Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Excrotor 02-03-07, 10:38 PM	Hello! I am designing a half-dragon PC and I have encounter a rare doubt. A medium half dragon have an innate 1d6 claw attack. The idea is to use powers like "claws of the beast" or "claws of darkness". The half-dragon uses 5 power points in the power activation. How much is the new damage will it be doing with the claws?? Only 1d8? Doesn't it stack? Thanks you
Tempest Stormwind 02-03-07, 10:48 PM	You would use the better of the two. Claws of the Beast does not enhance existing claws, it provides new ones.
Excrotor 02-03-07, 11:08 PM	I do not see it logical. One is a race special "bonus" and the other is a magical "bonus". Apart, if you have innate claws, you are not winning nothing from the power but the capability to do some more damage (as you have already 2 claws attack in full round attack action from the half-dragon template). I think that the writer of the power did not thinked in the posibility of a creature already having natural weapons using this type of powers. Or maybe yes but they did no write nothing about it. This is what I am thinking about: you need much less energy to convert a rifle into a bazooka than to convert a knive to a bazooka. If you want to limit the bazooka to only be usable for 10th characters... then that is another history ;P Do you get my point? But I am not here to argue... I, as a simple player, will be using the non-stacking version unless there is some type of 'official' answer saying that I can stack natural claws with the effects of the power.
Tempest Stormwind 02-03-07, 11:12 PM	Look at it this way. Claws of the Beast says you gain claws. It does NOT say you improve your existing claws. Therefore, there is no reason to assume existing claws interact with claws of the beast at all.
Excrotor 02-03-07, 11:20 PM	Anyway it is a superd power.
Excrotor 02-14-07, 07:32 AM	Hmmm... there are a claw's damage's enhancer in the book "Savage Species" (3.0). These are... a magical weapon. I have encountered more lagoons in the last 2 weeks than before. $&·%&/··%&
skywyze 02-14-07, 04:00 PM	I fail to see how lagoons are relevant to the topic at hand, however, the ability to improve all your damage - for the entire day - with a first level power seems good enough reason to use it to me. The power is already borderline broken. "You call forth the aggressive nature of the beast inherent in yourself, psionically transforming your hands into deadly claws." I would consider it far less of a stretch of the imagination to say that the power doesn't work for half-dragons AT ALL. After all, the power says it transforms your hands. If you don't have hands, then what does it do? Take your overpowered, unbalanced power, use it as intended and be happy with it. If you want to make it even more overpowered, go ahead and ask your DM. But don't put words that aren't there into the description of the power just to make your PC more munchkinny. There are plenty of ridiculously broken builds on these boards as is.
Excrotor 02-15-07, 08:51 PM	"lagoon" was a literal traduction from my own language. It was about the ausence of rules about the matter. It sounds like overpowered because being a lvl1 power it gives a lvl1 character 2 attacks, it grows with you and it is a very long duration spell, but it is not so overpowered. "You call forth the aggressive nature of the beast inherent in yourself, psionically transforming your hands into deadly claws." I would consider it far less of a stretch of the imagination to say that the power doesn't work for half-dragons AT ALL. After all, the power says it transforms your hands. If you don't have hands, then what does it do? Stop deceiting. Nor the power says nothing about that limitation, nor the power says nothing about creatures which have claws already nor half-dragons description says nothing about having or not hands (and I just think that they can pickup and handle things, so they have hands). And please do not use "narrative details" and a prejudices to invent rules, I have seen very poor situations caused by this type of behavior and it only flavors arguments in the middle or after the game. This is not an old-fashioned-and-poor-"not for you"-rules-from-ad&d-or-older-game-system topic. Being a half dragon is a PRIVILEGE that you are paying with a +3 level adjustment. You are arguing about being a overpowered power, but you do not hesitate to underpower