescience makes up for your somewhat lower BaB, and coupled with stuff like lion's charge and deep impact (both of which are crazy powerful), you really are good enough to utterly beat out a core fighter. I call BS on this one. The Core Druid is disgusting in its abilities. The core Wizard may not suit the concept you like, but it is also stronger. They're comparable, but it really tends to at high levels get into a war of cheese as opposed to any reasonable discussion, so it's hard to say who is the strongest since both have crazy exploitable loopholes. He also has no proficiency in armor, so any ranged touch attacks take AC penalty. True, but a lot better than a wizard who can't wear armor at all. Lets not also forget the inertial armor power which gives you free super armor at high levels. It's like having your favorite wizard walking around in +6 full plate. A core elven cleric archer is nasty. Agreed, but still not as nasty as a buff based core psion/slayer or even psywarrior. Core cleric archers have to rely on quicken, not persistent spell, which means that they take a while to fully get buffed. With the errata to divine favor, cutting it down to +3/+3, the cleric archer is nowhere near the power it once had. Cleric archers have to waste actions to buff. Psionics just burn a temporal acceleration, buff up fully and don't miss a step doing it. The cleric archer doesn't truly come into his own until you factor in divine metamagic, persistent spell and a bunch of other noncore buffs. The core only buff based cleric isn't really something to be feared, at least not after the nerf to divine favor. The core cleric doesn't hold a candle to the buff whoring capability of a 3.5 psionic character. Oh, let's not take into account that most of the good powers are mind-affecting, so about 1/3 of the enemies are immune. Or that the save or dies are pretty weak compared to core save or die spells, or that as they progress, the damage output is less effective and doesn't scale. At high levels you can pretty much win just by using overchannel and energy stuns, since your DC is huge and you force the enemy to lose an action each round while damaging him. You also have crystal shard which beats any DR or SR. In addition, you've got a whole load of useful buffs should you desire to go into melee. Plus with timeless body you can become totally immune to damage. And if all else fails in a really tough fight, you can choose to go nova and pretty much automatically win. Simply because you want to write off Core-only combinations that you don't like does not make them less powerful - it means you choose flavor over power. A Core-only wildshaping druid or a Core-only Polymorph Any Object caster or a Core-only Elven Cleric archer could easily stand toe to toe with a Psion. There's no doubt that the core druid is broken, so honestly using one broken class to defend another as being balanced doesn't prove anything. The core cleric archer still pales in comparison to the psionic character in combat. While the cleric archer is still incredibly versatile due to healing, divination and other stuff, the psionic character is the undisputed master warrior. The cleric archer requires buffing rounds, or at the very least rounds in which he isn't fully buffed while he's casting quickened spells. Further, he has a very limited set of buffs compared to the vast amount available to the psion, many of which are swift action castable. The PaO caster is pretty much not even a class problem at all, but rather a crazy spell. But that's not even a big problem since there's nothing preventing the psionic character from using PaO from a ring of spell storing or something. I honestly wouldn't even get into the polymorph mechanics as far as balance discussions though. They're so crazy broken anyway. And besides, when polymorphed the psion inevitably wins out since he can retain the ability to manifest in forms which don't have hands or the ability to speak. And lets remember that these are but three classes out of many. Against anything that isn't one of these mentioned classes.... Barbarian, Fighter, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Rogue or Monk... all rendered totally useless and inferior. It doesn't matter that a class can nearly match a psion using the crazy polymorph mechanics and the druid (already viewed as broken) can do so as well. You have to look at the majority of classes, the majority that is totally blown away. Is there seriously any reason at all to play a fighter when you can play a psionic character? I mean psionic characters fight better than any fighter type. If you play in a game that allows psionics, you might as well just put a big red X through all the fighting classes, because they just became classes only a moron would take.
Bacris 09-18-05, 11:04 AM	Useless? Ok, we don't need skill monkeys / trap finders. It might come as a surprise that you can't just use an Astral Construct to set off every trap. A good DM would have some majorly bad side-effects for that tactic. Or trackers... Or bards... guess what? Unless you're playing pure hack and slash, bards are extremely useful. Even in pure hack and slash, they are useful Or clerics to resurrect / heal... unless you plan to only use Vigor / Body adjustment Yeah, we only need Psions :rolleyes: And that doesn't even take into account MDJ, Gate, PaO, Rope Trick, etc, etc, etc
Tempest Stormwind 09-18-05, 12:02 PM	Vigor is good enough to negate any HD problems. In fact you'll make even the toughest barbarian cry. Defensive Prescience puts your AC and saves to crazy levels, putting you on par with divine grace. Offensive Prescience makes up for your somewhat lower BaB, and coupled with stuff like lion's charge and deep impact (both of which are crazy powerful), you really are good enough to utterly beat out a core fighter. Psywars get piddly PP, and it's dependent on Wisdom (so the minimal psywar ability dependencies are wis, strength and con, in that order because you have nil for PP. Compare this to a fighter, strength and con). By the time you're high enough ML to burn PP on PLC and OP, you are beyond level 5 -- and at that point any fighter worth his salt will have PrCed. It is widely accepted -- BEFORE PSIONICS WERE OUT IN 3.5, BY THE WAY -- that the core fighter is underpowered after about level 5 or so, and maybe even before that... except as entry into complicated PrCs. By the way, Deep Impact is effective on one attack, once every other round, with the round in between spent drawing AoOs (and if combined with PLC, at a lower AC than normal, and held in place in the enemy's reach since you can't move after a charge). Meanwhile, a single wizard spell -- Wraithstrike -- applies the same thing to every attack, all the time, in a duration, without psionic focus issues, and is low enough levelled to be readily made into a continuous magic item. They're comparable, but it really tends to at high levels get into a war of cheese as opposed to any reasonable discussion, so it's hard to say who is the strongest since both have crazy exploitable loopholes. I hardly call Natural Spell a loophole, nor Polymorph Any Object or MDJ. Gate may as well be rewritten "VIOLATE any encounter of a CR equal to your level +3" if used to summon. These are not cheese loopholes, they're how the damn spell was written. The closest cheese you can get with psionics is Synchronicity, and -- in addition to being in a splatbook -- it's still debatable whether or not that power actually grants the extra actions we assume it does, and if it does, then it also relies on them stacking. This IS a loophole, and it is cheesy. Now, if the druid relied on Wild Shape Stacking to become godlike, I'd accept your argument. As it is, that's simply overkill. True, but a lot better than a wizard who can't wear armor at all. Lets not also forget the inertial armor power which gives you free super armor at high levels. It's like having your favorite wizard walking around in +6 full plate.1) He could indeed wear armor. Nothing stops him. There's a lot of spells without somatic components, you'll note. There was an article on the D&D website about this a while ago, with the author listing that he occasionally threw his wizard in full plate and fitted him in with soldiers, and had him cast support spells that lacked a somatic component to confuse everyone else. 2) I hardly call a metric boatload of PP "free". There's also Improved Mage Armor in Complete Arcane, which more DMs allow than psionics, oddly enough. Agreed, but still not as nasty as a buff based core psion/slayer or even psywarrior. Core cleric archers have to rely on quicken, not persistent spell, which means that they take a while to fully get buffed. With the errata to divine favor, cutting it down to +3/+3, the cleric archer is nowhere near the power it once had. Cleric archers have to waste actions to buff. Psionics just burn a temporal acceleration, buff up fully and don't miss a step doing it. 1) Caveat: "...not as nasty as a buff based core psion/slayer or even psywarrior" for one encounter per day. 2) Nowhere near the power it once had, and yet still is considered the strongest base class? (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20050916a) 3) They may not miss a step in this encounter, but they certainly miss a lot of PP, which will burn them more in the next encounter. I swear, AT, it's like you assume every psion only ever fights one battle a day (like a wizard with Rope Trick), or has a persistent Font of Power. Not even the CO gurus can pull that off. The cleric archer doesn't truly come into his own until you factor in divine metamagic, persistent spell and a bunch of other noncore buffs. The core only buff based cleric isn't really something to be feared, at least not after the nerf to divine favor. Isn't really something to be feared? (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20050916a) Ask anyone on the CO boards which base class (1-20) they would want to adventure with, regardless of their character type. Or, ask them which class they'd LEAST like to meet as a recurring villian. You will hear "cleric" or "druid". I guarantee that much. The core cleric doesn't hold a candle to the buff whoring capability of a 3.5 psionic character. For one encounter per day. Also, since the cleric needs fewer buffs by default than any psionic character (usually only one), he's less vulnerable to a Dispel Magic. The psion, on the other hand, not only burned this encounter's pp, but most of the rest of the day's too. It doesn't matter how spooky it is, since everyone falls to the same tricks. Remember Indiana Jones vs. the swordmaster Nazi? At high levels you can pretty much win just by using overchannel and energy stuns, since your DC is huge and you force the enemy to lose an action each round while damaging him. You also have crystal shard which beats any DR or SR. In addition, you've got a whole load of useful buffs should you desire to go into melee. Plus with timeless body you can become totally immune to damage. 1) You get damaged to boot, or you expend your psionic focus. There's also several ways to be immune to stunning, and -- get this -- at high levels direct damage is for chumps. And it's ENERGY direct damage, too. While you're busy burning precious PP and actions to try to stun/damage something that's likely immune or resistant, any core wizard or cleric will simply Save-Or-Die it, or perhaps No-Save-Or-Pain it (like Forcecage). Alternately, a mage could use an illusion to either win or bypass the encounter, at his leisure. 2) Crystal Shard, sadly, does not beat a Minor Globe of Invulnerability. And it also requires a touch attack. This makes it very effective against fighters (who have piles of HP, the thing that it tries to damage) or maybe clerics (if they didn't buff the nonarmor AC types, which is odd), but it will lose against any rogue (high touch AC) or mage (same thing, plus other effects like miss chances, Mirror Image, etc). It's also limited to CLOSE RANGE, which is not where any caster wishes to be. 3) They take actions, and PP, and they don't last long enough to warrant it. Unless you're an Egoist or burned a feat for Metamorphosis. And this is hardly limited to pisons, as mages get Polymorph at the same time, and they don't have to specialize or burn feats to do it. 4) FOR ONE ROUND. AND AN AMAZING QUANTITY OF PP OVER TIME. And it's a 9th level power. If we're breaking those out, what about Wish or Miracle? And if all else fails in a really tough fight, you can choose to go nova and pretty much automatically win. As we've said before, novas are NOT automatic wins, and they cripple you for the rest of the day. I give you that it could be effective, but it's not an instant win. There's no doubt that the core druid is broken, so honestly using one broken class to defend another as being balanced doesn't prove anything. We've used druid, cleric, and wizard. You have admitted that since the "nerfing" the core cleric isn't broken (despite it being thought of as STILL the strongest). The core cleric archer still pales in comparison to the psionic character in combat. While the cleric archer is still incredibly versatile due to healing, divination and other stuff, the psionic character is the undisputed master warrior. The cleric archer requires buffing rounds, or at the very least rounds in which he isn't fully buffed while he's casting quickened spells. Further, he has a very limited set of buffs compared to the vast amount available to the psion, many of which are swift action castable. 1) For one encounter per day, again. 2) Undisputed? Hardly. And you missed the cleric combat buffs, notably Divine Power -- which is a spell that makes fighter types all but worthless in a way that no psionic power ever could, unless the psion has infinite PP (which he does not) and infinite actions (which he does not, unless you exploit a loophole which may or may not exist and depends on a splatbook). 3) VAST AMOUNT? Reread your PHB cleric's spell list, pal. The psion has fewer. The PaO caster is pretty much not even a class problem at all, but rather a crazy spell. But that's not even a big problem since there's nothing preventing the psionic character from using PaO from a ring of spell storing or something. I honestly wouldn't even get into the polymorph mechanics as far as balance discussions though. They're so crazy broken anyway. And besides, when polymorphed the psion inevitably wins out since he can retain the ability to manifest in forms which don't have hands or the ability to speak.That argument could apply to ANY class, and any spellcaster. It's not like Shapechange, Gate, MDJ, or any other powerful spell is breaking the only class that gets it, since any class can get it out of a ring of spellstoring! Oh my god the HEALER is broken because it can MDJ out of a ring it pinched off the bard! (And you forget: Caster level. Particularily with PaO.) You just brushed an argument against your side under the carpet while trying to make it look like it wasn't important. I can see the bulge where you hid it. And lets remember that these are but three classes out of many. Against anything that isn't one of these mentioned classes.... Barbarian, Fighter, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Rogue or Monk... all rendered totally useless and inferior. I'm sorry, you have my psion confused with your cleric. If you actually tried playing one instead of talking about Dungeons and Daydreams, you'd have noticed by now that psions are as balanced as the warlock -- that is, balanced against the fighter types, with a slight curve above them at the end (which is how D&D handles casters -- initially weak, strong at the end -- except shallower with the psion). It doesn't matter that a class can nearly match a psion using the crazy polymorph mechanics and the druid (already viewed as broken) can do so as well. You have to look at the majority of classes, the majority that is totally blown away. This is in opposition to your earlier statements. Is there seriously any reason at all to play a fighter when you can play a psionic character? I mean psionic characters fight better than any fighter type. If you play in a game that allows psionics, you might as well just put a big red X through all the fighting classes, because they just became classes only a moron would take. Yes, especially at low levels (fighter here means the archetype, not necessarily the class). A fighter has less immediate need for buffing before he wades into combat. He can dish out decent damage reliably over time, and takes a lot of hits to take down (before save-or-dies come into play, but by then the casters rule the show anyway). It's his job to occupy the opponents while the mages use their actions on their spells -- so instead of wasting a round or three buffing, they can spend those actions directly on offense or battlefield control. Do not look at the classes, so much as the adventuring party as the singular organism here. If the fighter is doing his job, the enemies are paying attention to him as he's the immediate threat. Sort of like a feint, or the left hook right before the right uppercut. If there is no fighter, then the party loses a round to get up to combat speed (buffing), and as the game progresses that one round gets increasingly more deadly for the party. Archtyrant, do you ever play low level games? Or any game with a psion? Or, for that matter, do you play at all, or do you just show up on the psionics boards and troll?
DisposableHero_ 09-18-05, 12:36 PM	Vigor is good enough to negate any HD problems. In fact you'll make even the toughest barbarian cry.Absurd. Wasting standard actions to deliver small amounts of low duration temporary hit points. In any situation in which you want the hit points you're better off not wasting the standard action and instead either getting out of harms way, or neutralizing the opposition. Vigor is a terrible power, nigh useless unless you take several other deployment powers or feats and waste a hugh number of power points to make it half decent. Defensive Prescience puts your AC and saves to crazy levels, putting you on par with divine grace. Offensive Prescience makes up for your somewhat lower BaBAnd who is going to save you while you spend the time to buff up? Defensive prescience is +7 to AC at level 18, +8 with overchannel. At level 18 however, the combat could well be over in the two rounds you spend getting up to speed. and coupled with stuff like lion's charge and deep impact (both of which are crazy powerful), you really are good enough to utterly beat out a core fighter.Yeah, one fight per day, if you tip all the advantages in the PsyWars favor. But then, I could say that with almost every class in the game, and stuff as much hearsay, supposition, and guesswork into my analysis as you've put in yours. Furthermore, deep impact is far from crazy powerful. With the existance of feats like shock trooper and leap attack, I'd really like to see more out of a feat as high as a feat chain as deep impact is. They're comparable, but it really tends to at high levels get into a war of cheese as opposed to any reasonable discussion, so it's hard to say who is the strongest since both have crazy exploitable loopholes.I'm really sorry to hear that your high level games turn into either cheese wars or nerf fests, I know I wouldn't find that much fun at all, and I'm glad my games aren't like that, I feel very sorry for you. True, but a lot better than a wizard who can't wear armor at all. Lets not also forget the inertial armor power which gives you free super armor at high levels. It's like having your favorite wizard walking around in +6 full plate.Yeah, your favorite wizard being the one who can't use gate, forcecage, the bigby's spells, ultility summons, any illusion spell, meteor swarm, scorching ray, hold person, hold monster, divine power, divine favor, divine might, animal growth, can't cast shapechange without paying XP, the list goes on and on and on. Agreed, but still not as nasty as a buff based core psion/slayer or even psywarrior. Core cleric archers have to rely on quicken, not persistent spell, which means that they take a while to fully get buffed. With the errata to divine favor, cutting it down to +3/+3, the cleric archer is nowhere near the power it once had. Cleric archers have to waste actions to buff. Psionics just burn a temporal acceleration, buff up fully and don't miss a step doing it.You specifically have been told time and time again how impractical this is and how wrong it is. Here it is again for good measure. Using a temporal acceleration to rapidly deploy buff powers is a nova tactic and suffers from exactly the same problem that all nova tactics due, premature exhaustion of resources. If a DM can't cope in some way, then not only should they not play with psionics, they shouldn't play with clerics, wizards, sorcerers, or any prestige class that approximate their spellcasting, end of story. If you don't like it, go find a cold, dark, lonely room and cry about it. Thats the way it is, thats why they recommend making stamina matter in the DMG, thats why they warned you this would happen. Ban whatever you like in your games, but don't come here with factless tirades about soemthing you don't like. Want to make this point, post a build, cheesy as you like, and see if your guesswork holds up. If not, the phrase is and has always been, put up or shut up, got it? The cleric archer doesn't truly come into his own until you factor in divine metamagic, persistent spell and a bunch of other noncore buffs. The core only buff based cleric isn't really something to be feared, at least not after the nerf to divine favor.And? What percentage of actual games do you think play core only? That the cleric archer doesn't work well in just core games (I'd sooner blame a lack of zen archery than divine metamagic, but thats me) doesn't discount the myriad of advantages a cleric or druid has over a psion. The core cleric doesn't hold a candle to the buff whoring capability of a 3.5 psionic character.Prove it. At high levels you can pretty much win just by using overchannel and energy stuns, since your DC is huge and you force the enemy to lose an action each round while damaging him. You also have crystal shard which beats any DR or SR. In addition, you've got a whole load of useful buffs should you desire to go into melee. Plus with timeless body you can become totally immune to damage. And if all else fails in a really tough fight, you can choose to go nova and pretty much automatically win.So I guess you give all your psions free unlimited access to font of power do you? I don't see how they handle even a small workload doing things like this. If you think I'm wrong, post a build that proves you can. Go on, do it, 20 levels, 32 point buy, 190,000 XP, 760,000 GP, as much psionic splat material as you like (please exclude the use of synchronicity, most of us have conceeded that you can really amp up the cheese on it) There's no doubt that the core druid is broken, so honestly using one broken class to defend another as being balanced doesn't prove anything.And? Read the threads, we compare to wizards for the most part. The core cleric archer still pales in comparison to the psionic character in combat. While the cleric archer is still incredibly versatile due to healing, divination and other stuff, the psionic character is the undisputed master warrior. The cleric archer requires buffing rounds, or at the very least rounds in which he isn't fully buffed while he's casting quickened spells. Further, he has a very limited set of buffs compared to the vast amount available to the psion, many of which are swift action castable.Prove it. Using swift powers is the same as quicken spells, but you know, worse. Swift action powers take pretty universally 6 points to make swift, drastically reducing their effectiveness, and totally eliminating this option at low levels. A buffed cleric can easily match a buffed psionic character, both of them have access to dispelling, and the cleric is likely stronger unbuffed, due to armor profs, domain abilities, and a nastier selection of spells. The PaO caster is pretty much not even a class problem at all, but rather a crazy spell. But that's not even a big problem since there's nothing preventing the psionic character from using PaO from a ring of spell storing or something. I honestly wouldn't even get into the polymorph mechanics as far as balance discussions though. They're so crazy broken anyway. And besides, when polymorphed the psion inevitably wins out since he can retain the ability to manifest in forms which don't have hands or the ability to speak.So we're supposed to ignore large chunks from the PHB because you don't like them, and make our comparisons to psionics based on the weakest possible options in the core books? If you're going to do so much nerf work on magic, then do it to psionics for your game and leave us alone. Some of us think it works. Some of us have run numbers or played in games that lead us to believe it works. And lets remember that these are but three classes out of many. Against anything that isn't one of these mentioned classes.... Barbarian, Fighter, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, Rogue or Monk... all rendered totally useless and inferior.Your games of D&D must be sad sad affair sir. If you're so closed minded as to not see the value or redeeming qualities of these classes, then none of us should bother trying to have a discussion with you, becauses its clear you won't be convinced no matter what we say, and if your track record proves anything, you won't offer any proof to support your ideas either. Warrior types are stong because they can, get this, do some nasty stuff in combat without taking time to buff. A Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, or Ranger doesn't have to both asking his god for power, or manifesting a precognitive sense before he can start hacking it up with best best of them. Sorcerers have been compared extensively, and dispite how weak people seem to think they are, they compare pretty well to a psion if you ask me. If you want to talk to me about classes that aren't good direct comparisons, lets talk wilders and soul knives, and see how broken they are. It doesn't matter that a class can nearly match a psion using the crazy polymorph mechanics and the druid (already viewed as broken) can do so as well. You have to look at the majority of classes, the majority that is totally blown away. Is there seriously any reason at all to play a fighter when you can play a psionic character? I mean psionic characters fight better than any fighter type. If you play in a game that allows psionics, you might as well just put a big red X through all the fighting classes, because they just became classes only a moron would take.This is factless, unsupported opinion. Want me to take it seriously? Then Prove it Now, lets see if your argument melts under a demand for proof like it did last time. I predict dodging, a fallacious claim that the burden of proof lies with me, and more supposition, guesswork, hearsay, factless tirades, and generally huffing and puffing about psionics, completely devoid of proof. Your move AT. Edit: Wow Tempest, its been quite a while since you've weighed in on one of the myth threads.
Thramzorean 09-18-05, 01:08 PM	Quoted for emphasis. I recently ran a party through the eberron prefabs. The party had a warlock, and breezed through a lot of it because of him, as a lot of the enemies were heavy armor types, how have a low touch AC and use DR as a primary form of defense. Naturally, that caters to the strength of a warlock. The warlock isn't broken, but he's a lot better against adamantine body warfoged than a fighter with a long sword is. Heh, yes, I remember the difficulties the Mark of Heroes DMs were commenting on to find something to hit low level warforgeds without actually killing characters left right and center at the same time. But that's for discussion elsewhere... ;)
Votan 09-18-05, 01:20 PM	And who is going to save you while you spend the time to buff up? Defensive prescience is +7 to AC at level 18, +8 with overchannel. At level 18 however, the combat could well be over in the two rounds you spend getting up to speed. Too true. At level 18 a wizard could use a quickened teleport to appear in the middle of a party, cast wail of the banshee and then have a contingency dimension door or teleport to escape if he is attacked. That can be done in one round. At level 18 the Druid can shapechange. It seems highly unlikely that anything that you can do will be more potent at buffing than turning into the crazy forms available via that spell. The cleric can quicken buffs like Divine Power and Righteous Might with 8th and 9th level spells -- enabling him to buff up with quickened spells while trying out tactics like energy drain (which is murder on an unporotected psion). Even an 18th level figther could charge you using some crazy combination of feats to enhance his attacks and then trip you. You need to stop him before he is able to do this or you'll have a very unfortunate combat. Encounters come in many flavors but for discussion purposes I see 4 major trends: 1) Meeting engagements -- nobody is prepared. Buffs costs standard actions and need to be carefully considered. 2) Party ambushes -- buffs are at their peak. Even round per level buffs are great if you kick in the door and KNOW your victim is on the other side. 3) Both sides are ambushing (coutner-ambush) -- she knows you are coming through the door and is equally prepared. Everybody is a peak effectiveness and surprise is nullified. 4) Party is ambushed -- grisly and where I see party's take the majority of their casualties. Here is where the classes with abilities that do not take standard actions to raise are at their peak. A fighter ambushed at the end of the day is at least going to put up a decent fight. A psyWar who likes going NOVA could be completely out of good options. Many high level spellcasters devote part of their lists specifically to avoiding this contingency. Buffs are best for #2 and #3. They are okay in #1 if you can't think of better ways to spend actions or if closing takes a couple of rounds (and the enemy charges while the party turtles). But in scenario number #4 I usually find only quickend buffs help alot. Psionics are notorious for making quicken costly, having it brun psionic focus and being less powerful than a non-quickened buff.
TikiMan 09-18-05, 01:58 PM	Archtyrant, you are setting up your testing ground in severe advantage of the Psion/PsyWar. I recommend you have him use his all day buffs (1hour/lvl), then divide his PP by 3. Use that PP total when you do 1v1 comparisons. Otherwise all you're proving is that a psion can beat other classes when he goes nova (which is cheese). All that Temporal Acceleration buffing uses up a lot of PP. Any psion going as hard as you seem to think they always do would run out of PP half way through the second fight of the day. If you never have more then 1 encounter per rest cycle in all of your games, then add a house rule where Psions can use no more then 1/3 of their PP per combat (and you might want to do something similar for all casters, 2ed had a neat system for it). If you're going to play in a game where you don't follow all of the rules and guidelines, you're going to have to make some new ones. What you're doing is the exact same thing as saying 'the Fighter is overpowered because he can deal 1 gajillion damage in a day if he attacks things all day long'. You set up a situation that, under a good DM, almost never happens, and then use it as the general run-of-the-mill example. Try putting your psionic character examples through a predesigned quest/campaign and see how well they fare using your tactics. Also, stop comparing level 15+ characters. Everyone knows that all forms of caster become wonky at those levels. Try comparing level 10 characters, or level 6. I think most people play in the 3-13 range, don't they? I rarely make it past 10 myself. Do you game with nothing but epic loving munchkins? If so, find a new group; you'll probably enjoy the game more. By the way, going nova is cheese. It's obvious metagaming with a dash of min/maxing. If you don't allow any splat book material and edit out a lot of PHB spells because you think they are too cheesy, then going nova is cheese too. It requires a special build (at least 3 feats and a handful of powers) to do it better then a base wizard, and even then the wizard can up his nova ability too. There is no difference between a Psion going nova and a Wizard using Polymorph (except it's easier for the Wizard). Both are perfectly within the rules, but are also cheesy abuses of the mechanics of DND. If you don't allow cheese on either side then drop the psionic cheese examples. If your Psions regularly go nova then either use the house rule I suggested above or have more then 1 encounter per day (heck, 2 CR+2 encounters should fix it). And have you noticed that lots of things that wizards/clerics can do that are broken aren't broken in the hands of a Psion? If you give Persistent spell to any arcane/divine caster it will bend the game, and break it if you allow other cleric splat. Give it to a psion and your campaign will hiccup at worst. And Shapechange vs. Greater Metamorphosis? Same cheese, but the Psion has to pay 200xp per use. Oh, and it's Egoist only, so only 1/6th of Psions can do it pre-epic. And Psions have better damage dealing powers, but they are still less useful then other powers/spells. They made something relatively overpowered and it STILL isn't an effective tactic past level 11. What is overpowered past level 11, save-or-die effects, Psionics nerfed. Far fewer save-or-die effects, and many of them don't have scaling DCs. Many powerful caster builds require Metamagic Rods, something Psions don't get (and prevents them from being cheesed). And don't get me started on Hold Person vs. Ectoplasmic Cocoon. A lot of what you consider cheese is automatically taken out of Psionics for you. You seem to have so very many house rules to balance arcane/divine casters. How many house rules would it take to balance Psionics? How many powers would you need to remove? You keep saying 'oh look at all the little bonuses Psions get, they must really add up' while ignoring all of the not so little penalties a Psion takes. Your opinion is blatantly biased. Fix it and then you can participate in an actual discussion.
Gilliard DeRosan 09-18-05, 03:25 PM	I read the arguments that Psions are overpowered, and it brings me to mind of a wargamer. No Roleplaying at all, lets just move our pawns on the board, pick our targets, roll the dice, defeat the endcounter, call it a win and pack up for the next one. Preservation? Why bother? Wargaming is just one "encounter" at a time, and it's over. Personally, in my games, we like to Roleplay. We like a well balanced group, we like people who can handle the traps, locks, intrigue, sneaking, spying, and the like. A party of Psions would be boring, and real easy for me, as a DM, to take care of. My current Dark Sun game, I have a Soul Knife, Bard, Cleric, and Ranger. I take care of the NOVA factor first off by having more than one encounter in a game day. Lets the cleric use all of his spells, something may happen to make them regret this. Trap doing damage to all PCs just before a swarm of minor baddies come out to play, and awwww, no healing for the group. Forces them to actually think, strategize, form tactics. Same with the Soul Knife. No powers from the class to speak of, but he is Githzerai, so he has Psi-like powers, and he somestimes uses them right off the bat, first encounter of the day, but then he has nothing for the rest of the day. Sometimes, he chooses to save them for later, whether he needs them or not. And as for the unlimited powers of Psychic Warriors and Psions. I have had NPCs of both classes against the group, and no, there is not unlimited power. A good Psionic Lion's Charge sucks up a large chunk of PP, you really need to plan ahead and think of what is worth using. it is the same with Psions. You can decide to spend large chunks of PP on lower level powers, augment them and blast away, but Globes of Invulnerability counter these easy. At higher levels, if you use more than 50% of your resources to insure victory, I feel sorry when the DM throws an even bigger badguy at you. However, all of these arguments, pros and cons, etc are moot if this is the type of game that follows the "Rest-fight-rest-travel-fight-rest-encounter-rest-encounter" cycle. Some do, some don't, and it seems that the argumnts about the "incredible power" of psionics comes, 95% of the time I would say, from games that follow this cycle. As a player, I have always feared a high level cleric as opposition. I mean, nice AC, very good Attack mods, buffs up the wazoo. Was in a party once, and we lost one of our major party members to a Destruction spell. Not to mention after whittling away at those precious HP, a Heal goes and makes all that work nil. After that, a Rogue/fighter combo follow as a second feared badguy/combo encounter situation. Let a 15th level psion try to match the 14-21+d6 damage a properly set up rogue can dish out in the right situations, round after round. Tumble, sneak attack. Feint, sneak attack. Flank, sneak attack. A Rogue more often finds himself in a good position to dish out more damage than a Psion would. And the Rogue doesn't have to worry about save for half, save for nothing, Spell/power resistance, energy resistance, etc... Anyway. I have played in enough games to have actual experience to form my opinions, and I have found that Psions/Psychic Warriors don't come near this unlimited power that people seem to think that they have.
Sir Elton 09-19-05, 01:01 PM	:cheer: It's nice to see someone speak from experience and not just the perview of the rules. :) Well, I think we've all just won and lost.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-19-05, 01:53 PM	Absurd. Wasting standard actions to deliver small amounts of low duration temporary hit points. In any situation in which you want the hit points you're better off not wasting the standard action and instead either getting out of harms way, or neutralizing the opposition. Vigor is a terrible power, nigh useless unless you take several other deployment powers or feats and waste a hugh number of power points to make it half decent. Well, this is really where quicken and especialyl temporal acceleration come in. Vigor alone really doesn't put a psion over a cleric archer, nor do any of the buffs alone. However, the fact that you can temporal accel and really not lose a step in your combat efficiency is where the power of psionics comes in. While the cleric is spending a round casting righteous might or divine power, you can easily fire off temporal accel and get a good chunk of buffs in as a swift action. And no you don't really need to use them all. Also, consider that most psionics buffs are 1 minute/level, a minor difference from the cleric's 1 round/level seemingly, until you get to level 10 or higher, when you can stretch out some of these buffs through multiple encounters assuming you're willing to move through the dungeon quickly enough. So one defensive precog may well last through several fights, which dramatically improves efficiency at levels 10-16 when it means something. At levels 17-20, you generally have so many points you can afford to burn powers with near reckless abandon anyway, so efficiency isn't as much an issue there. Yeah, one fight per day, if you tip all the advantages in the PsyWars favor. But then, I could say that with almost every class in the game, and stuff as much hearsay, supposition, and guesswork into my analysis as you've put in yours. Furthermore, deep impact is far from crazy powerful. With the existance of feats like shock trooper and leap attack, I'd really like to see more out of a feat as high as a feat chain as deep impact is. Well, remember that this is talking about a core psi versus core fighter types. Shock trooper and leap attack are both noncore feats. Once the complete psionic comes out, then we can compare psi + splat to fighter + splat, but right now comparing core psi versus fighter + splat isn't a very fair comparison. Yeah, your favorite wizard being the one who can't use gate, forcecage, the bigby's spells, ultility summons, any illusion spell, meteor swarm, scorching ray, hold person, hold monster, divine power, divine favor, divine might, animal growth, can't cast shapechange without paying XP, the list goes on and on and on. Gate is fairly broken power wise, though really as a cheese tactic goes, a psion can do an astral construct nova and probably get better mileage out of his summons and avoid the 1000 XP cost. Forcecage is admittedly an awesome spell. So that's a point in the arcane's favor definitely. It does have a rather expensive component though, which does hurt. meteor swarm and scorching ray are marginal spells at higher level, personally I'd take energy stun over either of them. I assume you mean divine power, not divine might, since divine might is a feat, not a spell. And divine power, while awesome, just isn't all that impressive without persistent spell. Psionic buffs can be more easily quickened, last 1 minute/level possibly lasting two battles and at high level gives better bonuses than divine power, plus there are more of them to stack on. Also divine power grants enhancement bonuses, which don't stack with your existing items, where psionic buffs almost all grant insight bonuses which essentially stack with everything, except for the rare item like the ioun stone of +1 insight to AC. So I guess you give all your psions free unlimited access to font of power do you? I don't see how they handle even a small workload doing things like this. If you think I'm wrong, post a build that proves you can. Go on, do it, 20 levels, 32 point buy, 190,000 XP, 760,000 GP, as much psionic splat material as you like (please exclude the use of synchronicity, most of us have conceeded that you can really amp up the cheese on it) Well given that you've already created a very thorough thread on psionic novas, I don't really see any need to reprint what's already written there. As for burning power points and font of power, consider that a 20th level psion character has 343 power points base, plus 110 more if you assume an int of 32 (all in all, a very modest assumption) .. that leaves a total of 453 power points. Now, divine that by 4 encounters per day, and you've got 113 pp to burn per encounter. An overchanneled energy stun is going to take you about 24 pp (assuming the orange ioun stone for +1 manifester level). So this means you've got about 4 energy stuns per encounter like this. Now in reality, you may be able to find an easy encounter and let your party do most of the work and save PP, thus leaving more for the next. You may only have 3 encounters per day. You may only have one encounter per day. If you use buffs, you actually save a heck of a lot more pp because while you may buff for say 160 pp on the first battle of the dungeon, those buffs stay in effect 20+ minutes each. Meaning that they should be good for another 2 encounters at least. Throw on a dispelling buffer combined wtih your overchannel and you probably don't care anymore when the greater dispels get thrown at you. Prove it. Using swift powers is the same as quicken spells, but you know, worse. Swift action powers take pretty universally 6 points to make swift, drastically reducing their effectiveness, and totally eliminating this option at low levels. A buffed cleric can easily match a buffed psionic character, both of them have access to dispelling, and the cleric is likely stronger unbuffed, due to armor profs, domain abilities, and a nastier selection of spells. True, the cleric is better "unbuffed" but we seriously don't care. The fighter trumps everyone unbuffed too, but that little bit is meaningless. A cleric gets hit with a dispel and he's down at least one round of preparation. A psion gets dispelled and first, it probably won't work, due to dispelling buffer. Second, even if it does work, he's one temporal acceleration from bringing all his buffs back online. So we're supposed to ignore large chunks from the PHB because you don't like them, and make our comparisons to psionics based on the weakest possible options in the core books? If you're going to do so much nerf work on magic, then do it to psionics for your game and leave us alone. Some of us think it works. Some of us have run numbers or played in games that lead us to believe it works. Yes, sometimes they're just irrelevant for a balance debate. For instance, anyone who can cast fabricate and wall of iron can effectively get infinite wealth by mass producing suits of full plate. Anyone with planar binding can get infinite wishes from efreeti or use one of those wishes to wish up some extraordinary uber epic item. People really can use shapechange to mine vorpal swords from balors. But this crap is meaningless in a balance debate, so I do just gloss over it. We assume any sane DM will fix and disallow this stuff, and if he doesn't the game itself ceases to function so we don't care anyway. So if you assume certain spells exist, then we can't have a debate anymore, because at that point it doesn't matter how uber the psion is at level 20, the game actually ended 9 levels ago as soon as the wizard could cast fabricate and made infinite gold or started a planar binding loop and "won D&D". Or maybe the wizard used PaO to create a black hole and destroyed the campaign world. You just can't use the "win D&D" combos to actually prove anything because as far as the game is concerned, they dont' exist, because when you use them, the game ends. The result goes beyond the scope of the game. It's much like talking about what happens in Magic: the Gathering when you get to -450 life. Nobody cares because the game ended long ago. Warrior types are stong because they can, get this, do some nasty stuff in combat without taking time to buff. Absolutely correct, and it's the same thing that makes temporal acceleration so incredibly broke. Using temp. accel the psion (especially the psion/slayer) eliminates any time he needs to buff and becomes superior to any warrior in his buffed state. Sorcerers have been compared extensively, and dispite how weak people seem to think they are, they compare pretty well to a psion if you ask me. Sorcerers are lacking in a single area which makes them inferior. No quickened spells. It's as though they don't have a swift action at all, and that fact is utterly crippling at higher levels. If you want to talk to me about classes that aren't good direct comparisons, lets talk wilders and soul knives, and see how broken they are. The soul knife is broken alright, but on the other side. He's so incredibly weak he just can't compete with anybody. The wilder I have yet to actually see played, so I can't say anything about what he can or can't do. This is factless, unsupported opinion. Want me to take it seriously? Then Prove it Get a group together to run on OpenRPG. Get someone to make a core fighter, another a core rogue, a core cleric archer and a core wizard. I'll bring along a core psionic character and we'll run a quest and see how my arguments measure up. Just name the time and I'll show up. Then I'll give you your proof firsthand in a game.
Scion of Coldshard 09-19-05, 02:20 PM	I dont understand your fixation on temporal acceleration. Especially as it basically starts off as a weird form of quicken (some advantages and some disadvantages). Sure, it will allow you to get an extra buff up, but for the next round afterwards you are shaken. That is a pretty hefty penalty: Shaken: Characters who are shaken take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Plus it costs 11pp and your swift action to pull off. So no other quick powers or abilities. It seems like a decent emergency power (uh oh, we just got jumped!) but then that is exactly how quicken works anyway. With that 6th level equivalent slot the cleric could have quicked a 2nd level spell, which could very well be a buff and he wouldnt have to worry about being shaken. Also, for most psions dispelling buffer takes a feat. While it is a nice power to have not everyone will have the extra feats to toss around, and even if they do there are several other good choices as well (not to mention that the earliest you can get it is level 15 or so). I just dont see the problem that you do I guess. Also, in case it matters, I have a great deal of experience with d&d and psionics. Over all levels that I have played the number of broken things dealing with other types of magic out numbers the parts that might be broken in psionics at least 10:1. Yet, people dont seem to have a problem with the other magic versions. They will turn a blind eye or say, 'well, of course we ignore that, it'd be silly not to' but if there is anything that is even remotely useful or 'might' be overpowered in psionics people run around screaming. Isnt that nice.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-19-05, 02:47 PM	Also, in case it matters, I have a great deal of experience with d&d and psionics. Over all levels that I have played the number of broken things dealing with other types of magic out numbers the parts that might be broken in psionics at least 10:1. Yet, people dont seem to have a problem with the other magic versions. They will turn a blind eye or say, 'well, of course we ignore that, it'd be silly not to' but if there is anything that is even remotely useful or 'might' be overpowered in psionics people run around screaming. Actually this stuff is totally true. This is because the psionic imbalances tend to be numeric, while the extreme core rules arcane and divine imbalances tend to be other stuff, like planar binding loops, or polymorph mechanics or other similar stuff. It's actually remarkably easier to write off fabricate/wall of iron because it does end the game instantly when someone abuses it. Therefore, you either rule 0 it or the game ends. Psionic imbalances on the other hand aren't nearly as obvious. Aside from crazy novas, you aren't going to see a buffed psion/slayer that totally dwarfs everyone with +1000 damage combos and other stuff that's immediately totally crazy. You're going to see little things and pure versatility. Great AC, Great attack rolls, Good damage, Awesome hit points, Paladin level saves, versatile powers for almost every occasion. And none of those things, none of them, taken on face value alone is going to make a broken character standalone. It's not just that inertial armor at level 20 can grant you the effects of +7 full plate. It's not just that psionic iron body absolutely trumps arcane iron body. It's not that you can buff yourself with attack and damage buffs that make divine favor look like crap and have them for 20 minutes (40 with extend). It's not even that defensive precog can grant you paladin style save bonuses as well as a huge AC boost... It's none of these things alone. It's when you actually create the sum of the parts that things truly show themselves as broken. Essentially, it all boils down to the fact that the one balancing mechanic that is supposed to control psionics is the ever looming specter of running out of power points. Now, obviously this automatically makes any psionic NPCs broken because multiple encounters and point attrition are absolutely meaningless to NPCs. So long as they don't run out in the middle of one battle, they could really care less. And beyond point attrition as a supposed balance mechanic, what other balancing factors are there? What keeps the NPC psion under control?
