Post/Author/DateTime	Post
McPoyo 08-22-07, 11:11 AM	Since this is going to come up in one of my campaigns at some point in the near future, I wanted to see what everyone else's take on something is. After undergoing their transformation to Elan, do they retain their reproductive organs, even though they no longer biologically reproduce? If they do retain them, are they infertile? Their entry says they only reproduce by explicit consent, but I took that to mean "create another Elan, through undergoing the transformation", not "Create an offspring biologically". The racial entry isn't all that specific on it, and there is a player (who isn't playing the Elan), who had some questions on it, and I wanted them answered for myself before letting that other player know. Also, if the player of the Elan in my campaign wants to chime in on this one, feel free, since I know you troll this subforum quite a bit.
InkBlot 08-22-07, 11:25 AM	Troll? I assume you mean trawl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawl). Trolling is picking fights. Trawling is hanging around and trying to find something interesting. I would just let the player decide. It's an intimate detail of his character. He should get to decide on this, just like he can decide on his character's hair colour or height. Unless your game is going to feature sex as a major plot point, this shouldn't be an issue. edit: As for the "can an elan reproduce" thing; no. They can't. Even if they could have children, the child would not be an elan, because there's only one way to create an elan and it ain't natural. Also keep in mind that elan is actually an english word, albeit an obscure one. It means "full of life."
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 11:26 AM	This is up to the DM to decide. Popular theories include: 1) Yes, but nonfunctional (i.e. externally human, internally aberration) 2) Yes, but interbreeding treats them as human, not elan 3) No, and that's just the start of their oddities
InkBlot 08-22-07, 11:29 AM	This is up to the DM to decide. McPoyo is the DM.
McPoyo 08-22-07, 11:35 AM	I was honestly attempting to decide between option 2 and option 3 that Tempest posted, and was kind of curious as to what everyone else's take on it was, in case something I hadn't thought of was mentioned. Also, Inkblot, he picks fights :P Usually to get someone else with more knowledge into the thread, but he does it.
Tempest Stormwind 08-22-07, 11:56 AM	McPoyo is the DM. I'm aware of that; I phrased my answer that way because "it's up to you to decide" is more ambiguous. Personally, I run 1. Makes elans all the creepier ("...You should be dead. Why isn't your heart beating?" "Because it's not in my chest, doctor.").
Ryuu_Tenshi 08-22-07, 12:02 PM	Warning: possibly awkward? The usual take that I've seen is that yes, they retain their reproductive organs, but they're infertile (and the inner workings aren't the same anyway) Internally I tend to go with whole Aberration thing, since I like the idea that they're fundamentally inhuman now (-2 CHA... possibly the ONLY CHA penalty I've EVER seen that <i>made sense</i>) *e* ... again, Tempest says it bettar.
Todd 08-22-07, 12:21 PM	This is just my take ... Elan are like a type of psionic undead. They must die as a part of becoming an Elan ... but instead of resurrecting them with positive energy or reanimating them as true undead with negative energy, the process of creating an Elan restarts things using psionic energy. The spirit is tied back to the body, but not fully, and mental energy is the only thing that keeps them running. Every night when they meditate “healing the hurts of the day, and restoring animation and resiliency to her tissues” (that's a quote from the XPH by the way) they are manually doing via psi energy what a normal living body would do via ordinary biological processes. This is why the have aging penalties but no maximum age limit. They can repair damage and imitate true life, but not with 100% success. Over time their oversights and errors add up and the body looses a bit. As a mental spirit inside a body they are technically “alive” but not in the normal sense (hence being an aberration) and many things that worked before they became Elan now only operate when powered by the mind ... and to me this includes reproduction. IMHO Elan can reproduce with members of their former species, but it’s not really a spontaneous process at all. It’s yet another way that will make normal folks think that the Elan is a bit odd. I also think that the Elan hierarchy would frown on physical reproduction.