a buyed benefit like it is a leveled-adjusted race. It is contradictory. I like this game because it is less or more balanced and have none or very few unfair rules (like "you are a halfling so your max mage level is 9 "(old ad&d rules) ). If I have a 3 level adjustment race, I want to have al logicals advantages and not more disadvantages. Just calculate and compare the max. dmg of a 19 lvl psionic and a 16 lvl half-dragon psionic. The halfdragon have natural claws attacks, so it is of common sense that the power grants a bit more dmg that a human could have at the same level of the power, just because it have better material to start from. Hmmm... let me be some more specific about 'overpowered': A level 9 human fighter / 1 barbarian / 10 frenzied berseker. 34 strengh (base 18 + 5 (level 4, 8, etc.) + 5 inherent + 6 magic). Focus. Greatsword +5. Frenzied: +10 strengh. Base frenzied attack bonus = +43 / +38 / +33 / +28. Base frenzied damage = 2d6 + 24 (+2 by improved weapon specialization). The warrior wants to use the supreme power attack -5, so he have: +38/+33/+28/+23 2d6 + 44 dmg And the weapon could have more magical bonuses (like the +5d6 elemental dmg combo), and the warrior could have more feats, and this warrior is unkillable by a lot of rounds (by example: 15 rounds, and yes, it is posible, just read the rules carefully). I have just give you a "fair", "balanced", and "not-overpowered" normal build from 3.5. The warrior of the example have just use his gold, and his weapon cannot be dissipated and counts to bypass damage resistances. And he have better attack base and more base attacks. How could have I thinked about being fair playing a half-dragon with an incremented claw damage??? Call the inquisitors because I am cheesy!!!!!! Maybe then I will need to wait until have 20 lvls with the half dragon (being epic because 20 + 3 = 23) to use the claw of the beast power because with less level the power is underpowered to the actual challenge rating of the game. Or maybe to use only if I have my equiped robbed, lost or destroyed. Lets think about some other cases: I am a colossal dragon with a +5 +1d6 cold +1d6 fire +1d6 acid +1d6 sonic +1d6 electricity more-than-colossal greatsword. I am a colossal dragon, I am a psi, and I use claws of the beast. Or at least to use a claw base damage enhancer. I am a GIANT and I use claws of the beast. There are some big holes in the rules... but it is normal because the creators of the books have very little time to test their creations nor to think about all combinations. And you must take into account that psionics is not only to players, you could have a psionic npc monster, so it could have been said in the rules "it does not funtions if you have already natural claws" or "it stacks with your claws using this scheme [formulae in a table]" or "you just pick the better one from your natural attack or the power's claw damage". As Simple As That! And what is about the improved natural weapon's damage feat? LOL I am not arguing with you, so do not take this personally. I am playing with a group of friends. If they thinks like me, then no problem. If all we are wrong, we will see this with the game experience and then we will rebalance until it is more fair between players. If a rule is no of our likeness, we change it and there is no problem. If the monsters are very easy, we endure them... etc. I am waiting for a official errata or article about the matter because I would like to know about the point-of-view of the creators/designers of the game or maybe a inteligent response (aporting premises) from an experienced player/dm who have think in this matter in a openminded fashion.
Tempest Stormwind 02-15-07, 08:58 PM	All right, here's the logic. The power says you grow claws that deal X damage. That is all. If you have no claws, you grow claws that deal X damage. If you have claws that deal Y damage.... you grow claws that deal X damage. If you want to attack with the claws of the beast, you're also bound by that "if you attack with the claws, you cannot make other attacks" clause -- which prevents you from using both sets of claws. You are making up rules that do not exist if you have them stack with pre-existing claws. What you are looking for is more power for your cost -- if that was what you wanted, you could have played something other than a half-dragon (say, a dragonborn [whatever your other half is] from Races of the Dragon.