Scion of Coldshard 09-19-05, 03:13 PM	I still havent seen you put up anything actually unbalanced however. That is not to say that there arent some things which could use some work, but actually completely unbalancing that are limited to psionics alone. There are a couple transfers that are unbalanced (polymorph and metamorph, shapechange) but since those are continued problems they arent a psionic problem. Inertial armor can give you a decent AC for a pile of pp? Ok, good. At 19 pp (equivalent of a 10th level spell) it grants an armor bonus of +13, vs full plates.. +13.. But of course they each have their bonuses and drawbacks. That certainly doesnt look broken. It looks like a valid choice between the two. If the psionic choice has to always be inferior to the nonpsionic part in order for you to feel that the game is balanced then no matter what, in my opinion, any changes you make or wish were made will be unbalanced from the beginning.
DisposableHero_ 09-19-05, 05:37 PM	Well, this is really where quicken and especialyl temporal acceleration come in. Vigor alone really doesn't put a psion over a cleric archer, nor do any of the buffs alone. However, the fact that you can temporal accel and really not lose a step in your combat efficiency is where the power of psionics comes in. While the cleric is spending a round casting righteous might or divine power, you can easily fire off temporal accel and get a good chunk of buffs in as a swift action. And no you don't really need to use them all.Where are these power points coming from AT? Seriously, if you want a respectable base attack (and you do if you're going go slayer buff happy) you're gonna cap out around 400 pp/day. With 34 int and a kalashtar Psion8/Slayer9/SanctifiedMind3. Furthermore, you're basing your assumptions on more feats that such a character gets. I followed the argument and tried to build the character so I had something to argue off of. You can't have it all. Even with flaws I couldn't get that build to have the full suite of focus expending support, quicken and extend power, power attack and deep impact, and enough expanded knowledge to make it all work with cross discipline combinations like using psionic lion's charge and schism with your buffs while still getting metamorphosis and so forth, there just aren't enough feats. Your power selection is also pretty terrible for all but the highest levels of play. Even with that heavily opitimized build, you could only make it work at low levels if you made a point to psychic reform away just about every choice you've made at level 9 and replace them with gish choices. Next. Schism 7 power points, temporal acceleration 11 power points for one round, 13 for two with extend, 19 for 3, 17 for 4 with extend, 21 for six. Lets assume we're going for 4 rounds not overchanneling. Lets further assume that blowing 5 power points a round on hustle to double refocus and multiple overchannel with schism running and make the most of our buffing is gonna happen too. Now we're at points going and we haven't done anything yet. Then we're going to shoot our 8 buffs up to the max, 21 points for normal, 18 for schism. Suddenly our expenditures have made it to 200 points just in preparation. That gets us what? A full power Vigor, Force Screen, Offensive Precog, Defensive Procog, Metamorph, Iron Body, True Metabolism, and Biofeedback. This doesn't cover you're whole list, but it'll have to due I guess, since we want power points left over to vigor away all the incoming damage, lion's charge into the fray, and continue to hustle to get full attacks with a single deep impact hit, and energy stun our foes into submission (we obviously need a high augment for this, since we're basing it on the augment getting to DCs to skyrocket). When we say you've got one fight, we mean you've got one fight, and that is it. You can't have it all AT, you can't even come close, if it takes it all to be broken as you say than it isn't broken, because you just can't have it all one character without cheating Also, consider that most psionics buffs are 1 minute/level, a minor difference from the cleric's 1 round/level seemingly, until you get to level 10 or higher, when you can stretch out some of these buffs through multiple encounters assuming you're willing to move through the dungeon quickly enough. So one defensive precog may well last through several fights, which dramatically improves efficiency at levels 10-16 when it means something.This is speculative and highly conditional, but I'll give you that some times the durations are a boon, not a big one, but a boon. Still doesn't address the prevalence (or at least widespread availability) of dispelling in high level encounters and the fact that you just never have the points to rebuff if you're going to go all out. At levels 17-20, you generally have so many points you can afford to burn powers with near reckless abandon anyway, so efficiency isn't as much an issue there.Thats just plain wrong. I cannot take your argument seriously if you continue to include this in it. Its flat our wrong and there is nothing more to say. Stamina matters if the DM gives two hoots about balancing caster types. Well, remember that this is talking about a core psi versus core fighter types. Shock trooper and leap attack are both noncore feats. Once the complete psionic comes out, then we can compare psi + splat to fighter + splat, but right now comparing core psi versus fighter + splat isn't a very fair comparison.No. I'll compare psi to splats all I want. People play with splats. I'm not using old editions or third party material. More people likely play with complete warrior than with the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Complete Warrior raises the power level of fighters, by giving them a bevy of powerful new options in the form of fighter feats. If you're going to complain that fighters are below par, don't complain when WotC releases material the improves the situation. Core only is next to meaningless, because a large number of goups that play core only, have such a deep seated aversion to splatbooks that psionics is out by default. If it is the case that some core only groups are thinking about psionics, fine, you might, on the slimest off chance, have to lightly tone down on power/PrC/Feat or two, but really not much at all. If you can't defend your position outside of the core game (and I don't think you have much of a leg to stand on inside a core only game) then I'll be glad to leave with the admission that psionics work fine in games willing to allow some splat material. Gate is fairly broken power wise, though really as a cheese tactic goes, a psion can do an astral construct nova and probably get better mileage out of his summons and avoid the 1000 XP cost.Excuse me, I have a very large amount of laughing to do... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :heehee :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Forcecage is admittedly an awesome spell. So that's a point in the arcane's favor definitely. It does have a rather expensive component though, which does hurt.Yeah, but you can't win em all. Still, glad to see something is registering. meteor swarm and scorching ray are marginal spells at higher level, personally I'd take energy stun over either of them.Well in terms of damage efficiency, they trump any psionic power in the books, and most empowered psionic powers as well. Add metamagic to those scorching rays and you'll see what I mean. Empower and maximize for core, split ray, twin and energy admixture with splats. I assume you mean divine power, not divine might, since divine might is a feat, not a spell.Actually, I meant righteous might, sorry for the confusion (yes I've seen the errata, no I don't care) And divine power, while awesome, just isn't all that impressive without persistent spell.I'll now refer to my previous point about laughing. This is trolling right here. You can't honestly expect me to believe you when you play up sub par psionic buffs like vigor (using phrases like blow classes out of the water and other hyperbole) and yet you'll downplay divine power. Come back when you have a coherent argument, Divine Power is better than just about any psionic buffs. It is more efficient in terms of resource expenditure, it grants extra attacks, sizeable strength increase extra hit points, bonuses to hit, the whole nine yards. It also lets you branch into low base attack PrCs like Divine Oracle or Contemplative without any loss of combat efficiency. This is the best buff in the game for its price, and it is one of the very few I consider worth standing around and casting as a standard action. Psionic buffs can be more easily quickenedHogwash, quickening costs 6 caster levels worth of power for psionics. A quickened buff is a gimped buff in psionics, its not elsewhere. last 1 minute/level possibly lasting two battles and at high level gives better bonuses than divine power, plus there are more of them to stack on.Bull Also divine power grants enhancement bonuses, which don't stack with your existing items, where psionic buffs almost all grant insight bonuses which essentially stack with everything, except for the rare item like the ioun stone of +1 insight to AC.All of them being, what, 2, 3, maybe 4 powers. Sure. And only assimilate gives a non-enhancement bonus to strength in psionics, and only if you kill something with it, kinda defeats the purpose. Oh yeah, and thats 9th level. Compare it to say, shapechange (core) or greater visage of the deity (splats). I will respond to the remainder when I get time.
Votan 09-19-05, 06:01 PM	Also, consider that most psionics buffs are 1 minute/level, a minor difference from the cleric's 1 round/level seemingly, until you get to level 10 or higher, when you can stretch out some of these buffs through multiple encounters assuming you're willing to move through the dungeon quickly enough. If 10 minutes is enough time for multiple eoncounters then you are literally running from one to the next. While a possible tactic, one really hopes that your psion does not run into traps along the way. Destruction, for example, goes against a non-favored psion save and is utterly core as a trap.
Scion of Coldshard 09-19-05, 06:16 PM	Hey DisposableHero, schism and temporal accel dont stack very well ;) Splintered or partitioned minds within your own mind, such as might be in effect through the use of powers such as schism, are not temporally speeded up, even if your second mind manifested this power (your primary mind gains the benefit, while your second mind remains stuck in the standard time frame).
DisposableHero_ 09-19-05, 07:05 PM	Well given that you've already created a very thorough thread on psionic novas, I don't really see any need to reprint what's already written there. As for burning power points and font of power, consider that a 20th level psion character has 343 power points base, plus 110 more if you assume an int of 32 (all in all, a very modest assumption) .. that leaves a total of 453 power points. Now, divine that by 4 encounters per day, and you've got 113 pp to burn per encounter. An overchanneled energy stun is going to take you about 24 pp (assuming the orange ioun stone for +1 manifester level). So this means you've got about 4 energy stuns per encounter like this.Four energy stuns doesn't mean a whole lot. Even if you pick a good target for it, overcome any SR/PR and stun them four times while dealing 22d6 each time, it only covers a single target each time, and only stuns one round, so its poor against groups of enemies. Its not as though a Wizard prepared for the day couldn't take out a single opponent with a single well placed save or die spell. Its not a terrible way to go about things, but certainly not a great one, and certainly not all that broken. Hit one guy, and stun him if he fails two saves. Now, they are pretty tough saves here, DC 44 from the looks of things or 46 if you were to choose electricity, but not unmakeable with two chances at it. Furthermore, there are plenty more vile things that a caster type could do to someone for the same or fewer resources. Now in reality, you may be able to find an easy encounter and let your party do most of the work and save PP, thus leaving more for the next. You may only have 3 encounters per day. You may only have one encounter per day.You may have none, you may have five, you may have ten, you may have a fight where your survival depends on using utility powers, you may have to burn power points on non-combat situations, and you may run into any number of things, all of this is reality. If you're smart, you'll conserve, so as to both contribute to the party, and not do all the work yourself, because one thing is certain: If you step out of line, a good DM will not hesitate to put you back in your place. It is as true for clerics, druid, wizards, and sorcerers as it is for psions, psychic warriors, and wilders, as it is for barbarians, paladins, rangers, fighters, rogues, and everyone else. If you use buffs, you actually save a heck of a lot more pp because while you may buff for say 160 pp on the first battle of the dungeon, those buffs stay in effect 20+ minutes each. Meaning that they should be good for another 2 encounters at least. Throw on a dispelling buffer combined wtih your overchannel and you probably don't care anymore when the greater dispels get thrown at you. So we fight two encounters a day 20 minutes apart now? You have no guarentee that those powers last more than one, if they last the full one. You may be so unfortunate as to be disjoined or dispelled, and you may have more than 20 minutes between fights, no one knows. As there exist countermeasures, and effective ones that easily lie within the DMs control, and don't take much more change to adapt to than buff happy clerics or arcane gish or anyone else, and the effects aren't even out of line with what other casters can do, they just aren't broken. Good sure, but not broken. Furthermore, if you've spent 160 pp on buffs, then you overshot your conservation figures from before. Well, that and you were either a spectator, or you burned another 40 to 50 on deployment. Thats without using any more power points on combat maneuvers and direct effect powers like walls, lion's charges, energy stuns and so forth that you seem so invariably ready to parade around as examples of broken. Last, if you're buffing, and planning on being good at it, you're certainly a gish type, either a psychic warrior or a psion/slayer, or a wilder/slayer or some other permutation thereof. In order to be one of these, you fill two of the following compared to a pure psion: 1) Fewer Power Points 2) Fewer Feats 3) Fewer Powers Known All of which by the way, if you bothered to ever stat out that which you are complaining about, you'd realize were essential to making it work even close to the way you're drawing it up. True, the cleric is better "unbuffed" but we seriously don't care. The fighter trumps everyone unbuffed too, but that little bit is meaningless. A cleric gets hit with a dispel and he's down at least one round of preparation. A psion gets dispelled and first, it probably won't work, due to dispelling buffer. Second, even if it does work, he's one temporal acceleration from bringing all his buffs back online.If you played Dungeons and Dragons once in while you might know that it is far from meaningless. Half the powers you're mentioning just serve to bridge the gap between the psion/slayer and the fighter in terms of fighting potential. Offensive Precognition isn't as good as full base attack bonus, inertial armor isn't as good as magical full plate (cause we can put cool abilities on our magical full plate, as you seem to not realize, some of which make all the difference in the world, and full plate still offers +8 armor when dispelled), defensive precognition isn't as good as divine grace, force screen isn't as good as an animate shield, vigor isn't as good as having 100 more hp. The list of buffs that truely give you an edge is very very short. In psionics, I'd give it to iron body, true metabolism, and the metamorphs, and thats about it. Wasting resources piling on buffs rather than playing to the strengths of the class simply isn't an optimized way to go about it. I think buffs are highly overrated on the boards. They look good on paper, but they just aren't all that when the game gets started. Yes, sometimes they're just irrelevant for a balance debate. For instance, anyone who can cast fabricate and wall of iron can effectively get infinite wealth by mass producing suits of full plate. Anyone with planar binding can get infinite wishes from efreeti or use one of those wishes to wish up some extraordinary uber epic item. People really can use shapechange to mine vorpal swords from balors. But this crap is meaningless in a balance debate, so I do just gloss over it. We assume any sane DM will fix and disallow this stuff, and if he doesn't the game itself ceases to function so we don't care anyway. So if you assume certain spells exist, then we can't have a debate anymore, because at that point it doesn't matter how uber the psion is at level 20, the game actually ended 9 levels ago as soon as the wizard could cast fabricate and made infinite gold or started a planar binding loop and "won D&D". Or maybe the wizard used PaO to create a black hole and destroyed the campaign world.Why is this meaningless? Is it meaningless because a good DM can easily say no? Please. It a good DM cures all ills and has nothing to do with how balanced a book is. So with all that sitting in the core books, you're going to tell me that you have a big problem with a +7 insight bonus to AC for 18 power points? Get real, you can take the XPH pretty much as written and do fine. Its not broken or overpowered. There aren't any enormous chunks of it that the DM has to just say no to. There are just some cool possibilities that create exploitable weaknesses and applicable strengths. You just can't use the "win D&D" combos to actually prove anything because as far as the game is concerned, they dont' exist, because when you use them, the game ends. The result goes beyond the scope of the game. It's much like talking about what happens in Magic: the Gathering when you get to -450 life. Nobody cares because the game ended long ago.And somehow a system thats useable and and at least hazy enough on the balance issue to have logical supporters on both sides is worse than this? Get serious, the XPH is solidly balanced, I've never had a serious problem with the material in it, I've never had to houserule anything in it because it was too powerful, and I've never had to flat out say no to any part of it. I can't say the same about the PHB, and I can't say the same about a lot of splatbooks, plain and simple. Absolutely correct, and it's the same thing that makes temporal acceleration so incredibly broke. Using temp. accel the psion (especially the psion/slayer) eliminates any time he needs to buff and becomes superior to any warrior in his buffed state.Cool, now get this. 30 minutes later the fighter is still going, and the slayer has the proverbial big neon "kick me" sign on his back because he's out of PP, and might well have irritated the DM by making a mockery of the previous encounter. He's in for some good old fashioned tough love, while the fighter is ready for whatever is coming around the next corner. Sorcerers are lacking in a single area which makes them inferior. No quickened spells. It's as though they don't have a swift action at all, and that fact is utterly crippling at higher levels.Calling a sorcerer utterly crippled at higher level, would be the mark of someone who doesn't know what a well played arcane caster is. To be frank, no one with ninth level spells is utterly crippled at high levels. I would say the sorcerer is mildly inferior to the wizard, and I would site metamagic as a pretty big part of that, but I would never call him utterly crippled. The soul knife is broken alright, but on the other side. He's so incredibly weak he just can't compete with anybody.I think your hyperbole overdoes it, but I'm inclined to agree in principal, the soulknife is in need of a little shot in the arm. The wilder I have yet to actually see played, so I can't say anything about what he can or can't do.Thats the smartest thing you've posted on this thread. Get a group together to run on OpenRPG. Get someone to make a core fighter, another a core rogue, a core cleric archer and a core wizard. I'll bring along a core psionic character and we'll run a quest and see how my arguments measure up. Just name the time and I'll show up. Then I'll give you your proof firsthand in a game.Why not post the stats here? Would be simpler for everyone me thinks. I'm not particularly concerned with your proof for my own purposes, I'm fairly certain I'm more familiar with 3.5 psionics than you are, judging by your proclaimed distaste for them, I'd just like to have some statistics to argue against, because it would mean I wouldn't have to spout theory at you, I could actually look at some numbers. Go ahead, build one, I'd love to see how you'd do it. I'm sure everyone else here would as well. 32 point buy, level 20, standard wealth, progression, items, feats, skills, tactics, the whole nine yards. Lets see what you can do :D
DisposableHero_ 09-19-05, 07:08 PM	Hey DisposableHero, schism and temporal accel dont stack very well ;)Opps, guess even my exaggerated example was illegal. On a related note, that doesn't say what happens when you partition your mind while under the effects of temporal acceleration. I wonder if that would work. Guess to make that example work I'd have to make it metamorph to choker, and use that metamorphic transfer feat I didn't have room for.
Sir Elton 09-19-05, 07:30 PM	Why not post the stats here? Would be simpler for everyone me thinks. I'm not particularly concerned with your proof for my own purposes, I'm fairly certain I'm more familiar with 3.5 psionics than you are, judging by your proclaimed distaste for them, I'd just like to have some statistics to argue against, because it would mean I wouldn't have to spout theory at you, I could actually look at some numbers. Go ahead, build one, I'd love to see how you'd do it. I'm sure everyone else here would as well. 32 point buy, level 20, standard wealth, progression, items, feats, skills, tactics, the whole nine yards. Lets see what you can do :D Boy DH, you're really wailing on AT. But I wish the both of you will get it overwith. It's starting to get . . . unexciting. DH, you are doing a good job. AT, I think you need to look closely at what DH is trying to inform you of. D&D is a great game, and it allows us to do anything we can imagine. But a previous poster is right. Psionics seems to be overpowered because those that report psionic cheese are usually wargaming with D&D. However, it's not really the case. If one plays D&D as a roleplaying game, it's a moot point. I believe. Psionics can be easily abused because of ignorance of the rules. This is simply because the rules set takes some getting used to. But I like the current 3.5 fix over the 3.0 one because of the Psionic Focus rule and the Can't Augment past your Manifester Level rule. Although, I think the latter was in 3.0, but nobody really noticed it. The former was just a new addition. I like 3.5 psi because it's really fun to play with and to roleplay with. So, it is my belief, AT, that you should try it out with a good DM and show us the results. :)
Gilliard DeRosan 09-19-05, 08:08 PM	Well, this is really where quicken and especialyl temporal acceleration come in. Vigor alone really doesn't put a psion over a cleric archer, nor do any of the buffs alone. However, the fact that you can temporal accel and really not lose a step in your combat efficiency is where the power of psionics comes in. While the cleric is spending a round casting righteous might or divine power, you can easily fire off temporal accel and get a good chunk of buffs in as a swift action. And no you don't really need to use them all. Also, consider that most psionics buffs are 1 minute/level, a minor difference from the cleric's 1 round/level seemingly, until you get to level 10 or higher, when you can stretch out some of these buffs through multiple encounters assuming you're willing to move through the dungeon quickly enough. So one defensive precog may well last through several fights, which dramatically improves efficiency at levels 10-16 when it means something. At levels 17-20, you generally have so many points you can afford to burn powers with near reckless abandon anyway, so efficiency isn't as much an issue there. Hmmm, Shield of Faith - 1 min/level. (1st level) Bull's Strength - 1 min/level. (2nd Level) Magic Vestment - 1 hour/level. (3rd level) Protection from Energy - 10 min/level or until discharged. (3rd level) Magic Weapon, Greater - 1 hour/level. (4th level) Spell Resistance (12) - 1 min/level (5th level) All spells that you get before reaching level 10. Notice the one you can cast to add to your armor and shield lasts an hour per level. Magic weapon lasts an hour. So, there are a nice supply of longer-than-1 round-per level spells for a cleric. meteor swarm and scorching ray are marginal spells at higher level, personally I'd take energy stun over either of them. Scorching ray is a nice spell all around. Ranged touch, no save, 2 bolts at 7th level, 3 at 11th level for a total of 12d6. Yeah, it is short range, but it is still nice. As for burning power points and font of power, consider that a 20th level psion character has 343 power points base, plus 110 more if you assume an int of 32 (all in all, a very modest assumption) .. that leaves a total of 453 power points. Now, divine that by 4 encounters per day, and you've got 113 pp to burn per encounter. An overchanneled energy stun is going to take you about 24 pp (assuming the orange ioun stone for +1 manifester level). So this means you've got about 4 energy stuns per encounter like this. 32int being a modest assumption? Sounds like a min-maxers dream. Lets see, assuming you have +6 item of intellect, and have put all 5 of your level granted ability modifiers into Int, and you started with an 18, thats 29. And that is assuming that you dump nothing into stats. That is also assuming that players have free reign as far as magic item choice goes. As a DM, I limit the availability of items for sale. Time is a factor as well, which limits the ability to create their own items (but we don't have any INT casters anyway, and the cleric hasn't bothered with any item creation feats). Now, assuming a perfect world, where you can pick and choose your items freely, and you can neglect Con, Wis (or just spend money of items for them as well) then I can see a 20th level Psion having a 32 Int (maybe a few points from Wishes or books), Now, lets look at that Energy Stun. If you have a Low Fort save, you can assume any psion will use cold based, so you just get a ring of greater cold resistance, which knocks down the first 30 points of each attack. Or, Assuming you wear armor, and again, assuming you have free choice of magic items, it would take 330,000gp to have your Armor enchanted with Greater resistances for Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid and Sonic, which would take care of 30 points per attack. If you are a caster, throw up a Minor Globe of Invulnerability, and that 2nd level Energy Stun now becomes useless. (costs 137,500 for a book of +5 Int, and it makes it permanent, not dispellable). Now in reality, you may be able to find an easy encounter and let your party do most of the work and save PP, thus leaving more for the next. You may only have 3 encounters per day. You may only have one encounter per day. If you use buffs, you actually save a heck of a lot more pp because while you may buff for say 160 pp on the first battle of the dungeon, those buffs stay in effect 20+ minutes each. Meaning that they should be good for another 2 encounters at least. Throw on a dispelling buffer combined wtih your overchannel and you probably don't care anymore when the greater dispels get thrown at you. Who says multiple encounters are going to happen within 20 minutes of each other? That is a far reaching assumption to make. [/QUOTE]But this crap is meaningless in a balance debate, so I do just gloss over it. We assume any sane DM will fix and disallow this stuff, and if he doesn't the game itself ceases to function so we don't care anyway. So if you assume certain spells exist, then we can't have a debate anymore, because at that point it doesn't matter how uber the psion is at level 20, the game actually ended 9 levels ago as soon as the wizard could cast fabricate and made infinite gold or started a planar binding loop and "won D&D". Or maybe the wizard used PaO to create a black hole and destroyed the campaign world. You just can't use the "win D&D" combos to actually prove anything because as far as the game is concerned, they dont' exist, because when you use them, the game ends. The result goes beyond the scope of the game. It's much like talking about what happens in Magic: the Gathering when you get to -450 life. Nobody cares because the game ended long ago. [/QUOTE] Assuming that the DM will Fix/disallow any spells that are broke also means you have to assume the DM will throw you 4 encounters per day, perhaps 1-3 hours apart, just to let those buffs end (except the hour/level ones-not much you can do about those). Personally, I don't have a hoarde of creatures all hanging out in the same vicinity. Travel is involved, and time is consumed in travel. Absolutely correct, and it's the same thing that makes temporal acceleration so incredibly broke. Using temp. accel the psion (especially the psion/slayer) eliminates any time he needs to buff and becomes superior to any warrior in his buffed state. You use a swift action to gain a round of time to do something, you then come back shaken - which has signigicant penalties, like -2 to attack, saves, skills, etc. Time stop lets the mage do the same thing - albeit at a higher level, but at this higher level, he also has potential for 2 more rounds than the psion can use. It really doesn't do that much for you. As soon as you pop ack, all someone has to do is blast you and take advantage of your reduced saves. Ahh well
DisposableHero_ 09-19-05, 11:25 PM	Boy DH, you're really wailing on AT. But I wish the both of you will get it overwith. It's starting to get . . . unexciting.It was unexciting on the original myth thread when he posted the same old song and dance, and was told exactly what I'm telling him now, and continued to ignore it. That was months ago. I'd rather drop the argument since neither of us is going to convince the other of anything, but the fact remains, that I, along with many psi-fans link people to these threads for in depth balance discussion and a place to post their issues, I can't leave posts like ATs unanswered because it would leave people with the impression that there was no answer and psionics was overpowered, I can't let that stand, both sides of the argument need to be seen, even if all I'm doing is repeating myself. Thus, I will continue to answer until he loses interest. If one plays D&D as a roleplaying game, it's a moot point. I believe.If everyone is purely interesting in roleplaying and no one wants something that works well mechanically, then all balance discussions are moot. I dare say that most games don't fall into that catatgory. Mine don't, though I do my best to encourage role playing (though, beer and pretzels gaming doesn't begin to describe how casual my gaming group is). Lack of balance can hurt some games, not just those played by people with a heavy wargaming background and inclination, so its not so trivial as to be wisely dismissed. I agree that it shouldn't be as important to the majority of games as some people on these boards would lead you to believe. 32int being a modest assumption? Sounds like a min-maxers dream.Its actually more reasonable than you think for 20th level. Starting with a 16 in a race that has no bonus to intelligence it takes 5 points from levels, a tome of clear thought +5, and a headband of intellect +6 to accomplish. This is far from unheadof, and would in fact be pretty standard for 32 point buy, though that is a high powered game according to the DMG. It still not nearly as many power points as he makes it out to be, and it still only happens if you ignore all prestige classes possible. As far as I know, the highest pre-epic power point total one could attain is 612, using a venerable kalashtar psion 20 with an 18 starting int, +5 tome, +6 headband, five points from levels, 2 flaws, and every feat spent on psionic talent. Well, ok, thats the best if you don't want to get into continuous greater visage of the deity items and gestalt psion/dragon disciples, the anthropomorphic template for psywars, level adjustment buyoff, and crazy stuff like that.
Gilliard DeRosan 09-19-05, 11:57 PM	It was unexciting on the original myth thread when he posted the same old song and dance, and was told exactly what I'm telling him now, and continued to ignore it. That was months ago. I'd rather drop the argument since neither of us is going to convince the other of anything, but the fact remains, that I, along with many psi-fans link people to these threads for in depth balance discussion and a place to post their issues, I can't leave posts like ATs unanswered because it would leave people with the impression that there was no answer and psionics was overpowered, I can't let that stand, both sides of the argument need to be seen, even if all I'm doing is repeating myself. Thus, I will continue to answer until he loses interest.I agree. If people see something like this go unanswered, they tend to get the impression that everyone feels the same, so when that is not the case, we need to let the general populace know that that is not the case. Kind of like the bits in the past the posts on Psionic Meditation being a manditory feat choice, instead of just a viable option. Several of us had to go explain how characters were not useless if they chose not to select psionic meditation as a feat. Anyway. . . I know that I have started backing up my points with actual game experience. Seems like the "Waaa, psionics are broken/too powerful" types just keep throwing out hypothetical situations, conjectural builds, and seem to fail to provide any actual tested data here. So of course these points need to be defended. Its actually more reasonable than you think for 20th level. Starting with a 16 in a race that has no bonus to intelligence it takes 5 points from levels, a tome of clear thought +5, and a headband of intellect +6 to accomplish. This is far from unheadof, and would in fact be pretty standard for 32 point buy, though that is a high powered game according to the DMG. It still not nearly as many power points as he makes it out to be, and it still only happens if you ignore all prestige classes possible. As far as I know, the highest pre-epic power point total one could attain is 612, using a venerable kalashtar psion 20 with an 18 starting int, +5 tome, +6 headband, five points from levels, 2 flaws, and every feat spent on psionic talent. Well, ok, thats the best if you don't want to get into continuous greater visage of the deity items and gestalt psion/dragon disciples, the anthropomorphic template for psywars, level adjustment buyoff, and crazy stuff like that. That just sounds so. . . . unfun though. I think of a 32 point buy. Charisma would probably be 10?.. 12 max on such a Int loaded Psion build? Give him the benefit of the doubt and go 14. 20th level Psion can Ego Whip this poor sod with 19PP doing 5d4 charisma damage with a Will Save DC 20+ability mod for half (Will saves are not always the best for caster's manifesters, since they tend to neglect wisdom scores). Average 12.5 charisma.. so even on saves that succeed, 2 good Ego Whips and this blaster-heavy Psion is toast. Personal Preference here, but I have always been rather partial to more well-rounded characters. Decent Con, Charisma, Wis, etc. I don't like putting all my eggs into one basket so to speak, and in games that I run, I find ways to penalize others that put all their eggs into one basket. Real easy to find spells/powers, or even poisons to attack those low Charisma/Strength/Wisdom scores should someone chose to neglect those abilities. When I look at 20th level rounded characters, I see no real scores over 26-28 or so, but nothing under 14-16 either, so no one is vulnerable to a one-shot ability drain. I played a Sorceror not too long ago. Was dice-rolled, not point bought, but I think I had an 18, 16, and the rest were lower than that. Logical choice, 18 Charisma, right? Wrong. 18 Con, 16 Charisma. Make her a little more durable, and let her make up the Charisma later on when she needs to. Just an example of the rounding I try to achieve. Not that I really have anything against concentrating on the abilities you need, I just tend to make sure my characters are more balanced.
Vloorshad 09-20-05, 12:26 AM	I agree. If people see something like this go unanswered, they tend to get the impression that everyone feels the same, so when that is not the case, we need to let the general populace know that that is not the case. Kind of like the bits in the past the posts on Psionic Meditation being a manditory feat choice, instead of just a viable option. Several of us had to go explain how characters were not useless if they chose not to select psionic meditation as a feat. Anyway. . . I know that I have started backing up my points with actual game experience. Seems like the "Waaa, psionics are broken/too powerful" types just keep throwing out hypothetical situations, conjectural builds, and seem to fail to provide any actual tested data here. So of course these points need to be defended. It wouldn't be as bad if it weren't for the fact that this is the same person whose arguments were destroyed on various fronts a few months back. It gets really boring when it's the same person with the same incorrect arguments. Oh well, it's always fun to kick around a troll.
Traevanon 09-20-05, 12:33 AM	Opps, guess even my exaggerated example was illegal. On a related note, that doesn't say what happens when you partition your mind while under the effects of temporal acceleration. I wonder if that would work. Guess to make that example work I'd have to make it metamorph to choker, and use that metamorphic transfer feat I didn't have room for. Oh boy.... So, I am trying to allow psionics in the campaign after all... this sounds worse than when a 12 year old tries to explain how he fixed my computer. I have the feeling the first combat I run with a Psion is going to go like this - DM - Okay John its your initiative. John - I partition your mind while under the effects of temporal acceleration. DM - Parti-wha... tempora-huh... meta-sayagain? Just give me the damage. John - (rolling dice) Um... 532 damage. DM - ???? John - Is it dead? DM - Er... yeah. John - Alright! XP! DM - (scratches head)
Sir Elton 09-20-05, 01:01 AM	Oh boy.... So, I am trying to allow psionics in the campaign after all... this sounds worse than when a 12 year old tries to explain how he fixed my computer. I have the feeling the first combat I run with a Psion is going to go like this - DM - Okay John its your initiative. John - I partition your mind while under the effects of temporal acceleration. DM - Parti-wha... tempora-huh... meta-sayagain? Just give me the damage. John - (rolling dice) Um... 532 damage. DM - ???? John - Is it dead? DM - Er... yeah. John - Alright! XP! DM - (scratches head) Please read the XPH thoroughly before starting any combats. Once you understand the rules, the psion player can't walk right over you.
Vloorshad 09-20-05, 01:16 AM	Please read the XPH thoroughly before starting any combats. Once you understand the rules, the psion player can't walk right over you. The same can be said for any new class, spell, feat, etc. that is added to the game. It just seems that there is a higher probability of Psionics being banned because of ill-informed DMs than any other new material.
DisposableHero_ 09-20-05, 07:25 AM	The same can be said for any new class, spell, feat, etc. that is added to the game. It just seems that there is a higher probability of Psionics being banned because of ill-informed DMs than any other new material.Well, I would say it happens more often for psionics because it looks like a lot more to get used to than a lot of other classes do. It really isn't when you boil it down, but a lot of people still get caught, which is the reason for threads like this, and the various guides to psionics floating around here. Edit: Replacing a Psionic Talent from the above max power point calculation in favor of psychic meditation from the minds eye totals 617 power points, and taking a level adjustment bought off empty vessel will give 632.
Bacris 09-20-05, 07:49 AM	Oh boy.... So, I am trying to allow psionics in the campaign after all... this sounds worse than when a 12 year old tries to explain how he fixed my computer. I have the feeling the first combat I run with a Psion is going to go like this - I suggest learning the rules before you allow it in unless you implicitly trust your players because a) that isn't possible, b) that's for mid-high levels only, c) if you just blindly assume a new psionic player knows what they're doing, they're probably going to do it wrong the first few times anyway
Traevanon 09-20-05, 09:46 AM	Okay, some questions observations from a preliminary examination of the XPH: 1) It apprears that psionic powers are written in a manner that makes them more flexible than standard spells. Example: Burrowing Power (feat). Most spells that work through barriers are blocked by a specific amount of thickness (1 foot of stone or 1 inch of metal I think). The ability to work against hardness with a skill already essential to the character could be crucial to plan against in adventure design. 2) Manifester Level: It appears that manifester level is fairly easy to boost. How high do you figure a 10th level character could go if given a psionic race and the appropriate feats? (Do not use flaws nor Vow of Poverty) 3) Metapsionic Feats: Does applying a metapsionic feat increase the casting time to a full round as it does with regular magic? This is a major limiting factor for spontaneous casters. 4) Sidestep Charge (feat): Why is this a Psionic Feat and not a General Feat? 5) In the art in the book they constantly show Psionic characters shooting rays out of their hands instead of their brain, this bugs me. Moving along... 6) The Psionic powers seem to have very long descriptions (3-4 powers per page) compared to spells in the PHB (5-7 spells per page). This implies that they have nuances that I am going to have to learn individually. I would have liked to get a decent grasp of these classes in a few hours, it appears it will take longer. 7) Limitations and Scope: I would think that Psionic characters, and the psionic game would focus on the things mentioned in the introduction along with my own preconcieved notions of what psionics aught to specialize in and accomplish. These things are divination, enchantment / charm, mental energy as a damaging energy type, stun and unconsciousness effects, telekinesis, astral travel and astral effects, curing mental damage and effects and enhancing their own personal metabolism. However, many powers and abilities do not seem to fit this psionic theme. They are far broader than I would have thought. It is almost as if they thought that a psionic could do just about anything so long as they use the words Psionically or Psionic before the power. In short, they seem to encroach upon other classes domain. Examples: Psionically shapechanging, Psionically creating materials, Psionically creating various other different energy types, Psionic Time powers, Psionically healing (HP, Physical Stat point and regeneration, not mental healing), look at the "Floating" armor enhancement for instance, what does this have to do with mental powers? Remember this is from the perspective of a "first look" at the XPH from a Dungeon Master of a one year old cmapaign. I intend to explore more thoroughly. I am under no illusions that I am wrong about much of this. Even if all I get are flames in response to my very real and sincere questions at least perhaps, experienced Psionic players can take with them a more complete understanding as to why psionics are disallowed in many beginning and intermediate campaigns.
Votan 09-20-05, 10:02 AM	That just sounds so. . . . unfun though. I think of a 32 point buy. Charisma would probably be 10?.. 12 max on such a Int loaded Psion build? Give him the benefit of the doubt and go 14. 20th level Psion can Ego Whip this poor sod with 19PP doing 5d4 charisma damage with a Will Save DC 20+ability mod for half (Will saves are not always the best for caster's manifesters, since they tend to neglect wisdom scores). Average 12.5 charisma.. so even on saves that succeed, 2 good Ego Whips and this blaster-heavy Psion is toast. Well, I'd have to assume that any psion worth his salt would have mind blank up if he even susepcted that he might meet another psion (it lasts one day and automatically blocks mind affecting spells) or, heck, anytime he wasn't carefully conserving power points for another reason. It can be shattered but that gives the "blaster psion" options while you are shattering it. Also note that the description of shatter mind blank seems to exclude the arcane version of the effect . . . Even if the attempt to shatter is quickened, that's a lot of power points and, if makes his save, there are efective replies. Any really high level character (well casters in particular but I'm not against generalizing this) can have options that finish an opponent fast. A maximized energy drain (divine metamagic to maximize or the sudden maximze feat) followed by a quickened energy drain (via metamgic rod) could make the psion somewhat ineffective (as the depletation curve for power points on a level drained psion cripple him fast). There is a counter to this as well but you have to have an item or a cleric. Wail of the Banshee could kill an entire high level party with bad dice rolls. A combination like quickened teleport into the middle of party, wail and contignecy "teleport me away as soon as I cast wail of the banshee" is a high risk but rewarding way to hurt parties. Mind switch can cause murder (literally) in a party if people fail their saves. Ego whip is a nice power but it has strengths and weaknesses. At those levels it is effective against a lot of foes (Dwarf Fighters with 8 CHA anyone?) but so are a lot of powers -- including the directed damage powers that can potentially actually kill something with the resources and games that a 20th level psion can use. In the same sense, I note that nobody seems to consider Reciprocal Gyre against the hyperbuffed psion. If you build a character around these buffs then this is a potentially annoying occurance. In the same sense, if you want to discuss very high level play using only core, Disjunction is awfully core and there is NOTHING that said psion can do to reply after burning so many power points on buffs. Quickened Enervation (also terribly core) could make sure that any annoying residual power points or options go away . . .