Bukowski 08-22-07, 12:30 PM	There is a rather good 3rd party product detailing the Elan race that shouldn't be too hard to find.
AntiDjinn 08-22-07, 07:48 PM	I go with option #1. Elan are aberrations, they are not even of the same "kind" as humans. They are outside of the balance of nature. The exterior may be similar, and they may be able to have recreational sex, but reproduce only by the Culler's process. Sure, you might allow for them to have human children, but why would they want to? The biological imperative for reproduction has been removed. You reproduce to continue your bloodline (to get your genes into the next generation). But as a true immortal you will carry your own lineage into the future. Social reasons for having kids include building a community (more people in your clan = more hands to gather food and water and defend the home) and having someone to care for you in your old age. But elan don't need to eat or drink, they can defend themselves well with their racial specials, and if they had mortal children they would almost certainly wind up taking care of those offspring in their old age. Any human child an elan has will grow old and die as little more than a footnote in his life. Consider also what your character did to become a first level elan: He gave up everything. His former race, class, character levels, intrinsic gains to stats, his wealth and worldly possessions (starts with first level wealth by class), all of it, in exchange for immortality. Did your character seriously do this because he wanted to settle down and raise a brood? I would hope to have grander plans for my immortality. Yes, for male elan it would be possible to father children and simply walk away (maybe never even knowing about them) but do female elan want to carry a pregnancy for months only to give birth to a child with a life-span like a mayfly? If you are imagining elan can have human children, then in most cases it would probably be an unanticipated result of recreational sex. Note: The above assumes the standard XPH elan. When my group migrates to Eberron (shortly) that might change. Eberron elan are created by a different process and it is less of a rebirth than in involuntary from of Inspiration.
The_Shaman 08-23-07, 06:47 AM	I would probably go with 1 or 2. There is little that details exactly how much they change, but what we know is that they "reproduce" in a non-sexual manner. If the process of becoming an elan does not change the body too much (just, you know, "enough") they may retain their capacity for sex and even interbreeding with humans.
McPoyo 08-23-07, 12:20 PM	AntiDjinn gave the kind of reasoning I was looking for, since I can take that almost verbatim as reasoning if the players ask. Thanks for all the help guys, especially since I hadn't really thought of that angle on it.
Lycanthromancer 08-25-07, 11:30 PM	http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/HaleyElan.jpg
Fafnir 08-26-07, 07:22 AM	Lycanthromancer, I.O.U. One Internet. That was too awesome for words.
Caterpillar 08-26-07, 10:40 AM	Also, Inkblot, he picks fights :P Usually to get someone else with more knowledge into the thread, but he does it. Now now, that was the one time and it was in the Equipment and Combat forum, not this one :b (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=898462) Also, the topic of Elans mating has been covered in another post and you can check it out here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=872057
Ryuoch 08-26-07, 12:14 PM	In response to AntiDjinn (who I respect greatly) why would Elans want a child? Well if they a psionic class (and there is a good chance they are) they could do it for the very experience of raising a child. Every parent I talk to says raising a child is one of the greatest learning experiences they have ever had. So if part of a class seeks out new experience to expand your knowledge and power I could see the thought of raising a child to be appealing. Now if they stick with it that’s another story all together, I never said they'd be good parents. Also while the child might be but a foot note in the life span of the elan that does not mean it will be a foot note in the actual life of the elan.
AntiDjinn 08-26-07, 10:24 PM	In response to AntiDjinn (who I respect greatly) why would Elans want a child? Well if they a psionic class (and there is a good chance they are) they could do it for the very experience of raising a child. Every parent I talk to says raising a child is one of the greatest learning experiences they have ever had. Something they could have more or less gotten out of the way before making the transition to elan. Every elan had a life as a human and could have raised children (who would have bonded better to a parent without a -2 Cha adjustment) if they thought it would teach them something. If you feel ready to make the switch to eternal aberrant elanhood then all your human lessions should already have been learned. In other words, the time to do something about your biological clock is while it is still ticking. Hey, but don't ask me; I'm working on an MS degree after a doctorate.
