Naberius vestige and Body Fuel feat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Naberius vestige and Body Fuel feat? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jay_Ibero_911
02-07-08, 10:40 AM Not terribly familiar with psionics, and I was wondering if there was a specific ruling on this combination. Specifically the Naberius vestige useable by the Binder base class from Tome of Magic and the Body Fuel psionic feat. The Naberius vestige grants "faster ability healing", you heal 1 point in each damage ability score each round. Now I know that "ability burn damage" says it "cannot be magically or psionically healed", so I was wondering if the rapid healing granted by the vestige would work. All vestige granted powers are supernatural, and supernatural abilities are considered magical. So I guess it comes down to: Does it work because it's just accelerated natural healing, or does it not work because the source of the ability is a magical effect? Obviously it's broken if it works, but I was hoping for clarification either way...
Nephlite
02-07-08, 11:04 AM Not terribly familiar with psionics, and I was wondering if there was a specific ruling on this combination. Specifically the Naberius vestige useable by the Binder base class from Tome of Magic and the Body Fuel psionic feat. The Naberius vestige grants "faster ability healing", you heal 1 point in each damage ability score each round. Now I know that "ability burn damage" says it "cannot be magically or psionically healed", so I was wondering if the rapid healing granted by the vestige would work. All vestige granted powers are supernatural, and supernatural abilities are considered magical. So I guess it comes down to: Does it work because it's just accelerated natural healing, or does it not work because the source of the ability is a magical effect? Obviously it's broken if it works, but I was hoping for clarification either way...

Ability burn is not damage. Nab only heals damage.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-07-08, 11:21 AM Ability burn is not damage. Nab only heals damage.

Gonna have to do better than that:

Ability Burn: This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing.

So it is quite explicitly a sub-category of ability damage.

Edit: It also seems that the Strongheart Vest soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum could be used in conjuction with Body Fuel, and even more effectively at that...Instead of taking and then recovering the damage, you just prevent the damage to begin with and get free power points...

Also...the feat doesn't specify, but does it take a specific action to use the body fuel feat?
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi
02-07-08, 12:10 PM You need to actually pay the price of an ability to make use of it. Being able to avoid taking the ability burn in the first place prevents you from using the ability. I know I've seen that ruling referenced to frequently. If only I knew where to get a quote . . . It must be somewhere on the CharOps. As for Naberius, I think you said it pretty well yourself. It's a magical effect that restores your ability scores. Ability burn can only be recovered the natural way. No go. I don't even see where the question is. You've quoted the answer yourself.
InkBlot
02-07-08, 12:12 PM Ability burn can't be magically healed. Naberius heals ability damage magically. Naberius can't heal ability burn.

And before you say it, supernatural abilities are explicitly magical.

Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See the table below for a summary of the types of special abilities.
AntiDjinn
02-07-08, 12:59 PM Ability Burn: This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing.

That pretty much answers your question. How do you get your stat points back? Through natural healing. What else heals it? Nothing else, it is quiet explicit that natural healing is the only way to recover from ability burn. Is the healing granted by Naberius natural (in other words, does every living being bind Naberius each day in order to recover from whatever wounds it might have suffered)? No. It is explicitly supernatural, which is by definition not natural.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-07-08, 01:33 PM You need to actually pay the price of an ability to make use of it. Being able to avoid taking the ability burn in the first place prevents you from using the ability. I know I've seen that ruling referenced to frequently. If only I knew where to get a quote . . . It must be somewhere on the CharOps. As for Naberius, I think you said it pretty well yourself. It's a magical effect that restores your ability scores. Ability burn can only be recovered the natural way. No go. I don't even see where the question is. You've quoted the answer yourself.

A good and sensible ruling indeed...It would be great to see an official source...otherwise it seems the Strongheart Vest, or simply being an undead psion with Body Fuel is capable of unlimited power points...
CrimsonDeath
02-07-08, 01:43 PM A good and sensible ruling indeed...It would be great to see an official source...otherwise it seems the Strongheart Vest, or simply being an undead psion with Body Fuel is capable of unlimited power points...

Well, the Sage has said, on multiple occasions, that Hellfire Warlock + Strongheart Vest "doesn't work". Although it was never clarified what happens if you try it, there is apparently some point of failure-- either the Hellfire Blast doesn't go off, or the Constitution damage penetrates the vest. Body Fuel is similar enough to Hellfire Blast that it probably interacts in the same manner with Strongheart Vest.

They are, however, different enough that they'll interact differently with Naberius. Since Hellfire Blast inflicts normal ability damage, Naberius ought to work fine. I think InkBlot already covered why Naberius can't heal the ability burn caused by Body Fuel.
AntiDjinn
02-07-08, 02:14 PM As far as undead and Body Fuel: The combo is useless.

"You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage..."