Tempest Stormwind 09-20-05, 10:13 AM	Okay, some questions observations from a preliminary examination of the XPH:And I'll attempt to answer them civilly. You've been calm and polite, and I will respond in kind. 1) It apprears that psionic powers are written in a manner that makes them more flexible than standard spells. Example: Burrowing Power (feat). Most spells that work through barriers are blocked by a specific amount of thickness (1 foot of stone or 1 inch of metal I think). The ability to work against hardness with a skill already essential to the character could be crucial to plan against in adventure design. The usual citation of flexibility is augmentation and energy types, which make powers chosen at 1st level still viable at 20th (unlike the sorceror, since -- let's face it -- Sleep is pretty worthless after a while, and sorcs, unlike psions, can swap spells). In this case, though, it's a specific metapsionic effect -- and psicraft is hardly essential. Besides, speaking as one who has played with that feat, I can safely say it's a lot harder to use than you suspect, until you're at a higher level, and by then the spells that are blocked by barriers (like the ones you mentioned) aren't as critical to survival anymore. 2) Manifester Level: It appears that manifester level is fairly easy to boost. How high do you figure a 10th level character could go if given a psionic race and the appropriate feats? (Do not use flaws nor Vow of Poverty) There are only two ways to boost manifester level, period -- Overchannel and Wild Surge, which don't stack. Unlike the hojillion-and-one ways to boost/make up lost caster levels, I might add. The racial sub levels in Races of Eberron sometimes allow a boost in ML for specific types of powers, but only one of those races is psionic (Kalashtar) and that boost only applies for twenty powers in total (the Telepath list) if you are a telepath yourself. But to asnwer your question, a 10th level wilder (of any race) could have a manifester level of 13 (and risk being dazed and losing a LOT of PP), a 10th level psion or psychic warrior could have an ML of 12 (and take damage or expend focus, at the cost of one or two feats), and a 10th level Kalashtar Telepath could hit ML 13 if he manifested a power off the telepath list (at the same effect as the other psions). Note that the psion has to pay more power points to actually use the increased caster levels. If you boost your CL by 4, your fireballs do +4d6 damage for the same third-level slot. This is not true for psionics -- if you boost your ML by 3, your Energy Balls do exactly the same damage they would if you didn't boost it, unless you spend up to 3 more points than you would (basically, spending a higher slot). 3) Metapsionic Feats: Does applying a metapsionic feat increase the casting time to a full round as it does with regular magic? This is a major limiting factor for spontaneous casters. Psionic focus requires a full-round action to recover. At its core, for metapsionics only, you can think of psionic focus as this extra casting time, performed in advance. 4) Sidestep Charge (feat): Why is this a Psionic Feat and not a General Feat?This was fixed in the errata. 5) In the art in the book they constantly show Psionic characters shooting rays out of their hands instead of their brain, this bugs me. Moving along... Stylistic. And there's only two rays out of hands (Dromite monster art and Psionic Disintegrate), and two out of the head (Energy Push and the Third Eye Powerthieve item). Seems balanced. Besides, I know that no matter what source of power I'm using, I'd like to aim it better. You could easily percieve your hand as an extension of yourself. 6) The Psionic powers seem to have very long descriptions (3-4 powers per page) compared to spells in the PHB (5-7 spells per page). This implies that they have nuances that I am going to have to learn individually. I would have liked to get a decent grasp of these classes in a few hours, it appears it will take longer. The nuances you mention are repeated augments. The energy powers all augment the same way and have the same effects based off of which energy type you choose (i.e. Fire always does +1 damage per die, cold always does +1 damage and requires a fort save, etc). This is simply repeated. You will, actually, get a decent grasp of most of the powers in a few hours. I would consider, by the way, 3-4 powers per page to have fewer nuances than 5-7 spells per page. Learning Energy Stun and Energy Push together is easier than Rary's Telepathic Bond and Rope Trick. And there are STILL fewer powers total than sorceror/wizard spells in the PHB. 7) Limitations and Scope: I would think that Psionic characters, and the psionic game would focus on the things mentioned in the introduction along with my own preconcieved notions of what psionics aught to specialize in and accomplish. These things are divination, enchantment / charm, mental energy as a damaging energy type, stun and unconsciousness effects, telekinesis, astral travel and astral effects, curing mental damage and effects and enhancing their own personal metabolism. However, many powers and abilities do not seem to fit this psionic theme. They are far broader than I would have thought. It is almost as if they thought that a psionic could do just about anything so long as they use the words Psionically or Psionic before the power. In short, they seem to encroach upon other classes domain. Examples: Psionically shapechanging, Psionically creating materials, Psionically creating various other different energy types, Psionic Time powers, Psionically healing (HP, Physical Stat point and regeneration, not mental healing), look at the "Floating" armor enhancement for instance, what does this have to do with mental powers? This is a preconception. I do not see magic the way it appears in the D&D books -- the closest they've come for me is the Warlock, and even then it's pretty far off. However, by playing the game, I accept that's how magic works in this game. And if you have a problem with psionics as is, remember you can always change the flavor (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=470229). (By the way, creating materials from your mind is found in Tibetan folklore, controlling your own metabolism could easily lead to HP/physical stat healing, and the Floating armor enhancement is very similar to the iconic levitating yogi if you want to look at it that way.) Remember this is from the perspective of a "first look" at the XPH from a Dungeon Master of a one year old cmapaign. I intend to explore more thoroughly. I am under no illusions that I am wrong about much of this. Even if all I get are flames in response to my very real and sincere questions at least perhaps, experienced Psionic players can take with them a more complete understanding as to why psionics are disallowed in many beginning and intermediate campaigns. We do understand such perspectives; we get them on a nearly weekly basis here. And the response is always the same, because it's true. By the way, you may find The New DM / Player's Guide to Psionics (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=486266) to be helpful here as well.
Votan 09-20-05, 10:13 AM	3) Metapsionic Feats: Does applying a metapsionic feat increase the casting time to a full round as it does with regular magic? This is a major limiting factor for spontaneous casters. Psionic focus is awkwardly placed under the concentration skill. Look it up as it is the major balancing factor of many psionic feats. It typically takes an AoO provoking full round action to bring up and you expend it easily with many psionic feats. There are ways to speed this up (psionic meditation) or to have two using psicrystal feats but it's a major limitation. Also, metapsionics weaken the power at the same time as they require points to go into the metapsionic function instead of just the power. This means that the highest level manifestations can't be used at all (like spells) and lower level ones are weakened from full potential. The strongest of them (Quicken) is also the best way to get a helpless psion with no power points!
drunkenewok 09-20-05, 01:17 PM	Also, consider that most psionics buffs are 1 minute/level, a minor difference from the cleric's 1 round/level seemingly Really? Can you quote statistics on that claim? Like these: Divine1 Psionics2 Psion3 Total 229 287 161 Buff 120 101 58 Inst 30 16 6 Perm 3 1 1 24 hrs 3 1 1 Day/Lev 1 0 0 Hr/Lev 10 11 8 10Min/Lev 22 18 12 Min/Lev 31 18 17 ------------------------------- Rd/Lev 12 28 2 1 rd 0 8 7 Conc 7 4 3 Min/Lev+ 83.3% 64.4% 77.6%Looking at this data it would seem that: Clerics have access to more buff spells than any psionic character Clerics have more buff spells in every duration category compared to a psion Clerics have a higher percentage of long lasting buffs than any psionic character Clerics have FAR more minute/level buffs than any psionic character So, by your own reasoning, the cleric is obviously overpowered, because their buffs can and do last longer than any psion. Consider also that the cleric's buffs, in general, can be applied to any target, while the vast majority of the psion's buffs are self-only. As such, a cleric can act as a force multiplier, greatly increasing the effectiveness of any allied character, while the psion is only able to bring himself on par with a comparable ally. It's not just that inertial armor at level 20 can grant you the effects of +7 full plateActually, at L20, a maximally augmented inertial armor can give you a total +13 to your AC (+4 base, +9 from augmenting) at a cost of 19 power points, the equivalent of a 9th level spell (or 5.5% of your daily pp). Note that this is exactly equivalent to +5 full plate armor. Of course, you can't get additional armor bonus, and it doesn't have any way to get the additional bonuses that armor can get. I realize that hyperbole and exaggeration may be the only way to make your point, but you could at least try for accuracy. My own contribution: If you think that magic is overpowered (as AT obviously does, since he's #5 on the Nerf Magic foundation), you're probably going to think that psionics is overpowered too. Psionics are more balanced, require fewer Rule 0 situations, and are generally more elegant than the Core Magic system. If you think Magic is broken, nothing we say or do will ever convince you that psionics is not broken, so for all our sakes, please stop now. Also, I've seen it argued several times by several different people that because there are core classes that are "less powerful" than a psion at L20, that the psion is broken. By that reasoning, the only way that the psion will ever be "balanced" is if it is strictly less powerful than every core class. While that might make some people happy, it certainly doesn't fit my definition of balanced. If we can point out 3 core classes (cleric, druid, wizard) that are strictly more powerful than any psionic class that puts psionics smack dab in the median power range for the game. If that's not balanced, I don't know what is. Note: The buff counts listed above include spells/powers that have a friendly target and provide some sort of bonus or negate a penalty and generally include the "harmless" descriptor. Considers only cleric spells from the PHB. No splat books, no druid spells, no domain spells Includes all XPH powers from the psion/wilder, psychic warrior, and discipline lists Includes only XPH powers from the psion/wilder list
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-20-05, 01:51 PM	Four energy stuns doesn't mean a whole lot. Even if you pick a good target for it, overcome any SR/PR and stun them four times while dealing 22d6 each time, it only covers a single target each time, and only stuns one round, so its poor against groups of enemies. Its not as though a Wizard prepared for the day couldn't take out a single opponent with a single well placed save or die spell. Actually not quite at high levels. Save or dies aren't the be all, end all of combat at high levels. I've played in high level games and more often than not, creatures are making their saves. You can throw a limited wish in there to get saves down by -7 sure, but that's 300 XP a pop and doing that is a costly tactic and requires an action to boot. I'd rather have DCs in the 40s rather than the low 30s. Energy stun is granting a +10 or so to DC over what a wizard would be tossing, so it's very very powerful at high levels. So we fight two encounters a day 20 minutes apart now? You have no guarentee that those powers last more than one, if they last the full one. It's a dungeon setting. You walk from room to room. If it's long distance, you teleport. Find me a module that has all its encounters 20 minutes or more apart and yet still prevents you from resting between encounters. Generally if an encoutner is more than 20 minutes apart, you can just as easily stretch that time to be a day apart, since they're unrelated encounters. You may be so unfortunate as to be disjoined or dispelled, and you may have more than 20 minutes between fights, no one knows. True, but the psionic actually has a big edge here over the buff cleric. The buff based cleric now loses all his buffs and has to rebuff himself. Even assuming he's trickery domain and wants to burn that domain slot for a time stop, that's still 1 standard action. If the psionic is in an emergency, he fires off temporal acceleration. All of which by the way, if you bothered to ever stat out that which you are complaining about, you'd realize were essential to making it work even close to the way you're drawing it up. This might be true aside from the fact that I've seen it in an actual game. So I know it works the way I'm saying. Offensive Precognition isn't as good as full base attack bonus, inertial armor isn't as good as magical full plate (cause we can put cool abilities on our magical full plate, as you seem to not realize, some of which make all the difference in the world, and full plate still offers +8 armor when dispelled), defensive precognition isn't as good as divine grace, force screen isn't as good as an animate shield, vigor isn't as good as having 100 more hp. Yeah, about at least some of these you're right. But this is the point I keep having difficulty hammering home. It's not any one thing. No one thing is going to cause your eyes to grow out of their sockets and explode. Nothing. Taking things and looking at them point by point just doesn't work. A character isn't a series of non related powers, there is something called synergy that exists. Sure, vigor alone doesn't break the game, offensive prescience alone doesn't break the game, none of these break the game instantly. Put a few together however, and now you've got a problem. The list of buffs that truely give you an edge is very very short. In psionics, I'd give it to iron body, true metabolism, and the metamorphs, and thats about it. Wasting resources piling on buffs rather than playing to the strengths of the class simply isn't an optimized way to go about it. I think buffs are highly overrated on the boards. They look good on paper, but they just aren't all that when the game gets started. True of the buff cleric actually but not the psion. Cleric buffs tend to look great on paper, but unless you allow persistent spell and some divine metacombo or some of the long running broke noncore buffs like spikes, divine favor, divine power and righteous might just aren't that awesome. Everyone talks about divine power being so broken, but really I have yet to have a problem with it. If the cleric has to use an action to cast it or a swift action at least as an 8th level spell, then it's not especially problematic. The advantage of the psion is that a lot of the time he can save time on buffing. He can quicken his buffs easily, in most cases without even taking the quicken feat. His buffs can last 2-3 fights at high levels, possibly a whole dungeon if extended. And when in doubt, temporal acceleration for super buffs. I actually think the reverse. They've in fact very easy to dismiss on paper because they don't blow your eyelids off like the hulking hurler's 100 billion damage or give you an infinite caster level or any of that stuff. There aren't any enormous chunks of it that the DM has to just say no to. There are just some cool possibilities that create exploitable weaknesses and applicable strengths. Right... so what happens with psionic NPCs? They don't have the so called weakness of point attrition. They can just burn their points like there is no tomorrow. How can they possibly be balanced? Cool, now get this. 30 minutes later the fighter is still going, and the slayer has the proverbial big neon "kick me" sign on his back because he's out of PP, and might well have irritated the DM by making a mockery of the previous encounter. He's in for some good old fashioned tough love, while the fighter is ready for whatever is coming around the next corner. Sounds good on paper. Lets see it in a real game. Why not post the stats here? Would be simpler for everyone me thinks. I'm not particularly concerned with your proof for my own purposes, I'm fairly certain I'm more familiar with 3.5 psionics than you are, judging by your proclaimed distaste for them, I'd just like to have some statistics to argue against, because it would mean I wouldn't have to spout theory at you, I could actually look at some numbers. Go ahead, build one, I'd love to see how you'd do it. I'm sure everyone else here would as well. 32 point buy, level 20, standard wealth, progression, items, feats, skills, tactics, the whole nine yards. Lets see what you can do :D Honestly, it's a waste of my time. Your obsessed with picking things apart line by line. You can see a lot of trees but you can't see the forest. I can say this because that's how I was... exactly the same thinking as you have, before I saw the psion in play. And back then, I'd have never believed what I'm saying now. I would have dismissed my own arguments as easily as you are dismissing them now. As I've stated time and time again, on paper, the psion doens't look remarkable. No one peice of that character sheet is going to scream broken. If all your'e looking for is a simple example of a broken build, then you can easily look up the King of Smack, which you've already dismissed because it uses non-core material beyond the XPH. Of course, in the same breath you're telling me how you should feel free to compare psionics with splatbook characters... Hypocrisy at its finest. Posting another build isn't going to prove anything, because you'll think of some crazy reason why it's not that bad. The only proof and end to this debate is to see a psionic character in action in a real game. Because that's all that matters. You can spout out little details and pick things apart line by line all you want. In the end, it's about what happens in a real game, not about theory. I too thought 3.5 psi was balanced, until I saw it with my own eyes. I didn't go into 3.5 psi looking for a reason to label it broke. Like me, I think you need to see a good psionic character played in a real game, and at this point, that's all that's going to work.
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-20-05, 02:05 PM	Really? Can you quote statistics on that claim? Like these: Looking at this data it would seem that: Clerics have access to more buff spells than any psionic character Clerics have more buff spells in every duration category compared to a psion Clerics have a higher percentage of long lasting buffs than any psionic character Clerics have FAR more minute/level buffs than any psionic character Yeah, and stats can be misleading. Many of those buffs are stuff like bull's strength, shield of faith, greater magic weapon, magic vestment, cat's grace, etc. which duplicate magical items. Many are also powers which become trivial at higher levels, like endure elements. Psionic buffs have the advantage of scaling. Each and every one of them scales. So while divine favor is capping out at +3, your offensive precog, inertial armor, defensive prescience, vigor, offensive prescience, etc. are still going. This isn't a numbers game. You can have as many trivial stuff like shield of faith on that you like. But defensive precog gives real bonuses, shield of faith won't even stack with a ring of protection. Heck you can pile on 10,000 useless buffs and it won't make a lick of difference. This is about power, not simply numbers. Almost every buff the psion has scales, this means that he has a huge pool of useful buffs at higher levels. Clerics have the big three: Divine favor, Divine power, and Righteous might. They cast a few like magic vestment and what not to get free magical items, but these aren't extra bonuses, they're just cheap ways of getting bonuses they could get elsewhere. And well if you want to put shield of faith on the same level as defensive precognition, then you're not looking at this clearly and are blinded by overzealous devotion to a cause. Consider also that the cleric's buffs, in general, can be applied to any target, while the vast majority of the psion's buffs are self-only. As such, a cleric can act as a force multiplier, greatly increasing the effectiveness of any allied character, while the psion is only able to bring himself on par with a comparable ally. Actually funny that you bring this up, because this makes the problem worse. Remarkably a buff that can be applied all around doesn't tinker with balance all that much. So long as you can polymorph the fighter, he's getting whatever bonuses the wizard is getting, plus his superior BaB for instance. Self-only buffs are the most dangerous to balance because they're psion only. That means they're stuff only the psionic character gets and nobody else does. And that's where you get imbalances. Actually, at L20, a maximally augmented inertial armor can give you a total +13 to your AC (+4 base, +9 from augmenting) at a cost of 19 power points, the equivalent of a 9th level spell (or 5.5% of your daily pp). Note that this is exactly equivalent to +5 full plate armor. level 20, +3 man level overchannel. Total augment level 24. 23 points - 1 for the base cost of the power gives you 22 augmentation points for +11 AC. +11 + 4 (Base) gives you +15 AC. +7 Full plate armor gives +8 AC base, with a +7 from enhancement for +13. So this is equivalent to +7 full plate, also without any dex cap and reducing of movement of course. Yes, it's true that you don't get any enhancements, but so what? You just buy a +1 padded armor of heavy fortification. The fighter will spend an arm and a leg for his +5 full plate of heavy fort and you'll spend a minimal amount and get the benefits of fortification and you're wearing epic light armor. Try and tell me magic vestment even begins to approach that kind of power...
Vloorshad 09-20-05, 02:17 PM	This might be true aside from the fact that I've seen it in an actual game. So I know it works the way I'm saying. If their grasp of Psionics is equal to your own, I wouldn't trust them if they told me 2 + 2 = 4. In short, post your end-all be-all Psion who can do everything at level 20 or put a sock in it. You've already had all of your contentions soundly defeated, by actually following the rules no less, a few months ago. What makes you think the same boring arguments are going to hold water now?
Scion of Coldshard 09-20-05, 02:43 PM	I just dont believe your play stories have any real bearing arch tyrant. I have seen psionics in the game and I have argued the rules both for and against. All in all psionics is much more balanced than magic is. Also, if anyone says that the psion can even hope to compare with the cleric in just about any way then that person obviously has no real connection with the d&d game. The cleric starts off about the same as a buffed up psion, and then the cleric gets to put some buffs on. You also talk about psionic buffs 'scaling'. By this I guess you mean they can dump a huge number of pp into them to make them a little better (yes, most take large numbers of pp to do very little extra). But then you ignore that the cleric versions tend to scale for free. When the cleric casts a greater magic weapon to turn a weapon into +5 it costs him a 3rd level slot. If the psion wants to do the same it takes a feat and 17pp. If the cleric wants to make someones armor into +5 it takes him a 3rd level slot. What does the psion do? All of this allows people to spend their money in different ways, hence they are even more effective than before. The psion does not get that option. Divine favor to get a +3 luck bonus on attack and damage rolls? Merely a 1st level spell slot, or 2nd if you want to extend it. For the psion to get the equivalent bonus? Must know offensive precognition and offensive prescience (two slots, ouch ;/ ). Must spend 2 standard actions to put them up. Must spend 7pp on offensive precognition (+3 insight bonus to attack rolls) and 4pp on offensive prescience (+3 insight bonus to damage rolls). But at least it lasts longer and they have the 'option' of making it better. Personally? I'd rather have the cleric version. It is 'way' cheaper in basically every way. The only advantages for the psion is slightly longer duration (still generally 1 battle abilities, but sometimes the psionic ones can be stretched to two) and the ability to dump 'ton's of resources into them to make them higher bonuses. But still, a single action with a single first level slot (1pp equivalent) vs 2 standard action, 2 power known slots, and 11pp to get the same equivalent benefit. Now tell me, out of those two for this type of benefit, who has the advantage? And the list goes on. Just about everything the psion can do the cleric can do better, and have more options, and be all around a better class to have in a pinch. If anything, the psion needs a 'boost'. Just to be able to hope to compare with several classes from the core.
RadicalTaoist 09-20-05, 03:07 PM	I'd rather have DCs in the 40s rather than the low 30s. Energy stun is granting a +10 or so to DC over what a wizard would be tossing, so it's very very powerful at high levels. It's a lovely DC...but all you do is stun. You spend your pp on that Energy Stun. I'll take a Destruction or a Heightened Phantasmal Killer or an Otto's Irresistable Dance, thank you very much. It's a dungeon setting. You walk from room to room. If it's long distance, you teleport. Find me a module that has all its encounters 20 minutes or more apart and yet still prevents you from resting between encounters. I believe some of the Eberron ones run like that (WotVB?). Anyways, that does not change the fact that to unbalance the psion in that way, you have to weight the campaign's encounters and it still unbalances other classes far more. If I held an extremely close quarters dungeon campaign where it was virtually impossible to get line of sight (messing up ranged combat and spellcasting), all the enemy casters liked to summon hordes of weak creatures, and you couldn't fit anything bigger than Large into a corridor, the barb and fighter would own all day long. Doesn't make them overpowered. Why? It's a situational advantage due to space. You are talking about a situational advantage due to time. True, but the psionic actually has a big edge here over the buff cleric. The buff based cleric now loses all his buffs and has to rebuff himself. Even assuming he's trickery domain and wants to burn that domain slot for a time stop, that's still 1 standard action. If the psionic is in an emergency, he fires off temporal acceleration. That's nice. Overpowered? With all the DMG items the cleric will be harder to dispel than the psion even with Dispelling Buffer. And he has more spell slots to spend on buffing, and longer buffing endurance. And needs at most 3 to the psion's +6. So the psion is better at upping the throttle and speeding it up, as everyone knows. Which means he loses yet more when he's dispelled the second time, whereas the cleric is still just annoyed. This might be true aside from the fact that I've seen it in an actual game. So I know it works the way I'm saying. There we go: Your buddy was cheating, or the game was deliberately weighted towards the psion in an obscure way that didn't benefit the other casters. We've added up the pps, the feats, the works. There is no other explanation. Put a few together however, and now you've got a problem. Very much so. Except when you don't have a problem. True of the buff cleric actually but not the psion. Cleric buffs tend to look great on paper, but unless you allow persistent spell and some divine metacombo or some of the long running broke noncore buffs like spikes, divine favor, divine power and righteous might just aren't that awesome. Everyone talks about divine power being so broken, but really I have yet to have a problem with it. If the cleric has to use an action to cast it or a swift action at least as an 8th level spell, then it's not especially problematic. I disagree with you both: I feel DH is underestimating buffs, and I feel you are way underestimating cleric buffs. What psionic power grants you 1 extra attack (melee or ranged) out of a full attack that stacks with haste, a freely scaling (no need for augments) +1 to attack bonus every 4 levels that stacks with practically everything including insight bonuses, freely scaling temporary HP? The closest psions get is metamorphosis. Metamorphosis likely won't give you an extra ranged attack, you lose your normal HP when the power's temp HP goes away like a barb's rage, and the magic equivalent, Polymorph, can be stacked on top of the Divine Power. Righteous Might is like casting a low augmented Biofeedback and nonaugmented Expansion as a single standard action. So what if the Cleric is slower? He doesn't need to be faster! All he really needs in a few spells! The advantage of the psion is that a lot of the time he can save time on buffing. He can quicken his buffs easily, in most cases without even taking the quicken feat. His buffs can last 2-3 fights at high levels, possibly a whole dungeon if extended. And when in doubt, temporal acceleration for super buffs. That's nice. His weakness has been stated numerous times. Instead of repeating the obvious, I'll ask you to list the weaknesses for me. You've been listening, right? Right... so what happens with psionic NPCs? They don't have the so called weakness of point attrition. They can just burn their points like there is no tomorrow. How can they possibly be balanced? Easy. You trick them into blowing their jollies on illusions, summoned monsters, and globes of invulnerability. They run dry in 6 rounds. You then have your merciless way with them. I've done it before. Honestly, it's a waste of my time. Your obsessed with picking things apart line by line. What doesn't stand is easily picked apart. I can say this because that's how I was... exactly the same thinking as you have, before I saw the psion in play. And back then, I'd have never believed what I'm saying now. I would have dismissed my own arguments as easily as you are dismissing them now. As I've stated time and time again, on paper, the psion doens't look remarkable. No one peice of that character sheet is going to scream broken. In which case I repeat either your boy was playing shady or the DM felt it was "Be Generous to the Psion Day!". There is simply no other explanation. Take it from my boy Sherlock Holmes: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, howsoever improbably, must be the truth. If all your'e looking for is a simple example of a broken build, then you can easily look up the King of Smack, which you've already dismissed because it uses non-core material beyond the XPH. Of course, in the same breath you're telling me how you should feel free to compare psionics with splatbook characters... Hypocrisy at its finest. Dude, the KoS is even weaker than normal psions at efficiency. He's a one-trick pony. He's easier to dispel, easier to outlast, and 67% of his brokenness has nothing to do with the XPH. Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike are not XPH. You remove those two feats, the KoS is nowhere near broken. At least list something semi-overpowered like the Multipouncers. Really. Posting another build isn't going to prove anything, because you'll think of some crazy reason why it's not that bad.OK, now I'll be real generous. Would you like me to build it for you? The only proof and end to this debate is to see a psionic character in action in a real game. We have. I've been that psionic character. I've rocked and I've been rocked. I've discovered enemies I was useless against, and enemies that couldn't touch me. Final Verdict? Good...BIJNTU
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-20-05, 03:21 PM	All in all psionics is much more balanced than magic is. On a whole, probably. But the problems with psionics are more game abusable than the problems with magic, which tend to get eliminated outright or totally break the game in some kind of crazy infinite power combo. When the cleric casts a greater magic weapon to turn a weapon into +5 it costs him a 3rd level slot. Well, this is nothing more than a free magical item. Convenient? Sure. But not earth shattering. It saves a cleric money. If the cleric wants to make someones armor into +5 it takes him a 3rd level slot. What does the psion do? Inertial armor to make himself +7 full plate with no dex cap and no movement penalty. Quite a bit better. It doesn't transfer to others, but so what? Divine favor to get a +3 luck bonus on attack and damage rolls? Merely a 1st level spell slot, or 2nd if you want to extend it. A good spell no doubt, but it's still only one spell. For the psion to get the equivalent bonus? Must know offensive precognition and offensive prescience (two slots, ouch ;/ ). Must spend 2 standard actions to put them up. Must spend 7pp on offensive precognition (+3 insight bonus to attack rolls) and 4pp on offensive prescience (+3 insight bonus to damage rolls). Well, in reality, the psion is going to be having a lot bigger than a +3 bonus because he's manifesting them at 20th level+. Also unlike divine favor, his buffs last 20 minutes, compared to the cleric's divine favor which is gone in a single round. Personally? I'd rather have the cleric version. It is 'way' cheaper in basically every way. When you have over 400 power points, screw cheap and take powerful. Worrying over what's "cheaper" is like the 20th level wizard throwing around nothing but magic missiles and scorching rays because they've got the best damage to spell slot ratio. This game is about killing your enemy before they kill you. While it may be more cost efficient to use weaker spells, the enemy is certainly fighting back and I'll take the option that will help me kill the enemy better. The only advantages for the psion is slightly longer duration (still generally 1 battle abilities, but sometimes the psionic ones can be stretched to two) and the ability to dump 'ton's of resources into them to make them higher bonuses. Tons of resources just isn't nearly as big as you think it is. Look, it's 23 pp to manifest an overchanneled power. Lets say 2 of those PP goes into an extend power, so that's 21 PP to play with. We now have buffs that last 40 minutes. That's easily long enough to last the entire dungeon. So at the cost of say 92 PP, less than 25% of my total PP, I've got 4 buffs for the entire dungeon adventure. Top that off with a dispelling buffer and I'll be nearly impossible to dispel and no actions are wasted during combat at all, leaving my combat actions free to manifest other stuff. Meanwhile the cleric is wasting actions casting his divine power, righteous might, and divine favor combo, or wasting high level spell slots quickening them or buffing while in time stop. And the list goes on. Just about everything the psion can do the cleric can do better, and have more options, and be all around a better class to have in a pinch. If by "better" you mean efficiently but with less power. But if we use that logic, the warlock is the most powerful of all, because he can keep throwing eldritch blasts as long as he wants. Long after the cleric has burned through his spells and the psion has run out of PP, the eldritch blasts are still flying. The warlock's efficiency is in fact infinitely greater than any class we've talked about here. So apparently the warlock must be the most broken class ever in your eyes? Saving spell slots doesn't help you if you're dead. You can't take them with you.
Vloorshad 09-20-05, 03:32 PM	Hey, AT, I have a question for you: how can you objectively and honestly analyze anything in Psionics as to whether it's broken or not if you already have the preconceived notion that Magic must be nerfed? That aside, why don't you post something new? I'm about to start digging out everyone's old posts in response to your tired old argument that destroyed it months ago. So, here's a simple idea: post this character you claim can do it all, or let one of us try to construct such a thing, and we'll see where that goes. As for your little dungeon crawl problems, that's a situational problem and nothing more. RadicalTaoist has already addressed the issue quite nicely. Will you gloss that sound argument over like you do everything else?
Scion of Coldshard 09-20-05, 03:40 PM	But the problems with psionics are more game abusable than the problems with magic, which tend to get eliminated outright or totally break the game in some kind of crazy infinite power combo. You have stated this multiple times, and yet still have not come anywhere near proving it. In fact, the 'opposite' has been shown in multiple other threads. Easy example? Illusions. Much more versitile than any psion, much easier to abuse. Huge in ability, low in cost. But if you are going to ignore the massive problems with magic and focus on any percieved problem in psionics then your view is obviously going to be highly inaccurate. Well, this is nothing more than a free magical item. Convenient? Sure. But not earth shattering. It saves a cleric money. It saves the whole party money. But sure, it is just a simple buff. Inertial armor to make himself +7 full plate with no dex cap and no movement penalty. Quite a bit better. It doesn't transfer to others, but so what? Ok, so let me get this straight. The spell that can get you something equivalent to several hundred thousand gp for each person in the party is not earth shattering. But the item which can save about 50k for only a single party member 'and' uses up way more resources is????? I dont understand your logic at all. A good spell no doubt, but it's still only one spell. But it is a good representative example. It costs the psion much more to get an equivalent benefit. In return they can spend 'even more' resources to get a better benefit. I'd rather have the first than the second personally. Well, in reality, the psion is going to be having a lot bigger than a +3 bonus because he's manifesting them at 20th level+. Also unlike divine favor, his buffs last 20 minutes, compared to the cleric's divine favor which is gone in a single round. And again we cannot take you seriously. The sheer cost just to break even is staggering. To get ahead the cost is astronomical compared to the bonus granted. But yes, the duration is 20 minutes vs 1 minute (not one round as you say). So it lasts 20x longer. Of course the psions took 2x as long to put up, used up a large percentage of his powers known slots, and took 11x the amount of equivalent spell/power resources. Apparently you think everyone has infinite pp. I am afraid that is simply not true. The cleric doesnt care about his first level slot at this point, it is so far down his chain of effects that it is silly. 11pp however is a hit for a psion of even level 20 being nearly 3% of his daily value (if he has 400pp) When you have over 400 power points, screw cheap and take powerful. Again, you have absolutely no feel for stamina. Apparently it is true that in your games there is only one battle a day so everyone can use up all of their resources as fast as possible. In a real d&d game following the rules and guidelines however a psion which did that would be useless at the end of encounter one, or halfway through encounter two. He is dead weight. He doesnt do anything. The party wonders why they even bring him along. Worrying over what's "cheaper" is like the 20th level wizard throwing around nothing but magic missiles and scorching rays because they've got the best damage to spell slot ratio. But of course that is the point. The wizard at 20th level cares much more about his higher level slots than his lower level slots. But then you are having the psion throw around nothing but higher level slots. He will burn out so fast it isnt even funny, and without an incredibly good setup most of the effects will be wasted. Also, you seem to assume that every psion will have overchannel and talented. This is not the case. They are good feats yes, but not everyone will take them. Do you even know how long it takes to search? Even just searching the important parts, which means missing a lot of things, can take up 'hours' in a decent sized dungeon. Trying to be stealthy takes up extra time as well. Burning pp for little things here and there to help out the party uses up resources. I just cant go on with this post ;/ there are just too many things you are saying which are either completely illogical or are so such tortured logic that it hurts me just trying to figure out what you might mean. Maybe someone else can take over a bit.. gah
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-20-05, 03:46 PM	It's a lovely DC...but all you do is stun. You spend your pp on that Energy Stun. I'll take a Destruction or a Heightened Phantasmal Killer or an Otto's Irresistable Dance, thank you very much. And those will likely fizzle out as your opponents make their saves, with the exception of the dance, which requires you to try to get into melee combat, a risky proposition to say the least and a good way to get a wizard (who doesn't have the benefit of vigor) killed. I believe some of the Eberron ones run like that (WotVB?). Anyways, that does not change the fact that to unbalance the psion in that way, you have to weight the campaign's encounters and it still unbalances other classes far more. If I held an extremely close quarters dungeon campaign where it was virtually impossible to get line of sight (messing up ranged combat and spellcasting), all the enemy casters liked to summon hordes of weak creatures, and you couldn't fit anything bigger than Large into a corridor, the barb and fighter would own all day long. Doesn't make them overpowered. Why? It's a situational advantage due to space. You are talking about a situational advantage due to time. It's not situational, it's the common situation in D&D. Having some kind of structure (a dungeon, a sacred grove, a labyrinth, a temple) is the basic format of D&D. That's how the game is balanced. It's not expected that you've got some weird 20 minute gap between encounters. Adventuring is room to room. That's nice. Overpowered? With all the DMG items the cleric will be harder to dispel than the psion even with Dispelling Buffer. And he has more spell slots to spend on buffing, and longer buffing endurance. And needs at most 3 to the psion's +6. So the psion is better at upping the throttle and speeding it up, as everyone knows. Which means he loses yet more when he's dispelled the second time, whereas the cleric is still just annoyed. Well, first dispelling is a poor proposition at best. It isn't guaranteed to work and wastes rounds where you aren't killing anything. A targetted dispel targets 1 person, and has zero chance of killing something. With dispelling buffer and overchannel you're looking at the equivalent of DC 11 + 23 + 5 = 39 on dispelling checks. A 20th level caster succeeds 10% of the time on any given buff. Wow, a 10% chance... to be honest, I'm not all that worried about dispelling unless I'm facing off against a DM with a loaded d20. There we go: Your buddy was cheating, or the game was deliberately weighted towards the psion in an obscure way that didn't benefit the other casters. We've added up the pps, the feats, the works. There is no other explanation. Here's another explanation: maybe you're wrong about psionics being balanced. I disagree with you both: I feel DH is underestimating buffs, and I feel you are way underestimating cleric buffs. What psionic power grants you 1 extra attack (melee or ranged) out of a full attack that stacks with haste, a freely scaling (no need for augments) +1 to attack bonus every 4 levels that stacks with practically everything including insight bonuses, freely scaling temporary HP? Nice way of describing divine power that makes it sound crazy powerful. Of course the "extra attack" that you're getting is at a really low BaB and is an automatic miss, the +1 attack bonus while good is still not as good as +1 per 3 levels (offensive prescience), and the temporary HP are nothing compared to vigor. So what if the Cleric is slower? He doesn't need to be faster! All he really needs in a few spells! This is clearly a theory argument that is laughable in a real game. So what if he's slower? So what if you're burning 2 actions doing nothing at the start of every combat? The enemies are real honorable and all and will just stand there and let you buff yourself at the start of combat. Speed is everything. If you have to waste 2-3 actions buffing, you are losing that combat. If you want to talk about inefficiency, that's it right there. Actions are far more valuable resources than spell slots. Easy. You trick them into blowing their jollies on illusions, summoned monsters, and globes of invulnerability. They run dry in 6 rounds. You then have your merciless way with them. True seeing. And as for the rest, the psion doesn't have to burn his powers if he doesn't want to. So it's not like some summoned orc is going to draw the full wrath of his nova onslaught unless the psion player is a moron. This isn't a guy with a readied action to nova at the first sign of danger, but rather an intelligent thoughtful player who can weigh the costs. Also globe of invulnerability creates a faintly shimmering sphere that the psion can see. So if he sees that, he just resorts to using buffs or whatever. Also globe of invulneraiblity is a 1 round/level duration, meaning the enemy has to win initiative to cast it. None of those are very good counters and easily beaten by any psion with half a brain. I'm not sure where you get the misconception that playing a psion who can go nova means you have to go nova whenever you see a dire rat. I'm not sure at what point psion becomes synonymous with "cosmically powered dumbass", but I assure you it isn't true. Perhaps in your games psions fall for newbie tricks like this, but a good psion won't. OK, now I'll be real generous. Would you like me to build it for you? Sure if you'd like to build something, go ahead. As for the whole "be generous to the psion" thing... all I can really say is that it happens to be quite the opposite. Unless the DM directly singles the psion character out, targetting his specific rare weaknesses, he ends up dominating. Sure, high level psions are not unbeatable you can deliberately hose them, as you can any class. All it takes is a few beholders with antimagic along with some big grapplers. Hit em with AMF then grapple them to death. But if you put a psion in normal games that don't go out of their way to screw him, then he will easily dominate over anything other than wizards, clerics and druids. Even against those he will be comparable if not superior.
Vloorshad 09-20-05, 03:51 PM	I just cant go on with this post ;/ there are just too many things you are saying which are either completely illogical or are so such tortured logic that it hurts me just trying to figure out what you might mean. Maybe someone else can take over a bit.. gah The next chance I get, I'm going to go digging around in this thread and the original Myth thread and just repost replies to his posts. He's using the same tired arguments, so the posts that destroyed them them should do just fine now. :D
Scion of Coldshard 09-20-05, 04:00 PM	I was going to reply again but really, I dont feel that it is worth my effort. Apparantly we are talking about a psion with infinite pp, unlimted time, can rest whenver he likes, knows every power, has incredibly high stats (so that the base comparison of things like BAB and hp can be washed over), knows everything that is about to happen, and has the best tactical situation possible. Vs everyone else who apparently walks around blind and put their lowest stat into their primary stat slot. It doesnt matter what they do, they always roll 1's on their dice anyway. So yes, in that situation the psion is a god. In fact, if the gods also are in the 'everyone else' category then he is better than the gods. The whole universe trembles from the very mention of this psion, and he knows it because he knows everything.
drunkenewok 09-20-05, 05:44 PM	Does anyone else feel like you're talking to a brick wall? It's as if the only feasible arguments that can be made are only valid when they are against psionics: It's not a numbers game - But when the numbers serve my purpose, psionics are broken In game experience doesn't matter - Except when it's my in-game experience, even if I can't prove with a build or specific details that the guy in my example wasn't cheating Obviously broken effects or combos don't matter - unless they're psionic powers, which means psionics as a whole are broken Examples of broken builds don't matter - unless they include a psionic class, which means psionics are broken Character weaknesses don't actually make a character weaker - unless it's a core character and can be used to prove how uber psionics are The fact that a character has to pick and choose abilities doesn't matter - except when that character is a psion, because they can obviously do everything You say that we're not listening to your points, but you are utterly ignoring every one of ours. You've presented dozens of hypothetical cases of "X Combo" + "Y Combo" + "Z Combo" being uber beyond belief, but you haven't presented any cases of a character actually using those abilities in the context of a game. You claim that the synergy of all the various psionic powers is what makes them uber beyond belief, but you haven't demonstrated that any individual character can actually take advantage of that synergy. In effect, your argument is akin to saying that a L20 character who can fight as well as a L20 fighter, cast spells like a L20 wizard, buff like a L20 cleric, and sneak attack and skill monkey like a L20 rogue is broken. Which it is, but that doesn't mean it's possible under the rules. You can rant and rave about the supposed broken-ness, but without some sort of example, we're basically left to taking your word for it. Of course, if it's not worth your time to actually present a real example, then why are you spending the time and energy arguing with us in the first place? It's not situational, it's the common situation in D&D. Having some kind of structure (a dungeon, a sacred grove, a labyrinth, a temple) is the basic format of D&D. That's how the game is balanced. It's not expected that you've got some weird 20 minute gap between encounters. Adventuring is room to room.It is situational. When I DM, 1 min/level buffs tend to last one encounter, maybe two IF the PCs really make an effort to rush from point A to point B. Most people aren't in a 100% sprint from room-to-room in a crazy James-Bond-esque rush to defeat everything in sight. Min/Level buffs certainly don't last for more than 2 encounters. If the PCs take time to search a room, strip the corpses of their foes, take stock of injuries, or are just walking someplace instead of making an effort to hurry, time goes by. If your DM glosses over such things, that might be one reason why your game experience might have been so different from everyone else's. In fact, the only reason for your party to rush through all that is if you have 1 min/level buffs up, and want to get to the next encounter while they're still running. As for psion buffs being imbalancing specifically because they can't be used on other characters, I fail to fully follow your logic. Yes, a wizard casting a buff on a fighter makes the fighter as much more power than the wizard casting it on himself. So the fighter + wizard is better than the fighter alone. Compare that to a psion, who can buff himself, but can't buff the fighter. A self-only buff prevents any sort of synergy, which hurts the party as a whole. Assuming that the buffs are equal in every way, the psion's buffs are effectively less useful. To put it in abstract mathematical terms, assume that combat-wise, the psion and wizard are both 3 while the fighter is a 10. With a buff, the psion can boost himself to 9 (+6). With another buff, the wizard can boost himself to 8 (+5) or boost the fighter to 15 (also +5). Now, according to your perspective, the psion is broken because his buffs are better (+6 vs +5). But consider that the total effectiveness of psion + fighter is only 19, while wizard + fighter is 23. Unless you're playing wargames or gladiatorial combat, that puts the psion-based team at a distinct disadvantage. The only way the psion would be truly unbalancing would be if his buffs were nearly double the effectiveness of the wizard's, and his buffs must continue increasing as the party size grows in order to maintain parity. In your example of a psion using overchannel to augment Inertial Armor to 23 pp and adding +1 greater fortification padded armor. Consider that the psion must spend 1 feat (8% of all his feats), 1 power known (3% of all powers known), 23 pps (3-5% of his daily pp total), 5d8 hp (30% of his daily hp), and 36,000gp (5% of his total gp) to do it. Compare that to the 13% of his gp that a fighter has to spend getting +5 greater fortification full plate. I'll grant that the psion has the edge in statistics, but the costs are not insignificant, and if you totally ignore the costs, you miss the full picture. I get the impression that the relative costs don't really figure into many of your arguments. The simple fact of the matter is that for any psion build you can propose, it is possible to build a character, using only core mechanics, that can utterly destroy that psion. The same is not necessarily true in the converse. Of course, anything I say is bound to be completely discounted as the inane drivel of an awe-struck child obsessed with defending something that is so obviously broken that I must be daft to even consider arguing by using actual logic against random excoriations and dicta from the wise lips of the ArchTyrant. So why bother?
