Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hanuman47 07-16-07, 06:18 PM	I've looked through various threads and the FAQ here, but I'm still not quite grasping the utility of the wilder's wild surge ability. Does it apply to any augmentable power? I.E., if I'm a level one wilder and have the energy ray power, with wild surge I can put out a 2d6 energy ray but still only spend one power point, correct (and yes, have the chance of psychic enervation)? Can the wild surge be used to save PP if manifesting at less than full level? For example, say I'm a level 3 wilder with energy ray. Can I do all of the following: 1d6, 1 PP 2d6, 2 PP or 1 PP + wild surge 3d6, 3 PP or 2 PP + wild surge 4d6, 3 PP + wild surge. Sorry if this sort of question has been asked before, but I'm really trying to understand this ability. I've got a character that I want to build as a wilder for flavor/role-playing reasons, so I want to make sure I can utilize his main class feature correctly.
Tempest Stormwind 07-16-07, 07:03 PM	I've looked through various threads and the FAQ here, but I'm still not quite grasping the utility of the wilder's wild surge ability. Does it apply to any augmentable power? I.E., if I'm a level one wilder and have the energy ray power, with wild surge I can put out a 2d6 energy ray but still only spend one power point, correct (and yes, have the chance of psychic enervation)? Can the wild surge be used to save PP if manifesting at less than full level? For example, say I'm a level 3 wilder with energy ray. Can I do all of the following: 1d6, 1 PP 2d6, 2 PP or 1 PP + wild surge 3d6, 3 PP or 2 PP + wild surge 4d6, 3 PP + wild surge. Sorry if this sort of question has been asked before, but I'm really trying to understand this ability. I've got a character that I want to build as a wilder for flavor/role-playing reasons, so I want to make sure I can utilize his main class feature correctly. Wild Surge boosts your ML and provides "free" power points for that augmentation. A 3rd level wilder (ML 3, Wild Surge +2) could do all of the following with Crystal Shard (used because energy ray has all those +/- to their damage dice, but it's essentially the same): 1d6 / 1pp 2d6 / 1pp+surge1 or 2pp 3d6 / 1pp+surge2 or 2pp+surge1 or 3pp 4d6 / 2pp+surge2 or 3pp+surge1 5d6 / 3pp + surge2 I should also note that my current character is fluffwise a wilder, but mechanically is a psion with Overchannel. (I saw her as smart, but not especially charismatic, so I went with psion and just flavored it as a wild talent that she's learned to control reasonably well.)
Hanuman47 07-17-07, 12:08 PM	Thanks for the help. Is there somewhere that it is explicitly stated that wild surge can substitute for power points when manifesting at less than full level? I can't find any official documentation of this and the way the ability is worded in the SRD it seems to imply that you only sub for power points if you're manifesting at beyond your normal ability. Not doubting you, but I just want official word in case my DM asks.
Tempest Stormwind 07-17-07, 12:42 PM	Thanks for the help. Is there somewhere that it is explicitly stated that wild surge can substitute for power points when manifesting at less than full level? I can't find any official documentation of this and the way the ability is worded in the SRD it seems to imply that you only sub for power points if you're manifesting at beyond your normal ability. Not doubting you, but I just want official word in case my DM asks. I can't access the SRD site I use at work, but the line is "in all cases, the wild surge provides the extra power points for the increased manifester level" or something like that. You increase your ML by 2 and get 2 "free" power points; what you do with the rest of your ML is up to you.
Hanuman47 07-17-07, 01:27 PM	Wild Surge (Su) A wilder can let her passion and emotion rise to the surface in a wild surge when she manifests a power. During a wild surge, a wilder gains phenomenal psionic strength, but may harm herself by the reckless use of her power (see Psychic Enervation, below). A wilder can choose to invoke a wild surge whenever she manifests a power. When she does so, she gains +1 to her manifester level with that manifestation of the power. The manifester level boost gives her the ability to augment her powers to a higher degree than she otherwise could; however, she pays no extra power point for this wild surge. Instead, the additional 1 power point that would normally be required to augment the power is effectively supplied by the wild surge. Level-dependent power effects are also improved, depending on the power a wilder manifests with her wild surge. This improvement in manifester level does not grant her any other benefits (psicrystal abilities do not advance, she does not gain higher-level class abilities, and so on). She cannot use the Overchannel psionic feat and invoke her wild surge at the same time. At 3rd level, a wilder can choose to boost her manifester level by two instead of one. At 7th level, she can boost her manifester level by up to three; at 11th level, by up to four; at 15th level, by up to five; and at 19th level, by up to six. In all cases, the wild surge effectively pays the extra power point cost that is normally required to augment the power; only the unaugmented power point cost is subtracted from the wilder’s power point reserve. Emphasis mine on the last phrase. This to me seems to say that you only get the extra power points if you're actually operating at above normal level. But does that mean that you only pay the base cost and wild surge pays for all augmentation (up to manifester level + wild surge)? The original example for Wild Surge +1 seems to say no, but that final phrase seems to state the opposite. In any case, I don't see anything that implies you get free power points if not augmenting to less than (manifester level = class level + wild surge). But I have seen several people on these boards stating that that is the case, so I'm desperately trying to figure out how 1) I'm misreading the SRD or 2) if there is an official errata or clarification somewhere that states this. Please, someone help me. I am becoming more and more confused the longer I look at this.
Tempest Stormwind 07-17-07, 01:32 PM	That last line is somewhat apocryphal, but it works if you consider the "augment" it refers to as the free augment from Wild Surge. Thus, a Wilder 3 surging+2 an energy ray for 3d6 overall works like this: 1(unaugmented by wild surge) +2 (wild surge) => 3d6 damage. 1pp deducted from reserve.