The recovery it tied to taking the damage, not inflicting it. If you inflict ability burn on yourself but it is blocked by immunity then you do not take the damage and by the wording of the feat don't recover a single power point.

Also: "Special: Only living creatures can use this feat."

In case the first point slips by a DM, the second is unambiguous.
Jay_Ibero_911
02-07-08, 02:14 PM Well, the Sage has said, on multiple occasions, that Hellfire Warlock + Strongheart Vest "doesn't work". Although it was never clarified what happens if you try it, there is apparently some point of failure-- either the Hellfire Blast doesn't go off, or the Constitution damage penetrates the vest. Body Fuel is similar enough to Hellfire Blast that it probably interacts in the same manner with Strongheart Vest.

They are, however, different enough that they'll interact differently with Naberius. Since Hellfire Blast inflicts normal ability damage, Naberius ought to work fine. I think InkBlot already covered why Naberius can't heal the ability burn caused by Body Fuel.

Well the problem with Strongheart Vest and Hellfire Warlock is that it explicitly states it doesn't work if you don't actually take the con damage for whatever reason, which is why 1 level of Binder is often suggested for a Hellfire Warlock instead. Hellfire Blast is one of the only abilities I've found that specifically states that it doesn't work if the damage is prevented, and it uses a flavor justification for it.

Edit: Didn't notice the other post before posting the above...

As far as undead and Body Fuel: The combo is useless.

"You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage..."

The recovery it tied to taking the damage, not inflicting it. If you inflict ability burn on yourself but it is blocked by immunity then you do not take the damage and by the wording of the feat don't recover a single power point.

Also: "Special: Only living creatures can use this feat."

In case the first point slips by a DM, the second is unambiguous.

Well that takes care of Undead and Constructs using the feat. And it's a fair logical argument for it not working...if not ironclad RAW. I think of it similar to MtG timing rules. You activate Body Fuel, the ability burn goes on the stack along with the power points, the stack resolves, with the damage being prevented by the soulmeld and the power points hitting your reserve. A similar combination seems to be frequently suggested on the character optimization board, Strongheart Vest and the Stigmata exalted feat for unlimited healing for nothing but a feat and alignment cost...
CrimsonDeath
02-07-08, 09:37 PM Well the problem with Strongheart Vest and Hellfire Warlock is that it explicitly states it doesn't work if you don't actually take the con damage for whatever reason, which is why 1 level of Binder is often suggested for a Hellfire Warlock instead. Hellfire Blast is one of the only abilities I've found that specifically states that it doesn't work if the damage is prevented, and it uses a flavor justification for it.
No, Hellfire Warlock explicitly states that it doesn't work if you are "somehow immune" to Constitution damage. It doesn't specifically address resistance or damage reduction, either of which is different from immunity.

Well that takes care of Undead and Constructs using the feat. And it's a fair logical argument for it not working...if not ironclad RAW. I think of it similar to MtG timing rules. You activate Body Fuel, the ability burn goes on the stack along with the power points, the stack resolves, with the damage being prevented by the soulmeld and the power points hitting your reserve. A similar combination seems to be frequently suggested on the character optimization board, Strongheart Vest and the Stigmata exalted feat for unlimited healing for nothing but a feat and alignment cost...
I've never seen that suggestion on the CharOp board. Where is it, the later pages of the "You don't need a Cleric" thread?

And I don't think using M:tG rules is a good way to rationalize D&D effects, any more than using Monopoly rules will help you in a game of Battleship.
Jaid
02-07-08, 11:15 PM Well that takes care of Undead and Constructs using the feat. And it's a fair logical argument for it not working...if not ironclad RAW.
actually, it is ironclad RAW. RAW meaning Rules As Written, and the Rules As Written explicitly saying that by taking ability burn you can recover power points. how much ability burn have you taken if you have prevented it all? none. zero. zip. zilch. nada. therefore, how many power points do you recover? none. zero. zip. zilch. nada. on account of 2 power points per ability burn taken multiplied by 0 points of ability burn taken is still 0. funny how that works, isn't it?

it's not as if there aren't cheesy ways of recharging your power points anyways... if you're going to abuse the rules with a loophole and your DM is actually going to allow it, why are you so dead-set on exploiting a loophole that isn't there when there are several loopholes that *are* there?
TravisOfTheCosmose
02-09-08, 09:01 PM I think of it similar to MtG timing rules. You activate Body Fuel, the ability burn goes on the stack along with the power points, the stack resolves, with the damage being prevented by the soulmeld and the power points hitting your reserve.Yeah, no. By MtG rules, timing has nothing to with it. You pay the cost to activate the ability, not the other way around. In instances of effects that are like, "Pay 3 life: Do X action." The "pay 3 life" never goes on the stack, and you ALWAYS lose three life, else you don't activate the effect.