RadicalTaoist 09-20-05, 06:05 PM	And those will likely fizzle out as your opponents make their saves, with the exception of the dance, which requires you to try to get into melee combat, a risky proposition to say the least and a good way to get a wizard (who doesn't have the benefit of vigor) killed.P.K. and it's upgrade, Weird, require a Fort and Will save. Destruction deals 10d6 damage on a failed save. Those are two examples out of many. Would you like me to start listing them? It's not situational, it's the common situation in D&D. Having some kind of structure (a dungeon, a sacred grove, a labyrinth, a temple) is the basic format of D&D. That's how the game is balanced. It's not expected that you've got some weird 20 minute gap between encounters. Adventuring is room to room. A common situation, but not the only one. If I argued that Stone Shape and the equivalent spells for ice/sand/whatever were the most powerful spells in the game, you'd call me an idiot. But that doesn't change the fact that you could use them to cause cave ins and potentially annihilate a number of encounters, easily. Situational advantages, unless practically omnipresent (like depending on breathing air, for example), are just that - situational. A common fantasy archetype is the last stand, where the heroes sit at this fortress and hold off foes who come in waves for minutes, hours, possibly days on end. I don't use this to argue the psion is overpowered even though he fares incredibly poorly in such a game compared to other classes. It also seems to me you must have trap-free dungeons. Well, first dispelling is a poor proposition at best. It isn't guaranteed to work and wastes rounds where you aren't killing anything. A targetted dispel targets 1 person, and has zero chance of killing something. With dispelling buffer and overchannel you're looking at the equivalent of DC 11 + 23 + 5 = 39 on dispelling checks. A 20th level caster succeeds 10% of the time on any given buff. Wow, a 10% chance... to be honest, I'm not all that worried about dispelling unless I'm facing off against a DM with a loaded d20. One: you do realize a cleric can get over 40 on said checks, right? Two: That's not your IS build of doom, mind you. And a 20th level example. Three: I'm being nice and pretending MDJ doesn't exist. Four: DB costs a feat unless your a Kineticist. Here's another explanation: maybe you're wrong about psionics being balanced. Maybe I am, but if that's the case I have yet to see the arguments pointing it out. Nice way of describing divine power that makes it sound crazy powerful. Of course the "extra attack" that you're getting is at a really low BaB and is an automatic miss, the +1 attack bonus while good is still not as good as +1 per 3 levels (offensive prescience), and the temporary HP are nothing compared to vigor. Thanks. The opposite of course, is describing it likes it's useless. That 'automatic miss' is often made at attack bonuses of +20 with everything added up. It is also another crit chance. The offensive precognition you pay for must be augmented to 10 power points to have the same effect. Add in vigor. You're spending twice the spell level equivalent just to get those. That you can pay even more to get even more is nice....but not terrifying. This is clearly a theory argument that is laughable in a real game. So what if he's slower? So what if you're burning 2 actions doing nothing at the start of every combat? The enemies are real honorable and all and will just stand there and let you buff yourself at the start of combat. Usually buying time is what allies (especially the planar variety, which the psion never sees) are for. And what do I get for just a 1 round delay? Quite a bit. Speed is everything. If you have to waste 2-3 actions buffing, you are losing that combat. If you want to talk about inefficiency, that's it right there. Actions are far more valuable resources than spell slots. Even more valuable than actions are the ability to deny the actions of others. To stun/paralyze them by the half dozen with Holy Word & Co. To trap them with Evard's Black Tentacles and Bigby's Crushing Hand. To fool them with illusions, to confound them with summons packing crazy spell-like abilities, to disjoin the buffs they put resources up using, to spell turn what they cast, reduce them to fools in Mind Fog, trap them with Forcecage, stop them with whatever. That's how the wizard and cleric buys time. And the psion is astonishingly powerful when he uses similar tactics. Schism + Co-Opt Concentration + Telekinetic Manuver against enemy casters is lovely, and easier than an uber buff combo. Ego Whips to render the big nasties comatose, ACs to slow down, Energy Wall+Energy Conversion+Schism to blast while I buff. In fact, I'd start a lot of combats like that, and then take my time buffing, and not bother to buff past 2/3 of my ML. Unnecessary to go all out. True seeing. I'll count that on our buff list when we build this puppy. And as for the rest, the psion doesn't have to burn his powers if he doesn't want to. So it's not like some summoned orc is going to draw the full wrath of his nova onslaught unless the psion player is a moron. And when that's a BCrushing Hand in his face, you bet he'll spend resources to escape it. And when there's a summoned outsider (one of those devils, I like their movement, SR, and spell-likes) waiting for him, you bet the psion will blow resources in time to keep it off him. This isn't a guy with a readied action to nova at the first sign of danger, but rather an intelligent thoughtful player who can weigh the costs. Then for heaven's sake, why is he bothering to nova? You only need to really nova when the EL is 3 above your encounter level. Otherwise, 2/3 of your ML is more than enough to get you through most of what you will face. Also globe of invulnerability creates a faintly shimmering sphere that the psion can see. So if he sees that, he just resorts to using buffs or whatever. Also globe of invulneraiblity is a 1 round/level duration, meaning the enemy has to win initiative to cast it. Spell Turning does not. GoI is low enough to be quickened regularly, or quickened easily through a rod. And buffs mean you are either dispel-vulnerable, or very high level, meaning MDJ. None of those are very good counters and easily beaten by any psion with half a brain. I'm not sure where you get the misconception that playing a psion who can go nova means you have to go nova whenever you see a dire rat. I'm not sure at what point psion becomes synonymous with "cosmically powered dumbass", but I assure you it isn't true. Perhaps in your games psions fall for newbie tricks like this, but a good psion won't. I'm afraid I was mistaking your argument for the "why not always nova then teleport away" argument I heard in DH's nova thread. Unless you are facing something really really strong, or your party's luck went really really bad, it is a very suboptimal tactic. Sure if you'd like to build something, go ahead. Alright, do you want to take a stab at the Illithid Slayer you were complaining about long ago, or just an Egoist20? What powers and feats do you feel are necessary? As for the whole "be generous to the psion" thing... all I can really say is that it happens to be quite the opposite. Unless the DM directly singles the psion character out, targetting his specific rare weaknesses, he ends up dominating. Then I'm positive you're dude was up to something. Sure, high level psions are not unbeatable you can deliberately hose them, as you can any class. All it takes is a few beholders with antimagic along with some big grapplers. Hit em with AMF then grapple them to death. But if you put a psion in normal games that don't go out of their way to screw him, then he will easily dominate over anything other than wizards, clerics and druids. Even against those he will be comparable if not superior. I'm pretty sure I can hold my own against a psion with a sorceror. The unfortunate price is that I'll have to use Contingency to make up for Quicken, which is painful, but that's kinda the problem with Sorcs and their lack of quicken. Druids and Clerics I'll hold over Psions any day of the week, any hour of the day. Wizards are, I'll admit, harder to optimize than Psions but have so much more potential power that they are a cut above. And even with all that said, I'd rather have a Psychic Warrior or Barb doing frontline. And as a party member, there are times I would rather have a bard in the party than a psion.
drunkenewok 09-20-05, 07:02 PM	But if you put a psion in normal games that don't go out of their way to screw him, then he will easily dominate over anything other than wizards, clerics and druids.Remind me again why this make a psion unbalanced and broken? There are at least three core classes that are typically superior to a psion given players of comparable skill. If we consider the class structure as a standardized test hierarchy, that makes the psion about a 66th percentile class. It's better than 2/3 of the core classes, and typically worse than 1/3. In this context, the psion is merely average, which is hardly grounds for throwing it out based on it's uber-ness. If the psion were clearly superior in all respects to every class, then yes, you'd have a case for the psion being unbalanced. But if you expect the psion to be worse than every core class, then a) no one would ever play a psion, and b) WotC wouldn't make any money selling the XPH, because no one would buy it. There we go: Your buddy was cheating, or the game was deliberately weighted towards the psion in an obscure way that didn't benefit the other casters. We've added up the pps, the feats, the works. There is no other explanation.Here's another explanation: maybe you're wrong about psionics being balanced.Well, that would be a valid explanation if you can demonstrate a build that has all the abilities you claim to be present following the rules presented in the XPH. Until you do so, we only have your word that this took place, and you'll have to forgive me if I don't consider you the most unbiased observer. Now, to compare a casting of Divine Power vs a manifestion of Offensive Precognition: L20 Cleric Divine Power - L4 spell slot as Cleric L20 - +5 attack, +6 enhancement bonus to strength, +20 temporary hps Total equivalent cost: 7pp, 1 standard action L20 Psion Offensive Precognition - 7pp - +3 attack Animal Affinity - 3pp - +4 enhancement to strength Vigor - 4pp - +20 temporary hps Total costs: 14 pp and 3 standard actions L20 Psion (Nova) Temporal Acceleration - 15pp - (action saving) Offensive Precognition - 22pp - +8 attack Animal Affinity - 8pp - +4 to Str and Con (which gives +40 temporary hps) Vigor - 23pp - +115 temporary hps Total cost: 65pp and 1 standard action, 1 swift action L10/L10 Cleric/(PoorBAB/Full ML PrC) Divine Power - L4 slot - +8 attack, +6 to Str, +20 temporary hps Heal - L6 slot - 200hp Total equivalent cost: 18 pp, 2 standard actionsYou did argue earlier that actions are far more precious than a few powers known, but you're basically arguing that effectively tripling (or more) the cost for a psion to accomplish something a cleric can do in about the same amount of time makes the psion broken. Right? Also consider that the Psion needs at least one feat (Overchannel) to pull this off, and three (+Talented and Psionic Meditation) if he doesn't want to eat into his temp hp reserve by an average of 45 points. Given that the psion started out at a disadvantage (by an average of 40hp and 2-5 attack bonus), he's still less capable than the cleric. Note especially that the psion in the Nova example above has already spent at least 10% of his daily pp, while the cleric has spent only 2 of his 50+ spell slots.
Traevanon 09-20-05, 10:27 PM	Thank you Tempest for your patient reply. After reading the link you provided it seems that I asked just about everything that thread already answers. I think the answer to my "flavor" objections may be to allow only about half of the Psionic disciplines at first. There are some that seem to me to be more "pure" psionic than others. I think I'll choose Telepaths, Seers and Psychic Warriors and possibly later expand the list.
Bacris 09-20-05, 10:34 PM	It's as if the only feasible arguments that can be made are only valid when they are against psionics: It's not a numbers game - But when the numbers serve my purpose, psionics are broken In game experience doesn't matter - Except when it's my in-game experience, even if I can't prove with a build or specific details that the guy in my example wasn't cheating Obviously broken effects or combos don't matter - unless they're psionic powers, which means psionics as a whole are broken Examples of broken builds don't matter - unless they include a psionic class, which means psionics are broken Character weaknesses don't actually make a character weaker - unless it's a core character and can be used to prove how uber psionics are The fact that a character has to pick and choose abilities doesn't matter - except when that character is a psion, because they can obviously do everything I think that sums up the way AT has been posting pretty well.
Sir Elton 09-20-05, 11:47 PM	Here's another explanation: maybe you're wrong about psionics being balanced. Nope. No other explanation.
Sir Elton 09-20-05, 11:57 PM	It's as if the only feasible arguments that can be made are only valid when they are against psionics: It's not a numbers game - But when the numbers serve my purpose, psionics are broken In game experience doesn't matter - Except when it's my in-game experience, even if I can't prove with a build or specific details that the guy in my example wasn't cheating Obviously broken effects or combos don't matter - unless they're psionic powers, which means psionics as a whole are broken Examples of broken builds don't matter - unless they include a psionic class, which means psionics are broken Character weaknesses don't actually make a character weaker - unless it's a core character and can be used to prove how uber psionics are The fact that a character has to pick and choose abilities doesn't matter - except when that character is a psion, because they can obviously do everything Yes. it does seem that we are talking to a brick wall. He (or she) is making the same argument over and over and we just aren't getting through. ArchTyrant Tevaroth is manipulating the numbers to make his points valid, and I'm not seeing it.
Vloorshad 09-21-05, 12:09 AM	Yes. it does seem that we are talking to a brick wall. He (or she) is making the same argument over and over and we just aren't getting through. ArchTyrant Tevaroth is manipulating the numbers to make his points valid, and I'm not seeing it. Manipulating? I'm thinking more along the lines of fabricating.
Journeyman Samwise 09-21-05, 01:45 AM	Jesus, GIVE UP. People are either very clearly pro-psionics, anti-psionics, or don't know what the hell psionics are. Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing "THEY'RE NOT OVERPOWERED LOL READ THESE THREADS (link to thread with gazillions of words all of them boring) BECAUSE THEY SAY WHAT I LACK THE INTELLIGENCE TO SAY". It's old. Just stop.
Tempest Stormwind 09-21-05, 02:34 AM	Jesus, GIVE UP. People are either very clearly pro-psionics, anti-psionics, or don't know what the hell psionics are. Personally, I'm sick and tired of hearing "THEY'RE NOT OVERPOWERED LOL READ THESE THREADS (link to thread with gazillions of words all of them boring) BECAUSE THEY SAY WHAT I LACK THE INTELLIGENCE TO SAY". It's old. Just stop. I am clearly pro-psionics. However, if you show me a single argument as to why the XPH is overpowered, and it is convincing, I will revise my position. I know that there are anti-psionic people with similar agnostic viewpoints as well. There are many threads that essentially say "I'm just now trying the new psionics, and it rocks! I just have a few concerns..." to which we usually link them here or to the New Player's Guide. THIS is the usual nature of our linking to these threads -- 9/10 we address the exact issues the player or DM mentions in his thread, and then link here as a more general "for further reading" thing. I have yet to see a single thread (or post here) that says they gave it a shot, followed the rules, and found it overpowered for X reasons with Y evidence. The fact that AT is still using the same month-old arguments with no evidence, with stories that suggest cheating, and no evidence, and no new stories (simply rehashes of his old one), with no evidence (note: he mentioned something a month or so ago about showing us this godlike IS of his. We're still waiting for it. I think it's a vaporchar) isn't doing much for this track record. Would such a thing to exist, this would seem a lot more like a debate than simply stubborn fools attacking rational arguments with opinion only to be shot down with counterexamples and proof. The fact that in over 1400 posts no such argument has emerged speaks volumes on the integrity of the system, you'd think.
Sithobi1 09-21-05, 02:35 AM	This would be...oh, right. Trolling? In any case, pretty much every argument has been hashed out, in those threads you so despise. Why bother reading this thread? Or responding to it? After all, the words are boring.
Journeyman Samwise 09-21-05, 05:54 AM	I am clearly pro-psionics. However, if you show me a single argument as to why the XPH is overpowered, and it is convincing, I will revise my position. I'm not saying the XPH is overpowered. I don't think I even mentioned the XPH's relative level of broken-ness or unbrokenness or what-have-you. I'm just sick of hearing about it. Okay? It would be very nice to be able to sit down to a game with a new group and not have to *****slap every rabid pro-psionics zealot into submission just because I don't like a book. It's not a matter of power, brokeness or anything like that. I just DON'T LIKE THE BOOK. Jesus. Also, just a pointer, if you want people to drop with the power debate, I strongly encourage you to stop things like THIS: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801 from surfacing. Valid or not, people are going to look at it and use it to reinforce their belife that pisonics are broken. It's stupid and biased, but it's true. It's easily fixed by preventing that bonus from accruing (seeing as how it's a SIZE bonus) with a houserule, but does that stop people from using it to continue a frivolus argument? No. Not to mention that half the complaints with Psionics are fixable with houserules and disalowing certain feats (psionic overchannel or what have you, that was the one feat in the book I wasn't happy with) or going to a spell-purchase system like normal magic, that's just common sense, really.
runestar 09-21-05, 07:35 AM	I have a solution to this. When someone tries to tell you that psionics is overpowered, you reply him with, "Oh I am sorry. When I said that psionics was not overpowered, I meant that with the exception of XXX's games, psionics is god@#$%^&* freaking not so overpowered." Obviously, this needs a lot of refinement, but you get my gist.....
Sir Elton 09-21-05, 08:00 AM	Jesus, GIVE UP. People are either very clearly pro-psionics, anti-psionics, or don't know what the hell psionics are. It's old. Just stop. I'm pro-use of all of the SRD. :D Since Psionics is in the SRD ( :ayyyy!: ) I can use it ( :dancin: ). So we include a link to the thread on our sigs. You don't have to click on it. I'd want more support for use of psionics in a normal way; as part of a regular adventure. That's all.
Vloorshad 09-21-05, 09:15 AM	I'm not saying the XPH is overpowered. I don't think I even mentioned the XPH's relative level of broken-ness or unbrokenness or what-have-you. You might want to more clearly express yourself in the future. Also, refrain from calling those of us who link somebody to a previous thread where we have already hashed out the exact same arguments time and again stupid. It might help your credibility. I'm just sick of hearing about it. Okay? It would be very nice to be able to sit down to a game with a new group and not have to *****slap every rabid pro-psionics zealot into submission just because I don't like a book. So don't click on the threads that look like they'll contain what you hate. Simple. Also, if I had a gamer/DM like you, I'd be knocking you upside the head with my XPH for having such a ****-poor reason to not allow Psionics. I don't like bards, paladins, rangers, or wizards, so should we not allow them? It's not a matter of power, brokeness or anything like that. I just DON'T LIKE THE BOOK. Jesus. See above. Not to mention that half the complaints with Psionics are fixable with houserules and disalowing certain feats (psionic overchannel or what have you, that was the one feat in the book I wasn't happy with) or going to a spell-purchase system like normal magic, that's just common sense, really. I thought you didn't like the book. So there's only one feat you don't like? An easier solution is to follow the rules of the game. You know, the number of encounters all classes are balanced on per day, meta-caps, stuff like that. Of course, if you're already house ruling stuff, you broke it in the first place. Don't blame the XPH for that.
drunkenewok 09-21-05, 11:09 AM	I'm just sick of hearing about it. Okay?Vloorshad put it well, but I just have to ask: is there a 800-lb. angry half-giant psychic warrior threatening to impale you on his deep crystal sword if you don't read every single post in this thread? The primary reason this thread exists (imo) is to allow one location for players new to psionics to have their questions answered. Instead of requiring the fans of psionics to write a complete response to every single inquiry into the possible broken-ness of psionics, we can simply post a link to this thread, and let new players/DMs find answers to a whole slew of possible issues (some of which they might not have uncovered on their own). The psionics system has an incredible flexibility and customizability that I think it the primary reason there are so many fans of it. In order to keep a level of control on it, there are a wide variety of subtle and elegant checks and balances, and some of those might not be recognized when the player first comes across it. To me, the psionics system is like saying "You can do X, if..." instead of just saying "You can't do that", which is a distinction that makes psionics much more fun to play, imho. This thread exists to point out and reinforce that "if..." part of the statement, without which psionics probably (definitely?) would be broken. If you don't like that particular view of the game, or if you just don't want to read about it, there's very little that's forcing you to participate in this discussion. Unless of course the half-giant above is now threating to Decerebrate you... ;)
Sir Elton 09-21-05, 11:39 AM	I'm just sick of hearing about it. Okay? It would be very nice to be able to sit down to a game with a new group and not have to *****slap every rabid pro-psionics zealot into submission just because I don't like a book. Geeze . . . very violent towards players, aren't we? I think this pattern of dealing with a player is very, very inappropriate. If a DM violently disallowed me to play a psionics character, I would be very hurt and I would leave the group. I don't like DMs who Fort on me.
Scion of Coldshard 09-21-05, 11:50 AM	So apparently there are groups out there where you can walk in, sit down, and when asked what sort of character you want to play if you answer something like, 'are psionics allowed?' then suddenly you are attacked from all directions and potentially seriously beaten? Who is 'rabid' again? It is no different than asking what sort of clerics are allowed to be played or druids or any various class from a splat book. Except in that we have our own forum and it is generally accepted by those who know the rules that it is well balanced in most ways. Certainly more so than a lot of the core system.
Tempest Stormwind 09-21-05, 12:17 PM	Also, just a pointer, if you want people to drop with the power debate, I strongly encourage you to stop things like THIS: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=491801 from surfacing. Valid or not, people are going to look at it and use it to reinforce their belife that pisonics are broken. It's stupid and biased, but it's true. It's easily fixed by preventing that bonus from accruing (seeing as how it's a SIZE bonus) with a houserule, but does that stop people from using it to continue a frivolus argument? No. Not to mention that half the complaints with Psionics are fixable with houserules and disalowing certain feats (psionic overchannel or what have you, that was the one feat in the book I wasn't happy with) or going to a spell-purchase system like normal magic, that's just common sense, really. 1) The size bonus is the inefficient way of doing it, but it works (note that the enhanced score becomes the crystal's base, which is then enhanced, and becomes the kobold's base, repeat ad nauseum). There are better ways to do it. 2) This has nothing to do with psionics -- the feat Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species is strictly better in all regards, and there is a way to pull it off by level 5 using no psionics at all, compared to level 11-12 if you do use psionics. The problem with Pun-Pun isn't psionics. It's Manipulate Form. It sounds like you have some issues with the XPH in general. If you'd care to take a few deep breaths, count to ten, and talk about them, we'll be here to listen to them. By the way, why do you consider Vancian magic "common sense"? I'd sonner see wizards and clerics using a spell point system than everyone using Vancian magic.
drunkenewok 09-21-05, 01:43 PM	The problem with Pun-Pun isn't psionics. It's Manipulate Form.Amen to that. Also, I fail to see how psionics can and should be held responsible for a poorly thought-out monster in a completely difference splat-book. Just because a psionic power/feat combo that is balanced in 99.99% of all normal uses can be used to grant an unbalancing ability (that is more easily garnered through non-psionic means) doesn't make all of psionics unbalanced. Unreasoning prejudice against the system is unwarranted, and that a primary reason this thread is here: to inject a little reason in combatting that prejudice. There is only one thing that psionics fans do have a responsibility to prevent. If a DM is open to using psionics and allows a psionic character, we do have a responsibility to not take unfair advantage of the DM's inexperience with the system and break the game. Or if you do, don't be surprised if that DM (and all his friends) take a poor view of psionics in the future.
Thanosquest 09-21-05, 02:22 PM	OK, now I'll be real generous. Would you like me to build it for you? Can we see the sample Psionic so we can try to break it?
Scion of Coldshard 09-21-05, 02:27 PM	Can we see the sample Psionic so we can try to break it? I can post one of the more powerful psionic builds I have made if that would help.. assuming that I can still find it and I didnt make any mistakes of course..lol.. But wouldnt that be better for a 'different' thread?
Gilliard DeRosan 09-21-05, 03:01 PM	I think I would like to see AT's psion build as well as everyone else. It seems like there is an answer for every situation that comes up, which, to mem, seems like he has more powers than are selectable by a psion, has more feats that are allowed to a Psion, and more Discipline powers than a single disciplined psion should have without expanded knowledge feat, but again, he already seems to have way too many feats to allow this. Personally, I think every response to his stuff has been well thought out, backed up, and presented, and yet it's "Oh, well, my psion has this power to counter that. Along with this power, and that power, not to mention half of all of the powers from each of the discipline lists - since you know, in the build, exp and time doesn't matter, so he has tripled his available powers by indipendant research" I am done until I see this character, see his feat and power selections, and go from there. Otherwise, there is no arguing, because it is real easy to imagine a "Darn, they just presented obsticle X.. OH yeah, this power works great against that, so thats the power my character has to diffuse that situation" thing going on over there on his side of the playing field.
player1 09-21-05, 03:04 PM	I don't think that AT really means that psionics are "broken" or "overpowred". I only think he means that their power curve is higher then for other casters. Let AT correct me, if I'm wrong.
Nephlite 09-21-05, 03:57 PM	I don't think that AT really means that psionics are "broken" or "overpowred". I only think he means that their power curve is higher then for other casters. Let AT correct me, if I'm wrong. Gotta post my opinion: Nah, you play a Wizard if you want a higher power curse. Even with all their drawbacks like having to use spell slots and the spell book, Wizards are the strongest. Psions are a close second; right behind Cleric. I mean, you should se the things Clerics and Wizards can do. Psions can only dream... I'd like to see this Psion with all these curves.
Thanosquest 09-21-05, 03:58 PM	I can post one of the more powerful psionic builds I have made if that would help.. assuming that I can still find it and I didnt make any mistakes of course..lol.. But wouldnt that be better for a 'different' thread? I wouldn't mind playing around with it. I'd like to see what a well built scionic can do.
Journeyman Samwise 09-21-05, 04:38 PM	By the way, why do you consider Vancian magic "common sense"? I'd sonner see wizards and clerics using a spell point system than everyone using Vancian magic. I'm not, I'm saying it's easy to fix the perceived issues with Psionics being overpowered or what-have-you with a few house rules, or by switching Psionics to a more traditional form of magic, you know, one with spell slots.
Scion of Coldshard 09-21-05, 04:38 PM	I wouldn't mind playing around with it. I'd like to see what a well built scionic can do. I found one version of it. It has been a 'long' time since I looked it over so I dont even know if it has any mistakes anymore. Maybe arch can use it as fuel for his arguements or something ;) Have to keep him coming back until he sees the light right? Psychic warrior 20 Human Hd 20d8+20*con = 193.5 BAB +15 F +12 R +6 W +6 = F +25 R +19 W +22 Bonus feats 8 = Overchannel, psicrystal affinity, psionic talent x6 Feats 7 = psionic talent x 7 Bonus feat 1 = extend power Skills: (69) Autohypnosis 18, Concentration 23, knowledge (psionics) 10, Search 18 PP = 127 (base) + 90 (feats) + 80 (stat) = 297 Powers 1st = 3 Inertial armor, Expansion, Synesthete, (6) metaphysical weapon 2nd = 3 Psionic lions charge, Strength of my enemy, Body adjustment 3rd = 3 Evade burst, Empathic transfer hostile, empathic feedback 4th = 3 Inertial barrier, Steadfast perception, Freedom of movement, (5) Dim Door, (6) energy adaption 5th = 3 Adapt body, Psychofeedback 6th = 5 Dispelling buffer, Form of Doom, Mindblank (personal) Str 14, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 +2 str, +2 wis, +1 dex Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8 + items Str 26, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 26, Cha 8 Items: Girdle of giant str +6, amulet of health +6, headband of wisdom +6, gauntlets of dex +6, +4 wisdom book, +4 str book, orange ioun stone, torc of power preservation, cloak of resistance +5, standard of heroism Studded leather +1, heavy fortification, heartening Heavy shield +3, animated, heartening Adamantine ths +1, suppression, wounding Ring of deflection +4, skin of the defender +4, skin of the troll Dusty rose ioun stone (+1 insight to ac), pale green (+1 competance to attack, save, skill, ability), Boots of speed Beginning of the day this guy manifests an overchanneled inertial armor (24) +16, overchanneled metaphysical weapon (24) +7, mind blank (10), overchanneled dispelling buffer (10), overchanneled extended synesthete (2), overchanneled extended empathic feedback (24), overchanneled extended steadfast perception (8), overchanneled extended freedom of movement (8), overchanneled extended energy adaption (8), extended adapt body (10) Refreshing the 8 hour ones takes 50pp each time. Skin of the troll fixes any damage problems. Total free pp to use for the day: 69 This is actually a pretty significant amount of pp to burn through really. This allows for 5 forms of doom and with it 4 psionic lions charge at +2 and one at +1 damage for each attack, which isnt too bad really. Elsewise some of these can be burned to regain hp through hostile transfer or body adjustment. Or just form of doom 5 times and psionic lions charge 3 times. AC: 10 + 16 (armor bonus) + 5 (dex) + 5 (shield) + 4 (deflection) +1 (insight) +4 (natural) = 45 Attack: 15 + 8 (str) + 7 (weapon) + 2 (morale) + 1 (circumstance) = 33 Damage: 2d6 + 12 + 7 + 1 con = avg 26 + 1 con + suppression When hasted: AC: 46 Attack: +34/+34/+29/+24 Damage: avg 26+1con+suppression With form of doom and hasted: AC: 51 Attack: +36/+36/+31/+26 +24/+24/+24/+24 Damage: avg damage 29 + 1 con + suppression avg 14 Feel free to pick it apart or whatever. This guy was made to be the absolute min/maxed of the material available in the thread that he came from (no, I dont think he is the absolute, I am not really good at that sort of thing) and he was facing off vs a few different types of encounters. mmm..min/max build useing studded leather... ;) Of course a well built cleric would destroy him pretty thouroughly.. but he would stand a chance if he won initiative.. Still though, many high level encounters come down to who wins initiative ;/
Scion of Coldshard 09-21-05, 04:41 PM	I'm not, I'm saying it's easy to fix the perceived issues with Psionics being overpowered or what-have-you with a few house rules, or by switching Psionics to a more traditional form of magic, you know, one with spell slots. spell slots = no good. If anything I'd prefer to use a skill/feat based system for psionics and the wheel of time system for arcane/divine.
Lokiyn 09-21-05, 04:52 PM	Nah, you play a Wizard if you want a higher power curse.. Not making fun of you but that seems oddly appropriate I'd like to see this Psion with all these curves. So would i ...... ;)
Yak of Darkness 09-21-05, 04:58 PM	I'm not, I'm saying it's easy to fix the perceived issues with Psionics being overpowered or what-have-you with a few house rules, or by switching Psionics to a more traditional form of magic, you know, one with spell slots.Except that the psionics system, in many instances, is both created and balanced in the idea that power points will be used (the way many powers augment being the biggest and easiest to see issue). Not only will converting psi to spell slots be nothing more than spending a whole lot of time to reinvent the wheel, you'll be making it oval. If you want to get past people's percieved (and in the case of psi being overpowered, incorrect) issues with psionics, the best way to do so is to figure out what these issues are, and show them how the system really works. It's not completely changing a system to make it do something less well than it did before. I'd like to see this Psion with all these curves.Have you seen the Shadowmind in CV? :rimshot:
Bacris 09-21-05, 04:59 PM	Screw spell slots. Put everyone on the point system. Seriously. fire and forget is too clunky.
Tealgorthian 09-21-05, 05:05 PM	I'm not, I'm saying it's easy to fix the perceived issues with Psionics being overpowered or what-have-you with a few house rules, or by switching Psionics to a more traditional form of magic, you know, one with spell slots. Cept it wouldn't be psionics anymore. It would be magic where you call Wizards and Sorcerer's Psions.
Nephlite 09-21-05, 05:59 PM	Cept it wouldn't be psionics anymore. It would be magic where you call Wizards and Sorcerer's Psions. Ooh, wouild the Wilder get the same powers known as a Sorceror has spells known, the power gamer in me purrs. That would be one way to unnerf the Sorceror: Wild Surging power activate!
Vloorshad 09-21-05, 06:29 PM	I'm not, I'm saying it's easy to fix the perceived issues with Psionics being overpowered or what-have-you with a few house rules, or by switching Psionics to a more traditional form of magic, you know, one with spell slots. Emphasis mine. You need to fix your perception before you start trying to jack with Psionics. Two sayings come to mind: 1) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 2) Remove the plank from your eye before you try to remove the splinter from my own. In case you haven't understood what I'm telling you yet, understand the system and correct any of your misperceptions before you start talking about what is and isn't broken to those of us who know the system quite well. Zealots I believe you called us. Be careful about your own actions, or you'll acquire that title yourself.
Thanosquest 09-21-05, 08:32 PM	I found one version of it. It has been a 'long' time since I looked it over so I dont even know if it has any mistakes anymore. Maybe arch can use it as fuel for his arguements or something ;) Have to keep him coming back until he sees the light right? Thanks SoC.
Journeyman Samwise 09-21-05, 10:37 PM	I think the popular saying is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Personally, I think Vanican spellcasting is the one thing keeping Clerics from being broken to a nauseating degree. Not to mention that, if half the nova builds are to be belived, putting arcane and divine on spellpoints would break them EVEN WORSE than they are already. Screw spell slots. Put everyone on the point system. Seriously. fire and forget is too clunky.
Elgonn 09-22-05, 12:21 AM	If anything I'd prefer to use a skill/feat based system for psionics and the wheel of time system for arcane/divine. Sometimes I think I'm the only person left liking the vancian system. I'd be fine with Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, etc. using the WoT system. But I just can't let go of vancian with a Wizard. All of the other systems seem to imply innate power and functional limitations over time. Both issues I just don't ever see a Wizard working well with.
Scion of Coldshard 09-22-05, 12:26 AM	There are likely others ;) Really though, I would prefer wizards to work out of books, use large scale material components, build structures of power, and draw symbols in order to power their effects. Channeling and lots of wizards standing around chanting.. you know. More or less meaning that they have big effects, but require huge setups. This however does not lend itself well to the fast paced nature of the game. So, we have to make concessions ;) Given that, the Wheel of time method is interesting and flavorful. Maybe someday I will actually pull it into a d&d game..hmm
Lokiyn 09-22-05, 01:32 AM	There are likely others ;) Really though, I would prefer wizards to work out of books, use large scale material components, build structures of power, and draw symbols in order to power their effects. Channeling and lots of wizards standing around chanting.. you know. More or less meaning that they have big effects, but require huge setups. This however does not lend itself well to the fast paced nature of the game. So, we have to make concessions ;) Given that, the Wheel of time method is interesting and flavorful. Maybe someday I will actually pull it into a d&d game..hmm Roger Zelazny Had that sord of thing in his. However the Wizard could build the entire ritual and take the key point or word in the ritual and replace it with a block to keep it from finfishinf and at some point in the future could trigger that as per a spell, but that winds up like the vancian spell system because you then have to specify how much of what strength the caster can carry. Personally, I think Vanican spellcasting is the one thing keeping Clerics from being broken to a nauseating degree. Not to mention that, if half the nova builds are to be belived, putting arcane and divine on spellpoints would break them EVEN WORSE than they are already. Yes except then i would have the delicious experience of having the clerics gripe about how fast they eat thier points up with augmenting thier spells, buwahahahah
Archtyrant Terevoth 09-22-05, 10:22 AM	Remind me again why this make a psion unbalanced and broken? There are at least three core classes that are typically superior to a psion given players of comparable skill. If we consider the class structure as a standardized test hierarchy, that makes the psion about a 66th percentile class. It's better than 2/3 of the core classes, and typically worse than 1/3. In this context, the psion is merely average, which is hardly grounds for throwing it out based on it's uber-ness. Well, it's not all about uberness so much as it is about archetype theft. A wizard is more "powerful" overall than a fighter type, but there are things the fighter type can still do well. Having a wizard doesn't outright replace the fighter. Even the cleric archer, who is overall designed to replace a fighter doesn't fully replace him (so long as we're talking about a core cleric archer). The druid is the only class that can truly replace the warrior type entirely, but that's why many people (myself included) consider the druid to be broken too. Basically the crux of the balance argument is that there's no reason anyone would make a fighter type if you can instead of be a psion/slayer or even a psywarrior. It's complete class replacement. If the psion were clearly superior in all respects to every class, then yes, you'd have a case for the psion being unbalanced. Not quite. All you have to show is that the psion totally invalidates any other balanced class. This makes it unbalanced. So if you consider any of the following balanced: Barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger. Then it still must be a viable choice to pick any of those classes when psions are in the game. If the psion is so powerful that it makes picking one of those classes pointless, then the psion is overpowered. If X is balanced and the introduction of Y no longer makes X a valid choice, then Y has added imbalance to the game. It's that simple. Well, that would be a valid explanation if you can demonstrate a build that has all the abilities you claim to be present following the rules presented in the XPH. Until you do so, we only have your word that this took place, and you'll have to forgive me if I don't consider you the most unbiased observer. Honestly, I don't think posting a build will do anything. You people have seen power psionics builds all over. Builds don't tell the whole story and like any statistic, can be interpreted a variety of ways. What works in debate and what works out in the field are two different things. Some things are invariably overpowered in debates. For instance, in any wizard debate, it always so happens the wizard has the perfect contingency spell up to do something awesome. Out in the field, this is rarely true. I believe that the whole argument over power point conservation is another illusory restriction. Either everyone here is much bigger fans of railroading than I am, or that restriction is one constructed to hold weight primarily for debate and not out in the field. If someone is going to start a high level game on the other hand, then I'm totally there and I'll show people what a psion/slayer can do in action. Quite simply I'm convinced this is what it's going to take to prove this point. Now, speaking of twisting around statistics... lets get on to your next point. Now, to compare a casting of Divine Power vs a manifestion of Offensive Precognition: L20 Cleric Divine Power - L4 spell slot as Cleric L20 - +5 attack, +6 enhancement bonus to strength, +20 temporary hps Total equivalent cost: 7pp, 1 standard action L20 Psion Offensive Precognition - 7pp - +3 attack Animal Affinity - 3pp - +4 enhancement to strength Vigor - 4pp - +20 temporary hps Total costs: 14 pp and 3 standard actions How about 0 standard actions for the psion. all those powers have 1 min/level durations. They last 20 minutes. 0 combat actions used. Also forget the animal affinity, the psion is going to have an enhancement bonus item by that level anyway, and so will the cleric likely enough. The psion is going to burn his whole load on offensive prescience for a much bigger bonus than +3, and likely get more out of vigor as well. The cleric is more efficient spell slot wise of course, but we already knew that, and seriously I don't care. The psions buffs are lasting him 20 minutes, probably at least 2-3 encounters. The cleric will be saving slots, but so what? Efficiency is a theory argument but out in the field it doesn't matter. L20 Psion (Nova) Temporal Acceleration - 15pp - (action saving) Offensive Precognition - 22pp - +8 attack Animal Affinity - 8pp - +4 to Str and Con (which gives +40 temporary hps) Vigor - 23pp - +115 temporary hps Total cost: 65pp and 1 standard action, 1 swift action L10/L10 Cleric/(PoorBAB/Full ML PrC) Divine Power - L4 slot - +8 attack, +6 to Str, +20 temporary hps Heal - L6 slot - 200hp Total equivalent cost: 18 pp, 2 standard actionsYou did argue earlier that actions are far more precious than a few powers known, but you're basically arguing that effectively tripling (or more) the cost for a psion to accomplish something a cleric can do in about the same amount of time makes the psion broken. Again, you're missing the fact that you don't need animal affinity, the psion's bonuses are bigger from offensive prescience (remember he doesn't have to just duplicate divine power, he surpasses it). Plus the psion's powers don't necessarily need to be cast in nova. They last 20 minutes without extend power. That's a long time. Assuming you move through the dungeon quickly SWAT team style, you won't run out that 20 minute duration. The cleric needs to use his powers while in combat. A buff nova is generally something you do to counter dispelling or when you happen to get ambushed. Fortunately in the ambush case, usually you don't have anywhere to go for the rest of the day, so using a nova isn't problematic. Against dispelling it's a cost, sure but you shouldn't expect to get dispelled with targetted dispels that often, unless your DM is deliberately picking on you. Note especially that the psion in the Nova example above has already spent at least 10% of his daily pp, while the cleric has spent only 2 of his 50+ spell slots. You don't get any bonus XP for how many spell slots you saved. Most of the time high level casters don't even end up using many of their low level slots anyway. So they'll have 30 or so slots left at the end of the day, but who cares? That's actually a failing of the cleric that he cannot use his slots as quickly as the psion.