Ryuu_Tenshi 08-27-07, 11:21 AM	Something they could have more or less gotten out of the way before making the transition to elan. Every elan had a life as a human and could have raised children (who would have bonded better to a parent without a -2 Cha adjustment) if they thought it would teach them something. If you feel ready to make the switch to eternal aberrant elanhood then all your human lessions should already have been learned. In other words, the time to do something about your biological clock is while it is still ticking. Hey, but don't ask me; I'm working on an MS degree after a doctorate. Granted, if you're either an Eberronian Elan or like one of my characters (whose previous self made remarkably poor choices most of the time), you might not have had a choice in the matter, or might have made the choice before you were ready. Even so, I usually just say that they can't breed at all, so...
Millenia 08-27-07, 07:55 PM	Any human child an elan has will grow old and die as little more than a footnote in his life. This is, in my opinion, generally not true. Only someone who takes pride in making lots of children without commitment - or who does not take part in the child's life due to other reasons - would have children as "little more than a footnote". Sure, a hundred years may not be much to any of the biologically immortal/long lived races (that is, everything that isn't an insect or a monstrous humanoid or a human), but that doesn't mean those hundred years won't be special.
InkBlot 08-27-07, 08:46 PM	I don't think you get just how long elans can live. Take the number eight. Now turn it sideways. That's how long they live. After 1,000 years a child may not be a footnote, but what about after 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000 years?
Tempest Stormwind 08-27-07, 09:03 PM	I don't think you get just how long elans can live. Take the number eight. Now turn it sideways. That's how long they live. After 1,000 years a child may not be a footnote, but what about after 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000 years? Correct, but an equally valid philosophy on life is that life is worth living, that every moment is precious, even if that life isn't as a human. This could leave some to pursue immortality -- but even as they trade away their humanity and acquire a bigger sense of things, they may realize that though time is lost to THEM, it is not lost to others. I can definitely see a good-hearted elan being a father (or mother, but I'll use the masculine pronoun here) of millions over time, treasuring the time he has with each child just as one of us would treasure a perfect evening. I know my grandfather, when he was still alive, said that his age gave him the perspective to truly enjoy the sunset, as fleeting as it was (well, he was a hydro worker; it wasn't quite as eloquent but it was just as poignant). I see an elan with a zest for life seeing his children's time on the planet the same way -- doubly so, for in a billion years, he'll be the only one around who remembers them. While an individual human child may not leave a mark on the grander scale of things, that child certainly will leave an impact on the elan parent. I can also see an evil elan fathering (or mothering, again, but I'll stick to the masculine pronoun) dynasties in an attempt to steer society down a particular path, especially if he percieves himself to be superior in some way. This goes double if he's a powerful seer -- go and read the Dune saga to see a *perfect* example of this in action (although there they use gholas (clones) of a different person instead of the seer himself, and the alignment of Leto II is questionable at best, the point holds). However, I doubt an elan with a personality like this would pass the Cullers' tests. This is all moot if the elan cannot reproduce, of course.