Hanuman47 07-17-07, 01:44 PM	What do you mean by "apocryphal?" The term is normally defined as "of doubtful authorship or authenticity." I don't see how that applies here - that is a direct quote from the SRD. I'm not trying to be a jerk - I'm just really, really confused about this issue and don't understand what you mean. I fully understand that if augmenting to (class level + wild surge) points that the wild surge pays for all but (class level) points. What I'm missing is where it says that you can get those points if you are not augmenting beyond your normal manifester level. I've read it twenty times and just don't see at all how it can be interpreted that way. How are you getting this information? Is there another source that makes it explicit?
Tempest Stormwind 07-17-07, 01:52 PM	OK, but I am still not seeing where it says that you can get free points for anything except the extra power points beyond what you would normally be able to spend when augmenting. You manifest the power augmented as you will. It's then further augmented by Wild Surge, which pays for itself.
Hanuman47 07-17-07, 01:59 PM	I reiterated my question above, please see rephrasing.
Lycanthromancer 07-17-07, 04:56 PM	You might be overthinking this a bit. Perhaps you should think of it as A.) raising your manifester level (and everything that implies), and B.) granting you bonus power points for that manifestation that you can use however you want for spending on that power. B includes augmenting or even just manifesting it at base cost. So long as you spend 1 power point from your pp reserve, you can use wild surge to cover the rest (though you might even be able to do a +1 surge to pay for, say, call to mind, despite being a 1st level power and being unaugmentable). That's how I understand it, anyway, and generally the simplest interpretation (that isn't obviously broken) is the best way to go.
Hanuman47 07-17-07, 05:17 PM	How do you get that from the description of wild surge? Look at the second paragraph. It makes it pretty clear that the primary effect of wild surge is adding to your manifester level and the ancillary effect is that if you choose to augment to a cost of (class level + wild surge), wild surge will pay the extra points. I'm sorry if I seem stupid on this point, but I can find no phrase or sentence in there that says anything about wild surge providing bonus points that can be used to pay anything except the augmentation cost. Can you quote me the specific phrase that says otherwise? Or is there an official clarification in some other source? From reading the second and last paragraphs, it appears that wild surge provides points only for one of two things: either the cost of the "extra" augmentation beyond your normal manifester level (implied in the second paragraph) or the full cost of augmentation (implied by the last paragraph). It seems to me that if wild surge were intended to work the way you both contend, it would have been phrased something like "add +1 to your effective manifester level and reduce the cost of manifesting the power by one," which would be a lot more clear and to the point.
Lycanthromancer 07-17-07, 05:25 PM	Really, it depends entirely on how you define 'augment.' Is it 'augment' in the sense that we generally use it (which it likely is, more's the pity) where additional power points are grafted on to the base cost, or is it 'augment' as in, "wild surge is augmenting your ability to manifest powers by allowing you to spend fewer power points." You're likely right on this. Of course, I never play wilders and think they're a waste of time. If I'm going to play a manifester, it's going to be one that's actually useful as it goes up in level, rather than approaching a 100% enervated state. I knew there was more than one reason why I hated wilders.
Hanuman47 07-17-07, 05:46 PM	Augment has a very specific in-game definition, the first one you cite. In any case, I just stumbled across something that helps clarify this a bit. I found the Wilder excerpt in the preview for Expanded Psionics Handbook which is presumably the same text as in the book (don't have it with me, so I can't check for sure). The text is the same as the SRD, but after the sentence not using Overchannel and wild surge at the same time, it has this additional paragraph: For example, Leila is a 3rd-level wilder who knows the power mind thrust. She can normally spend 3 power points to deal 3d10 damage with this power. She invokes her wild surge, spending 3 power points to instead deal 4d10 damage with this manifestation of her mind thrust. That pretty clearly dispells my notion that wild surge could pay for all augmentation. That still leaves open the question of whether Leila could deal 3d10 damage and spend only 2 power points, but I'm still not seeing anything that implies that that is the case. Of course, the example above is also confusing because at level 3 Leila could wild surge for +2, so why isn't she doing 5d10 for 3 power points? I'm disappointed that wild surge doesn't work the way I had hoped. It would have made it seem worthwhile to play a wilder and would make the dire penalties of enervation make a bit more sense. Now I'm having a hard time figuring out why anyone would play one (but that is another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=886004) entirely).
Hanuman47 07-18-07, 11:20 AM	I went ahead and wrote to Customer Service. Here was the unsurprising reply. Subject --------------------------------------------------------------- Need Help Understanding Wild Surge class ability. Discussion Thread --------------------------------------------------------------- Response (Support Agent) - 07/18/2007 07:48 AM The Wild Surge only pays for the augmentation that is added when the manifester level is increased. You would pay 3pp and then the Wild Surge would take care of the 2pp to aug to 5th level value. If you only do 3d6 in this manner, you would still have to pay the 3pp as you are not augmenting it above your level. Good Gaming! Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast So, as I came to suspect, wild surge cannot pay for anything except the extra cost of augment to above your usual level. Case closed.
Lycanthromancer 07-19-07, 04:10 PM	Ah, but you can always choose to manifest a power UNDER your actual manifester level. This lowers your manifester level cap, and decreases the number of power points you can spend on it. This does, however, reduce your overall effect, and you can't manifest at full strength. So, with this in mind, you CAN do that, CustServe be damned. (They rarely get the right answer more than 50% of the time anyway.)