RadicalTaoist 09-22-05, 12:12 PM	Basically the crux of the balance argument is that there's no reason anyone would make a fighter type if you can instead of be a psion/slayer or even a psywarrior. It's complete class replacement. Either everyone here is much bigger fans of railroading than I am, or that restriction is one constructed to hold weight primarily for debate and not out in the field. Two points of mine: One, the fact that the fighter is a weak class, has been from core, and even with splatbooks has a number of problems, is not the fault of the psywar or the psionic gish. It never has been. Two, adventuring outside of a dungeon, challenging players with different kinds of encounters and play styles, and denying them total control of the game speed is not railroading.
DisposableHero_ 09-22-05, 12:25 PM	If X is balanced and the introduction of Y no longer makes X a valid choice, then Y has added imbalance to the game.If X and Y have similar power levels with different strengths and weaknesses, and you play to the strengths of Y, while allowing Y to avoid its considerable weaknesses, to the point where X is no longer a valid choice, then Y has not added imbalance to the game, you have.
Elgonn 09-22-05, 02:30 PM	The psions buffs are lasting him 20 minutes, probably at least 2-3 encounters. Seriously does anyone play with 2-3 equal CR encounters in 20 minutes?
Gilliard DeRosan 09-22-05, 02:38 PM	Basically the crux of the balance argument is that there's no reason anyone would make a fighter type if you can instead of be a psion/slayer or even a psywarrior. It's complete class replacement. That is a big assumption to make there. I run a Dark Sun game where Psionics are allowed, and are the world-favored medium in fact, and yet my group does not have a Psion or a Psychic Warrior. My group does have a Ranger though... So, apparently, not everyone thinks it is a complete class replacement, and as long as not everyone believes so, it is not a fact. Not quite. All you have to show is that the psion totally invalidates any other balanced class. This makes it unbalanced. So if you consider any of the following balanced: Barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger. Then it still must be a viable choice to pick any of those classes when psions are in the game. If the psion is so powerful that it makes picking one of those classes pointless, then the psion is overpowered. If X is balanced and the introduction of Y no longer makes X a valid choice, then Y has added imbalance to the game. It's that simple. See above. You cannot show that the Psion will ever invalidate any class, because there will always be someone who will refuse to stop playing their balanced class, and as long as someone refuses to give in, you cannot prove it otherwise. It's like the old argument here that Psionic Meditation is a mandatory feat choice. I have proven otherwise time and time again, because I have made a few character, and even NPCs and have chosen not to take that feat, and the characters still rock. Thus, I have proven the original poster wrong, and it is not, in fact, a mandatory feat choice to be a useful character. Honestly, I don't think posting a build will do anything. You people have seen power psionics builds all over. Builds don't tell the whole story and like any statistic, can be interpreted a variety of ways. What works in debate and what works out in the field are two different things. Some things are invariably overpowered in debates. For instance, in any wizard debate, it always so happens the wizard has the perfect contingency spell up to do something awesome. Out in the field, this is rarely true. I believe that the whole argument over power point conservation is another illusory restriction. Either everyone here is much bigger fans of railroading than I am, or that restriction is one constructed to hold weight primarily for debate and not out in the field. If someone is going to start a high level game on the other hand, then I'm totally there and I'll show people what a psion/slayer can do in action. Quite simply I'm convinced this is what it's going to take to prove this point. Now, speaking of twisting around statistics... lets get on to your next point. Posting a build will prove a lot. It gives us level for level selections for feats, powers, ability mods, and the like. It Means you cannot just "say" well, my Psion has this power to counter that eventuality. Because eventually you run out of available powers to have something to cover every eventuality. In debate, however, it is real easy to keep pulling up powers to counter any eventuality, because you need not keep track of selections, just the existence of said powers. As for the Wizard having a contingiency set up, the parameters of the rules change there because Wizards do not have a limited number of spells that they can know at any given level. One of the reasons why Wizards are generally more powerful than any psion of an equivalent level. How about 0 standard actions for the psion. all those powers have 1 min/level durations. They last 20 minutes. 0 combat actions used. Also forget the animal affinity, the psion is going to have an enhancement bonus item by that level anyway, and so will the cleric likely enough. The psion is going to burn his whole load on offensive prescience for a much bigger bonus than +3, and likely get more out of vigor as well. The cleric is more efficient spell slot wise of course, but we already knew that, and seriously I don't care. The psions buffs are lasting him 20 minutes, probably at least 2-3 encounters. The cleric will be saving slots, but so what? Efficiency is a theory argument but out in the field it doesn't matter. Again, you are assuming that you will be able to have multiple encounters within such a short period of time. Not all combat takes place in a dungeon setting. Not all encounters are combat within a dungeon setting. I have run a game now for 11 sessions, and for only 2 of those were the group in a dungeon-like setting. And of those, there was only 1 situation where the group did not take 10-20 minutes searching a room for a passage out, or looking for treasure or whatnot before they encountered something else. The rest of those sessions, the encounters happened above ground, spaced out from each other, because frankly Monsters don't travel or lair within minutes of each other, because ultimately they will come into conflict with each other. Now, there are raiders and bandits who may hole up near a monsters lair, waiting for some hapless group to run afoul of the monster, and then move in to clean up the leftover, giving you another encounter within a relatively short period of time. But Using this as a backing factor for this debate makes it an invalid point, because it is a situational circumstance. Another game that I have played in, well into 20-30+ sessions, and I think we have been in a "dungeon-like" environment for maybe 7-10 of those, tops, and that is a very liberal estimation. If I went back over records, I might find it to be closer to 4-6 but thats not the point. Dungeoncrawl games may be common for some people, but not everyone wants a room-after-room game style, so it is not a viable backing point for this argument. Again, you're missing the fact that you don't need animal affinity, the psion's bonuses are bigger from offensive prescience (remember he doesn't have to just duplicate divine power, he surpasses it). Plus the psion's powers don't necessarily need to be cast in nova. They last 20 minutes without extend power. That's a long time. Assuming you move through the dungeon quickly SWAT team style, you won't run out that 20 minute duration. The cleric needs to use his powers while in combat. See above. Just because your game seems to be spent mostly in a dungeon with an encounter in every room, doesn't mean that every game is that way. In fact, besides myself, at least 1 or 2 others have posted that their games (whether they run or play in them) do not follow this situation. So it has been established that not every game is like this, so this 2-3 encounters in a 20 minute period is not a viable backing point. A buff nova is generally something you do to counter dispelling or when you happen to get ambushed. Fortunately in the ambush case, usually you don't have anywhere to go for the rest of the day, so using a nova isn't problematic. Against dispelling it's a cost, sure but you shouldn't expect to get dispelled with targetted dispels that often, unless your DM is deliberately picking on you. No, you shouldn't expect to be dispelled every time, and if every NPC started off with a blanket dispell, I would have to agree. But you should still conserve. Because in most games you are not going to have 2-3 encounters every 20 minutes (as has been established, since not everyone has games where you have this many encounters in such a short time) , so you should conserve. And if you so happen to find a safe hole, get ambushed, go nova, don't be complaining when something comes knocking in the middle of the night and you have no more power points. You don't get any bonus XP for how many spell slots you saved. Most of the time high level casters don't even end up using many of their low level slots anyway. So they'll have 30 or so slots left at the end of the day, but who cares? That's actually a failing of the cleric that he cannot use his slots as quickly as the psion. In real life, you don't get any experience for saving money either... you could be the type to have $100 free each paycheck.. whether you go nova and blow it all the day after you get paid or not, or save some for an emergency until next paycheck... well... I think we all know who the types are at work who are asking to borrow a few bucks inbetween paychecks... they may not have more "experience" per say, but they do have a bit of money for lunch in an emergency. I live in Vegas, so I know the types who blow all their free cash on payday in the slot machines, and then complain that they once again have nothing until next payday.. In the game as well as in real life, think of saving your spell slots as auto insurance. Yeah, if nothing happens, your just have the insurance for nothing. But think of the time when something does happen and you don't have the insurance. Okay, enough analogies from me.
drunkenewok 09-22-05, 03:20 PM	Again, you're missing the fact that you don't need animal affinityI don't know how your games run, but my psions don't tend to have Strength enhancement items. The PsyWar or an IS build might, but then the PsyWar doesn't have access to Temporal Acceleration (unless he burns a feat to get it). Having a +6 stat enhancement item for more than two stats is relatively uncommon in my experience, and the primary is almost always Intelligence (or Wisdom for the PsyWar). Even if you do spend all your wealth on stat enhancers, that still only means the psion saves between 4 and 12 points, which still keeps the cost much higher than the cleric.How about 0 standard actions for the psion.You tell me how to manifest three powers, all of which have standard action casting times, without spending more power points than the ones detailed, and I'll show you a cheater. Sure, you can burn Temporal Acceleration to buff up (at a cost), or you could buff pre-combat (though a cleric could do the same, unless he picks his teeth for 20 rounds before the opening the door), but you can't manifest all those powers in any given circumstance without spending the actions, unless you are cheating.You don't get any bonus XP for how many spell slots you saved.True. But if the psion runs out of pp, he's about as effective as a L20 Commoner with a slightly better Will save.Efficiency is a theory argument but out in the field it doesn't matter.Really? The only time it doesn't matter is if you intentionally prevent it from mattering. If your players know that they can take all the time in the world to buff up before combat and can rest whenever and where-ever they want, there really is no risk. Are the enemies you present really so honorable (read: Lawful Stupid) as to give the PCs every possible advantage? Maybe your PCs love to steamroll everything in sight, but mine tend to appreciate an actual challenge.Assuming you move through the dungeon quickly SWAT team style, you won't run out that 20 minute duration.Again, this is a symptom of your play style. In my experience, a single encounter takes an absolute minimum of 5 minutes (1 minute of crazy combat + 4 minutes of aftermath, looting bodies, attending to wounds, etc). Unless the players specifically tell me otherwise, I assume they take their time, keep an eye out for potential traps, and generally don't go charging headlong into the unknown. If your party does take this particular style of dealing with a series of encounters, there are countless ways to make them pay for it. Traps are the first thing that come to mind, the scene from SW where Han charges around the corner to find a legion of stormtroopers waiting for him is a close second. In my play experience, 1 min/level buffs last an absolute maximum of 2 encounters. In fact, at least one prominent designer (Monte Cook) has come out against the 1 min/level duration, and made everything either 1 round/level or 10 minutes/level, just to avoid the potential abuse (yes, that's abuse) that your SWAT-Team party is taking advantage of. A core L20 Fighter is (and I'm pretty sure this can be presented as fact) one of the weakest L20 characters you can play. You have claimed that a specific build of cleric doesn't overshadow the fighter, but I tend to disagree (given that I've played such a build and dealt with the numerous complaints from my friend playing the fighter). So that's at least two classes (druid and cleric) that completely overshadow the fighter archetype, and thus two core classes (the metric of comparison) are by your definition completely broken and thus should be banned. Now, in my experience, a PsyWar or IS build can approach (and in some few cases supercede) the fighter, but neither to the degree of the cleric or the druid. You also ignore the fact that there are hundreds of builds that do not infringe upon the fighter (or any other core class), and only one or two very specific builds that do. (The same is true for both the cleric and the druid). Now, if you allow the cleric or druid, but you don't allow the comparatively weaker psion for reasons of broken-ness or archetype theft, doesn't that make you a hypocrite?If X and Y have similar power levels with different strengths and weaknesses, and you play to the strengths of Y, while allowing Y to avoid its considerable weaknesses, to the point where X is no longer a valid choice, then Y has not added imbalance to the game, you have.Amen to that. Posting a build will prove a lot. It gives us level for level selections for feats, powers, ability mods, and the like. It Means you cannot just "say" well, my Psion has this power to counter that eventuality. Because eventually you run out of available powers to have something to cover every eventuality. In debate, however, it is real easy to keep pulling up powers to counter any eventuality, because you need not keep track of selections, just the existence of said powers.And Amen to that. Building a psionic character involves a lot of difficult choices - do I plan for eventuality A, or eventuality B? Your arguments to date assume that the psion has the capability to plan and prepare for every possible contingency, and I for one have never managed to play a psionic character with that luxury.
Thanosquest 09-27-05, 03:34 PM	Anyone still interested in seeing the stat sheet?
Scion of Coldshard 09-27-05, 03:41 PM	Anyone still interested in seeing the stat sheet? If you can make him post one then of course ;) Although at this point I'd rather that it got its own thread and was linked to this one. That way more people might actually see it.
Thanosquest 09-27-05, 04:28 PM	Oh, I was talking about the stat sheet that I promised to get to you guys for review. I figure everyone forgot by now since it's buried under pages and pages of other posts.
Scion of Coldshard 09-27-05, 06:46 PM	as I have no idea what you mean then I definately have forgotten ;) and my inability to search threads is hindersome. but hey, go ahead, I'm cool with looking things over. Maybe arch will be convinced someday? ;)
Vloorshad 09-27-05, 06:51 PM	Oh, I was talking about the stat sheet that I promised to get to you guys for review. I figure everyone forgot by now since it's buried under pages and pages of other posts. I want to see it.
Thanosquest 09-27-05, 09:06 PM	This is what I could gather. I'm not exactly sure what it all means so correct me if I am wrong. Egoist 5 Soulknife 3 Elan HP 64 BA +4 AC 15 (22 / 27) F +5 R +7 W +9 = F +9 R +11 W +13 Bonus feats 4 = Wild Talent, Weapon Focus, Alertness, PsyCrystal Affinity Feats 6 = Improve Init, Psionic Weapon, Up the Wall, Overchannel, Power Att, Cleave Skills: Know (Psi), Craft (Psicraft), Use Psi Device Special Skills Immunity (Charm/Hold/Dom), Mind Blade, Throw Blade, Disc, Resist +4 Saves, Resilience (2DR, 1pp), Repl PP = 37/32(23) Powers 1st = Presc (Off), Precog (Def), Vigor, Inert Armor, Thicken Skin, Mind Thrust 2nd = Anim Aff, Conc Blast, Energy Adap, Swarm of Crystals, Keen Edge (Psi) 3rd = Touchsight, Energy Retort, Energy Burst, Hustle Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 9 +1 Con, +1 Int Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 9 Items: Ring of Prot +2, Pot Bull Strength, Dorje of Entangling, Dorje of Force Screen, Boots of Speed
Bacris 09-27-05, 09:45 PM	Thanosquest - how does he have 10 feats at 8th level? He gets 2 bonus feats for Psion 1 and 5 A feat at 1, 3, and 6. That's 5 feats. Next, Soulblade is from 3.0 Psionics, not 3.5 psionics, so immediately I say blech. More next, Keen Edge is 3rd level, not 2nd. Finally, the number of powers makes no sense compared to the XPH Psion progression... so my guess is this is a non-3.5 character or an amalgam 3.0 / 3.5 that doesn't follow standard rules.
Scion of Coldshard 09-27-05, 10:01 PM	58 point buy equivalent? wow.. that would make for a pretty hefty character or just about any class. Pretty heavily multiclassed, fairly low pp store.. this guy was causing trouble? If he wants to have his AC up for awhile that will take inertial armor at max. +6 armor for 5pp. Down to 32pp left for the day, AC of 21. Prepping up for a single rough fight takes several rounds and a lot of pp. Thicken skin: 4pp, 50 minute duration, +2 enhancement bonus to AC Defensive precognition: 4pp, 5 minute duration, +2 insight bonus to AC and saves Offensive precognition: 4pp, 5 minute duration, +2 insight bonus to attack rolls. Animal affinity (dex): 3pp, 5 minute duration, +4 enhancement bonus to dex. Energy retort: 5pp, 5 minute duration, pick an energy type, 1/round shoot off some damage when struck. Vigor: 5pp, 5 minute duration, +25 temp hp. Keen edge: 5pp, 50 minute duration, keen on weapon. Boots of speed: 0pp, 10round maximum, haste bonus (various bonuses including +1 to ac). = 30pp, +7 to AC, +3 to attack, +1 attack on a full attack, return damage 1/round on successful attack. 2pp left for the day. Although for this one battle he is a powerhouse. So long as there is no delay in attacking of course, and the guy has quite a few rounds of prep time. Battle number 2 on he is going to be pretty worthless. At least that is true in comparison if everyone else has a similar point value. If this guy is dominating the game then something is seriously wrong ;)
Thanosquest 09-27-05, 10:32 PM	Oops. I probably made a mistake with Soulblade. I wrote down Soul on the paper and it was probably a Soulknife. Sorry. As for the other stuff, I'll have to look it up before asking him but thanks for the feedback. I'm getting pretty fed up with the whole thing though. The last game we had was more of the same. And there is very little in the way of party harmony. The Psionic was arguing with everyone. The NPCs, the PCs, and the DM. I may just quit RPing altogether. Some questions: 1. What's a 58 buy equivalent? 2. How many powers is he supposed to have?
Sithobi1 09-27-05, 10:41 PM	Oops. I probably made a mistake with Soulblade. I wrote down Soul on the paper and it was probably a Soulknife. Sorry. As for the other stuff, I'll have to look it up before asking him but thanks for the feedback. I'm getting pretty fed up with the whole thing though. The last game we had was more of the same. And there is very little in the way of party harmony. The Psionic was arguing with everyone. The NPCs, the PCs, and the DM. I may just quit RPing altogether. Some questions: 1. What's a 58 buy equivalent? 2. How many powers is he supposed to have? 1.It means he's probably cheating, since his stats are ridiculously high. If not, consider that with those stats, almost anything will be extremely good. 2. He should have 5 of 1st level, 4 of 2nd, and 2 of 3rd level. This leads me to believe even more that he's either cheating or doesn't know the rules.
Scion of Coldshard 09-27-05, 10:47 PM	That isnt a psionic problem, that is a bad player problem, dont let a bad player ruin any parts, or even all, of the system for you. Point buy is a way to make balanced stats for all characters. it is in the dmg, and personally I prefer it over rolling 1000% ;) It goes as follows: All stats start at 8, for each point above that up to 14 it costs one point (so 6 points for a 14), then two points for each up to 16 (so 10 points for a 16) and then three points for each up to 18 (so 16 points for an 18). Most campaigns I have seen online run between 28 and 32 for characters (I run 36, because that is what it takes for a character to have all 14's, and that is the baseline that I want). The guy should have 11 powers known and he seems to have 15. At max he should have 5 first, 4 second, and 2 third. Between his massive point buy, questionable character items, inability to run out of pp, and other problems I would have to again say this is more of a player problem than a character problem.
Nephlite 09-27-05, 11:04 PM	This is what I could gather. I'm not exactly sure what it all means so correct me if I am wrong. Egoist 5 Soulblade 3 Elan HP 64 BA +4 AC 15 (22 / 27) F +5 R +7 W +9 = F +9 R +11 W +13 Bonus feats 4 = Wild Talent, Weapon Focus, Alertness, PsyCrystal Affinity Feats 6 = Improve Init, Psionic Weapon, Up the Wall, Overchannel, Power Att, Cleave Skills: Know (Psi), Craft (Psicraft), Use Psi Device Special Skills Immunity (Charm/Hold/Dom), Mind Blade, Throw Blade, Disc, Resist +4 Saves, Resilience (2DR, 1pp), Repl PP = 37/32(23) Powers 1st = Presc (Off), Precog (Def), Vigor, Inert Armor, Thicken Skin, Mind Thrust 2nd = Anim Aff, Conc Blast, Energy Adap, Swarm of Crystals, Keen Edge (Psi) 3rd = Touchsight, Energy Retort, Energy Burst, Hustle Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 9 +1 Con, +1 Int Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 9 Items: Ring of Prot +2, Pot Bull Strength, Dorje of Entangling, Dorje of Force Screen, Boots of Speed Dogre of entangling? Entangling Ectoplasm correct, not the spell Entangle :D Yeah he has more Powers known than he should. His max is 11 at level 5. So you guys roll for stats? I always do most times, but geez, he rolls high. I'd like his dice ;) What does this mean: PP = 37/32(23) ? He has 2 from Wild Talent, 2 from Elan, 10 from 18 Int at level 5 Psion, Psion level 5 adds 25 His total: 39 pp So tell him he has 2 more PP than he thought :cool: Ask why he put down so many powers...maybe it was a mistake.
smrtgmp 09-28-05, 01:03 AM	He does roll high (assuming he didnt cheat). But then, some people are lucky in that department. One of my PCs certainly is. I've watched him roll insane stats time and time again, and it doesnt matter who's dice he uses. He routinely rolls multiple 18s, and rarely rolls anything that results in a penalty. If only I could be so lucky.
Scion of Coldshard 09-28-05, 01:14 AM	All the more reason to use point buy. If one member of a 4 person group rolls fairly low stats (total of +1 or +2 mod), two are more average (+4 or +5 total mod), and one rolls very high (+7 or +8 total mod) you can really have a major problem in a group. And given four people this is not an unlikely occurance at all. And that is with a fairly small range. The guy above has +13 total mod, after a race with a net stat penalty. It could easily be like trying to compete with someone who gets a +2 to all rolls above you, all of the time. If the guy is also good at rolling well then it can create 'huge' problems. One character is almost always successful whereas the other almost always fails, especially when it is important.
carnivore 09-28-05, 05:11 PM	This is what I could gather. I'm not exactly sure what it all means so correct me if I am wrong. Egoist 5 Soulknife 3 Elan HP 64 BA +4 AC 15 (22 / 27) F +5 R +7 W +9 = F +9 R +11 W +13 Bonus feats 4 = Wild Talent, Weapon Focus, Alertness, PsyCrystal Affinity Feats 6 = Improve Init, Psionic Weapon, Up the Wall, Overchannel, Power Att, Cleave Skills: Know (Psi), Craft (Psicraft), Use Psi Device Special Skills Immunity (Charm/Hold/Dom), Mind Blade, Throw Blade, Disc, Resist +4 Saves, Resilience (2DR, 1pp), Repl PP = 37/32(23) Powers 1st = Presc (Off), Precog (Def), Vigor, Inert Armor, Thicken Skin, Mind Thrust 2nd = Anim Aff, Conc Blast, Energy Adap, Swarm of Crystals, Keen Edge (Psi) 3rd = Touchsight, Energy Retort, Energy Burst, Hustle Str 18, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 14, Cha 9 +1 Con, +1 Int Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 9 Items: Ring of Prot +2, Pot Bull Strength, Dorje of Entangling, Dorje of Force Screen, Boots of Speed the feats are incorrect: Psion 1 and 5 give Bonus feats:Bonus Feats A psion gains a bonus feat at 1st level, 5th level, 10th level, 15th level, and 20th level. This feat must be a psionic feat, a metapsionic feat, or a psionic item creation feat. soulknife 1 gives Weapon focus(Mindblade) and Wild talent if he takes Psicrystal Affinity...he can get Alertness by being close to his psicrystal if he were human he could get a bonus feat...but he is not(even though Elans were Human before thier transformation...you do not get to carry over the bonus racial feat) so total feats: 2 bonus from Psion 2 bonus from Soulknife 3 from levels(must take Psicrystal Affinity here of from the Psion bonus feat) 1 from choosing psicrystal affinity ........total = 8 feats......he has too many feats :D
Scion of Coldshard 09-28-05, 05:17 PM	Maybe the character has some flaws?
carnivore 09-28-05, 05:20 PM	ok...what are they? :D
Vloorshad 09-28-05, 06:32 PM	Maybe the character has some flaws? Yeah. The player.
Scion of Coldshard 09-28-05, 06:42 PM	ok...what are they? Maybe something like this? Flaw 1: Day bringer: You cannot remember what day it is. In fact, every few minutes seems like a new day to you. You have no short term memory and it takes a full day and a DC 30 concentration check to commit anything to long term memory (as an aside, you also regain all of your daily abilities whenever your clock resets). Now we see why he never runs out of pp ;)
Nephlite 09-28-05, 07:20 PM	Maybe something like this? Flaw 1: Day bringer: You cannot remember what day it is. In fact, every few minutes seems like a new day to you. You have no short term memory and it takes a full day and a DC 30 concentration check to commit anything to long term memory (as an aside, you also regain all of your daily abilities whenever your clock resets). Now we see why he never runs out of pp ;) If it provides a benefit and a disadvantage than it is a trait not a flaw. Traits dont' give you extra feats becuse they already have benefits. Flaws do because they are just disadvantages.
Scion of Coldshard 09-28-05, 09:31 PM	If it provides a benefit and a disadvantage than it is a trait not a flaw. Traits dont' give you extra feats becuse they already have benefits. Flaws do because they are just disadvantages. That would actually be part of the joke nephlite, it isnt a real flaw ;)
Sir Elton 09-29-05, 12:08 AM	That's just it. It's hidden cleverly so it can catch a DM off guard. :)
Nephlite 09-29-05, 01:21 PM	Hehe, yeah I got the joke, but sometimes I'm serious-like and so I answered that way :D Does everyone play with flaws to get feats nowadays or is there a rising population of people doing so?
Scion of Coldshard 09-29-05, 01:29 PM	I would love to use them, but overall I think they take more adjucating directly from the dm to be useful for most groups. It is a very difficult balancing process. But when done properly I think it can add a lot to a game. Still though, do you have anything else to add about the character Thanosquest? What he properly lynched? ;)
Thanosquest 09-29-05, 09:12 PM	I would love to use them, but overall I think they take more adjucating directly from the dm to be useful for most groups. It is a very difficult balancing process. But when done properly I think it can add a lot to a game. Still though, do you have anything else to add about the character Thanosquest? What he properly lynched? ;) Heh. Actually, I think I'm th only one in the group that seems to care. We even have one guy that used to DM and he doesn't think anything is wrong with the way the guy is playing. So I'll probably stop playing after a couple more sessions. I figure, what's the point if people just want to power game and forget about the rules? Anyway, if anything interesting happens I'll let you guys know. Thanks for the help.
Vloorshad 09-29-05, 10:07 PM	Heh. Actually, I think I'm th only one in the group that seems to care. We even have one guy that used to DM and he doesn't think anything is wrong with the way the guy is playing. So I'll probably stop playing after a couple more sessions. I figure, what's the point if people just want to power game and forget about the rules? Anyway, if anything interesting happens I'll let you guys know. Thanks for the help. Sorry your first experience has been so tainted by this guy. You could always start a new character. Something with high strength, expansion, and become a Hulking Hurler. I'm sure Scion or somebody can point you to what that nasty critter can do.
Sir Elton 09-29-05, 10:27 PM	Or you could find a new group that cares. :) I think that's what your planning to do, anyway. :D
carnivore 11-30-05, 07:11 PM	:bump: to save :D
Archtyrant Terevoth 11-30-05, 07:49 PM	If your players know that they can take all the time in the world to buff up before combat and can rest whenever and where-ever they want, there really is no risk. Are the enemies you present really so honorable (read: Lawful Stupid) as to give the PCs every possible advantage? PCs can easily take precautions against pursuit at high levels. Just teleport and a method of preventing scrying, like mind blank, is pretty much all they need to be untrackable. Heck, even rope trick makes it so nobody can find you, and that's a 2nd level spell. In my experience, a single encounter takes an absolute minimum of 5 minutes (1 minute of crazy combat + 4 minutes of aftermath, looting bodies, attending to wounds, etc). Unless the players specifically tell me otherwise, I assume they take their time, keep an eye out for potential traps, and generally don't go charging headlong into the unknown. This isn't too realistic. If you're invading some guys fortress, probably setting alarms off and everything, are you going to give them 5 minutes per battle to prepare for you? Especially if you've got buffs that can wear out. Honestly it's not very plausible for PCs to be dumb and wait around for their buffs to fade. They'll be time to loot corpses and ID treasure after everyone is dead. If your party does take this particular style of dealing with a series of encounters, there are countless ways to make them pay for it. Traps are the first thing that come to mind, the scene from SW where Han charges around the corner to find a legion of stormtroopers waiting for him is a close second. Sure, traps can work if the situation calls for it. But lets remember the idea isn't just to kill off the PCs. Just because I could put in uber deathtraps reminiscent of the classic Tomb of Horrors that could take out the entire group doesn't actually improve anything. It doesnt' make the game more fun. It just says, "Ok guys, the psion is ruining it, so I decided to kill you off." TPKs don't solve problems, they just end the game. And if the trap doesnt' kill them, then they just beat a swift retreat if they're beat up badly enough that they can't go on. Remember, when you've got teleport you can move about the game world at will. In my play experience, 1 min/level buffs last an absolute maximum of 2 encounters. In fact, at least one prominent designer (Monte Cook) has come out against the 1 min/level duration, and made everything either 1 round/level or 10 minutes/level, just to avoid the potential abuse (yes, that's abuse) that your SWAT-Team party is taking advantage of. Monte is right and I agree with him. But isn't this actually an indication that the psi HB has problems considering it uses 1 min/level extensively? A core L20 Fighter is (and I'm pretty sure this can be presented as fact) one of the weakest L20 characters you can play. You have claimed that a specific build of cleric doesn't overshadow the fighter, but I tend to disagree (given that I've played such a build and dealt with the numerous complaints from my friend playing the fighter). So that's at least two classes (druid and cleric) that completely overshadow the fighter archetype, and thus two core classes (the metric of comparison) are by your definition completely broken and thus should be banned. Not banned, nerfed. Nerfing the cleric is as simple as not allowing noncore material. The druid generally requires removing the broke polymorph mechanics. Now, if you allow the cleric or druid, but you don't allow the comparatively weaker psion for reasons of broken-ness or archetype theft, doesn't that make you a hypocrite? I generally don't ban. I nerf. I will be the first to tell you that the core druid as written is broke. I dont' allow the core druid as written, just like I don't allow the core psion either. When people start spouting crap about how it's balanced, then I will quite strongly disagree with them. The same is true of psionics. I'm not sure how you can call me a hypocrite.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-05, 08:08 PM	Heck, even rope trick makes it so nobody can find you, and that's a 2nd level spell. Your dm makes rope trick unfindable? wow.. now that is way outside of the rules. This isn't too realistic. If you're invading some guys fortress, probably setting alarms off and everything, are you going to give them 5 minutes per battle to prepare for you? Especially if you've got buffs that can wear out. Honestly it's not very plausible for PCs to be dumb and wait around for their buffs to fade. They'll be time to loot corpses and ID treasure after everyone is dead. Of course there is still healing that needs to be done, traps that need to be found, potential for scouting, maybe even needing to move around slowly and sneakily while searching. 5 minutes per encounter doesnt seem like a bad average. Especially since a single encounter could last upwards of 30 minutes without too much difficulty and no dm fiats. Also, a trap doesnt have to be something deadly, it could be something as simple as a bell that goes off whenever someone passes a certain point (like, say, a door). Alerting the enemy that you are present can be a very bad move sometimes. Moving too fast can be bad, moving too slowly can be bad, not searching for traps can be bad, not healing up can be bad, trying to rush through a set of encounters quickly in order to take advantage of very short term buffs is going to cause a pretty major problem a good portion of the time (perhaps even all). Monte is right and I agree with him. But isn't this actually an indication that the psi HB has problems considering it uses 1 min/level extensively? Do you mean beyond the fact that the core does it all over? So, dont you actually mean that it is a problem with all types of magic? Not banned, nerfed. Nerfing the cleric is as simple as not allowing noncore material. The druid generally requires removing the broke polymorph mechanics. Not allowing noncore wont make the cleric not overpowered, he is overpowered just fine in the core alone. And I suppose for the second part you mean, 'the druid is fine so long as you remove wildshape'. But then, that doesnt actually fix any problems. I don't allow the core psion Of course the psion is only unbalanced in very minor ways compared with much of the core, and most of the unbalanced points come from things that are based off of unbalance things in the core anyway (shapechange anyone?) so by 'fixing' one of the spells you can fix the power at the same time. Considering what it is being compared to the psion is almost a perfect example of balanced, it just has a few issues here and there.. maybe they will fix up the rest in 4.0.
Bacris 11-30-05, 09:09 PM	Scion, you're arguing with a member of the "Nerf Magic Foundation" Of course his answer to everything is to nerf spells, powers, and spell-like abilities... He's only going to have 1 encounter per day in his game and to heck with anyone else.
Scion of Coldshard 11-30-05, 09:13 PM	Scion, you're arguing with a member of the "Nerf Magic Foundation" True, but I disagree with him so often I figured why break the chain? ;)
Archtyrant Terevoth 12-01-05, 03:27 AM	Your dm makes rope trick unfindable? wow.. now that is way outside of the rules. Well, the spell effect works on the rope, which you pull inside the extradimensional space. Now while you may or may not be able to see it with detect magic or see invisibility, it doens't matter because there's no way to get in. To do so you have to dispel the rope itself, which you can't because it's inside the RT. Further, if you combine RT with teleport, you can basically teleport to some random spot (like the middle of some forest) and cast the RT, then go inside. While you can possibly scry into it, everyone gets a +5 bonus to their saves for effectively being on another plane. Not to mention if you do it correctly, there won't be enough space to teleport inside the RT even if the enemy somehow scries you. There's no way to force people out of the RT, and there's no great way to attack them while they're inside it. The best you can do is set up an ambush for when they emerge from it, but they can also see out of the RT and emerge fully buffed. Alternately, they can choose to plane shift somewhere else instead of emerging through the main entrance to the RT. There really isn't a heck of a lot you can do against rope trick if the party is smart about it. 5 minutes per encounter doesnt seem like a bad average. Especially since a single encounter could last upwards of 30 minutes without too much difficulty and no dm fiats. 30 minutes? Maybe a conversation encounter... but not the kind where you're breaking into a guy's fortress. The easiest way to conserve time is to do everything in rounds. So long as you stay in round by round actions, you'll find you save a great deal of time. In general 30 minute + spaces between encounters are for wilderness encounters, but by the time you've hit high levels you've got flight and teleport so you rarely even have wilderness encounters. You use some magic like clairvoyance or scry and then teleport to avoid the wilderness altogether. Also, a trap doesnt have to be something deadly, it could be something as simple as a bell that goes off whenever someone passes a certain point (like, say, a door). Alerting the enemy that you are present can be a very bad move sometimes. Well, this pretty much happens anyway if you're hanging around the enemy fortress for 30 minutes per encounter instead of moving on. There's a reason real life SWAT teams do rapid room to room sweeps maximizing surprise. It's very effective and it works. Do you mean beyond the fact that the core does it all over? So, dont you actually mean that it is a problem with all types of magic? Actually the core doesn't do it all that much, at least not with many important buffs. The big name divine buffs are all 1 round/level or 1 minute fixed, as is haste, and most of the other really good ones. Enlarge is about the only one offhand that I can think of that is a serious break to Monte's rule. Psionics uses the duration much more readily. Virtually every psibuff has it. Not allowing noncore wont make the cleric not overpowered, he is overpowered just fine in the core alone. Well, there are certain spells which are overpowered and just need to be toned down period (like gate and anything using polymorph mechanics). But for the most part, the cleric isn't all that bad with just core, at least not from a buff standpoint. To make a buff cleric you absolutely have to have Complete divine otherwise the cleric isn't that great of a choice. He spends all his high level slots on quickened divine powers, divine favors and righteous mights, and is wasting lots of actions buffing. He finally wades into battle only to have little effect, especially after the errata to RM and DF. And I suppose for the second part you mean, 'the druid is fine so long as you remove wildshape'. But then, that doesnt actually fix any problems. Sure it does. The poly mechanics are basically what breaks the druid. Aside from shapechange and wildshape (and possibly fire seeds), the druid list isn't all that great. Take away his shapechanging ability or limit him to only normal (non-dire) animals and remarkably the druid isn't all that uber. He's still good, but in no way will he dominate someone's game. Of course the psion is only unbalanced in very minor ways compared with much of the core, and most of the unbalanced points come from things that are based off of unbalance things in the core anyway (shapechange anyone?) so by 'fixing' one of the spells you can fix the power at the same time. Well, while it is true that some legacy mechanics, like shapeshifting contribute to psionic problems. I think the problem goes deeper than that. It's about two things, which are actually the same problem: extra combat actions. -Extra action powers (schism, temporal acceleration, fission, hustle, etc.). These are the heart and soul of the nova. No extra actions = no nova problems. -1 minute/level buffs, which allow prebuffing, effectively granting extra actions. If you fix those, you'll pretty much fix psionics.
Archtyrant Terevoth 12-01-05, 03:58 AM	Of course his answer to everything is to nerf spells, powers, and spell-like abilities... He's only going to have 1 encounter per day in his game and to heck with anyone else. The one encounter per day balance paradigm is an important one to consider, mainly because NPCs in every game go by it almost all the time. Yeah, sure some people are going to point out the rare encounter where an NPC wizard cast a few spells prior to a battle or something similar, but we all know someone is lying through their teeth if they try to say that depleted NPCs are the norm. Regardless of how you run your PCs, your NPCs virtually ignore resource depletion based balance, and so this means that you probably shouldn't have nova abilities at all, not if the DM is expected to play his NPCs tactically. Other instances where 1 encounter per day is the norm. Wilderness Travel: The archetypical wilderness 'random encounter' is almost always a 1 encounter/day deal. It's very rare that you're going to be travelling 6 days and all of a sudden have 3+ random encounters on one day. Dragon Lair: Many times you may feature a dragon's lair as the quest point. It includes a dragon lair, possibly with some traps, but mainly with one monster encounter, a large 'boss battle' with a dragon. Proactive PCs: Any PCs that follow their own ambitions as opposed to being railroaded into some contrived super time sensetive quest have the option of creating 1 encounter days whenever they want. 'have an encounter, teleport away and rest' is highly effective. You really can just win by attrition. Duels: Any climactic battle at high noon is both a cinematic staple and also a strong source of one battle/day theme. So with all that and more, it's very hard to just dismiss one battle per day as a minor and trivial concern. Anyone who has ever run an NPC wizard or psion can pretty much tell you that one battle/day is a real concern balance wise.
Bacris 12-01-05, 08:07 AM	Your NPCs only use up all resources in one encounter if you let them. They're most likely adventurers too if they're over 5th level - so they should know that anything could happen later in the day. Why would it be any different for them than the NPCs just because the spotlight isn't on them?