Alas, I haven't played competitive Magic for about 8 years or so, though, I don't believe the rules on paying costs for activated abilities have changed...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 02-07-08, 10:40 AM	Not terribly familiar with psionics, and I was wondering if there was a specific ruling on this combination. Specifically the Naberius vestige useable by the Binder base class from Tome of Magic and the Body Fuel psionic feat. The Naberius vestige grants "faster ability healing", you heal 1 point in each damage ability score each round. Now I know that "ability burn damage" says it "cannot be magically or psionically healed", so I was wondering if the rapid healing granted by the vestige would work. All vestige granted powers are supernatural, and supernatural abilities are considered magical. So I guess it comes down to: Does it work because it's just accelerated natural healing, or does it not work because the source of the ability is a magical effect? Obviously it's broken if it works, but I was hoping for clarification either way...
Nephlite 02-07-08, 11:04 AM	Not terribly familiar with psionics, and I was wondering if there was a specific ruling on this combination. Specifically the Naberius vestige useable by the Binder base class from Tome of Magic and the Body Fuel psionic feat. The Naberius vestige grants "faster ability healing", you heal 1 point in each damage ability score each round. Now I know that "ability burn damage" says it "cannot be magically or psionically healed", so I was wondering if the rapid healing granted by the vestige would work. All vestige granted powers are supernatural, and supernatural abilities are considered magical. So I guess it comes down to: Does it work because it's just accelerated natural healing, or does it not work because the source of the ability is a magical effect? Obviously it's broken if it works, but I was hoping for clarification either way... Ability burn is not damage. Nab only heals damage.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-07-08, 11:21 AM	Ability burn is not damage. Nab only heals damage. Gonna have to do better than that: Ability Burn: This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing. So it is quite explicitly a sub-category of ability damage. Edit: It also seems that the Strongheart Vest soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum could be used in conjuction with Body Fuel, and even more effectively at that...Instead of taking and then recovering the damage, you just prevent the damage to begin with and get free power points... Also...the feat doesn't specify, but does it take a specific action to use the body fuel feat?
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 02-07-08, 12:10 PM	You need to actually pay the price of an ability to make use of it. Being able to avoid taking the ability burn in the first place prevents you from using the ability. I know I've seen that ruling referenced to frequently. If only I knew where to get a quote . . . It must be somewhere on the CharOps. As for Naberius, I think you said it pretty well yourself. It's a magical effect that restores your ability scores. Ability burn can only be recovered the natural way. No go. I don't even see where the question is. You've quoted the answer yourself.
InkBlot 02-07-08, 12:12 PM	Ability burn can't be magically healed. Naberius heals ability damage magically. Naberius can't heal ability burn. And before you say it, supernatural abilities are explicitly magical. Supernatural Abilities (Su): Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells. See the table below for a summary of the types of special abilities.
AntiDjinn 02-07-08, 12:59 PM	Ability Burn: This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing. That pretty much answers your question. How do you get your stat points back? Through natural healing. What else heals it? Nothing else, it is quiet explicit that natural healing is the only way to recover from ability burn. Is the healing granted by Naberius natural (in other words, does every living being bind Naberius each day in order to recover from whatever wounds it might have suffered)? No. It is explicitly supernatural, which is by definition not natural.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-07-08, 01:33 PM	You need to actually pay the price of an ability to make use of it. Being able to avoid taking the ability burn in the first place prevents you from using the ability. I know I've seen that ruling referenced to frequently. If only I knew where to get a quote . . . It must be somewhere on the CharOps. As for Naberius, I think you said it pretty well yourself. It's a magical effect that restores your ability scores. Ability burn can only be recovered the natural way. No go. I don't even see where the question is. You've quoted the answer yourself. A good and sensible ruling indeed...It would be great to see an official source...otherwise it seems the Strongheart Vest, or simply being an undead psion with Body Fuel is capable of unlimited power points...
CrimsonDeath 02-07-08, 01:43 PM	A good and sensible ruling indeed...It would be great to see an official source...otherwise it seems the Strongheart Vest, or simply being an undead psion with Body Fuel is capable of unlimited power points... Well, the Sage has said, on multiple occasions, that Hellfire Warlock + Strongheart Vest "doesn't work". Although it was never clarified what happens if you try it, there is apparently some point of failure-- either the Hellfire Blast doesn't go off, or the Constitution damage penetrates the vest. Body Fuel is similar enough to Hellfire Blast that it probably interacts in the same manner with Strongheart Vest. They are, however, different enough that they'll interact differently with Naberius. Since Hellfire Blast inflicts normal ability damage, Naberius ought to work fine. I think InkBlot already covered why Naberius can't heal the ability burn caused by Body Fuel.