Excrotor 02-15-07, 09:39 PM	"Your claws are natural weapons, so you are considered armed when attacking with them, and they can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons (such as the magic fang spell)." Hmmm... interesting clause... (but not directly related to this topic) What you are looking for is more power for your cost -- if that was what you wanted, you could have played something other than a half-dragon (say, a dragonborn [whatever your other half is] from Races of the Dragon. Hmm, I have just read it. It have a better breath weapon (more uses/day) but I am exploring half-dragon. Maybe I could have create a half-dragon rogue. Much less thinking ;)
skywyze 02-15-07, 10:34 PM	"Your claws are natural weapons, so you are considered armed when attacking with them, and they can be affected by powers, spells, and effects that enhance or improve natural weapons (such as the magic fang spell)." Hmmm... interesting clause... (but not directly related to this topic) Yeah, just too bad it Claws of the Beast doesn't affect existing natural attacks in any way, shape or form. It just adds new ones. But being able to get more damage per unarmed attack all day long than a 20th level monk at level 15 with a first level power seems unbalanced enough to make it worth the cost to me. I played an Elan Psychic Warrior who specialized the crap out of claws and there are still a ton of things you can do to increase your damage with them, you don't have to bend the rules this way to do so. Example: Get an item of constant effect Enlarge Person. Or better, use Expansion. Or even better than that - get an item of Giant Size as per the Shugenja spell and see if your DM will let you boost the caster level to 17. Voila, you're now colossal and have claws to match. Get Improved Natural Attack (Claws) (with DM permission, but that's not too far of a stretch imo). Get Dragon Magazine #313 and get a Fanged Ring. Play a half Fang Dragon to trade in your breath weapon for more claw damage. There's tons of things you can do that ARE covered by the rules. I'd use those first, and then when you have all of those covered, THEN you can start rules lawyering and bending the rules to your favor. Not that you'll need it since you'll be turning everything you attack into chunks of meat. :evillaugh
AntiDjinn 02-15-07, 11:31 PM	This is really simple unless you choose to make it hard. Read the power: It does exactly what it says it does. It gives you claws for the duration, it does not improve on existing claws and does not, therefore, stack with the damage of existing claws. If you want something that boosts the damage of your existing claws then look to spells like Magic Fang or use a power such as Expansion (that does increase the size of your existing claws). If you want to make a table rule that Claws of the Beast stacks with existing claws then feel free to do so, but it is not supported by the text of the power. Be aware that if you allow it to stack then your players will want to know if they can manifest it twice and expect it to stack; one manifestation gives you claws which now exist, a second to improve on your existing claws. If you answer No then you are going to need a good reason why Claws of the Beast stacks with claws of the half-dragon and not with Claws of the Beast.
Tinari 02-21-07, 09:03 AM	Yeah, just too bad it Claws of the Beast doesn't affect existing natural attacks in any way, shape or form. It just adds new ones. But being able to get more damage per unarmed attack all day long than a 20th level monk at level 15 with a first level power seems unbalanced enough to make it worth the cost to me Monk, 2D6 at 15, 2D8 till 20th, at which they hit 2D10. Three attacks at 16, not counting flurries. Claws of the beast, a first level power that you have to expend a FOURTH level worth of power points to get 2D6, a SIXTH level power worth to get 3D6 and to exceed a monk, an EIGHT level worth of power to get 4D6. Also, you get two attacks. Period. So at it's max, 5D6 damage with each claw, costing you a TENTH level worth of power to manifest you can do more damage than a monk per hit, sure. That's 10D6. A monk can naturally throw three attacks by that time at 2D10 per shot, and can flurry to get five attacks. That's 10D10. If the claws of beast person adds 15 damage per attack, that's 10D6+30 damage with two hits, for the cost of one tenth level power that lasts all day. The monk person if they add 10 damage per attack does a nifty 10D10+50 damage with five hits, for the cost of... being a monk, I guess. Seriously, a first level power cost 1PP. If you spend 1PP on claws of the beast, you get two attacks at 1D6 damage. Not really worth it. You spend the max you can, which at it's highest, is a TENTH level of power.
skywyze 02-21-07, 11:41 AM	You're missing the point - nobody should be doing more unarmed damage than somebody who's spent 20 levels doing nothing BUT working on their unarmed damage. I've run the numbers too, and with all the tricks a PsyWar can pull, the monk doesn't stand a chance unless they're in some kind of antimagic field. The original question was whether Claws of the Beast can change and improve your pre-existing natural weapons. By the rules as written and as perceived by most, no it cannot. You could argue that it's unbalanced in favor of a monk, but for a slew of reasons, you'd be wrong, most importantly because of a PsyWar's access to Metamorphosis through EK. To be perfectly honest, considering CotB lasts all day long, I think it ought to be doing a helluva lot less damage than it does. If anything, it's broken already. And while changing the rules to make it twice as powerful is fine and dandy, don't pretend the rules are that way already. They're exceptionally clear on the topic. If you want to change the rules go ahead. Just remember to ask your DM before you do.