Votan 12-01-05, 09:05 AM	Your NPCs only use up all resources in one encounter if you let them. They're most likely adventurers too if they're over 5th level - so they should know that anything could happen later in the day. Why would it be any different for them than the NPCs just because the spotlight isn't on them? A CR appropriate encounter would be a single 5th level NPC agaisnt a 5th level party. If the odds were reversed, a PC would see themselves in mortal danger and figth with everything possible to survive this overwhelming challenge. A later encoutner is irrevlevant if you don't survive this one and one is generally terribly overmatched. I'd gamble on using all resources and not being attacked again the same day . . .
Dark_beebles 12-01-05, 09:33 AM	I dont think psionics in of itself is overpowered just like anything else. But i do think its easier for them to get way out of hand. Like a psionic warrior being able to do 450 dmg a hit at 10th lvl with a touch attack is a tad wrong in my eyes. With the Mind feeding weapon he could do that infinite times a day as well. The loop holes with certain powers that let people get infinite turns and power points at the cost of nothing but time. Vigor yea its annoying but hardly broken, Its no differant then a druid or cleric casting Greater Vigor aura with the Augmented healing for 15hp a round (to real hp). The only major problem i have with psionics is a full powers but other then that i aint a big fan of them either. Fusion for example is just wrong on so many lvl's. And the ability for psionics to make any power a immediate action is the biggest issue i have. But the ability to make their powers more powerful is at the cost of more power points. They dont have many powers that scale as the lvl like a wizards/sorc fireball for example...They have to spend more power points per cast to be on par with a wizard or sorc. Psionics are more powerful then wizards/sorc on a limited fights der day basis. And they can get out of hand alot quicker and faster..But i dont think their broken by any means. Its up to the DM and the players to make sure that dont happen. I know we all like powerful characters but when 1 PC can take out everything the DM throws at them...its time to sit back and wonder if thats even fun playing at all.
RadicalTaoist 12-01-05, 10:40 AM	Like a psionic warrior being able to do 450 dmg a hit at 10th lvl with a touch attack is a tad wrong in my eyes. With the Mind feeding weapon he could do that infinite times a day as well. I don't suppose you'd like to reread the rules on Deep Impact and mindfeeders and tell me how you pulled that off, please? Just curious. The loop holes with certain powers that let people get infinite turns and power points at the cost of nothing but time. lol, Synchronicity is unforgivable, fortunately it's out of the XPH. I houseruled it to a swift action power that grants you, for one round, the ability to ready actions without the normal restrictions as the power implied. Since it never gives extra actions in that form and passing it through an AF only gives others that ability, abuse is impossible. Fusion for example is just wrong on so many lvl's. Now this is one I don't hear about very often. Out of curiosity, what don't you like about Fusion? And the ability for psionics to make any power a immediate action is the biggest issue i have. :confused:Where's this?
Nephlite 12-01-05, 11:04 AM	I dont think psionics in of itself is overpowered just like anything else. But i do think its easier for them to get way out of hand. Like a psionic warrior being able to do 450 dmg a hit at 10th lvl with a touch attack is a tad wrong in my eyes. With the Mind feeding weapon he could do that infinite times a day as well. Explain that one to me. Frenzied berserker beats that any day though. The loop holes with certain powers that let people get infinite turns and power points at the cost of nothing but time. There are no loopholes to get infinite pp. Even the Metamind makes you loses many manifestor's worths of pp (and manifestor levels) to get the Level 10 power that makes you not waste pp for a few minutes 1/day. The only major problem i have with psionics is a full powers but other then that i aint a big fan of them either. Fusion for example is just wrong on so many lvl's. And the ability for psionics to make any power a immediate action is the biggest issue i have. Have you seen Fusion in action? Or is this just a guess at what might be done? Do you mean make a few powers that allow augmentation to immediate or are you confusing Quicken Power metapsionics with immediate action? Quicken is a swift action not immediate. But the ability to make their powers more powerful is at the cost of more power points. They dont have many powers that scale as the lvl like a wizards/sorc fireball for example...They have to spend more power points per cast to be on par with a wizard or sorc. Agreed, they have to pay to extra PP to be equal to Arcane or divine magic in some areas. This is called balance. Alsi they have no illusion, Necromancy, etc. Psionics are more powerful then wizards/sorc on a limited fights der day basis. And they can get out of hand alot quicker and faster..But i dont think their broken by any means. Its up to the DM and the players to make sure that dont happen. I know we all like powerful characters but when 1 PC can take out everything the DM throws at them...its time to sit back and wonder if thats even fun playing at all. Nope, Wizards are more powerful at limited fights/day. Psionics can do the same thing as Wizards but they burn out faster and out of all PP. Wizards can nova at least 2/day with a few levels 1's or cantrips left. (maning they can still fight) If the Psion take out the dudes the DM throws send multiple weaker guys. He won't be able to nova and you'll be able to fight some dudes.
DisposableHero_ 12-01-05, 11:21 AM	:confused:Where's this?I think he has some misconceptions about Opportunity Power (that or he's talking about sucking away his next round with anticipatory strike and using that to manifest the power)
Archtyrant Terevoth 12-01-05, 12:14 PM	A CR appropriate encounter would be a single 5th level NPC agaisnt a 5th level party. If the odds were reversed, a PC would see themselves in mortal danger and figth with everything possible to survive this overwhelming challenge. A later encoutner is irrevlevant if you don't survive this one and one is generally terribly overmatched. I'd gamble on using all resources and not being attacked again the same day . . . You said it much more eloquently than I could.
RadicalTaoist 12-01-05, 12:24 PM	I think he has some misconceptions about Opportunity Power (that or he's talking about sucking away his next round with anticipatory strike and using that to manifest the power) That would be a mistaken assumption with both, then. While we're at it. Yeah, sure some people are going to point out the rare encounter where an NPC wizard cast a few spells prior to a battle or something similar, but we all know someone is lying through their teeth if they try to say that depleted NPCs are the norm. Wizards are different, simply because preparation is their biggest strength. A wizard with half his spell slots available who's been given time to prepare is a challenge for a wizard with all his spell slots who hasn't. Regardless of how you run your PCs, your NPCs virtually ignore resource depletion based balance, and so this means that you probably shouldn't have nova abilities at all, not if the DM is expected to play his NPCs tactically. Would playing a guerilla-warfare type wizard loaded with Reverse Gravity spells, Walls of Force, Cloudkills, Crushing Hands, etc. etc. who uses hit-and-D. Door tactics on the party called playing tactically? Because, even at a CR lower than the party, that can be a posible TPK even at high levels. Ditto for archers outdoors using hit-and-run. In both cases resource management is important as the NPC wants to shred the PCs a little bit over time. Other instances where 1 encounter per day is the norm. Wilderness Travel: The archetypical wilderness 'random encounter' is almost always a 1 encounter/day deal. It's very rare that you're going to be travelling 6 days and all of a sudden have 3+ random encounters on one day. And yet it's rarely challenging. I can't remember the last time a single wilderness encounter a day scared me. Throw 3+ encounters per day of wilderness travel and you start to have an actual challenge. This also fairly represents the dangerous wildernesses of your campaign setting - the jungles of Chult or Xen'drik, for example. Dragon Lair: Many times you may feature a dragon's lair as the quest point. It includes a dragon lair, possibly with some traps, but mainly with one monster encounter, a large 'boss battle' with a dragon. A trap, and useful enough magic items in the dragon's hoarde that the dragon can actually use can add up to a bump in CR of one or two or even three. And one encounter per day can be balanced, for psions or anyone else, if it's 4-5 CR over the party's ECL. That said, dragons are painful to fight and easy to optimize in almost every way. A simple disguise self used by the red dragon masquerading as a white dragon can mean a TPK simply due to changing the kind of preparation the PCs will do. Proactive PCs: Any PCs that follow their own ambitions as opposed to being railroaded into some contrived super time sensetive quest have the option of creating 1 encounter days whenever they want. 'have an encounter, teleport away and rest' is highly effective. You really can just win by attrition. This is the one that gets me all the time when we debate, AT. Nearly every archetypal fantasy story is 'some contrived super time sensitive quest'. Whereas going SWAT on enemies who stand around in their dungeon rooms waiting to be ambushed is realistic, especially as you can kill the BBEG whenever you want, his evil plan won't go into effect in the meanwhile. No ramifications for time sounds like a story to me, yes sir. Frankly, if your DM lets you do whatever you want, you've got a cakewalk with optimized characters. You've got railroading aplenty - and it's the players railroading the DM. I could rock with a Fighter in that kind of game. Hell, I could probably rock with a Healer. At this point you might as well play Dungeon Siege or Diablo II or FFXI. And even then they go show some sense. If you bragged about how ub3r your char is who can decimate enemies one at a time and then has to run back to town, all the people with characters who can clear entire areas without rest would laugh at you. I find it rather silly to hold the paradigm that psions are overpowered except in an actual challenging campaign, where they suddenly miraculously balance. Please. Duels: Any climactic battle at high noon is both a cinematic staple and also a strong source of one battle/day theme. True. At the high levels, though, PVP is a matter of initiative. So with all that and more, it's very hard to just dismiss one battle per day as a minor and trivial concern. Anyone who has ever run an NPC wizard or psion can pretty much tell you that one battle/day is a real concern balance wise. One battle/day is balanced ideally for anyone if that battle is of a CR 4-5 above the party level (depending on the amount of preparation the party gets as well as other factors; if they know their enemy's weaknesses and are prepared and get the advantage of surprise, make it CR +5 or maybe even CR +6). I'm not finding psions unbalanced, overpowered, or weak in those situations. I find 'em just right.
Rhonin the Big 12-02-05, 02:31 PM	I played a lawful evil xeph telepath today, and he is the party's magical diplomat/nuker. I know that when I hit a certain level I can fire off 5 concussion blasts in 1 round (twin concussion blast with split ray and schism) but I will pay for that when I need to goto sleep in 1d3 more encounters. Like magic, power points at highest level feel like they never run out but thats highest level. Can psionics be abused? Hell yea! Does that make it overpowered? No. The potential for abuse does not break psionics, breaking psionics breaks psionics. If I can fire off 5 concussion blasts at 7th manifester level its overpowered, but the font of power/time stop/infinite twin syncronicity combo made famous by Pun-pun the new Kurtulmac does not make psionics overpowered. I dont think psionics in of itself is overpowered just like anything else. But i do think its easier for them to get way out of hand. Like a psionic warrior being able to do 450 dmg a hit at 10th lvl with a touch attack is a tad wrong in my eyes. With the Mind feeding weapon he could do that infinite times a day as well. Nothing a psychic warrior or soulknife can do is overpowered, I dont care what anybody says! The psionic weapon feats are overated, sure you do +huge greatsword extra damage OR make your weapon hit touch AC, but you gotta gain psionic focus. Now making the check doesnt matter, I can do it at 7th level always if I don't critically fumble, but try and use psionic weapon in melee and you eat an AoO and I think a defender is denied his dex bonus to AC when his mind has left his body via intense concentration. Not to mention expend focus feats only work for 1 attack, so you miss and you wasted a good expended focus you hit and you gotta do it again next round. My elan soulknife practically relied on deep impact with his mind blade to hit opponents in melee cuz of his medium Base attack. Is it powerful? Yes. Does it come at a price? Hell yea! Also, opportunity power is the most useless meta-anything feat I have ever seen! Sure you can do somed10 points of damage when an opponent gives you an AoO, but what Psion is stupid enough to get that close? Give a cleric, druid or possibly sorcerer that and you got a problem (think greater bestow curse on an AoO) but since psions dont really have as many overpowered touch spells that I can think of at the moment it wont break the game but it just sucks. The loop holes with certain powers that let people get infinite turns and power points at the cost of nothing but time. Nothing about any psionic prestige class is overpowered with the exception of the thrallherd and his domination (I can attempt to dominate anything by only spending 1 power point? That great wyrm black dragon is now my ***** for the duration of the power!). Font of power is another example of something only psionics can get away with, once a day for a minute you have infinite power points. Try to give something like that to clerics, druids or sorcerers (once a day for a minute you become a solar angel who can cast any spell he has prepared at will) and you have just broken everything at once! Besides, metaminds may be all about power points but he loses a lot of manifester level in the process, so he may be able to spend alot of power points but only upto 15 on a single power to augment. As for the clerics and druids being overpowered argument, GOOD! :D I love clerics and I hate undead, I'm glad their overpowered. Sure they can cast a few crazy-powerful spells (name me at least 3 that are too strong to ever pray for and I will have them prepared at all times) but I'm glad they can cuz clerics save lives. As for polymorph being overpowered, thats the fault of the monster you are polymorphing. I got your fix for that, only polymorph into medium humanoids! Screw firbolgs and sarruks if you hate polymorph, just polymorph into what you already are. Speaking of clerics, is there a CO record for most damage healed?
The Vorpal Tribble 01-18-06, 11:14 AM	I was noticing something of late when I was choosing out feats for a psionic character of mine. I was going to give him Great Fortitude, but then realized, wait, Psicrystal Affinity gives me the same benefits PLUS the psicrystal itself. In fact, only one doesn't make another feat obsolete, Psicrystal Affinity (Nimble). It only gives a +2 bonus opposed to Improved Initiative's +4. However, all the others appear to be at least as good, and in the case of the Artiste even better, than their equivalent feats, before you even take into account they also get the crystal itself. Another example, what is the point in taking Narrow Mind, when you can take Psicrystal Affinity (Single-Minded) and get a +3 bonus to 'any' concentration check plus the psicrystal itself. The only drawback I see is that the psicrystal can be destroyed. However, if you hide it, thats not likely to happen. Is this one weakness worthy of a feat plus a special crystal? Bringing it up before someone else does (unless someone has and I missed it), and if it can be explained maybe it should go on the Myths list. -=-=-=-=-=- Psicrystal Affinity (Artiste) = Skill Focus (Craft), except the psicrystal gives you the bonus to ANY craft, while Skill Focus only gives you a bonus to a type of craft, like woodworking or weaponsmithing. Psicrystal Affinity (Bully) = Skill Focus (Intimidate) Psicrystal Affinity (Coward) = Skill Focus (Hide) Psicrystal Affinity (Friendly) = Skill Focus (Diplomacy) Psicrystal Affinity (Hero) = Great Fortitude Psicrystal Affinity (Liar) = Skill Focus (Bluff) Psicrystal Affinity (Meticulous) = Skill Focus (Search) Psicrystal Affinity (Observant) = Skill Focus (Spot) Psicrystal Affinity (Poised) = Skill Focus (Balance) Psicrystal Affinity (Resolved) = Iron Will Psicrystal Affinity (Sage) = Skill Focus (Knowledge: <any>) Psicrystal Affinity (Single-Minded) = Skill Focus (Concentration) Psicrystal Affinity (Sneaky) = Skill Focus (Move Silently) Psicrystal Affinity (Sympathetic) = Skill Focus (Sense Motive)
Ipsissimus 01-18-06, 11:24 AM	IMO a psicrystal can very well be worth the feat investment, being a construct it has several advantages over the standard familiars. It can keep watch indefinately, contact you or others silently with telepathy, it's "sighted" which is a decent bonus, it can fly, etc etc. Then there are many psicrystals/psion combos one of the more common ones being: share pain/vigor and metamorphing you and sharing it with your psicrystal for double the threat. Plus if you should take the route of using metapsionic feats and psicrystal containment it's pretty nice. there's more but just browse the boards, there's plenty of threads that give more detail to what you can do and of course what you DM may or may not allow.
red_scare87 01-18-06, 11:26 AM	I was noticing something of late when I was choosing out feats for a psionic character of mine. I was going to give him Great Fortitude, but then realized, wait, Psicrystal Affinity gives me the same benefits PLUS the psicrystal itself. Well, think about it this way: A wizard's familiar grants a wizard the same type of bonuses as psicrystals do, plus the other cool things familiars can do. And wizards don't have to burn a feat to get a familiar.
Scion of Coldshard 01-18-06, 11:33 AM	Note that the familiar does the same effectively.. it grants you a feat from a very select list under certain circumstances (pretty much that your pet is alive). The skill focus feats arent exactly power houses of doom on the power level, and skill focus (concentration) is basically always better to take than any of the '+4 when casting/manifesting defensively' feats. Maybe the skill focus feats should be made more worthwhile in some way.. perhaps allowing the person to count as one level higher for max ranks or something. But yes, it is much better to pick up a psicrystal feat and get the same benefit instead of getting the other feat (or with craft a better benefit, or with initiative a worse benefit). One could also pick up the familiar feat out of complete arcane (although it has steeper requirements) and do the same thing. Overall though, is it a problem that someone could gain the benefit of one of the weaker feats along with the other benefit? Oh, and the benefit even stacks with the skill focus/whatever feats! So you could spend two feats and get twice the benefit (generally). Would it be worthwhile to spend two feats for a +4 to your fort save? maybe, although the option is only really open to a few classes (some get the first +2 as a class feature).
The Vorpal Tribble 01-18-06, 12:00 PM	Note that the familiar does the same effectively.. it grants you a feat from a very select list under certain circumstances (pretty much that your pet is alive). Well, familiars aren't quite as useful either, which is why I assumed mages got them automatically instead of having to spend a feat. #1. Being a construct, the psicrystal has all the immunities that come with it. #2. A psicrystal can speak and communicate mind to mind with his master, a familiar cannot speak, and only has an empathic link. #3. The psicrystal has at least 5 additional variations, and I'm not certain that there is a magical equivalent to Improved Psicrystal. #4. The psicrystal does not eat, breathe, defecate or get bored. And in various other ways the psicrystal is superior to the familiar. Overall though, is it a problem that someone could gain the benefit of one of the weaker feats along with the other benefit? Quite possibly, as with a couple of my bards in particular I've used Skill Focus.
Scion of Coldshard 01-18-06, 12:20 PM	Well, familiars aren't quite as useful either, which is why I assumed mages got them automatically instead of having to spend a feat. Not quite as useful? I am not sure what you mean.. familiars tend to have their own abilities, such as movement mode or combat modes or whatever. Have you seen the attack spread of a cat? 1st level commoner vs. cat and the cat might actually win! toss in some extra hp for being a familiar and maybe a spell or two (mage armor?) and there is some power. Oh, and alterself early on can be even more impressive than it already is ;) Quite possibly, as with a couple of my bards in particular I've used Skill Focus. The bard could pick up a familiar pretty easily.. maybe he should look into it?
RadicalTaoist 01-18-06, 03:39 PM	I would think this is a problem more with the skill focus feats than the psicrystal affinity feat. I just don't see a problem with a mere +3 to a cross-class skill most of the time.
Sir Elton 01-18-06, 04:10 PM	. . . or get bored. Actually, I love to think that a particular Psycrystal has it's own personality. Some how a comepletely more pronounced trait than what your PC shows. For instance, a Hero personality can be loud and obnoxious. Sincerely praising, but obnoxious about it. "Your Da Man!", "You've got what it takes, sugar!" "You've got a great gluteus maximus!" and all of these sorts. The Sage can be the type that likes to talk about things. You can't shut him up. The coward, is well, a coward -- only more pronounced. However, I can guarantee you that the Psycrystal will get bored. Especially if you play in my game.
Rhonin the Big 01-19-06, 11:36 PM	Psicrystals make a better scout than some rogues, sighted out to 40ft beats the hell out of any spot check, a diminutive construct can stay hidden indefinitely, and grants good bonuses. However they dont fight and unless you give your crystal legs outside of combat you hold the little thing in your hand, which can get annoying. The concept of a little glowing crystal floating around with you is more annoying than any familiar, especially my psion's crystal who I roleplayed like those blue think-tanks from ghost in the shell standalone complex with the annoying high-pitched voice. However, familiars grant alot of the abilities of a psicrystal, sharing spells, delivering touch spells, alertness etc. Except familiars can move by themselves, they are more subtle than a little floating brain crystal and can actually do damage of some sort. Not to mention improved familiars, golems and guardians none of which psions can get and all of them can save the wizard/sorcerer's life! Yet a psicrystals sight beyond sight can help his owner aim his powers even in pitch-black darkness, and its good for communication unless the person your crystal talks to telepathically hates having voices inside his head.
Scion of Coldshard 01-19-06, 11:54 PM	sighted out to 40ft beats the hell out of any spot check ?? sighted works just like normal sight.. so you still have to make spot checks as normal. Only being able to see 40' ahead can be a detriment on occasion.. such as when things are 41'+ away ;) Being able to 'see' in magical darkness is pretty cool though! Although, are there even any spells left which create actual darkness instead of shadowy illumination which anyone can see in?
Lokiyn 03-02-06, 10:07 PM	This Really needs to be linked on the first page http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8525321&postcount=11
ramzafft1 03-19-06, 11:24 PM	Excellent thread. Makes a great continuation of the first. Bump! :bump:
sir_dwar 03-24-06, 04:57 PM	Ok, I love the EPH... Can't waite for Complete Psionics... But I have ONE, and only one, problem with the system, and here it is... 10th level powers for non-epic games Ok, Here's the problem... An agmented power can reach 10th level (effective) at 19th level, where as a wizard needs to be at least 21st level. However, as far as I can see, theres not much we can do about it without causing problems, so I guess its just gonna have to stay there...
Sithobi1 03-24-06, 05:02 PM	10th level only in the sense that they have +10 to DC instead of whatever else they had before...The actual increase in power is not any greater than it is at 17th level.
sir_dwar 03-24-06, 05:11 PM	THat's something the (idiots) who think psionics are overpowered never noticed. But again, we pay insane to get it.... If anything, they are UNDERPOWERD......
sir_dwar 03-24-06, 05:12 PM	10th level only in the sense that they have +10 to DC instead of whatever else they had before...The actual increase in power is not any greater than it is at 17th level. Good point...
Tempest Stormwind 03-24-06, 06:56 PM	10th level only in the sense that they have +10 to DC instead of whatever else they had before...The actual increase in power is not any greater than it is at 17th level. The way I explain it to those idiots is as follows: "What's the highest level of spells your wizard can currently cast?" "5th, why?" "Okay, what if you had no 5th level spells, but had the slots. You have Heighten Spell if you want to use those slots, but it won't change the actual level of the spells, meaning a Minor Globe still works." "That'd suck!" "But you wouldn't actually have 5th level spells, would you? And the spells you do have wouldn't be anywhere near as useful as actual 5th level spells, either?" "No..." "Think about it."
sir_dwar 03-24-06, 06:58 PM	The way I explain it to those idiots is as follows: "What's the highest level of spells your wizard can currently cast?" "5th, why?" "Okay, what if you had no 5th level spells, but had the slots. You have Heighten Spell if you want to use those slots, but it won't change the actual level of the spells, meaning a Minor Globe still works." "That'd suck!" "But you wouldn't actually have 5th level spells, would you? And the spells you do have wouldn't be anywhere near as useful as actual 5th level spells, either?" "No..." "Think about it."I'm not one of the people who think psionics are overpowered... see my sig... EDIT:I just added a link to this thread in my sig now
Khelvaster 04-09-06, 02:28 AM	Myth 22: The Overchannel feat is too strong Answer: The Overchannel feat, for those unfamiliar, allows you to boost your effective manifester level by up to 3, thereby letting you spend more power points on powers than would normally be allowed. The downsides to this are that: a) You must spend a feat on Overchannel b) You take damage for using the feat (1d8 for 1 point, 3d8 for 2 points, 5d8 for 3 points) c) The boost is capped at 3 extra manifester levels and no more To avoid taking the damage, you can take yet another feat, Talented, which allows you to avoid the damage - but only up to 3rd level powers - and you must epend psionic focus to do so. What this means is that if you want to Overchannel every round, you need a 3rd feat - Psionic Meditation - to do so, otherwise it's every other round. This boost is offset by the extra power point cost to the already limited power point pool, the need to take anywhere from 1-3 feats out of the 12-13 you get as a (human) psion, and the fact that, for damage-based powers, after 7-8th level, Empower Power is more efficient and costs fewer power points, as well as one-two fewer feats. This still does not stop you from having a level nine psion that started with 16 INT using point buy, improved his int by 2 through level ups, and who used almost all his money on a headband of intellect +4 (and if need be, the rest of the party chipped in). He can be using an overchanneled, talented, maximum augmented, augmented penetration'd, fire-type energy missile on three illithids that are standing within 15 feet of each other, bursting through their SR because of the +19 to penetrate SR right now, requiring a reflex save DC 26 or 27 (impossible for mind flayers to make), and doing 10d6+10 damage thanks to the fire. If he rolls good, he can kill all the illithids in one round. The average damage is 45 damage, which is just enough to knock an illithid unconsious. Right now this is 50% chance to have one CR 9 person beat a CR 12 encounter in one round, assuming he wins initiative. If he gets low damage, he can throw out another augment penetration'd, augment'd energy missile to kill the rest. If the scatter, energy ball. Almost guaranteed CR 9 killing CR 12. This can be done once per encounter too, because each one of those missiles takes 10 PP, and the psion has a little over 80 PP total and can refocus after battle. A psion could easily do this four times a day, so saying that PP makes up for this isn't a valid argument. The fact of the matter is that even though this cost the psion all of his feats, the effect of using all his feats on this is overpowered. Feat expenditure does not make something any less overpowered. Saying that pun-pun isn't overpowered because he had to spend feats doesn't mean anything. The same applies to psions. An 8 times per day nova that kills things three CRs above your level in one round is broken, whether you like it or not.
BloodSpill 04-09-06, 05:53 AM	Where's the psionics is underpowered thread?
Nephlite 04-09-06, 08:05 AM	This still does not stop you from having a level nine psion that started with 16 INT using point buy, improved his int by 2 through level ups, and who used almost all his money on a headband of intellect +4 (and if need be, the rest of the party chipped in). He can be using an overchanneled, talented, maximum augmented, augmented penetration'd, fire-type energy missile on three illithids that are standing within 15 feet of each other, bursting through their SR because of the +19 to penetrate SR right now, requiring a reflex save DC 26 or 27 (impossible for mind flayers to make), and doing 10d6+10 damage thanks to the fire. If he rolls good, he can kill all the illithids in one round. The average damage is 45 damage, which is just enough to knock an illithid unconsious. Right now this is 50% chance to have one CR 9 person beat a CR 12 encounter in one round, assuming he wins initiative. If he gets low damage, he can throw out another augment penetration'd, augment'd energy missile to kill the rest. If the scatter, energy ball. Almost guaranteed CR 9 killing CR 12. How often will smart creatures like Illithids do stupid things like group up that close? They are just yelling for a Fireball, cone of cold, etc. Second, Talented to avoid Overchannel damage waste Focus. In your example: he didn't regain focus so he can't do it every round: he has to do it every other round now. Energy Ball is Discipline specific or waste a feat on it. This can be done once per encounter too, because each one of those missiles takes 10 PP, and the psion has a little over 80 PP total and can refocus after battle. A psion could easily do this four times a day, so saying that PP makes up for this isn't a valid argument. If you refocus after, youcan't do exactly that. You'd only be able to do best blast 1/battle, rest are weaker. The fact of the matter is that even though this cost the psion all of his feats, the effect of using all his feats on this is overpowered. Feat expenditure does not make something any less overpowered. Saying that pun-pun isn't overpowered because he had to spend feats doesn't mean anything. The same applies to psions. An 8 times per day nova that kills things three CRs above your level in one round is broken, whether you like it or not. Pun-Pun is overpowered because Wizards can become it at level 5.
Scion of Coldshard 04-09-06, 07:33 PM	This still does not stop you from having a level nine psion that started with 16 INT using point buy, improved his int by 2 through level ups, and who used almost all his money on a headband of intellect +4 (and if need be, the rest of the party chipped in). He can be using an overchanneled, talented, maximum augmented, augmented penetration'd, fire-type energy missile on three illithids that are standing within 15 feet of each other, bursting through their SR because of the +19 to penetrate SR right now, requiring a reflex save DC 26 or 27 9th psion 4 feats 2 bonus psion psicrystal, psicrystal containment, overchannel, talented, power penetration, greater power penetration Must be a kineticist So he uses all of his feats and has two foci stored. When he blasts he uses up both foci so that he doesnt take any damage. Energy missile: 9th base +2 overchannel = 11th manifestor level Fire damage = 11d6+11 (avg 49.5) Vs PR = +19 (+11 level +8 greater power penetration) Save DC = 26 (10 base +2 level +6 int +8 aug) Foes must be standing within 15' of one another. If this fails he wont be able to do anything anywhere near as effective for the rest of this combat. Basically a single hit against illprepared foes can do something effective. Any sort of spells or abilities or items for energy resistance would let the mindflayers survive. Standing a decent amount apart would allow them to survive. Any of them going first and getting off a mindblast which stunned the psion would allow them to win. The fact of the matter is that even though this cost the psion all of his feats, the effect of using all his feats on this is overpowered. Given a similar situation (or equally beneficial to certain builds) there are all kinds of different builds of just about every class that would allow for a similar situation (at least for a single mind flayer certainly). A maximized (rod) blast of flame (complete arcane) would allow for a caster type to win against dozens of mindflayers all at the same time (assuming that they roll poorly on their saves). Plus it takes a whole lot less resources ;) An 8 times per day nova that kills things three CRs above your level in one round is broken, whether you like it or not. 8 times a day in a difficult situation using all of your resources with a significant chance of failure and death? Well, I suppose that could be one way of defining broken.. but I'd say that the druid is still much more broken, he can do his tricks way more than 8 times a day..lol Edit: Just thought I should mention. The post I am quoting is basically a CR 9 psion vs a CR 9 creature and the winning either way tends to come down to initiative but whoever wins doesnt use many resources, that is about standard for what it should be. The other creatures just so happening to stand in close proximity doesnt do much except make it 'much' more likely that the psion will not get initiative and so die. While not perfect it definately does not sound out of line.
Khelvaster 04-10-06, 03:01 PM	What my player does for two of those novas per encounter is to transfer a psionic focus from his psycrystal to him as (apparently) a free action, and also have one within him.
Scion of Coldshard 04-10-06, 03:26 PM	What my player does for two of those novas per encounter is to transfer a psionic focus from his psycrystal to him as (apparently) a free action, and also have one within him. What you described already takes 2 foci, which means that he has to regain both in order to do it again.. and as he has no feat open for psychic meditation then it will take him at least 2 full round actions in order to regain them both. This essentially means that the effect can only happen once per combat. Now, if he was willing to take 3d8 damage then he wouldnt need one of the foci and if he used that extra slot for psychic meditation he could attempt to do it more often, but that has its own issues (such as the 3d8 damage, ow!).
Bacris 04-10-06, 04:02 PM	so you have Illithid stupid enough to bunch up and be caught off guard? That doesn't sound like a CR 12 encounter to me :) I don't care what the MM says.
Rhonin the Big 04-11-06, 07:31 PM	The fact of the matter is that even though this cost the psion all of his feats, the effect of using all his feats on this is overpowered. So the action of combining all your class abilities into a nice big super combo is overpowered? Every class is expected to be able to combine everything they have into whatever, wizards have spell and metamagic combos, fighter-types can combine all these different feats into one charge or full attack action, and psions have their novas. Are you saying that the every PC in the entire multiverse with a shred of optimization is overpowered? This still does not stop you from having a level nine psion that started with 16 INT using point buy, improved his int by 2 through level ups, and who used almost all his money on a headband of intellect +4 (and if need be, the rest of the party chipped in). He can be using an overchanneled, talented, maximum augmented, augmented penetration'd, fire-type energy missile on three illithids that are standing within 15 feet of each other, bursting through their SR because of the +19 to penetrate SR right now, requiring a reflex save DC 26 or 27 (impossible for mind flayers to make), and doing 10d6+10 damage thanks to the fire. If he rolls good, he can kill all the illithids in one round. The average damage is 45 damage, which is just enough to knock an illithid unconsious. Right now this is 50% chance to have one CR 9 person beat a CR 12 encounter in one round, assuming he wins initiative. If he gets low damage, he can throw out another augment penetration'd, augment'd energy missile to kill the rest. If the scatter, energy ball. Almost guaranteed CR 9 killing CR 12. What you described is called optimization, getting 22int at level 9 is the same thing as your fighter having 24str at level 9. Power penetration is useless on several levels because it requires an expended focus for a +4 to overcome Power Resistence, wizards/sorcerers can take that and get the +4 every round. A psion does metapsionic alot worse than an arcane caster does metamagic, they spend higher level spells for maximize and whatnot you spend more power points for the same spell level to be maximized and whatnot. Mindflayers are to psions what angels are to good clerics, the iconic creature of psionic characters. No DM could possibly justify playing a mindflayer encounter like how you described other than "Sorry, I'm on crack." Im not buying it. All the people who never played a psion before with a competant DM and still claim it is broken Implode! Right now, dont delay! Would wizards of the coast spend countless manhours crunching numbers to create an entire new system of doing stuff if it were broken? Would they put it in the System resource doc so you can enjoy this brand new psionics system for free if it were broken? Would I or the veterans on these boards use psionics and love it up if it were broken? Absolutely not.
Senevri 05-03-06, 07:12 AM	Ooh, indeed! Lv9 challenge, 49 damage for two opponents! Hmm. Lv9 Wizard. Imbue Familiar with SLA Scorching Ray Magic Missile Maximise Quicken 1/combat, 48 points vs. single target + 8d6( avg28 ) +5d4+5 ( avg 17 )vs. second. Hmm. Not quite there yet. Needs Spell Specialization or Moilian trickery or... But, nevertheless, not even optimized, just a few good picks, and almost there. Half-orc Barb1/Sor2/Fighter3/RDD2/Fighter1 with Improved Dual-wielding and WF+WS... let's say, short sword, has an attack pattern of +9/+9/+4/+4. Starting STR of 16(+2 racial), DEX of 15, increased to 17 for ITWF from levels. +2 STR from DRD for a total of 20. Thus, while raging, we're at 28 STR, for at least one round. This makes our attack pattern +19/+19/+14/+14 (base +7 -2 twf +2 weapon +9 str +1 weapon focus), with damage of 1d6+13 for each hit. (9 str + 2 weapon +2 WS) Thus, minimum of 56 per round, average of 64,5. Feats would be Improved Init, WF, WS, TWF, ITWF, Power Attack, Cleave. Two points to DEX to raise it to 17. Now, if we had time to cast Enlarge beforehand, we're at 30 STR with -1 to attack, giving us the same attack pattern but +4 total damage per round. Also, our short swords become 1d8s. This finally pulls us to 1d8+14/hit, or 18,5/hit average, for a total of 74/round. We're still not quite there - 96/round is what we're after. Admittedly, a single critical blow would get us there, but chances are, not all of the blows will hit at all. Of course, we can do this for every combat, all day long. On second thought, let's actually _drop_ the last two fighter levels in favor of two more Dragon Disciple, making us Barb1/Ftr2/Sor2/Dragon Disciple 4. This nets us +1 AB, +1 damage, which we can use to power attack for one point, netting the exact equivalent of WF with _any_ weapon. (+0 atk, +2 damage). While this is a neat trick, it doesn't get us any closer to our goal, however. Admittedly, we can power attack for 7 points per blow which would get us to our goal, but then our attack pattern would suck, seeing as how it's +12/+12/+7/+7. Of course, with two more levels we could get the WS on top of that...but that's not here nor there. Now, a pure TWF rogue should have a 20d6 potential damage base here, just from the Sneak Attack damage. Of course, hitting would be the first part of the problem, while getting the SA damage in would be the second...
Rhonin the Big 05-09-06, 10:18 PM	Ooh, indeed! Lv9 challenge, 49 damage for two opponents! Hmm. Lv9 Wizard. Imbue Familiar with SLA Scorching Ray Magic Missile Maximise Quicken 1/combat, 48 points vs. single target + 8d6( avg28 ) +5d4+5 ( avg 17 )vs. second. Hmm. Not quite there yet. Needs Spell Specialization or Moilian trickery or... But, nevertheless, not even optimized, just a few good picks, and almost there. Half-orc Barb1/Sor2/Fighter3/RDD2/Fighter1 with Improved Dual-wielding and WF+WS... let's say, short sword, has an attack pattern of +9/+9/+4/+4. Starting STR of 16(+2 racial), DEX of 15, increased to 17 for ITWF from levels. +2 STR from DRD for a total of 20. Thus, while raging, we're at 28 STR, for at least one round. This makes our attack pattern +19/+19/+14/+14 (base +7 -2 twf +2 weapon +9 str +1 weapon focus), with damage of 1d6+13 for each hit. (9 str + 2 weapon +2 WS) Thus, minimum of 56 per round, average of 64,5. Feats would be Improved Init, WF, WS, TWF, ITWF, Power Attack, Cleave. Two points to DEX to raise it to 17. Now, if we had time to cast Enlarge beforehand, we're at 30 STR with -1 to attack, giving us the same attack pattern but +4 total damage per round. Also, our short swords become 1d8s. This finally pulls us to 1d8+14/hit, or 18,5/hit average, for a total of 74/round. We're still not quite there - 96/round is what we're after. Admittedly, a single critical blow would get us there, but chances are, not all of the blows will hit at all. Of course, we can do this for every combat, all day long. On second thought, let's actually _drop_ the last two fighter levels in favor of two more Dragon Disciple, making us Barb1/Ftr2/Sor2/Dragon Disciple 4. This nets us +1 AB, +1 damage, which we can use to power attack for one point, netting the exact equivalent of WF with _any_ weapon. (+0 atk, +2 damage). While this is a neat trick, it doesn't get us any closer to our goal, however. Admittedly, we can power attack for 7 points per blow which would get us to our goal, but then our attack pattern would suck, seeing as how it's +12/+12/+7/+7. Of course, with two more levels we could get the WS on top of that...but that's not here nor there. Now, a pure TWF rogue should have a 20d6 potential damage base here, just from the Sneak Attack damage. Of course, hitting would be the first part of the problem, while getting the SA damage in would be the second... Wow ... you are really bored. I am too, so Senevri you implode!
lekpic 06-07-06, 05:10 PM	"More input Stephanie..... More!" This is great stuff to read over.
Psychoticpsymon 06-07-06, 05:43 PM	I think, after reading the OP, that psionics is not overpowered when a PC uses it and a competent DM is involved. It is overpowered, however, if the PC is farsighted. If I understand even one of the arguements is that a psion wastes all of it's power in 1 attack, yes, it will destroy. This is open to massive exploitation. If you're party knows the BBEG is coming, the psion can save up till the end and make it quite the lame encounter. Likewise, high level psions fighting PCs can do massive damage, because they are one shot and if it is a small village that rarely has visitors, than expelling all of the psion power is a justifiable attack. That's my opinion with a skim, and I'm probably wrong, but if I help at all I won't known it because after this post I'm unsubscribing. I don't want to be deeply involved with something I don't understand. Bai bai
journeyman777 06-15-06, 04:08 AM	To the pro-Psi posters: Congrats! I had intended to ban the XPH in my games, but now I think I can handle it. You have been quite informative and I do appreciate it. Now I want to play a psionic character. (Though I would note that some of the magic combos you used as examples of broken don't actually work quite as well as you think, if at all) To the anti-Psi poster: You made good points, particularly about the use of swat tactics. Traps are inappropriate for many dungeon environments and there are very few other things that can punish the swat. Those who think encounters are rarely close together in standard play need to take another look at most pre-built adventures. A group of experienced players who intend to swat will blow through a room a minute fairly easily.