AntiDjinn 02-07-08, 02:14 PM	As far as undead and Body Fuel: The combo is useless. "You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage..." The recovery it tied to taking the damage, not inflicting it. If you inflict ability burn on yourself but it is blocked by immunity then you do not take the damage and by the wording of the feat don't recover a single power point. Also: "Special: Only living creatures can use this feat." In case the first point slips by a DM, the second is unambiguous.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-07-08, 02:14 PM	Well, the Sage has said, on multiple occasions, that Hellfire Warlock + Strongheart Vest "doesn't work". Although it was never clarified what happens if you try it, there is apparently some point of failure-- either the Hellfire Blast doesn't go off, or the Constitution damage penetrates the vest. Body Fuel is similar enough to Hellfire Blast that it probably interacts in the same manner with Strongheart Vest. They are, however, different enough that they'll interact differently with Naberius. Since Hellfire Blast inflicts normal ability damage, Naberius ought to work fine. I think InkBlot already covered why Naberius can't heal the ability burn caused by Body Fuel. Well the problem with Strongheart Vest and Hellfire Warlock is that it explicitly states it doesn't work if you don't actually take the con damage for whatever reason, which is why 1 level of Binder is often suggested for a Hellfire Warlock instead. Hellfire Blast is one of the only abilities I've found that specifically states that it doesn't work if the damage is prevented, and it uses a flavor justification for it. Edit: Didn't notice the other post before posting the above... As far as undead and Body Fuel: The combo is useless. "You can recover 2 power points by taking 1 point of ability burn damage..." The recovery it tied to taking the damage, not inflicting it. If you inflict ability burn on yourself but it is blocked by immunity then you do not take the damage and by the wording of the feat don't recover a single power point. Also: "Special: Only living creatures can use this feat." In case the first point slips by a DM, the second is unambiguous. Well that takes care of Undead and Constructs using the feat. And it's a fair logical argument for it not working...if not ironclad RAW. I think of it similar to MtG timing rules. You activate Body Fuel, the ability burn goes on the stack along with the power points, the stack resolves, with the damage being prevented by the soulmeld and the power points hitting your reserve. A similar combination seems to be frequently suggested on the character optimization board, Strongheart Vest and the Stigmata exalted feat for unlimited healing for nothing but a feat and alignment cost...
CrimsonDeath 02-07-08, 09:37 PM	Well the problem with Strongheart Vest and Hellfire Warlock is that it explicitly states it doesn't work if you don't actually take the con damage for whatever reason, which is why 1 level of Binder is often suggested for a Hellfire Warlock instead. Hellfire Blast is one of the only abilities I've found that specifically states that it doesn't work if the damage is prevented, and it uses a flavor justification for it. No, Hellfire Warlock explicitly states that it doesn't work if you are "somehow immune" to Constitution damage. It doesn't specifically address resistance or damage reduction, either of which is different from immunity. Well that takes care of Undead and Constructs using the feat. And it's a fair logical argument for it not working...if not ironclad RAW. I think of it similar to MtG timing rules. You activate Body Fuel, the ability burn goes on the stack along with the power points, the stack resolves, with the damage being prevented by the soulmeld and the power points hitting your reserve. A similar combination seems to be frequently suggested on the character optimization board, Strongheart Vest and the Stigmata exalted feat for unlimited healing for nothing but a feat and alignment cost... I've never seen that suggestion on the CharOp board. Where is it, the later pages of the "You don't need a Cleric" thread? And I don't think using M:tG rules is a good way to rationalize D&D effects, any more than using Monopoly rules will help you in a game of Battleship.
Jaid 02-07-08, 11:15 PM	Well that takes care of Undead and Constructs using the feat. And it's a fair logical argument for it not working...if not ironclad RAW. actually, it is ironclad RAW. RAW meaning Rules As Written, and the Rules As Written explicitly saying that by taking ability burn you can recover power points. how much ability burn have you taken if you have prevented it all? none. zero. zip. zilch. nada. therefore, how many power points do you recover? none. zero. zip. zilch. nada. on account of 2 power points per ability burn taken multiplied by 0 points of ability burn taken is still 0. funny how that works, isn't it? it's not as if there aren't cheesy ways of recharging your power points anyways... if you're going to abuse the rules with a loophole and your DM is actually going to allow it, why are you so dead-set on exploiting a loophole that isn't there when there are several loopholes that are there?
TravisOfTheCosmose 02-09-08, 09:01 PM	I think of it similar to MtG timing rules. You activate Body Fuel, the ability burn goes on the stack along with the power points, the stack resolves, with the damage being prevented by the soulmeld and the power points hitting your reserve.Yeah, no. By MtG rules, timing has nothing to with it. You pay the cost to activate the ability, not the other way around. In instances of effects that are like, "Pay 3 life: Do X action." The "pay 3 life" never goes on the stack, and you ALWAYS lose three life, else you don't activate the effect. Alas, I haven't played competitive Magic for about 8 years or so, though, I don't believe the rules on paying costs for activated abilities have changed...