Ryuu_Tenshi 08-28-07, 01:05 AM	Correct, but an equally valid philosophy on life is that life is worth living, that every moment is precious, even if that life isn't as a human. This could leave some to pursue immortality -- but even as they trade away their humanity and acquire a bigger sense of things, they may realize that though time is lost to THEM, it is not lost to others. I can definitely see a good-hearted elan being a father (or mother, but I'll use the masculine pronoun here) of millions over time, treasuring the time he has with each child just as one of us would treasure a perfect evening. I know my grandfather, when he was still alive, said that his age gave him the perspective to truly enjoy the sunset, as fleeting as it was (well, he was a hydro worker; it wasn't quite as eloquent but it was just as poignant). I see an elan with a zest for life seeing his children's time on the planet the same way -- doubly so, for in a billion years, he'll be the only one around who remembers them. While an individual human child may not leave a mark on the grander scale of things, that child certainly will leave an impact on the elan parent. I can also see an evil elan fathering (or mothering, again, but I'll stick to the masculine pronoun) dynasties in an attempt to steer society down a particular path, especially if he percieves himself to be superior in some way. This goes double if he's a powerful seer -- go and read the Dune saga to see a *perfect* example of this in action (although there they use gholas (clones) of a different person instead of the seer himself, and the alignment of Leto II is questionable at best, the point holds). However, I doubt an elan with a personality like this would pass the Cullers' tests. This is all moot if the elan cannot reproduce, of course. And now we have a great campaign hook of said elan sending out a summons to his great-great-great-great grandchildren for some Purpose or other. Thing.
Thegans 08-28-07, 01:13 AM	This brings up an interesting question. Why can't the elan just offer its human children its immortallity and find a way to give them back their mortal memories if they are lost?
AntiDjinn 08-28-07, 01:28 AM	A given elan cannot simply offer up immortality or elanhood to others. The process of elan creation is carried out by the Cullers, a group so elite that their specifics have yet to be detailed in any official capacity. For reference, "cull" means "To sort and gather, especially to remove the unfit or infirm." When a rancher sorts through his herd and removes those that lack a desired trait the process is called culling the herd and the ones removed and condemned are called culls. The fact that the only reference to them is as a group implies that it takes more than one to convert a human to elan, or at least that they generally collaborate. Exactly who the cullers are has been left to individual DMs at this point. Given that the rank and file elan have eternity to earn XP and levels, the ones who are so old that they created the entire current generation are bound to be experienced and formidable individuals. At the very least, the cullers will command respect from other elan and as far as non-elan are concerned they are the gatekeepers to immortality. They may just be a political group within the race with no mechanical difference, or there may be a feat or two that lets elan move up to this status, or they may be a racial PrC. Anyone's call because Comp Psi used the pages that could have answered these questions to give us the Divine Mind instead.
Millenia 08-28-07, 01:45 AM	I don't think you get just how long elans can live. Take the number eight. Now turn it sideways. That's how long they live. I know that much. Doesn't mean they will live that long. In a world full of gigantic, fire-breathing lizards, humans the size of buildings, fiends, and celestials, on top of the "mundane" dangers of assassins, thieves, and kings, an elan will be lucky to live longer than two human lifespans. After 1,000 years a child may not be a footnote, but what about after 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000 years? Depends on how much the elan can remember, and how long the elan wishes to make their biography. Correct, but an equally valid philosophy on life is that life is worth living, that every moment is precious, even if that life isn't as a human. This could leave some to pursue immortality -- but even as they trade away their humanity and acquire a bigger sense of things, they may realize that though time is lost to THEM, it is not lost to others. Indeed. And, in addition to the sense of time, the feelings involved in child rearing/romancing could still be the same, depending on the extent that the elan's mind is changed. Although he wasn't an elan, an immortal man named Hob Gadlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hob_Gadling) once said, at the grave of one of his recently deceased loved ones: "I thought we'd have longer. It never gets easier, people you love not being there any more." This brings up an interesting question. Why can't the elan just offer its human children its immortallity and find a way to give them back their mortal memories if they are lost? I think it's possible for an elan to offer its human children immortality, but only to the extent that Illuminati members can offer Illuminati membership to their children: they may take their children who the parents deem worthy, and introduce them to the Cullers/Omniscient Council of Vagueness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.TheOmniscientCouncilOfVagueness) so they could evaluate the child and, hopefully, accept them.