Rhonin the Big 06-20-06, 12:42 PM	To Sir Elton (John?) and Bacris: I personally believe psionics is only as overpowered as every other spellcasting class in existence, as in there is an absolute advantage to playing a spellcaster or manifester and a comparative advantage to being a highly-optimized non spellcaster or manifester. However I do have to point out things I disagree with, anything I do not comment on I agree with. Note: I would first like to state that Psionics as a system is based upon the premise set down in the Dungeon Master's Guide that the party will face, on average, 3-4 encounters per day of equal challenge rating to the average party level. Further, Psions are not Wizards. Just as Divine magic can do things Arcane magic cannot, Psionics can do things neither of the others can, and vice versa. As with any system, there are areas that need improvement, others that are inferior, and some that simply need clarification. Psionics is by no means perfect, but if you take into account the way the system is intended to run, it has been, in most psionic players' experience, very balanced. So psionics suddenly become balanced when the DM says and does so? Reminds me of the Oberoni Fallacy, as in becomes balanced when the DM makes it implode. Myth 3: Psychic Warrior feats are too powerful Answer: The majority of combat-enhancing Psionic feats require the expenditure of Psionic Focus, something the majority of characters will only have one of. It is important to understand that Psionic Focus requires a full round action provoking attacks of opportunity to gain and can only power one feat per focus. Further, to fully utilize these feats, the character must take another feat, Psionic Meditation, to regain their focus in a timely manner, otherwise they are useless for a full round while they refocus. A feat-intensive Psychic Warrior, such as one who utilizes Deep Impact + Greater Psionic Weapon each round must have all of the following feats in order to work: Psionic Weapon, Greater Psionic Weapon, Deep Impact, Psicrystal Affinity, Psicrystal Containment, Psionic Meditation For a total of six feats - and that character only gets to make one attack per round and has to use 3 power points to Hustle and provokes two attacks of opportunity in the process and can only take a five foot step. And he can't even benefit from the extra attack granted by Haste or Haste-like effects. Meanwhile, a non-psionic character with Improved Two Weapon Fighting or Dervish levels or similar, can make 5+ attacks per round and take a 5' step without provoking attacks of opportunity or using power points, and without needing extra feats aside from prestige class and high-tier feat prerequisites.. All of those above psionic feats except maybe the psicrystal stuff are optimal choices. Hustle is an optimal spell for psychic warriors as well as expansion for bigger steps. Would you argue the power of the druid because he needs to have Natural Spell, sacred vow and Vow of Poverty? No, they are optimal choices for druids and using their opportunity cost to argue against GBI doesn’t work. Myth 5: Energy Missile is overpowered Answer: Energy Missile is first balanced by being Kineticist only, requiring non-Kineticists to use an Expanded Knowledge feat at 5th level to learn it. For Kineticists, this means they get it at 3rd level, doing 3d6+/-3 to up to 5 targets, one of the strongest damage output low-level powers/spells known. Delaying access to this power until 5th level for even Kineticists might not be uncalled for if you find the damage potential abused despite efforts to the contrary. Energy Missile's power of multiple targets is partly balanced by having no two of the targets farther than 15' apart. Lumping enemies together like that opens up the possibility of other powers / spells such as Fireball, Flamestrike. Being able to differentiate between combatants is probably one of the strongest aspects of the power, and, if you feel it needs to be toned down, changing the power to affecting a maximum of 3 targets instead of 5, or distributing the damage instead would probably not make the power underpowered. If you do either of these, keep in mind that the power Concussion Blast scales at 1d6 per 2pp and has no save, and can target multiple opponents with augmentation without dividing the damage. For further comparison of usage, if enemies are not bunched up, meaning you can get maybe 2-3 enemies at most with the power, it might actually be better to focus on one and use an Energy Ray - a level 1 general power - which has no save, but requires a touch attack. This means that enemies with Evasion / Improved Evasion / good saving throws are more likely going to take half damage from Energy Missile, halving its effectiveness, while on Energy Ray, with a ranged touch attack, they take full. The downside to the Ray is needing to make the touch attack, or wasting the power points. Some feel, and justifiably so, that 1/2 is better than nothing. But, in the case of Improved Evasion, the best you can hope for is half (unless using cold - as you can see, the logistics of taking all the powers and permutations is pretty intense). The save DC on Energy Missile has been widely contested, but it is viewed by many that most saving throws are too low at the high end. If you are uncomfortable with Energy Missile's save progression, modify it to 1:2 as the normal energy powers progress. An official errata changing the save DC to 1:2 is expected by many, viewed as not terribly unlikely by more, and only argued against by a smaller group. The Energy / Damage portion of this power is explained in Myth6. The targetting powers portion of this power was clarified by the author, Bruce Cordell, in an email response. He stated that the power cannot target attended objects. However, his choice of wording and memory of the game rules left many individuals feeling he was mistaken about game mechanics and, as such, is still up for debate. The spirit of the power as stated by the author, however, is that it can nottarget attended / held objects, and would be a legitimate ruling on those grounds. Myth 11: Schism is overpowered Answer: There are several aspects of Schism that balance its power: 1. Telepath-only: by restricting it to only Telepaths or requiring a 9th level or higher non-Telepath to use a feat, access to this power is limited or costly to a character 2. Manifester level - 6 for manifesting: Powers at -6 Manifester levels will typically not have a high enough saving throw to be useful if using offensive powers, will not do a substantial amount of damage, or are buff/utility-type powers 3. Spellcasting: To cast a spell with the schismed mind, you must have the Still Spell and Silent Spell feats, plus either Eschew Materials feat or a spell that does not require material components. Further, a Sorcerer cannot benefit from Schism at all, as he only gains a standard action, and a Stilled, Silent spell without material components takes a full round to cast. This makeup also requires the manifester, who must be an effective 7th level Psion, also have levels in Wizard and use two feats at the minimum. If the manifester isn't a Telepath, he must be an effective 9th level Psion / Wilder and also have spellcasting levels. 4. Swift actions: The Rules As Written (RAW) do not grant the schismed mind any swift actions. Further, they specifically state that the only action the schismed mind can take is a standard, purely mental action, ruling swift actions out entirely. 5. Regaining Psionic Focus: It is an official ruling until ruled otherwise that, because the Schismed mind cannot normally refocus (as it costs a full round action), they can therefore not refocus even with Psionic Meditation. 6. Limited Power Points: A Psionic character, as stressed above, has an extremely limited amount of power points to draw from. By manifesting this power and then further drawing from the pool to manifest extra powers per round, the Psionic character is burning out at roughly 1.5 the normal rate. In a multiple-encounter per day environment, this character will be nearly worthless in the last encounter if "abusing" this power. As far as my experience and interpretation of the rules can reach there are only 3 psionic disciplines that are any good: Telepathy, psychic warrior and psychometabolism in that order. Everything else sucks. Once again saying that a power is balanced because you have to take an optimal choice is flawed, even so with Astral Construct and Energy Missile since expanded knowledge is also optimal. If I have a psion and I want him to suck less as a nuker then I be a telepath and when I qualify I take Expanded Knowledge (energy missile) and then I have no regrets on being a telepath, end of subject. This is the same as my druid taking Natural Spell, if I want him to not suck I take the feat because it’s optimal. Not that I think Energy Missile and Schism are overpowered, you pay for both of those hard. Myth 20: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is overpowered Answer: Empathic Transfer, Hostile is Mind-Affecting. This is very, very, very important and usually overlooked. Many, many, many creatures in D&D are immune to mind-affecting effects. Undead, constructs, mindless, innate immunities, buffs, etc. Yes, this power is nice, but it is easily negated by having mindless / immune enemies. Situtationally being very good does not make a power too strong - it means it is situational. While this is definitely a nice power, and at times can be very devastating, it does have several limiting factors. Immunities != Sudden Balance, is the hulking hurler PrC less overpowered when you factor in incorporeal creatures being immune to nonmagical chunks of rock being thrown at them? No, because immunities affect the creatures ability to challenge the party, not the power of the respected class. Isn't this why everybody hates polymorph, because of the ability to easily play on a character's weaknesses? Myth 21: Elans are overpowered Answer: The Elan racial abilities, at first glance, are quite powerful. However, several things need to be taken into account before deeming them overpowered. First, usage of any of the saving throw / damage negating abilities uses the character's immediate action. Use of an immediate action means the character cannot use another immediate or swift action until after their next turn. So, a character playing an Elan could activate the damage reducing ability and negate 10 hp of damage, but if the next enemy casts a spell on him, he now cannot boost his saving throws - he's already used his one action for that round. Second, the cost of the damage reducing ability is subpar compared to the temporary HP buff of Vigor. A quick Vigor buff will not only save the Elan power points, but grant them better HP usable for more than just a one-shot. Third, unless the character is a psion or wilder, their number of power points is more than likely extremely limited, meaning the number of times per day they can use these abilities can usually be counted on one hand. If the character is a Psion or Wilder, they are then taking away power points used to manifest more efficient powers / offensive powers, taking away from their combat ability. The Elan racial abilities, while nice, are mostly for extreme emergencies than anything else. Use of them on a regular basis will end up with a character who, while hard to kill, won't be able to contribute as much to combat. If you feel that these abilities need to be brought in line, limit the number of power points that can be spent on any of these abilities as 1 / HD or 1 / 2 HD, or something that suits your taste. I agree with the exact opposite of this myth. Elans are to psionics what Dusklings are to Incarnum (and no Elans aren’t racist like Dusklings are!), having racial traits that require class-specific resources to be of any use is an underpowering design flaw. An Elan can function without psion levels just as a Duskling can function without meldshaper levels, but the Elan’s racial traits and the Duskling’s racist speed increase (oops, I mean racial … I think) require more Essentia or more Power Points to not totally suck. This is why I never play as an Elan or Duskling, because if I play them suddenly it becomes a bad choice NOT to be an elan manifester or duskling meldshaper. Myth 9: The Metamind is overpowered with Font of Power Answer: You're kidding, right? Once per day 10 rounds of unlimited power but still restricted to manifester level of power points per manifestation is overpowered? You also lose five manifester levels, which translates into over 150 power points and, if a psion, two bonus feats. You can also never access 9th level powers as a 10th level Metamind or use Expanded Knowledge to access 8th level powers. The Metamind is commonly viewed as one of the weaker Prestige Classes in the XPH. Am I the only person who thinks the Metamind does not totally suck? Having practiced manifester and wearing an orange ioun stone negates half the drawbacks of -5 manifester level and with all those power points who needs 9th level powers? A well-built Metamind can spend so much more resources on a single encounter just by using a low level nuke power then any sorcerer/warmage, if anything he's one of the stronger XPH classes because unlike arcane magic a psion needs not high level powers to be effective. Myth 26: The Thrallherd is overpowered. At the highest level they get psionic domination that costs 1 power point to manifest, gets +3 to the save DC from the free augments to effect more creatures and their signature ability (Thrallherd) thats significantly better than leadership. Any kalshatar telepath can enter this PrC easily by 5th level, he can have both his Thrall be psychic warrior/War Minds with Metaconcert giving him even more resources to spend. Let's see if you can make this look balanced because I've played one and its questionable to me.
Bacris 06-20-06, 01:00 PM	So psionics suddenly become balanced when the DM says and does so? Reminds me of the Oberoni Fallacy, as in becomes balanced when the DM makes it implode. All classes are balanced on this premise. Not using this premise leads to balance problems. Casters can use all their good spells. You can use all your x/day abilities with no side effects. It is easier to see the balance issue with psionics, but it is not a psionics-only problem. Anytime your players know there is no concern of multiple encounters per day, you have a balance problem - psionics or no. All of those above psionic feats except maybe the psicrystal stuff are optimal choices. Hustle is an optimal spell for psychic warriors as well as expansion for bigger steps. Would you argue the power of the druid because he needs to have Natural Spell, sacred vow and Vow of Poverty? No, they are optimal choices for druids and using their opportunity cost to argue against GBI doesn’t work. They are not necessarily optimal choices. I have made optimized builds that had nothing to do with psionic focus. So any choice therefore has an opportunity cost. You can't use focus-expending effects if you want to use focus-maintaining effects, plain and simple. Opportunity cost. And actions & power points are BIG balance factors, especially for the psychic warrior. Their power point pool is very low, so every 3 pp they have to spend hurts them much more than a psion. Expanded Knowledge isn't always optimal - and it also delays when the power becomes available. Personally, my experience with constructs is they're great as meat shields - not great for damage. So they can soak up hits and not do much else. Your mileage may vary, but that's been my experience. My experience with Energy Missile is that unless the enemies are stupid enough to bunch up, Energy Ray was typically better. Your thoughts on "always optimal" are very much biased and not 100% accurate. Expanded Knowledge CAN be optimal, but not always. As for Empathic Transfer, Hostile, your hyperbole doesn't negate the fact that ET:H is very situational. A) You have to be hurt B) Your enemy can't be immune to mind affects - of which a large number of enemies are C) Your enemy has to fail a save to be most optimal Good? Yes. Overpowered? No. And you lost me on the metamind. The math has been done - you come dead even to a psion 20 in power points if you use Font of Power to its fullest. And orange ioun stones in full transparency don't work like that - that's a house rule. Transparency rules don't account for CL = ML. And 9th level powers are far more important - especially since you don't even get 8th level powers until level 20. No bend reality or reality revision - those powers are HUGE for psion versatility, not even accounting discipline powers (chirurgery... g. metamorphosis... etc)
Scion of Coldshard 06-20-06, 01:30 PM	I have a few minutes break at work and thought I'd pop onto the psionics boards. So I'll make a few remarks as this thread is always fun ;) To Sir Elton (John?) and Bacris: Not me, but hopefully you wont mind me responding a little anyway. So psionics suddenly become balanced when the DM says and does so? Reminds me of the Oberoni Fallacy, as in becomes balanced when the DM makes it implode. The Oberoni Fallacy deals with things being unbalanced but the dm can change something to make it balanced. In this case however we have something being balanced and a dm changing something which 'creates' the imbalance. A little bit of a difference there. Plus, a lot of it comes down to perceptions. Your initial point was that caster types are stronger than (have an advantage over) noncaster types. I think this all comes down to the type of game and what sorts of challenges the dm sets up. In general, having lots of things happen in a day favors those whose resources are effectively infinite while having few favors those who have limited resources. If a dm chooses to ignore the middle ground, for whatever reason, then it will favor certain types of builds while, in my experience, sticking to the middle ground makes casters and noncasters alike fairly balanced with one another over most circumstances. All of those above psionic feats except maybe the psicrystal stuff are optimal choices. Hustle is an optimal spell for psychic warriors as well as expansion for bigger steps. I am finding your use of the word 'optimal' difficult to understand throughout your post. I think that you mean 'best choice out of all choices' or something similar to that but as I see taking more than one or two focus expenditure feats on the same character to be a pretty hefty mistake in general (deep impact + greater psionic weapon is a nice single attack option if you spend the other feats but then the rest of your combat kindof sucks compared with if you had simply taken feats that were always on or didnt take focus to use). Hustle is great for a psychic warrior, although he'll be burning through pp so fast it is unlikely he'll be doing much after the first battle or so. The psychic warriors pp reserve is just so small that he has to ration them extremely well. Burning a hustle every round is definately 'not' rationing well! ;) Would you argue the power of the druid because he needs to have Natural Spell, sacred vow and Vow of Poverty? No, they are optimal choices for druids and using their opportunity cost to argue against GBI doesn’t work. Personally, I condider natural spell to be a psuedo class feature of druids but they already had so much that it had to come with a price tag. In this case they chose to make that price tag one of their normal feats. I dont see how the druid needs any of the three though, especially not the last two. As far as my experience and interpretation of the rules can reach there are only 3 psionic disciplines that are any good: Telepathy, psychic warrior and psychometabolism in that order. Everything else sucks. Wow.. pretty harsh. Some are definately better than others overall, but each has their own little benefits. Once again saying that a power is balanced because you have to take an optimal choice is flawed In the case of discipline powers the need to spend a feat to get it helps to make the choice much more balanced. A feat is a pretty big thing after all. The ability to make the choice and spend the resources to get the type of character that you want is a strength of the psionic system in my opinion. Typically the other caster types get restrictions that are solid walls of denial, at which point you need to make a prc to get around it or something similar ;/ Immunities != Sudden Balance nope, they make for 'sudden useless'. Still, hostile empathic transfer has a lot of limitations and many creatures simply being immune is just one on the list. Note that for the hulking hurler and its difficulty with incorporeal just isnt on the same scale of difficulty. Creatures with the incorporeal subtype just are not that common whereas the creatures immune to mind effecting are much, much larger in number. closs range, difficult to gain (takes being a certain discipline, certain class, or spending a feat), and needing to be hurt already by a decent amount to make it worthwhile are all limiting features. I agree with the exact opposite of this myth. Elans are definately pretty weak ;/ Extra costs all over the place including a stat penalty with no bonus! They dont have a maximum age, woo. That comes up in a lot of games I am sure. Am I the only person who thinks the Metamind does not totally suck? Probably :) Myth 26: The Thrallherd is overpowered. At the highest level they get psionic domination that costs 1 power point to manifest, gets +3 to the save DC from the free augments to effect more creatures and their signature ability (Thrallherd) thats significantly better than leadership. Any kalshatar telepath can enter this PrC easily by 5th level, he can have both his Thrall be psychic warrior/War Minds with Metaconcert giving him even more resources to spend. Let's see if you can make this look balanced because I've played one and its questionable to me. I have little experience with the thrallherd (not really my kind of character) but I just wanted to say that if you are actually getting a positive use out of metaconcert then that is pretty incredible right there and it should be rewarded!
Scion of Coldshard 06-20-06, 01:43 PM	And orange ioun stones in full transparency don't work like that - that's a house rule. While I didnt call it out on the other thread that dealt with feats and transparency I will say something about it with magic items here ;) Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. I take this to mean that orange ioun stones would indeed work with psionics.
Bacris 06-20-06, 01:51 PM	I take this to mean that orange ioun stones would indeed work with psionics. You're taking that out of context :) The very next line from where you quoted states "When the rule about psionics–magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications." The rules after it do not give any reference to CL affecting ML or vice versa. Now, I'm not saying it wouldn't be a BAD rule, but what I'm saying is with the way the rules for transparency are written, CL != ML.
Scion of Coldshard 06-20-06, 01:57 PM	You're taking that out of context Taking that section and other sections of rules into account I do not think that is true ;) There are several places in the rules which assume transparency to go beyond the bounds described in the part after the line that you are reading. To me that further demonstrates that the first line is meant to be read as is. Now that is not to say that it is properly written, there is too much evidence to the contrary. I am merely pointing out that I feel the line I quoted is far reaching. So far reaching that it has a huge amount of power for such a few number of words.
Rhonin the Big 06-20-06, 05:47 PM	The following is from the perspective of your average rational Role-playing powergamer: Before I continue if anybody thinks I am arguing against the balance of psionics I am not, I am simply arguing against the argument FOR the balance of psionics; particularly with psychic warrior feats not being overpowered because you take them and then take others to make them more effective. A psychic warrior cannot necessarily fight like a fighter, he needs to expend his PF and manifest buff powers to make him surpass the fighter. A Psychic warrior20 has 8 bonus feats to choose, choosing 6 of them that clearly are a great choice is like saying C.O.Dzilla isn't overpowered because he has to spend 3 of his feats for divine metamagic (persistent spell). As a psychic warrior I wanna get the most out of my psionic focus, so choosing 3 feats to effectively get 2 foci and 3 others that vastly improve my options in a fight beyond my powers are as optimal as a cleric taking divine feats so his turn attempts dont lie around waiting for undead to show up before they ever get used. And believe me, deep impact is worth it for a psychic warrior20 with rogue base attack. Same thing with discipline specific powers being balanced because if you are manifesting it you are either A) a member of a suboptimal discipline which is the case 1/2 of the time) or B) spent 1 of your 12 total feats for it. If I wanna manifest Astral Construct to increase strategic options or energy missile so I can blow stuff up, why would I be a shaper or a kineticist? Does that not hurt the psion when all it takes is 1 feat and discipline-specific powers are no longer discipline-specific? As for Metamind not sucking, it can do more than just be a power point generator for 1 minute a day ya know. Consider a kalshatar egoist/metamind, I can manifest 3 energy missiles for free (through EK of course!) effectively saving the cost of 1 5th level power AND I get one of those for free too. If you add it up with all the free manifesting and cognizance psicrystals a metamind saves 44 extra power points, how does that suck? Even if Orange Ioun stones wont give me +1ML then practised manifester lessens the opportunity cost of being a metamind by alot. How does a ML of 19, 44 extra power points and becoming an energy faucet for 1 minute a day suck? What about gaining infinite actions or one of the other ways to abuse Font of Power dry? If there's no way the Metamind can be a well-optimized decision then I'll shut up about him but I want that proven to me. I still think the Thrallherd is overpowered, not overpowered as in Hulking Hurler but more overpowered as in Initiate of Pistis Sophitia (Book of exalted deeds, AKA Book of exalted cheese). Can somebody prove me wrong?
Nephlite 06-20-06, 05:59 PM	Same thing with discipline specific powers being balanced because if you are manifesting it you are either A) a member of a suboptimal discipline which is the case 1/2 of the time) or B) spent 1 of your 12 total feats for it. If I wanna manifest Astral Construct to increase strategic options or energy missile so I can blow stuff up, why would I be a shaper or a kineticist? Does that not hurt the psion when all it takes is 1 feat and discipline-specific powers are no longer discipline-specific? AC is good. But there are alot of better Shaper powers. With Complete Psionics out the are better ways to summon multple monsters (Larval Flayers , etc). As for Metamind not sucking, it can do more than just be a power point generator for 1 minute a day ya know. Consider a kalshatar egoist/metamind, I can manifest 3 energy missiles for free (through EK of course!) effectively saving the cost of 1 5th level power AND I get one of those for free too. The free base cost not augmented cost free powers? Yeah, like youwould really manifest damage dealing powers at their base only! A few powers like Cloud mind (the weaker man's invisibility spell) I can see (since no augment), but those base cost only worth-it powers are few and far between. If you add it up with all the free manifesting and cognizance psicrystals a metamind saves 44 extra power points, how does that suck? Even if Orange Ioun stones wont give me +1ML then practised manifester lessens the opportunity cost of being a metamind by alot. How does a ML of 19, 44 extra power points and becoming an energy faucet for 1 minute a day suck? What about gaining infinite actions or one of the other ways to abuse Font of Power dry? If there's no way the Metamind can be a well-optimized decision then I'll shut up about him but I want that proven to me. You forgot that the 44 bonus PP - the 150 lost = negative 106 pp. You still lost alot. 1 minute a day, so 1 battle a day the Metamindis decent? And you waited 10 levels of the Prc for something useful? Tell me these abusive methods that are legit by RAW.
Rhonin the Big 06-23-06, 11:05 AM	The Oberoni Fallacy deals with things being unbalanced but the dm can change something to make it balanced. In this case however we have something being balanced and a dm changing something which 'creates' the imbalance. A little bit of a difference there. Plus, a lot of it comes down to perceptions. Your initial point was that caster types are stronger than (have an advantage over) noncaster types. I think this all comes down to the type of game and what sorts of challenges the dm sets up. In general, having lots of things happen in a day favors those whose resources are effectively infinite while having few favors those who have limited resources. If a dm chooses to ignore the middle ground, for whatever reason, then it will favor certain types of builds while, in my experience, sticking to the middle ground makes casters and noncasters alike fairly balanced with one another over most circumstances. I dont care what kinda challenges your DM puts you up against other than puzzle traps with persistent antimagic field and unpickable locks made of unbashable metal, the game as a whole favors casters/manifesters. So your DM has your standard 3-4 encounters a day and we are in the classic dungeon crawl search for artifact quest, in my experience it looks like this: DM: So you all used all your power points and highest level spells on the first encounter of the day ... a great wyrm dragon approaches. Cleric: I cast plane shift and take all of us to the native plane of Heironeous, im pretty sure he will treat us with hospitality. We can sleep here for awhile and regain our strength and most powerful spells ... hey, where did our DM walk away to? Fighter: He's going to play a more forgiving RPG like World of Warcraft. Im not saying we should nerf magic/psionics as a whole, nor am I saying spellcasters/manifesters put our skilled warriors and fearsome barbarians out of jobs. I am simply saying that anytime we talk about GBI with spellcasting/psionics this is the type of encounter we need to have in the back of our mind. I am finding your use of the word 'optimal' difficult to understand throughout your post. I think that you mean 'best choice out of all choices' or something similar to that but as I see taking more than one or two focus expenditure feats on the same character to be a pretty hefty mistake in general (deep impact + greater psionic weapon is a nice single attack option if you spend the other feats but then the rest of your combat kindof sucks compared with if you had simply taken feats that were always on or didnt take focus to use). Hustle is great for a psychic warrior, although he'll be burning through pp so fast it is unlikely he'll be doing much after the first battle or so. The psychic warriors pp reserve is just so small that he has to ration them extremely well. Burning a hustle every round is definately 'not' rationing well! ;) Psychic warriors have power points, concentration as a class skill and the ability to take psionic feats as bonus feats, why wouldn't I take Psionic Meditation, psicrystal affinity and psicrystal containment? If I have to face a highly-armored and highly-defensive fighter, deep impact + hustle will give me a better chance of hitting him. If I need to slay a mage, temporal acceleration + massive buffing +greater psionic weapon when im done will neutralize the threat faster. I say this is a strength of the psychic warrior, such an optimal choice makes him so versitile in combat that I need to play one in my next campaign. I think its a strength of the psychic warrior that with his feats alone he doesnt have to ignore any of his class features like a fighter has to (having weapon spec ignores high trip checks or high Base attack). Im not saying psychic warriors are overpowered, they are just better than the fighter which isn't a bad thing. Personally, I condider natural spell to be a psuedo class feature of druids but they already had so much that it had to come with a price tag. In this case they chose to make that price tag one of their normal feats. I dont see how the druid needs any of the three though, especially not the last two. I used clerics, druids and the Hulking Hurler as examples in my posts because they are widely considered to be overpowered. Am I mistaken? In the case of discipline powers the need to spend a feat to get it helps to make the choice much more balanced. A feat is a pretty big thing after all. The ability to make the choice and spend the resources to get the type of character that you want is a strength of the psionic system in my opinion. Typically the other caster types get restrictions that are solid walls of denial, at which point you need to make a prc to get around it or something similar ;/ I agree, so many casters have lots of restrictions to the way they wanna cast. If my wizard restricted evocation and we need a me to nuke, on next level up I can't take a feat to get 1 useful evocation; a psion can. As a matter of fact with Expanded Knowledge so readily available there's no reason to take some of the weaker disciplines, I'll pick lots of telepathy or psychometabolism powers and if I find myself getting requests for physical assistence next level up I'll Expand Knowledge (astral construct) that way I keep the speciality I want and my party gets what they needed. nope, they make for 'sudden useless'. Still, hostile empathic transfer has a lot of limitations and many creatures simply being immune is just one on the list. Note that for the hulking hurler and its difficulty with incorporeal just isnt on the same scale of difficulty. Creatures with the incorporeal subtype just are not that common whereas the creatures immune to mind effecting are much, much larger in number. closs range, difficult to gain (takes being a certain discipline, certain class, or spending a feat), and needing to be hurt already by a decent amount to make it worthwhile are all limiting features. Thanx to Libris Mortis any DM can throw us up against an Umbral Creature or an evolved gravetouched ghoul elf, both are immune to mind effects and 1 is incorporeal. Using immunities as a balance factor for Hostile Empathic Transfer is like saying the Orb of Fire is balanced because creatures are immune to fire, its a strength of the creature not a weakness of the spell/power. Personally, I like hostile empathic transfer, but its not as broken as the Broken Elemental Orb spells in complete arcane.
Bacris 06-23-06, 11:15 AM	Your arguments are all over the place, first claiming one thing, then backtracking, so I'm having a hard time exactly understanding what point you're trying to make. Any choice that carries a cost - be it a feat selection, cost of power points, etc - has a balance tag attached to it. You say "Why wouldn't I choose Deep Impact?" - well, what if your build focus is battlefield control, instead of damage? Your feats may be better spent on options such as Improved Grapple or Improved Trip. Just because it's your opinion of what is optimized for one specific build doesn't mean it's optimized for all possible builds. Battlefield control builds are more worthwhile, in my opinion, than straight damage warrior builds. Does that mean those builds are automatically more optimal? No. Does it mean they're less optimal? No. It means the situation dictates optimized. Just because a feat is good doesn't mean you should always take it. Improved Initiative is a good feat - does every build take it? No. Psicrystal Affinity is a great feat, in my opinion, yet I have made psywars and psions who do not choose that feat. Why? Because it didn't fit the build. Psionic Meditation is a great feat - but not for a focus-maintaining build. Your situation dictates if something is optimal. You need to accept that it's not always an optimal choice.
Rhonin the Big 06-23-06, 03:02 PM	Your arguments are all over the place, first claiming one thing, then backtracking, so I'm having a hard time exactly understanding what point you're trying to make. Any choice that carries a cost - be it a feat selection, cost of power points, etc - has a balance tag attached to it. You say "Why wouldn't I choose Deep Impact?" - well, what if your build focus is battlefield control, instead of damage? Your feats may be better spent on options such as Improved Grapple or Improved Trip. Just because it's your opinion of what is optimized for one specific build doesn't mean it's optimized for all possible builds. Battlefield control builds are more worthwhile, in my opinion, than straight damage warrior builds. Does that mean those builds are automatically more optimal? No. Does it mean they're less optimal? No. It means the situation dictates optimized. Just because a feat is good doesn't mean you should always take it. Improved Initiative is a good feat - does every build take it? No. Psicrystal Affinity is a great feat, in my opinion, yet I have made psywars and psions who do not choose that feat. Why? Because it didn't fit the build. Psionic Meditation is a great feat - but not for a focus-maintaining build. Your situation dictates if something is optimal. You need to accept that it's not always an optimal choice. Psychic warriors get 15 feats, like the fighter thats more then enough to build around whatever combat style you like (though I suggest against battlefield control for psywar cuz of medium base attack), 6 feats so your psionic focus isnt ignored and you have more of an opportunity to hit or deal damage is a pretty good choice. If the feat is that good that you can build around whatever style you want and still take it, is that a balance factor? Natural Spell and Fast wild shape are so important for a druid that 2 feats out of her 7 isnt that much of an opportunity cost, does that mean both of these feats which I consider overpowered less so because she has to take them? No. Not that the above 6 feats are too powerful, but if the psywar takes those he has 9 other feats to build his combat style around which is more than enough. My argument is: The fact that a class that gets multiple bonus feats has to take a feat to get its effects is not a valid argument for GBI. If that were true no feats would ever be too powerful: Divine Metamagic, Fast Wildshape, Nymph's Kiss, Vow of Poverty, and all those troublesome feats I dont have access to are balanced because "Hey, he has to take them." My argument is: The fact that partys should have 3-4 encounters a day at a respective CR is not a valid argument for GBI once you get higher in levels. Those 3-4 CR20 encounters a day are nothing cuz its just nova, plane shift to a good-aligned plane, sleep in front of the pearly gates and wake up to do it all again in the morning. Does this effect my feeling of psionics? Of course not, its just as balanced as regular spellcasting, its just different.
DisposableHero_ 06-23-06, 03:06 PM	As for Metamind not sucking, it can do more than just be a power point generator for 1 minute a day ya know. Consider a kalshatar egoist/metamind, I can manifest 3 energy missiles for free (through EK of course!) effectively saving the cost of 1 5th level power AND I get one of those for free too. If you add it up with all the free manifesting and cognizance psicrystals a metamind saves 44 extra power points, how does that suck?Kalashtar Psion 5/Metamind 9, int 24 (16 base +3 level +1 tome +4 enhancement), Practiced Manifester, Psicrystal Affinity, Psionic Talent x7 (2 flaws), Orange Ioun Stone (assuming transparancy in that regard): Manifester Level 14, Int 24 -> 49 points Base Power Points as Psion 9 -> 72 points Free Manifesting 1st 3/day -> 3 points Free Manifesting 2nd 3/day -> 9 points Free Manifesting 3rd 1/day -> 5 points Free Manifesting 4th 1/day -> 7 points Free Manifesting 5th 1/day -> 9 points Psicrystal Cognizance (11) -> 11 points Kalashtar Naturally Psionic -> 14 points Psionic Talent x 7 -> 31 points Total -> 210 points 24 int Human Psion 14 Total -> 219 points http://www.geocities.com/disposableherodm/fail.jpg
Scion of Coldshard 06-23-06, 03:14 PM	So your DM has your standard 3-4 encounters a day You dont need the amount every day, you merely need the 'threat' of the amount to be present at the times that it matters. That is a big step and one that some dm's have a problem with but it makes the whole system run so much better when it is being used properly. Psychic warriors have power points, concentration as a class skill and the ability to take psionic feats as bonus feats, why wouldn't I take Psionic Meditation, psicrystal affinity and psicrystal containment? They do have pp, but not very many. They do have concentration as a class skill, but they only have 2 skill points a level and int is pretty low on their 'must have' stat list. As for the feats, perhaps they want to make some other build? Or maybe they like making iterative attacks? Hustle takes 3 pp each time you want to manifest it and costs your swift action for the round. After that you get to spend your extra action trying to regain focus (possibly provocking an aoo if you arent paying attention). Lets say that he is a level 10 psychic warrior with a wis of 16, this gives him 42 pp for the day. If he uses no other powers at all this gives him 14 uses of hustle. If he has spent 13 of his skill points on concentration and used his psicrystal to give him a bonus to concentration and has a con of 16 then he just barely squeeks out making the check 100% of the time (good for him!). Basically at this point he can make a full attack each round and have a single focus to expend which he could use to make an attack deal an extra 2d6 damage if it successfully hits. Vs the normal old fighter who has 3 more points of BAB, 2 more bonus feats (and he didnt have to spend those feats in the way that the psychic warrior did, he could easily be getting 2 extra damage 'every' succesful hit all day long), more combat oriented stats (didnt have to worry about wisdom), and 13 skill points to spend on some other skill(s). Now, I personally feel that the base fighter needs some work, but your example here has the base fighter winning overall by a very large margin from what I can tell. Maybe, just maybe, the psychic warrior would have been better off making different choices? While this was just a very basic comparison, and the psychic warrior is ahead in some ways such as will save, it certainly doesnt have the psychic warrior being a combat machine. Especially as he just wont have 2 foci always at the ready and sometimes his attacks will miss wasting all foci he just tried to use. Having multiple feats which require focus expenditure to use for a combat specialist has always seemed like a poor way to go to me though. Occassionally useful perhaps, but what about all of those other times where an 'always on' or 'always ready to go' ability would have been just that much better. I used clerics, druids and the Hulking Hurler as examples in my posts because they are widely considered to be overpowered. Am I mistaken? what does this comment have to do with mine? You are using feats and wordings that seem completely random. Where does vop or whatever even come up here? How can a feat be 'optimal' if there are better choices? (no matter if the class in the comparison is overpowered or not the choices that they make can be good or bad) If my wizard restricted evocation and we need a me to nuke, on next level up I can't take a feat to get 1 useful evocation; a psion can. Actually, a psion cant get a useful evocation ;) Still, if you look around the schools of magic there is a pretty hefty overlap. If you want blasting but have given up evocation look at illusion and conjuration (actually conjuration school is now way, way better at blasting than evocation, go figure). A wizard could also pick up the feat from complete divine (I think) that allows them to use the spells from a cleric domain. It has some restrictions sure, so does expand knowledge, but it has some pretty nice benefits as well. Thanx to Libris Mortis any DM can throw us up against an Umbral Creature or an evolved gravetouched ghoul elf, both are immune to mind effects and 1 is incorporeal. Or he could just never send anything but creatures that he declared to be incorporeal because the god in his head said so. This doesnt have anything to do with what I said as far as I can tell. If your dm only throws creatures who die instantly to fire at your party that does not mean that in general for d&d creatures burning hands is a horribly broken and abusive spell. In certain 'campaigns' it might be over or underpowered depending, but when you look at the system as a whole it is perfectly fine. When talking about something that has a certain descriptor such as [mind-affecting] and we know that after a certain point it is nearly trivial to gain immunity to said descriptor then I think it is very reasonable to say, 'in an average game effect X loses most/all of its power/usefulness after level Y because of Z and should be treated that way when discussing anything beyond that point'. In this case we have a host of creatures and templates and spells and powers and who knows what else that can eventually make one immune to the power. So, at some point it would be good to mention such things. However, it was mentioned a few times that there are 'other' reasons which make it less powerful as well, this was just a case of picking out the easy one and describing it while just mentioning that there are others. Perhaps it would have been best to mention more of them in greater detail but that didnt seem to be the complaint.
Scion of Coldshard 06-23-06, 03:24 PM	Natural Spell and Fast wild shape are so important for a druid that 2 feats out of her 7 isnt that much of an opportunity cost 2 out of 7 feats isnt much of a cost? I think I'll just stick with, 'I disagree'. Whether or not the feats in question are too powerful or too weak or just right is immaterial to my disagreement with your statement ;) Divine Metamagic, Fast Wildshape, Nymph's Kiss, Vow of Poverty, and all those troublesome feats I dont have access to are balanced because "Hey, he has to take them." You keep mentioning vow of poverty as a powerful/troublesome feat and I feel that I have to ask why you think that is so? I have played two seperate characters and it made both of them weaker and less interesting in just about every way as compared to simply being able to choose my own gear with appropriate money for the level. One of them was even a druid and how I wished I could just go the 'very good' route instead of having those feats ;/ My argument is: The fact that partys should have 3-4 encounters a day at a respective CR is not a valid argument for GBI once you get higher in levels. Those 3-4 CR20 encounters a day are nothing cuz its just nova, plane shift to a good-aligned plane, sleep in front of the pearly gates and wake up to do it all again in the morning. wow.. I think I would hate playing in your games.. and I know you would hate playing in mine as this sort of tactic would get either the party killed or a large portion of the populous/plane that you were trying to do good things for. Does this effect my feeling of psionics? Of course not, its just as balanced as regular spellcasting, its just different. Psionics rock! ;) Although saying it is as balanced as normal casting when I think of all of those broken spells makes me a bit uneasy.