Tinari 02-21-07, 02:19 PM	But that's just the thing. They're NOT doing more damage than a monk in unarmed combat. They're simply doing more damage per successful hit. Monks have more of them, base speaking. Yes, a Psywarrior CAN pull more damage. Psywarrior is considered a very powerful base class, and I have heard (but have trouble fathoming at the time, given that I am not a guru, or even exceptionally experienced) that monks aren't a great base class. That aside, I agree that claws is a powerful power. In my campaign, I haven't seen it break anything. Having it stack with natural weapons doesn't seem like a bad idea in my book since most ways to get natural weapons involves LA. The part where things start getting iffy to me is when you start using the feats that up the damage of your natural weapons, then the feat that treats your natural weapons as one size catagory larger to boot. Claws by itself, no biggy. Claws with other stuff? No. My houserule is that you can't get a feat from temporary effects, thus claws won't qualify you for improved natural weapon. But that is a houserule only and outside of this discussion. :) Man, that's a long post for me to say "I agree with you that it's powerful, but by itself, not as game breaking as you make it sound."
InkBlot 02-21-07, 04:15 PM	You're missing the point - nobody should be doing more unarmed damage than somebody who's spent 20 levels doing nothing BUT working on their unarmed damage. A 20th level Monk hasn't spent 20 levels doing nothing but working on her unarmed damage. A 20th level Monk has spent 20 levels working to achieve harmony in her mind, body, and soul so that she can achieve a higher state of being. Being able to punch through steel is just a byproduct of that. A 20th level Fighter can have an unarmed strike as damaging as a Monk. Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Power Attack, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Grapple, Improved Critical, and Stunning Fist. Power attacking for 5 (to bring the attack bonus in line with a monk's) yields an average of 11 damage per strike, over 7 attacks. However, both the monk and the fighter would do much better with the magic weapons they should be able to afford by that level.
Excrotor 02-27-07, 08:31 AM	However, both the monk and the fighter would do much better with the magic weapons they should be able to afford by that level. I see a big difference between a monk and a CotB power than the monk can use magical weapons to enhance her/him dmg ant the CotB power's user cannot. From a kama up to a Gauntlet. (Imagine 2d10+ 5 vorpal keen gaunlet powering natural attacks from the monk or maybe a 2d10 + 5 + 1d6 fire + 1d6 acid... ;) ) (see table 7-12: Uncommon Weapons, page 222 of Dungeon Master's Guide 3.5). A CotB could use magic fang to have the +5, but no to gain the extra magical effects like vorpal or flame. And the monk have more attacks, as have it been said. (double?) My houserule is that you can't get a feat from temporary effects, thus claws won't qualify you for improved natural weapon. But that is a houserule only and outside of this discussion. Have you thinked about "wild shape" skill? Man, that's a long post for me to say "I agree with you that it's powerful, but by itself, not as game breaking as you make it sound." Have a bigger dice (d4 to d6, d6 to d8) is the same that to give a +1 to dmg aprox. 1 more d6 is like +2-3. Not so overpowering to have a +1 or +2 or +3 in your only 2 attacks of the round. If you want to make a table rule that Claws of the Beast stacks with existing claws then feel free to do so, but it is not supported by the text of the power. Be aware that if you allow it to stack then your players will want to know if they can manifest it twice and expect it to stack; one manifestation gives you claws which now exist, a second to improve on your existing claws. If you answer No then you are going to need a good reason why Claws of the Beast stacks with claws of the half-dragon and not with Claws of the Beast. Simply: A boost from the same source doesn't stack. Basic rules. Are you forgotting about the level adjusment of 'monsters' with natural attacks?
skywyze 02-27-07, 08:37 AM	We're not forgetting about anything. You asked us a question, we answered it. You can take the answer and accept it or you can change things around to fit your desires. As for the LA, it has nothing to do with powers. Does a drow wizard lose his LA just because he can now cast Darkness without using his drow powers? Does a pixie sorcerer who can cast Greater Invisibility lose her LA because she has a different way of accessing the same power? No. As for the natural claws, they'll be very useful at higher levels when you're in anti-magic fields, naked or all your equipment has been stolen. They're by no means useless.
Thomar_of_Uointer 02-27-07, 01:56 PM	The claws of the beast power doesn't stack with existing claws. However, you do get to use your existing claws to save yourself power points! Many psychic warrior abilities work well with natural attacks, and the psychic warrior's biggest weakness is stamina and the time necessary for buffing. Also, Excrotor, I do agree, you can take Weapon Focus (claw), Improved Critical (claw), and Improved Natural Weapon (claw).