Thegans 08-28-07, 02:48 AM	A given elan cannot simply offer up immortality or elanhood to others. The process of elan creation is carried out by the Cullers, a group so elite that their specifics have yet to be detailed in any official capacity. For reference, "cull" means "To sort and gather, especially to remove the unfit or infirm." When a rancher sorts through his herd and removes those that lack a desired trait the process is called culling the herd and the ones removed and condemned are called culls. The fact that the only reference to them is as a group implies that it takes more than one to convert a human to elan, or at least that they generally collaborate. Exactly who the cullers are has been left to individual DMs at this point. Given that the rank and file elan have eternity to earn XP and levels, the ones who are so old that they created the entire current generation are bound to be experienced and formidable individuals. At the very least, the cullers will command respect from other elan and as far as non-elan are concerned they are the gatekeepers to immortality. They may just be a political group within the race with no mechanical difference, or there may be a feat or two that lets elan move up to this status, or they may be a racial PrC. Anyone's call because Comp Psi used the pages that could have answered these questions to give us the Divine Mind instead. I think it's possible for an elan to offer its human children immortality, but only to the extent that Illuminati members can offer Illuminati membership to their children: they may take their children who the parents deem worthy, and introduce them to the Cullers/Omniscient Council of Vagueness (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.TheOmniscientCouncilOfVagueness) so they could evaluate the child and, hopefully, accept them. This is kind of what I was thinking. An elan having human children and raising them in such a way to attempt to breed people that are worthy of elanhood. Sort of a if were a new species we need to grow and if I passed I should be able to create descendants that I can train to pass.
AntiDjinn 08-28-07, 04:23 AM	This is all moot if the elan cannot reproduce, of course. Even if you don't allow elan to reproduce sexually in their native form, if an individual elan wants offspring then fertility is just a Greater Metamorphosis or Shapechange away. You assume the "kind" of the shape you take, so they can become human again. Also the, uh, "material" that leaves your body does not revert to its regular form (at least for the duration of the power). The offspring won't be half-elan, indeed, they won't be the offspring of the human the elan was (these effects don't allow you to become a unique individual, so you can become a human male, but not the exact human male you were before your transformation). These are high level effects, the event should be rare, but they are well within the reach of an immortal who chooses to put in the effort. It should be about as common as those who have made the transition to Unbodied deciding to have children; why bother to transform then become a soccer mom? It still seems like just the sort of trait the cullers would select against. People with unfinished business, emotional ties to their humanity, or who intend to start the sort of long-term breeding projects that might draw unwanted attention to the elan as a race, should be just the sort of thing that the cullers don't want. Sure, the cullers can make a mistake. Or an elan might have no such intentions at the time of his transformation and then change his mind millennia later. But the selection process should be pretty stringent. The cullers have all the time in the world to make their choices. They will have resources and influence that befits a group that has been operating continuously over a geologic time-span. They also have every reason to choose only those who are both physically and emotionally fit; a mistake will be potentially haunting them for eons.
Millenia 08-28-07, 06:04 AM	It should be about as common as those who have made the transition to Unbodied deciding to have children; why bother to transform then become a soccer mom? Rage bonuses. :P
InkBlot 08-28-07, 08:43 AM	Given enough time, everything will happen. If this hypothetical elan isn't killed, then it will cherish it's children, forget about them, rediscover memories of them, hate them with a burning passion of a million suns, deny they ever existed, seek out all of it's descendants in order to give them lolipops, roll six natural 20's in a row (http://unicornjelly.com/urulesmystories.html), turn evil, turn good, turn undead, sail a boat around Jupiter (the god not the planet), et cetera ad infinitum. That's what I like about elans. They're staring infinity in the face. You could take one from one setting to another and just say he'd been there so long that Greyhawk turned into Eberron. And I think an elan could live for many billions of years, especially if he either doesn't go adventuring, or has just enough adventures to learn psionic teleport (and adapt body would help too). I can also see an evil elan fathering (or mothering, again, but I'll stick to the masculine pronoun) dynasties in an attempt to steer society down a particular path, especially if he percieves himself to be superior in some way. Ra's al Ghul. Now you've convinced me that it may be OK for Elans to be able to sire/birth children in some settings.