Bacris 06-23-06, 03:29 PM	Psychic warriors get 15 feats, like the fighter thats more then enough to build around whatever combat style you like (though I suggest against battlefield control for psywar cuz of medium base attack), 6 feats so your psionic focus isnt ignored and you have more of an opportunity to hit or deal damage is a pretty good choice. If the feat is that good that you can build around whatever style you want and still take it, is that a balance factor? Natural Spell and Fast wild shape are so important for a druid that 2 feats out of her 7 isnt that much of an opportunity cost, does that mean both of these feats which I consider overpowered less so because she has to take them? No. Not that the above 6 feats are too powerful, but if the psywar takes those he has 9 other feats to build his combat style around which is more than enough. And again, I point out that they are not ALWAYS the optimized choice for every single psychic warrior. That is the point you seem to be trying to make. "Any psychic warrior MUST take psionic meditation" - which is flat out incorrect. Every psywar you make may have it, but not everyone I've made - some of which are quite well optimized, thank you. BAB isn't everything - expansion + combat reflexes + good dex + improved trip = good battlefield control. My argument is: The fact that a class that gets multiple bonus feats has to take a feat to get its effects is not a valid argument for GBI. If that were true no feats would ever be too powerful: Divine Metamagic, Fast Wildshape, Nymph's Kiss, Vow of Poverty, and all those troublesome feats I dont have access to are balanced because "Hey, he has to take them." The problem is you're looking at a string of feats and saying each feat in and of itself is a problem. If I spend 1/3 of my feats on a single effect, I expect it to be a good effect. I don't care if I've got 9 or 12 or 15 feats - if I'm spending 1/3 of my options on something, I intend to make that a viable option. You're trying to argue synergy makes a single feat too good. My argument is: The fact that partys should have 3-4 encounters a day at a respective CR is not a valid argument for GBI once you get higher in levels. Those 3-4 CR20 encounters a day are nothing cuz its just nova, plane shift to a good-aligned plane, sleep in front of the pearly gates and wake up to do it all again in the morning. Any party of mine that tried that would quickly find that they couldn't always plane shift, or teleport, or rope trick, or they would be followed by the enemies to that plane while they were asleep, or any of a dozen different methods to counter this cheese tactic. Do people really play this way and get away with it? This type of metagaming is horrendous and I would so not stand for it. Any DM who allows PCs to abuse this type of behavior is a poor DM, plain and simple.
wonlee76 06-23-06, 03:55 PM	Figure I'll put my thoughts about the expanded psionics handbook here since I recently introduced it in my game and over the course of a month (pre level 8 PCs) to get a "feel' for it compared to other things in the game. I haven't read the whole thread so I apologize if this is just re-hashing other people's thoughts or ideas. But I figure the thoughts/experiences of a DM new to using psionics might be helpful to others who are considering introducing psionics in their campaigns. No, I do not believe it is overpowered but it caused me as a DM to re-think how to set up encounters in order to keep the power level in check but that's the same considerations I put in for arcane casters and divine casters as they get to higher and higher levels. Advantages #1: Certain psionic powers are much better then the arcane equivalent. I admit my initial knee jerk reaction was to scream "overpowered" but after seeing it in action, its not as bad as initially thought. The Examples that come to mind: Expansion: Can be augmented to increase 2 size categories and/or can be augmented to change the manifesting time to a swift action for the power point cost of a level 3 power. An Arcane caster type would need to invest a level 5 spell slot to do this with Enlarge person. Energy Missile:The advantage of choosing energy types of varying modification of the mechanics on this power makes it a superb power. Fighting something with evasion or a high reflex save, make it a cold attack for a fort save. Want to increase the DC to make sure the high reflex save enemy fails its save, change it to whatever the energy type is that increases the DC. etc. etc. For a 2nd level power the closest analagous spell is Scorching Ray which due to short range stinks in comparison. Inertial Barrier: A scaling Mage Armor is just too nice. There are probably more but I haven't come to those powers yet. #2: No ASF for armor: Maybe its my players but they just really take advantage of this. Psions with Mithral Chain Shirts and Mithral Shields/Bucklers become common place. Sure, no proficiency is a problem but with mithral, armor check penalties become non-existent. #3: Built in metamagic in some powers. There seems to be a lot of powers with basically built in metamagic in them. Quicken a power built into the power in question for an increase in the PP cost and from the few I've seen, the cost to quicken is less then the cost a wizard would pay to quicken a spell. You either got extending durations, quickening powers, or even increasing the save DC. Just lots of nice quirky metamagic like abilities already built into the powers. #4: Flexibility: Unlike Wizards, Sorcerors and Clerics, the Psionic PC isn't constrained to using 1 Energy Missile/day or similar. Basically they can use any of their powers so long as they got the power points. This results in them being able to use blast powers lots of times in a day if its a heavy encounter day or to use some more interesting powers to do intrigue adventures all day long. Disadvantages #1: Power Points: Depending on the DM, this is either a advantage or disadvantage. So far, in my games, its a disadvantage. Its actually pretty common place right now that I'm draining the Psion of most of his power points by the end of the day. I can see this not being a disadvantage if you have a DM that's into 1 big encounter/day though but spellcaster's would receive the same advantage being able to blast the 1 encounter with their best spells. #2: Compared to PHB spellcasters, less powers known by Psions. However, with the flexibility some powers provide and the scaling making certain powers very useful going into high levels, the disadvantage is not as bad as it seems. #3: Players really hating psionic enemies: By allowing Players to use psionics, I am allowed to use psionics and unlike the PCs in question who may be concerned about how many power points they got in reserve, my psionic enemies in all liklihood have their full reserve of PP on them and since for the baddies its their 1 encounter that they will die in, they have every incentive in the world to burn up their power points in augmenting powers and such. So as a DM, I don't care about the NPC baddies run out of power points in an adventure. As a DM, it is your right and privilege to challenge the PCs and use the same tricks they use against your baddies. ;) #4: New "power" combos that cannot be mimiced by what's in the PHB: Certain psionic feats just were built to really screw the PC's over. A Psi-Warrior/Barbarian with Deep Impact, power attack with a quickened expansion comes to mind (and yes, with leap attack I 1 hitted the group's tank in plate mail armor). There was a certain "cheapness" feeling to using that tactic against the group but considering the group's psi-warrior was using the same tactic when appropriate no one really had anything to complain about. Conclusion Personally, I don't think Psionics is overpowered. However, I do believe introducing psionics into a campaign without psionics would be overpowered (ie. PCs are the only ones who can use psionics) and with the introduction of any type of supplementary material, the materials contained in the Expanded psionics handbook changes the power structure of the game due to the the combinations of feats, powers, etc. that can be used together. The Expanded Psionics Handbook is no worst then allowing Frenzied Berserkers, Vow of Poverty, Divine Metamagic, Some other prestige class, etc. that a DM or PC might use from some kind of supplement.
Scion of Coldshard 06-23-06, 05:22 PM	Advantages #1: Certain psionic powers are much better then the arcane equivalent. With a disadvantage that certain arcane spells are much better than their psionic equivalent of course ;) Expansion: Can be augmented to increase 2 size categories and/or can be augmented to change the manifesting time to a swift action for the power point cost of a level 3 power. An Arcane caster type would need to invest a level 5 spell slot to do this with Enlarge person. For the cost of making it 3 levels higher (6 extra pp). Oh, and personal only vs close range. Inertial Barrier: A scaling Mage Armor is just too nice. Inertial armor ;) (not that it matters much to this advantage but they have printed higher level versions of mage armor). Personal vs touch. Nope, I am not doing anything useful, just random comments. Have fun all ;) (oh, and be careful about disadvantage #3, npcs have lives as well and normally do not see themselves as speed bumps. as such they use resources outside of combat just like everyone else and, assuming that they survive this encounter, might have to worry about the rest of the day. any limited resource class has this issue so it is not a psionic issue alone but some dms really like to push this button for psionics and caster types, I've never really been sure why..)
Milo HoBo 06-24-06, 04:35 AM	...#3: Players really hating psionic enemies: By allowing Players to use psionics, I am allowed to use psionics and unlike the PCs in question who may be concerned about how many power points they got in reserve, my psionic enemies in all liklihood have their full reserve of PP on them and since for the baddies its their 1 encounter that they will die in, they have every incentive in the world to burn up their power points in augmenting powers and such. So as a DM, I don't care about the NPC baddies run out of power points in an adventure. As a DM, it is your right and privilege to challenge the PCs and use the same tricks they use against your baddies. ;) ... Ahhh, don't metagame against the players, that will only encourage them to do it back! Really, even the Complete Psionic warned against this (one of those gems in the rough). NPC's would rather run away before their power points run out, and would want to have a few extra just in case. In fact, why haven't they already spent some of their reserve at that point in the day?
wonlee76 06-25-06, 01:58 PM	Ahhh, don't metagame against the players, that will only encourage them to do it back! Really, even the Complete Psionic warned against this (one of those gems in the rough). NPC's would rather run away before their power points run out, and would want to have a few extra just in case. In fact, why haven't they already spent some of their reserve at that point in the day? The same reason why baddie spellcasters usually have a full or near full allotment of spells memorized when the PCs confront them. It makes sense in certain situations. (PCs invading bad guys home and the like). Besides, I don't think its too much metagaming for a psion/spellcaster to use their best spells/powers to try to take out the enemy and only if it looks like they will lose, they will try to flee. I didn't mean to imply that all psionic enemies always have 100% of their PP when they are met but even if the baddies have 50% and good for 1 encounter (whether the encounter ends with death or fleeing) they prove to be a bigger challenge to the players. Fights just don't last long enough for a psionic baddie to even come close to using up all their pp. In my limited experience, my average psion usually gets off 2 or 3 powers in 1 encounter before its dead or is forced to flee (if that's an option) + whatever buff powers they might have used prior to the encounter. At the present time, I'm finding it very rare they are even close to running out of power points.
wonlee76 06-25-06, 02:11 PM	Just some comments just because I'm bored today. With a disadvantage that certain arcane spells are much better than their psionic equivalent of course ;) Agreed, which is why I pointed out that this does not necessarily make psionics overpowered. For the cost of making it 3 levels higher (6 extra pp). Oh, and personal only vs close range. But don't you find it strange that its cheaper to quicken a psionic power then it is to quicken an arcane equivalent of the spell? 4 levels higher for a spellcaster, 3 levels higher for a psion/psi-warrior not to mention that they don't even need to invest a feat to do this? The personal range is a disadvantage but from my reading it doesn't have the "only humanoids" restriction that enlarge person has. So in that respect, expansion is better then enlarge person since the half-giant can get the benefit of expansion while not being able to get the benefit of enlarge person. Nope, I am not doing anything useful, just random comments. Have fun all ;) (oh, and be careful about disadvantage #3, npcs have lives as well and normally do not see themselves as speed bumps. as such they use resources outside of combat just like everyone else and, assuming that they survive this encounter, might have to worry about the rest of the day. any limited resource class has this issue so it is not a psionic issue alone but some dms really like to push this button for psionics and caster types, I've never really been sure why..) As I commented before, I only do this when it makes sense. By the time the group meets the baddie psionicist or spellcaster, usually that person has close to full power points/spells available (unless the story would make sense that they wouldn't have close to 100% of their resources on them). This is how I usually play all baddie spellcasters and I use the same "rule of thumb" with psionic enemies. If the situation warrants an enemy spellcaster with most of his spells memorized, the psionic enemy in a similar situation will have most of their power points ready to use for whatever.
Bacris 06-25-06, 07:16 PM	Metapsionics costs 2 pp less than the spell equivalent because it requires psionic focus - that's a BIG restriction that no caster has to deal with.
magmer2 06-25-06, 10:58 PM	Metapsionics costs 2 pp less than the spell equivalent because it requires psionic focus - that's a BIG restriction that no caster has to deal with. Also arcane gets freescaling. A quickened Magic Missle at 9th level does 5d4+5, a quickend energy ray does 3d6+-3. An empowerd Psipower will do 15d6 at 12th level. A spell will do either 15d6 area effect or 18d6 single target.
Daeger 07-25-06, 06:46 PM	Last post on last page? Time to save this thread from the brink of destruction!
zipdrive 10-26-06, 09:31 AM	bump?
FeceMan 10-26-06, 02:32 PM	Note: It is pointless to compare the Illithid Slayer to the Eldritch Knight because the Eldritch Knight is an impotent example of a prestige class. A PrC that is made obsolete by a 6th level spell (Tenser's Transformation) is a waste of time. He was doing so well up until this part.
RadicalTaoist 10-26-06, 04:34 PM	He can actually attribute that quote to me. I stand by my statement that the Eldritch Knight is indeed a waste of time. My original statement, in fact, was that it sucks, but Sir Elton edited that to a more appropriate term.
Psion 10-26-06, 05:20 PM	So if one class compares favorably to another, is strong one overpowered or is the weak one gimpy? ;) I happen to think that the Psion is a better character than a sorcerer, but I think this is because the sorcerer is weak. Between the Illithid Slayer and the Eldritch Knight, however, I think that the Illithid Slayer is strong and the Eldritch Knight is playable as-is.
RadicalTaoist 10-26-06, 09:30 PM	+1 hp per level over normal d4 HD, a bonus feat, and +5 BAB (effectively the most you get if you take 10 levels of EK) are not worth at least two caster levels lost (one to a class that will give you the weapon profs). Especially when even buffs that cost you most of your class features (like T.T.) make you a better fighter. The Illithid Slayer is not overpowered. It's a little wonky at the end, simply because the 10th level and 9th level abilities should be switched in position, but it's fine.
Kulthos 10-27-06, 02:12 AM	Psions are overpowered compared to the PHB wizards. They are simply moe powerful. Psions are weak losers compared to wizards and sorcerers who use PHB2 and CA. A Wizard vs. Psion duel would go as follows- Psion, let's roll initiative! Wizard, I cast Celerity and a "suddenly empowered" and "suddenly maximized" booming spell and vaporize you in one shot. Psion, oh, I see..... Psion, I am a kineticist, I can do damage! Wizard, Not as much as me casting a quickened scorching ray that I empower with my cheapo empower rod and a nice blasty spell. Oh, then I cast Celerity and nuke your corpse before you have time to hit the ground. Psion, Many people claim I am powerful, and doesn't celerity daze you for a bit? Wizard, Yes, I will be dazed and miss my next turn. You will be dead and never get another turn. Psion Oh, I see....
Bacris 10-27-06, 08:52 AM	Psion / wizard duels are the worst possible way to compare the two classes in balance... unless all you play for D&D is duels with other PCs... To truly compare balance of classes, you have to look at them with their party against normal encounters - not in some arena style combat.
Kulthos 10-27-06, 10:30 AM	If someone claims that psions are wildly overpowered, but psions can be easily defeated by an existing class, then I don't think that psions are overpowered. I have seen sorcerers break games using polymorph and haste. Don't tell me psionincs are broken when existing classes can easily make a "rightous mighted" "divine powered" hasted grey render cleric. Cleric personal buffs, polymorph, divin metamagic, and properly abused metamagic feats are worse than a psion.
Nephlite 10-27-06, 10:47 AM	Psions are overpowered compared to the PHB wizards. They are simply moe powerful. Psions are weak losers compared to wizards and sorcerers who use PHB2 and CA. A Wizard vs. Psion duel would go as follows- Psion, let's roll initiative! Wizard, I cast Celerity and a "suddenly empowered" and "suddenly maximized" booming spell and vaporize you in one shot. Psion, oh, I see..... Psion, I am a kineticist, I can do damage! Wizard, Not as much as me casting a quickened scorching ray that I empower with my cheapo empower rod and a nice blasty spell. Oh, then I cast Celerity and nuke your corpse before you have time to hit the ground. Psion, Many people claim I am powerful, and doesn't celerity daze you for a bit? Wizard, Yes, I will be dazed and miss my next turn. You will be dead and never get another turn. Psion Oh, I see.... Why doesn't the wizard just use Enervation? The Psion loses highest powers known and pp/hps. Than celerity for damage as saves will be lower too.
Psion 10-27-06, 11:24 AM	Psion / wizard duels are the worst possible way to compare the two classes in balance... unless all you play for D&D is duels with other PCs... To truly compare balance of classes, you have to look at them with their party against normal encounters - not in some arena style combat. Look, I agree with Bacris about something. ;) Yup. Wizards can cherry pick from their entire list to build tactically effective option. The scry/teleport ambush combo takes extra feats to do with a psion. And sure, you can spend those feats, but then you are closed up to other tactical options that the wizard still has available. The pick-and-choose nature of wizards spells should not be underestimated.
Dumat 10-27-06, 11:38 AM	God I love this thread. Just to chime in and participate in the ruckus: Just from my experience, the balance question is always a question of your DM anyway. If your guy is running a game without thinking about the classes of his players, someone always ends up getting scre-zewed. Oversimplified example: you play a cleric but your DM never throws outsiders or undead at you. Relative power levels among classes shifts as the game progresses from low to high level anyway. Psions get killed by kobolds at low level and can death urge a white dragon into a firepit at high level. Same for all pure casters. Fighters mow through kobolds and have to grind it out against the tarrasque. Here's how I've always viewed the question of balance: does a given class eliminate the advantages of taking another class? Wizards have certain advantages, psions have certain advantages, sorcerers, etc. Saying a psion and a wizard in a spell duel is a good measure of balance is like saying a rogue and a fighter throwing down is a good measure of balance because they both rely on physical attacks.
FriendlyBiscuit 10-27-06, 12:00 PM	What really makes psions overpowered is the ability to caravan in single file to hide their numbers.
FeceMan 10-27-06, 12:14 PM	He can actually attribute that quote to me. I stand by my statement that the Eldritch Knight is indeed a waste of time. My original statement, in fact, was that it sucks, but Sir Elton edited that to a more appropriate term. Bad, bad RadicalTaoist. Bad you.
Bacris 10-27-06, 01:31 PM	Bad, bad RadicalTaoist. Bad you. Why? He's right. So many other gish PrCs have come out that make the EK a very poor choice.
FeceMan 10-27-06, 02:36 PM	Why? He's right. So many other gish PrCs have come out that make the EK a very poor choice. Tenser's Transformation does not make the eldritch knight obsolete.
Bacris 10-27-06, 02:40 PM	You sure about that? Transformation Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level You become a virtual fighting machine— stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can’t cast spells, even from magic items. You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks). You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell activation or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list. Material Component: A potion of bull’s strength, which you drink (and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects). Seems like one 6th level spell gives you everything that EK gives you without giving up 2 caster levels....
FeceMan 10-27-06, 02:54 PM	You sure about that? Seems like one 6th level spell gives you everything that EK gives you without giving up 2 caster levels.... I'd rather lose two spell levels and keep my ability to cast during combat as well as my effectiveness when I'm out of spells, thanks very much.
Kulthos 10-27-06, 03:01 PM	Look, I agree with Bacris about something. ;) The pick-and-choose nature of wizards spells should not be underestimated. One advantage wizards have is that their spells' power increases for free with with caster level, not with power point augmentation. Lesser acid/fire/frost orb spells do 5d8 at 9th level, and it still only takes up a 1st level slot. Empowered to 3rd and it does almost as much as a 10d6 energy missile, which costs 10 pp. No saving throw, of course. Psions have caps, wizards do not. The other big thing about wizards is the ability to have a lot of quickened spells that they can empower or mazimize with metamagic rods. A quickened empowered scorching ray does 18d6 damage as a free action, no save. Clerics with divine metamagic are worse than wizards, of couse.
RadicalTaoist 10-27-06, 07:53 PM	I'd rather lose two spell levels and keep my ability to cast during combat as well as my effectiveness when I'm out of spells, thanks very much. Except you're still sucky in combat with that d6 hit dice and the EK doesn't help you cast in armor. One more attack? Haste gives you that. Even a 'reasonable' use of Polymorph will give you more than the entire EK class.
FeceMan 10-28-06, 03:17 PM	Except you're still sucky in combat with that d6 hit dice and the EK doesn't help you cast in armor. One more attack? Haste gives you that. Even a 'reasonable' use of Polymorph will give you more than the entire EK class. BAB isn't just used for melee attacks, you know. There's also flanking--you don't have to be a tank to be able to make use of a good BAB. I'd much rather cast spells while having a good BAB than place all my combat effectiveness in an effect that lasts a maximum of four minutes, can be dispelled, and takes a standard action to take effect. Not to mention, I'd rather cast body of war, but that's just me.
RadicalTaoist 10-28-06, 04:01 PM	BAB isn't just used for melee attacks, you know. There's also flanking--you don't have to be a tank to be able to make use of a good BAB. I'd much rather cast spells while having a good BAB than place all my combat effectiveness in an effect that lasts a maximum of four minutes, can be dispelled, and takes a standard action to take effect. Not to mention, I'd rather cast body of war, but that's just me. Body of War > EK. Summoning something to flank > flanking as an EK. Hell, turning invisible and flanking as a non-EK > flanking as an EK.
johnkretzer 10-28-06, 06:09 PM	3) Metapsionic Feats: Does applying a metapsionic feat increase the casting time to a full round as it does with regular magic? This is a major limiting factor for spontaneous casters. 7) Limitations and Scope: I would think that Psionic characters, and the psionic game would focus on the things mentioned in the introduction along with my own preconcieved notions of what psionics aught to specialize in and accomplish. These things are divination, enchantment / charm, mental energy as a damaging energy type, stun and unconsciousness effects, telekinesis, astral travel and astral effects, curing mental damage and effects and enhancing their own personal metabolism. However, many powers and abilities do not seem to fit this psionic theme. They are far broader than I would have thought. It is almost as if they thought that a psionic could do just about anything so long as they use the words Psionically or Psionic before the power. In short, they seem to encroach upon other classes domain. Examples: Psionically shapechanging, Psionically creating materials, Psionically creating various other different energy types, Psionic Time powers, Psionically healing (HP, Physical Stat point and regeneration, not mental healing), look at the "Floating" armor enhancement for instance, what does this have to do with mental powers? I was looking these long posts and I noticed theses as examples of I have GMs say to me when they talk psionics. The first one is yes psionic metapsionic feats might appear powerful but look at it. They can activate a power with a metapsionic power as a standard action. If they want to do it again they have to take a fullround action in which they do nothing. A socerer needs to take a full round action to do so. Now it is common misunderstanding as to what this mean. I'll admitt when I first read I made the first mistake. a Full round action is not a 1 round casting time. When the sorcerer casts a spell with a metamagic effect it goes off at the end of his current action not the beinging of his next action as with Summoning spells. So a psion can manifest a power with a metapsionic effect twice every 3 rounds A sorcerer can do it three times in a round. Both have their limitions. Also psions have feat that allow them to to it at the same rate as sorcerers. Sorcerers have either a alternative class feature(PHB2) or a feat(Com. Mage) that allow then to do it faster. The theme of psionics. Well one there are spells that can be argued shouldn't be magic( again in the Complete Mage there is a spell called Crystalline Memories. If anybody who read this spell and doesn't thiunk it should be a psionic power I don't what logic you are useing) but should be psionics. So there is a lot of crosstrade. Also I'll point it breaks down in just in the PHB. Arcane magic can't heal that has always been the area of divine magic. Yet a bard can use Arcane magic to heal. Also the biggest myth is that people equate psionics with arcane magic. And Psionic is a completely different system for arcane magic so why bother with it. If you look at the system you realize a couple of thing: 1) Psionics can't be thought as another form arcane magic. It is own form of abilities to effect the outside world and yourself using a different power souce. Which is why I totaly disregard the Divine Mind class by the way. 2) Arcane and Divine as about as many differences between them as Arcane and Psionics or Divine and Psionic. If there wasn't the case why can't a bard use a cure light spells on a divine scroll without UMD? Or spells that are both Divine and Arcane have different requirments to cast them. Or if they aren't why doesn't Divine magic require you have a arcane spell failure chance or requires you to sleep eight hours? 3) There is really no difference between powers and spells. Both require a save or a touch attack roll or are auto. The only real difference I can see is that a spells are slightly more powerful because the auto-scale. If you can learn how arcane or divine magic work it should take you 5 min. to figure out psionics.
Psion 10-29-06, 01:19 AM	The first one is yes psionic metapsionic feats might appear powerful but look at it. They can activate a power with a metapsionic power as a standard action. If they want to do it again they have to take a fullround action in which they do nothing. A socerer needs to take a full round action to do so. Now it is common misunderstanding as to what this mean. I'll admitt when I first read I made the first mistake. a Full round action is not a 1 round casting time. When the sorcerer casts a spell with a metamagic effect it goes off at the end of his current action not the beinging of his next action as with Summoning spells. So a psion can manifest a power with a metapsionic effect twice every 3 rounds A sorcerer can do it three times in a round. Both have their limitions. Also psions have feat that allow them to to it at the same rate as sorcerers. Sorcerers have either a alternative class feature(PHB2) or a feat(Com. Mage) that allow then to do it faster. WotC seems to be coming to grips with the fact that the sorcerer is gimped now, and has created a half a dozen ways to mitigate the metamagic time increase thing. That said, I think the biggest consideration for metamagic that psionic characters have to endure is, again, the "no free scaling" thing. Yes, I don't need to increase my time to manifest a metapsionic enhanced power. But if I quicken a power, it doesn't do as much damage as it would if I didn't, because I spent 6 pp to quicken it. A sorcerer doesn't have that obstacle.
FeceMan 10-29-06, 12:50 PM	Body of War > EK. Summoning something to flank > flanking as an EK. Hell, turning invisible and flanking as a non-EK > flanking as an EK. Body of war does not affect your BAB ;). Furthermore, a straight wizard won't hit anything while flanking.
RadicalTaoist 10-29-06, 04:28 PM	An EK who went for minimum CLs lost only has +5 to hit on a straight wizard by level 20. If you want to provide flanking, provide flanking. If you actually want to gish and hit stuff, then do better than Eldritch Knight.
Psion 10-29-06, 07:01 PM	Seems like one 6th level spell gives you everything that EK gives you without giving up 2 caster levels.... Tenser's Transformation costs you all of your spell levels. And a potion. It turns a wizard into a second string fighter, not a gish.
Psion 10-29-06, 07:06 PM	An EK who went for minimum CLs lost only has +5 to hit on a straight wizard by level 20. With Abjurant Champion in hand, I'd never dream of that. :)
RadicalTaoist 10-29-06, 07:28 PM	Tenser's Transformation costs you all of your spell levels. And a potion. It turns a wizard into a second string fighter, not a gish. Which makes it really sad that you're better off taking it for that short period of time you're actually fighting than taking any levels in EK.With Abjurant Champion in hand, I'd never dream of that. :) And you never should. The increase in the capability of arcane gish PrCs beyond the sadness that is the EK is one good side effect of splatbook power creep.
Bacris 10-29-06, 07:32 PM	Except that if you're trying to be a fighter, TT would be the last spell you cast before wading into melee :) So the "cost" is minimal compared to 2 permanently lost caster levels.
Psion 10-29-06, 09:14 PM	Except that if you're trying to be a fighter, TT would be the last spell you cast before wading into melee :) So the "cost" is minimal compared to 2 permanently lost caster levels. Which boils this down to a "smackdown" analysis assuming everything is going to go your way and no tactical situations develop that you are going to have to react to. I.E., not a real game. As I said early, AFAIAC, the factor about wizards that makes them hold their own against the psion is their tactical and strategic flexibility of their spell selection. I don't beleive that dumping your ability to cast spells is something I'd take lightly unless you had a very flexible backup caster in the party. Not to mention, this trick's only good for one combat. If you go by the 4/day assumption, that's not just one spell you are dumping. It's 4 if you want to pretend to be a gish in every combat. You won't be able to do it when you first start casting 6th level spells, and by the time you can do it, you are going to have better spells available that are going to make voluntarily giving up the ability to cast every time you engage in this wannabe gish tactic.
RadicalTaoist 10-29-06, 11:46 PM	Agreed. Which is why it is really sad that it makes you a better wannabe gish than the person who actually lost CLs and went into a PrC for this thing.
Kulthos 10-29-06, 11:48 PM	As I said early, AFAIAC, the factor about wizards that makes them hold their own against the psion is their tactical and strategic flexibility of their spell selection. I don't beleive that dumping your ability to cast spells is something I'd take lightly unless you had a very flexible backup caster in the party. I think the biggest thing wizards get is the ability to load up on metamagic feats on spells. A wizard with empower spell, maximize spell, quicken spell, sudden maximize, sudden empower, and later sudden quicken can really blaze off a bunch of damage in a short time. One of the ultimate tricks is a suddenly quickened, suddenly maximized, suddenly empowered meteor swarm, followed up with a plain old unmodified meteor swarm. That is 400 points in one round, no save, if you can make the ranged touches. A psion with a focussed psicrystal can get off two metapsionic feats, total, before having to spend time re-focussing. They just can't match the hardcore blasting of an optimized wizard. IMHO the "sudden" metamagic feats are a horrible idea.
Psion 10-30-06, 09:27 AM	Agreed. That Tenser's Transformation makes you a second string fighter. Good. Which is why it is really sad that it makes you a better wannabe gish than the person who actually lost CLs and went into a PrC for this thing. On this we obvsiously do not agree. See post 554 for why.
johnkretzer 10-30-06, 02:41 PM	I think the biggest thing wizards get is the ability to load up on metamagic feats on spells. A wizard with empower spell, maximize spell, quicken spell, sudden maximize, sudden empower, and later sudden quicken can really blaze off a bunch of damage in a short time. One of the ultimate tricks is a suddenly quickened, suddenly maximized, suddenly empowered meteor swarm, followed up with a plain old unmodified meteor swarm. That is 400 points in one round, no save, if you can make the ranged touches. A psion with a focussed psicrystal can get off two metapsionic feats, total, before having to spend time re-focussing. They just can't match the hardcore blasting of an optimized wizard. IMHO the "sudden" metamagic feats are a horrible idea. They aren't bad they just need to be errata like most abilities that do the same thing. If you can't cast a spell of the level it would after being modified then you can't cast it. I.E.: The mero swarm from you example would be only be allowed if you can cast a spell that is 18th level. Which is possible you just need a whole lot of epic feats
Psion 10-30-06, 03:06 PM	I.E.: The mero swarm from you example would be only be allowed if you can cast a spell that is 18th level. Which is possible you just need a whole lot of epic feats He was referring to the sudden metamagic feats, which have limited uses but don't boost levels.
FeceMan 10-30-06, 05:02 PM	An EK who went for minimum CLs lost only has +5 to hit on a straight wizard by level 20. If you want to provide flanking, provide flanking. If you actually want to gish and hit stuff, then do better than Eldritch Knight. 3/4 BAB > 1/2 BAB. And iterative attacks. Though, I would agree, that taking levels solely in eldritch knight is sub-par now that so many PrCs exist now. (Ironically enough, a build I was working on earlier this summer made me very frustrated because I couldn't get part of it to work correctly...and the abjurant champion solved that.) Once again, effectiveness when not under the effects of a certain spell must be taken into account.
Red_Decker 10-30-06, 07:54 PM	With EK you only have to lose one CL with the cost of a single feat. Militia, PGTF gives you proficientcy with all martial weapons. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
johnkretzer 10-30-06, 08:16 PM	He was referring to the sudden metamagic feats, which have limited uses but don't boost levels. I know I was refering to nerf for magic. It has precedent in things like the incantrix( FR PrC) and divinemetamagic.) I thought I was clear. For instance you are a 8th wizard since the highlest level spell you cat is 4th you can't sudden Quicken any spell but 0 levels. I know they will never nerf magic but hey one can dream.
FeceMan 10-30-06, 10:45 PM	With EK you only have to lose one CL with the cost of a single feat. Militia, PGTF gives you proficientcy with all martial weapons. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt I'd rather, at the simplest, go fighter 2/wizard 8/eldritch knight 10.
Bacris 10-30-06, 11:40 PM	Because Forgotten Realms feats should be used as benchmarks for balanced ;) With FR PrCs, the EK is not only mediocre, it's obsolete.
johnkretzer 10-31-06, 01:35 AM	Because Forgotten Realms feats should be used as benchmarks for balanced ;) With FR PrCs, the EK is not only mediocre, it's obsolete. ah it is funny. The FR is Broken. Psionics is Broken. It is the same thing to me neither are broken. Just misunderstood.
Bacris 10-31-06, 08:42 AM	Did I say FR as a whole was broken? But using an example from FR to compare to a Core Rulebook II class is like using Complete Mage feats to compare to Core Rulebook I feats - it's not apples to apples. Every extra splatbook that WotC puts out increases the power creep - FR is a high-powered campaign and, therefore, examples from it are typically not on par with Core material.
johnkretzer 10-31-06, 03:21 PM	Did I say FR as a whole was broken? But using an example from FR to compare to a Core Rulebook II class is like using Complete Mage feats to compare to Core Rulebook I feats - it's not apples to apples. Every extra splatbook that WotC puts out increases the power creep - FR is a high-powered campaign and, therefore, examples from it are typically not on par with Core material. Ah I thought you were refering to something else.
Red_Decker 11-03-06, 08:03 PM	Because Forgotten Realms feats should be used as benchmarks for balanced ;) With FR PrCs, the EK is not only mediocre, it's obsolete. I didn't realise I was arguing for or against balance. I was merely pointing out a simple fact, that fact being you don't have to lose more then one CL with EK. Didn't say anything about effectivness or a build of any kind. http://www.geocities.com/customsmiliesbyswordmaster/inthered.txt
Traevanon 11-04-06, 09:05 AM	I was looking these long posts and I noticed theses as examples of I have GMs say to me when they talk psionics. The first one is yes psionic metapsionic feats might appear powerful but look at it. They can activate a power with a metapsionic power as a standard action. If they want to do it again they have to take a fullround action in which they do nothing. A socerer needs to take a full round action to do so. Now it is common misunderstanding as to what this mean. I'll admitt when I first read I made the first mistake. a Full round action is not a 1 round casting time. When the sorcerer casts a spell with a metamagic effect it goes off at the end of his current action not the beinging of his next action as with Summoning spells. So a psion can manifest a power with a metapsionic effect twice every 3 rounds A sorcerer can do it three times in a round. Both have their limitions. Also psions have feat that allow them to to it at the same rate as sorcerers. Sorcerers have either a alternative class feature(PHB2) or a feat(Com. Mage) that allow then to do it faster. The theme of psionics. Well one there are spells that can be argued shouldn't be magic( again in the Complete Mage there is a spell called Crystalline Memories. If anybody who read this spell and doesn't thiunk it should be a psionic power I don't what logic you are useing) but should be psionics. So there is a lot of crosstrade. Also I'll point it breaks down in just in the PHB. Arcane magic can't heal that has always been the area of divine magic. Yet a bard can use Arcane magic to heal. Also the biggest myth is that people equate psionics with arcane magic. And Psionic is a completely different system for arcane magic so why bother with it. If you look at the system you realize a couple of thing: 1) Psionics can't be thought as another form arcane magic. It is own form of abilities to effect the outside world and yourself using a different power souce. Which is why I totaly disregard the Divine Mind class by the way. 2) Arcane and Divine as about as many differences between them as Arcane and Psionics or Divine and Psionic. If there wasn't the case why can't a bard use a cure light spells on a divine scroll without UMD? Or spells that are both Divine and Arcane have different requirments to cast them. Or if they aren't why doesn't Divine magic require you have a arcane spell failure chance or requires you to sleep eight hours? 3) There is really no difference between powers and spells. Both require a save or a touch attack roll or are auto. The only real difference I can see is that a spells are slightly more powerful because the auto-scale. If you can learn how arcane or divine magic work it should take you 5 min. to figure out psionics. I've returned and found that I've been quoted from months ago. If JohnKretzer is still around from a week ago I'll reply more directly later when I have time. Let me point out though that the last section of his reply is unclear to me. Specifically #1, #2 and #3 above. I'm not sure if he is talking about mechanics or flavor, and whether he is trying to prove that the items I listed as being "out of bounds" in my opinion for Psionic characters are acceptable to him or not.
FeceMan 11-04-06, 11:59 AM	Don't forget that psionic characters can't swap out their powers like a sorcerer can his spells.
myusernameis 11-04-06, 10:48 PM	Not to mention, I'd rather cast body of war, but that's just me.Why not Body of War set to trigger a contingent Tenser's Transformation?
FeceMan 11-05-06, 07:59 PM	Viability independent of spells--not relying on not only having the particular spell prepared and available to cast, but a contingent spell as well.
Vloorshad 11-06-06, 02:16 AM	Viability independent of spells--not relying on not only having the particular spell prepared and available to cast, but a contingent spell as well. Not exactly that hard to accomplish with a Wizard. Researching spells, or just flat out choosing them and taking Craft Contingent Spell feat. Granted, not every Wizard will be doing this, but every Wizard will have access to this at minimal cost.
FeceMan 11-06-06, 02:41 PM	Not exactly that hard to accomplish with a Wizard. Researching spells, or just flat out choosing them and taking Craft Contingent Spell feat. Granted, not every Wizard will be doing this, but every Wizard will have access to this at minimal cost. Oh, I know. I'm just saying that Tenser's does not replace the eldritch knight. As I said earlier, I'd much rather have +16 BAB and the ability to cast spells than have +20 BAB and not.
Sir Elton 11-06-06, 03:37 PM	Why? He's right. So many other gish PrCs have come out that make the EK a very poor choice. The eldritch knight is a poor choice. Even as a base class. Tensers Transformation, however, is a gish spell. But your giving up spellcasting to put the hurt on your enemies, which is a fair trade. But it's still a gish spell. Specifically, it's a last resort spell, even though yours truly used the spell at first while playing Neverwinter Nights. Bar none, its a useful little spell if your wizard is going out by himself. You can put the hurt on Dragons and actually kill them if you are smart enough and quick enough to get out of the way. Fortunately, there isn't a psychic power that I know of that will transform you into a Juggernaut like Tenser's Transformation. Unless I'm wrong (I've read the XPH forwards and backwards, and I'm sure I would have noticed one).
Bacris 11-06-06, 03:49 PM	The closest would be Form of Doom, which only grants AC, DR and STR... well, and bonus movement and tentacles, but not the extra BAB. Attainable at 13th level psion, 14th level wilder.
Vloorshad 11-06-06, 05:10 PM	Oh, I know. I'm just saying that Tenser's does not replace the eldritch knight. As I said earlier, I'd much rather have +16 BAB and the ability to cast spells than have +20 BAB and not. I'd still take full casting progression with Wizard feats and contingent Tenser's with a Body of War than EK.
magmer2 11-06-06, 05:29 PM	I'd still take full casting progression with Wizard feats and contingent Tenser's with a Body of War than EK. I would take the ability to go "dear god there is a dragon, a death slaad, and a balor, see ya":teleports: to that.
Lokiyn 11-06-06, 07:01 PM	Fortunately, there isn't a psychic power that I know of that will transform you into a Juggernaut like Tenser's Transformation. Unless I'm wrong (I've read the XPH forwards and backwards, and I'm sure I would have noticed one). Combat Transformation (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827e)
Sir Elton 11-06-06, 08:57 PM	hehehe. I knew about Combat Transformation. But it wasn't added to the XPH, so it can be safely ignored. :D
Lokiyn 11-06-06, 09:20 PM	True, I once weaseled in Mental Rage, schism, and Combat Transformation into a one shot soley so i could go "Super Saiyajin" (dumb build but good for a wtf)
Kulthos 11-07-06, 12:40 AM	Given Rightous Might, I can't get that worked up about TT or combat transformation. A barbarian/cleric of strength with a greatsword is a little more impressive.
Sir Elton 11-07-06, 01:14 AM	Given Rightous Might, I can't get that worked up about TT or combat transformation. A barbarian/cleric of strength with a greatsword is a little more impressive. I'm not going to be caught in the power creep trap. :D
Desvelar 11-14-06, 01:26 AM	Let me just make point Dnd: Broken Fr:Broken Ebberon:Broken Wizards Site:Broken XPH:Broken Dragon Mag:Broken Dungeon Mag:Broken GreyHawk:Broken Starwars:Broken D20Future:Broken CO boards:Broken and the Breakers Personal Creations of anyones :Breakable most of the time(I havent seen anything taht i cant destroy yet) Everything is broken It just depends how you use it becuase I mean really its no fun to break everything in dnd. thats what kicking players out are for or having a all out broken game.
Tsuul 11-14-06, 04:16 AM	Wizards Site:BrokenSearch function will be fixed eventualy!!! :D
Bacris 11-14-06, 08:58 AM	Let me just make point Everything is broken It just depends how you use it becuase I mean really its no fun to break everything in dnd. thats what kicking players out are for or having a all out broken game. I don't know that you really made your point, tho, because the problem is not "can xyz be broken" the problem is people coming to the board every week and posting the same topic over and over - namely "OMG, THIS IS SO B0RKEN! HOW CAN YOU USE THIS?!?!?!!111ONE!!" and the like. Sure, you can break the bard, sorceror, or probably the marshall if you really tried - that's really not the point of this thread.
Desvelar 11-15-06, 06:22 PM	Bacris: The piont i am making about people saying stuff is broken is that nothing is ever broken. Its just that if you say use that combo IE pun pun you are choosing to ruin the game. Tsuul: Some of the tricks the search function on the boards was disabled.
Shantak 03-17-07, 07:42 PM	Hello everyone, how are you all? Well i'm fine :) . But my point is that i too believe that 'psionic' is a bit stronger than 'magic'. I'll try to example on those following powers: *Inertial armor: hour/level AC that gets stronger fast and is effective against touch attacks. *Ego whip: Cha damage, enough to drop ugly monsters on a single shot. *Hustle: cheap way for extra move action. *Claws of vampire: free combo with claws of the beast. Err, i can only remeber those for now, that's mostly based on a somewhat bad game where our kalashtar-psiwarrior seemed much more battle-efficient than the rest of the party.
Scion of Coldshard 03-17-07, 07:54 PM	Would you prefer us to find things in magic that are equivalent or would you prefer that we say that some things are stronger in psionics and some things are stronger in magic? ;) For the first I believe that mage armor has greater versions in different books which follow the same formula, ego whip strong enough to drop a big guy on a failed save means that a will save or die could've done the same job, spellcasters have access to spells like snakes swiftness and the mass version, and I am not sure what you are going for on the last bit (if you have 5d6 claws then you might heal an average of 8.75 damage per hit if all of the other conditions are met and claws of the vampire is a very short duration buff, typically the higher level vigor type spells provide more healing with less restrictions).
Bacris 03-17-07, 08:11 PM	*Inertial armor: hour/level AC that gets stronger fast and is effective against touch attacks. Incorporeal touch attacks only - sorry to disappoint - it doesn't work on all touch attacks.
Lokiyn 03-17-07, 09:36 PM	My sig has one of the more detailed Ego whip charts, Basically ego whip has a very low chance of taking out someone in one hit, you can whittle someone or something down but on average its going to take you a few rounds. IN the mean time the wizard dropped it with a save or die.